International Guild of Knot Tyers Forum

General => Practical Knots => Topic started by: Festy on August 04, 2013, 04:17:35 PM

Title: Gleipnir Binder in series
Post by: Festy on August 04, 2013, 04:17:35 PM
If you had to bind several broom handles together, is there a way of doing this by tying a series of Gleipnirs at intervals using a long piece of cordage, but without cutting the cord into seperate pieces?

If this is possible, could it be explained how to go about it please?

Thanks,
F
Title: Re: Gleipnir Binder in series
Post by: knot4u on August 04, 2013, 04:43:29 PM
This is possible, but a series of Strangles (Double Overhands) would be easier and faster to tie and easier to adjust.

To tie the series of Gleipnirs, tie the first Gleipnir with a long working end.  To tie the second Gleipnir, look at a Gleipnir diagram and tie the knot like you have access to only one working end. Repeat for the third Gleipnir, etc.

Tying a series of Gleipnirs is less efficient because you have to fiddle with the working end coming through the knot twice for each Gleipnir and it's a more detailed type of fiddling on top of that.  In contrast, for each Strangle, the long working end just has to be fiddled through each knot once.
Title: Re: Gleipnir Binder in series
Post by: Dan_Lehman on August 04, 2013, 05:58:38 PM
Yes.
Orient each Gleipnir so that the (long and
diminishing w/each reach & next knot) tail is
taken out of the nipping turn so that it presses
against the other (and not directly against the
loop).  (I illustrated four ways of orienting the
tuck of the ends --Search for it (or X1 will have
it by his finding magic, soon!)--, and there is
one where if the ends are pulled in opposite
directions perpendicular to the wrapping
of the binder
(which is what is needed for
running the length of the bound brooms)
they turn against each other and so
don't distort --and hold open(!)-- the turNip.

With some possible additional bolstering of one
binder, or with four binders and then handling
the part reaching between the inner two,
you should be able to use this reaching part
qua handle --a slight bonus to the binding!

Quote
... a series of Strangles (Double Overhands) would be ...
... vulnerable to losing grip & security against the
non-solidly rounded/convex circumference of the
collection of handles; one wants a knot with the
nipping/security done by cordage alone, not needing
contact with the object(s) ("mid-air", is it?).


--dl*
====
Title: Re: Gleipnir Binder in series
Post by: Festy on August 04, 2013, 07:24:08 PM


It all depends on how fast you are trying to tie this and how many knots you are trying to tie in a series. Tying 10 Gleipnirs in a series would be tedious. Tying 10 Strangles in a series would not be that bad.

In the broom handles example - 1 knot at each end + 1 in the middle, so 3 in all
Title: Re: Gleipnir Binder in series
Post by: knot4u on August 04, 2013, 07:24:53 PM
For the series of Strangles, contact with object is unnecessary for the intermediate Strangles. You can tie Gliepnirs at the ends. The Gliepnirs at the ends keep the tension for all the intermediate Strangles. Further, the intermediate knots don't even have to be Strangles. They can be Overhands.  I currently have poles in my garage bundled tightly in this manner.

Anyway, it all depends on how fast you are trying to tie this and how many knots you are trying to tie in a series. Tying 10 Gleipnirs in a series would be tedious. In contrast, tying 2 Gleipnirs and 8 Overhands in a series would not be that bad.
Title: Re: Gleipnir Binder in series
Post by: knot4u on August 04, 2013, 07:28:29 PM


It all depends on how fast you are trying to tie this and how many knots you are trying to tie in a series. Tying 10 Gleipnirs in a series would be tedious. Tying 10 Strangles in a series would not be that bad.

In the broom handles example - 1 knot at each end + 1 in the middle, so 3 in all

I'd go with a Gleipnir at each end and 3 Overhands in series in the middle. It would be about the same amount of rope, much faster to tie, and more secure. Again, I currently have poles tied together in this manner in my garage.
Title: Re: Gleipnir Binder in series
Post by: Festy on August 04, 2013, 07:35:52 PM


I'd go with a Gleipnir at each end and 3 Overhands in series in the middle. It would be about the same amount of rope, much faster to tie, and more secure. Again, I currently have poles tied together in this manner in my garage.

can they all be tied using a single length of cord?
Title: Re: Gleipnir Binder in series
Post by: knot4u on August 04, 2013, 07:39:39 PM


I'd go with a Gleipnir at each end and 3 Overhands in series in the middle. It would be about the same amount of rope, much faster to tie, and more secure. Again, I currently have poles tied together in this manner in my garage.

can they all be tied using a single length of cord?

Yes, try it.
Title: Re: Gleipnir Binder in series
Post by: knot4u on August 04, 2013, 07:42:11 PM
Here is a diagram of the series of Overhands, but ignore the knot on the left and tie a Gleipnir at each end of the series of Overhands.

(http://0.tqn.com/d/np/knots/9781593370329_ps_0202_002.jpg)
Title: Re: Gleipnir Binder in series
Post by: Festy on August 04, 2013, 07:46:18 PM
Here is a diagram of the series of Overhands, but ignore the knot on the left and tie a Gleipnir at each end of the series of Overhands.

(http://0.tqn.com/d/np/knots/9781593370329_ps_0202_002.jpg)

It's the 2nd Gleipnir that is the problem. The mechanics of tying it without having two free ends is the puzzle.
Title: Re: Gleipnir Binder in series
Post by: knot4u on August 04, 2013, 07:48:25 PM
Here is a diagram of the series of Overhands, but ignore the knot on the left and tie a Gleipnir at each end of the series of Overhands.

(http://0.tqn.com/d/np/knots/9781593370329_ps_0202_002.jpg)

It's the 2nd Gleipnir that is the problem. The mechanics of tying it without having two free ends is the puzzle.

It's not much of a puzzle.  Look at a loosely tied Gleipnir and figure it out.
Title: Re: Gleipnir Binder in series
Post by: knot4u on August 04, 2013, 07:50:33 PM
By the way, there is a slight modification to the original Gleipnir that makes it more secure.  It's been called the Gleipnir X in other threads.  I can post a pic later if you don't know what I mean.
Title: Re: Gleipnir Binder in series
Post by: Festy on August 04, 2013, 07:54:33 PM
By the way, there is a slight modification to the original Gleipnir that makes it more secure.  It's been called the Gleipnir X in other threads.  I can post a pic later if you don't know what I mean.

Yes, that might help
Title: Re: Gleipnir Binder in series
Post by: knot4u on August 04, 2013, 08:09:51 PM
(http://i1221.photobucket.com/albums/dd468/iq201/Public/Bind-GleipnirX.jpg)
Gleipnir X
Title: Re: Gleipnir Binder in series
Post by: Festy on August 04, 2013, 08:24:18 PM
(http://i1221.photobucket.com/albums/dd468/iq201/Public/Bind-GleipnirX.jpg)
Gleipnir X

Yes, it's more secure alright. Thanks knot4u, I'll be practising tying it for the next few days!  ;)
Title: Re: Gleipnir Binder in series
Post by: Festy on August 05, 2013, 01:18:30 PM
Using a few 6' lengths of 2" x 1" rough, and the standard Gleipnir, I tied the first on one end as normal, then three more by doubling one tail each time, which gives a loop on each of the three.

It works well, with the added bonus of using the two loops in the middle for carrying the bundle. Using two of the loops as handles will prevent the load from swinging as you walk, thus protecting your legs from being bruised.

I don't have a photo yet.
Title: Re: Gleipnir Binder in series
Post by: Festy on August 05, 2013, 02:09:43 PM
Photos of set up
Title: Re: Gleipnir Binder in series
Post by: knot4u on August 05, 2013, 04:04:02 PM
Cool! Thanks for the pics!

I'm glad it worked out. What are the three on the left? Is each a Gleipnir with a slipped tail?
Title: Re: Gleipnir Binder in series
Post by: Festy on August 05, 2013, 04:21:36 PM
Cool! Thanks for the pics!

I'm glad it worked out. What are the three on the left? Is each a Gleipnir with a slipped tail?

The first one on the left is a standard Gleipnir and the other three are slipped.
Title: Re: Gleipnir Binder in series
Post by: Dan_Lehman on August 05, 2013, 05:13:19 PM
For the series of Strangles, contact with object is unnecessary for the intermediate Strangles.

But then you don't need them at all.

In fact, it's as necessary as otherwise : the knot either
binds or is superfluous.  Use clove / half- hitches then;
both are more easily tied/untied.

... [edit] which I see you recognize in the further
recommendation for a sort of marling of the collection.
A half-hitch I think will be more readily tightened
around a collection than the overhand.  !?


--dl*
====
Title: Re: Gleipnir Binder in series
Post by: Dan_Lehman on August 05, 2013, 05:17:09 PM
Yes, it's more secure alright.
Thanks knot4u, I'll be practising tying it for the next few days!  ;)

And this is the particular orientation of the ends
that facilitates the connecting-a-series as you intend
--the ends bear against each other and don't pull
open the nipping turn.

--dl*
====
Title: Re: Gleipnir Binder in series
Post by: knot4u on August 05, 2013, 06:45:47 PM
Cool! Thanks for the pics!

I'm glad it worked out. What are the three on the left? Is each a Gleipnir with a slipped tail?

The first one on the left is a standard Gleipnir and the other three are slipped.

That works for you, but be aware that this setup is more vulnerable to tampering.  If somebody pulls the rope at the wrong spot (not hard to do), the Gleipnirs will come loose rather easily.

One solution to addressing tampering is make a Half Hitch on each slip.  However, for me, it starts getting too complicated at that point.  Instead, I'd go with a Marling Hitch variation (as described above) with Gleipnirs on the ends.  I'd figure out something else for the handles or make do without.  Here are some pics of Marling Hitches:

https://www.google.com/search?q=Marling+Hitch&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=4uP_UYjkCKGuiAKxmYCgCQ&ved=0CEoQsAQ&biw=1366&bih=653 (https://www.google.com/search?q=Marling+Hitch&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=4uP_UYjkCKGuiAKxmYCgCQ&ved=0CEoQsAQ&biw=1366&bih=653)
Title: Re: Gleipnir Binder in series
Post by: knot4u on August 05, 2013, 06:55:15 PM
... [edit] which I see you recognize in the further
recommendation for a sort of marling of the collection.
A half-hitch I think will be more readily tightened
around a collection than the overhand.  !?

Yes, but I often prefer a series of Overhands in a Marling Hitch because they communicate more easily than Half Hitches.  The Gleipnirs on the ends keep the knot system tight.  All the knots are dependent on each other, and that's typically what I want.
Title: Re: Gleipnir Binder in series
Post by: kd8eeh on August 12, 2013, 10:42:10 PM
For a similar task, i usually use tie constrictors and pass them over one end of the brooms, and pull through the slack.  This way i never have to deal with the end of the rope.  You can also tie a glempir like this, although adjusting it is much more of a pain.  I don't know if this is the normal glempir, so tell me if you can't see how to tie it.  sorry for the picture, my phone's battery died.
Title: Re: Gleipnir Binder in series
Post by: Dan_Lehman on August 13, 2013, 07:49:59 AM
For a similar task, i usually use tie constrictors and pass them
over one end of the brooms, and pull through the slack.  This way
i never have to deal with the end of the rope.
But you must deal with the end of the brooms,
or whatever collection is to be bound --possibly
an issue.

Quote
You can also tie a glempir like this,
although adjusting it is much more of a pain.
I don't know if this is the normal glempir,
so tell me if you can't see how to tie it.
sorry for the picture, my phone's battery died.

We weren't looking for glempirs (or gremlins),
but Gleipnirs --and you've shown something
unrealized by me, unstated so far : that this now
famous knot is essentially a re-purposed double
constrictor
(with that darn "front/back" issue)!!
Good show!
 :D

--dl*
====
Title: Re: Gleipnir Binder in series
Post by: alpineer on August 13, 2013, 09:22:11 AM
and you've shown something
unrealized by me, unstated so far : that this now
famous knot is essentially a re-purposed double
constrictor
 

--dl*
====


It is? I don't see that. Am I missing something?
The Gleipnir is not TIB. Unless this is what you mean by essentially, which would be stretching the word's meaning?
Yes. I see it now. :) Good job kd8eeh!
Did you miss this one xarax?
Well, I see a Gleipnir variant, which is TIB.
Title: Re: Gleipnir Binder in series
Post by: xarax on August 13, 2013, 09:53:10 AM
Did you miss this one xarax?
Well, I see a Gleipnir variant, which is TIB.

No, I am not sooo old and forget sooo quickly as someoneElse is/does !

    Has it been noted that if the double constrictor (#1252) is brought off of the object and laid riding-turns-down on a table,
folding the out turns back down and (lifting off of the table) then brought together (180deg from their c. orientation) so that the 3rd/central turn remains pointing up, that one has then a gleipnir version!?
Title: Re: Gleipnir Binder in series
Post by: alpineer on August 13, 2013, 10:00:53 AM
Did you miss this one xarax?
Well, I see a Gleipnir variant, which is TIB.

No, I am not sooo old and forget sooo quickly as someoneElse is/does !

    Has it been noted that if the double constrictor (#1252) is brought off of the object and laid riding-turns-down on a table,
folding the out turns back down and (lifting off of the table) then brought together (180deg from their c. orientation) so that the 3rd/central turn remains pointing up, that one has then a gleipnir version!?

Chuckle
Title: Re: Gleipnir Binder in series
Post by: alpineer on August 13, 2013, 02:43:18 PM
...
The Gleipnir is not TIB. Unless this is what you mean by essentially, which would be stretching the word's meaning?
Yes. I see it now. :) Good job kd8eeh!
Did you miss this one xarax?
Well, I see a Gleipnir variant, which is TIB.

Actually, the Gleipnir can be tied in the bight very easily. First tie a clove hitch, then twist each loop an extra 180 degrees in the same direction and the result is -- magically -- a Gleipnir, TIB.

-- JP

This is that Gleipnir variant being referred to.
Title: Re: Gleipnir Binder in series
Post by: James Petersen on August 13, 2013, 02:47:58 PM

Actually, the Gleipnir can be tied in the bight very easily. First tie a clove hitch, then twist each loop an extra 180 degrees in the same direction and the result is -- magically -- a Gleipnir, TIB.

-- JP

This is that Gleipnir variant being referred to.
Actually after reading your post several more times I became uncertain which was referred to -- and tried to delete the post, but you quoted me in the reply before I could -- my bad.

-- JP
Title: Re: Gleipnir Binder in series
Post by: Festy on August 13, 2013, 04:49:20 PM

Actually after reading your post several more times I became uncertain which was referred to -- and tried to delete the post, but you quoted me in the reply before I could -- my bad.

-- JP

Thank you JP, that makes the whole exercise so simple.

cheers
F
Title: Re: Gleipnir Binder in series
Post by: Dan_Lehman on August 13, 2013, 05:26:50 PM
Did you miss this one xarax?
Well, I see a Gleipnir variant, which is TIB.

No, I am not sooo old and forget sooo quickly as someoneElse is/does !

    Has it been noted that if the double constrictor (#1252) is brought off of the object and laid riding-turns-down on a table,
folding the out turns back down and (lifting off of the table) then brought together (180deg from their c. orientation) so that the 3rd/central turn remains pointing up, that one has then a gleipnir version!?

Chuckle

Wow, if I could just change my names, I could have
here a compliment to myself there !!!  --Hey, that
DL character is clearly before his time!!
  ;D   :D   ;)    :P     ::)      :o

Well, <sigh>, so it goes.  Sometimes I do catch myself
about to record a long-ago (or not-so-long-ago) already
recorded *new* knot.  After all, my familiarity with such
novelty often comes on-the-fly and with a duration of use
matching the suddenness of discovery --and not with
some new-for-use structure that builds memory.
(SOMEtimes, it is interesting to contrast the *paths*
in which I arrived at the discovery.)

I must say : that X. character has some kind of amazing
seek-&-find ability!!


--dl*
====
Title: Re: Gleipnir Binder in series
Post by: [Inkanyezi] gone on August 13, 2013, 06:05:26 PM
I find it easiest to tie the Gleipnir in a bight by doing the same operation as when tying two half hitches bu first laying two round turns, then passing one of them to the other side of the other. Doing this once again creates a Gleipnir.
Title: Re: Gleipnir Binder in series
Post by: Festy on August 14, 2013, 04:14:56 PM
For a similar task, i usually use tie constrictors and pass them over one end of the brooms, and pull through the slack.  This way i never have to deal with the end of the rope.  You can also tie a glempir like this, although adjusting it is much more of a pain.  I don't know if this is the normal glempir, so tell me if you can't see how to tie it.  sorry for the picture, my phone's battery died.

The Constrictors won't tighten on all types of bundles like the Gleipnirs will. Using the method of tying the Gleipnir outlined by James Petersen (the JP method?  :D) makes it much less of a pain to adjust.

I tried it out today on some lengths of rectangular profile timber and it works perfect.
Title: Re: Gleipnir Binder in series
Post by: kd8eeh on August 16, 2013, 03:07:03 AM
You could also try to tie a clove hitch around one broomstick, wrap it around all of them, and then put another clove hitch around the first one.  I say clove hitch because it is easy to tie in a bight.  You could make layers like this and then slide each layer down.  I haven't tested it, and it would require a good deal of adjustment after tying, but it may work.
Title: Re: Gleipnir Binder in series
Post by: knot4u on August 16, 2013, 11:09:34 AM
You could also try to tie a clove hitch around one broomstick, wrap it around all of them, and then put another clove hitch around the first one.  I say clove hitch because it is easy to tie in a bight.  You could make layers like this and then slide each layer down.  I haven't tested it, and it would require a good deal of adjustment after tying, but it may work.

I don't understand.  Maybe re-write without any pronouns like "it", "them", "this", or "one."
Title: Re: Gleipnir Binder in series
Post by: alpineer on August 17, 2013, 11:46:55 AM
Wow, if I could just change my names

I've heard knudeNoggin gives good advice on these matters. ;) He shows up on this forum occasionally. Surely you haven't forgotten about him? ;D