International Guild of Knot Tyers Forum

General => Practical Knots => Topic started by: Ruby on May 24, 2014, 12:50:23 AM

Title: trucker's hitch?
Post by: Ruby on May 24, 2014, 12:50:23 AM
someone says that many truck drivers use this knot for quick binding.
(http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=4911.0;attach=15047;image)

isn't it trucker's hitch?

I don't think it's safe.
Title: Re: trucker's hitch?
Post by: Ruby on May 24, 2014, 01:10:11 AM
(http://static.commercialmotor.com/big-lorry-blog/2010/07/11/Half_Hitch.jpg)
.

(http://homepage.ntlworld.com/peter.turland/dollyknot_files/dollint.gif)


gleipnir?



Quote from: bestbooties  link=http://www.trucknetuk.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=99860&p=1479496#p1478856

Be sure to hold the top loop in your fist while pulling to take up the slack so thje "Ear" or loop is kept upright.
If using a thin rope,two turns around the ,"Ear" will prevent it from failing.
Last edited by bestbooties on Thu May 16, 2013 11:00 am, edited 2 times in total.

Title: Re: trucker's hitch?
Post by: Ruby on May 24, 2014, 01:14:11 AM
(http://www.joshwash.com/truckersknotcolor.gif)

looks like pulling the slippery bight, how can it be safe?

Title: Re: trucker's hitch?
Post by: TMCD on May 24, 2014, 03:36:19 AM
I use the double shank version of this all the time and it works extremely well. The double shank version basically uses a clove hitch instead of the single HH shown in your pictures and is fifty times more secure and stronger.

The version you show is certainly not a good method of securing a load.
Title: Re: trucker's hitch?
Post by: Ruby on May 24, 2014, 03:55:18 AM
I use the double shank version of this all the time and it works extremely well. The double shank version basically uses a clove hitch instead of the single HH shown in your pictures and is fifty times more secure and stronger.

The version you show is certainly not a good method of securing a load.

so it's better than the Trucker's Hitch? (which seems to have a fixed loop, hard to untie after heavy load)

or it's just one of the many Trucker's Hitch variations?
Title: Re: trucker's hitch?
Post by: Sweeney on May 24, 2014, 10:00:28 AM
The trucker's hitch as described in the first posts in this thread is to me THE trucker's hitch or dolly. In the UK up to about 10-15 years ago with the advent of curtained trucks this was the only hitch I have ever seen on a flat bed, sheeted lorry - originally using manila but latterly split film polypropylene. I first came across it nearly 60 years ago when my uncle (a professional lorry driver at the time) took me and my cousin out for the day in his cab. Before we set off he roped and sheeted the load (timber IIRC) and showed us how to cinch it down tight. Although I had no interest in knots until about 20-odd years later I never forgot that. The last time I saw one was about 2 years ago (maybe less - old age is setting in!) and the modern lorry still used the old fashioned hitch albeit in artificial hemp.

In recent years with the advent of YouTube etc there have been many variations but back in the day you learned from someone older and the method was passed down (similar to sailors) - you didn't learn this sort of thing from books nor did you innovate much - you were paid to deliver loads not fiddle with rope! It's all too easy to assume that something is unsafe (http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4904.0 (http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4904.0) is a good case in point) because it looks unsafe or because tied in some thin stuff it can be loosened but sometimes hands on experience counts for a lot - if this hitch really was not safe it would have been replaced years ago.

That said modern thinner rope has different characteristics and health & safety has taken over the world so inevitably - especially given a forum such as this - people will try and improve on what has gone before. Quite right too but if your life or livelihood depends on it you go with what you know and trust and leave the new stuff for amateurs like me to play with.

Barry
Title: Re: trucker's hitch?
Post by: Ruby on May 24, 2014, 11:37:46 AM

The version you show is certainly not a good method of securing a load.


it really looks strange.

it's taken from a book : <SAS Survival Handbook: How to Survive in the WIld, in Any Climate, on Land Or at Sea>  by  John Wiseman
Title: Re: trucker's hitch?
Post by: Ruby on May 24, 2014, 11:43:34 AM
The trucker's hitch as described in the first posts in this thread is to me THE trucker's hitch or dolly. In the UK up to about 10-15 years ago....




thank you for your detailed reply.

and I'm the real amateur playing with knot for fun.
Title: Re: trucker's hitch?
Post by: xarax on May 24, 2014, 12:25:16 PM
if your life or livelihood depends on it you go with what you know and trust and leave the new stuff for amateurs

  And, doing this, you remain in the same cave in Africa you were born 50.000 years ago ... :)
  No, it is quite the contrary that happens ! People who really take their lives, and the lives of their children, in their own hands, have to go further than their parents... and so they have to THINK, and UNDERSTAND, and IMAGINE, and innovate, and use the same technique over and over again : try and error. "Amateurs", and spectators, have another role : they imitate, they repeat, and they follow - and, doing this, they survive, so they have plenty of time to tell each other myths like the one above !  :)
  We are the children of the people who survived, just because they had learned and they had trusted  the "new stuff", the vaccination, the steam engine, the penicillin - and we have the duty to understand, and tell to our children, what is the Sheepshank and what is the Trucker s hitch, and to know when to use the one or the other, or even a hybrid of them as the one shown in this thread.
Title: Re: trucker's hitch?
Post by: DerekSmith on May 30, 2014, 10:18:07 PM
Hi Ruby,

I would have to agree that this version

(http://www.joshwash.com/truckersknotcolor.gif)

Appears to be unsafe.

That nipping Half Hitch Component is not stabilised as it is in the Gleipnir, and so is open to capsizing and spilling the retained bight.

However, it is resistant to 'pulling out' because most of the load is fed to the nipping loop of the half hitch component with only a small proportion left to attempt to haul the bight out of the nip.
Title: Re: trucker's hitch?
Post by: DerekSmith on May 31, 2014, 04:08:33 PM
I use a version of the Truckers Hitch quite frequently to pre load trees or boughs for felling.  Forces can be high, especially if lateral haul is applied to the loaded line, but there is virtually none of the flogging that would be experienced over a long trucking trip.

The version I use starts by taking a loop and 'twirling' it six or seven times to make a twisted section.  Then pull slightly on both the loop and the WE together against the SP.  This causes the twisted section to collapse over itself into a VT component, gripping the load line.  Then pass a bight of the WE through the small VT loop.  Because I hate using rope as a pulley surface, I pop a thimble into this bight and snug it up to the small VT loop.  The WE then goes around the anchor point (generally a bina through a sling around another tree) and back through the thimble.  Haul on the WE to apply the load, then tie off the WE with a slipped half hitch just behind the thimble.

In high load situations I have had the slipped HH jam on me, but the rest of the knot always opens easily, and even if the VT was to slide, it could go no further than its own loop with the thimble bight through it, so zero chance of failure.
Title: Re: trucker's hitch?
Post by: xarax on May 31, 2014, 08:58:37 PM
   The version I use starts by taking a loop and 'twirling' it six or seven times to make a twisted section.  Then pull slightly on both the loop and the WE together against the SP.  This causes the twisted section to collapse over itself into a VT component, gripping the load line.  Then pass a bight of the WE through the small VT loop.  Because I hate using rope as a pulley surface, I pop a thimble into this bight and snug it up to the small VT loop.  The WE then goes around the anchor point (generally a bina through a sling around another tree) and back through the thimble.  Haul on the WE to apply the load, then tie off the WE with a slipped half hitch just behind the thimble.

   130 + words, instead of 1 ( = one ) picture, is beating even my best blah-blahs !  :) ( However, dan Lehman s performances in that sport are still beyond comparison...)
 
Title: Re: trucker's hitch?
Post by: Sweeney on May 31, 2014, 09:30:20 PM
I use the rope attached to a folding truck (6mm solid braid nylon) to carry boxes etc to shows and so the hitch is tied and then undone in about 15 mins usually (from car to venue). I need to be able to tie it quickly and the fixed (span) loop I used not only caused wear but was not easy to adjust if the load varies - only one rope but fixed to the truck so as to give 2 lines to attach, one on each side of the load.

I tried using a large "S" hook. Clove hitch the SP to one end of the hook and use the other end as the pulley. Works OK but the lack of friction between metal hook and rope makes it difficult to hold the tension while casting a half hitch to lock it. If you can get the tension it is pretty secure (a climbers' 'biner would do as well and is a lot stronger but the S hook is cheap if you lose it).

My latest version is to use a paracord sling as the pulley fastened to the main rope with a Heddon Hitch so it holds but I can move it. So far it works well and a foot or so of paracord is easily replaced when worn.

This use of the truckers' hitch is somewhat specialised so the solutions may not be suitable for other situations - but maybe it gives food for thought.

Barry
Title: Re: trucker's hitch?
Post by: xarax on May 31, 2014, 09:45:30 PM
the fixed (span) loop I used... caused wear

  Have you tried to use a double loop ? We have many more double TIB loops than single ones, and many of them can be tied and untied very easily and quickly.
Title: Re: trucker's hitch?
Post by: Sweeney on June 01, 2014, 05:53:09 PM
  Have you tried to use a double loop ? We have many more double TIB loops than single ones, and many of them can be tied and untied very easily and quickly.

Thanks for the suggestion. I did think about a double loop but if I had to retie it each time I used it it would be a nuisance for such a short period - and if I left it in place (as I probably would have done for speed) then the rope wear in the loop would become an issue. What I have now is slings which are permanently attached so all I have to do is thread the ropes through each one and if adjustment is necessary eg because the tie off is up against a box edge then I can move the sling instantly. If I do lose a bit of tension then I can even take up slack by moving the sling (not really recommended but if it's pouring with rain........!).

Barry
Title: Re: trucker's hitch?
Post by: xarax on June 01, 2014, 08:43:22 PM
the rope wear in the loop would become an issue.

   Indeed, a permanently attached, in one point of the line, loop, even if it is a double and "communicating" one ( so both eyes would bear evenly the same burden ), is condemned to suffer in its tip(s).
   The only solution I can imagine is to move the point of the attachment "upwards" or "downwards" from time to time, so the inevitable wear would be somehow distributed along the line...  Using the Trucker s hitch / Sheepshank hybrid shown in this thread would also address this problem. In fact, I think that the problem of wear in the permanently attached loop would be the main reason for such a solution, because, in a common Trucker s hitch, one can always remove the slack / adjust the tension by just pulling the Tail End itself, instead of the Sheepshank s bight ( especially if he has a metal hook at his second anchor point, as you do ).