International Guild of Knot Tyers Forum

General => New Knot Investigations => Topic started by: xarax on August 14, 2015, 04:29:16 PM

Title: "Tackled" hitches - a new class of tight hitches.
Post by: xarax on August 14, 2015, 04:29:16 PM
   ( I will post some pictures first, because this Windows 10 / Edge .... and I do not want to lose them, again !
   
   In short, I had arrived at those hitches, by trying to :
   1. improve the angles of the pulling and pulled segments of rope, so the mechanical advantage of the Cow-hitch / Zigzag hitch arrangement of interlinked bights is implemented more efficiently.
   2. decrease the area of contact / friction between the most tensioned segments and the surface of the poll during the ( alternate ) puling of the ends. This way the wraps can be pre-tensioned more easily, therefore more tightly.

   Those hitches are the tightest two-wrap hitches I had ever tied - and one way to know it ( other that the high pitch of the sound the hollow pole makes during tensioning ) is to count the amount of anti-inflammatory pills and pain killers I have to take for my back pain...

   More, shortly...
Title: Re: "Tackled" hitches - a new class of tight hitches.
Post by: xarax on August 14, 2015, 04:30:37 PM
2.
Title: Re: "Tackled" hitches - a new class of tight hitches.
Post by: xarax on August 14, 2015, 04:31:42 PM
   The procedure / tying method is straightforward, and easy : You can tie any of the dozens hitches which can be " tackled " this way, and be transformed into VERY tight hitches, by either of two ways :
   1. Start from a double loop with communicating bights, as shown in the last picture.
   2. Start from any end-of-line loop, of a length, say, the 3/4 ths of the circumference of the pole, roll it around the pole, reeve its ends through the tip of its bight and then take them back, at the nub, and reeve them through it again, to secure them.
   The difficult thing is to find the most simple possible loops, so their nubs would not become very bulky when they will be fed by the two ends which will penetrate them for the second time, but also avoid the too simple loops, so their nubs would not "walk" towards the tips of their eyes. The optimum loop must be slim, but also must be able to remain fixed, and not become elongated and, at the end, cover the whole circumference of the pole.
   ( Of course, the first loop I had tried was the Butterfly loop - but when it was penetrated by its ends, it seemed too "fat" to me... I believe we can find simpler / slimmer solutions )
   The careful reader would notice that the "red" hitch is TIB - this is one more condition I am struggling with right now - besides my back pain.
Title: Re: "Tackled" hitches - a new class of tight hitches.
Post by: xarax on August 14, 2015, 07:51:29 PM
   Ceteris paribus, how tight a hitch is, is revealed by how much it can withstand, or how less it slips, under, a lengthwise pull - because that depends on how oblique the wraps become, so on how less tight, and how efficiently the secure "locks" of the ends do not allow material be fed from the ends into the wraps.
   I have seen that the resistance of the humble Simplest tackled hitch, by being "tackled", becomes remarkable !
   See the attached pictures, where this most elementary hitch shows its abilities. We should not underestimate the potential, into a compound knot or a rope-mechanism, of a properly placed overhand knot.
Title: Re: "Tackled" hitches - a new class of tight hitches.
Post by: xarax on August 14, 2015, 11:20:58 PM
   Eureka ! :)
   ( It was under my nose, but it had a few twists of its own which it seems I had not digested till now. )
   Possibly one of the simplest Tackled hitches, easy to tie and untie, ROCK SOLID, and, last but not least, TIB !
   It is based on nothing else than the " Double Butterfly loop " ( I do not know if this thing exists, and I had no time to look at Ashley, but it is a double TIB loop with the same nub as the Butterfly loop and bend, so I believe it does, and I call it like this. )
   See the attached picture, of the loose knot. Tomorrow, first thing in the morning, IF f I have not died from my back pains, I will take and post pictures of the beauty-and-the-beast at the same time I hold in my hands. 

P.S. Actually, what people call "Double Butterfly loop" does not have communicating bights / eyes. Nevertheless, the nub of this Tackled hitch is identical to the nub of Butterfly bend or loop, except that the penetrating lines are doubled - so I will keep calling it " Butterfly Tackled hitch ".
Title: The Butterfly Tackled hitch - a beasty beauty (1)
Post by: xarax on August 15, 2015, 11:03:39 AM
   Some first pictures of the Butterfly Tackled hitch - the most tight hitch I know, yet TIB, easy to tie and untie, and acceptably complex, for what it is able to accomplish.
 ( I have a gut feeling that I will not find any tighter TIB hitch than that, ever...and since I have already abandoned any further search of bends and double loops ( too easy to tie something "new", that works OK ), and loops ( the Ampersand bowline and the Plait loop are OK ), I wonder what am I going to do from now on - exercises on knotting litter-ature, perhaps ? :) ) 

  A hint to tie it : Anticipate the required length of the loop(s), so you will not run the danger to make the two parts "kiss" each other prematurely,  and tension the nub in a first stage, before you start pulling the ends : this way it will not "walk" ( it will, a little bit, but not much : after a while, it will become stationary, because each of the two interlinked loops will not allow the other to move further ).
  A reminder : in all symmetric two-wrap tight hitches ( as my previous favorite, the Bull Clove hitch ), the final tensioning should better be done alternately : by pulling the one end after the other, and continuing this procedure a few times, until the hitch becomes rock solid. As they are designed to be tensioned by pulling the ends against the pole ( perpendicularly to the surface of the hitched object ), one efficient way to do this is ( provided the height where the object is located permits it ) to use one s hands AND feet, as rowers do... :)  Only beware of your back - because I know one stupid fellow who was not.
Title: Re: "Tackled" hitches - a new class of tight hitches.
Post by: Ruby on August 15, 2015, 01:02:06 PM
seems complicated. double trucker's hitch MA?
Title: Re: "Tackled" hitches - a new class of tight hitches.
Post by: xarax on August 15, 2015, 02:04:36 PM
  On the contrary, it seems a (very) simplified trucker s hitch to me... :)
  One trucker s hitch has two fixed loops, so two trucker s hitches, side-by-side, would have four ! Here, you have ONE.
  Besides, the whole knot/arrangement is TIB. I doubt that you can tie two parallel trucker s hitches, and manage to make the whole arrangement TIB - even if you use, as loops, slipped overhand knots.
   You should "see" the Butterfly nub of the knot, without paying attention to where the "limbs" go and how they are linked to each other. If you isolate the "core" of the 8 "arms" of this octopus :) ( perhaps I should had named it "octopus hitch " ! :) ), you can understand how it works. As I said in a previous post, it is nothing but a fixed loop where the ends are reeved through its eye and then back again through its nub. You can transform almost any fixed loop to its "tackled" version, and then use it as a hitch. Most of them have a tight enough nub, which is able to nip the two penetrating returning ends quite securely - mind you that the tension in each of them is divided by half. Also, the fact that the ends, when they turn around the tip of the loop before they re-enter into the nub, are in contact to the surface of the pole, enhances this security even more. Sometimes I had loosened them from the nub, but the hitch was remaining tensioned, because they were so much squeezed under the tip of the loop and the surface of the pole.
   
   I had also tied some other variations, where there are two individual, not-interlinked loops - but they were more complex, more bulky, and, because they were not equilibrated, they were "locked" at different distances from the tips of the bights - an ugly sight.
   As it happens to all knots, you have to tie it at least 12 times correctly, to appreciate it. Then, you can judge how complex it is, but only then, not at the start, when you only "see" entangled lines ad not the pattern where the logic of the mechanism drives them.
 
Title: Re: "Tackled" hitches - a new class of tight hitches.
Post by: xarax on August 15, 2015, 02:37:21 PM
    What is the "simplest" single loop ? The overhand loop ( ABoK#1009 ). In this sense, the "simplest" Tackled hitch is based on this loop.
   1. Tie an overhand loop.
   2. Reeve its ends through its eye.
   3. Now, reeve them back through its nub. ( Each end can go through many "openings" of the nub, but this is secondary : the nub of this loop is sufficiently tight, and it will secure a penetrating line, independently of the particular path through the nub it will follow. )
   4. You are done ! You have your first Tackled hitch. Now, find something to wrap it around, and then start pulling and pulling the ends, the one after the other... In fact, there is only ONE thing you must remember, and you should never forget : your back !
Title: Re: "Tackled" hitches - a new class of tight hitches.
Post by: Ruby on August 15, 2015, 03:14:26 PM
so you can change any loop knot into a self-lock trucker's hitch...
Title: Re: "Tackled" hitches - a new class of tight hitches.
Post by: xarax on August 15, 2015, 03:50:32 PM
   Do not call anything that uses a mechanical advantage as a " trucker s hitch " ! :) :) The block and tackle simple machine, which is the rope "mechanism" which corresponds to the lever, has been studied by Archimedes and Heron, looong before trucks and drivers ! :)
   You mean, use any loop, and "roll" a rope-made block and tackle simple machine around an object, to make a tight hitch. Indeed you can.
   Now, there are two things you should pay attention to : When we say "any", we do not mean it ! :) In this configuration, first, you need a nub which would not be able to "walk" towards the tip of the eye, when it is dragged by the two lines which form it. This is a requirement an ordinary fixed loop does not have to satisfy - but a loop suitable for a Tackled hitch does. Then, you also need a nub which will not be severely deformed, if/when/while the penetrating ends are pulled against the pole, i.e., in a direction perpendicular to the axis of the loop. This is a more strict condition than one would expected.
   I have not been able to figure out a simpler / slimmer proper nub, which would remain fixed on its position, and not "walk" or rotate around itself, under those circumstances. Perhaps I have missed something... tie and try ! :)
   
Title: Re: "Tackled" hitches - a new class of tight hitches.
Post by: xarax on August 15, 2015, 07:16:13 PM
   Some more pictures ( all day, because of my spinal cord injuries caused by tight-hitching  ! ! :) :), I could nt tie even a f . overhand knot ! So, all that I could do, was to take some pictures of the hitch already tied on the poll... )
Title: Re: "Tackled" hitches - a new class of tight hitches.
Post by: xarax on August 15, 2015, 07:20:18 PM
  From the other side , which is "different" ( it is : one segment is a few mm longer ! :) )
Title: Re: "Tackled" hitches - a new class of tight hitches.
Post by: xarax on August 16, 2015, 10:56:30 AM
   I would like to mention two more things :
   1. When we start from a TIB loop, we end with a TIB hitch - as, perhaps, it should had been expected, from the path we drive the ends of the loop through, first, its own eye and, then, its nub. That means that, if we do NOT insert a TIB loop into our TIB-ness problem, we would not get back a TIB solution - unless we figure out different, more convoluted paths for the ends, and we are lucky.
   2. Those two-wrap hitches are meant to / should be easy to untie, because they may serve as temporary solutions. ( The 3/4 wraps TackleClamp hitch is a more permanent knot ). Therefore, we should use nubs which can be released with easy, even after the hitch has been tensioned as much as those hitches can be tensioned. This is a constrain which reduces the number of possible solutions more than we may think.

   For the record, see the images of the other Butterfly-looking tackled hitch I had mentioned in a previous post. As you can see, it is bulkier than my more recent solution. To refer to the previous paragraphs, it is TIB, just because the ( inverted or not ) Butterfly loop is TIB - BUT it is difficult to untie, because its nub does not present a convenient "handle" which one can grab and manipulate, to loosen some segments. Last but not least, its nub is bulkier : the two lines of the Butterfly loop are no only linked / hooked to each other, but they form (slipped ) overhand knots, while in my more recent solution they only form two interlinked nipping loops - which leads to a simpler and slimmer knot.   

   Am I sure that I had found the simplest/slimmest/more easy to untie solution ? Of course NOT ! :)  The interested reader may try his/hers own hand, and see what can be done. Starting from a fixed single loop, or a double loop with communicating bights, we may arrive to a plethora of Tackled two-wrap hitches - those I has shown should only be considered as the first steps of this journey.
Title: Re: "Tackled" hitches - a new class of tight hitches.
Post by: Ruby on August 17, 2015, 11:33:04 AM
Maybe you can share your TIB method in picture, instead of verbal description.
Title: Re: "Tackled" hitches - a new class of tight hitches.
Post by: xarax on August 17, 2015, 12:04:01 PM
   Was nt the method shown in Reply#4 clear enough ? ( The pictures were not, since I had taken them in the middle of the night, without a flash, but I believe the lack of sharpness plays no role int his case )
   However, generally, I avoid the presentation of particular tying methods, because there is this dangerous infectious DESEASE in the knot tyers community, to confuse a knot with its tying method ! ! Many people seem to be interested not in the nutritional value of the foods / the value of the knots themselves, but only in their cooking RECIPES / their tying methods. Each and every knot can be tied with many different tying methods, and, most importantly, every knot tyer conceive the same knot differently than the others, and may prefer a different tying method, for complex reasons ( having to do with the way different minds "see" 3D shapes ) we can not understand.
   Moreover, I believe that people who do not tie knots by viewing pictures of them, either because they are too lazy to do that, or because they do not want to "lose" their valuable time ( and prefer, instead, to watch another TV rubbish, for example ), should better NOT tie knots ! They should better use fasteners, or other means to join their ropes, because when you tie a knot blindly, without understanding what you do, sooner or later you will make a mistake you may regret : knots are dangerous things, and falsely or improperly tied and dressed knots are even more so !
   I ALWAYS provide pictures of the knots I tie - I am never hiding behind a vague "verbal description", as you say, to "save" my time, as many others do in this Forum ! !
Title: Re: "Tackled" hitches - a new class of tight hitches.
Post by: Tex2 on August 17, 2015, 12:45:22 PM
As usual with hitches there's a risk that people see advantages and trucker's hitches that aren't there, usually by inappropriate geometrical comparison to a trucker's hitch, inappropriate because the geometrical comparison does not extend properly to the circle on which the hitch is tied especially as compared with any other simple hitch of the same number of wraps over which that advantage should be measured. 

I am not for a second saying these are not very good knots, and I do not dispute the qualities xarax mentions. I haven't tried them yet to see (actually I've tried something close enough to the simple one to have a very good guess)

Regarding the "simple" hitch.  The interlocked U turns pull two rope segments (in and out) against two rope segments.  That's an even advantage.  One can say in a sense I think that there is a slight bit of advantage where the rope turns radially outward at the overhand knot, but no more than for many other radially extending hitches where that turn pulls against the tail, like say a timber hitch (as opposed to hitches that like to extend tangentially, like a clove hitch).  I've talked about this kind of pseudo trucker's hitch like tail loops a couple of times before.  They can help to some significant extent with the surging and the use of hands. So the advantage of it is very similar to a two wrap timber hitch  ( ok, the timber loop end might fall apart, but anyway any decent two wrap hitch has twice the grab of a single wrap hitch and this is part of the illusion of the u-turns.  It's not that they don't help, but.. so would continuing around the SAME way. They might help in other ways though like locking and surging.) 

The butterfly thing is interesting in that it appears to leverage four segments (counting ingoing and outgoing) against two.  This is the kind of counting you need to see to have real mechanical advantage.  In this case though, it's not quite so doubled as it appears, because those 4 parts pulling are drawn from two separate ends going in the same direction.  You can pull on both at once in one direction with half of your stength distributed to each!  Again, this is not to say it's a bad knot.  In fact the fact that the tails come out the same way and that one will hold gains while the other is pulled, does mean that the hitch can be fed tension more easily from both of its ends instead of creating one limp end like many hitches, and this does produces a sort of 2x advantage of its own if you can alternate that tension and hold gains as xarax described.  That's a very different kind of "advantage" from a pulley system though.  I agree with xarax that there is nothing trucker's hitch about any of this.

To me, the main purpose of a tight hitch should ideally be to hold in gains from things pulling much harder than my arms, building ever increasing tightness to produce ever increasing resistance to slip along the pole.  Maybe I ask too much.  If I only need tightness that I can create in my hands not to resist things that might then pull harder, then a tight hitch and binder become only barely different ideas, the main issue being the ability to lock in gains enough for me to tie the binder off.  And if I must let it be tightened by the load that is stronger than my hands, then I'm not sure how useful alternating tightening is.   

There is clearly a place for this kind of knot though, indeed on hard smooth poles, where ANY small amount of give-back while tying off a binder  will be too much, or where eventual stretch from the load might loosen a binder on such a hard surface.  The best advantages of the butterfly tackle seem to be for human, spinal supported, levels of forces where it can be conveniently tightened in its best way.
Title: Re: "Tackled" hitches - a new class of tight hitches.
Post by: xarax on August 17, 2015, 01:53:05 PM
...the advantage of it is very similar to a two wrap timber hitch

  Indeed - and to any two-wrap hitch based on the Cow hitch, where the 4 legs of the two interlinked Us are almost parallel to each other - because, regarding mechanical advantages, angles matter ! THAT was the purpose of this series : segments at "right" angles - which here means : parallel segments.

  the illusion of the u-turns.

  There is no "illusion" of U wraps. There is a 2 : 1 mechanical advantage in a properly "tacked" two-wrap hitch, while there can be NO such advantage in ANY one-wrap hitch - simply because the Standing End of a one-wrap hitch can be not pulled tangentially to the surface of the pole. That means that the 4 legs of the two interlinked Us are not parallel during pulling / pre-tensioning ( the Standing End, while it is being pulled against the pole, makes a 90 degrees angle with the other three ), so a great part of the mechanical advantage evaporates.
   Now, one may argue : Why can we not pull the Standing End tangentially to the surface of the pole, i.e., in parallel with the other three legs converging in the same point ? The answer is simple - but it is better if one also gets the "feeling" of it, by actually tying and trying those tight hitches. Because, however tight a "tight hitch" would become ( at the end of the pre-tensioning ), at the beginning, when we start pulling the Standing End, it can not withstand a forced rotation, so it will simply re-adjust itself, it will rotate, and during the most critical stage of the pulling its Standing End would become perpendicular to the surface of the pole, and not tangential to it. Even if the hitch will not be rotated as a whole, its nub will, and this will deform it badly and destroy its locking abilities.
   
   
That's an even advantage.

  It is not - but I am afraid to get it you have to tie and try it first ! :)
  A hint : the segments of ropes work as "springs" : they can be elongated, they can accumulate and they can store tensile forces. This is something one loses when one analyses a block and tackle simple machine, made from ropes with, supposedly, fixed rope lengths. I have seen this effect in action : Hitches like those work much better when they are tied on nylon rope, which is more stretchy.

   
  In this case though, it's not quite so doubled as it appears, because those 4 parts pulling are drawn from two separate ends going in the same direction.

   Noope ! :) When you will tie and try it, you will see another thing that you miss : During the pulling of one end ( remember, you have to pull the ends alternately, so each one of them receives your whole strength ), only three ends are tensioned - the end returning to you becomes slack, because there is so much friction at the contact points of the three interlinked Us.
   So, you pull the one end of "your" U, the other end of this U gets lose, you have two more ends (  of the "other" U pointing towards you ) which assist you ( they never get loose ! ), and the opposite tip of the main U / loop coming towards you with half the speed you pull the one end of "your" U. This would had result in a mechanical advantage of 2:1 - IF you were not helped, during your effort, by the tension of the legs of the "other" U, which do not become loose. It may not be 4:1, because the other U may not support half of the load at all tomes, but it would be close. You have to see those four umbilical segments as four springs, three tensioned one and one non-tensioned.
   Anyway, the talk about mechanical advantages is pointless, and it hides more than it reveals - because of the important factors left unaccounted : the friction at the contact points of the interlinked Us, and the springy nature of the segments of ropes. The important thing is to "see" how those hitches exploit fully the mechanical advantage of the Cow hitch, and are self-locking at the same time.
   In short, there is no hitch that even comes close to what a tackled two-wrap tight hitch can do. The Butterfly Tackled hitch I had presented made the pole scream, literally, like no other hitch I had ever tied. Moreover, it opens up in a fraction of a second, just by pushing the one bight of its nub over the other, and loosening the "lock".
Title: Re: "Tackled" hitches - a new class of tight hitches.
Post by: xarax on August 17, 2015, 02:06:52 PM
   In general, we can not speak about a knot if we have not tied it - and by "tied it", I mean correctly, and a dozen, at least, times ! By just "seeing" the images of a knot one can understand how he can tie it, and get a rough idea about its behaviour, if it is related to something he has already tied in the past. However, when one sees an altogether new knot, like the ones shown in this series, he should not jump into conclusions prematurely.
  I had tied dozens of two-wrap hitches, and I had though I knew how they worked - until there was this bolt out of the blue, the ingenious Alaskan hitch, tied by SquareBanksAlaska, which put me out off my illusion. And, just lhe very last night, the Simplest Locked Cow hitch was also a reminder of the fact that a rope is a "simple" thing which has many degrees of freedom, so, a tangled rope (  = a knot ) can do many more, and different, things than we can ever imagine.
Title: Re: "Tackled" hitches - a new class of tight hitches.
Post by: Tex2 on August 17, 2015, 02:12:31 PM
I do not dispute  that local advantages are likely created by surging (friction loosening one place and tightening another).  These advantages can be important.  In the end they won't result in an overall average tension in the individual wraps  greater than the tension pulled on the ends, not once tension finally spreads around evenly (if it ever can), but they can help significantly to get it there. 

They aren't though generally what some casual onlooker sees when they think they see (or some suggestion makes them think they see) a trucker's hitch.

It's not actually hard to tie such true trucker's hitch mechanisms either of course, it's just probably not very practically valuable.

simultaneous posting.. I agree, I cannot speak about how the knot does work yet.  I only wanted to speak to a particular way that someone should not try to "see" that it does.
Title: Re: "Tackled" hitches - a new class of tight hitches.
Post by: xarax on August 17, 2015, 02:24:41 PM
In the end they won't result in an overall average tension in the individual wraps  greater than the tension pulled on the ends, not once tension finally spreads around evenly (if it ever can), but they can help significantly to get it there. 

   Believing in this myth as long as it will last, because, afterwards, when you will actually tie the knots and see ( or even measure ) how wrong you were, you will remember it ! : ) :)
   Start by comparing the Simplest hitch (1), with the Simplest Tackled hitch. I use to judge tightness by sound ( :) ), but you can use the other method I had proposed : their efficiency in an lengthwise pull.
   So, tie TWO Simplest ( un-tackled ) one-wrap hitches side by side, at the one end of a pole, and ONE Simplest Tackled hitch, at the other, and drag them simultaneously, towards the middle. Then, report your findings here. Only do not tell me that I had told you what you will tell us ! :)

1. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=5209.0
Title: Re: "Tackled" hitches - a new class of tight hitches.
Post by: xarax on August 17, 2015, 02:31:20 PM
   And, when you will find any pair of one-wrap hitches, or any two-wrap hitch, which will be able to strangle as ferociously the poor pole as a Butterfly Tackled hitch, please, tell it to me, to throw this jungle of ropes around me out of the window : it will make all members of my family, and most members of the Forum, really happy  - and save my spinal cord at the same time ! :) :) :)
Title: Re: "Tackled" hitches - a new class of tight hitches.
Post by: xarax on August 17, 2015, 06:08:51 PM
   Perhaps ( = PERHAPS ! :)), to tie the Butterfly Tackled hitch in-the-bight more easily / quickly, he/she should better start from the double loop shown at pict.#1.
   Then :
   1 : Flip the inner circle, and both ends leading to it, horizontally, to arrive at the shape shown at pict.#2
   2 : Flip the outer circle, and twist its legs, vertically, to arrive at the shape shown at pict.#3.
        Pay attention to ONE things :
        After stage #2, the crossing point of the legs of the outer circle ( after the flip / twist ), should now be at the OTHER side than the crossing point of the legs of the inner circle. ( In the attached picture#3, it is at the "front" side ). This way the ends of the hitch will become encircled by both sides, as they should.
    3 : Insert the left semicircle into the left inner loop, and the right semicircle into the right inner loop, to arrive at the shape shown at pict.#4.
    You are done - as shown in the not-so-clear picture of Reply#4.
   
    With repetition and experience, I believe one would find out the correct/optimum relation between the diameter of the initial double loop he should form and the diameter of the pole he wants to encircle.
   
    HOWEVER, and I want to underline it, there are MANY other, different ways one can tie this knot in-the-bight - I can not know, in advance, which will suit whom better. In the sequence I had shown, I had tried to retain a correspondence to the general mental image of this double loop with communicating bights, which one may consider as the "base" of this hitch. One may also start different initial basic shapes, and make different transformations. Contrary of how it may look at the first sight, this knot is NOT very convoluted : it has only a small number of tucks and twists, and that is why it can become so tightly wiven around the ends we want to immobilize and "lock". 
     
Title: Re: "Tackled" hitches - a new class of tight hitches.
Post by: xarax on August 17, 2015, 07:37:16 PM
  hold in gains from things pulling much harder than my arms,
  If I only need tightness that I can create in my hands
  the butterfly tackle seem to be for human, spinal supported, levels of forces where it can be conveniently tightened in its best way.

  This is an old misconception people had, and I thought I had made it clear, and would not come back again to it...
   I am not talking about tensioning by hands for its own sake ! I am talking about pre-tensioning by hands, so the wraps will not become very elongated / oval / elliptically shaped if/when/while, later, there will be a tensioning by a load even much heavier than the force delivered by hands.
  In short : There are two kinds of hitches able to withstand a lengthwise pull : the hitches with cross-gathered wraps ( like the rat-tail stopper, and others shown by Ashley in his relevant chapter ), and the hitches with tightly woven wraps. If the wraps are not cross-gartered, or not tightly woven, they will slip, unless they are MANY - but we are talking about few-wrap hitches here : ANY hitch, even if it is not knotted, will hold ANY lengthwise pull, however strong, if it has a sufficiently big number of wraps...
   So, we want to tighten the wraps, just for this : to "pretension" the hitch, just as the civil engineers pre-tension their concrete. If we do this, the wraps will become less oblique, if/when/while this hitch will be loaded by a lengthwise pull, and so they will slip less easily, and also, during some moments of extreme loading, they will be translated along the pole less than the looser wraps of a less pre-tightened hitch.
Title: Re: "Tackled" hitches - a new class of tight hitches.
Post by: xarax on August 17, 2015, 08:28:22 PM
  As I had mentioned in a previous post, in those two-wrap tackled hitches, when you pull the one end (= the one leg of the one U, linked to the tip of the main bight), both legs of the other U continue to pull the main bight "your" end is pulling : they remain tensioned at all times, they never become slack - so they "help" you, increasing the effective mechanical advantage, which, this way, comes closer to 4:1 than to 2:1, as one may had supposed. However, there is another possible advantage in this configuration, which I had also tried to exploit in the Butterfly Tackled hitch : the two "returning" legs of the two Us, are parallel, adjacent, and also squeezed upon each other by the two legs of the main bight, at their one end, and by the main nub of the hitch, at their other - AND, they are squeezed onto the surface of the pole at the same time. So, they "lock" each other, and the burden the nub of the hitch has to bear to immobilize any one of them, is distributed and lessened. Even if we UNTIE the one of the two interlinked loops which form the nub of the hitch, both adjacent ends of both Us remain tensioned, and in their former place. An additional advantage, regarding security, this twin configuration offers.
Title: Re: "Tackled" hitches - a new class of tight hitches.
Post by: xarax on August 18, 2015, 02:54:57 AM
   The "full", more "fat"/bulky Butterfly Tackled hitch, shown in previous posts, can be tied even more easily, and in a conceptually simpler way, starting from a common Butterfly loop. To see how, do some "reverse engineering" : Tie the Tacled variation in-the-end, as you see it in the pictures, and then perform this tricky transformation : make the two Us, which turn around the tip of the main bight, be "swallowed" by the "mouth" of the nub, and get out of the other side all the way. You will be surprized : What you will get, after some redressing, will also be a Butterfly loop, with the ends going through its eye this time. Now, you can make a loop / collar encircle the ends of a loop, when they do not, or vice versa, by implementing the "haltering the collar" method. So, you can, in one move, have this "second" Butterfly loop, become a normal loop, without its ends going through its eye. Now, following the exact time-reversed sequence of the above described moves, you can go from one common Butterfly loop to its "Tackled" variation, following the steps, in reverse, you had followed to de-Tackle it ! :)
   ( I have not shown this method, because I want to promote the "slimmer" version, which can not be tied so easily using it - the nub is simpler, and one can easily lose the control of the many concurrent, in mid air, segments. )   
Title: Re: "Tackled" hitches - a new class of tight hitches.
Post by: Ruby on August 18, 2015, 12:58:12 PM
the tricky transformation may introduce kinks.

In many such "retraced" knots, the one line may go "over" and then "under" the other, and thus we have the formation of unnecessary twists, "kinks" - which, besides being ugly, they may also be detrimental regarding the strength of the knot.  :D
Title: Re: "Tackled" hitches - a new class of tight hitches.
Post by: xarax on August 18, 2015, 01:04:57 PM
   As mentioned in Reply#22, we can either start from a double loop with communicating bights, or from a single end-of-line loop - but we should better start from TIB ones, in order to end with a TIB hitch. Starting from the ABoK#1021 loop ( which is nothing but two unlinked slipped overhand knots, joined by the pair of eyelegs of their common eye ), we end to a hitch with a nub a little simpler than we would, had we started from the Butterfly loop ( "simpler", just because the two overhand knots are now not interlinked ).
   However, although the nub is tight and stable, it is not deformed by the pulling if the ends against the pole, and it does not "walk" towards the tip of the main bight when the hitch is tensioned, it can not be untied very easily - in fact, it can be untied only with GREAT difficulty ! :)  Therefore, I suggest one better ties it near the very end of the pole, so, if he/she pretensions it as hard as I did ( by STEPPING ON the hanged pole - hanged by the one and then by the other end, alternately ), he/she would be able to force the hitch to slide just a little bit, reach the end of the pole, and so be released. 
Title: Re: "Tackled" hitches - a new class of tight hitches.
Post by: xarax on August 18, 2015, 01:09:10 PM
the tricky transformation may introduce kinks.

  I know... It works better with some loops than with some others. I had mentioned it just as a way we can see how/why, starting from TIB loops, we end with TIB tackled hitches - but I do not believe that, as a tying method, it should be followed in all cases. 
Title: Re: "Tackled" hitches - a new class of tight hitches.
Post by: xarax on August 18, 2015, 02:23:06 PM
   ABoK#1050 is interesting as a (TIB) Eskimo-like loop, but too lopsided for anything else. However, the nub of its Tackled version is OK, and it is not "walking" ( actually, because its asymmetry, it "walks" more while we pull the one end than while we pull the other, but after a while the whole nub reaches an equilibrium, and solidifies ). Trying to make it more visually appealing, I had sacrificed its TIB-ness ( just a little bit :)), and the result is shown in the attached pictures. Due to the fact that its nub is less convoluted, and less tight, the ends can be "pushed" through their "lock", and so the this hitch can be untied more easily than the one based on ABoK#1021.
Title: The Overhand knot Tackled hitch.
Post by: xarax on August 19, 2015, 10:00:46 AM
   The simplest, conceptually, Tackled hitch ( tight hitch / binder ) is the one based on the simplest end-of-line loop : the Overhand loop. The good thing with the double-line overhand knot which makes the nub of this loop, is that, when the eye of the overhand loop is loaded, it does not "walk" towards it by itself - while, at the same time, it can be transported easily closer or further from it by us, if/when we want to re-adjust the size of the eye. The bad thing is that it "closes" tightly around itself and it becomes difficult to untie - but, for the purpose we want it, this is actually an advantage : in the case of the Tackled hitch based on it, we want it to be as tight as possible, and remain so during and after the pulling of the ends of the hitch which penetrate it, in order to be able to grip, nip and immobilize the ends which penetrate it as securely as possible.
   There are different ways one can see a rope-made mechanism, and when it is simple, i.e., when it is as simple as a knot, there are even more ! :) Many knots are "similar" to many others, so there are many ways we can try to "reduce" our descriptions of their forms or explain how they work, starting from yet simpler, more "elementary" rope tangles.
   How I "see" this Tackled hitch : As an overhand loop, where the ends :
  1. first, they are linked with the eye of the loop ( = they go through it, passing from its one side to its other ),
  2. and, then, they re-enter into the nub from the same side they exit from it in the first place, and exit from it from the opposite side.
   In place of the Overhand loop, we may have any other end of line loop - only that it should be TIB, if we want our Tackled hitch to be TIB as well. For the time being, I think that the most appropriate loop for this is the simplified/slimmed Butterfly loop I had presented in previous posts.
   As I had said many times, there are not only many ways to describe and explain a knot, but also to tie it ! To tie this Tackled hitch in-the-bight, I suggest one should better tie it first in-the-ends ( that is, on a short line, where he can have easy access to both ends ), and then make some "reverse engineering" to see how he could had tied it in-the-bight. The trick is to perform a simple experiment : On a loose hitch, removed from the hitched object, we can pull the ends all the way, so the two "secondary" loops get through the nub, from its one way to the other. After we do that, we will see that our knot has been transformed to something else - which I will not tell, because I do not want to spoil the joy of the knot tyer who will perform this transformation ! I only say that it is a well known TIB double loop, which can be tied-in-the bight also in many ways...( Stop ! I have almost spilled the beans already ! :) ). From this stage, the interested reader would see how to reverse the whole procedure, and go back to the Overhand knot Tackled hitch he had started.
   We would had followed the same method for tying any Tackled hitch, based on any end-of-line loop, but : 1 : there may be easier and quicker ways to tie each of them, or 2 : by this method we may lose the control of the many parallel segments and twist some around others, and so end with a knot with kinks, which is not a good thing regarding its strength, as ruby noticed.
   Even for the Butterfly Tackled hitch, which, for the moment, I find as the slimmest and more easily untiable of all I had tied and tried, I am not sure which is the easiest and quickest tying method... Also, I am a knot-tyer, I am not a knot-user : for the "average" knot-user, perhaps a bulkier, yet "simpler", conceptually, Tackled hitch, like the Overhand knot Tackled hitch shown in this post, may be more attractive and "useful".
Title: Re: "Tackled" hitches - a new class of tight hitches.
Post by: xarax on August 19, 2015, 01:09:15 PM
   I had pre-tensioned this Butterfly Tackled hitch by jumping on the pole, with my full body weight, while it was hanged by each one of the two ends, alternately - so the nub was "closed" around itself very tightly. Yet I was able to release the "lock" and untie the knot  rather easily, by pushing the rim of the first ("over") nipping loop of the nub over the top of the second, ("under") one, as shown in the last attached picture. It is interesting that, in this stage, the hitch is still holding ! It is only after we do the same thing to the rim of the second ( "under ) nipping loop, that the "lock" is finally released. This means that this nub works as a very secure "lock", which, even if its first line of defence is broken through, its second will hold.
   Needles to say, the grip of this hitch is phenomenal : one has to drive the ends back through the opposing bights of the main and the secondary loops ( i.e., to go from a 2: 1 to a 3 :1 mechanical advantage for each pair ) to tie a tighter hitch - but this is another story.
Title: Tackled Bull Clove hitch.
Post by: xarax on August 21, 2015, 05:06:19 PM
  The simplest way we can transform a tight hitch into its "Tackled" version, is to twist the one half of each wrap 360 degrees relatively to the other ( so, duplicate the number of the wraps of the non-Tackled, parent hitch ). ( See this operation applied on the Tackled Simplest hitch, shown at the first posts of this thread ). This can be done instantly, it does not change the tying method of the parent hitch, and has unexpectedly satisfactory results, regarding the tightness of the wraps.
   As I had tried to explain, the enhancement of the gripping power of the hitch ( per wrap ) which w achieve this way, is due to the alignment of the segments which go to, and leave from, the centre of the tackle : the common tip of the two interlinked Us - which alignment improves the angle between the pulling and the pulled segments, on which the efficiency of the mechanical advantage is depending. Now we can pre-tension each wrap of the hitch more, simply because we can exploit more what the mechanical advantage offers to us. The casual knot tyer may wonder why those two wraps, which have been born out of this tricky twisting of each initial one, do not revolve, so that their crossing points approach and finally "kiss" each other - since, geometrically, this can be done without any change of the lengths of the wrapped rope segments. The answer is simple : as it happens to tied knots which are not untied / unknotted, for exactly the same reason the screws are not unscrewed ! :) : Friction. To become able to revolve, while they are already starting to become tensioned, each wrap should overcome the friction forces coming from its contact with the surface of the hitched object, and those friction forces are always stronger than the forces which drag its crossing point towards the crossing point of its twin wrap. At first I had not realized that, and that is why I had not tried this configuration, although I had thought about it when I was tying the TackleClamp hitch. However, it seems that, even if we have some experience of "similar" rope mechanisms, we can not "think" about knots beyond a certain point, where things become too complex, and we have to actually tie and try them, and see what happens.
   At the attached pictures, one can see the Tackled Bull Clove hitch. An already very good, very tight hitch, which becomes even better, because the tension / gripping power of each wrap is improved relatively to what it was in the parent hitch. I am not sure I would choose this four-wrap hitch and not a TackleClamp hitch, for example, or even the less tight, but also TIB (  and tiable almost instantly ) Locked Double Cow hitch - but I show some pictures of it, so the reader gets the "feeling" of how Tackled hitches themselves work, despite how we would had thought they would !

   At the first two pictures one can see the stage where the wraps of the hitch start to become tensioned. We should leave ample space between the crossing points of the tackled wraps and the central nub, so the knot does not "closes" prematurely. This depends on the characteristics of the hitched object and of the rope, so there is no general rule we can follow to achieve this in each and every case. As a rule of thumb, I think that if the whole mechanism starts to become tensioned when the wraps cover the 3/4 ths of the circumference of the pole, the spacing would be enough - but with other objects, of different shapes, one should apply the best rule of all : try and error. :)
Title: Tackled Bull Clove hitch
Post by: xarax on August 21, 2015, 05:09:38 PM
   Two more pictures of the Tackled Bull Clove hitch - just to keep my blah-blah to show ratio small... :)
Title: Re: Tackled Bull Clove hitch
Post by: knotsaver on August 21, 2015, 07:22:30 PM
    just to keep my blah-blah to show ratio small... :)

Thank you, Xarax, for all your "blah-blah"! ;)
I'm trying to use the ABoK #1100 double loop, locking the tails into the two (tight) eyes, but it's not TIB...
Title: Re: "Tackled" hitches - a new class of tight hitches.
Post by: xarax on August 21, 2015, 07:59:15 PM
   ABoK#1100 is a re-tucked Butterfly loop ( ABoK#1053 ), so it is TIB. I believe I had tied all the Butterfly-knot-related Tackled hitches, and I had not found anything better than the two I ve presented in this thread - but I may have missed something. With all those parallel segments, it is easy to make a mistake, and lose an interesting possibility. Keep tying and trying ! :) - and watch your back ! Tie, for example the Tackled Bull Pretzel hitch (1)(2)( which I have in front of me, but I have to wait the sun to take some decent photos of it...). It is very tight Tackled hitch, too. (3)

1. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=5250.msg34395#msg34395
2. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=5250.msg34410#msg34410
3. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=5255
Title: Re: "Tackled" hitches - a new class of tight hitches.
Post by: xarax on August 22, 2015, 04:13:44 PM
   Let us return to the very first post, and have a look at the Simplest Tackled hitch shown there. Its Standing End is "locked" by the humble underhand knot, where this most simple, indeed, hitch is based - while, at a distance of only a few rope diameters, we have the centre of the tackle, the common tip of the two opposed interlinked Us. That does not seem right - a tight-hitch-knot-tyer who uses overhand and fig.8 knots, when he can use simpler tangles, is not worth his salt ! :)  Why not utilize those opposing Us, and lock the Tail End there ( and not within the overhand knot ), by implementing the opposing bights locking mechanism ? ( which is much simpler, safer and more easily and instantaneously un-tiable than all the other "locks" we have ).  And, as a bonus, we get one more zig-zag vertex, which means that we increase the mechanical advantage of the hitch.
   The loose form of that hitch, just before we start pulling the end against the pole, is shown at the attached pictures. For the moment, I call it Double Simplest Tackled hitch, or Doubly / Twice tackled Simplest hitch - and I have only to say that it is the tighter two-wrap tight hitch / binder I had ever tied ! Perhaps I should had anticipated its gripping power, since the mechanical advantage is increased relatively to its parent hitch, but, in any case, the feeling of a two-wrap hitch which can not even REVOLVE around a sleek pole, was really surprizing to me.
   Reminder : the knot should be already "closed", albeit not tightly, around itself and the pole at this stage - if it is still very loose, the two parts of the tackle will run the danger to slide on the surface of the pole all the way, and "kiss" each other before the hitch becomes very tight. On the other hand, and depending on how slippery are the rope and the pole, if one starts from this position, the hitch may "lock" prematurely before the two parts approach each other as much as we want ( we want a compact, tight knot where the pulling and pulled segments will be almost parallel, for reasons explained in previous posts ).   
   
   More pictures, of the tight hitch, shortly.
   Note : As one may see, I had placed the parent overhand knot differently, because now the line which penetrates it makes a U-turn inside it. We have to secure an overhand knot at the tip of a bight, and, to do this in the most efficient and secure way, we should better arrange its segments so that its tail goes "under" the first curve of its Standing Part.
Title: Double Simplest Tackled hitch
Post by: xarax on August 22, 2015, 06:35:30 PM
   Here is how the knot ( shown in its loose, initial tightening phase in the previous post ) becomes after the pre-tensioning.
   The two parallel umbilical cords between the two parts of the tackle are longer than required - they could well had half the length they have, and be even more straight and parallel. However, one can never be sure, in advance, where/when exactly the mechanism will "lock" : it depends on the characteristics of the rope and the pole, how loose or tight is the knot in the initial stage ( before the start of the pre-tensioning ), how hardly it will be pre-tensioned, if its Standing End remains perpendicular to the surface of the pole during all stages of the pre-tensioning... One has to tie the knot on the same rope and pole, and starting from the same initial set up, two-three times, to get an idea about how long will those segments be when the knot will be locked and become maximally pre-tensioned. 
   The third picture is the knot as it looks right after it has been removed from the pole through its one end, without been loosened. We see that it is a very small and simple knot, which consumes less material than other less tight and secure hitches,  yet what it can accomplish, as a two, only, wraps tight hitch / binder, is quite remarkable IMO. 
Title: Double Simplest Tackled hitch
Post by: xarax on August 22, 2015, 11:12:36 PM
   There are four ways to tie an ABoK#1821-like overhand knot inside the tip of the U. I have seen that, under heavy loading,  the three of them are OK : in the fourth, the tail of the overhand knot does not remain as well encircled within its own rim and the rim of the U, so I guess that it may turn out to be secure than the other three. See, at the first two attached pictures, two of those three solutions, and, at the last two pictures, the solution which seems better to me. The overhand knot should be attached securely, yet it should not "close" around itself, in order to allow the unhindered passage of the line through it, when we pull it to pre-tension the hitch. ( I have not tried some other, more complex solutions (1) ).

1. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4307
Title: Re: The Overhand knot Tackled hitch.
Post by: Dan_Lehman on August 23, 2015, 05:46:07 PM
   The simplest, conceptually, Tackled hitch ( tight hitch / binder )
I've been thinking of such things as "binder hitches" ?!
(And I guess that "friction"/"gripping" almost comes along
for the ride, so to speak, for if it's much of a hitch and binds,
it will likely give frictional resistance against loading along
or near the axis of the hitched object.)
Quote
is the one based on the simplest end-of-line loop : the Overhand loop.
Might it be best to orient the S.Part through the overhand
so that it splits the "spine" --and gets the hitch structure that
you've elsewhere propagated as such a simple, good noose?

I found in the wild a case where weights for a net (tied-on
bricks or stones) apparently involved cutting and re-tying the
line to the netting, but where that very structure could have
been tied in the bight --and this one suggests such use, too.

With all such knots and esp. the more opposed-bights locking
ones, beware the specious performance on hard-slick objects,
sooooo unlike what will happen if trying to bind rope onto rope!


--dl*
====
Title: Re: The Overhand knot Tackled hitch.
Post by: xarax on August 23, 2015, 07:11:44 PM
   Might it be best to orient the S.Part through the overhand so that it splits the "spine" ...

   Provided the pair of the lines re-enter into the nub from the correct side ( in order to retain the TIB-ness ), they can go through any one of the three possible openings of the overhand pretzel - and if they follow the path you describe they are probably gripped / nipped more tightly, indeed. I had decided to show a nub where they follow the "simplest", more easy to follow visually path, just because I wanted to emphasize the topology more than the geometry, and because the pictures of this solution can be deciphered more easily.

...unlike what will happen if trying to bind rope onto rope

   I had not even thought of using such tangles on rope-to-rope attachments ! ! Rope is not only more curved ( cross-sectional-ly ) and less slippery than a sleek/slick pole, but it is also compressible - and that means we should better chose different, more efficient solutions when we want to bind rope onto rope.
Title: Re: "Tackled" hitches - a new class of tight hitches.
Post by: xarax on August 24, 2015, 12:49:09 AM
   "Double Simplest Tackled hitch" ? ? Come on ! :) :)
   I made two changes :
   First, I tied the TIB version, using, instead of the overhand knot, a slipped overhand knot. It was not as easy at it sounds, because I had to change the over/under relation of the tackled wraps, too, and it took me some time to realize that I had to do this...
   Second, I searched for a decent, short name, and I came with this : " Yoke hitch ". I believe it conveys the image of the two tackled parts coming together - and, as a four letters word, it is OK ! :) Any other suggestion would be welcomed.
   For the pictures, I have to wait for the sun - again... I had pre-tensioned this version using the pole itself as a level, with my whole body weight at the long end. The slipped overhand knots held perfectly - but the fact that they are slipped, does not mean they can be untied ! :) This hitch is meant to be a permanent hitch - after the pictures, I will simply cut the tails off ! 
    What is the most interesting in the hard pre-tensioning of this hitch, is the sound the tensioned rope makes, when you hit it with something : it sounds like wood ! :)