International Guild of Knot Tyers Forum

General => Practical Knots => Topic started by: djbrenne on May 13, 2015, 11:22:17 PM

Title: I'm looking for an adjustable loop that won't slip--any ideas?
Post by: djbrenne on May 13, 2015, 11:22:17 PM
Hi,

I'm brand-new to this forum, and don't have a whole lot of knot-tying experience.

I'm looking for a loop that I can adjust the size of, but will remain at that size after adjustment until I want to adjust it again. The loop would be usually under tension, but there are times when it would be slack, and I don't want the loop adjusting its size by itself in the event that it does go slack. I've tried an Adjustable Grip Hitch, which serves my purpose reasonably well--except that I'm tying very small thread (nylon, 0.36 mm / 0.014" diameter) in a very tight space, and even with a jig I made up it's difficult to tie properly without taking 10 minutes or more... The point of the loop is to adjust the tension in the string by changing the effective length.

If anyone has an idea of a simpler knot that serves the same purpose, or another method of string tensioning altogether I'd be glad to hear about it.
Title: Re: I'm looking for an adjustable loop that won't slip--any ideas?
Post by: roo on May 14, 2015, 12:03:21 AM
Hi,

I'm brand-new to this forum, and don't have a whole lot of knot-tying experience.

I'm looking for a loop that I can adjust the size of, but will remain at that size after adjustment until I want to adjust it again. The loop would be usually under tension, but there are times when it would be slack, and I don't want the loop adjusting its size by itself in the event that it does go slack. I've tried an Adjustable Grip Hitch, which serves my purpose reasonably well--except that I'm tying very small thread (nylon, 0.36 mm / 0.014" diameter) in a very tight space, and even with a jig I made up it's difficult to tie properly without taking 10 minutes or more... The point of the loop is to adjust the tension in the string by changing the effective length.

If anyone has an idea of a simpler knot that serves the same purpose, or another method of string tensioning altogether I'd be glad to hear about it.

Try an HFP Slippery 8 Loop (http://notableknotindex.webs.com/slippery8.html). 
Title: Re: I'm looking for an adjustable loop that won't slip--any ideas?
Post by: Dan_Lehman on May 14, 2015, 07:44:59 AM
Try an HFP Slippery 8 Loop (http://notableknotindex.webs.com/slippery8.html).

Ah, David Poston --vague recollections of him, yes.

And was I at that time aware of my "quick8"
--which is simply what is presented but with the
tail running through the opposite direction
(and suprisingly holding well!) !?

But this structure requires that one has a pretty
good idea of some range of needed adjustment
--or you tie with a really lonnnng tail!
Whereas with the Adjustable hitch, one can just
slide the knot farther and farther out the S.Part
of the *noose*.

--dl*
====
Title: Re: I'm looking for an adjustable loop that won't slip--any ideas?
Post by: xarax on May 14, 2015, 12:52:19 PM
   The Dave Paston s adjustable loop is much more secure than the quick8 adjustable loop, IMHO. The L-shaped curve, the "handle", on the returning eye leg does a marvellous job, in all such "Eskimo-like" loops.
   However, both of them are clearly inferior, as adjustable loops and as knots ( they are not TIB, for example...), than the simple Pretzel loop, shown in the attached picture.
   Will anyone of the gentlemen that had suggested those two loops EVER tie and try the Pretzel loop ?  Noope ! Will they ever "see" that it is more secure, more stable/balanced, more simple, more clever, more versatile knot ? NEVER !  :) :) :)
   Knot tyers are those who tie their own knots - and ignore everything else... ( However, this is probably the case with artists, in general ? )
Title: Re: I'm looking for an adjustable loop that won't slip--any ideas?
Post by: Mobius on May 28, 2015, 12:56:06 PM
Hi djbrenne,

This link https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1t-0bR8AlFeRkraqoRLC7ODwEVJAwxY0e-J-UQCBLA_M/edit?usp=sharing shows an adjustable loop I may have discovered and thought I had no real use for (or for anyone for that matter). I had to call it something, so for now it is a 'Locked Transom Loop'. I'm quite happy to change that if this isn't a new knot.

Later It occurred to me that the simple overhand knot sliding mechanism part could easily be sandwiched between the the two eye collars and 'locked'. When the knot cinched the opposing sliding parts of the knot would want to tighten against each other in a similar way a Fisherman's Bend does. Unlocking it and resizing the eye via the overhand will remain easy if you tie this knot with a suitably long tail and just tug it free after loading and slid it again.

The tying method I show is 'tiable in the bight' (TIB). If that is not suitable for you can find a way to tie it 'around an endless rail' from the expanded knot views I also show. Doing it that way won't be so nice and I have not worked on a tying method for that. Edit: You can tie a rather unusual pre-knot shaped like an 8 to start with, then pass the end around an endless rail and back through the pre-knot and then do an overhand around the standing part. This method is convoluted enough to put most off this knot I suppose.

This knot is not 'post eye tiable' (PET) for what that missing quality may mean to you and I have not tested it on my rig. If you want to do something critical with it I can trial it for you, however any trialling I do is only intended to be a guide, not a guarantee.

Cheers,

mobius

Edit: Added two more images that show the knot dressed in a better form, probably the best. I trialled the knot in this form and it held its structure and eventually broke at 140Kg (3mm poly braid breakload 200Kg). The final image is the broken knot.

Edit: Removed first image, the 'best dressing' images are better and renamed this knot to:  'Locked Transom Loop'. The figure 8 like pre-knot is a Transom/Strangle knot.
Title: Re: I'm looking for an adjustable loop that won't slip--any ideas?
Post by: Sweeney on May 29, 2015, 10:36:46 AM
However, both of them are clearly inferior, as adjustable loops and as knots ( they are not TIB, for example...), than the simple Pretzel loop, shown in the attached picture.
 

Nice knot Xarax which holds well and is quick and easy to tie.
Title: Re: I'm looking for an adjustable loop that won't slip--any ideas?
Post by: xarax on May 29, 2015, 10:52:12 AM
   I believe that the more complex / convoluted the nipping / gripping nub becomes, the less efficiently it can nip / grip a penetrating line. In a complex / convoluted nub, a considerable portion of its overall constricting power will be "wasted' within itself. Some segments of the nub which surround the penetrating line will not be directly pulled and tensioned by the Standing End, and so they will not squeeze the penetrating line very much. On the contrary, some of them will form a kind of a "protective shield" around it, and they will absorb a part of compression which otherwise ( in a simpler, less tangled but more tightly closed around itself nub ) would had been able to reach it directly, and press/squeeze them a more unobstructed, so more efficient way.
   Multiplying the points and increasing the total area of contact between the nipping / gripping nub and the penetrating line, is a poor strategy. In fact, what we should better do, is the exact opposite : fewer points, smaller area, so greater, more efficient concentration of the pressure applied by the nipping / gripping nub on the surface of the penetrating line. This way the cylindrical surfaces of the adjacent segments will be squeezed locally, they will settle into a saddle-shaped forms , and this will multiply the friction forces between them. Otherwise, the two segments will run the danger to slide on each others flat surface, and the total friction forces will be reduced.
   The great example of this is the nipping / gripping efficiency of the opposed bights locking mechanism : Few points and small area of contact - but of unobstructed, direct contact, between a short segment of the penetrating line and the fully tensioned segments at the first curves / tips of the two bights.
   
   Of course, the shape of the path of the penetrating line is of paramount importance, too. An L-shaped path, plays the role of a "handle", by which the nipping / gripping nub can 'hold" the penetrating line more easily. ( A U-shaped path is even more effective, but it can not be used in adjustable loops, because either it will prevent any pull of the Tail End during the adjustment of the size of the eye, or it will force the nub itself to be deformed badly during this adjustment, and allow the U to become straightened out, and release the penetrating line. )   
    Another way we can increase friction on the penetrating line, is, simply, to use a knot that we know it jams ! I have seen that the humble Clove hitch, when tied around a segment of a compressible material / a rope, "closes" around itself very tightly, and "works" as a tensile forces accumulator, a rope-made ratchet which absorbs all induced through its ends tensile forces, but then "locks" them securely inside its two wraps.
   In short, to increase friction, we should either increase quantity of friction= increase the number of helical turns around a nipping / gripping coil, just as we do in climbing hitches - OR increase quality of friction = reduce the complexity of the nipping / gripping nub, reduce the number of points and the area of contact between this nub and the penetrating line, but :
1. Be sure that the segments of the nub which come in contact with the penetrating line are at the direct continuation f the Standing End, and so maximally loaded / tensioned. It is the first curve which does most of the job, the segments of the nub after this play a secondary, only, role.
2. The penetrating line follows an L-shaped path within the surrounding nub.
Title: Re: I'm looking for an adjustable loop that won't slip--any ideas?
Post by: alanleeknots on May 29, 2015, 11:53:29 PM
Hi All,
         I have this convoluted wan't slip adjustable loop here, can support heavy load and easy to readjust loop.

        First test, with 1/2 inch solid braid nylon rope, after loading with 650 lbs. I find no problem to loose the nub and readjust the loop.
        Second test with 1/4 inch solid braid nylon rope, after loading with 650 lbs. I found little harder to loose the nub for readjusting
        loop. (I guess alots of knots when we tie it with smaller size rope and loaded heavily can create some difficulty to untie) 
 
       Xarax can you please tell me something.
     
       謝謝  alan lee.
Title: Re: I'm looking for an adjustable loop that won't slip--any ideas?
Post by: alanleeknots on May 30, 2015, 12:00:55 AM
Hi All,
         I like the look of the loop, but it will jam even with medium load.       
       
         謝謝  alan lee.

Title: Re: I'm looking for an adjustable loop that won't slip--any ideas?
Post by: Mobius on May 30, 2015, 12:57:59 AM
..... (I guess alots of knots when we tie it with smaller size rope and loaded heavily can create some difficulty to untie) 
 
            謝謝  alan lee.

I concur with that statement FWIW. I am only trialling 3mm poly braid, however knots that are supposed to be 'easy untying' can take some patience to free by hand after a load. I came to the conclusion that any knot I could spend a few minutes on and actually untie by hand was 'easy'. Eg. a Zeppelin Bend after load using my material still takes some patient prying apart.

Cheers,

mobius
Title: Re: I'm looking for an adjustable loop that won't slip--any ideas?
Post by: xarax on May 30, 2015, 02:22:00 AM
   @Alan Lee
   I had replied to your posts at Reply#6 - which I wrote after I had read the first versions of your posts, and I had seen the first pictures of your knots.
   In short, I do not like the facts that :
   1 : The "higher" limb of the overhand knot is not pulled directly by the continuation of the Standing End, which carries the 100% of the load - therefore the overhand knot itself can not close very forcefully / tightly around itself, and around the penetrating line.
   This rather complex / convoluted nipping / gripping structure is made of two distinct, almost separate parts, placed the one after the other :  a "higher" crossing knot-based one ( the second line of defence against the slippage of the penetrating line ) which is OK ( its first curve does encircle the end of the penetrating line, exactly as it should ) - AND a "lower" overhand knot-based one ( the first line of defence against the slippage of the penetrating line ) which I find more weak than it should be : this weakly loaded overhand knot remains rather loose, and its participation in the combined nipping / gripping action of the whole structure on the penetrating line is almost insignificant ! In other words, I have the feeling that the help it offers against the slippage of the penetrating line is not worth the amount of material it consumes...
   2 : The curve at the end of the penetrating line / returning eyeleg is too smooth and wide : for best results, it should be more L-shaped. You may had placed this overhand knot not (only) to help the crossing knot in the nipping / gripping of the penetrating line, but (also) to achieve a sharper, narrower curve, but I think that the result was not as pronounced as we would had wished.  See some nipping / gripping structures as complex / convoluted as this, but based on double overhand knots, where such L-shaped curves make more secure "handles", at :
http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=2996.msg17841#msg17841
http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=2996.msg17842#msg17842
http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=2996.msg17843#msg17843
Title: Re: I'm looking for an adjustable loop that won't slip--any ideas?
Post by: Mobius on May 30, 2015, 06:34:38 AM
I trialled the Pretzel Loop in 3mm poly braid. The first diagram is how I tied it. I cinched this form as tightly as I could, bearing in mind you cannot tighten the nub using one of the eye legs since it isn't fixed. Perhaps this is going to be a disadvantage for some adjustable loops where you cannot 'lock' the eye legs prior to load.

The knot moved so much during the trial it changed structure into the form I show in the second image (sorry for the image quality I kept retaking shots and no matter what I did with my camera and lighting it turned out less than ideal).

I think it fair to say the knot collapsed (it somehow ended up almost inside out, though you won't see that I think from my image), though it did seem to reach a stable form eventually. I was able to undo this collapsed stable form and return the knot to its original structure easily.

Cheers,

Mobius

Edit: Just did another trial and dressed the knot differently than the first trial. This time the knot held form to over 105Kg. I didn't take it to break, I wanted to see if it untied easily, it did.
Title: Re: I'm looking for an adjustable loop that won't slip--any ideas?
Post by: Mobius on May 30, 2015, 08:14:09 AM
I trialled the knot roo suggested. The HFP Slippery 8 loop was easy to tie (image shown below, just to make sure I did it right). The knot held it's form throughout the loading and broke at ~150Kg. That is the highest break I have seen on my rig with the 3mm poly braid I am using.

Cheers,

mobius
Title: Re: I'm looking for an adjustable loop that won't slip--any ideas?
Post by: xarax on May 30, 2015, 01:25:37 PM
   As I had tried to explain in Reply#6 (1), ANY simple enough, stable knot would nip/grip a penetrating line / a returning eye leg very efficiently, if this line enters in it and exits from it in the proper, optimum "Eskimo" like way, and follows an L-shaped path. The only thing we should avoid, is a too convoluted / too complex nub, which will absorb a great portion of the tension that otherwise would had reached the penetrating line more directly, without being dissipated across a larger area of the nub, or being obstructed by loosely tensioned segments. Back in 2011 I had tied all the possible variations of such knots, based on a Double overhand knot core, but then I had abandoned them because I had focused on TIB knots ( which could also be used in PET adjustable loops ) (2)(3)(4). An example of such a PET loop, which may be considered as a variation of the "Eskimo" bowline itself ( a "doubled" variation ), was presented at (5).
   Is this search for tighter nipping / gripping nubs over ? Not at all ! There may be many very efficient such nubs waiting for us out there - however, personally, I have concentrated my efforts on the TIB ones, so my options are fewer.
   The most simple Double overhand knot - based adjustable loop, is shown at the attached pictures. Notice the L-shaped "handle", and the contact between its tip and the most heavily loaded / tensioned part of the Standing Part of the nub, its first curve.   

1. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=5322.msg35742#msg35742
2. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=2996.msg17841#msg17841
3. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=2996.msg17842#msg17842
4. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=2996.msg17843#msg17843
5. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4340.msg27168#msg27168
Title: Re: I'm looking for an adjustable loop that won't slip--any ideas?
Post by: Mobius on May 30, 2015, 01:58:16 PM
Tex started this thread http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=5358.0 and the knot he describes there is, I believe,  a simple Noose Knot with a half-hitch securing it. The image below is what I think the knot he describes looks like. if so this simple knot seems to be a reasonable candidate for the required application.

A similar idea to the knot I proposed, however it is far less convoluted, though maybe not as secure. It is certainly easy to tie, size, and then cinch and 'lock' the eye in place.

Cheers,

mobius
Title: Re: I'm looking for an adjustable loop that won't slip--any ideas?
Post by: Twine on May 30, 2015, 08:25:49 PM
sorry for the image quality I kept retaking shots and no matter what I did with my camera and lighting it turned out less than idea

If you use a lighter background like gray or light brown instead of black, it will be easier for your camera to determine what exposure time will give the best picture. Extremely high or extremely low contrast in a motif will always be difficult to photograph.
Title: Re: I'm looking for an adjustable loop that won't slip--any ideas?
Post by: Mobius on May 31, 2015, 12:34:42 AM
sorry for the image quality I kept retaking shots and no matter what I did with my camera and lighting it turned out less than ideal

If you use a lighter background like gray or light brown instead of black, it will be easier for your camera to determine what exposure time will give the best picture. Extremely high or extremely low contrast in a motif will always be difficult to photograph.

Thanks for that advice. I will try doing so next time  :)
Title: Re: I'm looking for an adjustable loop that won't slip--any ideas?
Post by: alanleeknots on May 31, 2015, 01:53:52 AM
Hi All,
         More load test here, I have 7 and 8mm solid braid nylon rope, the 8mm is little softer. both are used rope.
         I mark the rope before I do the test, she is not slipping at all, and very easy to untie. 
         Next time I will test with bigger size ropes.
         Thanks again Xarax.
       
         謝謝  alan lee
Title: Re: I'm looking for an adjustable loop that won't slip--any ideas?
Post by: alanleeknots on May 31, 2015, 01:56:19 AM
         This is 8mm rope.

          謝謝  alan lee
Title: Re: I'm looking for an adjustable loop that won't slip--any ideas?
Post by: Mobius on May 31, 2015, 03:10:09 AM
I think it fair to say the knot collapsed

If you use 1mm line, a fishing line, your grand-mother s thread, or a broiled macaroni, it will collapse even more !  :)

I am having fun doing the trials in my material :)  Others are free to make up their own mind on the results I give. For what it is worth the rope material I am using is quite 'stiff' and not like broiled macaroni, though nowhere as stiff as fishing line  :)

Quote
Product Description

10m x 3mm Donaghys 16 Plait Polyester Cord
APPLICATIONS
Blind draw cords ( Venetian, Roman etc)
Marine & industrial & all general purpose cord uses
FEATURES & BENEFITS
16 plait smooth.
Soft handling, Smooth feel.
Strong & strength is not affected by water.
High abrasion resistance properties.
UV stabilised to combat harmful climatic conditions.

Again, for what it is worth, I think the Pretzel loop was troubled by how stiff my rope material is rather than it's size. I found the knot difficult to cinch for the first trial (I find it difficult to cinch in good quality 11mm kernmantle as well, one shake of the knot in mid air and the knot loosens). The second trial I bent the knot into a form that cinched much better. It held this time, though one could argue that the knot I trialled second time around wasn't a Pretzel loop due to quite a change to the knot's geometry :)

Perhaps eric22 might do a trial of the Pretzel loop in his rope materials and sizes. It would be interesting to know what happens.

Cheers,

mobius
Title: Re: I'm looking for an adjustable loop that won't slip--any ideas?
Post by: Mobius on May 31, 2015, 03:27:32 AM
Here is a knot inspired by the Pretzel loop. It is unlikely to be new, someone must have taken a clove hitch and made a slippery loop by feeding a bight through it. Regardless, let's call it a 'Slippery Clove Loop' for here. Edit: I see someone has done this loop before :) The knot I trialled was probably first called an "Exploding Clove Hitch" by Neil Compton in the "Knot Bible", from sources given here.

I was intrigued to see whether other crossing structure loops would 'misbehave' in my rope material. As is turns out this one did not. I think that is only because the clove allows the nub to be cinched well before load.

The second image is poor again (oh well, eventually a new camera or more photographic expertise will come my way ;) ), however it shows the knot I trialled on my test rig reasonably well.

The 3rd image is after I took the same knot to 115Kg. It held it's form as far as I am concerned and was very easy to untie afterwards.

Cheers,

mobius

Edit: added a 4th image, different only because the bight goes through the clove from the other side. Might be better (or worse) for some reason, though the knot seems to sit better after cinching to me.

Edit: This 4th form is the version xarax shows elsewhere as an "Exploding one-way hitch"
Title: Re: I'm looking for an adjustable loop that won't slip--any ideas?
Post by: xarax on May 31, 2015, 03:44:28 AM
   @Alan Lee

    This much-compressible / easily-flattened material you use allows the segments of the nub to be re-arranged, it fills the gaps between them, and it makes even mediocre nipping / gripping structures able to confront the slippage of the penetrating lines. In my stiff, slippery climbing ropes, which retain their almost circular cross section, this knot does not work as well.
Title: Re: I'm looking for an adjustable loop that won't slip--any ideas?
Post by: Mobius on May 31, 2015, 05:03:54 AM
... In my stiff, slippery climbing ropes, which retain their almost circular cross section, this knot does not work as well.

FWIW: My 3mm poly braid is stiff (more so than kernmantle) , slippery and retains it's circular cross section as well, that was one of the main reasons I chose to trial knots in it. That, and I could break it safely if I wanted to with a small scale test rig.

Cheers,

mobius
Title: Re: I'm looking for an adjustable loop that won't slip--any ideas?
Post by: xarax on June 01, 2015, 03:36:14 PM
   ANY simple enough, stable knot would nip/grip a penetrating line / a returning eye leg very efficiently, if this line enters in it and exits from it in the proper, optimum "Eskimo" like way, and follows an L-shaped path. The only thing we should avoid, is a too convoluted / too complex nub, which will absorb a great portion of the tension that otherwise would had reached the penetrating line more directly, without being dissipated across a larger area of the nub, or being obstructed by loosely tensioned segments.

  If we relax the TIB condition ( which led me to the Pretzel loop ), we do not even need to tie a double overhand knot -based nipping / gripping nub, as shown in my previous post (1) : the single overhand knot is enough. If we let the penetrating line enter into / exit from it as shown in the attached pictures, i.e., so that the overhand knot  "works" almost as a Clove hitch ( which, as we know, is a very tight knot when tied around ropes ), we get a quite satisfactory, simple and stable solution (*).
   All those nubs need not be clinched hard around themselves before they become loaded ! The only thing we should pay attention to, is to dress them correctly, so they will remain "balanced" when they will be pulled by their three limbs ( and they will nor rotate around themselves, or capsize ). As the nubs becomes more convoluted, they become more stable, but they also consume, within their own segments, a significant portion of the tension that would otherwise reach the penetrating line and increase the friction forces which will immobilize it.
   When we find such a tight nipping / gripping nub, the next thing we may think and try is to use it as base for a secure fixed eyeknot, by adding a collar, a-la-bowline - because it is natural to imagine that an already very tight nub, helped by a collar that reduces the tensile forces which reach the last segment of the Standing Part, would be an ever more secure solution. However, the fixed end-of-line loops, in general, and the bowlines, in particular, do NOT work like this. In the adjustable loops, we need as tight nubs as we can get, even if they may become almost jamming, because we have one, only, line of defence against the slippage of the returning eyeleg, while in the fixed loops, where the penetrating line can follow a much more convoluted path than an L-shaped one, and we can also have collars, it is the other way around ! The nipping structure of the bowline, the knot tied on the Standing Part before the eye, is based on TIB knots, which do not "close" around themselves, and run the danger to become difficult to untie. That is why we should better avoid ANY not-TIB knot on the Standing Part before the eye ( that is, a not-PET solution ), but we also be careful when we use such a knot even on the Standing Part after the eye - during a heavy loading, even the tension delivered on the nub through the returning eye leg ( which is 50% of the total ), can force the nub to clinch around itself too tightly, and become difficult to untie.

1.  http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=5322.msg35761#msg35761

(*) To be precise, the nub of the adjustable loop shown in this post has the geometry of a Clove X hitch ( X = crossed continuations of the ends into the nub ) - which, topologically, is not equivalent to the unknot any more, as the parent Clove hitch, but to the overhand knot. To some knot tyers, it would be easier, perhaps, to start from a Clove X hitch, and penetrate it by the returning eyeleg, than to start from an overhand knot.
Title: Re: I'm looking for an adjustable loop that won't slip--any ideas?
Post by: alanleeknots on June 03, 2015, 09:28:58 PM
Hi All,
         I have this convoluted wan't slip adjustable here, can support heavy load and easy to readjust loop.

        First picture, with 7 and 8mm  solid braid nylon rope, I mark the tail with tape, yellow is loses dressing, red tight dressing.

        First test pull as hard as I can, take a picture of both eyes still on tension, then I release it and take a picture,
        also check it, it was super easy on yollow tape loop, just easy on red side to untie.
        I reload the loop and pull it until it break, the yellow tape side' eye broken, and easy to untie the red side's eye.

        second test with 8mm rope, have the same result. for safty reason,I wrap a heavy blanket over the hook and rope, so can't  observe any thing. can't tell you anymore.
          謝謝  alan lee 
Title: Re: I'm looking for an adjustable loop that won't slip--any ideas?
Post by: alanleeknots on June 03, 2015, 09:31:58 PM
more picture
Title: Re: I'm looking for an adjustable loop that won't slip--any ideas?
Post by: alanleeknots on June 03, 2015, 09:32:57 PM
more picture
Title: Re: I'm looking for an adjustable loop that won't slip--any ideas?
Post by: xarax on June 03, 2015, 09:53:49 PM
   Yes, this is a much tighter/secure adjustable loop ! However, I still think that it has some segments which are not utilized very much - as this "lower" collar, for example. I believe you can simplify it even more - but, at the end, I believe you will arrive at loops with simpler, less convoluted nubs, based on the double overhand or the single overhand knot  :) :), like those at Replies#13 and #23 (1)(2).
   You can also try to figure out TIB solution, like the Pretzel loop. Do not underestimate the versatility and beauty of TIB knots !

1. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=5322.msg35761#msg35761
2. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=5322.msg35808#msg35808

P.S. I believe that this braided rope you use is very "compressible", and it is nipped / gripped rather easily. With a stiffer, kermantle, not so "compressible" rope, which retains its round cross section and it is not so easily squeezed and not so much "flattened", to be maximally effective, the nipping / gripping nubs cannot afford to have any "redundant" segments.
Title: Re: I'm looking for an adjustable loop that won't slip--any ideas?
Post by: Z on June 06, 2015, 05:00:10 PM
The point of the loop is to adjust the tension in the string by changing the effective length.

I'd probably go with a Trucker Hitch. I'd use a Span Loop as the "sheave" because you want things to stay in place once tension is lost. (A Bell Ringer is not an option.) With a Trucker Hitch, the adjustability is possible while the rope is under tension. Also, the security is absolute once you tie things off.

A minor downside is that you have to plan ahead and tie the Span Loop "sheave" at a good location. Otherwise, you'll have to untie and start over.
Title: Re: I'm looking for an adjustable loop that won't slip--any ideas?
Post by: xarax on June 06, 2015, 05:02:33 PM
the security is absolute once you tie things off.

   When you have a "sheave", you do not need to tie things off... Just pass the Working End through the bight for a second time, and in between the tip of the eye of the "sheave" and the tip of the bight of the previous passage. You form an opposing bights locking mechanism, which is most secure, without any additional knot.
Title: Re: I'm looking for an adjustable loop that won't slip--any ideas?
Post by: Ruby on July 29, 2015, 11:04:49 AM

   Will anyone of the gentlemen that had suggested those two loops EVER tie and try the Pretzel loop ?  Noope ! Will they ever "see" that it is more secure, more stable/balanced, more simple, more clever, more versatile knot ? NEVER !  :) :) :)
   Knot tyers are those who tie their own knots - and ignore everything else... ( However, this is probably the case with artists, in general ? )



because you didn't try best to sell it?

there seems to be no post titled "Pretzel loop".

searched "Pretzel loop", the first post is :
A tying method of the Pretzel "Eskimo" - like loop.

is it?
Title: Re: I'm looking for an adjustable loop that won't slip--any ideas?
Post by: xarax on July 29, 2015, 12:22:41 PM
   You should use the "Advanced Search", in this Forum s Search engine, or in Google s.
   Search for the words "Pretzel loop". You would find many posts referring to this knot... Then, going backwards in time, you will find the original post.
   
Title: Re: I'm looking for an adjustable loop that won't slip--any ideas?
Post by: jarnos on November 21, 2020, 01:17:16 PM
Hi All,
         I have this convoluted wan't slip adjustable here, can support heavy load and easy to readjust loop.

I think it is neat knot. It is easy to loosen and untie, when it is not under load. It is post-eye-tiable. It is also tiable-in-the-bend, if you use slipped loop in the working end.
Title: Re: I'm looking for an adjustable loop that won't slip--any ideas?
Post by: jarnos on November 23, 2020, 09:40:19 PM
Hi All,
         I have this convoluted wan't slip adjustable here, can support heavy load and easy to readjust loop.

I made a short video about this knot: Though I am not aware of any special name for the knot, but yes, it is convoluted. It is easier to untie than Pretzel loop in my experience.