International Guild of Knot Tyers Forum

General => New Knot Investigations => Topic started by: oneloneknot on March 27, 2015, 01:48:59 PM

Title: True Adjustable Loop Knot or TALK for short
Post by: oneloneknot on March 27, 2015, 01:48:59 PM
Hello, my name is John Hartzog, I am 61 and live in Florida, USA.  My story begins in the late 90's.  At the time I was working the midnight shift at a new roadway toll plaza that wasn't very busy so I had plenty of time on my hands.  A few years prior I had taken up dual line sport kiting as a hobby (never did get good at it).  I had bought a pair of small stunt kites that were trained together with 5 train lines that were supposed to be of equal length.  They were tied in hollow core Dacron kite line and they were anything but of equal length.  The need for train lines to be exactly equal is important because unequal lines means an unstable train.  This is a problem with 2 trained kites, a disaster with more.  I suck at tying lines of equal length using the traditional Double Overhand Loop Knot, at least at both ends of the line. 

I knew that there had to be an adjustable loop knot available and wondered why no one was using it.  So I borrowed every book the library system had on knot and set out at night at work to find it ( I bought a copy of The Ashley Book of Knots).  But search as I did, I was so disappointed that there just was not such a not in existence.  Now I knew why no one used one.  Then late one night as I sat in my booth practicing a few knots from a book I tied a loose Figure of Eight Knot.  Playing around I passed the free end (working end) through the loops of the Figure of Eight Knot and pulled it tight  with a snap by putting my finger into the loop made by the free end and pulling on the standing part.  Lo and behold I sat in amazement as studied the loop knot in my hands.  It was exactly what I was looking for!  I could not believe that I had discovered, or invented a new knot so for years I kept looking and asking others as I showed them my knot.  But to this day I have never found the knot in any publication that I have looked in.

To this very day I have a hard time believing that I have actually come up with a new knot.  I have been so afraid that I have not that I have only sent it to one person in the kiting world, Rod Beamgard, in order for them to see if they knew of the knots existence. He was unable to find anyone who had seen the knot before.  I still have reservations about sharing this because I am so afraid that either I have not discovered a new knot, or I have waited nearly 20 year and some one else had discovered it and has submitted it.  But here goes.

I have used the TALK to successfully tie kite train lines in hollow core 150 lb.test Dacron.  The knot has not ever slipped in this line.  I have successfully made 100 foot and 150 foot long dual line kite flying lines, of exact equal length, made of 75 to 150 lb. test twisted and braided Spectra kite line after sleeving the Spectra line with 150 ld. test hollow core Dacron.  I have never had the TALK slip in these flight lines.  I have used these lines on large kites that have a heavy pull, strong enough to drag my lovely 110 pound wife down the flying field.  I have tied the TALK in Para Cord and tested it to the extent of my strength and have never had the line slip even though the end of the loop was open, just my finger stuck in the open loop.  I have tied the TALK in 1/4" thick Nylon rope without the knot slipping.  I have also tied the TALK in various strings, where it can be almost impossible to adjust because it cinches so tightly.  I have also tied the TALK in natural hemp rope of small diameter and never had the knot slip.

Because of the way the force is directed straight down the standing part when pressure is exerted at the apex of the loop, the cord is cinched tightly and will not slip.  Of course extra strength is added when the loop is actually looped around an object and secured with a simple hitch.  The less slippery the line the tighter the knot becomes although I have tied it in bare braided Spectra kite line and it held.  I have tied it in slender rubber and plastic coated braided core electrical wire.  It held.

I am attaching 2 pics showing how I tie the TALK.  I have even tied it in the opposite "hand" by reversing the way the Figure of Eight knot is tied. 

Fig. 1 shows a Figure of Eight knot with the working part passed back under the right hand loop on the same side that it first passed.  Then passed over the center crossing, then passing under the left hand loop beneath the standing part.  To cinch the knot simply hold the working end and the standing part in one hand while placing a finger inside the loop created to the right of the Figure of Eight Knot and pull fast and hard.

Fig. 2 shows the cinched TALK.  To adjust the loop thus adjusting the length of the line overall, simply hold the central part of the TALK and pull on the working end to loosen the knot.  Once loose simply adjust the loop longer or smaller by pulling either the inside or outside of the working end.

The TALK can be used anywhere a Double Overhand Loop is used and in much the same way only with the added benefit of adjustability.
Title: Re: True Adjustable Loop Knot or TALK for short
Post by: Sweeney on March 27, 2015, 03:28:08 PM
Welcome to the forum John. I don't recall the configuration you show here but there are a number of ways of rethreading a figure 8 knot and others may have come across this before. I would however draw your attention to the simpler - but similar in the way it works - bowstring knot (Ashley #151).  Try comparing the two and see what you think.

Barry
Title: Re: True Adjustable Loop Knot or TALK for short
Post by: roo on March 27, 2015, 04:52:05 PM
This loop knot came up in the original discussions on rec.crafts.knots (https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups#!searchin/rec.crafts.knots/dave$20poston/rec.crafts.knots/IzMh-vPnU1s/PtZLdN_PgywJ) on the HFP Slippery 8 Loop (http://notableknotindex.webs.com/slippery8.html):

Quote
Just thought I'd put in my two cents worth.

I found a knot that looks very much like the knot seen here. It's
published in Graumont & Hensell "Encyclopedia of knots and fancy rope
work" as the figure of eight throat tie (page 97, plate 45 knot 308 --in
my first edition I don't know about current numbers etc.). There is
however a difference between that knot and the present one. The  end
forming the loop passes through the figure of eight knot from the other
side (i.e. in present knot standing end and running end lie on opposite
sides of knot, in figure of eight throat knot the standing end and
running end lie on the same side). I think the debate should focus on
whether this modification justifies a new name.

John Walker

Title: Re: True Adjustable Loop Knot or TALK for short
Post by: xarax on March 27, 2015, 06:58:31 PM
   Regarding adjustable loops based on a fig.8 knot tied on the Standing Part before the eye, it is very easy to see that it is better if the Working End after the eye follows the same path as the one you show, but traces it in the opposite direction.
   My preferred adjustable loops are the two loops shown in the attached pictures, where, instead of a fig.8  knot, we use a symmetric or an asymmetric Pretzel-shaped knot. These loops are more secure than the fig.8-based loops - perhaps because the line in a Pretzel-shaped nub is less convoluted than the line in a fig.8 nub, and this means that the tensile forces which run along it can nip a penetrating line more efficiently, without been "wasted" inside the nub itself.

   Two things determine how tightly the nub can squeeze the penetrating line, in order to immobilize it. First, how convoluted the nub is - with very complex nubs, the tensile forces are "wasted" inside the many internal turns, leaving a small, only, percentage of them able to reach the penetrating line. We can describe a very convoluted nub as a semi-rigid "cocoon" which encircles the penetrating line, but also "protects" it, to some degree, from been constricted as much as possible. Second, the shape of the continuation of the returning eye leg. When it is L-shaped or helical, i.e., when it offers a "handle" by which the nub can grab it tightly, a curvilinear segment which works like an obstacle that can not slip through the nub as easily as a segment of a straight line, the situation improves. That is why it is always better to make the continuation of the returning eye leg enter into the nub through the opposite direction of the one you show, independently of the form of the nub ( fig.8-shaped or Pretzel-shaped).

P.S. Another reason I prefer a Pretzel-shaped nub, rather than a fig.8-based one, is that the former can easily lead to a TIB knot, as it happens with the Pretzel loop, or the Helical-Strangle loop, or the asymmetric-Pretzel-based Helical loop - but that is a matter we better discuss in another thread. 
Title: Re: True Adjustable Loop Knot or TALK for short
Post by: oneloneknot on March 29, 2015, 02:33:59 PM
Welcome to the forum John. I don't recall the configuration you show here but there are a number of ways of rethreading a figure 8 knot and others may have come across this before. I would however draw your attention to the simpler - but similar in the way it works - bowstring knot (Ashley #151).  Try comparing the two and see what you think.

Barry

Thanks.

I did look at and tied knot 151.  Close but it is not my knot.  It is simpler and I think it is more likely to fail under heavy loads tha the TALK.
Title: Re: True Adjustable Loop Knot or TALK for short
Post by: oneloneknot on March 29, 2015, 07:55:32 PM
This loop knot came up in the original discussions on rec.crafts.knots (https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups#!searchin/rec.crafts.knots/dave$20poston/rec.crafts.knots/IzMh-vPnU1s/PtZLdN_PgywJ) on the HFP Slippery 8 Loop (http://notableknotindex.webs.com/slippery8.html):

Quote
Just thought I'd put in my two cents worth.

I found a knot that looks very much like the knot seen here. It's
published in Graumont & Hensell "Encyclopedia of knots and fancy rope
work" as the figure of eight throat tie (page 97, plate 45 knot 308 --in
my first edition I don't know about current numbers etc.). There is
however a difference between that knot and the present one. The  end
forming the loop passes through the figure of eight knot from the other
side (i.e. in present knot standing end and running end lie on opposite
sides of knot, in figure of eight throat knot the standing end and
running end lie on the same side). I think the debate should focus on
whether this modification justifies a new name.

John Walker

Again, not my Knot.  It is tied completely different and does not look the same once pulled tight.
Title: Re: True Adjustable Loop Knot or TALK for short
Post by: Dan_Lehman on March 29, 2015, 08:02:33 PM
...  My story begins in the late 90's.
// ... there had to be an adjustable loop knot available ... I borrowed every book ...

This sounds much like me, who in a time of much lesser
knots knowledge (prior any real attention, even), had sought
just the same sort of thing, w/o luck.  IIRC, it might've been
some similar working of the overhand knot as Sweeney points
to in Ashley --it was for an activity never done  (of tying off
upperclassmen dorm doorknobs on opposite sides ...).

And otherwise, in looking back to where what I've come to
call "the Quick8 eyeknot" was first captured in ink by me,
I find far earlier reaches into this structure though always
with some collared finish of the tail (bowlinesque & other),
which to my mind show that I had not then realized that
the fig.8 main body would nip the tail adequately (in an
evenly loaded eye)!  These efforts came in the '80s and maybe
also later (in ignorance of earlier fiddling, I suppose, alas).

More recently, I had the quick8 tested with the simple extension
of tucking the tail back through the main nip of the fig.8
--i.e., between the eye legs at their entry-- in 5/16" 12-strand
HMPE rope; this held to rupture, and IMO didn't show hard pulling
to this final tuck (i.e., perhaps that tuck was unneeded here).
It was not as strong as any of the other eye knots (4?) tested
by me, IIRC.  Cf.
http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3810.msg22474#msg22474 (http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3810.msg22474#msg22474)
 [presentation of Lehman8 & Quick8, and tested Dyneema bits]

Is there a good site/image(s) you can point to that will
show kite structures such as you're discussing?

Cheers,
--dl*
====
Title: Re: True Adjustable Loop Knot or TALK for short
Post by: Dan_Lehman on March 29, 2015, 08:08:44 PM
This loop knot came up in the original discussions on rec.crafts.knots (https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups#!searchin/rec.crafts.knots/dave$20poston/rec.crafts.knots/IzMh-vPnU1s/PtZLdN_PgywJ) on the HFP Slippery 8 Loop (http://notableknotindex.webs.com/slippery8.html):

Quote
Just thought I'd put in my two cents worth.

I found a knot that looks very much like the knot seen here. It's
published in Graumont & Hensell "Encyclopedia of knots and fancy rope
work" as the figure of eight throat tie (page 97, plate 45 knot 308 --in
my first edition I don't know about current numbers etc.). There is
however a difference between that knot and the present one. The  end
forming the loop passes through the figure of eight knot from the other
side (i.e. in present knot standing end and running end lie on opposite
sides of knot, in figure of eight throat knot the standing end and
running end lie on the same side). I think the debate should focus on
whether this modification justifies a new name.

John Walker

Again, not my Knot.  It is tied completely different and does not look the same once pulled tight.

???
It is tied exactly like what you (we) present, insofar as
one can determine its tying --i.e., an image of the tied
but open/loose structure is shown devoid of any sort
of tying instruction or indication of S.Part/tail distinction
(could've been referring to a fig.8 noose for all one
can tell!).  (This lousy presentation is typical of this bad book!)
But the shown form matches that shown here,
just w/ambiguity of loading, and purpose of knot.


--dl*
====
Title: Re: True Adjustable Loop Knot or TALK for short
Post by: oneloneknot on March 29, 2015, 08:09:19 PM
   Regarding adjustable loops based on a fig.8 knot tied on the Standing Part before the eye, it is very easy to see that it is better if the Working End after the eye follows the same path as the one you show, but traces it in the opposite direction.
   My preferred adjustable loops are the two loops shown in the attached pictures, where, instead of a fig.8  knot, we use a symmetric or an asymmetric Pretzel-shaped knot. These loops are more secure than the fig.8-based loops - perhaps because the line in a Pretzel-shaped nub is less convoluted than the line in a fig.8 nub, and this means that the tensile forces which run along it can nip a penetrating line more efficiently, without been "wasted" inside the nub itself.

These loops are more secure than the fig.8-based loops - perhaps because the line in a Pretzel-shaped nub is less convoluted than the line in a fig.8 nub, and this means that the tensile forces which run along it can nip a penetrating line more efficiently, without been "wasted" inside the nub itself.


I have never had the TALK slip or break under tension.  Sport kites of the large size can exert enough force to pull someone down the flying field.  The loop is attached to the bridle with a hitch, which puts friction at the end of the loop.  The added friction is not necessary to keep the loop from slipping, but it may give the user peace of mind.  I don't think that the Pretzel knot based loop is any better than the Talk.
Title: Re: True Adjustable Loop Knot or TALK for short
Post by: oneloneknot on March 29, 2015, 08:15:58 PM
This loop knot came up in the original discussions on rec.crafts.knots (https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups#!searchin/rec.crafts.knots/dave$20poston/rec.crafts.knots/IzMh-vPnU1s/PtZLdN_PgywJ) on the HFP Slippery 8 Loop (http://notableknotindex.webs.com/slippery8.html):

Quote
Just thought I'd put in my two cents worth.

I found a knot that looks very much like the knot seen here. It's
published in Graumont & Hensell "Encyclopedia of knots and fancy rope
work" as the figure of eight throat tie (page 97, plate 45 knot 308 --in
my first edition I don't know about current numbers etc.). There is
however a difference between that knot and the present one. The  end
forming the loop passes through the figure of eight knot from the other
side (i.e. in present knot standing end and running end lie on opposite
sides of knot, in figure of eight throat knot the standing end and
running end lie on the same side). I think the debate should focus on
whether this modification justifies a new name.

John Walker

Again, not my Knot.  It is tied completely different and does not look the same once pulled tight.

???
It is tied exactly like what you (we) present, insofar as
one can determine its tying --i.e., an image of the tied
but open/loose structure is shown devoid of any sort
of tying instruction or indication of S.Part/tail distinction
(could've been referring to a fig.8 noose for all one
can tell!).  (This lousy presentation is typical of this bad book!)
But the shown form matches that shown here,
just w/ambiguity of loading, and purpose of knot.


--dl*
====

Because of the limit of the size and number of pic allowed per post I had to reduce my pics to the size shown.  I will find some larger cord/rope and post my pics elsewhere and simply put a link to them so everyone can see clearly just how the TALK is tied.
Title: Re: True Adjustable Loop Knot or TALK for short
Post by: roo on March 29, 2015, 09:41:50 PM
This loop knot came up in the original discussions on rec.crafts.knots (https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups#!searchin/rec.crafts.knots/dave$20poston/rec.crafts.knots/IzMh-vPnU1s/PtZLdN_PgywJ) on the HFP Slippery 8 Loop (http://notableknotindex.webs.com/slippery8.html):

Quote
Just thought I'd put in my two cents worth.

I found a knot that looks very much like the knot seen here. It's
published in Graumont & Hensell "Encyclopedia of knots and fancy rope
work" as the figure of eight throat tie (page 97, plate 45 knot 308 --in
my first edition I don't know about current numbers etc.). There is
however a difference between that knot and the present one. The  end
forming the loop passes through the figure of eight knot from the other
side (i.e. in present knot standing end and running end lie on opposite
sides of knot, in figure of eight throat knot the standing end and
running end lie on the same side). I think the debate should focus on
whether this modification justifies a new name.

John Walker

Again, not my Knot.  It is tied completely different and does not look the same once pulled tight.
I think you may be reading too quickly.  The HFP Slippery 8 is not your knot, but the cousin described by John Walker is.  The HFP Slippery 8 has better holding power due to the increased total angle of curvature of the final leg's knotted path.

Title: Re: True Adjustable Loop Knot or TALK for short
Post by: xarax on March 29, 2015, 10:11:19 PM
  The HFP Slippery 8 has better holding power due to the increased total angle of curvature of the final leg's knotted path.

   This is a RARE incident I agree with the author of the above comment - myself I had described this curvature as an L-shaped "handle", an obstacle regarding slippage, and to obtain it one has to drive the continuation of the returning eye leg through the nub from the "upper" to the "lower" part of it ( that is, towards the same direction the continuation of the Standing End follows to reach the tip of the eye) .
Title: Re: True Adjustable Loop Knot or TALK for short
Post by: oneloneknot on March 30, 2015, 02:28:32 AM
Gentlemen,

I am not a professional knot tier.  All your nomenclature is lost on me, so it is hard for me to argue my point.  I will say this, my knot, which I have yet to find in any book I have read, including The Ashley Book of Knots, serves the purpose in which it was intended and it serves it flawlessly.  The knot was intended to be tied in one or both ends of hollow core Dacron kite flying line as well as Spectra kite flying line sleeved with hollow core Dacron.  The ease of adjustability was one of the things that I was looking for and the TALK adjusts with a simple pull of the working end.  Once the adjustment has been made a simple pull on the standing part and the apex of the loop, locks the knot down.  The adjustment does not loosen the basic Figure of Eight knot so there is no excess movement of the loop.  Once the adjustment is made the change in length of the line is stable and the cinching of the knot does not disturb the over all length of the line.

When in use on a train line, or a bridle line or a flight line, the more the force on the line, the tighter the knot becomes.  If the knot is tied in very thin line and too much tension is place on the line, it becomes impossible to untie.  I have not tested it to the point of destruction as I do not have the money or means to do so.  But I stand by my knot and win or lose I will but it up to all other adjustable loop knot tied in the same line.

Once I can find a thicker line I will take step by step pictures, post them elsewhere where I can post ANY NUMBER OF LARGE PICS then post a link to the pics here.
Title: Re: True Adjustable Loop Knot or TALK for short
Post by: roo on March 30, 2015, 04:40:16 AM
  I will say this, my knot [...] serves the purpose in which it was intended and it serves it flawlessly. 
I don't doubt you.  Once the knot is used in other applications where the legs may be loaded unequally due to object rotation, high friction or other factors, then you may have to revisit some of the points discussed in this thread.



Title: Re: True Adjustable Loop Knot or TALK for short
Post by: oneloneknot on March 30, 2015, 11:05:19 AM
  I will say this, my knot [...] serves the purpose in which it was intended and it serves it flawlessly. 
I don't doubt you.  Once the knot is used in other applications where the legs may be loaded unequally due to object rotation, high friction or other factors, then you may have to revisit some of the points discussed in this thread.

Please site me an instance where this might occur.
Title: Re: True Adjustable Loop Knot or TALK for short
Post by: roo on March 30, 2015, 03:02:26 PM
  I will say this, my knot [...] serves the purpose in which it was intended and it serves it flawlessly. 
I don't doubt you.  Once the knot is used in other applications where the legs may be loaded unequally due to object rotation, high friction or other factors, then you may have to revisit some of the points discussed in this thread.

Please site me an instance where this might occur.
So, for relative object rotation, imagine a line swinging around a post or branch.  As the surface digs into the rope, it causes one leg to take more load than the other.

Such an effect can also happen when something traps or clamps the loop legs, such as a when an object is in a pile of other objects, or when the cross-section of an object contains a highly acute angle that wedges the rope in.  In this case, even a tiny change of line direction would then put much more load on one leg of the loop.
Title: Re: True Adjustable Loop Knot or TALK for short
Post by: Dan_Lehman on March 31, 2015, 12:08:08 AM
Again, not my Knot.  It is tied completely different and does not look the same once pulled tight.

???
It is tied exactly like what you (we) present, ...
--dl*
====

Because of the limit of the size and number of pic allowed per post
I had to reduce my pics to the size shown.  I will find some larger
cord/rope and post my pics elsewhere and simply put a link to them
so everyone can see clearly just how the TALK is tied.

Your images above are perfectly clear, as is the one URLinked
to of this forum by me, and that cited in EKFR --there is no
ambiguity as far as the starting structure of the knots is
concerned, nor in your & my case of the drawn-up & set
knot.  And this should be clear to you, too!  (The book doesn't
show clear loading : it's two ends are of equal length and seized
--presumably seized for keeping in place for photography--;
and the brief verbal entry for this knot is typical nonsense for
this book.)


--dl*
====
Title: Re: True Adjustable Loop Knot or TALK for short
Post by: Twine on March 31, 2015, 05:53:27 PM

I did look at and tied knot 151.  Close but it is not my knot.  It is simpler and I think it is more likely to fail under heavy loads tha the TALK.

Hello and welcome, Oneloneknot. I agree that Ashley #151 is not the same as your TALK knot. I don't think Sweeney meant that it was, either, he probably just wanted to show you something you could compare your TALK to. And that bowstring knot is more likely to fail, too, I'm sure. I tried your figure 8 eye variant, and just like you said, it holds very well. Amazingly so, because I always thought you should reeve the working end through the figure 8 from the other end, but your version is neater. I know another adjustable loop, perhaps the best there is, which is described in the 1946 book "The Scouts Book Of Gadgets And Dodges", on page 14. http://www.thedump.scoutscan.com/gadgets.pdf (http://www.thedump.scoutscan.com/gadgets.pdf) Maybe it's not of much use for a kite, but it's very clever, nonetheless.

Then there's the "Capstan Knot" which is not to be confused with the "Collar and Capstan knot" used by anglers,  nor with the "Towboat Hitch" that's apparently also called "Capstan Hitch". The Capstan knot I mean is described by Ohrvall, (he calls it "gangspelsknut") and it has the peculiar property that it is adjustable, but only once. After you pull on the tail it is locked, and difficult to adjust further. Image attached.

I don't know if this Capstan Knot is any good for a kite, but it is quite peculiar, and you may like to try it out, if you're not familiar with it already. It works the opposite way of the TALK knot, since with the Capstan Knot we lock it by pulling on the tail, but your knot locks by pulling on the standing part. I like your knot better than the capstan knot, though, because yours is easier to adjust.

Twine
Title: Re: True Adjustable Loop Knot or TALK for short
Post by: xarax on March 31, 2015, 06:26:08 PM
... it's very clever

  Not really... What it does, can be done with one single knot, instead of two. Also, it would be better if the second / "higher" overhand knot, which secures the Tail End, would had been tighter than the first / "lower" one, which only re-directs the continuation of the returning eye leg downwards - and not vice versa, as it is the case in this adjustable loop. Nevertheless, it is conceptually simple, that is true, and it is based on the method of adding an L-shaped ( here, a U-shaped *), or a helically-shaped, curvilinear segment ( a "handle"/ "obstacle" ) on the line one wants to be nipped and immobilized, as in the other knots discussed in this thread.

* A U-shaped segment of a tensioned loop makes the adjustment a two-step, and somewhat more difficult process. I prefer an L-shaped "handle".
Title: Re: True Adjustable Loop Knot or TALK for short
Post by: Twine on March 31, 2015, 07:28:59 PM
... it's very clever

  Not really... What it does, can be done with one single knot, instead of two. Also, it would be better if the second / higher overhand knot, which secures the Tail End, would had been tighter than the first / lower one, which only re-directs the continuation of the returning eye leg downwards - and not vice versa, as it is the case in this adjustable loop. Nevertheless, it is conceptually simple, that is true, and it is based on the method of adding an L-shaped, or helically-shaped, curvilinear segment ( a "handle"/ "obstacle" ) on the line one wants to be nipped and immobilized, as in the other knots discussed in this thread.

Plese notice that this rope mechanism (we shouldn't call it a knot, I think) exposes part of the bound tail between the two overhand knots. That is clever because that exposed part can be gripped and pulled for adjustment through one of the overhands at a time, which is easier than if it was gripped with the same total force by only a single knot where you would have to overcome the same friction in one go.

I understand and agree with your point about having the last knot around the tail end gripping harder than the other. Without actually trying this, I guess the effect we are after could be achieved by instead having the other knot (where the working end is bent back) grip *looser* around the tail. That could be done by making that knot a figure 8 or even a figure 9. It is my experience that these knots don't bind with the same force as a regular overhand knot.

Or perhaps the last overhand knot could be replaced with two half-hitches? I havent tried, so I can't really be sure about how good it would be.

<EDIT>
I just tried it. The figure 8 for some reason seems to grip harder in this configuration than the regular overhand. And with two half-hitches to lock the end of the tail in place the whole thing turned out to be much more difficult to adjust, at least when trying to expand the loop. Pulling it tighter was easier. I tried with a cow-hitch as well, but that tends to deform into a locking knot when you don't expect it, so it was no good.

Now I think the original knot was good enough, no need to improve it.
</EDIT>

Twine
Title: Re: True Adjustable Loop Knot or TALK for short
Post by: xarax on April 01, 2015, 01:10:24 AM
... this rope mechanism ( we shouldn't call it a knot, I think )...

  This is a veeery difficult issue, which we had discussed time and again in this Forum, without becoming able to reach at any consensus. I want only to point out that a ( practical ) "knot" is already a rope mechanism - and perhaps it is nothing more than that.

... that exposed part can be gripped and pulled for adjustment through one of the overhands at a time, which is easier than if it was gripped with the same total force by only a single knot where you would have to overcome the same friction in one go.

  Interesting point. However, when the loop is loaded ( even with a fraction of the total, final working load ), the first / "higher" overhand knot does most of the job, so what you really gain is not that much.
  The problem is more essential : as I said, the continuation of the returning eye leg, when it goes through the first, more tight nipping structure, follows a U-shaped, rather than an L-shaped path. This maximizes the friction and the capstan effect at the tip of the U-turn, and so makes the job of the second / "lower" overhand knot a lot easier, but it also makes the adjusting of the loop a two-stage, more difficult and less quick procedure, if it is even partially loaded.
   I believe I had tied and tried all the single-knot adjustable loops there can be, and I had not seen anything more secure, and TIB, than the Pretzel loop.
 
 
  I think the original knot was good enough, no need to improve it.

 :) The first wheel was good enough ( one would even say "perfect enough" :) ), but we have been improving it for six thousand years now...  :) :)
Title: Re: True Adjustable Loop Knot or TALK for short
Post by: xarax on April 01, 2015, 01:56:13 AM
... described by Ohrvall, ( he calls it "gangspelsknut" )

  This knot is a Helical loop (1) - but a not-good one !  :) The symmetric-Pretzel-based Helical loop shown in this thread ( third picture, at Reply#3 ) is a much-much better knot. The asymmetric-Pretzel-shaped Helical loop is also TIB (2).
  I wonder how people can tie some "new" knots that seem promising, but then do not try to understand how they work, in order to become able to improve them further. Any convoluted enough knot, on the continuation of the returning eye leg, which is wrapped inside one or more helical turns, on the continuation of the Standing End, belongs to this family of Helical loops - but this "gangspesknut" is probably one of the worst ! 

1. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4949
2. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=5227.msg34173#msg34173
Title: Re: True Adjustable Loop Knot or TALK for short
Post by: xarax on April 01, 2015, 03:21:26 AM
   I understand and agree with your point about having the last knot around the tail end gripping harder than the other... I guess the effect we are after could be achieved by instead having the other knot (where the working end is bent back ) grip *looser* around the tail. That could be done by making that knot a figure 8 or even a figure 9.

  OR... Or a figure 0 !  :)
  I mean, instead of having the continuation of the returning eye leg pass through a closed overhand knot, we can reeve it through the open eye of a slipped overhand knot, the same way we do in the Trucker s hitch.
  Going one step further, if we want to avoid tying a second / "lower" overhand knot altogether, we can drive the Working End around the encircled object for a second time ( that is, use a double loop ) and secure the Tail End in between the two opposed bights, a la Trucker s hitch, the way explained in (1) and shown in the attached picture.
   
  OR... Or let the continuation of the returning eye leg pass firstly through the less tight overhand knot, the "lower" one, then pass again around the object for a second time, and finally be secured at the more tight overhand knot, the "higher" one.
   Both those double loop / two-eye solutions use much more material, of course, but they are also much more secure - the tensile forces running along the four legs of the two eyes are smaller, therefore the load the last leg and the last, "higher" overhand knot would have to carry, is lighter.

    See also :
    http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3937.msg23378#msg23378

1. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1870.msg17364#msg17364
Title: Re: True Adjustable Loop Knot or TALK for short
Post by: xarax on April 01, 2015, 02:13:28 PM
   The Guyline hitch itself is not such a simple knot as it looks... Each of the two overhand knots has three openings, and the penetrating line can pass through them from the one or from the other side : 2 x 3 x 2 = 12 distinct possibilities. Under heavy loading, some of them may be re-dressed by themselves into some others, so the total number is not 12 - but it is not 1 either !  :) (*) Moreover, both knots may have the same ( both overhand or both underhand ) or the opposite handedness - and the last leg of the Tail End may be parallel or twisted around the eye leg in a clockwise or counter-clockwise way... Oh, my KnotGod !  :)  I have seen that there ARE differences in the choking power ( regarding the first knot ) or the holding power ( regarding the second knot ) of those distinct loops, but I am not able to measure them.
   One has to tie all of them, load them, and see which tend to be transformed into others and which retain their individual form, and then test them in a systematic way...

(*) For example, see one of the many district forms of the Guyline hitch at the attached picture )
Title: Re: True Adjustable Loop Knot or TALK for short
Post by: Dan_Lehman on April 01, 2015, 02:50:30 PM
   The Guyline hitch itself is not such a simple knot as it looks...
//
 * For example, see how the "same" knot is depicted at :
    http://www.netplaces.com/knots/making-hitches/guy-line-hitch.htm 
    ( See the attached picture, of one Guyline hitch, as shown in the page of this site )
THAT is not the guyline hitch commonly cited,
but a mistaken image of it : the overhands BOTH
lie in the S.Part of the commonly cited structure,
not one each in S.Part/tail.

--dl*
====
Title: Re: True Adjustable Loop Knot or TALK for short
Post by: xarax on April 01, 2015, 02:57:20 PM
   Correct, the picture I had used was a picture of a different, or of a wrongly tied knot - I edited my post, and I now use a picture taken by me, to illustrate what I was talking about.
   My intention was to point out that we can tie "overhand/underhand" knots of the same or of different handedness, we can pass the penetrating line through them from the one or the other side, and that the last leg can be parallel to or twisted around the eye leg, etc. 
   The way/angle lines meet each other influences the friction forces generated between them at the area of contact. In the binder shown below, the green lines show the directions of the two segments of the rope as it reaches/leaves this area - we see that they are not parallel to each other, as in the Guyline hitch cited "commonly"  :).
Title: Re: True Adjustable Loop Knot or TALK for short
Post by: Sweeney on April 01, 2015, 03:08:12 PM
For what it's worth the "Guyline Hitch" referred to in   http://www.netplaces.com/knots/making-hitches/guy-line-hitch.htm (http://www.netplaces.com/knots/making-hitches/guy-line-hitch.htm) is actually a Bowstring Knot with an overhand added around the loop leg in the final picture - which seems pointless - an overhand in the working end is all that's needed.

Barry
Title: Re: True Adjustable Loop Knot or TALK for short
Post by: xarax on April 01, 2015, 04:25:08 PM
... the "Guyline Hitch" referred to...

  The verbal description of the knot is OK, it is the third sketch that is wrong.

 " 1 Make an Overhand Knot some distance from the end, so that you leave enough running end to pass around the object and then back to the Overhand.
   2 Pass the running end back through the bottom of the Overhand Knot.
      Sometimes two Overhand Knots are tied next to each other in the standing part. The running end is passed through the first one to provide the grip and the second one to hold the end down.

   3 Tie two Overhand Knots in the standing part, and tuck the running end into the second one."
 
Title: Re: True Adjustable Loop Knot or TALK for short
Post by: oneloneknot on April 02, 2015, 01:45:02 PM
To see a step by step pictorial of how I tie the TALK go here http://trueadjustableloopknot.blogspot.com/ (http://trueadjustableloopknot.blogspot.com/)
Title: Re: True Adjustable Loop Knot or TALK for short
Post by: Twine on April 04, 2015, 09:46:24 PM
Again, not my Knot.  It is tied completely different and does not look the same once pulled tight.

???
It is tied exactly like what you (we) present, ...
--dl*
====

Because of the limit of the size and number of pic allowed per post
I had to reduce my pics to the size shown.  I will find some larger
cord/rope and post my pics elsewhere and simply put a link to them
so everyone can see clearly just how the TALK is tied.

Your images above are perfectly clear, as is the one URLinked
to of this forum by me, and that cited in EKFR --there is no
ambiguity as far as the starting structure of the knots is
concerned, nor in your & my case of the drawn-up & set
knot.  And this should be clear to you, too!  (The book doesn't
show clear loading : it's two ends are of equal length and seized
--presumably seized for keeping in place for photography--;
and the brief verbal entry for this knot is typical nonsense for
this book.)


--dl*
====

Hi Dan! Looks like Oneloneknot doesn't believe you or anyone else who tells him that his knot is published already. Such scepticism is not an unreasonable attitude for anyone who reads posts in an Internet forum. But perhaps he could be convinced if you were to post a photo or a scan of that "Figure Eight Throat Tie" figure in the Encyclopedia of Knots and Fancy Ropework. "Seeing is believing", as they say.

/Twine
Title: Re: True Adjustable Loop Knot or TALK for short
Post by: Twine on April 04, 2015, 10:07:22 PM

* A U-shaped segment of a tensioned loop makes the adjustment a two-step, and somewhat more difficult process. I prefer an L-shaped "handle".

I have to admit that I didn't understand your U-shape and L-shape distinctions, but now I have played around a bit with Oneloneknot's TALK knot, compared it to the Slippery 8 and the Guyline knot, and I think I see what you mean. The Slippery Eight and the Guyline both have these U-shapes, while the TALK knot (AKA the Figure Eight Throat Tie) has the L-shape, right?
Title: Re: True Adjustable Loop Knot or TALK for short
Post by: xarax on April 05, 2015, 12:33:49 AM
   Right. I should perhaps had said "upside down" U, and "upside down" L - but what is "up" and what is "down" ?  :)
   A U-shaped continuation of the returning eye leg is more secure, regarding slippage, but an L-shaped one can be adjusted more easily. I believe that it is difficult to achieve a U-shaped turn which, when we pull the Tail End in order to adjust the loop, is not too tightly nipped into the surrounding nub ( unless the nub is O-shaped at the tip / point of the turn, that is, unless we use an open bight, like the one we use in the Trucker s hitch ). Anyway, if the nub is tight enough ( as it happens in the case of the Pretzel loop ) even an L-shaped segment can be griped, "locked" and immobilized, very efficiently. 
Title: Re: True Adjustable Loop Knot or TALK for short
Post by: Dan_Lehman on April 05, 2015, 09:32:13 PM
Again, not my Knot.  It is tied completely different and does not look the same once pulled tight.

???
It is tied exactly like what you (we) present, ...
--dl*
====

... post my pics elsewhere and simply put a link to them ...

[ which was done, as noted by the OP :
To see a step by step pictorial of how I tie the TALK go here
 http://trueadjustableloopknot.blogspot.com/

NB : A typo renders this the "TURE ... Knot".   ;)
]


Your images above are perfectly clear, as is the one URLinked
to of this forum by me,
and that cited in EKFR
--there is no ambiguity as far as the starting structure of the knots is
concerned, nor in your & my case of the drawn-up & set
knot.  And this should be clear to you, too!  (The book doesn't
show clear loading : it's two ends are of equal length and seized
--presumably seized for keeping in place for photography--;
and the brief verbal entry for this knot is typical nonsense for
this book.)
--dl*
====

Looks like Oneloneknot doesn't believe you or anyone else who tells him
that his knot is published already. Such scepticism is not an unreasonable
attitude for anyone who reads posts in an Internet forum.  But perhaps
he could be convinced if you were to post a photo or a scan of that
"Figure Eight Throat Tie" figure in the Encyclopedia of Knots and Fancy Ropework.
"Seeing is believing", as they say.

/Twine

But we have more *local* sights, as I noted above (in bold),
with a URLink to my own images & knot.  (My old findings
in notebooks pretty well suggest that I did NOT realize
how secure the knot the OP presents is --in that in the
cases I found, I had run the tail back through the body
for presumed needed security!  I didn't find where I first
made what I call the "quick8" --the OP's knot.

(There is a difference in the orientation (top/bottom, so to speak)
of the knot's image in EKFR, which might be what has
deflected the OP from realizing the match.  Beyond that, as I noted,
"Hansel & Gretel" give no helpful information about its actual use
& loading (--"a figure of 8 knot tied through the bight ..." :: huh???!)

BTW, I was unable --from one system-- to see the references that
Roo cited, so don't know what images (or not) are present there.)


--dl*
====
Title: Re: True Adjustable Loop Knot or TALK for short
Post by: Dan_Lehman on April 05, 2015, 09:43:54 PM
It is tied exactly like what you (we) present, ...
--dl*
====
Hi Dan! Looks like Oneloneknot doesn't believe you or anyone else who tells him
that his knot is published already.

Let me be perspicuous* re this :: OneLoneKnot has discovered
for/by himself a pretty neat/good knot !!  --no matter where
it might have resided unknown to him (et al.).  I think that
I might've gotten there first, but what does that matter,
if so?  I'm sure that when I first got to that *neighborhood*
I did NOT recognize this knot as such, and thought to further
tuck the tail.  I'm more happy that we both found it, and it has
seen light --extra light via his efforts, I think!

Let me add that the tail of the OP's knot can be tucked
back into the knot between the eye legs at their entry,
and snugged down to be fairly secure-when-slack
--with assured security when (normally --not "ring-"-- loaded).
(This particular tucking came with my realization of the OP's
knot whenever that was; the earlier re-tucking was to make
a bowlinesque collar, which I thought was necessary,
whereas for the latter tucking I was deliberately seeking
not in-load-security but slack-security.)


--dl*
====

[*Yes, "perspicuous" : use it or lose it! :o]
Title: Re: True Adjustable Loop Knot or TALK for short
Post by: Twine on April 06, 2015, 11:40:34 AM

But we have more *local* sights, as I noted above (in bold),
with a URLink to my own images & knot. 


But your knots at that URL, http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3810.msg22474#msg22474 (http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3810.msg22474#msg22474)  are not adjustable loops, they are fixed eyes, so they're not the same, neither in function nor geometry, as the knot of the OP. Thus, they don't constitute prior publication.

Quote
(My old findings
in notebooks pretty well suggest that I did NOT realize
how secure the knot the OP presents is --in that in the
cases I found, I had run the tail back through the body
for presumed needed security!  I didn't find where I first
made what I call the "quick8" --the OP's knot.

Are you saying that your discovery of the Quick8 (if it really is the same as the adjustable loop the OP calls TALK, which is hard to determine due to lack of picture or description of Quick8) pre-dates his discovery? I seem to recall reading of a knot by the name of Quick8 somewhere, so you may well have a point, but I can't seem to find it anywhere right now.

Oh, I found a description of it now. Inside a parenthesis in your post at
http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3810.msg22474#msg22474 (http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3810.msg22474#msg22474)
which I quote here:
Quote
I'll attach photos to this post of what
I proudly name the "Lehman8" and --hmmm-- "Collared8"
(to which knots' common mid-state of completion lies what I
call the "Quick8" and then "tucked Quick8"

A picture would have been better, but okay, what you describe (and do not depict) must be the same as what Oneloneknot calls the TALK knot, so the structure wasn't new. But did you also come up with the idea of using it to make an adjustable eye?

Quote
(There is a difference in the orientation (top/bottom, so to speak)
of the knot's image in EKFR, which might be what has
deflected the OP from realizing the match.  Beyond that, as I noted,
"Hansel & Gretel" give no helpful information about its actual use
& loading (--"a figure of 8 knot tied through the bight ..." :: huh???!)

"a figure of 8 knot tied through the bight ..."  ::)  Heh. A very strange description. And that's all they had? And did you say that in their illustration the end was seized to the standing part? To me, that makes it obvious they didn't mean it as an adjustable loop.

Quote
BTW, I was unable --from one system-- to see the references that
Roo cited, so don't know what images (or not) are present there.)

I followed Roo's link to the usenet post depicting the Slippery 8, and I arrived at a horrible jumble maning nothing. Turns out that Dave Poston had made some ASCII art to show his knot, but ASCII art turns to a mess when viewed with a proportional font. (See attached picture)
I copied it into Notepad and took a screenshot of it, and it shows a clearer picture. (See the other attached picture)

Note to Oneloneknot: The pictures show (or attempt to show) the Slippery 8; it is NOT the same knot as yours, but it shows a somewhat similar structure. The difference is that in the TALK knot the working end is reeved through the figure 8 in the opposite direction. Personally, I find the TALK a marvel of simplicity, and I happen to agree with Leonardo da Vinci who said that "Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication."

/Twine
Title: Re: True Adjustable Loop Knot or TALK for short
Post by: Twine on April 06, 2015, 12:06:00 PM
Let me be perspicuous* re this :: OneLoneKnot has discovered
for/by himself a pretty neat/good knot !!  --no matter where
it might have resided unknown to him (et al.).  I think that
I might've gotten there first, but what does that matter,
if so?  I'm sure that when I first got to that *neighborhood*
I did NOT recognize this knot as such, and thought to further
tuck the tail.  I'm more happy that we both found it, and it has
seen light --extra light via his efforts, I think!

Let me add that the tail of the OP's knot can be tucked
back into the knot between the eye legs at their entry,
and snugged down to be fairly secure-when-slack
--with assured security when (normally --not "ring-"-- loaded).
(This particular tucking came with my realization of the OP's
knot whenever that was; the earlier re-tucking was to make
a bowlinesque collar, which I thought was necessary,
whereas for the latter tucking I was deliberately seeking
not in-load-security but slack-security.)


--dl*
====

[*Yes, "perspicuous" : use it or lose it! :o]

The word perspicuous isn't very perspicuous to me; I had to look it up. :)

I can easily imagine that you or many other knot-tiers of IGKT have come up with the fairly simple structure of the TALK, but I think Oneloneknot at least should be honored with discovering how surprisingly strong and secure it is while using it as an adjustable eye for kites. I imagine that kite string is very strong and slippery, like monofilament, but I may be wrong, of course.

Quote
Let me add that the tail of the OP's knot can be tucked
back into the knot between the eye legs at their entry,
and snugged down to be fairly secure-when-slack

But the whole point of this knot is that it is easily adjustable. That property is ruined by your extra tuck! Instead, you could tie a stopper knot on the tail. That would keep the adjustability, but prevent the knot from coming undone.

/Twine
Title: Re: True Adjustable Loop Knot or TALK for short
Post by: roo on April 07, 2015, 01:22:19 AM
This loop knot came up in the original discussions on rec.crafts.knots (https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups#!searchin/rec.crafts.knots/dave$20poston/rec.crafts.knots/IzMh-vPnU1s/PtZLdN_PgywJ) on the HFP Slippery 8 Loop (http://notableknotindex.webs.com/slippery8.html):

Quote
Just thought I'd put in my two cents worth.

I found a knot that looks very much like the knot seen here. It's
published in Graumont & Hensell "Encyclopedia of knots and fancy rope
work" as the figure of eight throat tie (page 97, plate 45 knot 308 --in
my first edition I don't know about current numbers etc.). There is
however a difference between that knot and the present one. The  end
forming the loop passes through the figure of eight knot from the other
side (i.e. in present knot standing end and running end lie on opposite
sides of knot, in figure of eight throat knot the standing end and
running end lie on the same side). I think the debate should focus on
whether this modification justifies a new name.

John Walker

Attached is #308 from the Encyclopedia of Knots and Fancy Ropework and it is the same as the "TALK" knot.  The book calls it the Figure-of-Eight Throat or Emergency Tie, but gives little indication of any real evaluation of it and stupidly fails to indicate which end is the standing part.  But this is a visual indication of what was being discussed relative to the the Slippery Eight Loop in rec.crafts.knots.
Title: Re: True Adjustable Loop Knot or TALK for short
Post by: Twine on April 07, 2015, 04:36:51 AM
Attached is #308 from the Encyclopedia of Knots and Fancy Ropework and it is the same as the "TALK" knot.  The book calls it the Figure-of-Eight Throat or Emergency Tie, but gives little indication of any real evaluation of it and stupidly fails to indicate which end is the standing part.  But this is a visual indication of what was being discussed relative to the the Slippery Eight Loop in rec.crafts.knots.

Thanks for providing the picture, Roo. The picture shows that the authors of the Encyclopedia had no understanding of the knot. I can imagine no practical use for the seized form as shown. And what do they mean by Throat Tie? Am I supposed to use it to tie my scarf or my necktie? (Maybe not a bad idea, come to think of it, but do I really want to seize the ends of my scarf together?) And "Emergency Tie" is quite ambiguos too. What emergency? A fire, a car accident, a robbery, an asthma attack or what? So since the Encyclopedists fail to say anything instructive about it, we must assume they copied it from some other source. If they had invented it themselves they would have had more to say about it.

By the age of the Encyclopedia in question, we can determine that the knot was discovered some time before 1943. Therefore, both Dan and Oneloneknot have independently discovered or invented this knot, but were probaly not the first to do so. Since it already has the name Quick8, I think we should keep that name, and not add the name TALK as well. The names in the Encyclopedia of Knots and Fancy Ropework are possibly misleading, so even if they are older, I would not advocate their use.

I found a post in this forum (http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4965.msg32752#msg32752 (http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4965.msg32752#msg32752)) where Dan explicitly speaks of the Quick8 as an adjustable loop, so we see that Dan and Oneloneknot are not only speaking of exactly the same structure, but also have the same usage in mind.

I think we must conclude that Dan Lehman's publication of the knot predates Oneloneknot's, but that there may well exist an earlier publication, which the Encyclopedia writers have looked at, misunderstood and simply copied.

/Twine
Title: Re: True Adjustable Loop Knot or TALK for short
Post by: oneloneknot on April 07, 2015, 11:44:40 AM
Sadly, which leaves me heartbroken (I knew that I could not have invented a new knot) that EKRW308, which I think you all are calling the "Quick 8" is a LEFT HAND version of my TALK and is tied exactly like I tie a left handed TALK.  Thanks for all your time and effort on my behalf.

-John
Title: Re: True Adjustable Loop Knot or TALK for short
Post by: Twine on April 10, 2015, 04:36:32 AM
Don't be sad, Oneloneknot! At least you have discovered a great knot. Not everyone can do that. The greatest thing about inventing a knot isn't really some kind of fame and glory from being the first discoverer of it, but the pride and joy in one's own creativity and inventiveness. Also, you shouldn't be surprised that Dan Lehman found it before you, because he's a genius at knot-tying. I don't think he is sad about not being the first to think of the structure of the Quick8.

Me, I have *never* come up with a new, good knot by myself. My last attempt was to lock two half-hitches in the same way as Xarax (another genius knot-tyer on these boards -- we have lots of them) locked a cow-hitch, i.e. by a single tuck of the end under the rest of the hitch. But it turned out that his locked cow hitch was better, because it both grips harder and is easier to untie. Anyway, I wouldn't be at all surprised if Xarax or someone else has already tried that hitch and found it lacking. Every knot I use regularly is invented by someone else, it seems. Does that make me sad? No, I take great comfort in just knowing many knots so I can try to pick the best for each purpose and be fairly sure it isn't a bad knot.

The adjustable figure of 8 loop, Quick8, is both neat and practical, and I'm grateful that you brought it to my attention, because I had never seen it before. Well, I may have seen Dan's description, but a wordy description without illustration doesn't often inspire me to try tying a knot to see what it's like. But I'll remember it now, and I think I shall often use it when I need an adjustable loop from now on.

What kind of string do you use with the kites? Is it something like Kevlar?

/Twine
Title: Re: True Adjustable Loop Knot or TALK for short
Post by: Dan_Lehman on April 12, 2015, 08:48:44 PM
Sadly, which leaves me heartbroken (I knew that I could not have invented a new knot) that EKRW308, which I think you all are calling the "Quick 8" is a LEFT HAND version of my TALK and is tied exactly like I tie a left handed TALK.  Thanks for all your time and effort on my behalf.

-John
It's not at all clear what "Hansel & Gretel" intended,
or if they had any real intent at all --really, so MUCH
of that book is just like this, with even absurd knots
and just nothing for verbal explanation!!!  (And what
can we attribute the resounding silence about this book
to?  What does that say of its readers?!)

Indeed, one might presume that, insofar as H&G say
that it's a "quick" way of attachment, that they probably
mean for it to be taken as a HITCH --one doesn't tediously
form a fig.8 and then carefully reeve the tail through,
to form the quick8, but rather one quickly turns the line
around the to-be-hitched object and then ties a fig.8 hitch
to the line (making a noose-hitch)!

And, so, you have seen what they did not, and what I did not
when I had gotten just so far but felt that I wasn't done.
Only later did I realize the "quick8" viability.
Moreover, you've put the knot to good use.  (I've tested the
re-tucked knot, in Dyneema 5/16" rope, one specimen with
the knot at both ends, so one survived.)


--dl*
====
Title: Re: True Adjustable Loop Knot or TALK for short
Post by: roo on April 12, 2015, 10:05:34 PM
Sadly, which leaves me heartbroken (I knew that I could not have invented a new knot) that EKRW308, which I think you all are calling the "Quick 8" is a LEFT HAND version of my TALK and is tied exactly like I tie a left handed TALK.  Thanks for all your time and effort on my behalf.

-John
It's not at all clear what "Hansel & Gretel" intended,
I did try reversing the standing part and free end, and it causes some drastic form changes that would seem to preclude the alternate loading as the intended form.  The book's level of clarity does leave much to be desired.
Title: Re: True Adjustable Loop Knot or TALK for short
Post by: Dan_Lehman on April 13, 2015, 05:55:06 PM
...
It's not at all clear what "Hansel & Gretel" intended,
I did try reversing the standing part and free end, and it causes some drastic form changes that would seem to preclude the alternate loading as the intended form.  The book's level of clarity does leave much to be desired.

Firstly, thanks for posting the book's image.
And we can match that generally to ABOK's #1116,
a noose-hitch (but H&G give no verbal hint of "noose").

Secondly, the underscored assertion is just WAY too kind:
the book is absolutely bonkers in sooo many places --it's
a good way to get a laugh, but in so doing, one --again--
must wonder how the book survives and without any
such harsh indictment as I'm (belatedly, I'm abashed to
acknowledge) giving now !!  --this book preceded ABOK,
after all, and has gone through at least 4 editions.

(Just one of the many comic gems taken from the region
of this book under discussion now:
Quote
The Combination Square Knot Hitch has a hitch tied through
a Combination Square Knot.
--for #311, which shows what can be described as a square
knot
with tails brought across respective S.Parts to become
fused on the outside of the S.Parts's crossing (and by fusion
rendering this a knot in a single strand, not end-2-end).
--looks like an overhand where the "belly" (Asher's term) forms
a turNip (you-know-who's) around the crossing part.
And I find no reference for "C.S.K.", the referred-to knot
(as though someone should/could know what this is).
.:.  Truly appalling --both the book AND the lack of criticism,
the continued publishing!!)


--dl*
====
Title: Re: True Adjustable Loop Knot or TALK for short
Post by: Dan_Lehman on April 28, 2015, 07:30:01 PM
Sadly, which leaves me heartbroken
 (I knew that I could not have invented a new knot)
that EKRW308, which I think you all are calling the "Quick 8" is a LEFT HAND
version of my TALK and is tied exactly like I tie a left handed TALK.
Thanks for all your time and effort on my behalf.

-John
I will again say that the EKFR presentation is vague, and
so not clearly a prior discovery, although the knotting
is the same --it's a question of loading, and of function.

But I now see that the OP's goal was previously realized
in a presentation in Knotting Matters (KM) #10, p.13 of
a letter dated 1984-10-23, in which the similar structure
but with a round turn in the *front of the fig.8*
is shown and advocated qua "adjustable dog's lead" (I'm
not sure what one is supposed to do with much tail
"adjusted" out in shrinking an eye!?).  As with the
round turn in a double bowline, the turn put into
the fig.8 (which makes it a "fig.10" --oriented in
the "reverse" way) can be dressed in various ways.

OR WAIT ... , even here it might be otherwise, as I'm
now realizing that there's ambiguity in the illustration
and text as to how this is to be loaded!  I think that
it might be taken like the crabber's eye, in which the
final setting of the knot --at that point, really a noose-hitch
(hitching tail to S.Part)-- puts a hard bend into the S.Part
and fairly well locks the knot into position, creating
a "fixed" eye (loop).  This working makes sense of the
text about adjustability, and is more apt for "hitch".

SOoooo, so close yet so far.
.:.  IMO, only I have clearly discovered the OP's knot
(prior or knot, we may leave unknown; but independently),
which shows a nice, gripping aspect of the fig.8.
And OneLoneKnot has put the knot to good use and
advocated for it, and I have had one variant tested
to rupture, in strong rope.

--dl*
====