International Guild of Knot Tyers Forum

General => Practical Knots => Topic started by: Seaworthy on June 17, 2014, 02:16:18 PM

Title: Error in Grog Animated Knots animation?
Post by: Seaworthy on June 17, 2014, 02:16:18 PM
I was browsing through Grogs Animated Knots recently and I found two new additions: the EStar Hitch and the EStar Stopper. They were designed to be useful for tying in unsheathed Dyneema, a line so slippery that sailors currently struggle with how to tie secure knots in it.

For those of you who haven't seen this knot before, if tied correctly the EStar Hitch is the most secure "easy" way known at the moment to tie a hitch using Dyneema (eg Amsteel Blue). From memory Evans Starzinger (the inventor of the knot) reported in January that it did not slip, but broke at 54% of line strength. It is a very useful knot to know if you are using Dyneema on board a boat and need to attach it reasonably securely to something in a hurry.

The EStar Hitch is described and animated under Details of a Buntline Hitch here:
Buntline Hitch | How to tie a Buntline Hitch | Boating Knots (http://www.animatedknots.com/buntline/index.php?Reflection=UR&LogoImage=LogoGrog.jpg&Website=www.animatedknots.com&Categ=boating)

And the EStar Stopper can be found here:
EStar Stopper | How to tie an EStar Stopper Knot | Boating Knots (http://www.animatedknots.com/estarstopper/index.php?Categ=boating&LogoImage=LogoGrog.jpg&Website=www.animatedknots.com)

The animated version for the EStar Hitch shows the initial clove hitch reversed in an odd way. I've never seen a Buntline started like this and the quick animation confused me to no end at first.

In the animation of the stopper, it is shown going the traditional way.

I have contacted the inventor of the knot (Evans Starzinger), but I have had no reply.
I have also posted the query on Cruisers Forum, but as this is a new knot, people are unfamiliar with it and hesitant to say anything, other than one member stating he had never seen a hitch started like this.

This is the frozen image from the animation at the step before a Buntline is extended to form the EStar. This is not like any Buntline I have seen. I think Grogs have made a serious error. I doubt this hitch would hold securely the way Grogs have shown it.

Am I correct in thinking. Grogs have made an error? Any feedback would be wonderful.
Title: Re: Error in Grog Animated Knots animation?
Post by: enhaut on June 17, 2014, 03:30:31 PM
Hi Seaworthy
I have tried these two hitches as shown on the site (buntline and Estar), they are as you mentioned different in the making.
May the author had some reason too put them in the same family :-\
Title: Re: Error in Grog Animated Knots animation?
Post by: Seaworthy on June 17, 2014, 05:25:50 PM
Hi Seaworthy
I have tried these two hitches as shown on the site (buntline and Estar), they are as you mentioned different in the making.
May the author had some reason too put them in the same family :-\

Hi enhaut
Thanks for looking at it. Yes, they are different aren't they!
I am not aware of the inventor having tied two versions. And the version Grog has shown looks weaker to me. Any comment on what you think the strength would be like of the one Grog has shown? My gut feeling is that it is worse.


Title: Re: Error in Grog Animated Knots animation?
Post by: Luca on June 17, 2014, 07:55:04 PM
Hello Seaworthy and enhaut,

My opinion is that Grog, for as shown on its website,ties(for me the picture attached above illustrates a Buntline hitch tied correctly),sets up and loads the knot just as it does EStar:

http://www.bethandevans.com/pdf/estar.pdf

The purpose of EStar, in my opinion, is not so much to make a strong knot, but to make a knot that will not slip in any way before the rope reaches the breaking load imposed on it by that knot, using this particular material that is dyneema.
For a discussion on other ways to "mount" this construction around the hitched  object,and/or the ways to load it:

http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4748.msg30673#msg30673

                                                                                                                        Bye!
Title: Re: Error in Grog Animated Knots animation?
Post by: xarax on June 17, 2014, 08:02:22 PM
   The knots you see in various sites are often the result of successful public relations and persistent advertising... :). Also, the "spectacular", animated way they are presented nowadays, to attract the customers/consumers of the commercials, is no testimony about their real value.
   I, too, had asked the author of this hitch to clarify the apparent ambiguity, but I had not received any reply yet. So, anybody is free to chose his own version  :) - and then tell me if it differs from the hitch explained and shown at :
   http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4748.0
Title: Re: Error in Grog Animated Knots animation?
Post by: xarax on June 17, 2014, 08:27:19 PM
For a discussion on other ways to "mount" this construction around the hitched object, and/or the ways to load it:
http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4748.msg30673#msg

   Iff the "EStar" hitch is the one shown at the .pdf file Luca refers to, then it has no relation whatsoever with the knot presented at the post he refers to ! The one knot ( the "EStar hitch") is tied with the "bridge" of the Clove hitch in contact with the hitched object, while the other ( the "Bull Clove hitch" ) is tied "upside down" ( or "inside out" ) ! The fact that the two knots are topologically identical ( if we ignore the hitched object, and do not consider it as part of the knot - which is a debatable issue...), does not, of course, mean that they are the same knot ! I had explained this simple fact at :
   http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4748.msg31703#msg31703
   so I will not do it again...The shown at the .pdf file knot is the same with the knot shown by SS369 at :
   http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4748.msg30678#msg30678
and described as :
 "If you tie it in the bight and reverse the loops, it makes for an interesting hitch as well."
   Interesting it may be, but such a tight hitch as the Bull Clove hitch, it is certainly not ! The squeezed in between the nub of the knot and the surface of the object Clove hitch of this "EStar hitch" can not clinch around the penetrating lines as tightly as the "free" Clove hitch of the Bull Clove hitch.
Title: Re: Error in Grog Animated Knots animation?
Post by: Seaworthy on June 17, 2014, 08:43:35 PM
   The knots you see in various sites are often the result of successful public relations and persistent advertising... :). Also, the "spectacular", animated way they are presented nowadays, to attract the customers/consumers of the commercials, is no testimony about their real value.
   I, too, had asked the author of this hitch to clarify the apparent ambiguity, but I had not received any reply yet. So, anybody is free to chose his own version  :) - and then tell me if it differs from the hitch explained and shown at :
   http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4748.0

xarax, your Bull Hitch is identical to how I imagine the EStar hitch should be tied.
Is the 18th of January the first time you posted about it? I can check when I first saw it discussed by Evan Starzinger.

Here is the front of how I imagine the EStar Hitch should look:
Title: Re: Error in Grog Animated Knots animation?
Post by: Seaworthy on June 17, 2014, 08:47:19 PM
And this is how the Grog animation ties the EStar hitch.

It is not the same knot, but I believe it is a worse knot:

First photo is the back and the second os the front, sorry for the bad order.
Title: Re: Error in Grog Animated Knots animation?
Post by: xarax on June 17, 2014, 08:59:16 PM
   Bull Hitch is identical to how I imagine the EStar hitch should be tied.

   I agree ! It should had been tied this way - but had it ? A knot tied in one way is not the same as a knot tied in another ! Geometry tells if two knots are the same knot, not topology. We have many cases where topologically identical knots are completely different - see, for example, the case of the "bistable knots" (1). The simple-hitch-a-la-Gleipnir, tied the "other" way, is a completely "other" knot, a different knot ! Notice that the corresponding "bridge" of the nipping turn is "free" there, too - if you "reverse" the wraps of the hitch, and tie it so that the "bridge" is in between the nub and the surface of the pole, i.e., if you tie it "upside down" ( or "inside out" ), you do not have such a tight hitch any more.

1. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4201

P.S. To better appreciate the great difference, tie both hitches around a thicker pole. The fact that "EStar hitch" is always shown tied around a carabiner or a ring, explains why many people - and, perhaps, the author of this Estar hitch, too - had not realized how different those two knots are... Another reason may be the fact that, this EStar hitch was conceived as a doubled ( = two wraps ) Buntline hitch - while the Bull Clove hitch was conceived, right from the start, as an improved, tighter Bull hitch, where the already double nipping "neck" is replaced by an even tighter ( almost jamming ! ) Clove hitch "neck".
 
Title: Re: Error in Grog Animated Knots animation?
Post by: Luca on June 17, 2014, 09:56:25 PM
Hi xarax,

For a discussion on other ways to "mount" this construction around the hitched object, and/or the ways to load it:
http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4748.msg30673#msg

   Iff the "EStar" hitch is the one shown at the .pdf file Luca refers to, then it has no relation whatsoever with the knot presented at the post he refers to ! The one knot ( the "EStar hitch") is tied with the "bridge" of the Clove hitch in contact with the hitched object, while the other ( the "Bull Clove hitch" ) is tied "upside down" ( or "inside out" ) ! The fact that the two knots are topologically identical ( if we ignore the hitched object, and do not consider it as part of the knot - which is a debatable issue...), does not, of course, mean that they are the same knot ! I had explained this simple fact at :
   http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4748.msg31703#msg31703
 

OK, I try to write better:

"For a discussion on other ways to "mount" this(mere/bare) construction around the hitched object, and/or the ways to load it,in order to obtain at least four different knots:"

                                                                                                                      Bye!
Title: Re: Error in Grog Animated Knots animation?
Post by: xarax on June 17, 2014, 10:06:27 PM
...in order to obtain at least four different knots

  :)
  Four ? I can see only two - where are the rest ?
  Unless you mean that the each hitch can be loaded from the one or the other free end - but then, as the "same" hitch can also be loaded by both ( as a Cow hitch ), there are six...
Title: Re: Error in Grog Animated Knots animation?
Post by: Seaworthy on June 17, 2014, 10:24:37 PM
   Bull Hitch is identical to how I imagine the EStar hitch should be tied.

   I agree ! It should had been tied this way - but had it ? A knot tied in one way is not the same as a knot tied in another ! Geometry tells if two knots are the same knot, not topology. We have many cases where topologically identical knots are completely different - see, for example, the case of the "bistable knots" (1). The simple-hitch-a-la-Gleipnir, tied the "other" way, is a completely "other" knot, a different knot ! Notice that the corresponding "bridge" of the nipping turn is "free" there, too - if you "reverse" the wraps of the hitch, and tie it so that the "bridge" is in between the nub and the surface of the pole, i.e., if you tie it "upside down" ( or "inside out" ), you do not have such a tight hitch any more.

1. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4201

P.S. To better appreciate the great difference, tie both hitches around a thicker pole. The fact that "EStar hitch" is always shown tied around a carabiner or a ring, explains why many people - and, perhaps, the author of this Estar hitch, too - had not realized how different those two knots are... Another reason may be the fact that, this EStar hitch was conceived as a doubled ( = two wraps ) Buntline hitch - while the Bull Clove hitch was conceived, right from the start, as an improved, tighter Bull hitch, where the already double nipping "neck" is replaced by an even tighter ( almost jamming ! ) Clove hitch "neck".

Xarax, many thanks for all the information.

I have now looked at the link Luca gave in post #4 (my internet is poor on board and I skimmed over it while I posted photos) and I now realise my question has been answered. The EStar Hitch was designed to be tied as Grog has shown it. An error was not made (except by me in thinking Grog was wrong LOL). The photos I presented of what I thought should be the EStar Hitch, were actually the Bull Clove Hitch.

I just could not understand why the EStar Hitch was chosen to be tied this way when It looked like it should be stronger tied with the pass being over, not under the standing end (ie like the Bull Clove Hitch). This impression was not helped by the fact that the EStar Stopper was tied in the manner of the Bull Clove, not the EStar Hitch.

Has anyone compared both hitches in Dyneema?
Title: Re: Error in Grog Animated Knots animation?
Post by: Luca on June 17, 2014, 10:41:56 PM
...in order to obtain at least four different knots

  :)
  Four ? I can see only two - where are the rest ?
  Unless you mean that the each hitch can be loaded from the one or the other free end - but then, as the "same" hitch can also be loaded by both ( as a Cow hitch ), there are six...

You seem to leave the matter pending in the thread of the Modified Bull hitch, not showing what is the standing part in the photos that you have attached...(On second thought the question for me remains pending even as far as the non-modified Bull hitch ...)
Title: Re: Error in Grog Animated Knots animation?
Post by: xarax on June 18, 2014, 12:05:05 AM
  You seem to leave the matter pending in the thread of the Modified Bull hitch, not showing what is the standing part in the photos that you have attached

   In he Bull Clove hitch, I have not seen any difference in the ability of the Clove hitch to grip, immobilize and "lock" the penetrating continuation of the Standing End and/or the Tail End, whichever these may be. Although the loading is different if/when the Standing and the Tail ends are swapped ( and so the geometry of the structure is stabilized differently), in this particular case the difference is so minute, that we should not speak about two different knots, I believe. However, if we turn the "mere/bare construction", as you describe it, inside out, like a glove, and then pass the pole through the two wraps the "other" way, the geometry becomes VERY different - and that is why I insist that the two hitches, the (one ?) EStar hitch, and the Bull Clove hitch, are entirely different knots. It would be great if the inventor of THE supposedly ONE EStar hitch ( iff there was one, only, such knot, tied by him...), would clarify this matter for us... My impression is that he had paid no attention to the difference, because, when tied on Dyneema, around carabiners or rings, the difference is not easily noticeable.

   
  Has anyone compared both hitches in Dyneema?

   I had not tied any knot on a Dyneema rope (yet...) !  :)
Title: Re: Error in Grog Animated Knots animation?
Post by: Seaworthy on June 18, 2014, 04:19:45 AM
...in order to obtain at least four different knots

  :)
  Four ? I can see only two - where are the rest ?
  Unless you mean that the each hitch can be loaded from the one or the other free end - but then, as the "same" hitch can also be loaded by both ( as a Cow hitch ), there are six...

You seem to leave the matter pending in the thread of the Modified Bull hitch, not showing what is the standing part in the photos that you have attached...(On second thought the question for me remains pending even as far as the non-modified Bull hitch ...)

For what it is worth, my photo in Reply #6 shows which end I think is the standing one for the stronger of the two options.

I think altering which is the standing end alters the dynamics of this knot. It is no longer the same knot, and in a slippery material like Dyneema the differences may be more obvious.

Xarax, if you are laying claim to both, I would name each one differently :).
Title: Re: Error in Grog Animated Knots animation?
Post by: xarax on June 18, 2014, 04:48:50 AM
I think altering which is the standing end alters the dynamics of this knot. It is no longer the same knot...

In theory, you are right - but here we are talking about practical knots !  :) In my ropes / poles, I  have not been able to pinpoint any visible differences, even after really hard loading.

and in a slippery material like Dyneema the differences may be more obvious.

  Perhaps - or they may be smoothed out even more !  :-\  :-\  :-\
  Tie and try them !
Title: Re: Error in Grog Animated Knots animation?
Post by: Seaworthy on June 18, 2014, 05:02:09 AM
I think altering which is the standing end alters the dynamics of this knot. It is no longer the same knot...

In theory, you are right - but here we are talking about practical knots !  :) In my ropes / poles, I  have not been able to pinpoint any visible differences, even after really hard loading.

and in a slippery material like Dyneema the differences may be more obvious.

  Perhaps - or they may be smoothed out even more !  :-\  :-\  :-\
  Tie and try them !

Will do. I have no load testing gear on board, but I have bollards and I have unsheathed Dyneema and I have big winches :).

It will be an interesting exercise. I think the EStar will slip easily. I think the Bull Clove won't.
Title: Re: Error in Grog Animated Knots animation?
Post by: xarax on June 18, 2014, 05:09:34 AM
I think the EStar will slip easily. I think the Bull Clove won't.

   That is almost sure - but I was not talking about those "two knots" in my previous posts ! I was talking about the Bull Clove hitch, loaded the one or the other way / free end. However, we should also be sure first about what, exactly, EStar hitch s creator himself had in mind, which was the knot he thinks it is the one that should bear this name, before we jump into those conclusions.
Title: Re: Error in Grog Animated Knots animation?
Post by: Seaworthy on June 18, 2014, 05:12:48 AM
Xarax, I am a novice here, but with a very keen interest in knots.  I love tying them and I am intrigued by what makes them work (enjoy looking at the components). I have no knot tying books on board and up until yesterday no copy of Ashleys. All my new knot knowledge in the last 7 years has just come from the internet.

I live on board a yacht. I do use knots for a practical reason daily. So practical differences are what are important in my day to day life, not the theoretical ones.

I have been thinking about all this and I have a few questions.

I arrived at your knot just by tying what Evans described. This is NOT, however how he tied it in his pdf, nor how it is presented in Grogs.

That is why I thought Grogs was wrong - it did not match his description. In fact, Evans tied it 'wrongly' I think.

I could see instantly when I first saw the knot in Grogs that if the knot was tied around a bollard (a big diameter pole) it was likely to be much weaker than the another way (what I now find is your Bull Clove hitch - in Cruisers Forum I laughingly called it the SWL-EStar).

What happens in this situation with laying claim to the knot? Evans has described your knot, but he has tied something different. The method of arriving at a knot I think is irrelevant if the final result is the same knot. This is not the case here though. The Bull Clove is definitely not the same knot as the EStar.
Title: Re: Error in Grog Animated Knots animation?
Post by: Seaworthy on June 18, 2014, 05:17:13 AM
I think the EStar will slip easily. I think the Bull Clove won't.

   That is almost sure - but I was not talking about those "two knots" in my previous posts ! I was talking about the Bull Clove hitch, loaded the one or the other way / free end. However, we should also be sure first about what, exactly, EStar hitch s creator himself had in mind, which was the knot he thinks it is the one that should bear this name, before we jump into those conclusions.

Yes, I realise you were saying that :). See my comment below. By 'two options' I mean the two options of what to make the tail in the Bull Clove Hitch:

For what it is worth, my photo in Reply #6 shows which end I think is the standing one for the stronger of the two options.

I think altering which is the standing end alters the dynamics of this knot. It is no longer the same knot, and in a slippery material like Dyneema the differences may be more obvious.

Xarax, if you are laying claim to both, I would name each one differently :).

Title: Re: Error in Grog Animated Knots animation?
Post by: Seaworthy on June 18, 2014, 05:20:15 AM
.....However, we should also be sure first about what, exactly, EStar hitch s creator himself had in mind, which was the knot he thinks it is the one that should bear this name, before we jump into those conclusions.

Xarax, I think Evans described the same knot as the Bull Clove when he was describing the EStar, but this is certainly NOT what he tied. He tied something weaker.

What happens in this situation? Surely his images of how to tie it rules, not how he describes it?
Title: Re: Error in Grog Animated Knots animation?
Post by: Seaworthy on June 18, 2014, 05:25:47 AM
I think the EStar will slip easily. I think the Bull Clove won't.

   That is almost sure - but I was not talking about those "two knots" in my previous posts ! I was talking about the Bull Clove hitch, loaded the one or the other way / free end. However, we should also be sure first about what, exactly, EStar hitch s creator himself had in mind, which was the knot he thinks it is the one that should bear this name, before we jump into those conclusions.

I will try out the two versions on the Bull Clove also (ie selecting which end I make the tail), but I doubt I will be able to see much difference with my very crude testing methods (I can only tell by feel how much load I am applying).

I think there will be a big difference between the EStar and Bull Clove though, hence my persistence with all of this. This makes a real world difference to sailors trying to tie a hitch in Dyneema on bigger diameter objects.
Title: Re: Error in Grog Animated Knots animation?
Post by: xarax on June 18, 2014, 05:50:45 AM
I live on board of a yacht.

Lucky !  :)

   What happens in this situation with laying claim to the knot ?

  We should NOT "lay claim" on any knot !

  Let me "explain" it, with the help of a saying that I had imagined right now  :).
  Man is not the measure of any-thing. Because, if the thing is a small and insignificant one, he is always greater than it. And if the thing is a great and significant one, he is always smaller than it.
   ( I almost listen the noise of Protagoras bones, as he turns in his grave !   :) 

 
   Evans has described your knot, but he has tied something different.
   The Bull Clove is definitely not the same knot as the EStar.

  There is NO "my" knot - and, for that matter, there is no "anybody s knot" ! Knots are there, in the KnotLand, and who is going to discover/meet them there "first", is only a matter of pure luck... One should not even think of having any property claims on luck !  :)
   I simply prefer to call the "new" knots it had happened to me to meet, with descriptive names, so the present or future knot-tyer would have an added aid, when he is memorizing them. The knot I had shown is just a variation of the well-known Bull hitch, where the double nipping loop-based nipping "neck"/"tube" has been replaced by a Clove hitch, period. So, the name Bull Clove hitch, is what the knot itself demands, not what me or anybody else wishes...
    We should simply ASK the discoverer of the EStar hitch, which knot he did tie, and if he was/is aware or interested in the differences. However, in this very simple knot, which is such a simple implementation of the almost jamming ability of the primordial Clove hitch, I, for one, would find very difficult to use a "copy-righted" name !  :) Bull Clove hitch, or something like this, sounds OK to me.
Title: Re: Error in Grog Animated Knots animation?
Post by: xarax on June 18, 2014, 05:55:00 AM
This makes a real world difference to sailors trying to tie a hitch in Dyneema on bigger diameter objects.

   You should better ask Evans about that... He knows an infinitely larger number of things on knots tied on Dyneema, than me- who had been able only to see them, in f... pictures !  :) 
Title: Re: Error in Grog Animated Knots animation?
Post by: Seaworthy on June 18, 2014, 06:00:39 AM
I live on board of a yacht.

Lucky !  :)

   What happens in this situation with laying claim to the knot ?

  We should NOT "lay claim" on any knot !

  Let me "explain" it, with the help od a saying that I had imagined right now  :).
  Man is not the measure of any-thing. Because, if the thing is a small and insignificant one, he is always greater than it. And if the thing is a great and significant one, he is always smaller than it.
   ( I almost listen the noise of Protagoras bones, as he turns in his grave !   :) 

 
   Evans has described your knot, but he has tied something different.
   The Bull Clove is definitely not the same knot as the EStar.

  There is NO "my" knot - and, for that matter, there is no "anybody s knot" ! Knots are there, in the KnotLand, and who is going to discover/meet them there "first", is only a matter of pure luck... One should not even think of having any property claims on luck !  :)
   I simply prefer to call the "new" knots it had happened to me to meet, with descriptive names, so the present or future knot-tyer would have an added aid, when he is memorizing them. The knot I had shown is just a variation of the well-knpwn Bull hitch, where the double nipping loop-based nipping "neck"/"tube" has been replaced by a Clove hitch, period. So, the name Bull Clove hitch, is what the knot itself demands, not what me or anybody else wishes...
    We should simply ASK the discoverer of the EStar hitch, which knot he did tie, and if he was/is aware or interested in the differences. However, in this very simple knot, which is such a simple implementation of the almost jamming ability of the primordial Clove hitch, I, for one, would find very difficult to use a "copy-righted" name !  :) Bull Clove hitch, or something like this, sounds OK to me.

Badly worded on my part LOL.
Who gets the honour of going down in history as being the inventor of the knot then?
That is my question :).

The EStar and Bull Clove are two quite different hitches. You can't call them by the same name.

Evans has obviously invented the EStar Hitch as he shows images of it.
Who invented the other hitch, the Bull Clove?
Title: Re: Error in Grog Animated Knots animation?
Post by: xarax on June 18, 2014, 06:16:02 AM
Who gets the honour of going down in history as being the inventor of the knot then?

  As I had pointed out in my previous post, and I had repeated a number of times in this Forum, I think that the simple knots are "discovered', not "invented" - as Platonic this might sound !  :) Given the laws of the Universe we know, the possible simplest knots are determined right from the first billionth of billionth of a second ... A more complex knot, like the decorative knots, may well be created somewhere, but it would most probably not - as any work of art may have been created somewhere in the Universe already, but, even if this had happened, it would had been a very rare event, a miraculous event, indeed.
   Now, if you believe in eternal after life, you are not interested in history, of course ! And if you do not believe in eternal after life, or in any after life at all, why on Earth or Heavens are you interested in what would happen after the atoms composing your ex-body would had been spread in a cold, almost empty expanding Universe ?  :)

Who invented the other hitch, the Bull Clove?

God knows !  :)
   
Title: Re: Error in Grog Animated Knots animation?
Post by: Seaworthy on June 18, 2014, 07:15:40 AM
Who gets the honour of going down in history as being the inventor of the knot then?

  As I had pointed out in my previous post, and I had repeated a number of times in this Forum, I think that the simple knots are "discovered', not "invented" - as Platonic this might sound !  :) Given the laws of the Universe we know, the possible simplest knots are determined right from the first billionth of billionth of a second ... A more complex knot, like the decorative knots, may well be created somewhere, but it would most probably not - as any work of art may have been created somewhere in the Universe already, but, even if this had happened, it would had been a very rare event, a miraculous event, indeed.
   Now, if you believe in eternal after life, you are not interested in history, of course ! And if you do not believe in eternal after life, or in any after life at all, why on Earth or Heavens are you interested in what would happen after the atoms composing your ex-body would had been spread in a cold, almost empty expanding Universe ?  :)

I like your attitude :).
My question was asked simply from curiosity. I totally agree it makes no difference in the big scheme of things.

Now to get back to the main issue.
What Evans calls an EStar is, I very strongly suspect, not the best version of this bend and the two versions need to be named differently. The two versions in fact end up looking quite different when tied.

I propose the second version is called the EStar-XX :).

Just like the left handed bowline is not the same as the bowline and would only be used if a novice had tied the bowline incorrectly, the EStar is not the same as an EStar-XX and the latter should be used in preference.

So, yes, Grog have animated the EStar Hitch correctly, but I think it is not the best alternative. These two bends need to be tested in unsheathed Dyneema on a "pole" of wide diameter, such as a bollard (ours on board is 10 cm, probably even thicker diameters such as 15+ cm that are found on some jetties, should be tested if 10 cm is inconclusive).

Title: Re: Error in Grog Animated Knots animation?
Post by: xarax on June 18, 2014, 07:46:02 AM
   I will repeat this for the last time : It is of no importance whatsoever what the "Animated Grog" site selects and presents as "EStar hitch" ! ( Although I doubt that the author of the hitch had not been involved in this selection/presentation ! )
   What matters is what the author had tied - and the knot he himself had shown that he had tied, on pictures published either in in his pdf file (1) or in his site (2), is obviously NOT the Bull Clove hitch ! What also matters is what he had in his mind - because he might well had posted the wrong pictures ( it happens ! ). On this problem, I can imagine only one solution : ask him !  :)
 
   1. http://www.bethandevans.com/pdf/estar.pdf
   2. http://www.bethandevans.com/load.htm
Title: Re: Error in Grog Animated Knots animation?
Post by: Seaworthy on June 18, 2014, 08:30:05 AM
   I will repeat this for the last time : It is of no importance whatsoever what the "Animated Grog" site selects and presents as "EStar hitch" ! ( Although I doubt that the author of the hitch had not been involved in this selection/presentation ! )

Actually, it matters tremendously. Grogs is what the majority of boating people are now probably using when learning how to tie knots. The site is repeatedly recommended on forums. Many people now use tablets and the Grog app is also recommended. Frighteningly rapidly, books are being used less and less. I started with maybe 200 on board and am now down to less than 20. The Kindle is King. The internet is becoming the source of learning and Grogs is at the moment the gold standard for internet sites on how to tie boating knots. Dyneema is a tricky line to work with and currently the EStar hitch is the best hitch available to sailors. If the EStar-XX is better, this should be made known.

Since viewing the pdf, I see that Grogs has presented the knot just how Evans tied it in his pdf. I may be wrong, but I think there is a better version, the one I have called the EStar-XX. It would benefit sailors if this was load tested on common bollards eg 10 cm such as ours, and Grog modified if necessary.

What matters is what the author had tied - and the knot he himself had shown that he had tied, on pictures published either in in his pdf file (1) or in his site (2), is obviously NOT the Bull Clove hitch ! What also matters is what he had in his mind - because he might well had posted the wrong pictures ( it happens ! ). On this problem, I can imagine only one solution : ask him !  :)
 
   1. http://www.bethandevans.com/pdf/estar.pdf
   2. http://www.bethandevans.com/load.htm

I have asked the question. I sent him a personal message on the cruising forum site he is a member of with a link to the thread I started about the EStar. Despite the fact that he has logged in several times since I sent my PM, I have had no reply and he has not responded on the thread.

How long is it since you posed your questions to him that you have received no reply to?
Title: Re: Error in Grog Animated Knots animation?
Post by: xarax on June 18, 2014, 09:32:53 AM
   Grogs is what the majority of boating people are now probably using when learning how to tie knots.

   I hope they use the tools that were offered to them for free, without any strings attached ( commercials, for instance ) : their own mind and their own fingers !  :)
   I do not know how the Bull Clove hitch will work when tied on Dyneema.  My interest was fuelled by the examination of a number of other such two-wrap tight hitches ( some of them TIB, too ), which were presented in this Forum (1)(2)(3)(*). While I was searching for a well-balanced, tight adjustable loop, I had noticed that the Clove hitch was an almost jammingly tight nipping structure (4) - and so I had tried it as a "lock" of the Cow hitch, in place of the double nipping loop used in the ordinary / common Bull hitch. For some other, inferior ways to improve the Bull hitch, see (5).

1. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4739.msg30643#msg30643
2. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4739.msg30666#msg30666
3. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4739.msg32209#msg32209
4. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4347   
5. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=2166

 (  I do not know if Evans had ever read the PM I had send to him - he is a busy man, he seems to enjoy his wonderful life-style and his many interests ( among them, his many tests of ropes and knots ) so much, I did nt wish to bother him too much. )

P.S. Notice that NONE of them is in the "Grog" site... although they are the best we have ! So much for the quality of your beloved source of knotting wisdom !  :)
Title: Re: Error in Grog Animated Knots animation?
Post by: Seaworthy on June 18, 2014, 10:11:21 AM
   Grogs is what the majority of boating people are now probably using when learning how to tie knots.

   I hope they use the tools that were offered to them for free, without any strings attached ( commercials, for instance ) : their own mind and their own fingers !  :)

The website is free and is all that I use. My mind just tunes out of any ads on websites. Can't say I could tell you what one single one of them was for on Grogs, apart from their app LOL.

The app is not free, but inexpensive.

   I do not know how the Bull Clove hitch will work when tied on Dyneema.  My interest was fuelled by the examination of a number of other such tight hitches ( some of them TIB, too ), which were presented in this Forum (1)(2)(3). While I was searching for a well-balanced, tight adjustable loop, I had noticed that the Clove hitch was an almost jammingly tight nipping structure (4) - and so I had tried it as a "lock" of the Cow hitch, in place of the double nipping loop used in the ordinary / common Bull hitch. For some other, inferior ways to improve the Bull hitch, see (5).

1. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4739.msg30643#msg30643
2. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4739.msg30666#msg30666
3. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4739.msg32209#msg32209
4. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4347   
5. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=2166

 (  I do not know if Evans had ever read the PM I had send to him - he is a busy man, he seems to enjoy his wonderful life-style and his many interests ( among them, his many tests of ropes and knots ) so much, I did nt wish to bother him too much. )

Understanding all this better now, when I look at your Bull Clove hitch, I see that it has no tail. You have made this a hitch that is based on the Cow hitch. The Cow hitch has no tail. There are two hitches with a tail that can result from the Bull Clove hitch.

The hitch I presented in reply #6 of this thread has a tail and the hitch must be tied in this manner (or can be reversed in a mirror image way). It is a different hitch to using the other tail in your knots. The tail CANNOT be reversed. It is the hitch Evans described, but did not actually tie. I have named this new hitch the EStar-XX.

I too, have no idea yet if it will perform better, but I hope my tests at the bow on our 10 cm bollard using unsheathed Dyneema may reveal some info. Otherwise, load testing under similar conditions certainly will. These tests will be necessary regardless, as my method is very crude.

Is any member here able to perform these load tests for me using Dyneema on a large diameter 'pole' (eg 10-15 cm)? I have no access to load testing equipment.

Maybe Evans will be able to do this, but I do not really want to approach him a second time regarding this issue.

This issue is of great relevance to current sailors, as Dyneema is being used more on board boats, particularly racing yachts, but even on cruising ones like ours.
Title: Re: Error in Grog Animated Knots animation?
Post by: Seaworthy on June 18, 2014, 10:14:17 AM
In summary, this is the EStar-XX hitch from the front:
Title: Re: Error in Grog Animated Knots animation?
Post by: Seaworthy on June 18, 2014, 10:17:20 AM
This is the EStar-XX hitch from the back.

It can be reversed in a mirror image way around the vertical axis.
Title: Re: Error in Grog Animated Knots animation?
Post by: Seaworthy on June 18, 2014, 01:20:07 PM
P.S. Notice that NONE of them is in the "Grog" site... although they are the best we have ! So much for the quality of your beloved source of knotting wisdom !  :)

Xarax, I note you added a PS after I quoted your post and I am responding now.

What is critical when it comes to knots for sailors, is what is happening out there on the water and what information is filtering through to those using knots when sailing. There may be some wonderful knots in the threads you linked (when my internet is better I will really enjoy reading them, at the moment pages are taking ages to load and I am concentrating just on vital stuff when online).

If anyone on the forum thinks they know of new knots that may be useful for sailors, I plead with you to get them out there and visible, not just in threads here or registered somewhere.

Grog is not my "beloved source of knotting wisdom". I am just reporting here that like it or not, Grog is currently the main online source for knots for sailors, new and old.  It is easy to access, easy to search and the animations make it very easy to learn to tie the knots. They are also presented reversed. There is a nice concise explanation with each knot. It is understandably a popular site. It is what is in current use out in the real world. Books are used little now and will be used even less in the future.

If members here have discovered new knots suitable for sailing, get some load tests done, checking a wide variety of line diameters and line types (the same knot will not necessarily be the best for all line diameter or line type). If they are bends then test a variety of different diameters for the two lines (ie do the knots only work for certain combinations).  I think the most common lines currently used sailing are double braided polyester, lines with a high tech inner core like spectra with a normal cover, nylon, and more recently unsheathed Dyneema (popular now for soft shackles). Line manufacturers would probably provide line at no charge if you contacted them. They are keen for good knots to be found that are suitable for their products.

Test it, document it, report it to Grog or form a new website of your own that is as easy to use as Grogs and get that knowledge out there. If anyone would enjoy doing this I am happy to liaise between you and the sailing community.

Who else but passionate knot tying members here will be doing this? It would be a fabulous community service, not just an intellectual exercise.

PS I think that this will mean little to you, but I named the EStar-XX hitch in honour of Starzinger and Xarax. I think back in January both of you were just a breath away from discovering this new hitch that may, in time, turn out to be widely used by sailors.

I have presented this knot to Cruisers Forum. I hope someone there is able to do load tests using Dyneema and making the pole bollard diameter (eg 10-15 cm). This is where I think the EStar-XX hitch will perform better than the EStar. It may still not be a great hitch for this purpose, but if it is not, maybe some of you here can come up with different suggestions.

It would be very useful to know how much larger the bollard can be compared to the line diameter before the strength of the EStar-XX hitch becomes very poor (50% strength is deemed acceptable at the moment, as it is the best we have, I would think under 30% of line strength is getting completely unacceptable). Why such a low % may be acceptable is that the line is not just used for its strength, but for its weight.
Title: Re: Error in Grog Animated Knots animation?
Post by: xarax on June 18, 2014, 02:09:45 PM
My mind just tunes out of any ads on websites.

  That is what you believe/hope it happens  !  :) The art and science of advertising ( or brain washing ), is thousands of years old - do not underestimate those guys ! If you let them walk freely in your mind s backyard, they will make you believe any-thing ( existing or non-existing thing :) )

  The tail CANNOT be reversed.

  In what I had shown ( and had dared to call according to what it is, i.e., just a tight Bull hitch using a Clove hitch as a "locking" "neck" ), the Standing and the Tail ends can be "reversed" - although the difference, when the hitch is tied on "ordinary" material and around a thick enough pole, is not noticeable ( and that is why I had chosen to show pictures of this hitch, where its "almost" symmetrical nature is clearly manifested ).
   Now, we can, indeed, anticipate that the "security" ( regarding the slippage of the Standing and/or Tail end ) will vary, if/when the relative diameters of the rope and the pole will vary. How much, I have no idea... It would be great to persuade somebody to test those things, but I have never been able to advertise successfully the need for any test, on any knot ... :) It seems that, regarding buying or selling ads, I am totally worthless . :)   
Title: Re: Error in Grog Animated Knots animation?
Post by: Seaworthy on June 18, 2014, 02:44:44 PM
My mind just tunes out of any ads on websites.

  That is what you believe/hope it happens  !  :) The art and science of advertising ( or brain washing ), is thousands of years old - do not underestimate those guys ! If you let them walk freely in your mind s backyard, they will make you believe any-thing ( existing or non-existing thing :) )

  The tail CANNOT be reversed.

  In what I had shown ( and had dared to call according to what it is, i.e., just a tight Bull hitch using a Clove hitch as a "locking" "neck" ), the Standing and the Tail ends can be "reversed" - although the difference, when the hitch is tied on "ordinary" material and around a thick enough pole, is not noticeable ( and that is why I had chosen to show pictures of this hitch, where its "almost" symmetrical nature is clearly manifested ).
   Now, we can, indeed, anticipate that the "security" ( regarding the slippage of the Standing and/or Tail end ) will vary, if/when the relative diameters of the rope and the pole will vary. How much, I have no idea... It would be great to persuade somebody to test those things, but I have never been able to advertise successfully the need for any test, on any knot ... :) It seems that, regarding buying or selling ads, I am totally worthless . :)   

Well of course the tail can be reversed, but what you end up with then is a different hitch. Name it whatever you like, but it is not the Bull-clove and it is NOT the EStar-XX. To form the latter the tail can only be the one I have selected. The security difference between the EStar-XX and whatever you want to call the other one may be small, but I think in Dyneema with a large diameter pole it will be obvious.

My gut instinct is that the EStar-XX will be the stronger of the two options for the above conditions. My gut reactions has served me well so far when it comes to knots LOL :). Only load testing will tell. There is a possibility of course the other currently unnamed one will be better.

I have no idea by the way what it takes to get a knot on Grog. Do you have to pay?? I would think any knot adequately tested that is shown to be a better or significantly easier knot than they currently list would make it onto their site.

If Evans ever replies to me I will ask what he had to do to get his knot accepted and I will pass on the information here.

Regarding stress testing equipment, there must be some of you that live near each other. Or does the guild have headquarters? Cannot the guild purchase a load tester? Or can't a few of you get together and buy one? Evans obviously has one. I doubt he is testing knots commercially. I think he is doing it to benefit sailors and spread the knowledge.

So, to put in a plea again to all you keen knot tyers. Can some of you step down from those lofty ivory towers and do something practical with your talents and help the community?

My thread on the double sheet bend is a classic example. I do not believe the best DSB is currently being learnt by sailors. They are scared to rock the boat and try anything different. What is being taught "must of course be right". No one here is interested. As one member here commented on my other thread "if it ain't broke why try and fix it". Very strange attitudes LOL.

If a load tester is a available to any of you, don't just look at inventing new knots. Go test all the favourites out that sailors use. There are no more than about a dozen common ones. What is best in what diameter and what materials? Is there a better alternative we should be using.

Some of our criteria are:
- Secure
- Easy to tie (even better if it can be done one handed, but at least something that could be tied by feel in the dark)
- Can be undone preferably

Then start testing salty line that has been in use. It will not necessarily perform the same way brand new line does.

As I said earlier what works for what types of materials and what diameters?

There is unbelievably so much currently not known regarding the best knots for sailing. I bet so many improvements are possible, particularly as all the lines used now are not what would have been used a century or more ago when the current knots were discovered.
"If it ain't broke, don't fix it" is a weird approach.

Title: Re: Error in Grog Animated Knots animation?
Post by: roo on June 18, 2014, 03:13:02 PM
Go test all the favourites out that sailors use. There are no more than about a dozen common ones. What is best in what diameter and what materials? Is there a better alternative we should be using.

Some of our criteria are:
- Secure
- Easy to tie (even better if it can be done one handed, but at least something that could be tied by feel in the dark)
- Can be undone preferably

Then start testing salty line that has been in use. It will not necessarily perform the same way brand new line does.

As I said earlier what works for what types of materials and what diameters?

There is unbelievably so much currently not known regarding the best knots for sailing. I bet so many improvements are possible, particularly as all the lines used now are not what would have been used a century or more ago when the current knots were discovered.

http://notableknotindex.webs.com/knotindex.html

Enjoy.
Title: Re: Error in Grog Animated Knots animation?
Post by: Seaworthy on June 18, 2014, 03:42:09 PM

Enjoy.

Hi Roo
Nice to see a fellow Aussie here :).

What do you consider the most secure bend for lines of different diameter if a) the knot needs to be untied and b)it is OK if the knot has to be cut off? Does what you select work equally well for all diameters? Does this work in both double braid and nylon (doubt it would work in unsheathed Dyneema)? Can nylon and double braid be combined?

These are the types of things sailors need to know.

I will look at your knot list more closely later. The trigger bend I am totally unfamiliar with. I am all consumed with the EStar-XX hitch at the moment and I am keen to go test it at the bow on our bollard using Dyneema tomorrow. It was too hot today.

By the way, I just love using a Yosemite finish on a bowline.
It would be great to know if the water bowline is better or worse and for what types of lines and diameters. Do you know which is the better of the two? Why did you select the water bowline and not an ordinary bowline with a Yosemite finish?

Sorry,  if I come across as sounding so insistent about this practical importance of these issues to sailors, but they truly are important to us :).


Title: Re: Error in Grog Animated Knots animation?
Post by: roo on June 18, 2014, 04:28:27 PM
http://notableknotindex.webs.com/knotindex.html

Enjoy.

Hi Roo
Nice to see a fellow Aussie here :).
It's just an Aussie-sounding nickname.  I reside in the US.  I'll have to get to your queries another time as other duties call.  It may warrant the start of a new thread to keep things on track.  You might state your application that requires dyneema.
Title: Re: Error in Grog Animated Knots animation?
Post by: Seaworthy on June 18, 2014, 05:10:30 PM
It's just an Aussie-sounding nickname.  I reside in the US.  I'll have to get to your queries another time as other duties call.  It may warrant the start of a new thread to keep things on track.  You might state your application that requires dyneema.

With its strength and low weight Dyneema is being used more and more on board yachts, particularly racing boats. It would be used dramatically more if we knew how to secure knots in this material.

One use for example would be the initial portion of a snubber line (ie between the bow and the nylon). A splice is no good in this application as the snubber is often under considerable tension and you want to be able to throw this off in a hurry. How do you attach the Dyneema securely to the cleat or bollard at the bow so that it can still be thrown off? The forces on the snubber and chain can be considerable. If Dyneema is used as the initial bit of the snubber it needs to hold well - we want to know the best possible way of securing it.

We need the best loop, hitch and bend, preferably one that can be tied quickly in the dark, and preferably undone (although the best one if it does not have to be undone would be great too). We generally rely on muscle memory for tying knots, so they can't be complicated. We apparently have a secure stopper at the moment, but I find it is relatively slow to tie.

There are fabulous new materials out there that we just can't utilise well as we don't know how to secure them.

Lots of boats now use soft shackles, even cruising yachts (why I have a fair bit of new Dyneema on board at the moment). Under load these soft shackles amazingly break at the stopper knot, not at the peak of the bit that goes over it. A Diamond Head is currently used as the best stopper knot (it meeds to be bulky so the loop of the shackle will never slide over the top. What would be a better knot to use at the end of these?

All that aside, just the best knots in all the common line use eg double braided polyester and sheathed spectra etc would be great. All the old traditional knots were designed for natural fibres that did not slip easily. They are not necessarily the best knots to tie now.

For example I am challenging what is the best double sheet bend to use just in plain common double braided polyester of different diameters. No one seems at all concerned that the version currently taught is not the more secure of the two versions (one version is just a snugged version of the other and very oddly the un-snugged version is taught).

We need so much more information and not of the variety "how about this, give it a go". No one wants to be using knots they are uncertain about.

I could go on and on...... :D
Title: Re: Error in Grog Animated Knots animation?
Post by: xarax on June 18, 2014, 09:44:27 PM
The security difference ... may be small, but I think in Dyneema with a large diameter pole it will be obvious.

  Let me restate that the Bull Clove hitch I had tied and tried was meant to be a "tight hitch" ( which means, to be a hitch and/or a binder as well ) if/when tied on "ordinary" material. I have no idea how it will behave if/when tied on Dyneema - and I do not even can tell if it will hold at all !
   My gut instinct tells me to avoid predictions of how those very slippery materials work - I would had never anticipated that the triple fisherman s knot can slip, but it turned out that it does ! However, regarding security, I think that if the #1 Bull Clove hitch, or whatever you wish to call it, will or will not hold, the #2 Bull hitch will or will not hold, too. What percentage of the MBS will they hold, that I can not even imagine.. Now, regarding strength, I think that the differences will be even less, if any. Strength is a black box to me, into which I was never able to enter - not that I had any particular interest to do this !

 
 
 Can't a few of you get together and buy one ?
 Can some of you step down from those lofty ivory towers and do something practical ...and help the community ?

  I guess that we should first be able to talk to each other politely and respectfully, which, when it comes to knot-tyers, to my knowledge, is a very difficult thing !  :) 

   There is unbelievably so much currently not known regarding the best knots for sailing. I bet so many improvements are possible...

   The exactly same thing can be said for ALL the "best" knots, used in ALL fields, rescue  and climbing included ! But we should not be discouraged by this : It was always like that !  :)   
Title: Re: Error in Grog Animated Knots animation?
Post by: Wed on June 18, 2014, 10:56:41 PM
I have no idea by the way what it takes to get a knot on Grog. Do you have to pay?? I would think any knot adequately tested that is shown to be a better or significantly easier knot than they currently list would make it onto their site.
Basically, you contact them and ask. Nicely. The Grogono family has a contact page.

Quote
Regarding stress testing equipment, there must be some of you that live near each other. Or does the guild have headquarters? Cannot the guild purchase a load tester? Or can't a few of you get together and buy one? Evans obviously has one. I doubt he is testing knots commercially. I think he is doing it to benefit sailors and spread the knowledge.
Is there such a testing tool to be purchased? As knots are rather varied, chances are better that you rig something that tests the parameters you seek on a per knot basis.

Quote
So, to put in a plea again to all you keen knot tyers. Can some of you step down from those lofty ivory towers and do something practical with your talents and help the community?
One thing to remember here is that the IGKT is not an official body or an academy. There are no certificates handed out for levels of skill. The membership allows you to use the logotype. The IGKT is a bunch of people interested in knots.

Quote
There is unbelievably so much currently not known regarding the best knots for sailing. I bet so many improvements are possible, particularly as all the lines used now are not what would have been used a century or more ago when the current knots were discovered.
"If it ain't broke, don't fix it" is a weird approach.
Feel free to hop to it. Nobody is paid to do that sort of work. And few are dedicated full time to knots.
Title: Re: Error in Grog Animated Knots animation?
Post by: Dan_Lehman on June 18, 2014, 11:31:14 PM
What do you consider the most secure bend for lines of different diameter if
a) the knot needs to be untied and
b)it is OK if the knot has to be cut off?
Does what you select work equally well for all diameters?
Does this work in both double braid and nylon
(doubt it would work in unsheathed Dyneema)?
Can nylon and double braid be combined?
You're confusing things.  "dbl. braid" is construction,
"nylon" is fibre --which might come in dbl.braid.

"doubt it would work in (bare) Dyneema" : indeed,
there is a thread or two on this site of recent vintage
with EStar contributing the most amazing results of
things that didn't work --absolutely incredible!!!
(E.g., #1452 with the SParts turning 360 vs 180
degrees and so collaring each other, and then the
tails tucked twice !!!  -THAT slipped, eventually!
(You might search for "bowled over", which is how
I described it.)

Possibly, EStar has been working with the worst of
HMPE material (type & thinness !?), as his results
are more severe than some others.  (OTOH, others
are not reporting quite so clearly as is he.)

Quote
By the way, I just love using a Yosemite finish on a bowline.
It would be great to know if the water bowline is better or worse
and for what types of lines and diameters.  Do you know which is the
better of the two?  Why did you select the water bowline and not
an ordinary bowline with a Yosemite finish?
Because the SPart does more turning in the one
case, and this is the part one is concerned about
coming loose; it is also the part that can just roll
and flow rope out from the eye into the SPart in
HMPE line.

BTW, beware the maybe false distinction between
sheathed and bare HMPE : in some cases, it is the
slippage of the HMPE core that, despite appearances
of a knot holding --because it's only holding the sheath
of more frictive fibre--, weakens the knot, eventually
--one just can't see it!  (OTOH, I have read of anglers
just putting simple sheaths on their "gel-spun" HMPE
lines and reaping benefits of strength !?)


--dl*
====
Title: Re: Error in Grog Animated Knots animation?
Post by: Seaworthy on June 19, 2014, 02:18:35 PM
I have no idea by the way what it takes to get a knot on Grog. Do you have to pay?? I would think any knot adequately tested that is shown to be a better or significantly easier knot than they currently list would make it onto their site.
Basically, you contact them and ask. Nicely. The Grogono family has a contact page.

Well, why aren't members doing this? There is no need to be scornful of this site. It is what the general public are accessing nowadays as a primary resource if they want to tie knots. Don't be restricted by not wanting to contribute to a commercial site. The reality nowadays is that no one is going to set up and manage a website like this just as a community service.

Regarding stress testing equipment, there must be some of you that live near each other. Or does the guild have headquarters? Cannot the guild purchase a load tester? Or can't a few of you get together and buy one? Evans obviously has one. I doubt he is testing knots commercially. I think he is doing it to benefit sailors and spread the knowledge.
Is there such a testing tool to be purchased? As knots are rather varied, chances are better that you rig something that tests the parameters you seek on a per knot basis.

I have never seen load testing equipment, but all you need is a load cell, something to attach the loop through if testing bends or to be wrapped around if testing hitches and some means of tightening (eg a winch secured down). Just keep increasing the tension until the line slips or knot breaks and the load cell will record the max force exerted. It is not very complicated, just unfortunately something I cannot do while on the water (seven years full away from land now).

Evans set his up. I will look up and see if he described it on the Cruisers Forum.

There is unbelievably so much currently not known regarding the best knots for sailing. I bet so many improvements are possible, particularly as all the lines used now are not what would have been used a century or more ago when the current knots were discovered.
"If it ain't broke, don't fix it" is a weird approach.
Feel free to hop to it. Nobody is paid to do that sort of work. And few are dedicated full time to knots.

I didn't mean to step on any toes. I would have thought anyone with a passion for knots would love the challenge of doing this and it would not be classed as "work". If I were land based I would happily potter away hours on this. I have now read Evans' load test results pdf that a member provided the link to. Such interesting results, dispelling lots of myths. See Dan Lehman's comments on this - one was "absolutely incredible".

I can't believe no one here is interested in the strength of knots. Xarax said it was a 'black box' mystery. This is the 'practical' not the 'decorative' section of the forum isn't it? Why are knots used mainly if not for some kind of security? Speed of tying may be an issue, ability to untie may also be, whether or knot can be tied one handed is also important, but surely security is way up on top of the list?

Strength of a knot seems to be assessed here on how the knot looks. This is sometimes misleading, and often highly so.** I think load test results are vital when creating new practical knots. Discover new knots, test them out (repeated results, multiple materials, multiple diameters) and get the best ones into use. Strive for improvement. It is not just people engaging in recreational activities who would benefit, think of how much this may help rescue operations etc.

**One reason for this is that some newer materials (that may be stronger and lighter) have lower melting points. Burying a section of the knot too much can mean heat is not dissipated as the knot tightens rapidly under load and it will snap at this point.
So many other aspects as well. Yes, I too look at a knot and have a gut feeling of "that just looks right", but this can be very misleading.
Title: Re: Error in Grog Animated Knots animation?
Post by: Seaworthy on June 19, 2014, 03:06:07 PM
What do you consider the most secure bend for lines of different diameter if
a) the knot needs to be untied and
b)it is OK if the knot has to be cut off?
Does what you select work equally well for all diameters?
Does this work in both double braid and nylon
(doubt it would work in unsheathed Dyneema)?
Can nylon and double braid be combined?
You're confusing things.  "dbl. braid" is construction,
"nylon" is fibre --which might come in dbl.braid.

LOL. Sorry, I missed out a word in my haste. "Polyester" was supposed to be written after 'braid'. That is the standard line used for sheets on most recreational boats nowadays.

"doubt it would work in (bare) Dyneema"
: indeed,

My attempt at humour was lost :(
Will put a smiley in next time.

By the way, I just love using a Yosemite finish on a bowline.
It would be great to know if the water bowline is better or worse
and for what types of lines and diameters.  Do you know which is the
better of the two?  Why did you select the water bowline and not
an ordinary bowline with a Yosemite finish?
Because the SPart does more turning in the one
case, and this is the part one is concerned about
coming loose; it is also the part that can just roll
and flow rope out from the eye into the SPart in
HMPE line.

I think you are right regarding the twin turn in the standing part making it stronger than the tail being secured an additional time. But stronger by how much? Are we talking less than 5%? Or 10? Or 20? And how much does this vary between materials? Is it the same for nylon as double braided polyester? Is it the same when the line is wet?

The two knots require very different method of tightening and time taken. A water bowline is very fiddly to tighten up. A Yosemite is super quick. I really want to know if going to the trouble of tying a water bowline is worth the effort. I would do it for a 20% improvement, I would certainly not for 5%. Can anyone here answer that? Speed is often of the essence.
Title: Re: Error in Grog Animated Knots animation?
Post by: xarax on June 19, 2014, 05:35:06 PM
  Speed is often of the essence.

  I guess you mean the time required to tie and/or to untie a knot. Of course it is - among many other things !  :)

  It may be related to the "simplicity" of the knot, if, into this already very vague / ill-defined word, we include characteristics not only of the final form, but also of the tying procedure that leads to it. A complex, in form, knot, may be simple regarding tying ( and vice versa, although this happens rather rarely : the 2-stand Mathew Walker bend, for example, is very simple, in form, but it requires careful dressing, that is, it can not be tied as easily and quickly as less simple knots ).
  The problem is that, even if we suppose that anybody will agree to anybody else, about what is a "simple" and what is a "complex" form, when it comes to a particular tying procedure, we can be sure that the situation will be reversed ! A tying method which will appear rather simple and easy to some people, will look very complicated and hard to some others - because their ability to form mental pictures of objects, and their hand-eye coordination, varies a lot.
   "Speed" sounds like such an easy word, we all understand what it means immediately - but when we realize that "speed" is directly related to "time", about which know no-thing ( and, perhaps, we can not know any-thing... ), we go back to the square one. Should the time required to understand how a knot works, be included in the evaluation of the degree of the "simplicity" of it ? If we calculate the number of hours we spend on thinking, reading, writing and talking to each other about knots, we will conclude that, even if we had been tying the most complex and difficult to tie and untie knots all this time, we would nt had wasted so much time... So, if we take into account that the time we have to live is limited, any knot, however simple, easy and quick to tie, is infinitely more complex than two-three half hitches, and nothing else - whatever this "else" means.
   In the ocean of time, "Speed" should be taken with a bit of salt.
   The essence is not speed, it is time - and, regarding the kingdom of time  "Abandon hope, all ye who enter here ".   
Title: Re: Error in Grog Animated Knots animation?
Post by: roo on June 23, 2014, 01:24:29 AM
What do you consider the most secure bend for lines of different diameter if a) the knot needs to be untied and b)it is OK if the knot has to be cut off?
The Zeppelin Bend (http://notableknotindex.webs.com/zeppelinloop.html) (including a double version, etc.) has excellent security for a jam-resistant bend.  I guess it depends on how much rope you want to throw at the problem if you want the most secure bend.  If you're OK with jamming knots, the whole world of fishing knots opens up to you, but the double/triple/etc. fisherman's knot is commonly used in rope where untying doesn't matter, although it's amazing how often people change their mind about not wanting to untie their rope once they find that things are a tad too short or long.  ;D

Quote
Does what you select work equally well for all diameters? Does this work in both double braid and nylon (doubt it would work in unsheathed Dyneema)? Can nylon and double braid be combined?
You have to use some judgement on differences in diameter.  Once it becomes hard to draw things up neatly, you may have to think about switching over to hitching solutions (http://notableknotindex.webs.com/sailorhitches.html).  Material construction differences seldom poses a big challenge.  If you're intent on knotting some of the slicker Dyneema, you may have to resort to a quadruple fisherman's knot or the like. 

Quote
By the way, I just love using a Yosemite finish on a bowline.
It would be great to know if the water bowline is better or worse and for what types of lines and diameters. Do you know which is the better of the two? Why did you select the water bowline and not an ordinary bowline with a Yosemite finish?
The Water Bowline (http://notableknotindex.webs.com/waterbowline.html) is more secure and stable, which is why I feature it.  On the off chance you need something more, you might look at the Monsoon Bowline variant:

http://notableknotindex.webs.com/monsoonbowline.html

Title: Re: Error in Grog Animated Knots animation?
Post by: Seaworthy on June 23, 2014, 06:27:58 AM
Roo, thanks for all the info.

What do you consider the most secure bend for lines of different diameter if a) the knot needs to be untied and b)it is OK if the knot has to be cut off?
......If you're OK with jamming knots, the whole world of fishing knots opens up to you, but the double/triple/etc. fisherman's knot is commonly used in rope where untying doesn't matter, although it's amazing how often people change their mind about not wanting to untie their rope once they find that things are a tad too short or long.  ;D

I didn't think the fishermans could be used if line was significantly different in diameter, as part of the strength depends on the double/triple overhands butting up well against each other.

Does what you select work equally well for all diameters? Does this work in both double braid and nylon (doubt it would work in unsheathed Dyneema)? Can nylon and double braid be combined?
You have to use some judgement on differences in diameter. 

Judgement seems to be all we have at the moment, rather than solid information.

What do you personally use if you are pushed for time and need to use a simple bend to join double braided polyester and the diameter of the thinner line is, say, 1/4 or ⅓ or 1/2 or ⅔ or 3/4 of the thicker?

If you have more time and can tie a Zeppelin or double Z, what diameter differences is it effective for? Will it still work for 1/4 or ⅓ ?

These are the burning questions :).

On the off chance you need something more, you might look at the Monsoon Bowline variant:
http://notableknotindex.webs.com/monsoonbowline.html

Not familiar with this one. Will have a play with it. Thanks for the link (easier than trying to follow written instructions :) :)).