International Guild of Knot Tyers Forum

General => Chit Chat => Topic started by: Lasse_C on August 03, 2006, 11:49:52 AM

Title: Essential Knots?
Post by: Lasse_C on August 03, 2006, 11:49:52 AM
Different versions of this question has been up from time to time, but just for the fun of it I would like to raise the issue once more:
Let us introduce the term “Essential Knots”, meaning the basic knots you need to know in order to have a reasonable ability to choose the right knot in most situations.

How many are the “Essential Knots”? Five or six? Ten? Twenty? Thirty?

Once that is decided: Which knots should be on the list?

Suggestions, anyone? (I think we can make a poll out of this later….)

Lasse C
Title: Re: Essential Knots?
Post by: oceanplats on August 03, 2006, 12:16:32 PM
i work at sea so these are always used -
Bowline
Clovehitch
Sheetbend(or x2)
round turn 2 1/2 hitches
rolling hitch
constrictor knot (for me)
carrick bend
Thats about it ,
Never seen a sheepshank used.
Cheers
Title: Re: Essential Knots?
Post by: KC on August 04, 2006, 12:21:13 AM
i think that a few knot families should be shown; then there useful variants for a wider command with less details (because of similarities).  Show SheetBend and Bowline as 1 lesson etc.

For example:

Sheet Bend Family:
--->Sheet Bend's hitch to eye is Becket(more secure); can be toggled with smooth rod
--->SheetBend to self is is Bowline Knot; preferred non-shrinking eye
--->Bowline to Bowline (or with steel device in between) is another way to join lines

Anchor Family:
--->Sweet Simplicity-RoundTurn sitting on it's own tail;  Sheet bend family and other improved with RT
--->High security and can be slipped as well as other knots here
--->Anchor to self is Double Noose; a preffered shrinking eye choice

Crossed Turn + Hitch Family:
--->Clove
--->Constrictor
--->Snug Hitch(?) almost security of constrictor but less fight to free
--->Transom
--->Lashing
--->Perhaps Clove to self for another shrinking eye choice- Buntline

Crossed Turn + Hitch Opposed Family:
--->Girth
--->Cow(either here or as BackHand Hitch due to pattern and only pulling 1 leg of line
--->Prusik(s)

Backhand Hitch Family:
--->Muenter
--->Timber
--->Killick
--->Pile

Blake's as single leg friction hitch
Slipped Squares to tie shoes
Round Turn and 2  1/2 as knot and example of security; end Cow, Clove, Anchor, Backhand etc. (as many turns as Round Turn) and add 2 1/2 hitches for security to these too.
a Stopper Knot

Title: Re: Essential Knots?
Post by: absatz on August 05, 2006, 07:19:50 PM
I'd rather start with listing different situations calling for knot tying. Then, for each kind of situation, a few reliable knots could be offered.
Title: Re: Essential Knots?
Post by: Willeke on August 05, 2006, 07:37:19 PM
In my personal 6 are:
-Packaging knot,
-Constrictor,
-Crowning, several versions,
-Sheetbend as used in netting, 2 versions,
-Reefknot with 2 ends slipped, (is the bow for tying my shoes,)
Next will be several fancy knots and braids.
Not the knots I think the man next door needs.

I would teach a few practical knots, like:
Sheetbend, bowline, reefknot, roundturn 2 half hitches,
and follow with a session in which I approach knotting from the people I teach.

One time the girls in scouting, and a few of the boys, did grab the offered session on fancy work.
An other time we had a session of tie the scoutmaster to a chair, showing them they did not understand their knots yet, next lesson they were more observant.

So I think there is not one set of knots for everyone, but a need to tailor to the costumer.

Willeke
Title: Re: Essential Knots?
Post by: KnotNow! on August 07, 2006, 04:35:48 AM
Hello Everyone!
  I like to see this topic revisited every few months, since newbies come and go and the old guard learn and revise our "cut in stone" ideas.  Several years ago I wrote a column for Knot News (IGKT-PAB newsletter) about a friend of mine who was going to ride a BMW motorcycle from England to the pyramids and back.  The trip was planned before USA's problems on 911, but to his credit he went anyway... even though the event changed the countries where he had easy access.  I gave him a handful of knots... mostly binding and lashing and such.  The knots are not important, but the concept of fitting the "essential" to the task is important.  I know motorcycles, desert camping, packing awkward bundles and jury-rigging machines and camp gear.  His knots served him very well.  I live in a very rough camp without indoor plumbing, or anything most consider normal.  Knots and cordage are as essential as on a sail boat but all different.  No day passes without many dozens of cordage applications.  We are "camping out" 24x7x365.  I think I'll try to keep a log of each knot I tie for the next week and log on next Sunday at this post for the result.  Of course if it is a week when we manage to work up some wood for the fire then that will skew the result.  Firewood weeks are the ones with all the sheepshanks anyone could ever want!
Title: Re: Essential Knots?
Post by: Lasse_C on August 07, 2006, 12:41:52 PM
I like to see this topic revisited every few months, since newbies come and go and the old guard learn and revise our "cut in stone" ideas. 
That would be fun!  ;D  From the answers so far, it seems that we should be able to make a list of let´s say a dozen or so knots that would meet most everyday needs. I´m really looking forward to where we end up on this one!

Perhaps I should add that I´m thinking of "working knots" in this topic, not "fancy work" and decorative knots.

Of course if it is a week when we manage to work up some wood for the fire then that will skew the result.  Firewood weeks are the ones with all the sheepshanks anyone could ever want!
??? Because of.... what? I fail to figure out why - possibly because I do not handle firewood very often. (Would like to, though...) Can you explain?

Lasse C
Title: Re: Essential Knots?
Post by: PatDucey on August 07, 2006, 08:10:06 PM
The 8 Boy Scout knots that I learned all those MANY years ago are for general use, and I still feel that these are the basic knots that everyone should know how to tie.  Each knot has an intended purpose, and as Roy stated, it is important to know the proper knot for the task at hand.  Are there better knots for different purposes?  Of course there are!  But these knots have the most universal applications.  Should you take up an activety like mountain climbing, rigging, or sailing a tall ship, you will be expected to learn many more knots.  For the average person who works in the yard, and occasionally helps their kids set up a tent in their bedroom, I have always felt that the Boy Scout 8 are the Essential Knots.

Pat

Bowline:  Placing a loop that will not slip on the end of a line.

Taughtline hitch:  Placing an adjustable loop on the end of a line.

Square Knot (Reef Knot):  Tying a bundle together, or tightening onto a package.  Also can be used to tie two lines of equal size together, but sometimes is not the best knot for this use.

Sheet Bend: Tying two ropes of different sizes together.

Clove Hitch: Used to seize or constrict a bundle.

Sheep Shank: Used to shorten a line without a permanent knot.

Timber Hitch:  Used to pull an axial load, like dragging a log out of the woods.

Two Half Hitches: Used to pull a radial load, like around a rail.
Title: Re: Essential Knots?
Post by: Willeke on August 07, 2006, 08:21:12 PM
I agree mostly with Pat, one remark:
Quote
Square Knot (Reef Knot):  Tying a bundle together, or tightening onto a package.  Also can be used to tie two lines of equal size together, but sometimes is not the best knot for this use.

Sheet Bend: Tying two ropes of different sizes together.

Please never ever teach to use the reef knot (square knot) to tie ropes together.
The sheetbend can be used to tie 2 ropes of the same size too, and is a much better choice.

Willeke
Title: Re: Essential Knots?
Post by: PatDucey on August 08, 2006, 01:00:13 AM
Willeke,

You are correct, the Square Knot is the wrong knot to use where the load on the knot varies, or when life and limb are in peril.  However, as a general purpose knot it is important to know the difference between the Square Knot and the Granny, and when to use it (or not use it).  I would argue thet the Square Knot is probably the most abused knot.   It is popular, easy to tie and untie, and holds reasonably well.  It can also slip or spill into two half hitches, and cause a failure.  That is why I added the caveat that it is not always the best knot to tie two lines together (maybe I should have stated it more firmly).

I still feel that the Square Knot is an Essential Knot for average people to know, along with when to use it, and when to use something different.
Title: Re: Essential Knots?
Post by: squarerigger on August 08, 2006, 01:03:25 AM
Hi Lasse,

The best dozen or so?  That's really limiting, but here goes:


Okay, that's thirteen and I really had to stretch to limit it to that.  No bowline?  You bet!  Wouldn't give it house room as an essential knot, bend, loop, hitch or whatever - essential meaning it must be used because there is nothing better, and there are so many that are better, stronger and more secure......yes? ;D   If you really insist on having a temporary loop at the end of a line, you can't beat the security of a re-threaded figure-of-eight.  Loop in the middle of a line - bowline on a bight may be a suitable alternative if there is safety involved, depending on conditions, because it halves the load on the support line.  Also, I like the tautline hitch when made as a Rigger's Hitch (more secure) 'cause it can be applied to secure a load without letting go.  Okay, add it to the list... ;D
Keep it off the list - that list is too long, but I agree with Willeke that the square (reef) knot should not be on the list of essential knots.  It is not essential, given the other choices.  ;D

Let us hear your own views about this list?

SR


Title: Re: Essential Knots?
Post by: knudeNoggin on August 08, 2006, 01:54:43 AM
Of course if it is a week when we manage to work up some wood for the fire then that will skew the result.  Firewood weeks are the ones with all the sheepshanks anyone could ever want!
??? Because of.... what? I fail to figure out why - possibly because I do not handle firewood very often. (Would like to, though...) Can you explain?
Perhaps KnotNow should let the guessing commence, and feed us a hint
or nudge as it progresses?
Let me start:  maybe for width or platform of wood binding at bottom?

*knudeNoggin*
Title: Re: Essential Knots?
Post by: Dan_Lehman on August 08, 2006, 02:22:15 AM
Quote
...meaning the basic knots you need to know in order to have
a reasonable ability to choose the right knot in most situations.

How many are the “Essential Knots”? Five or six? Ten? Twenty? Thirty?

I'd say, rather than "right knot in most situations",
"to meet most functions for knotting"--since "right knot" gets too focused on
"best" rather than adequacy.  A smaller set results from just the latter standard.

For those not including the SquaREef Knot & Overhand, how do you propose
to tie you shoelaces (Velcro is it?!) or a plastic produce or trash bag (metal
twisty things?)?!  --pretty regular (daily) knotting in those tasks.

The Overhand, if taken broadly, can do a lot:  stopper (and only one able to be
formed snug to its resistance), loopknot (doublling rope then tying Overhand
begets the eye-knot; by deduction, this arguably can lead to the Ring Bend),
and guard to many other knots likely to be insecure w/o--Clove Hitch, Sheet
Bend(s), Tautline(Rolling) Hitch, et al..
I concur in favor for the Bowline.
Two Half-hitches?  --well, that's a Clove noose, and number might be more
than two, or else that Overhand stopper comes in handy.  (So, here we see
that I'm playing a little loose with "knot", in expecting some simple structures
to be able to be combined to benefit.)  A combination of Tautline Hitches can
work on slipperier materials, usually.
Maybe a mutliple overhand knot to secure the slicker stuff, backing up some
other primary knot (thinking of a dog leash of polypropylene, e.g.).

For those admonishing against the SquaREef qua bend, I wonder how many
have actual experiences of its supposed failure, vs. just echoing the admonitions
of books (which might be traceable to some few ancient admonition(s))?  There
are certainly better bends, but ... .  The Sheet Bend & Dbl. Sheet bend, FYI,
have been shown to be insecure at substantial loads in nylon kernmantle
ropes; Jimbo in fact reported these usually coming undone in whatever
stressful loading he has done with them (presumably not losing life or much
of matter--or I hope not!).
The Triple Lapp Bend might be a good one, as it's easily tied (more so than
Sheet or Square), and somewhat forcibly untiable (pull apart bight legs to
prise free some hitching SPart).  --not that I've seen this knot mentioned anywhere,
and the (single) Lapp Bend is a bit demanding of careful dressing & setting!

The Overhand knot also works qua mid-line loopknot, and in this way can
support a Trucker's hitch, half-hitches to finish (or Rolling H.).
--works for tape, too.

------------
As for Roy's Sheepshanks, holy smokes, that's a good one!  I've realized that
one can sometimes make a more comfortable shoulder strap, as it were, with
a Sheepshank trebling the material at that point--but one needs to anticipate
that need with sufficient rope (e.g., some things with a lanyard set for carrying
won't have the surplus material).  I suppose one can even use the knot as a
kind of ratcheting tightener, though such tightening comes w/o any advantage,
and there's a risk of capsizing one side if 2-handing the opposite.
I, like Lasse_C, am curious about this.  --good puzzle, eh?

--dl*
====
Title: Re: Essential Knots?
Post by: KnotNow! on August 08, 2006, 06:35:45 AM
Hi Knudenoggin,
  Maybe this should be a new thread and somehow I get to post sometimes as PABPRES and sometimes as KnotNow! but it is still all Roy.  We live in a temperate rain forest.  Over 100 inches of rain per year.  Seldom goes below 0F and seldom above 90F... most days are very moderate... mid 30'sF in winter, mid 60'sF in summer.  So trees grow as if they had to... reach the sun.. had to.  Alice and I are on 10 acres.  Our old trees are 3 to 4 foot in diameter while the new growth or the slow learners are 3".  This was clear cut (no trees) about 60 years ago so the growth rate is so fast that a 4' diameter tree is only 60 years old.  I could afford to buy into this place as it is on an aluvial flow of a glacier melt stream.  This is to say it is a gravel, boulder mix with silt and sand mixed in for fun.  Trees can't hold on as there is no soil.  So when the wind blows the weakest fall.  Often they are clear of knots and clear of rot and then I use a device on my chain saw to mill them into boards, timbers, planks... usable lumber.  I do this right where they fall and the resultant boards must be pulled out of the bush to be used for building.  This I do by hand or aided by Alice or our SUV (4x4 with 300,000 miles on it).  Some of the windfall (now you know where that phrase came from) is only good for fire wood.  The tops of "lumber trees" are firewood.  The rotted or deformed trees are firewood.  We choose not to make roads or trails  all over the land and choose to leave the woods to grow more mushrooms and ferns as well as "way too much" moss... so we bring the milled boards and firewood out to our use by gentle practices.  Often this is on my back.  Often I hang blocks (pully) from trees along the way for a minature verison of the "highline" logging done up here in the past and present.  I strap the blocks into the tree with a "timber hitch" at the tree and a spliced eye for the hook of the blick or if it is a tail block then just the TH.  I use the TH to put a line on a log (or milled timber or bundle of milled boards).  The main line comes out to my loop "road".  My "road" is a loop around the property... not at the bound line but 100 yards in... so I can reach more wood with less impact.  On the road I'll hand a block as a fair lead and hook to the SUV,  I pull to the next curve.. Alice blows the whistle.  I back up and she puts a "Sheepshank" in the line so I can pull again.  Often where she stands to see the progress of the main line is not at the vehicle or at the load.. hence a midline knot.  At some point I must go drop a highblock from a strap but we can make progress with Alice standing firm and just casting sheepshanks (the worhtless knot).  We use bowlines, clove hitches, pile hitches, ashley stoppers (oystermens stoppers), fig 8 knots, butterfly loops, butterfly bends, carrick bends, constrictors (often as stops on a line).  We also break tackle by accident.  When we are done the wood that has fallen by the grace of God has now been removed from the forest and heats our home (such as it is) or contributes lumber to our future home (such as it may be).  The next year you can't tell we did anything... all moss, ferns, mushrooms and fauna have recovered.  Often you can't tell on the same day.  A long disertation, and I know I didn't catch all the knots we use.  Truckers hitch and several lashings have been omitted, I am sure.  I also compound tackle for hard pulls of big wood.  I often move 24"x34' logs into place to mill just by compound tackle and my back.   I like 30's as I can make two 16's with a slop for waste.  When you mill the best length is a 16.5 so you can still handle the timber when done.  All loops are splices unless noted.  All stopers are bigger than fig 8 as all blocks were for fiber and now used with syenthic so a bigger knot is needed.
  I know this is not about essential knots.. unless you want to know about primative homesteads in the Pacific NorthWest.
  Even on a "normal" day living in a primative camp up here needs knots.. lots of knots.  Blackwall hitches, bell ringers... my gosh... no knots.. no way to stay here.
  Sailors need lots of knots but that isn't the only knotty group.  Trust me.
  Yes, KNUDENOGGIN... I'd welcome you here for the getting of the wood and the heat of the fire (I think that covers two visits?).  If you still have one foot in the current decade then you would be very happy running my chain saw! Bring your ear pluggs and have your insurance paid up to date.  I am an eco freak with a adding machine.  I burn a couple of gallons of petro and heat for a year.  My calculator says that beats most folks.  Of course before I became a great-grand-father (a week ago today) I might have done it all with axe and handsaw.
Title: Re: Essential Knots?
Post by: Dan_Lehman on August 08, 2006, 04:35:41 PM
Quote
Even on a "normal" day living in a primative camp up here needs knots.. lots of knots.
Blackwall hitches, bell ringers... my gosh... no knots.. no way to stay here.
Sailors need lots of knots but that isn't the only knotty group.  Trust me.

Indeed.  In fact, out sailing, what knots are actually tied as part of that, as
opposed to having been previously set (in the sheet, to an anchor, or in the ends
of halyards)?!   --tying to a cleat, yes; what else?  Also on the water are the
commercial fishers, and they've maybe a greater knot-need; but for them, too,
I think most knotting is done pre-engagement.  (Discovery Channels special
on Alaskan crabbers showed them one time putting in Carrick bends in order
to lengthen haul lines to the big (800#!) pots.)  There is occasional mending.

There's a nice continuum, somewhat touching on Absatz's notion of task
constraints/focus, from the (presumed) high woodlands (Roy) down through
ranches/farms (Mike Storch!), and cities (construction/builders), out to the
coastal reaches (maritime).  I think it is that the construction industry is the
biggest cordage consumer (by length, or weight?); but I'd guess that the
greatest usage in percent & variety is ComFishKnotters.

--dl*
====
Title: Re: Essential Knots?
Post by: Amphiprion on August 08, 2006, 07:24:34 PM
As a short haul ( a fews days/nights at a time, no months) backpacker, I have a few knots I use every time I am on the trail.  Interesting to me, that as I have grown in my knowledge, many of my knots have been replaced by others.  I would be curious what others think are important knots for backpackers.
The knots I typically use include:


Constrictor knot - to secure my water bottle and throw it over a branch to hang food stuff at night.
figure eight loop - It's rare for me to use a loop while backpacking, it hasn't come up, but if my tent required line to pitch it or secure it, which many backer packers tents do, I would use this.  (My tent stakes right into grommets on tabs on the tent)
trucker's hitch - any time I need an adjustable length of line, I use this instead of the taut line hitch. 
   I tend to use a round turn and two half hitches, alpine or overhand loop, and two half hitches when making the  trucker's hitch.  A fellow backpacker I know uses the rolling hitch to achieve an adjustable line.
Ian's knot - for shoelaces
Reef knot - to tie bandana around my neck or head.

To go back to the idea of prepared knots before actually going on a trip as mentioned in other posts to go sailing, etc. I use simple lanyards made of paracord, which is the only cord I take with me backpacking, and use:

Lanyard knot to form a decorative loop to hold:  compass, whistle, and lighter.  The use of this is totally me wanting something fancy b/c I can't help myself.  Many light weight backpackers would chastise me for taking up the extra cord and therefore space and weight...I'm talking about guys who strip out the core of the paracord to save on weight.
fisherman's bend to secure lanyard
I've placed Turk's Heads on my walking staff and Moku whipped a leather hand grip on it.
I have recently begun the practice of securing my knife to my person as well.  I use a length of paracord that is hitched to a small carabiner, the carabiner clipped to a belt loop.  The other end of the paracord is hitched to my knife.





Title: Re: Essential Knots?
Post by: KC on August 09, 2006, 01:17:47 PM
Wow, embarrassed i forgot the Butterfly as a midline knot choice/service and another category; dang it!  Good for bending ropes together too; or isolating weak part of line; multiple loops.  i do think that there should also be a mention for one of the midline Bowlines (like a Lehman single); for when the force will be applied predominately from one end to the loop.  Theorizing that a Butterfly should be loaded predomintaley end to end; with lesser or no force in the loop.   Using to shorten line to eye/loop or using more vertically (whereby loading in eye doesn't leverage force on both ends of line to be more than load) than horizontally.

A sheepshank was also an oversight, but would place it more with bowlines as a category.

i think with all the warnings, a Reef/ Square is best applied where it can stabilize itself against 'the load' (from flipping around and undoing self/ testing self at different angles until free).  Also best if in a kind of a loop back to itself (so that part of the loading is on other side/ solid side of loop opposite knot/ so that full force is not on knot).  i consider it kind of a jam of bights to selves, rather than a lock of a knot.  Whereby a SheetBend is an upgrade; takes one leg and makes it the lock of a hitching onto one of the same bights that was offered to Reef.  Another unmentioned, possible upgrade path would be a Surgeon's Knot.

Trucker's Hitch is fairly mentioned too; in that it gets so much mention as a knot.   Though i consider it more of a tightening (3:1)rig of multiplying force; to lift/ compress/ tighten.  Similarily; i've always thought a Parbuckle  as a (2:1)rig; but it too is many times mentioned as a knot.  It is very useful for loading spars; much of list would be shown for expected activity/area; perhaps not every knot in all the categories i list being shown(but those that are/ shown as a group of like lacings each finished a different way for a different use).  i think it's 2:1 action is better than a pulley on the spar, when going up ramp or other rubbings, where a 2:1 pulley would leave the spar dragging; and the parbuckle allows spar to roll/ walk to aid in it's own transportation/ not just drag.

i think a Timber Hitch for pulling inline with spar should be maid into a Killick.  Whereby, the pull of the Standing Part away from spar, should lock opposite side of Timber Hitch into the spar; in a straight line/ not leveraged angle/ hitching meeting the spar perpendicularily.  The preceding half of a Killick reorganizing the forces, to be able to more surely, and straightly pull inline with the spar.  This is why Mr. Ashley made seperate chapters out of hitches that meet a spar perpendicularily vs. inline.  i think all the inline hitchings he shows offer the common charachteristic of these mechanics.

For me, i'd place a Carrick with Backhands; as i make it as a 'muenter to muenter'; but i only work smaller, more flexible lines.  i think the mechanics for correct application and deployment could be better understood as the commonness of the mechancal patterns in a group becomes more evident through this grouping of reptitions that make it easier to remember them in the first place.

Nice List evolving here!
Title: Re: Essential Knots?
Post by: Lasse_C on August 10, 2006, 08:25:32 AM
I agree, KC, it seems to be a nice list evolving here!
I hope to be able to compile a proper list of suggestions, and If I can make it work it would be fun to make a poll and let people vote on which knots they consider "essential". After all, the needs are different! KnotNow apparently has a frequent need for sheepshanks, for example, whereas I during my 35 or so years of knotting have never really needed one yet! (I know it, naturally - if I don´t the day I do need it I might be in trouble!)

I think we will let the suggestions evolve a little further yet...

Lasse C
Title: Re: Essential Knots?
Post by: cbrew6 on August 10, 2006, 07:24:49 PM
never in 40 yrs have i ever used a sheep shank. never had the need for it i guess.   only ones i ever used is   cow hitch, adjustable hitch, clove hitch, half hitch, bowline, constrictor, figure eight, eye splice & back splice and artillery hitch. maybe couple others here an there. but i guess its a short list...  fergot, the carrick bend too
Title: Re: Essential Knots?
Post by: KnotNow! on August 12, 2006, 06:57:58 AM
Hi Cbrew6,
  So odd to see you as a newbie!!  You are anything but!  Good list but of course we still need to talk about the sheepshank.  Good to find you at IGKT as well as KHWW.  The sheephank works everytime when the load and the power to  pull the load are far apart and you don't want to overhaul the whole tackle each time it comes chock-a-block.  It also works when you want to remove slack and reinstate slack as the demand merits.  Both ends remain fixed and you raise or lower the load with the SS as the adjustment.  Of course there are other less seeet ways of doing the same task.  Here is the simplest example.  I have a gate.  When closed the line is slack but attached to the gate and the anchor.   When I swing the gate open both ends of the line are still attached but a SS holds the gate open.   One end is high in the trees and the other end is on the end of the boom forming my gate.  Next example;  We pull trees from the woods.  I drive the SUV while the other end is on the tree.   I drive as far as I can.  I back up and Alice pulls up slack.  With no fancy bends or hitches she casts in a SS and I can pull again until I come to a solid object.  Sure, Alice could put in a new "mid line loop" at the SUV or stand at the log and haul back to herself enough slack and rehitch the timber hitch... now with 100' of excess line.  Just a thought.
Title: Re: Essential Knots?
Post by: oceanplats on August 12, 2006, 01:55:03 PM
whats the purpose of a carrick bend,
Title: Re: Essential Knots?
Post by: aknotter on August 12, 2006, 04:33:53 PM
It's a "bend". Used to "bend" two lines together. I think one of it's better uses
is to join two lines of different size?
Title: Re: Essential Knots?
Post by: Fairlead on August 12, 2006, 04:45:06 PM
The Carrick Bend is use to join HEAVY ropes/hawsers so that the bend will comfortably go round a capstan/winch if necessary.

Gordon
Title: Re: Essential Knots?
Post by: squarerigger on August 12, 2006, 05:40:15 PM
Quote
I think one of it's better uses
is to join two lines of different size?

It is normally used where the lines are of the SAME size, not different sizes.  When put under strain it collapses into a knot without much of a smooth surface.  When used around a capstan, its working ends would be seized to the standing part so that the bend lies flat (more or less).  That's how I have seen it used successfully.  Good animation on a different post here... ;D

SR
Title: Re: Essential Knots?
Post by: Willeke on August 13, 2006, 08:34:38 PM
Usefull varation on the truckers hitch: http://home.hetnet.nl/~splits/knots63/6.htm

Willeke
Title: Re: Essential Knots?
Post by: KnotNow! on August 14, 2006, 04:55:03 AM
Hi SR,
  The working ends opposed and then deliberately colapsed formation is aswsomely strong and the line most often breaks somewhere else or ruptures some hardware.  This is a great knot and this is why the Zep, Hunter, Butterfly et al have to work so hard to stand up.  The refered to bends are younger and may work to the top.  Some are very fast to tie.  Some are easy to remember.  Time will sort out the best.
Title: Re: Essential Knots?
Post by: Tiedupdavid on August 14, 2006, 03:38:02 PM
I think that the essential knots are the knots that we use on a regular basis. Therefore there will only be 10 or less essential knots, I think that a list of essential knots should include:

Alot of people say that the sheepshank is a useful knot but I have never found the need to use it in a damaged piece of rope. I just cut the rope and tie it together with a reef knot. Am I doing the wrong thing?
Title: Re: Essential Knots?
Post by: Willeke on August 14, 2006, 04:55:22 PM
Yes David,
you are doing the wrong thing.
Never use a reefknot to tie two pieces of rope together.
The reefknot is likely to fail, and sometimes with a dissaster as result.
There are many knots, called bends, to use instead.

The sheetbend is the best known, the carrick bend for thick rope, and many more.

Willeke

PS. read reply 13 on page one of this thread to find a use for a sheepshank.
Title: Re: Essential Knots?
Post by: KC on August 29, 2006, 10:06:40 PM
i was tied up Sunday (like a good knottier) in think tank mode (so i missed chat again) making presentation for Girl Scouts.  i guess that is befitting, cuz last year they called me a Soccer Mom!  But it was cool; as the other Soccer Moms were quite a lot of fun to hang with!  i gave the Scouts each a 4' piece of bright red 3/8" line with 1 end taped in brgiht blue and opposite in bright yellow that we all tied knots with as we went along.  Went pretty well.

i put this together for an accompanying handout: Knots to Know 101 (http://www.mytreelessons.com/Knots%20to%20Know.pdf).  Worked and learned some more about drawing knots; with depth of field/ shadowing and also revealing part of line behind spar etc.  i try to show here theories of presenting like lacings and how learning 1 can give you a few; instead of L-earning each one as a seperate mountain to conquer.

Pix looked better on paper and especially in flash that i drew them with; than this .pdf format.  i used Flash; cuz still dream about beating problems of animating knots with these types of colors and shadowing.  The new version of Flash lends itself more to this target.  Each line is drawn then copied and edited 4x to get the colors and shadowing.  The shadowing is harder to do on the white background for printing.  When i do it online in Flash, will use black background and shadow everything; but shadows will only show when on top of something automatically; and not when on the black background!  So, i guess i've figured out part of it!

Any hints on art strategies etc. appreciated.  Some day i'm gonna get this stuff write!

-KC
aka TheTreeSpyder
Title: Re: Essential Knots?
Post by: Dan_Lehman on August 30, 2006, 04:48:54 AM
I drive as far as I can.  I back up and Alice pulls up slack.  With no fancy bends or hitches she casts in a SS and I can pull again ... .
Sure, Alice could put in a new "mid line loop" at the SUV or stand at the log and haul back to herself enough slack and rehitch the
timber hitch... now with 100' of excess line.  Just a thought.
Hmmm, but I'm trying to picture what sort of Sheepshank it is that Alice fixes with
ONE HUNDRED FEET of line !! ?? :o   --is it relatively short and stocky (many back'n'forths),
or a lonnnnnnnnnnng trad. structure which would make about 50' long (and which would be
a problem for that going-through-the-redirection-block you described?  And this recurs (with
even more total slack)?  If she's at the log, there could be an eye-knot at that point from the log
to which the rest of the haul line was tied with a becket hitch, which could be released and
quickly retied, the growing slack joining the log in being hauled each time!?  Otherwise, at
the SUV end, I'd think a new hitch would be cast, excess rope making a growing pile inside.
(Or, at either end, maybe one of those Flying/Tugboat Bowlines would come in handy, using
a toggle in an eye-to-eye joint at the log vice Becket Hitch.)

 :)
Title: Re: Essential Knots?
Post by: drjbrennan on September 02, 2006, 07:45:24 PM
This week I have mostly been using,

Bowline- pulling tree roots out
Timber hitch- on big lumps of concrete
Constrictor- on bin bags
Packers knot- on piles of books
Zeppelin bend- on my keys
Simple Simon over- joining ropes to pull out concrete
Portuguese sennit- making bracelet
Stevedores knot- on conkers
Jug sling- on my water bottle
Marlinespike hitch- on thin cord.

I nearly had to go look up the Icicle hitch, for pulling up tree roots, but the constrictor did the job.
Title: Re: Essential Knots?
Post by: walrus on September 16, 2006, 09:34:16 PM
Ey up!.

You know what , people....its a refreshing change to see that someone takes care to maintain an interest in the essentials......for years I believed it was just meholding on to daft notions of what I learned in pre-sea school....

I reckon I,ve got to the stage, where I am just beginning to recognise the fact that , "I had forgotten that I,d already forgotten"
But, on topic, it still amazes me to get aboard some ship and find that your deckies are completely lost at basic rope skills.  Sadly, it seems often like, if theres no loadbinder , webstrap or Tirfor (comealong) at hand, then theyre sunk;  heaving lines fall off; no-one can rig stages or bosuns chairs; and forget all about old time gangway rigging. Management ops manuals and working practises criteria, have kicked into touch any ideas or ever using a extempore rig, for lifting anything!

These people are not stupid, they just aint been trained in seamans ways, by seamen. Please dont take that as a blanket condemnation of nautical education, its not meant to be ( and I once,briefly,  used to be a Nautical Science teacher.)

The most commonly seen examples of ropeskill, would seem to involve enormous amounts of round turns , a single half-hitch and a very large dollop of that ,awfully invasive , duct tape.  My old seamanship teacher would turn in his grave.

I do what I can , to fetch ,em up to scratch.....mostly by leaving a few examples laying around and, sure enough, they,ll always get around to asking....and then doing.   And, in short order, theres an email from the owners, kicking up stink about the invoices for all this new rope!   Happy days.

I would be very happy, that the lads could  set, bowline, sheetbent, clove, rt and two halfs, constrictor.

Rant over,people,  you have the floor.

Sithee!

Walrus
Title: Re: Essential Knots?
Post by: KnotNow! on September 17, 2006, 09:37:00 AM
Sorry Dan, Alice can stand in one spot and haul the bight to be tucked.. pullling most to the slack. She can then take a pace or two and haul in some feet or if needs be some hundreds of feet and take another half hitch...  why would the bight need to have the hitch at the bight end?  It isn't rocket science.. we do this all the time.  She can do this to keep me from driving over the slack and still never messabout with either end.   Ain't kilt her yet.  Who said the bight needed to be half hitched at or near the tip of the bight?  We do this poop all the time. She shuffles to the left, she shuffles to the right. but we don't call it "balling the jack".  The whole idea is to keep me from driving over the slack or running over my sweet Alice.... and you know what a messs that makes?  Please,  just know that we do this task with this knot and that if you can not see it then please visit us and haul in some wood (we need the help).  Golly, you think I need to lie about my day to day life?  So the sheepshank has no use and you can "haul away Dan".  Well I won't go there as I have so much respect for you and your posts and mail.  I'll tell you what:  Get your car.  Get a log.  Get your life mate.  Put garbage cans or old buckets to limit the car travel.  Haul away to the posted barrier and  then stop.  Back up and have the "mate" take up slack (if you want to teach Alice a second knot you are at great risk) and "haul away Dan".  Then back up and have the mate overhaul the line (sheepshank or other) and you can haul away again.  I poop you not, this is what we do.  Now, you and I can do this faster and with less effort... but this is my Alice and if you have taught your significant other 10 other knots then God bless you.  Sorry to have made a fuss but this is how we move wood (and many other things).  You should see me on the roof, Alice at the belay and me on the Spanish Bowline.  Walk in my clogs and then ask me..
Title: Re: Essential Knots?
Post by: squarerigger on September 17, 2006, 05:59:04 PM
Hi Walrus,

You are absolutely right about the sailors!  The sailors I have trained know to use the right knot in the right place, but when I travel on other people's vessels - boy, howdy!  The skipper's response is usually "I haven't found a use for more than one knot - a bowline - I can do anything with it" to which comment I usually throw all kinds of knots all over the ship (stopped clove hitch, buntline hitch, RT + 2HH, cleat hitch, pile hitch, constrictor, bowline on a bight, jug sling, rosendahl bend, fisherman's knot, anchor bend, rolling hitch, etc.) and wait for his crew to ask him how come it works so much better Lindsey's way?  Passive aggressive response I guess... ::)

Lindsey
PS - Dan - how is that list for sailors to use ;D?  I use more but not on every trip...
Title: Re: Essential Knots?
Post by: Dan_Lehman on September 19, 2006, 01:37:07 AM
Sorry Dan, Alice can stand in one spot and haul the bight to be tucked.. pullling most to the slack.
She can then take a pace or two and haul in some feet or if needs be some hundreds of feet and
take another half hitch...  why would the bight need to have the hitch at the bight end?
The bight doesn't need to have the hitch at the end when finished, but as the ends
of the rope aren't available the hitch must pass around the bight end en route to
wherever it ends up--and I don't see how this is efficiently done?!  --and with so
much rope to haul through that hitch.  Perhaps you can explain?

Quote
Please,  just know that we do this task with this knot and that if
you can not see it then please visit us and haul in some wood
While that would be fun, no doubt, and helpful (once I got *trained*),
it's an expensive (time, effort, $) way to learning a knot use.
Quote
Golly, you think I need to lie about my day to day life?
No, but my imagination and some fiddling with rope has helped me only
so far to figure out how Alice gets on making a Sheepshank under the
circumstances you lay out.  Really, who reading this can figure how to
quickly haul so much rope and then cast a Sheepshank in it such that
most of the remaining in-tension (upon hauling) line is available (i.e.,
so that the half-hitches/turns of the Sheepshank are close together,
with hugely long bight ends (or one long/short).  You'd have to be hauling
the bight through one hitch to begin, then maybe cast the hauling side's
hitch over a small bight remaining.  I just don't see how this works well.
(And suggest that the silence from others is because they're not taking
such an interest in this item.)

One could hitch bights of the slack bight (there would thus be double
bight-ends hitched--2 loops nipped), and make interlocked loops
with a Sheepshank form; but there is a simpler way ... .

Rather, the most efficient method I'd say is to haul away w/o concern
for any knot, then form a bight in the log side and tie a Lapp Bend
with the hauling side--which makes it a Slipped Lapp Bend.  This not only
is perhaps optimally time-material-/effort-efficient, but unties quickly
by pulling on both ends.  (There are other similar forms one can make
with a turn or few extra; and the Sheet Bend w/bight could similarly
be formed, doubling either half of that knot (bight or hitch part).)
(NB:  The Lapp Bend release more easily than the similar becket hitch
one might tie if first making an eye in the to-the-log side.)

--dl*
====
[ed. to replace "Eskimo Bwl" with "Lapp Bend", & clarify "NB"]
Title: Re: Essential Knots?
Post by: squarerigger on September 19, 2006, 05:32:43 PM
Hi Dan,

Try to think of this as pulling in three times the length of what you make into a sheepshank?  If Roy travels ten feet forward and then backs up by ten feet, the log has moved ten feet forward.  Alice makes a S/S three feet long with her line passed to (Roy) and fro (Alice) making two bighted pieces, the extra one foot taken up in the hitches slipped over each end.  Roy drives forward another ten feet and backs up again.  Now the log has moved twenty feet.  Now Alice has twenty feet of line to make into a six foot S/S.  The one part of this that I like is that it is easy to make and break.  There are obviously not that many straight line distances involved in forestry, otherwise a straight pull would be all it would take.  Why, with the unloaded part of the S/S you could even just pull that out each time and not have to re-make the half hitches!  And so it goes... ;D

Lindsey
Title: Re: Essential Knots?
Post by: KnotNow! on September 19, 2006, 08:40:22 PM
Hi Lindsey;
  You can come haul wood with us any day!  Yes!  Now we all have a documented use for the SS.  A day of woods work and anyone can see why most logging and woods work in the Pacific North West is "clear cut" and some form of "high line" for the removal.  What Alice and I do is "selective cutting" so standing trees are in the way for every job.  Dead or deformed trees are what we are taking.  Cheers ;D
Title: Re: Essential Knots?
Post by: Dan_Lehman on September 19, 2006, 09:02:23 PM
Lindsey, you might want to try drawing a simple model to illustrate what
you are saying--and you'll quickly see (I hope) that it doesn't make sense!

1) Truck & log are initially well removed (the "hundred feet" bit), so there's
 not any back'n'forth between driver & log tender that's at all efficient.

2) The Sheepshank, as remarked by Roy, doesn't assume the full length
implied by the hauled slack--else it would quickly run afoul of the re-directing
block Roy mentioned in one msg. (a long structure's leading end too soon
abutting the block); also, though the Sheepshank has a triple-line *center*,
10' of slack in a regular S. tranlates to a FIVE-foot long structure, not 3'
(picture the 10' as a bight perpendicular to the newly hauled-straight line;
this 5'-long bight then flops forward to get it's leading tip hitched, and that's
a 5'-long structure, thus).  (In terms of a hundred feet, we can ignore the
minor amount consumed in the half-hitch nip.)

3)
Quote
The one part of this I like is that it is easy to make ...
NOT SO FAST:
you've misrepresented the making; I don't see it so easy at all, though it's
not a bear, still, you have a pile of say 80' feet of, what, 5/8" log-hauling line
(it's definitely not clothesline, and maybe thicker than this--Roy?), and you
have to put half-hitches over something, and you want to then reduce the
span between those Sheepshank ending hitches to a minimum so as to
have maximum haul distance (at at least the final haul, anyway--earlier
ones might be limited by the drive length so it wouldn't matter).  In any
case, Alice isn't supposed to be jogging 50' with the rope to make the
other end of the structure, but does it all in place.

4)
Quote
With the unloaded part of the S/S you could even just pull that out
each time and not have to re-make the half-hitches!
Here, again, I suggest you actually try to do what you write is possible!
The entire S/s is loaded or not, and if one hauls in more slack, one must
undo the leading (truck-side) hitch--that will be hauled down immediately.
(And if the other hitch is in place, then the hauling will be through that
hitch, which doesn't seem so efficient.  But, then, yeah, one could haul
away through the log-side hitch the next amount of slack (making a long
bight end beyond), and then re-cast the leading hitch over the mostly
unaffected leading bight.

5) I assume that when Roy is in back-up mode, Alice needs to be pretty
smartly hauling away--and so not carefully pulling rope through a hitch
as a partial formation of the structure!?
.:.  Just picture yourself with the log end and hauling end of the line
and a big pile of slack, and how you make that into a Sheepshank:
I don't see this as other than a not-so-easy task, other than by the
bight-of-bights tactic I mentioned.  (But it IS easy to, with any amount
of slack--as it's irrelevant as long as there's just a little to finish the knot--
to tie a slipped Lapp Bend, most efficiently!  And I find that both more
secure (stable!) in tension & out, and quicker to tie/untie.

--dl*
====
Title: Re: Essential Knots?
Post by: Willeke on September 19, 2006, 09:09:18 PM
Dan,
I think it is time to say that this is the way that works best for Roy and Alice. It might not be the best way, it might not be the way you would use. But it is the way they work and that is reported and recorded now.

You can insist there is a better way, but if Alice and Roy are pleased with the way they work now, why even try to change their working system.

Willeke
Title: Re: Essential Knots?
Post by: squarerigger on September 20, 2006, 04:26:01 AM
Hi Dan,

Yay what Willeke said!  Here is a scan of a simple drawing - you may be right about blocks, but the principle is the same, whether or not the line goes arouind a corner.  As Willeke said, if it works for Roy, why knock it?
(http://)
Lindsey
Title: Re: Essential Knots?
Post by: Dan_Lehman on September 20, 2006, 07:10:23 AM
Dan,
I think it is time to say that this is the way that works best for Roy and Alice
Well, really, Willeke, what do you mean "it is time"?  There hasn't been a answer to exactly
how the Sheepshank with massive line comes to be formed; are you against education?
And that points to "... the way"--what I'm seeking to learn.  Has anyonElse actually tried
to make a Sheepshank with a pile of line, and such that the Half-hitch nips are close
together?!  Lindsey has offered some descriptions that don't wash, so I don't see a
successful effort there.

Consider Lindsey's assertion "Why, with the unloaded part of the S/S you could even
just pull that out each time and not have to re-make the half hitches!":  that makes
absolutely no sense to me; how about to others?  The line to be hauled--from the
backing-up vehicle, i.e.--runs into that side's HH and then the continuation from
the HH runs into the opp. HH (log side) to be nipped:  how can one not re-make (undo)
this HH and yet haul line?

There is no need to be defensive on a quest for information; if my understanding is
wrong then please simply show me where/how, but don't throw in the towel based
on some sort of msg.-quota (Ooops, 10th msg. on topic, move along, please!).
I've not merely said something like "I don't agree" and left it at that; I've tried quite
carefully to illustrate my understanding in hopes of clarification, and have given
my criticisms with detail so others have something to work with.

Quote
But it is the way they work and that is reported and recorded now.
And can you duplicate their action by the report so far?  (You've just hauled 50' of
line out of a backing-up vehicle's way, casting it to your side; now, make a S/s--
where to you cast that first Half-hitch, please?  And then the 2nd?)

Quote
if Alice and Roy are pleased with the way they work now,
 why even try to change their working system.
That should be an easy question to answer!  Isn't part of the point of this
forum to share ideas and learn, maybe getting improvements to methods &
structures?  Shouldn't I care enough to offer something that is a Better Mousetrap?

Quote
Here is a scan of a simple drawing
Unfortunately, not for me--rather, "An appropriate representation of the requested
resource /sm/index.php could not be found on this server." results.

But, maybe I've come to see it:  the lots-of-line S/s has one of its three
parallel parts WAY long & slack--the hundred feet part?  In this case, I think
it is even beneficial re stability for the Half-hitch nips to be close together,
even abutting, as the leg from each bight that leads into the 100' slack part
will go away from the HH such as to turn it towards capsizing.  So, one folds
one side into a bight, casts a HH with the opp. side around it, then forms
a bight in this opp. side's continuing end to be nipped by a HH from the first side,
with no concern of pulling the three parallel parts out taut within the structure.
Is that it?

But that is still more tying relative to forming a (log-side) bight and
bringing the opp. side (hauled-in) line around to tuck a bight through the
1st bight's tip to form a Lapp Bend, yes?  --about half the maneuvering.
Give Alice a chance on this, okay.  Poor gal, how'd she get snookered
out of driving the truck, anyway?   ::)

--dl*
====
Title: Re: Essential Knots?
Post by: KnotNow! on September 20, 2006, 08:21:10 AM
Hi Dan and All,
  How did Alice get snookered into living in a rain forest in the first place?
  I'll be happy to have the thread die for the while... and next time we pull some wood I'll take photos and you'll can decide from that.  Of course most of my neighbors have wood in the shed and mine is still on the stump.  I'll also say that most of them are not trying to keep the land parklike and pull only the culls.  Not one of them can tie any knots except for shoes.  It is much similar to the web.  Cut and use what you can.  Be a good steward of the site.  Or just go for the "clear cut".
   Dan, I have such respect for you and the work you have sent me via snail, your posts and contributions to the snail KN and KM and I just think that on this topic... I'll send you some string knotted as we do or something....  Let us drop the thread for a time.  I use a SS.  I use it in several aplications.  I don't own a boat.  The SS has aplications outside of my camp or it would not have survived.   Good night to all and to all a good night.
Title: Re: Essential Knots?
Post by: Willeke on September 20, 2006, 04:50:49 PM
No comment!

Willeke
Title: Re: Essential Knots?
Post by: Dan_Lehman on September 23, 2006, 04:14:03 AM
It occurs to me that another in-the-bight knot that could be used to put slack
aside was shown or suggested by Znex in "The Wave Loop" thread--to wit:

(http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/6083/carrickbend06kq8.jpg)

With the lower end of the black line say going to the log, and the lower right
to the truck, the upper ends would be part of the slack bight of rope hauled
in.  Loading the structure having sufficient looseness will yield the typical
Carrick bend with some extra parts (essentially a twin-eyed mid-line loopknot).

Hi Dan and All,
  How did Alice get snookered into living in a rain forest in the first place?
--that's a knot of another nature of your handicraft!  >>  :-*  <<  (:

Quote
I'll be happy to have the thread die for the while... and next time we pull some wood I'll take photos
 and you'll can decide from that.   ...     Dan, I have such respect for you and the work you have sent me
 via snail, your posts and contributions to the snail KN and KM and I just think that on this topic...
I'll send you some string knotted as we do or something....  Let us drop the thread for a time.  I use a SS.
I'm not happy with how this discussion is going:  we have language and the means
to communicate with it, and even a well-thumbed common reference at hand; why
not put that all to use?  Somehow I'm being much misread or unread, over such a simple
and should-be-expected circumstance of asking for instruction in tying a knot--HERE, IGKT Forum!!

Now, firstly, I am NOT accusing you of lying (!!); I believe that you employ the S/s--check.
But my acquaintance with this knotted structure leaves me puzzled as to HOW one
employs it to serve that task you describe; i.p., I cannot conceive of an obvious way
to tie a S/s in a large amount (50-100'?) of (thick--3/4"?  you didn't say) rope, very
expediently. ???

You've guided me to seeing that taking a large amount of rope into a S/s need not
have a large span (roughly half the amount) between HHs--rather, the hitch parts can
be close, and large slack in bights.  Okay; Ashley's #2432 sort of shows this.

But to TIE such an S/s, the hitches must get around the bights whose length is then
pulled through--doesn't seem so quick/easy.  I know of Ashley's tying methods
in #1152 (working at each bight end with a hitch) & #1162 (making a sort of Clove &
a Half (3 HHs) and then pulling the sides of the center loop out through the side
ones); neither seems an easy task with a lot of rope.  (In the 1162 method, the center
loop would be huge with the slack, and although one could pull through just a little of
it as nipped bights, with only 1 leg of these bights being tensioned, the S/s would be
prone to capsizing & spilling--have seen this at least with some rope in hand.  One
could pull in bights from each side and then take make 2nd bights with the unnipped
legs into the opp. hitches and get stability--but this is an obese S/s!)

So, I'm not sure what a photo could show me.  If it's the tied knot, can't that as well
be indicated by reference to Ashley images?  --"just like #nnnn, but with ..." or something?
It really shouldn't take many words to say how it's tied--more than another's "no comment",
of course, but that wasn't discussion.  Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

AND, in the spirit of exchange, have you given the quickly tied (Slipped) Lapp Bend a go?
--can't see how that can be beat, unless somehow it can jam in your particular stuff
I tried it in 8mm old marine cord that was proving pretty frictive and uncooperative
when it came to untying simple things, and put my body weight and some bouncing
on it; it untied nicely, by pulling on the two ends.

Cheers, and may the snow hold off a while longer--enjoy autumn a while
(even in our right-side/eastern mountains, we'll likely get colors circa
last week of October, first of November (elevations <2000', mostly, but
for Blue Ridge (up to 3400'))!

 :)
Title: Re: Essential Knots?
Post by: bridog on September 28, 2006, 11:21:00 PM
I suppose I can put forth my interpretation regarding the sheepshank situation as so described, and either cause more confusion or clarification...

The way I see it, KnotNow! isn't starting with a thousand foot slack in the lines, but rather is starting with the line fairly close to the length of the haul.  This of course is easy to arrange as he's apparently the one either laying in at the timber hitch end or at the tow point, and he can throw down a knot in a bight that still gets the job done without having to teach the assistant any further knots.

Starting thusly with a mostly free-of-slack line, on a ten foot pull you're only getting ten feet of slack, and then it's easy to throw in the half hitches over the bights because the separation between bight ends isn't that great.  Conveniently, for most hauling line, the next ten foot drag should put the rope in enough tension that when it is slacked, the sheepshank won't fall apart.

If the hitches are thusly close together, all the slack is pulled in on the hitch, and you're not going to accidentally pass the hitch over the bights as you pull in the slack --- in fact, as the `ears' get longer, and you have more spare line laying on the ground, it seems like you're less likely to make a mistake since the hitch is trapped there and can't possibly pass the bight --- so you take in all the slack on one side, reach over, and pass that slack out to the bight.  On the next cycle, pull the slack in through the other hitch, and then pass it out to the other bight.

You could keep the spare line balanced, if desired, in this way, but then you'd have a great length to pull through to undo the hitches.  If you keep the `ears' to a reasonable length, however, and can pretty much guarantee no foul play of the hitches-in-slack with the bight ends, then you could pass the slack all to one side if you wish.  If you did that, you could arrange it so the longer bight is closer to the short end of the rope (at the end of the pull); the hitch near the short bight will be easy to cast off, and once you have that it's ten feet or less to the end of the rope, and that allows you to remove the hitch from the long end.

Title: Re: Essential Knots?
Post by: DerekSmith on September 30, 2006, 05:21:52 PM
Hi Dan and All,
  How did Alice get snookered into living in a rain forest in the first place?
  I'll be happy to have the thread die for the while... and next time we pull some wood I'll take photos and you'll can decide from that.  Of course most of my neighbors have wood in the shed and mine is still on the stump.  I'll also say that most of them are not trying to keep the land parklike and pull only the culls.  Not one of them can tie any knots except for shoes.  It is much similar to the web.  Cut and use what you can.  Be a good steward of the site.  Or just go for the "clear cut".
   Dan, I have such respect for you and the work you have sent me via snail, your posts and contributions to the snail KN and KM and I just think that on this topic... I'll send you some string knotted as we do or something....  Let us drop the thread for a time.  I use a SS.  I use it in several aplications.  I don't own a boat.  The SS has aplications outside of my camp or it would not have survived.   Good night to all and to all a good night.

With all due respect to Roy and Alice, they do what they do and are happy with it and it is not for us to think we can or should tell them how to run their lives.

However, the thought of hauling lumber with a long rope and an SUV and one 'mate', is an alluring challenge.  "If I Were Alice"

If "I were Alice", how would I approach the problem of taking up that slack but with the least amount of work?  So there's the challenge - If you were Alice how would you do it?  What combination of knots and ropecraft would you use ?
Title: Re: Essential Knots?
Post by: DerekSmith on September 30, 2006, 05:47:43 PM
My first crack at "If I Were Alice"

If I were Alice, I would wait for the SUV to back up the first time and then pull a bight of towline round the tow hitch.  If the driver had backed up 10ft, then I should be able to pull a bight of line ca 5ft long alongside the main tow line.  I would then grab the main line ca 6 inches back from the end of the bight, twist it and slip the loop over the bight to form a half hitch.  I would then steady the hitch while the driver took up slack, then walk back  with the SUV as its tows the log another 10ft.  When the driver relaxes the tension, I would flick off the half hitch and as the driver reversed, I would pull the bight to take up the new slack, walking back 5 ft as the SUV reversed 10 ft.  Then I would throw on a new half hitch and steady the line while the driver takes up slack again - and so the process goes.

As the log is towed out I would be slowly walking towards the log and the rope from SUV to log would  eventually have all been trippled.  I would have walked the 30 ft to the log and the log will have moved 60 ft towards me.  Then I guess it is a case of chuck 60ft of rope into the back of the SUV, tie on again for a 10ft pull, then repeat the bight technique until the log was only 10ft from the SUV for the last pull.

Job Jobbed.
Derek
Title: Re: Essential Knots?
Post by: DerekSmith on September 30, 2006, 06:00:05 PM
"If I were Alice",

I would find a tree handily close to the SUV with a stump of a branch at a handy working height, or the trunk of a small tree.  The rope from the log would be fed around the tow hitch and to the branch or the tree.  I would wrap the line three or four times around the branch (small tree) and stand on the end.  When the SUV then drove 10ft forward, the log would be hauled forward 20ft due to the pulley affect of the line going round the tow hitch.

The driver backs up and I pull in the 20ft of line, then take a new set of turns around the branch (tree) and again stand on the end while the SUV makes another 10ft pull (20ft of tree pull).  The tree has now moved 40 ft forward and I haven't walked an inch.  Three more reverses and taking in the slack, then rebracing and - Job Jobbed.

Derek
Title: Re: Essential Knots?
Post by: Dan_Lehman on October 03, 2006, 02:31:50 AM
With all due respect to Roy and Alice, they do what they do and are happy with it and it is not for us to think we can or should tell them how to run their lives.

And by what perverted reading did you come to think anyone was?
It really annoys me how a simple quest for information has been
so strained & difficult!  No one yet has put forward an explanation
of how the S/s can be comfortably employed as described, and yet
all are happy to turn away as though they understand (or don't care to)!
E.g., Lindsey's sketched understanding's "etc. etc." neglects both that
the tying isn't so simple or stationary as implied by Roy, and that his
plan quickly runs out of space with its enlarging S/s.

And now YOU come with ...

Quote from: DerekSmith link=topic=452.msg3949#msg3949date=1159634863
If I were Alice, I would wait for the SUV to back up the first time and then pull a bight of towline round the tow hitch.

Here you inject a new condition on the situation:  a special nature
to the truck-hitch point such that a bight can be pulled around it.

Quote
If the driver had backed up 10ft, then I should be able to pull a bight of line ca 5ft long alongside the main tow line.

I'm with you on the amount of bight, but in the case of hauling perpendicular by use
of a re-direction block (road is perp. to line of tension to the harvested log), you here
require some extra consumption of the limited drive distance to be able to extend the
bight along the line (else you must go around the block and down towards log).  Also,
it is best that the slack is pulled AS the truck retreats, to prevent it from being overridden.

Quote
  I would then ... slip the loop over the bight to form a half hitch.

So, like one end of a sheepshank.

Quote
  I would then... walk back with the SUV as its tows the log another 10ft.  When the driver relaxes the tension,
I would flick off the half hitch and as the driver reversed, I would pull the bight to take up the new slack,
walking back 5 ft as the SUV reversed 10 ft.  Then I would throw on a new half hitch ...

Huh?!  This is quite a "throw", as the bight lengthens by half the retreat of the truck,
so if it backs up 10' and you only 5', you are at the TRUCK end, and the bight end
(if pulled away) will be 10' away from there.  (On first bight forming etc., you have a
tripled section (tensioned line + bight legs) 5' long = 15' total; you pull another 10',
and now there is 25' to account for, and backing up 10' of truck comes back to that
5' point (where bight added 2x5') and now 5' of haul line has 20' slack which is 10'
of bight, and you stand at the 5' mark with backed up truck, so bight end can be 10'
away!)

Quote
while the driver takes up slack again - and so the process goes.

Also, you are expanding the area consumed in absorbing the slack, and thus
converging on having no room to make an additional pull with the truck.  The
slack lengthens at half the retreat of the truck, and this puts its end ever
farther from the truck hitch.  And so, this approach is limited in terms of the
proportion of distance the truck can drive vis-a-vis the reach to the log.

Quote
I would have walked ... Job Jobbed.

Yes, increased walking, diminished hauling:  "job jobbed' means "aggravated"?
I think some re-thinking is needed here.

Another proposal above, that of tying/re-tying a Lapp bend at the point of the
redirection of the haul line (say), runs into one initial problem:  after the first
pull, say, 26', the bight end is now half that span (13') away from the tyer, who
must retrieve it somehow lest the line be driven over by the retreating truck.
But after this initial situation, the slack will be long enough to reach to the
redirection/tyer's point, and subsequent tying is made easily, and additional
slack can simply accumulate beside this point, piled as it is retrieved
as the truck backs up, being pulled out of its way; the knot is made with
short tensioned ends leading to the block and to the truck and the knot's
ends are united in the indefinite length of slack.

--dl*
====

ps:  The msg.s re this "rope problem" should be collected and moved to an
appropriately titled thread, leaving "Essential Knots" to continue to collect
remarks as to what knots ... , vs. the details of some particular knot etc..
Title: Re: Essential Knots?
Post by: squarerigger on October 03, 2006, 03:29:21 AM
Oh, for the love of Alice Roy - TEACH ALICE TO TIE A LAPP BEND or we'll never hear the end of this!  As the old saying goes "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" - probably not the right thing to hear but this has gone on long enough!  Dan does seem to think it's broke, so just tell him he's right and we'll all be happy - well, maybe not Alice or you or anyone else convinced that a S/s will work for someone who requires no further training, having learned how to do this one adequately and who gets it right this way every time.  Yes, Dan, the S/s does require that she pull the line back with the truck each time (unless Roy is such a good driver that he does not run over his own towed line - I've seen him drive and he doesn't need further training) which is still a good idea anyway.  The S/s also does not require effort on his or Alice's part to learn a new knot, even if it would work better.  The mouse has already taken the cheese and been caught, so why worry baiting the trap with candy?  I will give Dan his due - the Lapp Bend IS easier to make, once having learned it.  It is also easy to mess up, if the line starts to twist on you or you put the hauling line under the loop instead of over it, or if the line is caked with mud or you just can't pull the bight through fully, but still, it is more efficient and so should be accepted by all, right?  After all, did not Ashley himself declare "Either it's right or it's not" or something like that.  Yes, all the things I said can go wrong with the LB can also go wrong with the S/s, the difference being that Alice knows the S/s and knows what needs fixing!  Well, I have probably gotten someone else hot under the collar by now so I'll back off just a tad and see what fallout I receive this time. ???

Lindsey
Title: Re: Essential Knots?
Post by: KnotNow! on October 03, 2006, 04:14:20 AM
Hi Lindsey,
  I guess I don't know the Lapp Bend.  I may search for it, or not.  As I said, posts back, when you (Lindsey) knew exactly how we haul wood... welcome to our camp anytime.  Now Alice has two broken ribs from flying off the porch.  So now I need a knot for the "one man team".  But of course I'll find it.  Alice has taken a fall off the porch and has some fractured ribs.  Wood still needs to be gathered.  I was going to jpg the gathering of wood  as we did it with the SS but with Alice and her ribs there will be no SS in our camp.
   Folks are on a ten foot visualization.  I have 10 acres.  43,560 squre feet per acre.  You have seen a clear cut or a harvest burn?  So my cutting by hand and my picking of one tree at a time may not seem like a big deal to you, or not.
Title: Re: Essential Knots?
Post by: squarerigger on October 03, 2006, 04:49:24 AM
Hey Roy,

I am very sorry to hear of Alice having fallen and please know I was NOT serious about teaching her the Lapp Bend - I feel sure there are plenty who can teach it out there - it seems to me nothing more nor less than a modification of the Sheet Bend passing over the line and tucking down into the bight with a slippery loop instead - Budworth uses a loop of a Perfection loop but I suspect that an eye splice will do the job just as well on the tree end of the line.  I started the ten foot number to have something easy to work with in numbers - not a serious consideration, given the size of your space.  Yes, I have seen a clear cut and yes, I know what it takes to move stuff, so I appreciate all that you have patiently responded with on this question.  I know that you use the knot and I know that it works for you and Alice.  Please give her my regards and say hello - I wish her well and a speedy recovery which I know you will be helping along with care and perhaps cups of tea.  Good luck with your solo efforts - be careful out there!  Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!

Lindsey
Title: Re: Essential Knots?
Post by: KnotNow! on October 03, 2006, 05:16:41 AM
Hi Lindsey and all,
  Alice wil just have to heal up in her own good time.  Ain't that the bitch.  I am so sorry that the SS got so out of shape.  Lindsey gets "it" as one can keep one's feet and keep looping bights back and forward and casting a half hitch over thre loops ends ad infiinum item.  Until infinity.  Alice (bless her soul) need not shift a foot, but to gather slack and cast on half hitches.   I'll post a photo on this and then let it rest.  Sorry to have raised a post that is so complex but so happy to have raised a post that is so simple.  Pass 1000 bights from left to right in front of you.  Cast a half hitch about the left bights and a half hitch abouit the right bights and you have a SS with 1000 bights, each which can be as much as youy are willing to pass before you.  Could be 10,000 foot per bight.  You don't need to move your feet.
  Lidsey, when you coming up to work some wood?
Title: Re: Essential Knots?
Post by: bridog on October 03, 2006, 08:02:21 AM
ABOK #1161 which makes perfect sense but was not what I envisioned whatsoever.  That was much clearer this time.  Thanks KnotNow!
Title: Re: Essential Knots?
Post by: DerekSmith on October 03, 2006, 01:14:08 PM
snip...
And now YOU come with ...

Yup ... and here I come along with...   and don't you just hate it when some little frustration comes along and takes the thread off at a tangent?

Still, I guess that I am just one of those little annoyances you will have to tolerate for a while ;)

Derek
Title: Re: Essential Knots?
Post by: DerekSmith on October 03, 2006, 01:32:46 PM
Quote from: DerekSmith link=topic=452.msg3949#msg3949date=1159634863
If I were Alice, I would wait for the SUV to back up the first time and then pull a bight of towline round the tow hitch.

Here you inject a new condition on the situation:  a special nature
to the truck-hitch point such that a bight can be pulled around it.

Yup...  Here I inject a new condition on the situation  --  but that is the nature of the challenge I am proposing. - One truck, one rope, one mate and a big bad lump of tree and only a few feet to move in --  How would you do it?  It is not just about what knot you would use but HOW would you do it?  Knots by themselves are simply curves in cord.  A knot is really only a Knot when it is at work, and to put knots to work you need to consider the application and the circumstances.  Just teaching people to tie knots is meaningless unless we can promote ingenuity in their use and along with this - hand in hand - goes rope craft.

Challenges such as "If I were Alice" should help us realise that knowing 20 clever knots is not enough.  Maybe six really good knots might be all you will need if first you think about how you will get the job done.

Instead of blowing "Essential Knots" up into a list containing virtually every known knot, doesn't the title require us more to think --  What are the essential knots with which I can best get through life?  To do this we have to consider what those knots might be used for, then which of the core "Essential Knots" will serve to do the job?  After we have considered HOW, then we can consider what knot, and is it essential.

Derek
Title: Re: Essential Knots?
Post by: DerekSmith on October 03, 2006, 03:28:35 PM

Huh?!  This is quite a "throw", as the bight lengthens by half the retreat of the truck,
so if it backs up 10' and you only 5', you are at the TRUCK end, and the bight end
(if pulled away) will be 10' away from there.

Nope, as I said, as I pull the slack up into a longer bight, I walk two paces away from the truck - i.e. I am still with the bight end.  When I have pulled up enough slack to still be able to throw a HH over the bight, I make the (half SS).  If slack needs to be taken up, I can haul on the bight and slide the HH down the bight to tension before the driver moves off.

This is not as good as Roys (Alices) method because their method, Alice did not need to walk at all, she just kept building the compounding SS in front of her.  This is a different method which just requires less knot making (with more walking).

Derek
Title: Re: Essential Knots?
Post by: KnotNow! on October 06, 2006, 04:40:26 AM
Hi Derek,
  Not much walking, as you said the line is all in front of Alice and all she needs to do is pass line, not walk.  The half hitch can be open and the bights can be huge.  Now the ribs keep her from doing anything.  So my methods must change.
Title: Re: Essential Knots?
Post by: DerekSmith on October 06, 2006, 12:39:25 PM
Hi Derek,
  Not much walking, as you said the line is all in front of Alice and all she needs to do is pass line, not walk.  The half hitch can be open and the bights can be huge.  Now the ribs keep her from doing anything.  So my methods must change.

Hi Roy,

I hope Alice is comfortable.  I have only had bruised ribs and that was bad, so I have no idea of what pain Alice must be suffering - honestly, the lengths some people go to to get out of collecting the firewood  ;) - sorry, couldn't resist that, please pass on my regards and best wishes to Alice, I hope she has a speedy recovery.

However, as you say, Alices DIY skydiving has left you with a new challenge and I am certain that those following this thread will be keen to hear just how you might approach the problem.  This thread is called "Essential Knots?" and has collected a number of proposals from members, (hopefully Lasse will start his Poll soon as he suggested at the beginning of the thread).  However, whenever I read a post regarding selecting 'The Best Knots' I am reminded of Dan Lehmans posts back in January last year titled "Setting About Knotting".  In that article, Dan made the point that any selection of a group of knots should (I would prefer MUST) be done with consideration for the task to be performed.  In addition to this, I would personally add that the knot chosen should be the simplest possible to effectively achieve the desired result and to achieve that you have to look closely at HOW you will do something.

I like to consider challenges where there is a difficult job that would normally take a number of people to do it, but my self challenge is how to achieve it with nothing but rope and ingenuity to assist me.  Consequently the challenge you now face 'tickles my fancy' and offers the opportunity of considering knots 'at work'.  So, how simple a solution will you eventually come up with?

Derek
Title: Re: Essential Knots?
Post by: KnotNow! on October 07, 2006, 03:09:05 AM
Hi Derek,
  Anyone who heats with wood will know how tardy I am this year, cutting the first wood of the year on the day of the first fire.  Ocotober being very late for the need and about a year late for the cutting!  I have a number of footpaths in my woods.  I often cut up trees where they stand dead, on the stump (or fall by wind too, windfall of the highest order).  Sound wood I mill to planks and timber with an attachment on a chain saw.   Wood with some remaining heating value I cut, split as necessary, and put a rope sling around about 80# if the path is narrow and tote it on my back, or two slings around #50 each for a yoke, if the path is wide.  Then I walk out with it.  A very few trails can be used with a wheelborrow (yes, that is how I learned to walk on my hind legs).  Most of the rigging for this work is to be safe in cutting a tree that has been blown into other standing trees.  Also I need to put some strain on a tree to keep the saw from binding or the finished cut from jumping at me.  I use a handy billy, some fair lead blocks, some hook straps and on occasion a double tackle, compounded with the handy billy.  Arborists do this sort of task with far less hardware, as a matter of course but it is one thing to do something 40 hours a week for a few decades and a far different thing to come to it for 5 to 10 cord per year (much of which is easy wood).  The joy of it is that we stay warm for a few cents and what would go to rot is not wasted.  The huge joy of making timber(lumber) is that a windfall may make many hundreds of dollars of wood planks and timbers for several gallons of sweat and a gallon of fuel.  Formerly I used a broad axe, adz and draw knife to make timber and a pit saw to make boards.  I still can, as riding a bicycle... not easily forgotten.  But the saw can do in a day what would take me a week or more with the hand tools.  I keep my tools on hand and often it isn't worth the effort to drag the power saw out if you just want some rough construction timber.
  I don't know how many of you get "Knot News", the news letter of IGKT-PAB (and I was always disappointed that IGKT "Knotting Matters" did not pick up and republish some of the articles... well any of the articles) but I did some drawings to show how Alice and I built our cabin "at grade" (on the flat) and then raised complete walls using a gin pole and blocks.  We also built sections of the roof on the ground and again lifted with gin pole.  All plywood subroof went up an incline with tackle and gin so there was no need to fight 4x8 sheets on my hump.  We built on an 18 pitch (1.5 foot of rise for each foot of run... very steep, think "A" frame).  Walking on an 8 pitch is very nerve wracking and an 18 can't be done, so being on a harness and safety line is the only way.  We used knots and blocks and I could dance on the roof while Alice was not only my belay but could walk me up the roof.  Tomorrow I'll try to remember how to post a photo.  Too late right now.
  I chose this life style for many reasons.  Low impact might be the root.  Using sweat instead of plastic.  It would be impossible to live here, in the woods,  without knots even if cost were no object.
Title: Re: Essential Knots?
Post by: KC on October 07, 2006, 01:02:56 PM
Slipped anchor around a round bumper, Fig. 8 hardware on truck hitch with soft lock, Friction Hitch on truck hitch- with slack stored in bed.  Rope around truck hitch and friction hitch back to self if length variance of rope per load is amicable range for this setup.  Bell ringer's knot around  truck hitch adjusts and stores slack in bed; can give adjustment range between loads if variance isn't too much.
Title: Re: Essential Knots?
Post by: KnotNow! on October 08, 2006, 06:06:28 AM
Hi KC,
  Nice choices.  When working alone I like to back the vehicle so I can watch (hopefully) the load before it fetches on something solid.  Both rigs (pickumup.. dead at the moment) and Montero (300,000 miles and getting younger every day... just like me) have round steel pipe brush guards at front (no horn ends, all continous bend).  So it is pretty easy to adjust whatever knot and then toss the slack on the hood.  I hadn't thought of the bellringer (half a Sheepshank) as it capsizes too easily (the intended purpose), but with the addition of a toggle... toss the slack on the hood, YEEHAW.  No stopping me now!  Unfortunately even the trusty Montero is running a bit rough so it is wheelborrow and easy wood until I work on the carburator of Montero.  O.K.  You can come with Derek and we will be boys playing in the woods (did not look at your profile.... boys and girls playing in the woods?).  Thanks for the post.
Title: Re: Essential Knots?
Post by: DerekSmith on October 08, 2006, 11:41:51 AM
snip...
 O.K.  You can come with Derek and we will be boys playing in the woods (did not look at your profile.... boys and girls playing in the woods?).  Thanks for the post.

Thanks for the invite Roy, unfortunately, the nearest I am likely to be able to afford is to look up your patch of woods on Google Earth and imagine the sights and smells of the woodland - enjoy them for me.

Derek

PS, where are you situated, so I can 'stick a pin' in the map labled "Roy and Alice"
Title: Re: Essential Knots?
Post by: KnotNow! on October 09, 2006, 05:44:55 AM
Hi,
  48, 30 and 121 30, more orless.
Title: Re: Essential Knots?
Post by: KnotNow! on October 09, 2006, 05:53:19 AM
Hi All ,
  Took a day off from broken bones.  Went with a fellow kotter, two cars, to 4,300 and looked at hills and clouds.  A good day.   I came down off the hill to my camp and cut some fire wood into the wheel borrow.   Now to cook and to bed.  Knots used today:  Timber hitch.   Blackwall hitch.  Slipped reef knot.  Half hitch.  A knot we need to discuss.  Maybe no name.  Good night!
Title: Re: Essential Knots?
Post by: DerekSmith on October 09, 2006, 08:12:25 AM
Hi,
  48, 30 and 121 30, more orless.

What an amazing place to live, although the co-ords put you right in the middle of the river, on the edge of the large island !!  From there I would think floating your timber would be the best bet  :D

Count yourself lucky to be able to live that life.  A friend of mine in the UK who is trying to run a small animal rescue sanctuary in some woods in Norfolk, has the council threatening to evict him because two trees got damaged !!  Enjoy it while you can, 'civilisation' is coming to a town near you!!

Today I used the Vice Versa and the KC Sling Hitch, the Constrictor and of course the shoelace knot.

Derek
Title: Re: Essential Knots?
Post by: KC on October 09, 2006, 02:42:35 PM
i haven't had any problem with Bell Ringer capsizing; but i make more than a half a SheepShank; by making 3-5 half hitches in Standing Part to grip bight of Bitters with.  Also, i make sure that the loops that get tourqued into these Half Hitches are all alike/ same direction: either overhand or underhand loops.  Then; finish with overhand knot in the Bitters bight.  Easy to stretch out further for next load after releasing Overhand; must make the lacing further from truck to be able to compress shorter for subsequent loads, for easiest adjustability. 

i favour riggings that allow unused line to be stored on vehichle by Bitters fininshing at or facing truck.  Or, in the example of the prussik back to self for adjustable loop; that all line is used/ out of the way.

Only light loads pulled with bumper hitch; otherwise pull is from inline pull point on frame.  Ball Hitch on bumper is generally a leveraged pull on bumper; not inline witht he frame; inviting failure/bending of bumper etc.  i keep a carabiner in frame hole on my rear frame; on opposite side of exhaust for a quick place to hook too.

Never stand, sit, look etc. (unprotected) inline on a rope under such tensions as these.  That line breaks, and it could cut ya in half!  So, watching what you are doing, not letting load jam, being aware of what you are pulling; and thereby forces on line you are invoking is very good!  Also, we generally throw some wood in back of turck at start of day and keep it there all day; or replace.  This extra weight directly over drive axle gives much better traction.  All ways back up at delivery point to take tension off line; but not so much as to run over line and challenge tiretrapping line against hitchpoint on truck.  Pulleys on carabiners are nice placed on anchors, to pull load one direction, unclip carabiner/pulley and then continue pull; essentially giving a right turning path to spar/ load.

i used to have an olde lil'Toyota truck with hood all caved in.  Could drag from rear and load hood up with firewood too.  Then would pull and haul to destination; gun it in and then stop sharply.  Wood on hood would self eject from the inertia; and wouldn't have to unload it!  i only had to get out of truck on destination end if i had to untie load i was dragging; otherwise was a quick round trip and only getting in and out on one end to re-load!.  i called it my inertia dump truck. 

On the flip side; with a bigger truck or heavy equipment; several spars/ brush piles etc. can be pulled at once in train by use of half hitches on intermediary loads; extending to a half hitch on nose of final load with a later anchoring hitch on the final load in train.  Many hitches (including Timber, Clove, Running Bowline etc.) are made to pull perpendicular to load/ spar; so that the Turns are inline with Standing Part.  But dragging is an inline type pull on spar; that will try to pull on turns around the host spar perpendicular to the Standing Part; leveraging force agianst the Hitch.  Preceding with a Half Hitch; hust grabs the host spar in the Half Hitch and the force flow continues on(the part after the Half Hitch is inline with the part before Half Hitch).  This makes an inline pull that just grips the spar perpendicular to Standing Part; but the pull is inline; as the line continues to trace down spar.  Then; it terminates at another grab point (Timber, Clove etc.); that leverages the forces as termination is perpendicular to Standing Part; but only after reducing the tension pull in the line so that it is not leveraged to more force than the initiating Standing Part pull; only leveraged by direction! 

The placing apart of the 2 grab points/ hitchings in itself gives some inline pull dynamic; so the farther they are apart; in general the straighter the pull.  Like in drawing 2 farther apart points; then connecting makes a straighter line.  With just a Timber, Clove, Running Bowline to pull from on front of spar will even give more 'sway' as the hitch tries to pull perpendicular to spar (so hitch will be inline to itself); but because the forcepoint of the hitch pulling is spaced away from drag and Center of Gravity of spar; this wins out as being the more major factor of being inline; and spar drags fairly straight with some 'sway'.  The inline pull strategy of preceding with Half Hitch reduces/ negates this sway.  This is why the ABOK bible has 2 seperate chapters on spar pulls: Chapter 21- "Hitches to Spar and Rail(Right Angle of Pull)" and 22-"Hitches to Mast, Rigging and Cable(Lengthwise Pull)" back to back.  Also, many lacings in chapter 21 are similair to those in 22; with a preceding Half Hitch type strategy employed.

Proceeding on to Chap. 23 "Hitches to Stake and Post, Pile and Bollard"; we see more of the right angle pulls of strategy.  There ar no parts after the coils around host to place inline with the initiating Standing Part pull; and the back of the turns themsleves are inline with the Standing Part Pull.  So we find that the inititating force is inline with it's equal and opposite on the backside of the spar; so is not leveraged against itself.   When calculating these flows of force; we must look at each change/port seperately to define(as it is a seperate machine/ cog of the whole system); and keep defining until we reach the termination of the force flow in the Bitters. 
Title: Re: Essential Knots?
Post by: KnotNow! on October 10, 2006, 05:24:05 AM
Hi Derek,
  Sorry about the less than precise L&L, for all navigators.  Just looking at the DeLorm map and trying to guess where I am.  GPS won't work here in the canyon so my best guess is all you can get.  I am on the South side of the Skagit and the West side of Jordan Creek.  I have about 1000' of Jordan on my deed and about 1000' of road frontage.  Which has nothing to do with knots.
  With knots, the knot I started with is ABOK #160 and ABOK # 161.   The axel of the modern car is full of hydraulic lines, most fragile.  Also many not have any beam in an enginerring sense to hitch to, unless you want to cut your line on sharp edges or haul on the weak part of the structure.  So I decided to use a solid hitch at the log and a solid hitch at the vehicle frame and have Alice to haul up the the slack.  I've been trying to read the preceeding posts.  I sure wish we could pull wood and break bread.  I think we could enjoy a day (or a month) in camp in knotting fellowship.
Title: Re: Essential Knots?
Post by: KnotNow! on October 11, 2006, 10:39:33 AM
Hi, just rereading the posts.  Wood on the hood reminded me of the U.S. GP at Watkins Glen New York (circ 1962) where some folks were motivating around the grounds with the top of their car stove in and much ice and a keg of beer in the resulting well.
  Boy, it is chilling down here this eve.  The wood I am burning has been dead on the stump for a long time.  Since the rain has not come back we can burn stump wood so we are warm and toasty.
  Today was water day (when I pump up some creek water into our holding tank).  Often I come back and do something useful for the 20 minutes or so... but today I sat down at the creek and tied THK's in hand.   I can do that but not well.   I am envious of folks (Patrick for one, and Bob also) who can get a day of knots with no picture.  Me?  20 minutes is my limit.  Knots?  Sure, reef to bind the suction hose for transport.  Constrictor for hose repair instead of hose clamps.  I use some copper tube in the broken hose, wrap with duct tape and add 4 constrictors.  Good until the next spot the bear chews the hose.  Why do they do that?
Title: Re: Essential Knots?
Post by: KnotNow! on October 13, 2006, 09:26:05 AM
Hi all,
  Moved some wood today for the house..  Alice is on a morphene patch so no electric blanket for her!  (so no hot bed for me!)  I cut some very dry fir and used a timberhitch (ABOK #1665),  and my sling (any loop passed back to hold in one hand), so I can carry two loads of wood, one in each hand.
  Odd to not have rain so late in the year.  Going to help a neighbor with yard work. An adventure.  Much wood to move so will take two handy billies and some straps as well as a very sharp chain saw (sure to be dull by nightfall).   No fancy rigging on this one.  Two years ago I'd have picked it up and walked with it.  Now two handy billy's is the only option.  Damn I hate growing old.  Of course the handy billies and straps give me the option of moving or holding logs so I can cut them with the saw.  If you try to lift a tree with your foot and cut the tree with a saw... your WILL lose toes.
Title: Re: Essential Knots?
Post by: KnotNow! on October 14, 2006, 07:46:32 AM
The wood toay is  done deal.  I'll stop;e bleeding as soon as I can put a patch on itlOf course tomorrow there is high wood and some time to think about it.
Title: Re: Essential Knots?
Post by: KnotNow! on October 16, 2006, 04:23:10 PM
I helped a neighbor move some logs out of his creek.   We, Chip and I,  used a bowline at his truck and a "timberline on the bight" at the logs.   Odd that I never had to tie the "timberline on a bight" before, 50 some odd years.  Of course it worked just fine.  I've always put the timberline at the log and then put a "bight knot" at the truck or use the stupid SS for short hauls.  "Works well with Others." is not my strong point.    Chip drove away until there was no place to drive to and I, in the creek bed, untied the timberhitch on a bight and retied it with the slack to my back.  Very fast and easy.  Worked fine.  So here is another way to move a load and take up slack.  Alice could have put in the SS,  had she been there, or I could stay with the log and haul back the slack and make a new" timberline on the bight", which is what we did.  No "Alice on hand" and me too crippled to climb the creek bank... go figure.
Title: Re: Essential Knots?
Post by: squarerigger on October 16, 2006, 05:30:30 PM
Okay Roy,

I'll bight - what's a "timberline on the bight" - is it a timber hitch made with a bight instead?  Maybe you should draw it for us poor slobs who don't recognize the term and need edumacating then send it to Joe for insertion in Knot News?

Lindsey ;D
Title: Re: Essential Knots?
Post by: KnotNow! on October 17, 2006, 05:16:26 AM
Hi Lindsey, et al,
  Slip of the keyboard, sort of.  It is the Timber Hitch, ABOK 1665, but use a bight instead of a working end.  I never did find it in ABOK under any of the Timber Hitch references but it is a logical extension of the ABOK Timber Hitch.  Seems as if the arborists must be using something like that..... hard to think I'm the first.  Unfortunately I learned the "Timber Hitch" as the "Timberline" just as I learned the "Square Knot" instead of the "Reef Knot".  Late at night and after much lifting of wood I tend to revert to the language of my birth ('murican with a Yankee pitch). :-[  Just for fun:  Where I was born  "Hitch" was a verb and was for horses and wagons and plows.  "Half Hitches" were "half knots".  I never even knew it was a splice I was making until I got ABOK.  It was "long", "short" or "eye".  This might be a thread for a new post?
  Well, I try to use the ABOK terms at all times (regardless of the word in my mind).
  Back to the thread at hand.  I was reminded why I use the SS at home.  Down in the creek, with not too much room to run, the noise of the truck and being mostly deaf, it is good to keep the people out of the line of haulage... so any rigging that keeps people on the flat land and away from swinging loads or moving trucks is good.  Again, sorry to cause a mix up in terms.  No need to draw a picture of this Timber Hitch on a Bight.. do you think?
Title: Re: Essential Knots?
Post by: Amphiprion on October 17, 2006, 09:43:02 PM
What's a handy billy?
Title: Re: Essential Knots?
Post by: Znex on October 17, 2006, 09:54:57 PM
What's a handy billy?

"A handy billy is a small tackle for general purposes."

From this web site http://www.gwpda.org/naval/br82704.htm

Title: Re: Essential Knots?
Post by: KC on October 18, 2006, 04:45:21 AM
The differances between the 3 devices is in design; not power.

Luff, Tail Jigger and Hand Billy as shown; all give a 3x Input Force to lift load as potential.  But all also have ~3 1/3 X Input Force loading on support.   Any system friction decreases the the load capacity; but increases the support loading on lifting; but reverse for holding and lowering.  So that load capacity is increased, and support loading is decreased for holding and lowering; where friction works in your favour; only working agianst you in lifting/ compressing pulley jig. 

A 3x can be 2Handed for 4x and 4x loading on support each (X the pull of 1 hand).  But these are 3x with return; so can be 2Handed for 6x power and 6x loading on support.  The return portion 2handed gives a 2x multiplier for the 3/1.  In these systems 2handed; the hand pull portion of force places just as much force on the support/ anchor as on the load; then follow above tendencies for Friction.  1handed pulls with return tend to place more load on support/ anchor than the load you are supposed to be focussing force on.

i think to understand the forces inside the tiny world of a knot/ lacing; it helps to see same forces in bends, angles and frictions in the full size world of rigging etc.  Taken like this; these pulley systems are like internal knot forces under a microscope; with same force ratios; in same materials etc.
Title: Re: Essential Knots?
Post by: KnotNow! on October 18, 2006, 05:32:50 AM
Hi All,
  I like the ABOK 3229 definition; "Watch Tackle, Handy-Billy, or Tail Tackle is a small luff tackle with a tail on the fall block."  I find hook tackle (luff tackle) useful and keep some short straps to use as pendants on the same rail as my hook tackle.  I keep several tail tackles on hand, if you plait the tails they don't scar up the work you are pulling.  I use some with chain tails for rough work (stumps and such).  I have some with swivels in the tail so I can walk the fall to a favorable pulling angle without stress on the cheek blocks.
Title: Re: Essential Knots?
Post by: Amphiprion on October 18, 2006, 08:32:31 PM
Thanks for the explanation and link to pics!  All makes more sense now.
Title: Re: Essential Knots?
Post by: Willeke on October 22, 2006, 09:12:18 AM
Roy,
I have done some reading in this thread and saw your remark
Unfortunately I learned the "Timber Hitch" as the "Timberline" just as I learned the "Square Knot" instead of the "Reef Knot".  Late at night and after much lifting of wood I tend to revert to the language of my birth ('murican with a Yankee pitch). :-[  Just for fun:  Where I was born  "Hitch" was a verb and was for horses and wagons and plows.  "Half Hitches" were "half knots".  I never even knew it was a splice I was making until I got ABOK.  It was "long", "short" or "eye".  This might be a thread for a new post?
I think it is very good to make notes of the different names you use for the knots.
It does not matter where, in a notebook at home or online, but please make sure the knowledge is kept.
We as knotters worldwide tend to use the names from the books, which are mostly the sailors names for the knots. One day we will find a set of notes of someone working knots on a farm in North West USA, and nobody knows which knots he is talking about, because he used the local names. (Or midwest or south, or whateverpart of whatever nation.)

Reminds me of knotnames we used round the house, we always talked about the knot you use to start crochett. (Overhand knot slipped.) And all around knew what we were talking about because we all knew how to start crochetting.

Willeke
Title: Re: Essential Knots?
Post by: KnotNow! on October 22, 2006, 09:33:21 AM
Hi, Wileke,
  A good thought, not just for me but for all.   As I said, I didn't even know I was making  a splice!.
Title: Re: Essential Knots?
Post by: Lasse_C on November 10, 2006, 10:26:49 AM
Just a short message: I have not forgotten this thread that I started. I have just been too busy to sit down and sum it up. Since it now is on 6 pages, it has apparently aroused some interest!  ;D

Lasse C
Title: Re: Essential Knots?
Post by: DerekSmith on November 14, 2006, 09:58:07 PM
Roy,

Willeke makes a very good point and I feel we could take steps to save this knowledge.

To start with though, could you enlarge on your use of terms - what else do you remember that you could share with us?

Derek