International Guild of Knot Tyers Forum

General => New Knot Investigations => Topic started by: xarax on November 24, 2013, 10:50:26 PM

Title: A Janus TIB bowline
Post by: xarax on November 24, 2013, 10:50:26 PM
   Actually, there are four of them : the left- and the right-hand versions, where we reverse the "over" / "under" relations between the lines passing through the nipping loop. I have concluded that the one I show in this thread is the most compact one, with many advantages and no obvious disadvantages. I have also tried it on 6mm paracord ( alternating loading, 100 kg / 100 times :)). Very easy to untie - no jamming whatsoever.
   I would be glad if we could come up with an easy-to-remember TIB tying method - as easy as the TIB tying method of the shrank / single bowline-on-the-bight, for example (1).
   It seems that our situation improves : While we had a few only TIB bowlines, now we have too many new ones ! We have Scott s TIB bowlines, the JP s TIB variation of the Tresse bowline, Luca s TIB bowline and variations of the Lee s and the NotSure s loops, the Dan Lehman s and the other two simple re-tucked bowlines, the Lee s TIB link bowline, the Span crossing-knot loop, the Sheepshank midline loop, the inverse Tugboat B, the five simple flipped pet TIB loops, the shrank / single bowline-on-the-bight, the retucked ABoK#1451...- to name only the TIB bowlines that can be ring-loaded, that is, the eye legs are not bound in a "low" collar ( as it happens in the Jug sling / "Coming and going" bowline, or the Sheepshank bowline, for example ).
   It seems that, regarding new knots, we have tied too many but we have tried too few - and by "trying", I mean a systematic, laboratory trying=testing, where we can acquire NUMBERS. Anyway, I submit this new quartet of TIB bowlines to the brave knot experimentalist of the future.  :)


 This eyeknot was presented by alpineer at :
 Thank you, alpineer.
Title: Re: A Janus TIB bowline
Post by: xarax on November 25, 2013, 12:40:49 PM
   The difference I see in this bowline in comparison to the Scott s TIB bowline, is the diameter of the second, "low" collar. In Scott s TIB bowline the second collar encircles the rim of the nipping loop and the returning eye leg ( two rope diameters ), while in this TIB bowline it encircles the eye leg of the Standing part as well ( three rope diameters). Also, this bowline is a little bit more compact than Scott s TIB bowline. So, for the time being, I have decided to milk this cow...  :)
Title: Re: A Janus TIB bowline
Post by: Dan_Lehman on November 26, 2013, 08:24:49 AM
... and by "trying", I mean a systematic, laboratory trying=testing, where we can acquire NUMBERS.

One can acquire numbers by rolling dice, too.  There are
already numbers out and about; what does a practical
knot tyer do with them?  (And what does she do while
waiting to be given them?)

Title: Re: A Janus TIB bowline
Post by: xarax on November 26, 2013, 12:16:09 PM
One can acquire numbers by rolling dice, too.

  Yes, and that is how the branch of Mathematical science named Probability Theory and Statistics was initiated.

Its mathematical foundations were laid in the 17th century with the development of the probability theory by Blaise Pascal and Pierre de Fermat. Probability theory arose from the study of games of chance.

( Wrong comment - I have not studied the statistics of correct and wrong comments in this Forum, but I prefer to spend my time tying "random knots"(sic-by roo) :), like the one presented in this thread. )

There are already numbers out and about; what does a practical knot tyer do with them? 

  Practical knots are NOT used by "practical knot tyers" only ! Me, for one, I tie practical knots, and practical knots only, out of an "academic" curiosity and because I like to do this, but I seldom use them anywhere. However, I suppose that if a "practical knot tyer" knows - because this has been indicated or proven by numbers - that a certain knot is less stable, secure, or strong, or jams more than another, he will think twice before using it. ( I can not predict what he will decide after the second time, though !  :) )
   I hope that some experimental data, which are by and large lacking, will help us reduce the amount of knots we keep in our mental toolbox - and this will be an economy for our brain, if nothing for anything else. I had not suspected that the Clove hitch or the Constrictor would jam so much, when used as nipping structures for secure bowlines. My rudimental experimental data suggested that I had underestimated this danger. Now I know better, I will not consider those knots as nipping structures any more, so a few brain cells of my shrinking brain can be occupied with other matters.
   Even if those numbers sought are not used anywhere now, and even if they will proved to be of little or no value whatsoever in the future ( which, of course, is a thing we can not predict = foretell, by rolling dice or playing cards  :)),  their acquisition can not do any harm, I guess. Their presence may drive the mental game of practical knotting towards the one or the other direction, and this would be interesting per se.  :) 
Title: Re: A Janus TIB bowline
Post by: xarax on December 06, 2013, 02:56:31 PM
   As the collar around the eyeleg is a "Myrtle" and not a not a "proper" collar, nor is it a link around the crossing point of the nipping loop before the collar around the Standing end, this secure bowline is neither a proper Janus bowline, nor a proper "link" bowline...(1).
   I wish I show why, for the time being, this is my favourite secure bowline : It is not only the number of the lines going through the nipping loop, but the way they cross, perpendicularily, each other as well, that makes it such a nice eyeknot : See the 3-symmetry around the centre of the nipping loop / ring, as shown at the pictures. 

Title: Re: A Janus TIB bowline
Post by: alpineer on December 07, 2013, 02:05:08 AM
Bowline/Fig. 8 hybrid at Reply #145 and agent_smith's Reply #151
Title: Re: A Janus TIB bowline
Post by: xarax on December 07, 2013, 12:08:03 PM
   Oh, it should had been hiding into a deep dark cave for so long... otherwise I would had remembered it ! Buried under the infamous "Karash" double bowline, I suppose it was difficult to be seen. Also, its TIB character has not been mentioned as clearly as it should - and I had not been able to "see" it at that time, nor was I interested in TIB PET eyeknots then so much as I am now.. )
   I reproduce the original pictures, so the interested reader who would like to reply would be able to do this here, without having to go back to " a topic that has not been posted in for at least 120 days " !  :) ( What a nonsense ! )
   ( As a cow farmer to a cow farmer : the name "Cow-boy 8" is not very descriptive : I see no boy, and no #8 either... Of course, this cow is yours, so you can name it as a cow or a girl, as a bull or a boy, or with whichever animal / sex you wish. Alpineer s bowline would be fine, too, IMHO.)
   See the attached pictures posted by Alpineer at :
Title: Re: A Janus TIB bowline
Post by: xarax on December 07, 2013, 12:12:28 PM
   Pictures of rthe same knot by agent-smith :
Title: Re: A Janus TIB bowline
Post by: xarax on June 20, 2014, 03:12:50 AM
   there are four of them

   Noope ! There are six of them - and I will explain why.

   At (1), Alan Lee has shown one, only, "left-handed", and one, only, "right handed" Alpineer s bowline-like Janus TIB bowlines. I had said that they were four - but it seems I had enumerated them wrongly. The correct calculation is rather simple, but we should NOT make any mistakes in addition, as I did !  :)
  In the case of the "left-handed" ones, the two legs of the collar cross each other inside the nipping loop ( which is almost circular ) : they form an X , made by two crossing cords of a circle. Now, two crossing chords of a circle divide it in four areas.  Let us call them Upper, Lower, Left and Right. I any Janus bowline, after the Working End, in its path through the nub, has made its U-turn around the eye-leg ( = after it has formed the second, "lower" collar ), it should penetrate the nipping loop for the third time. So, in order to do this, in this case it has to pass through one of those four openings. It turns out that, when it passes through either the Left or the Right opening ( and then it is re-tucked through the collar, as described at (2)), the generated bowline is TIB. It does not matter if the second leg of the collar crosses the first by going "over" or "under" it : in any of those two cases, we get two TIB bowlines, so the "left-handed" Alpineer s bowline-like Janus TIB bowlines are four, in total.
   In the case of the "right-handed" ones, the two legs of the collar do not cross each other : as the first "ascents" towards the Standing end the second "descends" towards the nipping loop, they remain almost parallel to each other - and two not-crossing chords divide the circle in three, only, areas. Let us call them Left, Central and Right. It turns out that, in order to get a TIB bowline, the Working End should pass through the Left or the Right opening, but not through the Central opening - so the "left-handed" Alpineer s bowline-like Janus TIB bowlines are two.
   Four "left-handed", plus two "right-handed", made six, the last time I added them !  :)   


   P.S. Of course, for all those six different variations of the Janus TIB bowline, there is the same problem : Do they suffer from the "too-early-locking", noticed by Alan Lee ?
   Does the nipping loop "close" and immobilize the three segments which penetrate it, well before the second/"lower" collar can "close" - i.e., before the Tail End, the last line of defence against slippage, is tensioned and starts to participate to the distribution of the tensile forces within the knot s nub ? We have to wait Alan Lee s tests to learn something about this !  :)