International Guild of Knot Tyers Forum

General => Chit Chat => Topic started by: roo on October 23, 2006, 06:40:26 PM

Title: Siberian Hitch
Post by: roo on October 23, 2006, 06:40:26 PM
I don't recall ever coming across a Siberian Hitch, so I'm asking y'all about it on behalf of a gentleman who asked me about it.  I get the impression he may have seen it on a video or TV show.

Apparently, it can apply or hold tension, as when tying a tarp over a load, can be tied one handed, and be released with a single pull of a free end.

Has anyone here seen it?
Title: Re: Siberian Hitch
Post by: Fairlead on October 23, 2006, 09:39:54 PM
Hi Roo,
As with all second hand messages - the facts can get a bit distorted - however, I think this may be the knot depicted in the Ray Mears series of 'bushcraft' programmes on TV (and great they were too!).  Ray uses the "Evenk overhand hitch" as he calls it,  and in one of his books the caption to this knot reads as follows:
"In Siberia, nomadic reindeer-hearders employ quickly-tied release knots to minimise the time their fingers are exposed to the cold.  These knots are very useful".
The result is nothing more than a slipped overhand noose around a vertical post (tree etc).
Ray also uses this knot to secure a ridge-line between trees to support a tarp.

Gordon
Title: Re: Siberian Hitch
Post by: roo on October 23, 2006, 10:06:47 PM
Hi Roo,
As with all second hand messages - the facts can get a bit distorted - however, I think this may be the knot depicted in the Ray Mears series of 'bushcraft' programmes on TV (and great they were too!).  Ray uses the "Evenk overhand hitch" as he calls it,  and in one of his books the caption to this knot reads as follows:
"In Siberia, nomadic reindeer-hearders employ quickly-tied release knots to minimise the time their fingers are exposed to the cold.  These knots are very useful".
The result is nothing more than a slipped overhand noose around a vertical post (tree etc).
Ray also uses this knot to secure a ridge-line between trees to support a tarp.

Gordon

Much obliged.  I'll relay your info.
Title: Re: Siberian Hitch
Post by: Willeke on October 23, 2006, 10:07:45 PM
I think Gordon might well be right on the tv programme it came from, if so I think it might be the same knot as we discused in this topic: http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=424.0

Willeke
Title: Re: Siberian Hitch
Post by: Fairlead on October 31, 2006, 10:46:48 PM
Roo,
Show your friend this URL
http://www.outdooridiots.com/features/200606/pitchingatarp/pitchingatarp4.asp

detailed tying instructions for the Evank (Siberian) hitch

Gordon
Title: Re: Siberian Hitch
Post by: Transminator on June 08, 2010, 12:35:03 PM
A clear video on youtube shows how to tie this Siberian Hitch/Evenk knot:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h4T0IUjsDs8
Title: Re: Siberian Hitch
Post by: roo on June 08, 2010, 03:01:34 PM
A clear video on youtube shows how to tie this Siberian Hitch/Evenk knot:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h4T0IUjsDs8
I don't usually do youtube, but I think the hitch referred to in this old thread can now be found on the web in images.  It appears to be a Halter Hitch with an extra twist of the receiver bight before the tuck of the slip bight into that receiver bight.  It makes me wonder if it's of Siberian origin at all.  It's fairly stable, but not quite as secure and stable as a Slipped Buntline.

Title: Re: Siberian Hitch
Post by: knot4u on June 08, 2010, 05:50:02 PM
Both the Siberian and the slipped buntline are great.  I alternate between the two depending on my mood.

In my experience, a Siberian will not slip when there is tension in the standing end, and the Siberian doesn't even have to be dressed correctly while it prevents slippage.  On the other hand, the slipped buntline does hold tighter than the Siberian once there is no longer tension on the standing end.  This issue is irrelevant for everything I've done so far, and the advantage here may go to the Siberian depending on the application.  I currently have a few trucker's hitches, anchored with Siberian hitches, supporting trees in my backyard.  After many strong winds in all directions, the Siberian hitches are holding stronger than when I tied them.

For me, a Siberian has some advantages over a slipped buntline:

-I can tie a Siberian if the object (e.g., pole) is 20 feet up there and I'm way down here on the ground.  For example, I can tie the Siberian down here and pull the standing end so that the Siberian holds tight against the object.  The Siberian is basically a slip loop around the object.  Some Youtube videos display how this feature works.  On the other hand, in my experience, a slipped buntline needs to be worked with both hands all the way up to the object.  The slipped buntline is basically a slipped clove hitch around the standing end.

-The Siberian is easier to tie, and I can easily tie the Siberian with thick gloves on.
Title: Re: Siberian Hitch
Post by: roo on June 08, 2010, 06:07:40 PM
In my experience, a Siberian will not slip when there is tension in the standing end, and the Siberian doesn't even have to be dressed correctly while it prevents slippage.  However, the slipped buntline does hold tighter than the Siberian once there is no longer tension on the standing end.  This issue is irrelevant for everything I've done so far, and the advantage here may go to the Siberian depending on the application.
Why would the advantage "here" go to the Siberian/Modified Halter if you admit that the Slipped Buntline form is more stable?


Quote
-You can tie a Siberian if the object (e.g., pole) is way up there and you're way down here.  For example, you can tie the Siberian down here and just pull the Siberian up to the object tight because the Siberian is a slip-type knot.  Some Youtube videos display how this feature can work.  In my experience, a slipped buntline needs to be worked with both hands all the way up to the object because it's a clove-type knot.
I don't find this to be an issue.  Perhaps you're making things too tight.

Quote
-The Siberian is easier to tie, and you can easily tie the Siberian with thick gloves on.
I can tie both with gloves on.  While it may be fun to tie the Siberian Hitch or Modified Halter Hitch via the gimmick shown, you'd better learn alternate methods if you're intent on using it often.  There are times when you won't have full and free use of both hands or you may be facing the rope in an unusual position.  Then, the gimmick will fail you.

I would suggest learning various ways of tying the Halter Hitch and then the Modified Halter Hitch to round out your abilities.  I also find that the gimmick method uses more rope than is necessary (not that this necessarily negates its use in all circumstances).
Title: Re: Siberian Hitch
Post by: knot4u on June 08, 2010, 06:15:36 PM
Well, what I said above is my experience with these two hitches (Siberian and slipped buntline), and I use both extensively.  Take it or leave it.  My experience is not inconsistent with what others say about these hitches.  By the way, I edited my post above to be more clear.
Title: Re: Siberian Hitch
Post by: knot4u on June 08, 2010, 06:40:11 PM
In my experience, a Siberian will not slip when there is tension in the standing end, and the Siberian doesn't even have to be dressed correctly while it prevents slippage.  However, the slipped buntline does hold tighter than the Siberian once there is no longer tension on the standing end.  This issue is irrelevant for everything I've done so far, and the advantage here may go to the Siberian depending on the application.
Why would the advantage "here" go to the Siberian/Modified Halter if you admit that the Slipped Buntline form is more stable?

The operative words are "depending on the application."  If you must need the hitch to hold tight once once tension is released from the standing end, then the slipped buntline is the way to go.  If not, then the Siberian may be advantageous.  An example is if you need to move the hitch along the object.  With the Siberian, you would release the tension from the standing end, slightly loosen the Siberian and then move the hitch as desired.  In this situation, the slipped buntline may need to be completely untied, depending on the object and the type of rope used.

Quote
-You can tie a Siberian if the object (e.g., pole) is way up there and you're way down here.  For example, you can tie the Siberian down here and just pull the Siberian up to the object tight because the Siberian is a slip-type knot.  Some Youtube videos display how this feature can work.  In my experience, a slipped buntline needs to be worked with both hands all the way up to the object because it's a clove-type knot.
I don't find this to be an issue.  Perhaps you're making things too tight.

No, I'm not making things too tight.  To clarify, if my object is 30 feet up there, and I'm way down here, then I'll be using a Siberian and not a slipped buntline.

Quote
-The Siberian is easier to tie, and you can easily tie the Siberian with thick gloves on.
I can tie both with gloves on.  While it may be fun to tie the Siberian Hitch or Modified Halter Hitch via the gimmick shown, you'd better learn alternate methods if you're intent on using it often.  There are times when you won't have full and free use of both hands or you may be facing the rope in an unusual position.  Then, the gimmick will fail you.

I would suggest learning various ways of tying the Halter Hitch and then the Modified Halter Hitch to round out your abilities.  I also find that the gimmick method uses more rope than is necessary (not that this necessarily negates its use in all circumstances).

I'm not sure what gimmick you're talking about.  Anyway, for me, a Siberian is easier to tie with gloves on.
Title: Re: Siberian Hitch
Post by: Dan_Lehman on June 08, 2010, 06:44:23 PM
-The Siberian is easier to tie, and I can easily tie the Siberian with thick gloves on.

But why not just tie a Bowline around the line, which is more stable
when slack?  (These are, btw, "running" eye knots, not hitches, strictly put.)
As for a Buntline hitch, that doesn't work so well on relatively wide objects,
nor will is slide into position as easily as a running eye (which won't work
so well on relatively narrow objects ("rings").)

--dl*
====
Title: Re: Siberian Hitch
Post by: roo on June 08, 2010, 06:47:40 PM
  To clarify, if my object is 30 feet up there, and I'm way down here, then I'll be using a Siberian and not a slipped buntline.
I am able to make a Slipped Buntline travel up to the object easily, as long as I don't try to cinch it tight first.

Quote
I'm not sure what gimmick you're talking about.
 
The method shown in the video where you have to make a coil around two fingers first.
Title: Re: Siberian Hitch
Post by: knot4u on June 08, 2010, 06:53:10 PM
-The Siberian is easier to tie, and I can easily tie the Siberian with thick gloves on.

But why not just tie a Bowline around the line, which is more stable
when slack?  (These are, btw, "running" eye knots, not hitches, strictly put.)
As for a Buntline hitch, that doesn't work so well on relatively wide objects,
nor will is slide into position as easily as a running eye (which won't work
so well on relatively narrow objects ("rings").)

--dl*
====

The Siberian is nothing like a bowline.  A Siberian is a hitch that only gets tighter against the object as tension in the standing end increases.  However, once tension is completely released, the grip around the object is not so tight.  For that reason, the Siberian is also different than the slipped buntline.

As I said above, I use both the slipped buntline and the Siberian.  The Siberian sometimes serves my purposes better.  Further, if I had to choose one, then I'll choose the Siberian because the Siberian will do everything the slipped buntline will do for my purposes, except there are some advantages (discussed above) of the Siberian that are more valuable to me.
Title: Re: Siberian Hitch
Post by: roo on June 08, 2010, 06:54:02 PM
-The Siberian is easier to tie, and I can easily tie the Siberian with thick gloves on.

But why not just tie a Bowline around the line, which is more stable
when slack?  
I can imagine that he'll reply that he can't untie the (running) bowline from a distance.  However, it brings to mind a solution using running loops.  Specifically, a loop on the bight is tied on the ground.  Next, one end of the rope is thrown over the branch.  Then, that same end is sent through the loop to make a running loop which will shrink to the branch.  The other end of the rope can then be used to "unshrink" the same running loop.
Title: Re: Siberian Hitch
Post by: knot4u on June 08, 2010, 07:00:55 PM
-The Siberian is easier to tie, and I can easily tie the Siberian with thick gloves on.

But why not just tie a Bowline around the line, which is more stable
when slack?  
I can imagine that he'll reply that he can't untie the (running) bowline from a distance.

Uh, no, a Siberian is nothing like a bowline, as I explained above.
Title: Re: Siberian Hitch
Post by: roo on June 08, 2010, 07:08:46 PM
-The Siberian is easier to tie, and I can easily tie the Siberian with thick gloves on.

But why not just tie a Bowline around the line, which is more stable
when slack?  
I can imagine that he'll reply that he can't untie the (running) bowline from a distance.

Uh, no, a Siberian is nothing like a bowline, as I explained above.

Look up Running Bowline:
http://notableknotindex.webs.com/bowline.html
(bottom of the page)
Title: Re: Siberian Hitch
Post by: knot4u on June 08, 2010, 07:23:39 PM
-The Siberian is easier to tie, and I can easily tie the Siberian with thick gloves on.

But why not just tie a Bowline around the line, which is more stable
when slack?  
I can imagine that he'll reply that he can't untie the (running) bowline from a distance.

Uh, no, a Siberian is nothing like a bowline, as I explained above.

Look up Running Bowline:
http://notableknotindex.webs.com/bowline.html
(bottom of the page)

Well, discussions go more smoothly when we use the correct terminology.  "Bowline" does not equal "running bowline".  Dan, in fact, highlighted "Bowline".

Anyway, I also use the running bowline.  I cannot think of a situation where I would want to use the running bowline to replace the Siberian.  However, the running bowline may be convenient for those who don't want to learn and practice another knot.

Here are the Siberian hitch's advantages over the running bowline:
-Siberian is easier to untie, especially while wearing gloves
-Siberian doesn't completely release grip once standing end looses tension.  The Siberian must be worked loose (with not much effort) for the grip to release.

These may not be advantages for you, but they are for me in some applications.

Keep the questions coming.  I'll keep answering until I get bored.  ;)
Title: Re: Siberian Hitch
Post by: roo on June 08, 2010, 07:41:29 PM
Well, discussions go more smoothly when we use the correct terminology.  "Bowline" does not equal "running bowline".  Dan, in fact, highlighted "Bowline".

A bowline tied around the line is in fact a running bowline, which is what Dan said.  Lets move on.

Quote
-Siberian doesn't completely release grip once standing line loses tension.  The Siberian must be worked loose (with not much effort) for the grip to release.

Under some/many circumstances the Siberian/Modified Halter distorts into a running loop form, and can release grip when the standing line loses tension.

Title: Re: Siberian Hitch
Post by: roo on June 08, 2010, 08:56:35 PM

These may not be advantages for you, but they are for me in some applications.

One thing I like about the Siberian Hitch/Modified Halter Hitch (aside from its security) is that the method(s) of tying prevents the line from the draw loop from getting wrapped around the standing part.   It helps keep things clean, especially when the draw loop line is very long.
Title: Re: Siberian Hitch
Post by: knot4u on June 08, 2010, 09:43:47 PM
-The Siberian is easier to tie, and I can easily tie the Siberian with thick gloves on.

But why not just tie a Bowline around the line, which is more stable
when slack?  (These are, btw, "running" eye knots, not hitches, strictly put.)
As for a Buntline hitch, that doesn't work so well on relatively wide objects,
nor will is slide into position as easily as a running eye (which won't work
so well on relatively narrow objects ("rings").)

--dl*
====

Above, I responded to your post too quickly, sorry.

I just realized that if you make the loop sufficiently big, then you end up with a clove hitch around the object.  That combination (cow/running bowline) is one of my favorite hitches.  I'm officially undecided on whether or not I like this cow/running bowline better than a Siberian or a slipped buntline.  Each knot has its place.  A cow/honda is great too, as discussed here:

http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1860.0

It doesn't much matter to me.  I'll keep learning knots.  I keep all knots of interest in my cell phone, and I practice the knots that seem to be the most practical.  Depending on the situation, I can imagine beforehand which hitch I'd prefer to use.  However, if the chosen hitch ends up being unsatisfactory, then I'll use another hitch in my knot vocabulary.
Title: Re: Siberian Hitch
Post by: Dan_Lehman on June 09, 2010, 04:46:12 AM
The Siberian Hitch in the set of how-to-tie photos showed the knot
to be a running eye; both it and the Bowline can be made snug
around an object, but as noted, it's easier to do with the former.

Making the eye very long ... gets one the Cow not Clove (unless
you know some wizardry beyond my reckoning).

One could also but a bight around the standing line,
lay the end in a bight joining the first one,
and then cast Half-Hitches & a Double turn to form
a Rolling Hitch around these two bights; this surrounding
of the standing line can also be drawn snug (pulling the
appropriate bight farther through the Rolling Hitch).

--dl*
====
Title: Re: Siberian Hitch
Post by: knot4u on June 09, 2010, 05:11:13 AM
I meant cow.

One could also but a bight around the standing line,
lay the end in a bight joining the first one,
and then cast Half-Hitches & a Double turn to form
a Rolling Hitch around these two bights; this surrounding
of the standing line can also be drawn snug (pulling the
appropriate bight farther through the Rolling Hitch).

--dl*
====

I pic will be necessary for me to understand that.
Title: Re: Siberian Hitch
Post by: Transminator on June 09, 2010, 09:06:44 AM
I don't usually do youtube, but I think the hitch referred to in this old thread can now be found on the web in images.

One person learns better from images, others from watching a video. It is just another option of learning, that is why I posted it.

-The Siberian is easier to tie, and I can easily tie the Siberian with thick gloves on.

I agree.

But why not just tie a Bowline around the line, which is more stable
when slack? 
 

It is an option, but the bowline does not grip the line as the the clove hitch does in the buntline
or the slip knot in the siberian.
When the line is slack, the hole thing might just slide down the pole to which it was attached.
If I tighten the bunline hitch or the siberian, it has enough grip on the object to stay in position.

For my part: Since I learned the Siberian and tested it, it has become part of my repertoire (along with the slipped buntline)
because it is easily tied using the "gimmicked" or rather "quick-tie" method and holds satisfactorily. I have yet to see
it fail (though I have not tested it extensively to come to a final conclusion).
I agree with knot4u's analysis, who, IMHO, pointed out the weaknesses and strength of both quite accurately.

I would suggest learning various ways of tying the Halter Hitch and then the Modified Halter Hitch to round out your abilities. 

That is a good general advice for a serious knot tier. Learn all the ways a knot can be tied
(on the bight, with loose end, one handed, behind your back, blindfolded etc.)
so that you are prepared for all circumstances.
Title: Re: Siberian Hitch
Post by: knot4u on June 09, 2010, 05:35:35 PM
I posted a question about the halter hitch and "modified halter hitch" in a new thread:

http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1868.new#new
Title: Re: Siberian Hitch
Post by: roo on June 10, 2010, 06:50:02 AM
I posted a question about the halter hitch and "modified halter hitch" in a new thread:

http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1868.new#new
In that thread, I posted this note that may be of interest to those who are reading about the Siberian Hitch:

"The  buntline's form (slipped or non-slipped) is more stable than the Halter Hitch/Siberian Family..."

Doing some further tests, this stability issue comes up in a specific test.  With small nylon rope and a bat as an anchor, both the Halter Hitch and the related Siberian Hitch would capsize when exposed to cyclical high strain (and relaxation).  The resultant knot form prevented the draw loop from functioning, and therefore slowed release as I had to loosen the now tightened capsized structure.

http://notableknotindex.webs.com/haltersiberian.html