International Guild of Knot Tyers Forum

General => New Knot Investigations => Topic started by: xarax on January 18, 2014, 09:10:09 PM

Title: A variation of the Bull hitch.
Post by: xarax on January 18, 2014, 09:10:09 PM
  Trying to "lock' the Cow hitch, I stumbled on this very simple idea : what will happen if we replace the one-and-a-half turn around the neck of the Bull hitch, with a Clove hitch? When I tried to use the Clove hitch as a nipping structure for an inversed Buntline, Eskimo-like loop (1), I had seen that it jams very tightly (2)- so I thought that I could take advantage of this, and utilize the Clove hitch instead of the ( crossed or not ) nipping loop of the ordinary Bull hitch (3). The resulting hitch, shown at the attached picture, seems to validate this idea. As we pull the ends, the Clove-hitch-made neck closes into itself and chokes the penetrating lines, so any tension inserted by them into the wraps remains firmly and permanently "locked" in there. 
( Note : Instead of the Clove hitch, we can also use the Constrictor, course, which also jams if it is tied around ropes (4)).

1. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4332
2. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4347
3. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=2166
4. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4507.msg28775#msg28775
Title: Re: A variation of the Bull hitch.
Post by: KnotMe on January 18, 2014, 09:22:30 PM
I know it's not your goal, but: pretty.   :)
Title: Re: A variation of the Bull hitch.
Post by: xarax on January 19, 2014, 01:49:41 PM
  Thanks. Evidently, you are the only one you saw those pictures and paid some attention to them... :) ( 2 clicks - the one was mine s ! ). However, I decided to post some new ones, a little sharper ( as sharp as my old zoom bridge camera could allow... When / if there will be some audience larger than the minimum one, I will buy a new camera, with a decent sharp lens and a better autofocus ).
   As one ( you... :)) can see, the two legs of the Clove hitch approach the surface of the pole being parallel to each other, and their grip on the "lock" is almost perfectly balanced. ( Regarding this, it helps if we pull the one end after the other, alternatively, and also if we push the "neck" towards the surface of the pole, so the Clove hitch "lock" would remain as tightly closed around itself as possible). On the contrary, in the Bull and in the Bull X hitch, the "lock" is not so tight, not so symmetric, and of course, not so pretty  :).
Title: Re: A variation of the Bull hitch.
Post by: SS369 on January 19, 2014, 06:30:23 PM
Nice Xarax!
And tie-able in the bight too.

I would not put too much into worrying/commenting on how many times a picture is view (clicked on to view that is). I have viewed them right after you loaded them and and sometimes it just does not leave the info.(?)
But they do show up very well in small (un-clicked) form.

If you tie it in the bight and reverse the loops, it makes for and interesting hitch as well.
Thanks.

SS
Title: Re: A variation of the Bull hitch.
Post by: xarax on January 19, 2014, 08:18:52 PM
   If you ... reverse the loops, it makes for an interesting hitch as well.

  I haven't thought that !  :) However, I find the reversed form not tight enough, not symmetric enough, and not pretty enough !  :)
  I did not mention the fact that the Bull-Clove hitch is TIB, because I though that, as it is based on the Clove hitch, it should have been expected to be so. For the moment, I tie it in-the-end, mostly - I would need some time to master the technique of tying it in-the-bight quickly and without thinking how to do it, so the wraps cross each other in the right way ... :) 
 
Title: A TIB, 4-wrap variation of the Bull hitch.
Post by: xarax on February 01, 2014, 06:09:12 PM
   A TIB, 4-wrap variation of the Bull hitch, which utilizes the mechanical advantage offered by the zig-zag-shaped paths of the lines of the parent Cow hitch ( a potentially very tight hitch, because both its ends can be pulled against the pole), and the "locking" efficiency offered by the opposing-tensioned-bights mechanism of the TackleClamp hitch.
  Both free ends pass in between one double-line bight, which pulls them towards the one side, and one single line bight, which pulls them towards the other. The combined choking action of those two bights works like a rope-made ratchet mechanism : any amount of tension which happens to be induced into the wraps of the hitch initially, during a pre-tensioning phase, can not but remain firmly "locked" within them for ever, even if the free ends are not tensioned any more. We can say that the double-line bight offers the mechanical advantage ( just as the single-line bight used to do in the parent Cow hitch ), and the single line bight offers the counter-acting half part of the locking mechanism, on the one hand, and the additional friction of its two wraps, on the other.
   This tight hitch/binder can be formed in a split second ( I am sure that Alan Lee can wrap and tighten it around the accessible end of a pole in the blink of the eye... :)), and my first "laboratory" tests indicate that it is as tight as the same-number-of-wraps Double Cow hitch. (1)

1. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4035.msg24345#msg24345
Title: Re: A variation of the Bull hitch.
Post by: xarax on February 01, 2014, 06:10:53 PM
 2.
Title: Re: A variation of the Bull hitch.
Post by: xarax on February 28, 2014, 01:58:10 PM
   It is always preferable to have the Standing and Tail Ends of a tight hitch be perpendicular to the axis AND to the surface of the pole, so we can pre-tighten the hitch harder by pulling those ends against the pole, without deforming the "locking" mechanism of them in any way - a disadvantage of the Constrictor, for example, and, although in a much lesser degree, of the Strangle as well. This optimum orientation of the ends of the hitching knot relatively to the hitched object happens in the case of the Bull X hitch ( and of the other hitches shown in (1)), and in the case of the Bull hitch which is based on a Clove-hitch tight "neck", presented in this thread. In the first post of the thread, I have mentioned that we can also use, as a tight "neck", the Constrictor, which is also able to choke the penetrating ends hard, and so keep any tension induced during a pre-tensioning phase firmly "locked" inside the wraps.
   The X ( X = crossed ) double nipping collar, the Clove and the Constrictor "necks" are obviously TIB, so we can form the tight Bull hitches based on them as nooses in the middle of the rope, and then insert the accessible end of the pole through their wraps - or vice versa. I have forgotten to mention that we can also use, as a "neck", the Cow/Girth hitch, which is also TIB, and can be formed even more easily and quickly than the Clove and the Constrictor. However, when used as a "neck" of a tight Bull hitch, with its axis perpendicular to the axis and the surface of the pole, it is twisted 90 degrees, and the consequence of this is a somewhat less symmetric configuration : each of the two ends is now nipped by the encircling "neck" in slightly different way than its pair. This might considered as a disadvantage - and it is not my cup of tea, either - but the hitch itself, as a whole, is very tight, despite this asymmetry. Moreover, the easiness and quickness of forming it in the middle of a line is a great advantage, which should not be underestimated.
   We have seen this Cow/Girth "neck" - based Bull hitch, as a noose : it is the Double Ring or Double Running knot, shown by Ashley at ABoK#1126. He does not mention it as a hitch, and he does not comment in its TIB advantage, perhaps because he believes it is obvious to all people - while it might be not so. In the middle of the line, and where the one end of the pole is accessible, it is perhaps the most easy and tight two-wrap tight hitch one can tie in a fraction of a second.   

1.  http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=2166.0
Title: Re: A variation of the Bull hitch.
Post by: johncd3141 on April 12, 2014, 12:59:18 AM
This knot has been bouncing around a couple of sailing forums under the name "Estar". Some refer to it as a modified buntline hitch due to the method of tying, which starts with a buntline, but ends up with a clove hitched collared bull hitch.  http://www.bethandevans.com/pdf/modifiedbuntline.pdf (http://www.bethandevans.com/pdf/modifiedbuntline.pdf)

Note: when pulling on just one standing end, the one you choose seems to makes a difference in the load it can sustain before breaking.
Title: Re: A variation of the Bull hitch.
Post by: xarax on April 12, 2014, 03:58:49 AM
  estar bounced around this Forum, too !  :)

   http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4756.msg30713#msg30713

  However, it was/is not "this knot", I am afraid. The "rope part" of the knot is, topologically only, the same, but the whole knot, geometrically, is different - because the way it is wrapped around the pole is different. Topology does not determine geometry uniquely - and there are many cases where two topologically identical knots are geometrically very different. Of course, if we take into account that, in this case, the "pole part" of the knot is, in a way, a part of the knot nevertheless, because the knot is a hitch, then the difference between the two knots becomes more evident. ( By starting from the Bull Clove hitch and "reversing the bights", i.e. SS369 has tied the estar hitch, at Reply#3 ).
  It not a "tight hitch"(1) : in the estar the two limbs of the nub do not encircle the pair of parallel and adjacent ends as much as they do in the Bull Clove hitch - moreover, they pull the diagonal element away from the pair of ends, while, in the Bull Clove hitch, it is the diagonal element that pushes them towards the pair of ends. So when the load is released, the grip around the pole is released, too. Also, there is no difference, in the Bull Clove hitch, in the loading pattern of the ends : any of them can be the Standing End, and any of them can be the Tail End : the Clove hitch "locking" nub, as it is positioned in relation to the pole, it is (almost) symmetric, regarding this matter. Tie both hitches on the same material, around the same pole, tighten them, and you will see and understand the difference in no time.
   I do not know how the Bull Clove hitch behaves when tied on Dyneema - it may well behave worse than the estar. However, on ordinary material, the Bull Clove hitch is not even comparable - because it utilizes the tendency of the Clove hitch to clinch tightly, and jam, when tied around a "compressible" material, while the estar does not use its 8-shaped nub like this at all.
 
   For two other one-wrap Buntline-like hitches, see (2). For the best 2-wrap "tight" hitch, see the "Locked Cow hitch" (3)-(4).

  1. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4155.0
  2. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4454.0
  3. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4035.msg24785#msg24785
  4. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4441.msg28170#msg28170

Title: Re: A variation of the Bull hitch.
Post by: DerekSmith on April 12, 2014, 08:52:37 AM
This knot has been bouncing around a couple of sailing forums under the name "Estar". Some refer to it as a modified buntline hitch due to the method of tying, which starts with a buntline, but ends up with a clove hitched collared bull hitch.  http://www.bethandevans.com/pdf/modifiedbuntline.pdf (http://www.bethandevans.com/pdf/modifiedbuntline.pdf)

Note: when pulling on just one standing end, the one you choose seems to makes a difference in the load it can sustain before breaking.

Hi John,

Nice observation there.

Do you have any thoughts as to why one end should be stronger than the other?
Title: Re: A variation of the Bull hitch.
Post by: xarax on April 18, 2014, 02:17:29 PM
   The amount of tension that can be induced and locked, during a pre-tightening phase, into the wraps of the Double Ring hitch ( ABoK#1126, qua hitch ), is incredible (1). Pulling the ends one by one against the pole, using hands and feet, as a rower, one can tie this very tight hitch / binder, very easily and quickly, in-hand and in-the-bight. I think that its annoying asymmetry, as it lies on its ear on the surface of the pole, is beneficial to its tightness nevertheless, because I have seen that the double nipping loop of an equally tightened common Bull hitch can not lock so tightly. However, I think that the Bull Clove hitch presented in this thread is even more tight, but it can not be tied so quickly, because, in order to be oriented properly and "close" ( jam ) tightly around the penetrating ends, the Clove nipping/locking "neck" requires some more careful dressing.

1. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4748.msg31275#msg31275
Title: Re: A variation of the Bull hitch.
Post by: enhaut on April 18, 2014, 05:36:04 PM
Nice,
It's agreable to see an ABOK in the flesh!
Easy to tie, it grips well indeed.
I like the photo from the book as "how-to-do"
Your presentations, as usual, are irreproachable.
ths.
Title: Re: A variation of the Bull hitch.
Post by: Dan_Lehman on April 18, 2014, 06:56:46 PM
This knot has been bouncing around a couple of sailing forums under the name "Estar". Some refer to it as a modified buntline hitch due to the method of tying, which starts with a buntline,
but ends up with a clove hitched collared bull hitch.  http://www.bethandevans.com/pdf/modifiedbuntline.pdf (http://www.bethandevans.com/pdf/modifiedbuntline.pdf)

Note: when pulling on just one standing end, the one you choose seems to makes a difference in the load it can sustain before breaking.

I think I know what you're saying : that it
resembles the bull hitch but vice that knot's
simple round turn is a clove hitch.
Now, I'm intrigued like Derek to understand
your further remark about "pulling on just
one ... end"!?  I would think that it would
be better to load the other end from what
EStar does, so that the first-loaded main
structure is the "two half-hitches" aspect
and not "buntline" --that force flow more
around the object, near & more-at-right-angle
into the SPart vs. the buntline's taking force
out farther away and slightly more acutely
into the SPart (at least, for relatively small-dia.
objects, I'd favor it thus)!?  But maybe that
"more-at-right-angle" loading delivers more
deflection & pressure on the SPart and leads
to a weaker structure.


--dl*
====
Title: "Estar hitch" mystery ( and myth )
Post by: xarax on September 09, 2014, 06:35:47 AM
This knot has been bouncing around a couple of sailing forums under the name "Estar". Some refer to it as a modified buntline hitch due to the method of tying, which starts with a buntline, but ends up with a clove hitched collared bull hitch.

   I have seen the pictures the author himself of the "Estar hitch" has provided - which I reproduce here ( the complete set of them, labelled bunt1, bunt2 and bunt3 )  from his very informative and interesting site : 
   http://www.bethandevans.com/load.htm

   Now, I can tell what the confusion is - which, unfortunately, the author of the "Estar hitch" never realized, or never wished to clarify :
   There are TWO ways one can drive the Tail End of a finished Buntline hitch around the pole, and re-tuck it through its two "holes" ( the Buntline hitch is "8" shaped, so it has two "holes" ).
   The first is what the attached original pictures show : this way does NOT lead to the Bull Clove hitch presented in this thread. So, if we try to follow the vague, incomplete instructions offered by the author, and attempt to understand what he says by seeing the original pictures provided by him, we end up with another hitch, which is NOT the Bull Clove hitch. It is the hitch shown by SS369 at Reply#3 :
http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4748.msg30678#msg30678
   The second way, which is NOT shown in those pictures, is to drive the Tail end around the pole FROM THE OTHER SIDE of the Buntline hitch from what is shown by the author, after making a 180 degrees additional turn around the Standing End. THAT way does generates the Bull Clove hitch, because it does complete the Clove hitch, as it should, and then re-tucks it through its two "holes" ( the two wraps of the Clove hitch can also be considered as two "holes" ).
   WHICH is the "Estar hitch" ? KnotGod knows !  :) I have repeatedly asked the author for a clarification, but he never bothered to reply to my posts or messages...
   Let us go to the "animated" site which is a-la-mode nowadays, and see if we can enlighten ourselves. First, the "Estar hitch" animation appears only as a window of the Buntline hitch. Second, what the animated .GIF file clearly shows, is NOT the Bull Clove hitch, but the hitch shown by SS369 at Reply#3. See the fourth attached picture, or visit :
http://www.animatedknots.com/buntline/index.php?LogoImage=LogoGrog.jpg&Website=www.animatedknots.com#EStar

   Now, one may wonder ( or not... ), why such experienced knot tyers as Derek Smith and Dan Lehman had not paid any attention to this simple, obvious fact, and instead preferred to ignore my own presentation, my pictures and my post at Reply#9... After all those years in this Forum, my theory has evolved, and it is now this : Knot tyers are those people who tie only their own knots, and snub all others ( other knot-tyers, and, oftentimes, other knots ! )  :). Well, there are exceptions in this rule, but it makes no harm to novice knot tyers to have this theory in the back of their mind, when they present a "new" knot...
Title: Re: A variation of the Bull hitch.
Post by: Dan_Lehman on September 13, 2014, 12:26:27 AM
Wow, that X. character sure can kick up a lot of
chatter, new or old.
Whatever my oversights prior,
I see that there are at least these two differences
available in the subject hitches:

1) the clove hitch can be loaded qua
two half-hitches, which hasn't been tested
(with tucked tail, i.e.), or qua buntline ;
and
2) the crossing part of the clove hitch can be
 viewable OVER the ends when we look at it
with ends coming OVER the hitched spar,
or it can be on the other side --in the former case,
one has the SPart/Tail reaching to wrap around
the straight parts AND THEN go through this
crossing part after,
and in the other case they push through the crossing
part as they reach to wrap.

AND the 2 diff.s above can be combined for 4 versions
(simply : 2 variations and then on them 2 ends to load).

<whew>

--dl*
====
Title: Re: A variation of the Bull hitch.
Post by: xarax on September 13, 2014, 01:57:38 AM
  Perhaps the ( indirect, and slooow, as always... :)) route I had followed, can shed some more light on the origins of this issue :
  I had tried to figure out a very tight, self-locking "neck", tighter than the double, crossed or not nipping loop used in the Bull and Bull X hitches, so that both ends, the "Standing End" and the "Tail End" ( those names do not have much meaning here, of course...), can be immobilized by its nip around them - and so both wraps, the direct continuation of the "Standing End" and the direct continuation of the "Tail End", could retain and accumulate any tensile forces happened to be inserted into them during the pre-tightening or the tightening phase. In other words, I had tried to turn the humble Cow hitch into a "tight" hitch, able to withstand a lengthwise pull ( to a satisfactory, considered its small size/required rope-length, degree ) in a different, more symmetrical way than the way used in the "Locked Cow hitch".
   The reminiscence of the Clove hitch been jammed around a segment of a rope ( see (1), and read my attempted explanation / theory about its behaviour, in relation to the expected, more "normal" behaviour of the Girth hitch ), was all that was needed to help me complete this small step - but the result was a very easy to tie, TIB and secure "tight" hitch, which could / should had been tied centuries ago !  :) It turns out that the primordial Clove hitch, when it is tied around the "soft", compressible surface of one or more segments of a rope, is a much more interesting knot than when it is tied around the "hard", incompressible surface of a spar !  Anyway, I was looking for a very tight, almost jamming "neck", and the Clove hitch was the first and simplest such thing that, sooner or later, should had crossed any knot tyer s mind.
   Now, I guess that Estar followed a completely different route - and so the fact that he did not tied the same hitch should not come as a surprize. He started from the most reliable one-wrap hitch he knew, the Buntline hitch, and then he tried to re-tuck it in some way, to add bells and whistles, curves and turns into the Standing Part s path, in order to increase friction, and immobilize it, so he could get a more secure hitch ,reliable even if it is tied on a very slippery materials. He was interested in preventing the slippage of the Tail End of a Buntline hitch, not in preventing the slippage of the Standing End of a Cow hitch, as I was. Different purposes, different means, different ends, as it should had been anticipated.

1.  http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4347
Title: Re: A variation of the Bull hitch.
Post by: Knutern on September 24, 2014, 12:12:33 AM
Thanks for sharing guys. I liked the looks of the Bull-Clove hitch  :D

Also, after some tries I managed to tie it at the bight too:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZHeJWUimB4&feature=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZHeJWUimB4&feature=youtu.be)
Title: Re: A variation of the Bull hitch.
Post by: xarax on September 24, 2014, 12:53:26 AM
   If a TIB method is difficult to memorize, learn, remember and execute, it is almost useless... There are knots that can be tied in-the-bight much easier and quicker than in-the-end - but even if this can not be achieved, we should not go to the other end ! I mean, we would never choose to tie a particular knot because it is TIB, although to tie it in-the-bight is considerably more complicated than to tie it in-the-end - as it is the case with your method. I bet there are "simpler" TIB methods for this knot, but I do not know what a "simple" tying method is !   :) ( I doubt whether we can define, in an objective way, "simplicity", even for the shape / structure of each different knot - therefore something that involves so many subjective and accidental elements, depending on the experience, dexterity, memory, etc., of each different knot tyer, will probably remain impossible, for ever. ) 
Title: Re: A variation of the Bull hitch.
Post by: Luca on September 24, 2014, 11:29:31 PM
Hello Knutern,

A very good TIB hitch by xarax,and a very good TIB method by you,in my personal experience(as noted by xarax,these things are individual matters)!
In your video you act slowly, which makes things very easy to understand,thank you.
Maybe it's just a bit laborious only to get what is shown at 00:28,but after all,it can be seen as an Overhand noose dressed in a particular shape;in ABoK,Ashley illustrates,about #1048,how to get quickly this figure:simply make an Overhand noose and then capsize the knot'nub as shown in the first pic(below);the result,in the second pic,is identical to what you show at 00:28,is just viewed from the opposite side.In this way everything should be done easier and in a more intuitive way, and I personally find that the rest of your method is also easy and intuitive (it's easy, IMO,after the haltering of the noose's loop, to identify which are the two bights that communicate directly with the standing ends, and the bight which must be back-flipped).
So, I think that(despite the opinion of xarax, the deviser of this hitch), at least after a bit of exercise, fundamentally the method that you show us has the opportunity to compete in speed and ease with the in-the-end method.

                                                                                                                                  Bye!

(http://)
Title: Re: A variation of the Bull hitch.
Post by: xarax on September 25, 2014, 01:44:07 AM
   We have seen this Cow/Girth "neck" - based Bull hitch, as a noose : it is the Double Ring or Double Running knot, shown by Ashley at ABoK#1126. He does not mention it as a hitch

   Not true : He mentions, in fact he names it as a hitch, at page 15, along with many other hitches. ( ABoK#60 )
   However, and this is the funny thing, it is the ONLY hitch in the page which is NOT shown as a hitch, tied on Ashley s tree ! (  See the attached picture ). So, the most "tight" hitch of all shown in this page, which can be tied in-the-bight and in a glance, is the ONLY one which is not shown tied around an object - and it is also considered being a "loose" hitch, in which " the ends, after passing around another object, are made fast to their own standing parts." ( at : ABoK#48 ). Evidently, Ashley believes that only the "snug" hitches are "tight" hitches, and that all the "nooses" are "loose". He has not discovered how a very tight "neck" can "lock" both standing parts, the Standing AND the Tail End ( as it happens in the case of the Bull Clove hitch and the ABoK#60=1126 ) - and how much the interaction of this "neck" with the hard surface of the object can enhance its gripping power ( as it happens in the case of the simple-hitch-a-la-Gleipnir ). He only cares about the locking and the security of the Tail End, which he believes should better be immobilized by being squeezed under one or more riding turns, as it happens with the "snug" hitches.
   I believe that was a great mistake - but a great knot tyer can do as many great mistakes he wishes, and yet remain a great knot tyer !  :)
Title: Re: A variation of the Bull hitch.
Post by: Luca on September 29, 2014, 11:38:29 PM
Hi xarax,

That is how I use to tie it, Luca. I also start from the slipped overhand knot - but this highly asymmetric start can be considered as inappropriate for a quite symmetric knot...

But in the end the Overhand knot (the knot's nub of the noose) in itself is symmetric, and the symmetric Clove hitch is the knot's nub of the(quite asymmetric) Bull-Clove hitch!(although maybe I think I have an idea of why you consider this hitch as quite symmetric: http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4929.msg32346#msg32346 )

I first tie the "Estar hitch" (  the one shown by SS369 at Reply#3 ), and then I flip it over, and form the Bull Clove hitch. .

I do not understand this: tied in the bight (and in the air), the knot is neither the one nor the other hitch(es) until to the moment when one decides how to apply it to the object that needs to be wrapped..or not?
Anyway:in Italian is said "discover the hot water",but only now I fully realize that the Bull-Clove hitch is REALLY a development of the simpler Bull hitch!Which in facts appears(has to be dressed) at 0:52 in the video by Knutern( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZHeJWUimB4&feature=youtu.be ). So,in fact, there is  also a "Bull hitch way" to build the Bull-Clove hitch.And the Bull hitch itself, is a development of the Girth hitch:in this way, starting from the Girth hitch(a symmetrical start!), is achieved quickly the Bull hitch (for those accustomed!Here a couple of methods: http://notableknotindex.webs.com/bullhitch.html ) ,and from the Bull hitch, just as quickly,is possible to obtain the Bull-Clove hitch(with the backflip visible starting from 1:18 in the video by Knutern.The first method shown on the Notable Knot Index page makes possible that also the Bull-Clove hitch can be used as ring hitch on the bight*:is sufficient that the backflip visible in the video also includes the ring ).
I include(below) some diagrams illustrating the backflip from a Bull hitch which has the same handedness than the one shown on the Notable Knot Index  page.

*EDIT:Both the methods illustrated on the Notable Knots Index page make possible that the Bull hitch and the Bull-Clove hitch can be used as ring hitches

                                                                                                                              Bye!
(http://)
Title: Re: A variation of the Bull hitch.
Post by: xarax on September 30, 2014, 12:25:51 AM
the Overhand knot... in itself is symmetric

   In what sense ? Even if you can claim that the ( ugly, in its common form ) overhand knot has some obscure symmetry in it, the slipped overhand knot, from which you start, has no symmetry whatsoever. We tie in-the-bight a rather symmetric, balanced, good looking knot, starting from a non-symmetric, and ugly initial configuration... Moreover, the Clove hitch appears only at the very end, like a deus ex machina ! I do not like it. If I had to tie quickly a two-wrap TIB "tight" hitch, able to withstand loading by both ends, and, for some reason, I could nt tie a Locked Cow hitch, I think I would had preferred the ABoK#60 / 1126 instead.
Title: Re: A variation of the Bull hitch.
Post by: xarax on September 30, 2014, 12:33:43 AM
   I do not understand this: tied in the bight (and in the air), the knot is neither the one nor the other hitch(es) until to the moment when one decides how to apply it to the object that needs to be wrapped.. or not ?

   Not !  :) There is no hitch without the object - in other words, the object ( the spar, in this case ) plays a vital role in the knot - it is, in a sense, a "passive" part of the knot. (2)
   Those two hitches are not one-wrap hitches, where the relative position and the orientation of the wrap(s) do not matter. Try to tie the Andalusian hitch, or any other of the "hitching cousins" tied by squarebanksAlaska (1), by rotating /"flipping" their wraps in the same way ...  :)
   
1. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4739.msg30590#msg30590
2. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4995.0
Title: Re: A variation of the Bull hitch.
Post by: Luca on September 30, 2014, 02:54:36 AM
the Overhand knot... in itself is symmetric

 In what sense ? Even if you can claim that the ( ugly, in its common form ) overhand knot has some obscure symmetry in it, the slipped overhand knot, from which you start, has no symmetry whatsoever.

De gustibus non est disputandum:to my eyes the Overhand is not so ugly...and it is (quite)symmetric(below some KM diagrams from my "archive").(and yes,the slipped Overhand knot is(very much)asymmetric)

Moreover, the Clove hitch appears only at the very end, like a deus ex machina ! I do not like it. If I had to tie quickly a two-wrap TIB "tight" hitch, able to withstand loading by both ends, and, for some reason, I could nt tie a Locked Cow hitch, I think I would had preferred the ABoK#60 / 1126 instead.

Perhaps it is even more true with respect to TIB methods described here, but in general it is always a bit like a puzzle to understand what happens when one performs the steps to realize a loop or a hitch in the bight rather than using the in the end method.
Anyway(In my personal experience) #60/1126 is not always easy(or at least quick) to dress and set it correctly...

   I do not understand this: tied in the bight (and in the air), the knot is neither the one nor the other hitch(es) until to the moment when one decides how to apply it to the object that needs to be wrapped.. or not ?

   Not !  :) There is no hitch without the object - in other words, the object ( the spar, in this case ) plays a vital role in the knot - it is, in a sense, a "passive" part of the knot.

But I find that this is actually a kind of confirmation of what I have written!
(and in this regard I have always been in agreement with you(an "old"(and extremely naive and incomplete) explanation:
OK, after some things a little obvious I wrote above, there is another thing a little obvious  that personally fascinates me with regard to snug hitches,which is that there is a sort of "mutual aid" between the hitch and the object that it wraps, because the object is grabbed by the hitch, but at the same time, the grabbed object itself,becomes an integrated and constitutive part of the hitch,which,removed from the object that grabs,often resolves itself to be nothing, just disappears!
)

   Those two hitches are not one-wrap hitches, where the relative position and the orientation of the wrap(s) do not matter. Try to tie the Andalusian hitch, or any other of the "hitching cousins" tied by squarebanksAlaska (1), by rotating /"flipping" their wraps in the same way ...  :)
 

Yes,but "Unfortunately" the hitch(es) in question work(s) with both the orientations of the wraps(I refrain from considering what works best in general or which best meets the expectations of those who have discovered these hitches (but "visually" I prefer the Bull-Clove,compared to the Estar ...)).

...there is  also a "Bull hitch way" to build the Bull-Clove hitch. And the Bull hitch itself, is a development of the Girth hitch : in this way, starting from the Girth hitch (a symmetrical start !),  the Bull hitch is achieved quickly ... and from the Bull hitch, just as quickly, it is possible to obtain the Bull-Clove hitch

  Right !  :)
  I hope somebody, you or Knutern, will make a video to "animate" this sequence of moves.

Still remains the problem that the Clove hitch/deus ex machina appears at the last moment ...
(http://)

   



Title: Re: A variation of the Bull hitch.
Post by: xarax on September 30, 2014, 07:43:51 AM
...to my eyes the Overhand is not so ugly... and it is (quite) symmetric

  In its 8-shaped form, it is very nice knot, just like the fig.8 knot. In its "other" form, it is "other" than nice, i.e. it is but nice  - so, what is it ? UGLY !  :)
  So, I would better say that, "in its common form"(sic), it is not manifestly symmetric. 
Title: Re: A variation of the Bull hitch.
Post by: xarax on September 30, 2014, 08:30:55 AM
(the) #60/1126 is not always easy (or at least quick) to dress and set it correctly...

  If the weight with which you load it is heavy enough, compared to the diameter of the rope, it is self-dressing. If it is not, then yes, it requires some care. However, we use "tight" hitches only when we need to "store" some tension in the wraps, so, presumably, we use them when we pull the end(s) forcefully, against the pole. ( I often use hands AND feet to be sure I had taken out any millimetre of slack I could ). In such cases, the knot is self-dressing.

   I do not understand this: tied in the bight (and in the air), the knot is neither the one nor the other hitch(es) until to the moment when one decides how to apply it to the object that needs to be wrapped.. or not ?

   Not !  :) There is no hitch without the object - in other words, the object ( the spar, in this case ) plays a vital role in the knot - it is, in a sense, a "passive" part of the knot.

 I find that this is actually a kind of confirmation of what I have written!

  No, I mean that the knot is not actually tied, its tying is not finished, until=unless you insert the spar in it - or wrap the spar with it. So, as the knot is not finished, it can not be "the one or the other hitch" : it is not either = neither of them. Only when you have "tied" it, when you have made anything that will determine its geometrical form after it will be tightened, only then you can tell what knot it is ( and, sometimes, not even then, because, in physical, not-ideal knots, topology does not determine geometry uniquely ),
   Therefore, what you have "tied" in the hand is not a finished knot, which you could compare to another, it is only the first stage of it : and it happens the first stage of tying the Estar knot to be identical to the first stage of tying the Bull Clove hitch. But the final move, where the spar takes its place in the knot, separates the men from the boys !  :)
   You could well had rotated the one or both wraps one less or one more 180 degree turn / one more time, the one clockwise and the other counter-clockwise, and form any of the four variations described by dan Lehman in Reply#15 ( and then some...), and only afterwards penetrate them with the spar. Would this mean that all those "knots" would be identical, "until" then ?
   That is what I meant in my comment : I was replying to your question : " Is the knot either the one or the other hitch until the moment when..."  There is no knot until this moment, at least there is no finished knot. The comment you cite now is 100% right, of course.

  Yes, but ....the hitch(es) in question work(s) with both the orientations of the wraps


  So what ? Are they the same knot, because they both work ? ? ?  :)
  What you have tied "in-the-hand" is only the first stage of a knot, which happens to be identical for both knots, it is not the finished knot. The finished knot requires the presence of the spar, and it requires a particular position of the spar within it. The fact that the spar can penetrate the unfinished "knot" in more than one ways ( it could had been the case that it could penetrate it in more than two ways ! ), and yet the TWO knots that are tied by those ways, both work, is not a proof of their identity ! It happens many times, the final tuck on a not-yet-finished knot, to generate two or more knots that work - but this does not mean that they were the same knot, until this final tuck ! The insertion of the spar within the two wraps is equivalent to one ( at least ) tuck, so we just can not compare unfinished knots = half tied knots, and tell if they are identical or not.
   
   
   Still remains the problem that the Clove hitch/deus ex machina appears at the last moment ...
   
   Our situation is improved - because now we can watch the formation of the Clove hitch out of / on top of the two "parallel" loops around the "neck" of the hitch. One should tie the Clove hitch somehow, and the way it is tied in this sequence of moves is simple, easy and conceptually much more clear than when we start from the slipped overhand knot, IMHO.   
   
   
Title: Re: A variation of the Bull hitch.
Post by: Knutern on September 30, 2014, 07:00:02 PM
.... snip ....
  I hope somebody, you or Knutern, will make a video to "animate" this sequence of moves.

Hi.

Have a look at this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AnBFo58O8u4&feature=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AnBFo58O8u4&feature=youtu.be)

I wish I had better light condition here and a better video recorder, but this is what I get from my webcam.
Title: Re: A variation of the Bull hitch.
Post by: Knutern on October 01, 2014, 12:05:58 AM
Hi.

I guess this method is simpler. Haven't tied it by this method more than some times so I cannot tell if this is the way I'll remember best.

The first way tying was just me cheating - that is I untied the knot, and thereafter I tied it again backwards (after playing a video of the untying in reverse).
However - I assume this isn't always resulting in the most effective ways to tie a hitch the TIB way. Partly because when watching a reverse video of an untying sequense, the rope makes som moves and twists that is very difficult or near impossible to perform.
Title: Re: A variation of the Bull hitch.
Post by: Luca on October 02, 2014, 03:44:32 AM
Hi xarax,

I first tie the "Estar hitch" (  the one shown by SS369 at Reply#3 ), and then I flip it over, and form the Bull Clove hitch. .

I do not understand this: tied in the bight (and in the air), the knot is neither the one nor the other hitch(es) until to the moment when one decides how to apply it to the object that needs to be wrapped..or not?



   I do not understand this: tied in the bight (and in the air), the knot is neither the one nor the other hitch(es) until to the moment when one decides how to apply it to the object that needs to be wrapped.. or not ?

   Not !  :) There is no hitch without the object - in other words, the object ( the spar, in this case ) plays a vital role in the knot - it is, in a sense, a "passive" part of the knot.

 I find that this is actually a kind of confirmation of what I have written!

  No, I mean that the knot is not actually tied, its tying is not finished, until=unless you insert the spar in it - or wrap the spar with it. So, as the knot is not finished, it can not be "the one or the other hitch" : it is not either = neither of them. Only when you have "tied" it, when you have made anything that will determine its geometrical form after it will be tightened, only then you can tell what knot it is ( and, sometimes, not even then, because, in physical, not-ideal knots, topology does not determine geometry uniquely ),
   Therefore, what you have "tied" in the hand is not a finished knot, which you could compare to another, it is only the first stage of it : and it happens the first stage of tying the Estar knot to be identical to the first stage of tying the Bull Clove hitch. But the final move, where the spar takes its place in the knot, separates the men from the boys !  :)
   You could well had rotated the one or both wraps one less or one more 180 degree turn / one more time, the one clockwise and the other counter-clockwise, and form any of the four variations described by dan Lehman in Reply#15 ( and then some...), and only afterwards penetrate them with the spar. Would this mean that all those "knots" would be identical, "until" then ?
   That is what I meant in my comment : I was replying to your question : " Is the knot either the one or the other hitch until the moment when..."  There is no knot until this moment, at least there is no finished knot.

I'm sorry, I expressed myself badly: the "... or not?"in my reply was just a rhetorical question:I'm aware that  "tied in the bight (and in the air), the knot is neither the one nor the other hitch(es) until to the moment when one decides how to apply it to the object that needs to be wrapped("unless, for example, is not tied in the bight around a ring",I add now)".My real question was why you wrote "I first tie the "Estar hitch" (  the one shown by SS369 at Reply#3 ), and then I flip it over, and form the Bull Clove hitch".


  Yes, but ....the hitch(es) in question work(s) with both the orientations of the wraps


  So what ? Are they the same knot, because they both work ? ? ?  :)
 

NO! They are not the same knot!They work differently!I agree with you(but,however,in this case,they  both work..).


   
   Still remains the problem that the Clove hitch/deus ex machina appears at the last moment ...
   
   Our situation is improved - because now we can watch the formation of the Clove hitch out of / on top of the two "parallel" loops around the "neck" of the hitch. One should tie the Clove hitch somehow, and the way it is tied in this sequence of moves is simple, easy and conceptually much more clear than when we start from the slipped overhand knot, IMHO.   

For how it seems to me,the Clove hitch-component appears in the same way and at the same (last) time,either using the Knutern/slipped Overhand-#1048-first-step way,either by using the "Girth + Bull hitch" way.
The advantages of the "Girth + Bull hitch" way are that, with regard to the idea of ​​a way it can evolve the Girth hitch, it is conceptually more correct,and that, from a more practical point of view, makes it possible to use the Bull Clove hitch as a "ring hitch in the bight",perhaps using a closed circle of rope(which in effect can perhaps be seen as a confirmation of a greater "conceptual correctness" of the use this method,since it is a prerogative both of the Girth hitch and the Bull hitch).
However, when used to wrap an "open" object , I personally find that the Knutern/slipped Overhand etc. way is a bit more quick and intuitive(mostly I find it easier to identify what is the bight that has to be backflipped)and also (this may be caused solely by the way I handle the rope) I have personally found a lower tendency of the rope to twist on itself during the execution of the knot.

Anyway, since you mentioned it in your first post, I attach (below) a series of diagrams illustrating how to get also the "Constrictor Bull hitch"(is just for "the collection"!) by the "Bull hitch way" method.

                                                                                                                                 Bye!
(http://)
   
   




   






Title: Re: A variation of the Bull hitch.
Post by: Luca on October 02, 2014, 03:51:18 AM
Hi Knutern,and thanks for your last video!


The first way tying was just me cheating - that is I untied the knot, and thereafter I tied it again backwards (after playing a video of the untying in reverse).

I also often cheat in a similar way(see above,for example!) when I'm trying to figure out how to perform a TIB knot!

                                                                                                                                  Bye!
Title: Re: A variation of the Bull hitch.
Post by: xarax on October 02, 2014, 09:48:22 AM
... a series of diagrams illustrating how to get also the "Constrictor Bull hitch" ( it is just for "the collection" ! ) by the "Bull hitch way" method.

  Beautiful !  :) I had never tied it in-the-bight, I was satisfied with the thought it could be tied so, some way ( because the Constrictor itself is TIB, just as the Clove ), but I had never actually tied it in any way ...
  I think that the Constrictor does not jam as easily as the Clove : In order to force it jam, you have to pull the ends harder, because of the added internal friction of the more convoluted knot you have to overcome, until they are squeezed upon each other so hard they are mutually immobilized and "locked", and so neither of them can slip either way.
   Of course, the Constrictor is a tighter knot, when/if it is tied around solid, hard objects, but that is due to the fact that the ends are "locked" more effectively. Around compressible, soft objects ( around the pair of rope ends in these cases ), I think that the wraps of Clove hitch can squeeze each other, and the penetrating pair of rope ends, more tightly than the Constrictor
Title: Re: A variation of the Bull hitch (Easier way to tie)
Post by: Knutern on November 08, 2014, 03:39:56 PM
I just had one of few moment that I got creative. Why not just tying this knot starting with the Clove Hitch?
It is way easier to remember than earlier recipies, at least I think so.

Video demonstration here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wi_ShE1nt_c&feature=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wi_ShE1nt_c&feature=youtu.be)
Title: Re: A variation of the Bull hitch.
Post by: Knutern on November 08, 2014, 05:05:37 PM
I assume the talking and the length of the video makes he audience bored, so I uploaded a short version of the video. No talking.
http://youtu.be/0D2Oh3UqSZs (http://youtu.be/0D2Oh3UqSZs)
Title: Re: A variation of the Bull hitch.
Post by: Knutern on November 08, 2014, 08:24:32 PM
   With thicker, one-light-colour rope, the sequence of moves would be easier to watch, I believe.
Yes, you're probably right. As you can see of the videos I have to "force" this relatively stiff rope so that it get a shape that is to be familiar.
Both light condition and the rope itself could be better, but I didn't put much work in that, only to get the idea  :D
Title: Re: A variation of the Bull hitch.
Post by: Luca on November 09, 2014, 12:07:16 AM
Hi Knutern,and great find.

Among the methods proposed so far,this is definitely the easiest to remember.The principle seems to be the same as the method proposed by Ashley for # 1126, I had not really thought of applying it to the Clove Bull hitch!
Personally (but I still have to take confidence!) I pay something after the tying phase because I find myself having in a certain sense to dress up again the Clove hitch component around the standing ends, but again: surely I am not yet manually confident with the method, and in any case the ease to remembering, alone is worth the price.
EDIT:by pulling the legs of the loops adjacent to the Clove component,the Clove component is(or at least:is almost) self-dressing!
                                                                                                                            Bye!
(http://)
Title: Re: A variation of the Bull hitch.
Post by: Knutern on April 14, 2015, 11:08:20 PM
Here is a short video that shows me tying the Bull clove hitch, the other way (TIB method)
Same stiff ugly rope  :P

https://youtu.be/Ht32DfWHktY
Title: Re: A variation of the Bull hitch.
Post by: xarax on April 16, 2015, 05:41:36 PM
   The much simpler ( and, I would dare to argue, much more intuitively clear ) method shown at :
   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0D2Oh3UqSZs&feature=youtu.be
   is also TIB ! As Luca has noticed, it is, essentially, an implementation of the method shown by Ashley at ABoK#1126 - which is the one of the three somewhat "similar" TIB "tight" hitches-nooses we have, able to be loaded by both ends, or by any one end (1). The difference is that in the one you start from the Bull hitch, and in the other you start from the Clove hitch - and you transform both of them into the Bull Clove hitch.

1.  http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=5255.0
Title: Re: A variation of the Bull hitch.
Post by: knotsaver on June 06, 2015, 08:38:27 AM

The principle seems to be the same as the method proposed by Ashley for # 1126, I had not really thought of applying it to the Clove Bull hitch!

(http://)

The same method  (ABOK #1126) can be used to tie the Bull Constrictor hitch, cited above. (I apologize if I'm writing something already written).
Title: Re: A variation of the Bull hitch.
Post by: xarax on June 06, 2015, 11:21:30 AM
   I do not like this Bull Constrictor hitch very much... I believe it is too convoluted, and, probably because of that, it can not be tightened very hard and become more effective than the ( much simpler and smaller in size/volume ) Bull Clove hitch. Such a bulky knot, with all those twisted segments, tied around two penetrating parallel lines, does not look very good to me. Moreover, I do not believe that we can exploit the tightness of the Constrictor, when we tie it around an object of a relatively small diameter : there is too much tension "wasted" within its own twists, and unable to reach to the surface of the hitched "object", the two penetrating lines.
Title: Re: A variation of the Bull hitch.
Post by: xarax on July 24, 2015, 04:53:05 PM
   The Bull Clove hitch is a TIB noose - and, as many TIB fixed and adjustable eyeknots, it can be tied easily and quickly in-the-bight by "haltering" the Clove-hitch-made collar. So, in order to tie it in-the-bight, there is nothing one has to memorize and remember, other than that this TIB knot, too, like many others, can be tied by following the "haltering the collar" method. I say this because many knot users ( and, unfortunately, even some knot tyers...) when they watch a video like the one shown by Knutern (1), they just attempt to "cut and paste" in their mind the exact sequence of moves, without trying to understand what they see. Perhaps a series of still pictures can show the same thing in a more clear way.
   1. Form a Clove hitch at the end of the bight. ( I show the Clove hitch in this uncommon "open" form, because in this form it can be handled easily and steadily by keeping its three crossing points between the fingers of one hand, without any danger to mingle and jumble up the two wraps. )
   2. Form the twin-line eye. Now, what you see is an eye"knot", its eye and its collar - but the two ends of this eyeknot are still bypassing the collar. They have to pass through it, and that is what the method of "haltering the collar" is meant to do.
   3. Halter the Clove-hitch-made collar : make the whole eye be "swallowed" all the way by one side ( any one of the two sides - the Clove hitch is symmetric in this ) of the "mouth" of the collar ( = of the two wraps of the Clove hitch ). Rearrange the segments, which may have been entangled during this move.
   4. Rearrange the segments of the Clove hitch, so it takes its common "closed" form. Its two ends become parallel to each other, and tangent to the surface of the pole.

1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0D2Oh3UqSZs&feature=youtu.be
Title: Re: A variation of the Bull hitch.
Post by: xarax on September 07, 2015, 12:16:48 PM
   There are two ways some knot tyers with ego problems ( believe me, there are lots of them, I do not know why...), can "burry" a knot that they would had wished they had tied first and by themselves, but they did not :
   1. Pretend it does not exist - and be silent about it as much as possible. Of course, not even mention the name given by its author ; instead, use the strangest way to hide it under the carpet. For example : " This ( willingly non-existing knot ), is to another knot X2, what a third knot X3 is to a fourth knot X4. " :) :)  I had recently read this "brilliant" way of burying a knot, and I was impressed by its evil ingenuity.
   2. Pretend that they had tied something "similar", which, in fact, is exactly the same - and leave people to wonder where the difference is ! :)

   Now, to be fair, I do not know the real motives of Seaworthy Lass, who happens to be also the moderator of the site :
   http://www.cruisersforum.com/
   and I do not wish to suppose that he, intentionally, wished to burry the Bull Clove hitch - because he correctly identifies the difference to the "Estar hitch", and he presents it, with pictures, at :
   1. http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f116/presenting-a-new-hitch-the-estar-xx-based-on-estar-hitch-127822.html#post1566378
   2. http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f116/presenting-a-new-hitch-the-estar-xx-based-on-estar-hitch-127822.html#post1566385

   However, he also claims that he had tied it before it was presented in this Forum, which is not what had happened.
   He also makes some funny comments about it, as that :
   " a similar hitch was put forward by a member called Xarax in the IGKT forum in January 2014 "(sic)
   ( notice the "similar" word... )
   " If he had focussed on an end line, not a mid line hitch and selected which part to make the tail for this knot (there are two options and they are not the same) and worked out how to tie it and presented it to that forum "(sic)
   ( notice the "not the same" words...)
   So, "his" knot ( which he calls "Estar-XX hitch", to honour, supposedly, me as well as the author of the completely different Estar hitch, a re-tucked Buntline hitch ), is different from the hitch shown in this thread - because, contrary to what is shown in his pictures ( I copy them, in the attached pictures - I believe I have the copy-right to do this, because they are pictures of the knot I had tied...), in my pictures, shown in this thread, I had not shown the one end shorter than the other ! :) :) :)
   Why do I tell this now ? Because I had visited this low-quality "popular" web super-market of knots called " Animated knots..."
and I got veeery ANGRY again ! The ignorants and/or idiots who run it, present 337 knots ( ! ! ! )( the "Estar hitch" and the "Gnat hitch" "best-sellers"/"offers" included...), BUT NOT THE GLEIPNIR !
   No wonder about the plagiarism of the so-called "Estar hitch" and/or stopper "variations", of which the one is the re-tucked Buntline hitch ( something totally different than the Bull Clove hitch )  and the other the Bull Clove hitch ( something exactly the same, by definition ! :)).
   So, for the record, I decided to not leave this pass without a comment.(  Some people believe that they are so much less stupid than they really are ).
   Read :
   http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=5487.0