International Guild of Knot Tyers Forum

General => New Knot Investigations => Topic started by: xarax on April 26, 2015, 01:10:24 PM

Title: Plait loop - a versatile TIB,EEL, PETEE eyeknot
Post by: xarax on April 26, 2015, 01:10:24 PM
   Recently, it was pointed out that a TIB loop would be more versatile ( and safer, because it would not run the danger to be tied in the "wrong" orientation ) if it could be loaded by either end ( Either End Loadable, or EEL ). However, if a loop can be loaded by either end, it would be great if it can also be tied in-the-end as PET from either end, too - PETEE ( Post Eye Tiable, Either End ) - for a number of reasons :
   1st. PET loops are, most of the times, easy to untie ( that is the greatest advantage of the bowline ), because the knot tied on the Standing Part before the eye is topologically equivalent to the unknot, so it is not a "closed" on itself knot, which can accumulate and lock within it the induced tensile forces, like the overhand knot or the fig.8 knot, for example - which, if/when heavily loaded, it may become difficult to untie, or even it may jam. With the exception of the Clove hitch and the Constrictor, most "nipping structures" tied on the Standing Part before the eye, in most PET loops, generate loops that are easy to untie. Therefore, if we want a loop which can be loadable by either end, it is reasonable to expect that if both knots tied on the Standing Part are PET, the one before the eye ( the "nipping structure" ), and the other after / post the eye ( the "collar structure" - which I call like this to retain a correspondence with the common bowline ), the loop would be easy to untie regardless the end by which it had happened to be loaded.
   2nd. I have seen that, even loaded by the 50% of the total load, the knot tied after / post the eye, the "collar structure") may become difficult to untie, if it is an overhand knot or a fig.8 knot.
   3rd.  Even a TIB loop which has been tied in-the-bight for any reason ( some loops can be tied in-the-bight more easily and quickly than in-the-end ), may happen to have to be untied in-the-end, so it would be great if there is no "relic" knot left on the one end, if the loop is untied by releasing the other end.
   4th. Last, but not least : Versatility. No knot tyer would ever question that value !

   The loop presented in this post would, most probably, have been tied many times in the past ( I, for one, had tied many times, while I was exploring many different families of loops ), but, after the "new" EEL and the PETEE conditions, I decided to re-evaluate it - and I now believe it is OK : it is TIB, EEL and PETEE, and it is a nice knot ( well, if we view it from the one "flat" side, which looks like a plait - hence its new name. We can only say that the other side was not kissed by the Graces... :)  However, that second side in not sooo ugly, so the net outcome, regarding beauty, is a knot above the average. )
   As I said, one can reach it from many different starting posts : it is a modified Englishman s knot, a re-tucked TIB Samisen bowline, a "Span bend" turned into an eyeknot, a variation of the ABoK#1055, etc. (*)
   The important thing is that it is a most versatile eyeknot, which we should explore further.
   
   
   In the Englishman knot(s), we can replace the two overhand knots (ABoK#1038), or the two fig.8 knots (ABoK#1040), with two interlinked crossing-knots. ( It was the geometry of the initial overhand knots or fig.8 knots we needed - so the ends of the loops could be locked securely inside the nub(s) by following convoluted enough paths - not the topology ! ) Doing this, we manage to transform the Englishman knot(s) into the PET TIB loop(s).
   
   Take the Samisen bowline.. Re-tuck the Tail End through the collar.
   Say Hocus Pocus, or, Abracadabra 
- whatever of the two spells you wish, but it is imperative for you to say it, otherwise nothing will happen ! Then, try to release the eyeknot without using any of the two Ends : you will see that it became a TIB knot, and that now it can be tied starting from, or untied ending to, the unknot. Another interesting TIB bowline, worth of further examination.


P.S. 2015-05-17. As Alpineer indicated, the Plait loop can be considered a variation of the ABoK#1056 - and can be tied in-the-bight in exactly the same way, if we just "push" the lower collar of ABoK#1056 all the way "upwards", to the top of the nub. If it is identical to the ABoK#1056 or not, is a subtle matter, because we do not know yet if the one knot can capsize into the other under heavy and/or non-favourable, not-symmetric ( regarding the ends and/or eyelegs ) loading. If they can, they should be considered identical - if they can not, then they should be considered as two forms of a "bistable knot" .
   I have, by now, learned to tie the Plait loop in a different way, and it may be difficult to me to "turn back", and tie it as I tie the ABoK#1056 loop !  :) Also, the way I tie the Plait loop generates the Plait loop immediately, without it having to pass through the intermediate stage of ABoK#1056 - and so I guess I will continue to tie it like this. However, knot tyers who had nod learned the way I show, may also tie it following the very simple way Ashley shows for the tying of the ABoK#1056.
Title: Re: Plait loop - a versatile TIB, PEET, EEL eyeknot
Post by: xarax on April 26, 2015, 01:14:58 PM
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Title: Re: Plait loop - a versatile TIB, PEET, EEL eyeknot
Post by: Tex on April 27, 2015, 02:45:08 PM
It does well on looks, much better than some of that double collared pretzel ugliness.

I've been playing with the double dragon.  Seems to get little attention.  I don't know how reliable it is loaded every which way.  I saw that you don't like the doubleness of it on philosophical grounds.  I don't quite find that fair in the case of that knot because I don't find that the single should really count as when you flatten it, the single is just a weave, not a loop at all.  I guess my defense is your critique. 

Anyway, the double dragon gets little discussion although it's included in many top 10 lists.  How do you think it fits in?   Oh as for ease of tying, you said something once about 2d being easier or methods being easier.  For me, I need to understand a knot, in 3d, to remember it.  Once I understood the DD, I can tie it on the the end of the rope easily upside down, backwards, flat, or around my finger.
Title: Re: Plait loop - a versatile TIB, PEET, EEL eyeknot
Post by: Tex on April 27, 2015, 03:34:16 PM
I meant the tugboat.  the loop I meant was the collar or whatever it is.  I wasn't trying to say a single dragon isn't an actual loop not.  I just mean the first loop of the double loops, doesn't really count as a loop to me.  I mean I fully understand the complete difference in action of the first vs second loop so I don't find it fair to say, the knot is so weak it has to be doubled.  I mean yes, but.   You didn't exactly want to say that either though.  I don't want to misrepresent.  Clearly you just had well, a bad feel about it.   

I don't know about tying it under tension or one handed, but it ties in a bight or through a hole just fine.
Title: Re: Plait loop - a versatile TIB, PEET, EEL eyeknot
Post by: xarax on April 27, 2015, 05:27:14 PM
   Here is a way the loose knot of this loop may be "flattened" out. I had tried to retain the "symmetry" of the two interlocked crossing knots, and to show that it can be tied in-the-end starting from the one or the other end ( versatility !  :)). The two crossing knots are shown as two inter-weaved φ-shaped knots, topologically equivalent to the unknot. ( The lower-case Greek letter φ ( phi)(1), is used as symbol for numerous mathematical, physical and computer quantities - it will certainly do no harm if it is used in practical knotting, too.  :) Alan Lee has tied many beautiful, secure bowline-like knots ( although most of them are somewhat more complex than this Plait loop ), where the nipping and/or the collar structure is shaped like a phi ).   

1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phi

P.S. We may say that, in the particular loose-knot form shown at the attached picture, the two interlinked φ-shaped knots remind the "similar" two links of the ABoK#1451 bend - only that there they are linked in an axially symmetric way, and not in a point symmetric way, as here.
Title: Re: Plait loop - a versatile TIB, PEET, EEL eyeknot
Post by: alpineer on April 27, 2015, 09:24:26 PM
Probably better used in it's ABoK #1054 Farmer's Loop form.
Title: Re: Plait loop - a versatile TIB, PEET, EEL eyeknot
Post by: enhaut on April 27, 2015, 09:51:36 PM
Well put Alpineer!
And from Ashley's we also gain the benefit of the tying method :)
Title: Re: Plait loop - a versatile TIB, PEET, EEL eyeknot
Post by: xarax on April 27, 2015, 11:59:31 PM
   Two topologically equivalent knots are not identical !
   Otherwise the unknot, or better, the straight line  :), would had been the same knot as any TIB loop, any TIB loop would had been the same with any else, etc...
   It is GEOMETRY which determines how a knot behaves, so what a knot is, not the topology !  (Just HOW many times should one say something, to be heard ? )
   However, one can say, indeed, that the Farmer s loop and the Plait loop are "similar" - only that the Plait loop looks like a PLAIT, and the Farmer s loop looks like... a farmers whatever.  :) :)
   As for the tying method of the Farmer s loop ( which generates the Farmer s loop, of course ) it is, indeed, the WORST tying method shown in ABoK ! Well spotted, enhaut !  :)  If one likes to present knotting as kind of magic, full of magic tricks and myths ( in order to present himself as magician... :) ), there is NO better way than the Farmer s-loop, tied by this "reasonable" to Farmer s-taste method.
   The Plait loop is made from two almost identical crossing knots, the one tied in the Standing Part before the eye, and the other in the Standing Part after/post the eye -but, staring from either end, it is an either end PET loop. And it is made from such crossing knots, because I have seen that they are easily untied, even after heavy loading - while the Farmer s loop tangle is... well, a Farmer s tangle !  :) :) If one persuades me that the Farmer s loop is as easily untied, when loaded by either end ( EEL ), as the Plait s loop, then we can start discussing which is better. Of course, I doubt it : the segments of the first curves of the Farmer s loop are so much interweaved around each other, that I think that the loop would be turned into a farmer s rock piece of tangled rope. However, I think that I can safely say that the Farmer s loop is the most ugly of all Ashley s TIB loops - while the Plait loop is above average.( And "most ugly', also means difficult to inspect ... When there is no pattern, our brain can not find any mental handle to remember the correct form of a shape.)
   In the Plait loop - which is the loops which looks like a plait, and it is an Englishman s knot where the overhand or the fig.8 knots have been replaced by crossing knots - I see a bight of a TIB knot turned into a higher collar, so I use the GENERAL method which generates all such loops, the "haltered collar" method. Try it...
   When you guys see a knot, try to "see" it as it is, and do not try to rehearse every recipe you have learned when you were young !  :) I do not see ANY relation between the Plait loop and the Farmer s loop - perhaps because I am not a farmer... :) The Scot s TIB bowline and the Ampersand bowline are topologically identical, but geometrically so different knots, that I find it difficult to re-dress the one into the other - and I doubt if Scot himself has ever bothered to do it.  :) Of course, with simpler loops, as the Plait loop and the Farmer s loop, things are easier, but still NOT so easy. Perhaps that is why I have not seen the Plait loop anywhere - although the Farmer s loop, and its "magic" = not-so-clever way of tying it, has been parroted thousands of times !
   I, too, wonder why Ashley has not tied the Plait loop, although he had the bend from which he could start, the Span bend (1). He preferred to tie the ABoK#1055 instead, which is also a good TIB loop, probably better from the Farmer s loop - but not from the Plait loop.

1.http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4692.0   
Title: Re: Plait loop - a versatile TIB, PEET, EEL eyeknot
Post by: roo on April 28, 2015, 03:02:22 AM
Probably better used in it's ABoK #1054 Farmer's Loop form.
Good eye, alpineer.  By chance did you discover the relationship by loading the parent line of the unloaded loop and notice it capsize back to its Farmer's Loop origin?
Title: Re: Plait loop - a versatile TIB, PEET, EEL eyeknot
Post by: alpineer on April 28, 2015, 03:38:48 AM
Probably better used in it's ABoK #1054 Farmer's Loop form.
Good eye, alpineer.  By chance did you discover the relationship by loading the parent line of the unloaded loop and notice it capsize back to its Farmer's Loop origin?

Yes, that's correct roo.
Title: A Plait noose ( find the plait ! )
Post by: xarax on April 28, 2015, 05:06:49 AM
   It is really funny what a knot tyers needs to say, for obscure reasons, when does not have anything to say !
   Alpineer, enhaut ( who are knot tyers ), and "roo" ( who hopes he will become one, someday...), had imagined ( with their (minds) eyes wide shut, I guess...  :)) that the Plait loop is the same knot with the Farmer s loop, and even that the one can "capsize" into the other...
   So, I decided to offer them a gift, to congratulate them for their "correct" views...
   A pattern for a plait, which they will give to their girl friends, to weave their long, beautiful hair.
   It is nothing but a "capsized" Plait loop, or, according to those knot tyers, to the identical Farmer s loop, which has degenerated into a noose, topologically equivalent to the Plait loop, the Farmer s loop, and who knows to which other tangle...
   Now, I will wait patiently for their girl friends opinion on this beautiful pattern.  :)
   ( If I will do this, KnotGod will send me straight to the KnotHell !  :) - and a farmer who uses the Farmer s loop, to the pit of the pigs !  :) )
   I have seen such an ugly tungly recently ( see the attached picture ), presented by Twine, at :
   http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=5247.msg34345#msg34345
   I believe that is the worst Helical knot there can exist in the KnotLand !
   http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=5247.msg34352#msg34352
   However, it is a nice plait, is nt it ?  :)  :)
Title: Re: Plait loop - a versatile TIB, PEET, EEL eyeknot
Post by: agent_smith on April 28, 2015, 08:22:50 AM
Quote
Alpineer, enhaut ( who are knot tyers ), and "roo" ( who hopes he will become one, someday...), had imagined ( with their (minds) eyes wide shut, I guess.

Quote
Now, I will wait patiently for their girl friends opinion on this beautiful pattern

Hi Xarax,

I'm not sure if you will win too many friends here with these types of comments - even though you might see them as humorous.

I certainly like your work and your contributions to knotting knowledge in general.

Mark
Title: Re: Plait loop - a versatile TIB, PEET, EEL eyeknot
Post by: xarax on April 28, 2015, 10:26:36 AM
   I am sure Alpineer will appreciate my sense of humour ( which, when it bites a little more, he prefers to call "sarcasm"  :) - however, I believe that when sarcasm is referring to one s self, and then only, it is even better than humour ), and enhaut is a good, creative knot tyer, only a little too serious with his own work. Roo, on the other hand...<edit> His signature tells all about him, in relation to me.
   Thanks for the encouragement.
   I have tried to show, time and again, that the topology does not uniquely determine the geometry, hence the structure and the physical properties of the practical knots which matter for us ( slippage, strength, easiness to tie and, especially, to untie ) - but also some properties difficult to measure : easiness to be inspected, memorized, remembered, be understood, be appreciated, and be loved. If one does not "see" any differences in all those aspects between the Plait loop and the Farmer s loop, then, well, it not my fault !  :)
   Having said that, I should also say that even a great knot tyer, Roger E. Miles, had not understood very well this issue. He tried to determine his knots and their symmetries by their 2D tying diagrams, and so he missed knots topologically equivalent to some of them, but geometrically different. There is a kind of subtle seductive power in the representation of the loose, "flattened" knot, that is, in the representation of its topological, mostly, properties, which misleads many people. The human mind is thriving for the very simple, even for the simplistic - and the 3D paths of the rope(s) in space are not sooo simple.
   I had always tried to 'see" the knots beyond their particular tying methods, and their 2D diagrams, as they are in 3D space, as 3D rope structures / mechanisms. When one is prepared for that, he can decide in a glance if a knot is the "same" with another, or not - and he can "see" that the Plait loop and the Farmer s loop have no real similarity: although the one can be re-dressed to the other, and they can be represented by the same topological diagram, their properties are different, and, last but not least, the former is less ugly than the later !  :)
   Knots are tools, but also toys for men - if some knot tyers can not enjoy one soundly constructed and good looking knot, they deserve to suffer a little teasing !  :)
   
Title: Re: Plait loop - a versatile TIB, PEET, EEL eyeknot
Post by: enhaut on April 28, 2015, 01:55:08 PM
Quote
and enhaut is a good, creative knot tyer, only a little too serious with his own work.

That's a good one  :D and look who is speaking...

Regarding Xarax, given the nature of his tying works "in my mind eye" I always refer to him as the Retucking Master which I am sure he will not find offensive...

Seriously I find the Plait loop ok but not that good. Playing and tugging at all ends showed in my trials too much movement inside the nub whick can lead to early abrasion of the rope.
It's just a serious opinion  :)
Title: Re: Plait loop - a versatile TIB, PEET, EEL eyeknot
Post by: Tex on April 28, 2015, 03:47:11 PM
Well I'm going to start using that double dragon for awhile. It's cake to tie and I find nothing wrong with it needing two loops. It's still not more rope than many secure bowlines etc and the question then is just does it work as well. 

For the dragon, the first dragon loop is not really a nip at all and not really even a loop at all.  The reason I couldn't think to call it a nip or a collar is because really, to me,  it seems like more of a locking pin in on the first go around but for nipping it's structered as if you twisted the bowline rabbit hole backwards, ie it's nothing(*).  It only becomes a nip  (for purposes of tensioning from the tail), on the full turn (2nd turn).   Ok you can complain that's why it's bad, but I won't fault the thing for not nipping well before it even has a nip.  I'd rather fault a bowline for not nipping well enough when it DOES have a nip. 

I'm not sure this will be a favorite knot, but it's going in the tool bag for a little while especially since nobody seems to have a good reason for it not to be. 

*Actually with a tiny modification for exactly that, tucking the dragon's tail under itself instead of over while passing through the S-part loop, then the first pass of the tail does nip and you get with a "single" version a different loop knot, that I think also has a name, seems clearly better than a tugboat, but is I think not TIB and I suspect it jams.
Title: Re: Plait loop - a versatile TIB, PEET, EEL eyeknot
Post by: xarax on April 28, 2015, 04:29:19 PM
Playing and tugging at all ends showed in my trials too much movement inside the nub whick can lead to early abrasion of the rope.

   Enhaut, we were searching for an EEL loop, not for an alternatively loadable loop ( ALP ) !   :) :)
   If the nub is rock solid during one-after-the-other end loading, it will be rock solid during untying, too...
   However, I am sure that you had tied the knot in-the-end, and you had not pre-tightened it enough.
   I am not aware of ANY other such TIB, PET starting from either end, EEL, easy to untie loop, so, until I learn something, I will keep it in my pantheon.
   The important fact that you may not realize, is that the crossing-knot-based loops  (which are relatively unknown and unexplored ) are always very easy to untie. The nipping structure of a crossing knot is, from its geometry, incapable to "close" around itself, and accumulate tensile forces, like rope-made ratchet. If we do not want to use crossing knots, we go back to the realm of bowlines ( which are more stable ), but then we get much more inner-nub motion...
   See the bowline shown at (1) and at the attached pictures.
   Also, the most interesting fact of the Plait loop, is that it is looks like a plait loop !   :) ( ( well, if you see it from the proper side !  :)). And that means that it is easily, and instantly, inspect-able - one should not underestimate this. In an EEL  TIB loop, the task is to have a loop that can not be tied "wrongly", and be loaded by the "wrong" side, so it means a knot that is easily tied, dressed and inspected.
   I repeat, we want a loop that can be loaded by the one, the other, or both ends, NOT an in-line loop, which can be loaded alternately by the two sides of the long line...

1.  http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4603.msg29705#msg29705
 
   
Title: Re: Plait loop - a versatile TIB, PEET, EEL eyeknot
Post by: xarax on April 28, 2015, 06:17:28 PM
   I though that all knot tyers would had understood, right from the first post, that a TIB and EEL and PET ( starting from either end ) loop, would, most of the times, be tied in-the-bight, and not in-the-end. However, part of the versatility of this loop is that it can be tied and untied in-the-(one) end, without leaving any "relic" knot in the other end.
   Now, I had seen that people jumped to easy conclusions AFTER the moment I had shown the 2D diagram of the loose knot, which is just a representation of the topology of the knot, NOT its geometry - so, it is not a recommendation of any tying method in-the-end ! I had wished to show the symmetry of the configuration (regarding the two crossing knots before AND after the eye ), which is retained in the compact, final form of the knot, the only form that matters !
   If one tries to tie this loop in the end, he may dress it wrongly, because he will not pay due attention to the simple fact ( which I keep repeating again and again in this thread ), that this in NOT the Farmer s loop, this is a crossing knot based eyeknot, and that it remains such an eyeknot when it is loaded by either end ! Therefore, he should first UNDERSTAND / "see" this obvious fact, and only tie the knot afterwards ! If you do not want to keep the crossing knots, the one or the other, you may straighten one of them up, and tie a different knot !
   I am not sure which is the best way to tie this knot in-the-end - from which of the two crossing knots one should better start to tie it... I guess it will depend on the experience one has with the tying of the particular knot, and tying it with a particular tying method ( one of the many one can figure out ).
   However, given the "purpose" of this loop, I am mostly interested in tying it in-the-bight. And it can be tied in-the-bight very easily, indeed, in a conceptually easy way, during which the knot tyer can WATCH the overall shape of the knot, and see the "upper" bight be transformed into the "higher" collar around the end (1). This is what the "haltering/haltered collar" method achieves. If one ties it following that method, he will not run the danger to straighten out any of the two geometrically and structurally indispensable, necessary, essential crossing knots. - and he will not run the danger to tie the difficult to inspect / ugly Farmer s loop instead !  :)

1. Another description of this advantage, at   
   http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4695.msg33927#msg33927

  ( Click to enlarge the second picture )

P.S. 2015-05-17. As Alpineer indicated, the Plait loop can be tied exactly as Ashley shows the tying of the ABoK#1056. Those two loops may be considered as variations of each other, iff any one of them can capsize to the other under heavy loading - or under a special, rare, but possible nevertheless loading ( through this end and that eyeleg, for example ).
After one has tied the ABoK#1056, he just have to "push" the lower collar of it all the way to the top of the nub, and tie the Plait loop. I believe that this is a very simple method to tie it in-the-bight, and, as it is well-known already because of is popularization by Ashley, it may well become the method of choice for most knot tyers. Personally, I can not "switch" my mind yet, because I have learned the method I show in this post, which generates the final Plait loop, without the "intermediate" stage of the ABoK#1056.
Title: Re: Plait loop - a versatile TIB, PEET, EEL eyeknot
Post by: Tex on April 29, 2015, 02:07:46 AM
Well in your first picture it was clear that it was a bowline but with backwards passage through the hole both times, so yes clearly tying it in a bight is just this.  That's when I realized I had tied this many times, but probably dressed it the ugly way.
Title: Re: Plait loop - a versatile TIB, PEET, EEL eyeknot
Post by: xarax on April 29, 2015, 02:55:27 AM
   When I say " reeve the whole knot through this bight ", I mean to do what leads to the same result as this act - in fact, you just let the bight itself "swallow" the whole knot, moving it first "downwards", then around the whole knot, and then "upwards" again, to become the collar.
   Dan Lehman calls this a "flype", but my knowledge of the Scottish dialect  :) tells me that "flype" is something else, in which you do not turn the whole thing inside out, like a glove, but half of it ( the word is used for women s long socks, and the act of grasping the inside heel of the sock and pulling it out half-way, to wear the sock more easily ).
   Ashley uses this technique many times, but he does not offer a name for it. See, for example, how he ties the Double Ring hitch ( ABoK#1126 ).
Title: Re: Plait loop - a versatile TIB,EEL, PETEE eyeknot
Post by: Tex on May 02, 2015, 04:21:19 PM
I was trying to tie this thing with the end of the rope and I instead accidentally tied a loop with a box stitch knot, the first layer of one of these:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scoubidou


Title: Re: Plait loop - a versatile TIB,EEL, PETEE eyeknot
Post by: Tex on May 02, 2015, 04:51:10 PM
This seems to happen if the rabbit loses his sense of direction and goes the wrong way around the tree, which shouldn't be too surprising seeing as this rabbit is already very confused to find himself going around a tree after having just gown down a hole.   The interesting thing is that either way around he goes, his result path has remarkable symmetry.
Title: Re: Plait loop - a versatile TIB,EEL, PETEE eyeknot
Post by: Tex on May 03, 2015, 01:44:41 AM
Well I can't tie it through or around something in the bight obviously.  You can tie it in the end.  I don't get the big warning.  It's not a great TIE knot because going the wrong way around the tree does result in the box stitch loop (which isn't so bad), but it's not the only knot anywhere that can be tied wrong. 

Title: Re: Plait loop - a versatile TIB,EEL, PETEE eyeknot
Post by: Tex on May 03, 2015, 02:08:47 AM
Hey if it makes you feel any better, both of your flat layouts told me all the same information for either TIB or TIE.  Once you've tied a few of these the transformation of this information becomes pretty immediately clear, other than maybe getting confused about the direction around the tree, a type of information that our brains, or mine at least, do not seem great at holding on to.  The problem of course is that you must find a reference point to remember it from.  I think our brains are well adapted to remembering how to go somewhere, but it is rare that we find ourselves needing to follow directions around a mirror symmetric city to our own.
Title: Re: Plait loop - a versatile TIB,EEL, PETEE eyeknot
Post by: Tex on May 03, 2015, 04:57:17 PM
Quote
If you can not distinguish how to tie a common or an "Eskimo" bowline ( and you still see rabbits and trees... :) ), please, do NOT tie this loop ! 

I can distinguish those just fine and I think if you cannot distinguish between simplistic and playfully  expedient speech then you should not respond to others with your (mis)judgements about their thoughts. 

I will tie whatever knot I please however I please, and it pleases me to tie this one in the end.  I also don't need your warnings to figure out if I've dressed a knot into a different manner or form. I happen to have two functioning eyes (which informed me of the error, but not the error you seem to think, maybe because you don't know how to tie the knot I describe) and I am sorry for those who do not.  I also don't engage the brain on every single turn of every single knot, because a, it's not always necessary, b, it's just a knot, c) the brain will engage anyway in a second or two when the eyes alert it.   
Title: Re: Plait loop - a versatile TIB,EEL, PETEE eyeknot
Post by: Tex on May 03, 2015, 05:24:16 PM
By the way xarax it seems pretty clear that you find this knot much harder to tie in the end than I do, because I don't find it to be very hard.  Yes, if the hands are left to run loose for a moment without thought or practice there are some wrong ways to possibly do it, but I don't find it to be such a monumental challenge, or really any challenge at all, as you seem you, which seems a little ironic to me, wouldn't you agree?
Title: Re: Plait loop - a versatile TIB,EEL, PETEE eyeknot
Post by: Tex on May 03, 2015, 05:27:51 PM
Quote
When you will start tying a number of TIB knots using it, you will see that you would prefer it over any in-the-end method. As I said many times :

I have tied a NUMBER of TIB loops using it and you continue to make assumptions.  I also am very aware of the correspondence between the steps needed to tie a TIB loop this way (even one I've only just seen) and the steps needed to tie one in the end.  Maybe you are not.  Tied TIB can still not pass the loop through another loop or a around a pole with fixed ends.  Not everyone use biners for everything.
Title: Re: Plait loop - a versatile TIB,EEL, PETEE eyeknot
Post by: Tex on May 03, 2015, 05:34:48 PM
Well, I cannot speak for them either nor you for me nor can anyone really even speak for themselves as sometimes we get things and sometimes we don't and with no clear for reason.  This is actually a very well studied aspect of neural networks which all humans posses.  What I know is I am very capable of getting such things, have in many other cases, and that certainly in this instance I do.  I cannot promise to never be confused over such a thing at a later date and mental condition.  Nobody can.  But I will not forget what this PARTICULAR knot looks like dressed correctly vs incorrectly.  As I already told you, I have seen it both ways.
Title: Re: Plait loop - a versatile TIB,EEL, PETEE eyeknot
Post by: roo on May 04, 2015, 12:32:23 AM
  Personally, I can not tell, because I do not know how other people "see" it... I do not ignore that experienced knot tyers, as Alpineer, enhaut and roo, were misled and believed it is identical to the Farmer s loop -
 
Rather than calling it "identical", people have noticed that the loop capsizes into the common Farmer's Loop when the loop is unloaded and the parent line sees tension, as often happens in applications involving midline loops. 

Surely you must have experienced this by now.
Title: Re: Plait loop - a versatile TIB,EEL, PETEE eyeknot
Post by: Tex on May 04, 2015, 12:48:37 AM
As for the TIB preview representation vs fully tied 2D representation, the ONLY difference on which side of the knot (usually SE) the end of the collar resides.  That you cannot imagine that I might be able to imagine the loop of the collar being on the other side from one representation or the other, is very unimaginative of you. 

If anything, the issue of how to dress it seems more ambiguous in the un-collared version, at least to my neural network but in either case is equally easy if you know which dressing you're trying to achieve.  I did not see anything in posts indicating that anyone thought the two ways of dressing it were the same dressing.  Tying it in the end can be more "difficult" I think but not for the reasons you've stated.

Title: Re: Plait loop - a versatile TIB,EEL, PETEE eyeknot
Post by: xarax on May 04, 2015, 12:51:45 AM
...the loop capsizes into the common Farmer's Loop when the loop is unloaded and the parent line sees tension.

   When "the loop is unloaded"  ? Wake up ! This is NOT an inline loop ! Does it look to you like such a loop ?
   Oh, my KnotGod, what people "notice", when they try, desperately, to deny the OBVIOUS !
   Instead, they should do something else ! Or enjoy what they are doing, as they are doing it ! ( That is what I do, with ping pong... :))
   LOOK at this loop ! I had provided many clear enough pictures, taken from different angles. Does it seems to you like an inline loop ? Does it seems like the ugly tungly Farmer s loop ?
   I tied a loop that can be loaded by EITHER end, NOT by BOTH ends AND remain unloaded in the same time ! The PET loop ( which the Plait loop replaced in my pantheon, because it is not only PET, but also PETEE ), was also meant to be such a loop, which, if it was loaded only by its ends, and remained unloaded AS A LOOP, would deform into something else.
   The fact that the Butterfly loop can do what you describe, does not mean that all loops should be able to do the same. The Butterfly loop, for example, is not PETEE, not even PET ( because it is two merged slipped overhand knots ), and so becomes difficult to untie after heavy loading.

   Surely you must have experienced this by now... :) :) :)

( Note : I had said it once again, but I will not say it again ! THERE IS NO "PARENT LINE" IN THIS LOOP ! It is symmetric, in structure and function of both the crossing knot that make it, and their limbs )
Title: Re: Plait loop - a versatile TIB,EEL, PETEE eyeknot
Post by: roo on May 04, 2015, 01:23:33 AM
...the loop capsizes into the common Farmer's Loop when the loop is unloaded and the parent line sees tension.

   When "the loop is unloaded"  ? Wake up ! This is NOT an inline loop ! Does it look to you like such a loop ?
   Oh, my KnotGod, what people "notice", when they try, desperately, to deny the OBVIOUS !
   Instead, they should do something else ! Or enjoy what they are doing, as they are doing it ! ( That is what I do, with ping pong... :))
   LOOK at this loop ! I had provided many clear enough pictures, taken from different angles. Does it seems to you like an inline loop ? Does it seems like the ugly tungly Farmer s loop ?
   I tied a loop that can be loaded by EITHER end, NOT by BOTH ends AND remain unloaded in the same time ! The PET loop ( which the Plait loop replaced in my pantheon, because it is not only PET, but also PETEE ), was also meant to be such a loop, which, if it was loaded only by its ends, and remained unloaded AS A LOOP, would deform into something else.
   The fact that the Butterfly loop can do what you describe, does not mean that all loops should be able to do the same. The Butterfly loop, for example, is not PETEE, not even PET ( because it is two merged slipped overhand knots ), and so becomes difficult to untie after heavy loading.

   Surely you must have experienced this by now... :) :) :)

( Note : I had said it once again, but I will not say it again ! THERE IS NO "PARENT LINE" IN THIS LOOP ! It is symmetric, in structure and function of both the crossing knot that make it, and their limbs )
I think this is as close as we're going to get to xarax admitting that the loop is a form of the Farmer's Loop. 

Aside from this, the very fact that the loop is presented as tied-in-the-bight and either-end loadable indicates that there is plenty of rope going in both directions that could therefore easily transmit tension before the loop sees load, even if this tension is unintentional, again causing the loop to assume its Farmer's Loop origin.
Title: Re: Plait loop - a versatile TIB,EEL, PETEE eyeknot
Post by: Tex on May 04, 2015, 01:44:06 AM
  Personally, I can not tell, because I do not know how other people "see" it... I do not ignore that experienced knot tyers, as Alpineer, enhaut and roo, were misled and believed it is identical to the Farmer s loop -
 
Rather than calling it "identical", people have noticed that the loop capsizes into the common Farmer's Loop when the loop is unloaded and the parent line sees tension, as often happens in applications involving midline loops. 

Surely you must have experienced this by now.

I never noticed anywhwere where anyone in any comment seemed unable to recognize the different forms as at least differences in dressing.  At most there was disagreement about the significance of the difference, either at a given moment or on the whole due to things like this capsizing. I find xarax's false implication that anyone could not distinguish them, using this to defend his justification for arrogance and assumptions about the thoughts of others, I found it to be a backhanded jab at others weakly disguised as a compliment (maybe because even this, being better than greats, helps his own ego all the more).

Title: Re: Plait loop - a versatile TIB,EEL, PETEE eyeknot
Post by: xarax on May 04, 2015, 01:46:42 AM
I think this is as close as we're going to get to xarax admitting that the loop is a form of the Farmer's Loop.

  It is not - as the Farmer s loop is not a form of the Plait loop, as you should say, if you believe in what you say !
  You have not understood a thing about what I am saying all this time - difference of "topology" and "geometry", remember ? :)
  If you can not distinguish between them, ask Tex to help you  :).
  I wonder, do you consider yourself "a form of" Ashley ?  :) The same kind of atoms, recombined in a slightly different way...

...there is plenty of rope going in both directions that could therefore easily transmit tension before the loop sees load, even if this tension is unintentional, again causing the loop to assume its Farmer's Loop origin.

  What one can discover ( or should I say : invent ), if he tries as hard as you to persuade himself !  :)
  The previous sentence is monumental ! A great piece of knotting litterature !
  I dedicate it to Tex !  :) :) :) His neural networks would be able to digest its nonsense ( even if they can not digest his hormones), I am sure !
   (  Just edit it a little bit, because the word "directions", the last time I looked at Google s translator, means something else... Both ends are going to / coming from the same direction. Wake up, or stop pretending you "see" things that do not exist ! The ends of this loop go to the same direction, it is not an inline loop, tied in the middle of a tensioned line, where the eye can be loaded, or not. ) 
  Oh, my KnotGod !
Title: Re: Plait loop - a versatile TIB,EEL, PETEE eyeknot
Post by: Tex on May 04, 2015, 02:00:36 AM
What is the point of a knot being tie-able (un-tiable) from either end without a relic, if it is only to be tied in (at/near) the end of the rope (but never with the end of the rope, unless you're a knot god like xarax)?  Why, if I have the tail in my hand, would I ever untie the knot using the standing end, and if for some reason I did, then how could I still possibly care about the relic, being as now neither end of the rope is attached to anything, and both are now in my hands?

Title: Re: Plait loop - a versatile TIB,EEL, PETEE eyeknot
Post by: roo on May 04, 2015, 03:15:43 AM
{...]are shown with their ends going to opposite directions, people like roo insist that ALL loops should be like this, and loaded like this, and there can be no other loop different than them...
::) Once again, I did not say this. 
Title: Re: Plait loop - a versatile TIB,EEL, PETEE eyeknot
Post by: xarax on May 04, 2015, 07:40:06 AM
   You did not say anything ( that makes sense...) !
   You wrote this nonsense :
people have noticed that the loop capsizes into the common Farmer's Loop when the loop is unloaded and the parent line sees tension, as often happens in applications involving midline loops. 

   My Google translator tells me that "midline" is somewhere around the middle of the rope, that is, not near its ends.  It does NOT mean the middle of a straight, tensioned by both ends line, as you thought when you were young, and you were parroting ABoK#1049 - ABoK#1056...

   And you wrote ( you carved in marble !  :) ) this monumental piece of knotting litterature ( or should I call it "knotting poetry" ? ) :
   
the very fact that the loop is presented as tied-in-the-bight and either-end loadable indicates that there is plenty of rope going in both directions that could therefore easily transmit tension before the loop sees load, even if this tension is unintentional, again causing the loop to assume its Farmer's Loop origin.

   However, you have not presented the knot whose the common bowline is the "origin"(sic) of, by loading it ( the bowline ) from both ends, and forcing it to capsize, while the eye remains unloaded. If you do this, "people may notice to what common knot the common bowline capsizes into" !  :)
   Do it, for the left-handed AND for the right-handed bowline... You may learn something !
Title: Re: Plait loop - a versatile TIB,EEL, PETEE eyeknot
Post by: xarax on May 04, 2015, 09:31:35 AM
   I have presented many "new" knots in the "community"  :) of this Forum - and I believe that some of them are interesting (1). However, in most cases, what I had received, as a feedback, was either SILENCE ( a term describing the results of ignoring, snubbing, etc ), or irrelevant "criticism", like the nonsense I had received in this thread - together with some "polite" words of encouragement, by members of the "new" generation !
   It is amusing what people may invent, to tell their own thing, to themselves and to an absent audience ! The new case is eye-opening, indeed : Follow the "reasoning" of roo, for example : Because a TIB loop can be tied with long ends, it can be loaded by those ends at the same time, by pulling them towards opposite directions, either intentionally or by accident, while the eye is not loaded. If that happens, and this loop capsizes into something else, it is something else s "form" ! Therefore, the Plait loop ( which looks like a plait ), is but "a form" of the Farmer s loop ( which looks like the farmer s, or the farmer cow s,... whatever ). A plait is "a form" of a ...whatever ! !  :) :) By the same token, for example, the slipped overhand knot is but "a form" of the straight line ! I do not know if one can become a real knot tyer by reading those BS, but he can become a real philosopher, that is for sure ! All are One ! Peace on Earth !  :) :) :)
   The interesting thing is that those people who tell those things, pop out in the threads I initiate only when they invent such a BS, by which they believe they will force me to post only in the "Fancy and decorative" knots Forum !  :) :) Because they wish to keep the practical knots Forum as their backyard, or their store, where they can do whatever they like, or whatever makes some pathetic $, by themselves and for themselves... 
   Shifting the goalpost may be a useful manoeuvre for a politician, who wants to mislead his audience. It is NOT for a supposedly knot tyer, who, supposedly, is interested in knots as tools ! To try to convince yourself, and an non-existing audience, that a tool shaped like a plait, and a tool shaped like a ...whatever ( that is, close to "shapeless", or even worse... ), both do the same job, and that the one is "a form" of the other, is funny, but dumb nevertheless - and maliciously wrong, I would say. Who is the "stalker" of whom, I wonder... 
   
   1. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=5084.0
Title: Re: Plait loop - a versatile TIB,EEL, PETEE eyeknot
Post by: Dan_Lehman on May 04, 2015, 07:19:06 PM
Either End Loadable, or EEL ). ...
 as PET from either end, too - PETEE ( Post Eye Tiable, Either End )
I might favor "PET-2", but now see the problematic
case of PET but not-PETEE but PET & EEL.  I wonder :
why would one need PET-2 if not EEL ?  (I.e., although
you can tie it with the tail, you cannot load the tail.)
Still, one might just question "PETEE" : a possibility,
but why have it, why use it --i.e., why not tie it PET-1
and be done, the -2 unneeded.  Is one going to be given
rope coming-from-station-A such that you want -2 loading
for that, and will take finished other-end away for -1 loading
--and so you do need to tie it *backwards*, as it were?
(In contrast to just having the completed knot that
is EEL and not caring which end is which.)

IMAGES : from the side showing better the "plait",
you have done some fine decorative knotting!
(If it is better to have as many characteristics as possible,
take the eye-appeal, too, then!)
I've seen plenty of "art" of late, and can see this particular
OP triplet of images --orange on black, pale yellow on maroon,
and grey-white on charcoal-- as much more satisfying and
pleasing than a great deal of what passes as "art" (anyone
for one of Koons's Balloon Dogs, or a Hirst shark tank?
--or, just the X. backgrounds ALONE!!)  !?

Maybe where this put as a triptych with graduated tightening,
closing of an exploded image, it would enhance the repetition?!

It could hang as seen here, vertically, or horizontally.
(Separately framed, the buyer can orient as she pleases.)


 ;)
Title: Re: Plait loop - a versatile TIB,EEL, PETEE eyeknot
Post by: xarax on May 04, 2015, 07:30:47 PM
  I wonder : why would one need PET-2 if not EEL ?

  Right ! So what do we do ? Should we use only PET-2, and suppose that, most of the times, it will be EEL, too ? ( Notice that it can be PET-2, but, when loaded by the "other" end, it may well become unstable, it may deform, and even slip. The most symmetric, and so EEL loop that I know, is the Tweedledee bowline, shown in the attached pictures (1) - but agent smith believes it is too complex for climbers... Also, although its nub is made from two interwoven links topologically equivalent to the unknot, their 8-shaped form bothers me a little bit - their geometry is very close to the geometry of a fig.8 knot, and so I suspect that, under heavy loading, they may clinch around each other more tightly than we would had wished.)

1. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3989.0
Title: Re: Plait loop - a versatile TIB,EEL, PETEE eyeknot
Post by: xarax on May 04, 2015, 10:45:20 PM
...one might just question "PETEE" : a possibility, but why have it, why use it --i.e., why not tie it PET-1 and be done, the -2 unneeded.

  Imagine the eyeknot as a "relic" knot  :), tied in the middle of a loose / unloaded line at a certain time, and waiting / wanting to be loaded, by the either end, only later - in other words, the knot may be tied before it is decided how ( i.e., by which end ) it will be loaded. If we do not know in advance, for whatever reason, which end will be loaded, we can not decide relating-to-which-end it should better be tied as PET- so it would be great if it is PET regarding both ends.
  However, as I had explained in previous posts, there is yet another reason for a PETEE / PET-2 : I have seen that the knots which are not equivalent to the unknot, as the overhand knot and the fig.8 knot, under heavy loading, tend to clinch around themselves too tightly, and become difficult to untie, even of it is tied on the continuation of the returning eye leg ( as a 'collar structure" ). Therefore, to-be-sure that an eyeknot is easily untiable, it is a wise choice to avoid attaching the continuation of the returning eyeleg to the Standing par ( after / post the eye ) by an overhand knot or a fig.8 knot, or any other knot which is not topologically equivalent to the unknot, and prefer an "open" knot, which is topologically equivalent to the unknot - just as we did for the knot tied on the continuation of the Standing End ( before the eye ). If we do this, we have an eyeknot nub made from two knots interlinked to each other, which both are topologically equivalent to the unknot - that is, we have an eyeknot which is PET regarding either end. 
Title: Re: Plait loop - a versatile TIB,EEL, PETEE eyeknot
Post by: Mobius on May 04, 2015, 11:18:28 PM
Either End Loadable, or EEL ). ...
 as PET from either end, too - PETEE ( Post Eye Tiable, Either End )
I might favor "PET-2", but now see the problematic
case of PET but not-PETEE but PET & EEL.  I wonder :
why would one need PET-2 if not EEL ?  (I.e., although
you can tie it with the tail, you cannot load the tail.)
Still, one might just question "PETEE" : a possibility,
but why have it, why use it --i.e., why not tie it PET-1
and be done, the -2 unneeded. 

Right, despite my involvement in developing the PETEE acronym I am not really sure the idea needs to have a shortened form.

Using my TIB bowline as an example (that no-one has seen here yet) I could image a scenario where instead of having the tail close to my right hand and tying the knot TIB I have the tail close to my left hand. I have effectively created another knot, since I have inadvertently swapped the Spart and Tail and the loading on the knot will be completely different subsequently. Presumably I might then hook my just tied knot to a biner and be tired enough not to notice what I had done. Fortunately, my knot is EEL (Either End Loading) and the concept shows as a potential security issue. EEL might be a useful shortened form judging by discussions here and elsewhere.

Now why might PETEE (Post Eye Tiable, Either End or PET-2 (less of a mouthful) ) be relevant here? Only if the biner jammed (I suppose that happens sometimes?) and then you went to untie your knot. In that, perhaps far-fetched, scenario it would be nice if the knot was PETEE for the same reasons we like PET in the first place.

As Dan points out, when do we actually need PETEE as a shortened form apart from this or another similarly convoluted case? For example, my bowline is PETEE, however I do not even know how to tie it as an end through a harness the 'wrong way'. Why would I need to know that?

Cheers,

mobius
Title: Re: Plait loop - a versatile TIB,EEL, PETEE eyeknot
Post by: Mobius on May 05, 2015, 02:09:14 PM
...one might just question "PETEE" : a possibility, but why have it, why use it --i.e., why not tie it PET-1 and be done, the -2 unneeded.

  Imagine the eyeknot as a "relic" knot  :), tied in the middle of a loose / unloaded line at a certain time, and waiting / wanting to be loaded, by the either end, only later - in other words, the knot may be tied before it is decided how ( i.e., by which end ) it will be loaded. If we do not know in advance, for whatever reason, which end will be loaded, we can not decide relating-to-which-end it should better be tied as PET- so it would be great if it is PET regarding both ends.

If you using a mid-line TIB eye knot when would you ever envisage needing to untie it by removing a 'tail'? EEL is a good thing to have (as discussed), however would PETEE/PET-2 (or even just PET2 perhaps, if we are going to use this short form idea) be that important in this case? I'm not so sure, though I could probably dream up some scenario it might be, even if is fairly unlikely to happen ;)

Cheers,

mobius
Title: Re: Plait loop - a versatile TIB,EEL, PETEE eyeknot
Post by: roo on May 05, 2015, 07:40:06 PM
If you using a mid-line TIB eye knot when would you ever envisage needing to untie it by removing a 'tail'? EEL is a good thing to have (as discussed), however would PETEE/PET-2 (or even just PET2 perhaps, if we are going to use this short form idea) be that important in this case? I'm not so sure, though I could probably dream up some scenario it might be, even if is fairly unlikely to happen ;)

Cheers,

mobius
I think it's good to talk about specific, real-world applications when discussing knot needs.  That way, it prevents others from going off on tangents the original asker (you) did not intend.
Title: Re: Plait loop - a versatile TIB,EEL, PETEE eyeknot
Post by: Mobius on May 05, 2015, 10:50:17 PM
If you using a mid-line TIB eye knot when would you ever envisage needing to untie it by removing a 'tail'? EEL is a good thing to have (as discussed), however would PETEE/PET-2 (or even just PET2 perhaps, if we are going to use this short form idea) be that important in this case? I'm not so sure, though I could probably dream up some scenario it might be, even if is fairly unlikely to happen ;)

Cheers,

mobius
I think it's good to talk about specific, real-world applications when discussing knot needs.  That way, it prevents others from going off on tangents the original asker (you) did not intend.

Ok, what about this: The middle climber of 3 is tied-in clipped into a Butterfly Loop. A Butterfly Loop is not PET, you always end up with a simple overhand knot in your hand if you do untie it by an end. However, you are unlikely to ever want to untie it this way, in this application, so why would PET matter? If PET doesn't matter, then PET2 certainly won't.

Cheers,

mobius

[Edit: tied-in was the wrong term for attachment using a biner]
Title: Re: Plait loop - a versatile TIB,EEL, PETEE eyeknot
Post by: roo on May 05, 2015, 11:13:18 PM
Ok, what about this: The middle climber of 3 is tied-in with a Butterfly Loop. A Butterfly loop is not PET, you always end up with a simple overhand knot in your hand if you do untie it by an end. However, you are unlikely to ever want to untie it this way, in this application, so why would PET matter? If PET doesn't matter, then PET2 certainly won't.

Cheers,

mobius
Correct.  A Butterfly Loop will work, is fast to tie, is easy to check, and tolerates the various loading permutations in the scenario well.
Title: Re: Plait loop - a versatile TIB,EEL, PETEE eyeknot
Post by: xarax on May 06, 2015, 12:05:11 AM
 In a sense, nothing matters in a practical knot - any "job" which a practical knot can do, can be done by a series of three-four half hitches or overhand knots in a row... The knot tyers should only spend a few more seconds, to tie the universal all-purpose tangle, and that will be all. Ropes are the cheaper things of all the costs required in any outdoors activity they are used : So, just cut off some portion of the end of the line which has a jammed or difficult to untie knot, and when the rope will become too short, buy a new one ! You want to release or retrieve a loop, and you worry about the" relic" knot ? Do not ! Just cut the segment of the rope where the loop is tied, and in the blink of an eye you get a nice, sleek unknotted line !  :)
   The additional versatility, structural coherence and functional simplicity of a loop, which is already TIB, PET-1 and EEL, offered by being also PET -2, to my eyes at least, is self-evident. However, many things I happen to consider self-evident ( that the Plait loop and the Farmer s loop are two veeery different knots, for example, and that it is the geometry which determines the structural properties of a knot, the way it "works", and not the topology ), are not self-evident to other knot tyers - because practical knotting is not a science, and, as in art, it is very easy to somebody ( and anybody ) to say his own thing - most of the times for his own obscure reasons, which have nothing to do with the knots themselves. ( Many posts in this thread are telling, regarding that...)
    ( If the Butterfly loop was THE perfect loop, the Holy Grail of TIB loops, we would nt lose our time tying other lops, and discussing about them ( hopefully - because I have not read many things about the Plait loop itself, as a knot, in this thread... but I can not say that I was surprized ! Years of experience !  :) ). Fortunately or unfortunately, it is not. It is much less perfect, in its role, than the Zeppelin bend, for example - and we have to keep that the existence of the Zeppelin bend has not deterred knot tyers of tying dozens of dozens other bends. )
Title: Re: Plait loop - a versatile TIB,EEL, PETEE eyeknot
Post by: agent_smith on May 06, 2015, 12:15:03 AM
Quote
Ok, what about this: The middle climber of 3 is tied-in with a Butterfly Loop.

Technically, a climber would not be 'tied-in'... a climber would need to 'clip-in'. That is, the connective eye of the Butterfly knot is attached via 2 locking carabiners to the harness (second carabiner adds redundancy/insurance).

A challenge I will throw to this forum is to devise a tying method of attaching the Butterfly knot connective eye directly to the harness without need for carabiners.

Now I have indeed devised a method - but it involves making the eye of the Butterfly elongated (sort of into a long bight segment) and then 'retracing' that bight back through the central nub and then terminating it with a figure 8 eye knot and clipping that eye to the harness. It works well and isn't all that complicated. It retains the bi-axial loading capability of the knot.

However, I'd like to discover a method that does not require carabiners and retains the simplicity of the original Butterfly connective eye knot.
Title: Re: Plait loop - a versatile TIB,EEL, PETEE eyeknot
Post by: SS369 on May 06, 2015, 12:23:56 AM
I personally am interested in exploring new knots, even if they don't become part of my tool box of knots. I use so few, but those are used often because they work for me. But, I'll not limit myself, my curiosity, just because it may not be practical (right now). Sometimes the voyage is worth the time and what one can learn during it is immeasurable.

A knot being TIB, PET, EEL, PETEE, (I totally dislike acronyms!) all or not matters little in life's general scheme. But for pure knot tying aficionados, this is an interesting concept.
There may come a instance where a new knot may be desirable or lead to another. That sort of what the IGKT is about.
And I hope we don't soon find the Holy Grail of knots.
Knot life will become truly dull.

SS
Title: Re: Plait loop - a versatile TIB,EEL, PETEE eyeknot
Post by: SS369 on May 06, 2015, 12:41:01 AM
Quote
Ok, what about this: The middle climber of 3 is tied-in with a Butterfly Loop.

Technically, a climber would not be 'tied-in'... a climber would need to 'clip-in'. That is, the connective eye of the Butterfly knot is attached via 2 locking carabiners to the harness (second carabiner adds redundancy/insurance).

A challenge I will throw to this forum is to devise a tying method of attaching the Butterfly knot connective eye directly to the harness without need for carabiners.

Now I have indeed devised a method - but it involves making the eye of the Butterfly elongated (sort of into a long bight segment) and then 'retracing' that bight back through the central nub and then terminating it with a figure 8 eye knot and clipping that eye to the harness. It works well and isn't all that complicated. It retains the bi-axial loading capability of the knot.

However, I'd like to discover a method that does not require carabiners and retains the simplicity of the original Butterfly connective eye knot.


Good day agent_smith.
For a climbing scenario I would probably tie an unimaginative knot. Probably some loop using a bight. I can think of a few that will untie easy enough after a severe load.
Even as the attached photo.

SS
Title: Re: Plait loop - a versatile TIB,EEL, PETEE eyeknot
Post by: xarax on May 06, 2015, 01:36:59 AM
   And I hope we don't soon find the Holy Grail of knots.
   Knot life will become truly dull.

  I agree, 100% !  :)  :)
  And along with knot life, life itself will become less colourful... ( = more B&W...). 
Title: Re: Plait loop - a versatile TIB,EEL, PETEE eyeknot
Post by: xarax on May 06, 2015, 01:41:13 AM
an unimaginative knot.

  This carabineer there will make the fig.8 loop always easy to untie... Perhaps you should pass it through the upper part of the "8" as well.
Title: Re: Plait loop - a versatile TIB,EEL, PETEE eyeknot
Post by: roo on May 06, 2015, 01:43:55 AM
Quote
Ok, what about this: The middle climber of 3 is tied-in with a Butterfly Loop.

Technically, a climber would not be 'tied-in'... a climber would need to 'clip-in'. That is, the connective eye of the Butterfly knot is attached via 2 locking carabiners to the harness (second carabiner adds redundancy/insurance).

A challenge I will throw to this forum is to devise a tying method of attaching the Butterfly knot connective eye directly to the harness without need for carabiners.

Now I have indeed devised a method - but it involves making the eye of the Butterfly elongated (sort of into a long bight segment) and then 'retracing' that bight back through the central nub and then terminating it with a figure 8 eye knot and clipping that eye to the harness. It works well and isn't all that complicated. It retains the bi-axial loading capability of the knot.

However, I'd like to discover a method that does not require carabiners and retains the simplicity of the original Butterfly connective eye knot.

Diverting to a new topic:
http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=5304.msg35013#msg35013
Title: Re: Plait loop - a versatile TIB,EEL, PETEE eyeknot
Post by: Mobius on May 06, 2015, 04:05:33 AM
   If PET doesn't matter, then PET2 certainly won't.

   So, after much thinking, you felt/concluded that the only way to deny the usefulness of the PET-2, is to deny the usefulness of the PET -1 itself ?  :)

LOL  ;D If by 'much thinking' you mean the 5 mins I spent reading the forum and replying before work this morning then you are right. And, you missed the point about PET2: I could have used your 'Plait Loop' as the middle climber 'clip-in' (sorry, tie-in was the wrong word in my other post).

Tell me why the PET2 property of the Plait Loop has any relevance in this case!? You are going to have to convince me that the middle climber is going to want to untie himself from his biner by using an end and not just un-clip himself and untie the loop in the normal reversal of the TIB method.

Cheers,

Mobius

(spending another 'much thinking' 5 mins to write this from work)
Title: Re: Plait loop - a versatile TIB,EEL, PETEE eyeknot
Post by: xarax on May 06, 2015, 05:59:44 AM
   If one wants something that "has relevance" in each and every case, in all cases, the real and the imaginary ones, I believe I know something that may satisfy this need... It is called "KnotGod" !  :)  :) :)
   On each special case one will present, where the PET-2 is not required, I will present another one, where it will ! This way we are all going to go mad very soon...  :)
   The beauty of knots, is that they are tools with a very wide spectrum of applications - moreover, those applications change in time, and who knows what will happen in the future... Let us imagine the poor fellow who discovered the wheel, to have to answer to all those who were telling him that this "thing" is not going far - and what would had happened, if he was trying to find counter-examples in each and every example of a case where the wheel would just be stuck in the mud, the sand, etc... :)
   We have to think in general terms - the most general knots are the more versatile, and so the most useful.
   Ceteris paribus, TIB knots can do all that non-TIB can, and then some, and if we find something that a TIB, EEL, and PET-2 knot CAN NOT DO ( other than coffee...), then we will see...
   It is a great thing to tie a knot without paying any attention to which end goes where, by which end it is going to be loaded now or at any time in the future, and by which end you should untie it then, in the future, in order to be able to do this in one stage, and do not leave any "relic" knot. If we want to narrow our view, it is very easy - but we will be left with tens of  thousands of knots, each one of which will perfectly address the requirements of a particular application only, and of no other !
   As I said many times, we see, in practice, that the PET -1 loops which are loaded by the "other" end, if the knot which is tied on the continuation of this "other" end is not topologically equivalent to the unknot ( i.e., if they are not PET -2 ) will, most probably, be difficult to untie ( because "closed" knots, as the overhand knot and the fig.8 knot clinch to themselves easily, especially when they are loaded by the 100% of the load ).
Title: Re: Plait loop - a versatile TIB,EEL, PETEE eyeknot
Post by: Mobius on May 06, 2015, 11:39:33 AM
has any relevance in this case!?

   So you want something that "has relevance" in each and every case, in all cases, the real and the imaginary ones ? I believe I know something that may satisfy this need... It is called "KnotGod" !  :)  :) :)
   On each special case you will present, where the PET-2 is not required, I will present another one, where it will ! This way we are going to go mad very soon, believe me !  :)

At the risk of belabouring the issue, I think you have missed the point first raised by Dan and picked up by me. I don't think anyone is arguing against the 'Post Eye Tiable, Either End' concept, what Dan first said (I believe) was pretty much along the lines of 'why do we need an acronym (PETEE, PET-2... whatever) for a concept that has no seemingly important practical applications'? Some people state openly they don't like acronyms, and fair enough. I have said I'm ambivalent about them and can see the benefit of them in some discussions where terms like PET, TIB and (dare I say) EEL have important, relevant, everyday, applications. On the other hand, they can be painful for someone new (like me) to negotiate properly.

So since I gave you a practical case where PETEE was irrelevant, you (xarax) might be able to give us one practical application where it is. I made up one rather implausible one myself in an earlier post, it should be better than that please ;)

Quote
   The beauty of knots, is that they are tools with a very wide spectrum of applications - moreover, those applications change in time, and who knows what will happen in the future... Imagine the poor fellow who discovered the wheel, to have to answer to all those who were telling him that this "thing" is not going far - and what would had happened, if he was trying to find counter-examples in each and every example of a case where the wheel would just be stuck in the mud, the sand, etc... :)

Sorry, I think we don't just start using acronyms willy-nilly. PET, TIB, SPart... EEL (probably) will stay I'm guessing since those concepts are not only useful, they have practical day-to-day applications that come up in discussions regularly. Does PETEE, or will PETEE do the same? Maybe when 'applications change in time, and who knows what will happen in the future' those who don't like acronyms might have to suffer it, however not now is my thinking.

Quote
   Think in general terms - the most general knots are the more versatile, and so the most useful.

Sure, however that does not mean we have to invent an acronym for every concept that 'might' be useful  :P

Cheers,

mobius
Title: Re: Plait loop - a versatile TIB,EEL, PETEE eyeknot
Post by: xarax on May 06, 2015, 02:01:08 PM
  As I have said a thousand ( at least... :) ) times, personally, I do nt give a s... about "seemingly important practical applications" - because I do nt give a s... about what "seems" like being something, but in fact it is not, I do nt give a s... about the supposed "importance" of something, like practical knots, for example  :), when millions of children die out of thirst (and hunger, of course ), I do nt give a s... about "practical" things when they do not do not save or really improve lives, and I do not give a s... about "applications", without some of which nothing would had been really worse - and many things would be much better !  :)  Imagine that we had not invented explosives, and fire arms, and nuclear bombs... Chemistry and nuclear physics are always great things, while their "applications" are sometimes, well, just massively lethal.
   On a more balanced tone, the number and of the practical applications is not carved in any plates given to us by God, it is not frozen in time. "The future is not ours to see" (*). Moreover, a knot which offers something more, can wake up evolution, and make a new practical application "emerge" out of nothing - just as new practical applications may make us tie "new" knots. Also, the simple knots should always be examined simply as simple knots, without worrying about any relation they might or they might not have, about any application at all. Just this day, after three and a half YEARS,  I have seen in a class of knot I have been tying all this time, something so f... obvious, which I should had seen in three and a half SECONDS !  :) So, yes, I understand what to examine a knot per se means, and how stupid you can be, and remain so, if you do not...

  I had been in situations where I was not sure about which end goes where, which end should better remain attached somewhere and which end could be used to untie in-the-end a secure bowline... The moment you get the EEL idea, as you did, you should also get the PET-2 idea... If you don't, well, then you are in the same situation as I were, when I had not realize the importance of a TIB knot being EEL as well - and the pity, the versatility / opportunity lost, of a TIB knot that is not EEL, although it could well have been tied just a little bit differently, and become EEL. 
   I know the game which some people want to play in this Forum, for reasons which have nothing to do with knots ! When they meet something they had never thought of ( because their mind is built for parroting, not learning ) they draw out one of their concealed weapons, the "practicality", they start mumbling about specific materials, specific loadings, specific knotting environments and "problems", references they do not cite, things they have seen "in the Wild", and so on. In other words, they try to "kill" in its infancy the very idea, the concept itself, by questioning the "importance" of all the "practical applications", in this and in any other possible past or future Universe !
   I happen to "see" the importance of a already PET-1 loop, which is EEL, to be PET-2 as well - but I do not expect that everybody else will ! I have seen the importance of the fact that the Zeppelin bend is a rope-made hinge, and of the fact that the opposing bights locking mechanism does not depend on the number of times the locked tail passes in between them, and the fact that most PET-1 loops can be untied easily because they are PET -1 ( that is, because the knot tied on the Standing Part before the eye is topologically equivalent to the unknot, so it is not an overhand or a fig.8 knot ), and most non-PET -1 loops can not be untied easily because they are not PET-1 ( as the fake, so-called "Zeppelin loop" ). However, I do not expect the knot tyers of this generation, grown up in an environment full of knotting myths, "magic" tying tricks, silly names, and dumb tying recipes, would ever become able to abandon their hobbits and their beliefs, and question the fact that they were so blind so long... 
   When I do discover how stupid I have been, as I did today  :), I do not attempt to hide this fact under the rug ! On the contrary, I try to utilize it, and examine what was the cause of this stupidity, and what is the cause of the stupidity of people, in general, regarding some things, while they are so clever regarding some other things... I was stupid I had not realized the importance of a loop or a hitch being EEL, and I was stupid when I had not seen in 3 1/2 seconds that the Helical loops can be tied easily with zero helical turns first, and then be enhanced with any number of such turns we wish or we want/need, in-the-bight, at an instance !  Well, better later than never !
Title: Re: Plait loop - a versatile TIB,EEL, PETEE eyeknot
Post by: SS369 on May 07, 2015, 01:28:55 AM
The prior comments concerning correct name spelling are off topic and should be conducted via PM or email.
Please do so.
They have been removed.

SS
Title: Let's forget about tomorrow, for tomorrow never comes.
Post by: xarax on May 16, 2015, 03:30:19 PM
   May I have your attention, please.
   Farmers in this Forum are kindly requested to milk their cows first, then drink some milk, and only afterwards take a look at the loops shown at the attached picture. If, after that, they still "see" in those loops their beloved ugly-tangly Farmers a loop ( ABoK#1054)(1), they better go to sleep, and wake up again tomorrow.
    Usually, tomorrow does come (2)(3).


   P.S. The MOST funny thing about this poor ugly-tangly Farmer s loop, is the way people who had parroted Ashley since time immemorial are tying it ! I believe it can make even parrots laugh ! Enjoy :

1.start with the rope 3 times around the palm of one hand, let the ends hang down,
2.then pull the initial middle turn up from the top edge and place it over to the right
3.then pull the now new middle turn up from the top edge and place it over to the left
4.then pull the now new middle turn up from the top edge and place it over to the right
5.then pull the now new middle turn up to form the loop, dress and tighten before use

1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farmer's_loop
2. http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/franksinatra/forgetdomani.html
3. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sPkL7cw7J7Q
Title: Re: Plait loop - a versatile TIB,EEL, PETEE eyeknot
Post by: Tex on May 16, 2015, 04:08:18 PM
Nice steps.  You just inspired me to tie one with the end of the rope again, just for fun.  ;) It looks pretty too.
Title: Re: Plait loop - a versatile TIB,EEL, PETEE eyeknot
Post by: alpineer on May 16, 2015, 06:48:09 PM
I discovered long ago how to tie the Farmers Loop using the Fig.8 method, and the Bowline-like (aka Circus Bowline) method for an end-of-line loop. The Farmers Loop reminds me of an octopus...http://www.sciencenutshell.com/how-does-an-octopus-control-all-eight-arms-at-once/. They may be considered ugly, but they are amazing creatures.
Your knotted specimens have a ShakeHandsEsque appearance. Do you starch them, or pin them, to maintain their shape before photographing?
What I get is a knot which is not as neat, compact, nor as pretty as your images suggest.   

You're right, the P.Loop is definitely not the F.Loop. Can you tell me why I should choose your Plait Loop over the Farmers Loop for any task.
What advantage does P have over F?
Title: Re: Plait loop - a versatile TIB,EEL, PETEE eyeknot
Post by: xarax on May 16, 2015, 07:39:04 PM
   Your knotted specimens have a ShakeHandsEsque appearance. Do you starch them, or pin them, to maintain their shape before photographing?
   What I get is a knot which is not as neat, compact, nor as pretty as your images suggest.

   Perhaps because you tie it in-the-end, and you have not tied it so many times to feel how much you should pull each string ?
   Tie it in-the-bight, following the simple, straightforward method I had shown, and you will see that it takes the correct form much more easily.
   No, I do not do any such magic trick !  :) :) I just DRESS it correctly. Knots, among other things, should be dressed ( or not ?  :) :) :) )     

Can you tell me why I should choose your Plait Loop over the Farmers Loop for any task.
What advantage does P have over F?

   Starting from a secondary, but still important feature, which is obvious to me, but I understand that it may be not so obvious to others :
   The P has a pattern - the only F s pattern is the shape of a farmer s , or a farmer cow s, you know what !  :) :)
   Knots that have a pattern, can me memorised and remembered more easily ( because the human mind works that way...), and, more importantly, can be inspected more easily ! Any mistake would be like a fly in the ointment, because it will destroy the pattern of the plait, and will generate the pattern of the s... instead...
   Now, the two loops are NOT meant to be loaded in the same way ! The P is an end-of-line loop, which is EEL : it can be loaded by the one, the other, or by both ends simultaneously. Those ends are parallel to the eyelegs ( almost - we are talking about the general case, where the loop is very elongated, i.e., not ring loaded ). The F is an in-line loop, which is meant to be tied in the middle of a more or less tensioned and straight main line, and support something hung within its loop.
   See poor old Ashley : the man has put the in-line loops the one after the other in his chapter, although his general taxonomy throughout the book is, well, Farmers s loop-like !  :) See how F s depicted, in all its drawings and its pictures : It is either loaded by one, only end ( and, in particular, the end which makes this odd fellow look as much less rickety as possible...), or by both ends, which, because of that, point to almost opposite directions.
   You have to examine the F a little more carefully, and see that it is not symmetric regarding its two ends : it behaves differently, and it takes a different shape and orientation, if it is hung by the one or by the other end. ( the same happens with many of Ashley s in-line loops ). The continuations of the two Standing Ends inside the nub follow entirely different paths, they distribute the tensile forces entirely differently. On the contrary, the P is just two interlinked crossing knots, the one above the other ! It is, and it "works" so, as a crossing knot-based end-of-line knot, independently of the Standing End from which it would be hung. It ia also not-symmetric, of course, but if you examine it a little you will see that the continuations of both Standing Ends follow almost identical, geometrically, paths, and, when they will be loaded, they will be loaded in almost the same way. The fact that the one crossing knot is "above" the other, or more near to the corresponding Standing End, and the other "below", more far from it, does not mean that they will behave differently.
   With P, you have an easily inspected loop, which "works" in the same way when it is loaded by any of its two ends, and which way is transparent, easily understood and well known : all crossing-knot-based bowlines ( the "Eskimo" bowlines included ) work in this way. I tried to figure out a loop that is truly EEL, works (almost) in the same way when it is loaded by the one or the other end, and it is PET-2 - and P was the result. I had NOT tried to tie an in-line loop - because, to my view, we already have the great Butterfly loop - and I had already tied such loops, as the Sheepshank loop, for example (1). Please, notice that I call the Sheepshank loop, as loop, meaning an in-line loop, and not as a "bowline", because the Sheepshank bowline, presented in the same thread, is clearly a different knot !
   You may have been misled in this matter, because the Butterfly loop is so stable, that retains its shape, more or less, when it is loaded / used as an in-line loop, and as an end-of-line loop. As you can see now, this is not the case with the P and the F, and the Sheepshank loop and bowline. The knots are very different geometrically, they "work" differently, I am SURE they will have different properties regarding slippage, strength and jamming - in short, they are different structures, and, to me, knots are structures, not shapes ! 
   Also, as you may had noticed, the Plait loop was meant to replace the Pet loop, which is also a crossing knot-based TIB loop ( better, to my view, than the Span loop ), but it is not very satisfactory as EEL, and it is not PET-2. One may see the Plait loop as a "double" / "two-ends"  Pet loop (3).
   Last, but not least : Do you ask ME about "applications" ?  :) :) :)
   As I have said time and again, I do not give a Farmer s s... for applications ! To me, the "purpose" of a knot is to remain "knotted" under load. Then, IFF and WHEN this is achieved, somebody, at some point of space and time, in this planet or elsewhere, may "use" this knot - but, most probably, I will not be around to see what will happen !  :) :)
   Enjoy an easily tied in-the-bight TIB loop ( we have many good TIB loops, which, unfortunately, can NOT be tied in-the bight easily - or we do not know how to tie them as such yet...), easily inspected, good looking from its "front" view (2), and almost symmetrically "working" if/when it is loaded by either end.

1. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4680
2. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=5084.msg34751#msg34751
Title: Re: Plait loop - a versatile TIB,EEL, PETEE eyeknot
Post by: xarax on May 16, 2015, 08:03:01 PM
   I discovered long ago how to tie the Farmers Loop using the Fig.8 method, and the Bowline-like (aka Circus Bowline) method for an end-of-line loop.

   I do not know any of those methods... I know only the "magic" million-times-parroted Riley s method, shown by Ashley, which is so ugly, conceptually, as the Farmer s loop is ugly, visually... Post them in a thread, so we can see if they are as simple as the method I suggest for the Plait loop ( which does NOT generate the Farmer s loop, even if we try to distort it towards this way...)
   Perhaps you can figure out another, better TIB method for the Plait loop, too ?
Title: Re: Plait loop - a versatile TIB,EEL, PETEE eyeknot
Post by: alpineer on May 17, 2015, 02:58:23 AM
Have a look at ABoK #1056. Ashley says it's similar to the Farmer's Loop. It's similar alright. In fact it's identical.
Title: Re: Plait loop - a versatile TIB,EEL, PETEE eyeknot
Post by: xarax on May 17, 2015, 07:35:20 AM
Have a look at ABoK #1056. Ashley says it's similar to the Farmer's Loop. It's similar alright. In fact it's identical.

   I see many of those loops as Samisen bends turned into loops :
   http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4890

   Also, I said that the Plait loop may be seen as a variation of the ABoK#1055 loop, but you are right in this - it may also be seen as a variation of the ABoK#1056 loop, simply because ABoK#1055 and ABoJ#1056 can be considered as variations of each other... :)
...one can reach it from many different starting posts : it is a modified Englishman s knot, a re-tucked TIB Samisen bowline, a "Span bend" turned into an eyeknot, a variation of the ABoK#1055, etc.

   However, I can not see how one can tie the Plait loop in-the-bight in a way similar to the way Ashley ties the ABoK#1055 - ABoK#1056 - although I suspect there should / might be a similar way...
   Perhaps Luca will save me here, again...
Title: Re: Plait loop - a versatile TIB,EEL, PETEE eyeknot
Post by: xarax on May 17, 2015, 07:48:15 AM
I can not see how one can tie the Plait loop in-the-bight in a way similar to the way Ashley ties the ABoK#1055 - ABoK#1056 - although I suspect there should / might be a similar way...

Now I Do !  :) :) :) :) :)

   Alpineer, you should be as blind as I am !  :) :) Just "halter" the "lower" collar of the ABoK#1056 all the way to the top, so it becomes the 'higher/upper" collar - and the ABoK#1056 becomes the Plait loop instantly !
   I knew that the one could be a variation of the other, I suspected that there should be a tying method in-the bight to tie the Plait loop in a way similar to the way Ashley tied the ABoK#1056, but it never crossed my mind to "push" the "lower" collar of the ABok#1056 as far as it can go upwards !  :) :) I will edit my previous posts to tell this simple thing ( which perhaps Luca would had told me the very first minute... )
   
Title: Re: Plait loop - a versatile TIB,EEL, PETEE eyeknot
Post by: alpineer on May 17, 2015, 09:18:56 AM
Alpineer, you should be as blind as I am !  :) :) 
??? ??? I'm sorry, what do you mean by saying this?

Just "halter" the "lower" collar of the ABoK#1056 all the way to the top, so it becomes the 'higher/upper" collar - and the ABoK#1056 becomes the Plait loop instantly !
Been There, Done That a while back.
Title: Re: Plait loop - a versatile TIB,EEL, PETEE eyeknot
Post by: xarax on May 17, 2015, 09:37:27 AM
Been There, Done That a while back.

  I am NOT interested in archaeology !  :) If you do, consult Dan Lehman, who had tied every knot that exists in the Univers ( and then some ) - during the 19th century !  :) :)
  When I am talking about a "new" knot, I mean only a knot which has not been published before - and I have said it about 12 x 12 times by now in this Forum ! ( If you love to talk about who did what first, and his was better, bigger, etc..., talk to the younger members of the Forum, who imagine some female audience, I guess  :) :), or the not-so-young members who wish to complete their Nobel prizes collection !  :) )
   I mean, you should had told me right from the very first post : Tie this loop as Ashley ties the ABoK#1056, just "push" the "lower" collar to the top of the nub, to become its "higher" collar !
   Now, can you see and tell me if the Plait loop can capsize to the ABoK#1056, or vice versa ? Because if any of the two can, they should be considered as a variation of the other (  and be named by the same name ? ). If they can not, they are two "bistable knots".
   Do you prefer ABoK s TIB method for tying this loop ( the Plait loop ) from the method I show at Reply#19 :
   http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=5288.msg34783#msg34783
 
Title: Re: Plait loop - a versatile TIB,EEL, PETEE eyeknot
Post by: alpineer on May 17, 2015, 10:18:15 AM
You haven't answered the question in my previous post yet. I'm asking for understanding.
Title: Re: Plait loop - a versatile TIB,EEL, PETEE eyeknot
Post by: xarax on May 17, 2015, 10:33:04 AM
   I do not understand which was the question !  :)
   Take a look at the Plait loop - in the Wild... No strings attached !  :) ( I took the pictures a few minutes ago ).
   ( I have tied it on slippery ropes, as this caving one, I had tied it on marine ropes, it always pops out the same. I do not know what you do, and you can not tie it like this...)
Title: Re: Plait loop - a versatile TIB,EEL, PETEE eyeknot
Post by: xarax on May 17, 2015, 11:11:58 AM
   The Plait loop, tied on paracord ( which has not a very round inner core / cross section, and can not follow very smooth curves when it makes sharp turns ). I believe that the general plait pattern is as instantly visible and as easily inspected here, as in any other material .
Title: Re: Plait loop - a versatile TIB,EEL, PETEE eyeknot
Post by: xarax on May 20, 2015, 11:41:51 PM
   As Alpineer indicated, the Plait loop can also be tied with the TIB method shown by Ashley for the ABoK#1056, and by re-dressing the outcome further. One may argue that following this method is a faster and easier way to tie it, than the way shown at Reply#19 (1) - which, although less "instantaneous", is nevertheless more clear and straightforward  conceptually : no "magic" tricks involved !
    However, if we try to tie the corresponding end-of-line loop of the in-line ABoK#1056, we end with the loop(s) shown in :
   http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=5347.0
   If this loop ( or loops, because this ugly tangly is not even stable when loaded by either end...) shown there, has/have ANY relation whatsoever to the Plait loop, I leave it to the judgment of the reader.

1. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=5288.msg34783#msg34783