International Guild of Knot Tyers Forum

General => Chit Chat => Topic started by: X1 on July 29, 2013, 02:28:42 PM

Title: Figure out an easy TIB tying method for Scott s locked TIB bowline
Post by: X1 on July 29, 2013, 02:28:42 PM
   Scott s locked bowline is a bowline where a simple "lock" of the Tail improves the security of the simple common bowline. It can be tied in two slightly different variations. In the original one (1), which is not TIB, the working end makes a sharp U turn around the rim of the nipping turn. By a slight modification, we can tie the same knot where the working end encircles the rim of the nipping turn, as before, AND the eye leg of the Tail as well, thus following a wider curve at the area of the turn(2). It turns out that this second variation happens to be TIB (3), which comes as an unexpected bonus, and makes this eyeknot a very interesting and versatile one. We do not have many PET AND TIB eyeknots ! ( See the attached pictures ).
   However, Scott himself claims that, by this sharp U turn / bending of the rope around the rim of the nipping turn in the original version, the Tail is relieved more efficiently by any pulling from the eye leg of the Tail. I keep insisting that sharp U turns of rope strands around one rope diameter should better be avoided, because, when tied on stiff material - especially if those strands are not loaded from both sides, as it happens in the case the strand is a Tail - those turns have the tendency to remain slag, and run the danger to pull the Tail out of the collar, if the knot has not been "locked" yet. Also, a knot where there are no "eyes wide open" is a more compact and denser knot, with a less bulky appearance. I have not been able to convince Scott till now, but I am not disappointed yet, given how  few people I have been able to convince about anything in this Forum !  :)
   Now, the challenge is to figure pout a simple, easy to be memorised and implemented tying method for the Scott s TIB locked bowline. To find such an easy TIB method is not always an easy thing !  :)  Personally, I have failed to "see" the fact that a knot is TIB, and then to find a simple TIB tying method many times  - so that I have lost faith in my abilities related to this... Luca and Allan Lee have showed a great talent in tying and untying TIB bowlines, and I do not doubt many other knot tyers would be able to figure out a neat solution on this problem.

1. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=19.msg20538#msg20538 (http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=19.msg20538#msg20538)
2. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=19.msg20616#msg20616 (http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=19.msg20616#msg20616)
3. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4480.msg28877#msg28877 (http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4480.msg28877#msg28877)
Title: Re: Figure out an easy TIB tying method for Scott s locked TIB bowline
Post by: SS369 on July 30, 2013, 12:40:02 AM
   Scott s locked bowline is a bowline where a simple "lock" of the Tail improves the security of the simple common bowline. It can be tied in two slightly different variations. In the original one (1), which is not TIB, the working end makes a sharp U turn around the rim of the nipping turn. By a slight modification we can tie the same knot where the working end encircles the rim of the nipping turn, as before, AND the eye leg of the Tail as well, thus following a wider curve at the area of the turn(2). It turns out that this second variation happens to be TIB (3), which comes as an unexpected bonus, and makes this eyeknot a very interesting and versatile one. We do not have many PET AND TIB eyeknots ! ( See the attached pictures ).
   However, Scott himself claims that, by this sharp U turn / bending of the rope around the rim of the nipping turn in the original version, the Tail is relieved more efficiently by any pulling from the eye leg of the Tail. I keep insisting that sharp U turns of rope strands around one rope diameter should better be avoided, because, when tied on stiff material - especially if those strands are not loaded from both sides, as it happens in the case the strand is a Tail - those turns have the tendency to remain slag, and run the danger to pull the Tail out of the collar, if the knot has not been "locked" yet. Also, a knot where there are no "eyes wide open" is a more compact and denser knot, with a less bulky appearance. I have not been able to convince Scott till now, but I am not disappointed yet, given how  few people I have been able to convince abut anything in this Forum !  :)
   Now, the challenge is to figure pout a simple, easy to be memorised and implemented tying method for the Scott s TIB locked bowline. To find such an easy TIB method is not always an easy thing !  :)  Personally, I have failed to "see" the fact that a knot is TIB, and then to find a simple TIB tying method many times  - so that I have lost faith in my abilities related to this... Luca and Allan Lee have showed a great talent in tying and untying TIN bowlines, and I do not doubt many other knot tyers would be able to figure out a neat solution on this problem.
1. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=19.msg20538#msg20538 (http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=19.msg20538#msg20538)
2. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=19.msg20616#msg20616 (http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=19.msg20616#msg20616)
3. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4480.msg28877#msg28877 (http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4480.msg28877#msg28877)


While I generally agree with your statement about rope turns around a single diameter being a potential detriment, I don't agree in this case. In fact, I personally believe the opposite is true in this case. The single u turn around the area in this example will provide more clamping and security, where as, if the area is rounder then it will have less clamping force to resist tail movement because the load/force is spread over two diameters.

Having just returned from a day of climbing and using the single version I can attest to the confidence I have in this loop and its security. I intentionally jumped 20 feet and inspected the loop and its parts. Only a tightening of the knot where expected took place. No tail was eaten.

The simple lock, version one is a bit sleeker and compact than the TIB version and so I wish you good luck convincing me that the TIB version is more secure(better). ;-)))

Version one:
Easy to remember how to tie as well. Very easy to inspect. Works great with stiff, static ropes as well. And when you're done it unties easily.

SS
Title: Re: Figure out an easy TIB tying method for Scott s locked TIB bowline
Post by: X1 on July 30, 2013, 02:24:21 AM
if the area is rounder then it will have less clamping force to resist tail movement, because the load/force is spread over two diameters.
   Good try,,, but you would nt believe I will swallow it before I examine it, would you ?  :)
   At THIS area, there is no clamping force by the nipping turn ! There is only a U turn around the outer surface of the rim of the nipping turn - either around one rope diameter, kicking and screaming, or around two rope diameters, happily following a wider curve that leads the working end into the centre of the nipping turn. In BOTH variations, the Tail is relieved by a great amount of pulling force at this U turn ( as it happens in every Tail after it has made the U turn around the Standing end we call "collar" ), and only THEN it goes into the heart of the nipping turn, where it is squeezed by it, and immobilized by its contact with three other two segments there. ( We should notice here that the Tail and the eye leg of the Tail meet in this central area at a right angle - the right angle any two segments should meet, in order to be immobilized most efficiently ). So, the clamping force acts at the centre of the nipping turn, NOT at the outer surface of the rim of the nipping turn, which is encircled by the U turn ! So, regarding the clamping force, the diameter of the U turn plays no role at all ! There is no advantage having a sharper U turn there rather a wider one - but there are disadvantages, which were explained in my previous post.
   In fact, if the interested reader has even a quick look at the two variations, he will realize that there is no difference in the nipping turn or the location of the Tail in the point where the clamping forces do act on it...See the image you have submitted in the other post : One can hardly notice which variation is presented - because this "front" view is almost identical. However, when I look this poor anaconda having to bend so much before it enters into the hole where it will be clamped, I wonder why it has to suffer this torture.
   Now, it would be great to actually measure the forces on the Tail in the two variations - or use such a slippery material that would possibly reveal any small motion in the weakest of them. Otherwise I will not be convinced by the moving attempt to protect your first child, and ignore the second ! I can only see a sharp and a wide U turn, around the rim of the nipping turn, or around the same rim of the same nipping turn in the same location, PLUS around the eye leg of the Tail - and we all know that the possible capstan effect on the segment that makes this U turn does not depend on the diameter of the drum. A wider turn may not relieve the Tail more, but it also does not relieve it less.

version one is a bit sleeker and compact than the TIB version ....
 
  You know the joke with the farmer and the two cows, the white and the black one...(2).He always praises the black, even if he has to admit that their qualities are, in fact, identical. You are cautious to use this "a bit", that is true, but even this does not tell the whole story...Because if a stiff springy Tail resists this painful bending, the U turn will remain an "eye wide open", so, actually, the total volume of the knot will be larger, not smaller ! It will be sleeker and more compact, ONLY when and after it will be locked, and ONLY if the material is not very stiff. Otherwise, it will not, and I was talking about this "otherwise"...

Version one:
Easy to remember how to tie as well. Very easy to inspect. Works great with stiff, static ropes as well. And when you're done it unties easily .....

   "Oh, the black cow...Such a superb animal...It produces the best milk in the village..." " And the white cow ?" " The white cow ? It produces exactly the same quality of milk as the black one..."
   BOTH versions are tied in the same number of tucks, in almost the same way. BOTH are easy to inspect - because if the one IS easy to inspect, so will be the other ! They are almost identical ! BOTH work great with stiff static rope - because if the version one does work great, the version two will do as well, and even greater ! And when you are done, BOTH will untie easily. ( Provided that the version one, with the Tail-made spring, has not become untied already !  :)  )

1.
The city guy decides one morning to go out for a walk in the country.  As he is ambling down the sunny country path, he comes across a simple farmer, tending his two cows.

 "Good morning, farmer," says the city guy.

 "And good morning to you, sir," says the farmer.  And he pauses, and waits.

 The city guy, out of his element, thinks that probably just ending it there isn't enough.  Struggling for a further topic, he says, "Those are some fine cows you have there."

 "Oh, yes, the black cow is a lovely cow, she is," says the farmer.

 "And the white cow?"

 "Well," the farmer pauses, "... yes, I suppose the white cow is good too."

 "Yes, they certainly look fit and healthy," says the city guy.

 "Indeed, the black cow is the healthiest I've ever had! Never needed the vet, full of life!" responds the farmer.

 "And the white cow?"

 "Well,... yes, the white cow is pretty healthy too."

 "So I suppose they give a lot of milk then?"

 The farmer beams. "You should see the black cow, come milking time, she's full to bursting with the creamiest milk, she is. Oh yes indeed, the black cow gives a lot of milk she does."

 "And the white cow?"

 "Oh, well, yes... I suppose the white cow gives a lot of milk too."

 The city guy doesn't really know where to go with this.  The farmer seems to really have something special for the black cow, even though the white cow seems just as good.

 "You know, farmer, I don't mean to intrude, but it seems every time I ask you really favour the black cow...."

 "Well, isn't it obvious?" asks the farmer, "The black cow is MY cow!"

 "Ah, I see. And the white cow?"

 "Well, yeah, the white cow is mine, too."
Title: Re: Figure out an easy TIB tying method for Scott s locked TIB bowline
Post by: SS369 on July 30, 2013, 03:17:07 AM
if the area is rounder then it will have less clamping force to resist tail movement, because the load/force is spread over two diameters.
   Good try,,, but you would nt believe I will swallow it before I examine it, would you ?  :)
   At THIS area, there is no clamping force by the nipping turn ! There is only a U turn around the outer surface of the rim of the nipping turn - either around one rope diameter, kicking and screaming, or around two rope diameters, happily following a wider curve that leads the working end into the centre of the nipping turn. In BOTH variations, the Tail is relieved by a great amount of pulling force at this U turn ( as it happens in every Tail after it has made the U turn around the Standing end we call "collar" ), and only THEN it goes into the heart of the nipping turn, where it is squeezed by it, and immobilized by its contact with three other two segments there. ( We should notice here that the Tail and the eye leg of the Tail meet in this central area at a right angle - the right angle any two segments should meet, in order to be immobilized most efficiently ). So, the clamping force acts at the centre of the nipping turn, NOT at the outer surface of the rim of the nipping turn, which is encircled by the U turn ! So, regarding the clamping force, the diameter of the U turn plays no role at all ! There is no advantage having a sharper U turn there rather a wider one - but there are disadvantages, which were explained in my previous post.
   In fact, if the interested reader has even a quick look at the two variations, he will realize that there is no difference in the nipping turn or the location of the Tail in the point where the clamping forces do act on it...See the image you have submitted in the other post : One can hardly notice which variation is presented - because this "front" view is almost identical. However, when I look this poor anaconda having to bend so much before it enters into the hole where it will be clamped, I wonder why it has to suffer this torture.
   Now, it would be great to actually measure the forces on the Tail in the two variations - or use such a slippery material that would possibly reveal any small motion in the weakest of them. Otherwise I will not be convinced by the moving attempt to protect your first child, and ignore the second ! I can only see a sharp and a wide U turn, around the rim of the nipping turn, or around the same rim of the same nipping turn in the same location, PLUS around the eye leg of the Tail - and we all know that the possible capstan effect on the segment that makes this U turn does not depend on the diameter of the drum. A wider turn may not relieve the Tail more, but it also does not relieve it less.

version one is a bit sleeker and compact than the TIB version ....
 
  You know the joke with the farmer and the two cows, the white and the black one...(2).He always praises the black, even if he has to admit that their qualities are, in fact, identical. You are cautious to use this "a bit", that is true, but even this does not tell the whole story...Because if a stiff springy Tail resists this painful bending, the U turn will remain an "eye wide open", so, actually, the total volume of the knot will be larger, not smaller ! It will be sleeker and more compact, ONLY when and after it will be locked, and ONLY if the material is not very stiff. Otherwise, it will not, and I was talking about this "otherwise"...

Version one:
Easy to remember how to tie as well. Very easy to inspect. Works great with stiff, static ropes as well. And when you're done it unties easily .....

   "Oh, the black cow...Such a superb animal...It produces the best milk in the village..." " And the white cow ?" " The white cow ? It produces exactly the same quality of milk as the black one..."
   BOTH versions are tied in the same number of tucks, in almost the same way. BOTH are easy to inspect - because if the one IS easy to inspect, so will be the other ! They are almost identical ! BOTH work great with stiff static rope - because if the version one does work great, the version two will do as well, and even greater ! And when you are done, BOTH will untie easily. ( Provided that the version one, with the Tail-made spring, has not become untied already !  :)  )

1.
The city guy decides one morning to go out for a walk in the country.  As he is ambling down the sunny country path, he comes across a simple farmer, tending his two cows.

 "Good morning, farmer," says the city guy.

 "And good morning to you, sir," says the farmer.  And he pauses, and waits.

 The city guy, out of his element, thinks that probably just ending it there isn't enough.  Struggling for a further topic, he says, "Those are some fine cows you have there."

 "Oh, yes, the black cow is a lovely cow, she is," says the farmer.

 "And the white cow?"

 "Well," the farmer pauses, "... yes, I suppose the white cow is good too."

 "Yes, they certainly look fit and healthy," says the city guy.

 "Indeed, the black cow is the healthiest I've ever had! Never needed the vet, full of life!" responds the farmer.

 "And the white cow?"

 "Well,... yes, the white cow is pretty healthy too."

 "So I suppose they give a lot of milk then?"

 The farmer beams. "You should see the black cow, come milking time, she's full to bursting with the creamiest milk, she is. Oh yes indeed, the black cow gives a lot of milk she does."

 "And the white cow?"

 "Oh, well, yes... I suppose the white cow gives a lot of milk too."

 The city guy doesn't really know where to go with this.  The farmer seems to really have something special for the black cow, even though the white cow seems just as good.

 "You know, farmer, I don't mean to intrude, but it seems every time I ask you really favour the black cow...."

 "Well, isn't it obvious?" asks the farmer, "The black cow is MY cow!"

 "Ah, I see. And the white cow?"

 "Well, yeah, the white cow is mine, too."



I see the difference between the offered Blue Cow and the Black Cow. Looks like the Blue Cow has a bit of gout.
One does seem easier to inspect more readily to me. The straight vertical line of the tail (V1) versus a more meandering path of V2.
Version 2 starts its life as a bowline with the tail outside and so we are not truly Cow to Cow.

Tie both with the stiffest rope you have to a not quite fully dressed state (close though), then grab the eye and just pull them both holding on to the standing part (best on the same rope to do a tug o war). See which one approximates the desired finished acceptability first.
Version two, besides being uglier, ;-)) has soo much more space left inside the nip area compared to the contest winner. lol

I recommend that you hang and jump (Very close to the ground! and with a pillow underneath! and someone to catch you!) on version two and if you survive try version one and then put that Blue Cow out of its misery. ;D ;D ;D

Seriously, use the one You will feel the most confidence with.
Title: Re: Figure out an easy TIB tying method for Scott s locked TIB bowline
Post by: X1 on July 30, 2013, 04:58:10 AM
One does seem easier to inspect more readily to me

   Why ? I do not see any difference... I follow, visually, each line with the same easiness ( or difficulty, becows cows are cows...)

The straight vertical line of the tail (V1) versus a more meandering path of V2.

   Yeahhh... If the blue cow had swallowed the stick the Black cow has, its neck would be straight as well ! The Blue cow is tied on 10mm, not in 17.5mm as the Black cow ! It has the 1 / 3 of the Black cow s area, so it has the 1 / 3 of the Black cow s stiffness, in absolute numbers  !
   See what exactly the tail of the Black cow has to do, to exit through the cows back : Go over ( the "lower" rim of the nipping turn), then go under ( the "higher: rim of the nipping turn), then go over again ( the rim of the collar ). Exactly the same over/under/over  path the Tail of the Blue Cow follows...The difference you see is due to the huge rope you used. Tie them on the same rope, and then tell me which is the straightest neck.
Your beauty contest would be valid in front of an audience full of willing bulls, but not anywhere else, I am afraid. Both cows are... well,  as beautiful as as a cow can be !  :)
   I suggest you tie them on the same rope, and tie also farmer Lehman s cow, and let all three of them on the same grass, to see what happens. A tug-of-war between them would be interesting, indeed  Before you turn Blue Cow into tasty steaks, examine it a little bid more. And try to figure out how one can tie it in the bight, for CowGod s sake ! THAT was the issue in this thread, remember ?
Title: Re: Figure out an easy TIB tying method for Scott s locked TIB bowline
Post by: Dan_Lehman on July 30, 2013, 05:55:28 AM
Quote
I can attest to the confidence I have in this loop and its security.
I intentionally jumped 20 feet and inspected the loop and its parts.
Only a tightening of the knot where expected took place. No tail was eaten.
Except that this is not "QED":  it's not solving the
problem posed by the knot, which is insecurity
when slack & jostled or rubbed.  --not the problem
in kernmantle use, that is.  (In HMPE there is the
problem of slippage, which this knot won't help.)

As for the tighter clamping of wrapping 1dia. vs. 2,
that only occurs if the wrapping is tight enough
and overcomes resistance to bending,
which is a concern for firm kernmantle cordage;
in some such ropes, one cannot manually
make a 1dia. wrap --it just won't go!
(PMI pit rope; aged BWII)


--dl*
====
Title: Re: Figure out an easy TIB tying method for Scott s locked TIB bowline
Post by: SS369 on July 30, 2013, 01:36:15 PM
Quote
I can attest to the confidence I have in this loop and its security.
I intentionally jumped 20 feet and inspected the loop and its parts.
Only a tightening of the knot where expected took place. No tail was eaten.
Except that this is not "QED":  it's not solving the
problem posed by the knot, which is insecurity
when slack & jostled or rubbed.  --not the problem
in kernmantle use, that is.  (In HMPE there is the
problem of slippage, which this knot won't help.)

As for the tighter clamping of wrapping 1dia. vs. 2,
that only occurs if the wrapping is tight enough
and overcomes resistance to bending,
which is a concern for firm kernmantle cordage;
in some such ropes, one cannot manually
make a 1dia. wrap --it just won't go!
(PMI pit rope; aged BWII)


--dl*
====

The tail is secured very well against dislodging when slack or jostled. I did not indicate that it could not be untied! Are we talking theoretically here? Take the rope, tie the knot (like you were actually going to use it), use a sufficiently safe tail length (say 10-12 times the rope diameter) and beat the heck out of it.

I climb with it as a tie in knot and it gets rubbed and jostled enough on the way up to let me consider that aspect. It is not a problem, even in stiff rope. 10.5 BW ProTac is very firm and we've top roped with it and there is no problem with this as a tie in loop at all.

This constant referral to HMPE slippage, it is a challenge that I believe will persist through out time immemorial, till a most appropriate knot will be devise/invented. Coated HMPE seems to do better.
Maybe there is no Ultimate Knot that can satisfy all media and scenarios.

I can attest that the rope I have used, stated above, will take a turn of less than one diameter. I have it right here and can make a turn that the rope will not pass through and it will bite enough to resist pull though.
As stated in the BW technical manual Technical manual Rev 0612  Page 5
"Knot flexibility ? K: A right hand
overhand knot is tied into the rope and a left hand
overhand knot tied 250 below. The rope is loaded
to 10 kg for one minute. Each knot?s interior
diameter is then measured under a 1 kg load. Th
e average of the interior of the hold must be
less than the diameter of the rope. This testing is
no longer a requirement of the standard but it
is included for reference as to one method
to determine flexibility of various ropes"Technical manual Rev 0612  Page 5
Knot flexibility ? K: A right hand
overhand knot is tied into the rope and a left hand
overhand knot tied 250 below. The rope is loaded
to 10 kg for one minute. Each knot?s interior
diameter is then measured under a 1 kg load. Th
e average of the interior of the hole must be
less than the diameter of the rope. This testing is
no longer a requirement of the standard but it
is included for reference as to one method
to determine flexibility of various ropes. "

Yes, I know that not all ropes do all things. Age and design have influence.
So to the reader/user: Use your head and choose wisely and appropriately for the material used and the task.

As for the TIB challenge of the OP. I have not found a way and I don't think I will.

SS
Title: Re: Figure out an easy TIB tying method for Scott s locked TIB bowline
Post by: Dan_Lehman on July 30, 2013, 05:43:55 PM
This constant referral to HMPE slippage, it is a challenge that I believe will persist\]through out time immemorial, till a most appropriate knot will be devise/invented. Coated HMPE seems to do better.
For HMPE, a main issue is loss of strength, no matter
--getting to 40% of tensile being what I see as reasonably
expected, but no better.  (That's 60% loss, 40% remaining.)
But for security, there are knots that hold, as my
mirrored bowline version showed, in Brion's one test;
with *bowlines*, for this, it's a matter of something more
than the mere defining nipping loop in the SPart.

Quote
As stated in the BW technical manual Technical manual Rev 0612  Page 5
"Knot flexibility ? K: A right hand
overhand knot is tied into the rope and a left hand
overhand knot tied 250 below. The rope is loaded
to 10 kg for one minute. Each knot?s interior
diameter is then measured under a 1 kg load. Th
e average of the interior of the hold must be
less than the diameter of the rope. This testing is
no longer a requirement of the standard but it
is included for reference as to one method
to determine flexibility of various ropes"

Wow, this thread is destined to win the Verbose Award
(with a copy of X.'s country story in full, and duplicates
of BW --in need of some editing.  (And did they need
some indication of unit of measure for "250" --mm?!
Odd, too, that what might have international, ISO
audience, used "right hand ..." vs. "S/Z" terms.)
"Knot flexibility" here looks better called, as it has been
in the past, "knotability" : for it is a combination of
the resistance to bending and friction of surface that
leads to the tightening of the overhand & other knots.

As for actual rockclimbing, one should wonder about
the general disposition of the eye knot when "leading"
vs. "following or TR-ing" --i.e., the knot lies generally
downward or upward, respectively.


--dl*
====

Title: Re: Figure out an easy TIB tying method for Scott s locked TIB bowline
Post by: SS369 on July 30, 2013, 11:53:55 PM
This constant referral to HMPE slippage, it is a challenge that I believe will persist\]through out time immemorial, till a most appropriate knot will be devise/invented. Coated HMPE seems to do better.
For HMPE, a main issue is loss of strength, no matter
--getting to 40% of tensile being what I see as reasonably
expected, but no better.  (That's 60% loss, 40% remaining.)
But for security, there are knots that hold, as my
mirrored bowline version showed, in Brion's one test;
with *bowlines*, for this, it's a matter of something more
than the mere defining nipping loop in the SPart.   Except that this is not "QED":  it's not solving the
problem posed by the knot, which is insecurity
when slack & jostled or rubbed.  --not the problem
in kernmantle use, that is.  >>>(In HMPE there is the
problem of slippage, which this knot won't help.)


From a recent post within this thread that I was commenting to.

Quote
As stated in the BW technical manual Technical manual Rev 0612  Page 5
"Knot flexibility ? K: A right hand
overhand knot is tied into the rope and a left hand
overhand knot tied 250 below. The rope is loaded
to 10 kg for one minute. Each knot?s interior
diameter is then measured under a 1 kg load. Th
e average of the interior of the hold must be
less than the diameter of the rope. This testing is
no longer a requirement of the standard but it
is included for reference as to one method
to determine flexibility of various ropes"

Pasted as it was found.

Quote
Wow, this thread is destined to win the Verbose Award 
(with a copy of X.'s country story in full, and duplicates
of BW --in need of some editing.
 

I can certainly agree here and a few other places and a few members who are particularly accomplished at it.

Quote
As for actual rockclimbing, one should wonder about
the general disposition of the eye knot when "leading"
vs. "following or TR-ing" --i.e., the knot lies generally
downward or upward, respectively.

One can wonder or one can climb and know.

We are veering away from the thrust of the thread and should quell the arguments and get back to it if anyone has anything to say about the TIB possibility.

SS
Title: Re: Figure out an easy TIB tying method for Scott s locked TIB bowline
Post by: kd8eeh on July 31, 2013, 06:00:49 AM
Refering to this thread's original purpose, the best way i can find (quickly, that is) is as follows.  Admittedly, i cannot replicate it successfully from memory, but i am not great at tying any tib loops correctly.  I believe the variations that show up later can be tied by simple variations of this method, but i am not sure.  After the last step you tuck the two collars formed around the loop of the slip knot behind the rest of the knot.  Tell me if i need another picture for the last step.  You may need to redress the knot after tying it this way.
Title: Re: Figure out an easy TIB tying method for Scott s locked TIB bowline
Post by: X1 on July 31, 2013, 09:42:37 AM
   Your method is fine, easy to follow and relatively easy to remember, but I do not see how it can tie Scott s TIB locked bowline, after stage 4...because, in Scotts s knot the Standing end and the Tail pass from the same ide of the rim of the main collar  - not from opposite sides, as in your knot. Meaning, between the two ends there is no strand, as it is shown in your fourth picture. Also, can you, please, take your pictures against a clear, one colour background, and have them just a little bid more focused ? Use the camera of your phone, of the camera of the computer, as you do now, but making it facing the wall, parallel to it, and holding the knot here, in between the screen and the wall. You can also present your sequence in "slower" , more steps - do not worry, I will take new pictures as soon as I understand the method ...
Title: Re: Figure out an easy TIB tying method for Scott s locked TIB bowline
Post by: Luca on July 31, 2013, 01:58:01 PM
Hi X1,

This is my attempt to represent how I found a way to do this bowline with a method in the bight(relatively)easy to remember and quite quick to perform(I have not still checked the photos by kd8eeh, but I decided to post also my pictures , because last night I lost a few hours of sweet sleep for take me on with this work! :D)
As often happens these my schemes do not make full justice to reality:who will have a little patience will see that actually things are simpler than I do appear!
I run 6 steps,deciding to mark in red the portion of the rope the whose position is changed in the following diagram;the upper loop in the first diagram,basically gives origin to the eye,the lowest one gives origin to the collar;after step 6,during the dressing and setting, may be necessary to rearrange the standing parts,that in the diagram, for simplicity (or laziness .. ::)),are "exchanged" compared to the original knot.
The first three steps:



(http://)

(http://)
Title: Re: Figure out an easy TIB tying method for Scott s locked TIB bowline
Post by: Luca on July 31, 2013, 02:00:47 PM
...and the last three
                                                                                                 Bye!



(http://)

(http://)
Title: Re: Figure out an easy TIB tying method for Scott s locked TIB bowline
Post by: X1 on July 31, 2013, 05:09:47 PM
   last night I lost a few hours of sweet sleep for take me on with this work! :D 
   Congratulations, Luca ! I write it BEFORE examining your solution, because solutions do not matter ! It is the effort that counts, independently of the outcome. If you continue like this, your effort will pay you back every second  spent ! Good work !
   P.S. How many hours of sweet sleep did you say you lose ? Well, lose a few more, please  !  :)  I am sure you can simplify this method MUCH more ! Also, you could possibly show it in a video, on YouTube - when you will simplify I furthert, because now it seems much more complicated that the knot it ties ! Nevertheless, good work ! Go on, we will all have zillions of sweet night sleeps in just a few years, we can spear some to improve our days !  :) 
Title: Re: Figure out an easy TIB tying method for Scott s locked TIB bowline
Post by: SS369 on July 31, 2013, 06:50:31 PM
Testing it out as an animation.

SS
Title: Re: Figure out an easy TIB tying method for Scott s locked TIB bowline
Post by: kd8eeh on August 01, 2013, 05:37:03 AM
I forgot to show something important - the ends  of the rope have to be twisted before wrapping the collars back.  I think this is why i was having trouble duplicating it.
Title: Re: Figure out an easy TIB tying method for Scott s locked TIB bowline
Post by: X1 on August 01, 2013, 06:48:36 AM
  I see it NOW !  :)  Do not suppose that it is easy to anybody to follow the flips of the bights over the entire knot - especially when it is shown by a series of non-focused pictures !  :)
  Increase or decrease the distance between the computer and the knot, until the depth of the field is right. Then you can always zoom the picture, crop it in the correct size, and present it. It is better if we have images of the knots on a lower pixel count, but well focused, than the opposite.
   Your method seems easier to me than Luca s - but perhaps I am simply misled by the different means of representation. 
Title: Re: Figure out an easy TIB tying method for Scott s locked TIB bowline
Post by: James Petersen on August 15, 2013, 05:30:56 AM
Am I missing something here? This knot, albeit an interesting one, looks like a variation of the cowboy bowline rather than a standard bowline. If this is the case, I would hesitate to call it a modification of Scott's bowline, which is based on a standard bowline.

-- J:P
Title: Re: Figure out an easy TIB tying method for Scott s locked TIB bowline
Post by: xarax on August 15, 2013, 08:38:11 AM
Am I missing something here? This knot, albeit an interesting one, looks like a variation of the cowboy bowline rather than a standard bowline. If this is the case, I would hesitate to call it a modification of Scott's bowline, which is based on a standard bowline.

The standard bowline does not work differently than the "cowboy bowline", when the angle of the eyes is small, i.e. in most cases ! Personally, I usually tie the ABoK#1010 as a mooring bowline, and only when I anticipate a wide eye, I tie something else, usually an "Eskimo" bowline. So, when we speak about "locked" bowlines, we do not distinguish between left-handed and right-handed locked bowlines ! The issue in this knots has moved away from this distinction, which does not play any role in the more complex knots.
So, it is a modification of the locking mechanism, what is the most important thing in this eye-knot, after being a bowline. The fact that the "initial" / "underneath" bowline is left-handed or right-handed does not play any role any more. The geometrical and structural difference between the two forms of the bowline are important only for the bare bowline, not for the re-tucked forms, where the knots formed during ring loading are very different than the Lapp knot. 
Title: Re: Figure out an easy TIB tying method for Scott s locked TIB bowline
Post by: James Petersen on August 15, 2013, 11:03:11 AM
Am I missing something here? This knot, albeit an interesting one, looks like a variation of the cowboy bowline rather than a standard bowline. If this is the case, I would hesitate to call it a modification of Scott's bowline, which is based on a standard bowline.

The standard bowline does not work differently than the "cowboy bowline", when the angle of the eyes is small, i.e. in most cases ! Personally, I usually tie the ABoK#1010 as a mooring bowline, and only when I anticipate a wide eye, I tie something else, usually an "Eskimo" bowline. So, when we speak about "locked" bowlines, we do not distinguish between left-handed and right-handed locked bowlines ! The issue in this knots has moved away from this distinction, which does not play any role in the more complex knots.
So, it is a modification of the locking mechanism, what is the most important thing in this eye-knot, after being a bowline. The fact that the "initial" / "underneath" bowline is left-handed or right-handed does not play any role any more. The geometrical and structural difference between the two forms of the bowline are important only for the bare bowline, not for the re-tucked forms, where the knots formed during ring loading are very different than the Lapp knot.

All well and good, but I (fool that I am) was having a *#** of a time trying to get the knot tied by starting from the standard bowline, from which Scott's knot is derived -- it just doesn't work.

The knot in this thread cannot be tied when starting with a standard bowline. Scott's is tied by first tying a standard bowline and then "locking" it. So, again, with no disrespect to Scott or anyone else ( I like both versions very much), I feel it is misleading to call it a modification of Scott's locked bowline.

Starting from Scott's locked bowline you would have to remove the tail/lock and arrive at a standard bowline. You would then have to remove the tail from the TurNip (not a bowline anymore), take the tail around the SP in the other  direction, again creating a collar, and reeve it through the TurNip, arriving at a cowboy bowline. It is only this form (the cowboy bowline) that you can arrive at the knot currently being discussed.

-- J:P
Title: Re: Figure out an easy TIB tying method for Scott s locked TIB bowline
Post by: xarax on August 15, 2013, 11:31:43 AM
I was having a *#** of a time trying to get the knot tied by starting from the standard bowline, from which Scott's knot is derived -- it just doesn't work.
The knot in this thread cannot be tied when starting with a standard bowline. Scott's is tied by first tying a standard bowline and then "locking" it. So, again, with no disrespect to Scott or anyone else ( I like both versions very much), I feel it is misleading to call it a modification of Scott's locked bowline.


  JP, the left-handed bowline and the right handed bowline have different topology ! You can not change topology by re-dressing ! We call both of them with the same name, because their shape/geometry/structure is similar, indeed, although their topology is completely different ( and that is a curious instance of two knots called by the same name, although they are different topologically ). However, just imagine what will happen if I propose to call the left-handed bowline by a different name !  :) :) :)

   I have called it as a (slight) modification / variation of the Scot s original bowline, because that is how I had tied it, in the first place, and because the idea is exactly the same : a collar around the nipping turn s rim, and then a tucking through the opening formed by the collar. Scott himself has mentioned the difference, but never denied that it is a variation of his locked bowline, and should be named as such. If we call the one form of the bowline a variation of the other, because the structural difference can only be revealed during ring loading, why we should not call those two locked, by the same mechanism, eye-knots the one a variation of the other, when there is no structural difference, re. this ring loading, ever ?
   Now, Scott noticed that the sharp turn around the nipping turn may be better suited for the intended function, which is to prohibit any slippage of the Tail, and that the wider, smoother curve around 2 rope diameters in the "slight variation / modification" of his initial knot may actually be detrimental to this purpose : the rope can perhaps flow / slip around a wide curve easier than around a sharp one. I am not sure about this, we have to measure it, to see what actually happens.
Title: Re: Figure out an easy TIB tying method for Scott s locked TIB bowline
Post by: James Petersen on August 15, 2013, 06:06:19 PM

  JP, the left-handed bowline and the right handed bowline have different topology ! You can not change topology by re-dressing ! We call both of them with the same name, because their shape/geometry/structure is similar, indeed, although their topology is completely different ( and that is a curious instance of two knots called by the same name, although they are different topologically ). However, just imagine what will happen if I propose to call the left-handed bowline by a different name !  :) :) :)
IIRC, the one is called the bowline, and the other is referred to as a left-handed/cowboy bowline. The names are already different.
Quote
   I have called it as a (slight) modification / variation of the Scot s original bowline, because that is how I had tied it, in the first place, ...
I don't see how you could have managed it as "a (slight) modification / variation of the Scot s original bowline" (sic) since it is based on the cowboy/left handed bowline, not a standard bowline. Can you show the steps you went through? It could be called a "cowboy Scott". ;) But that would be better suited to the lock going around the the TurNip only, as it does in his original knot. It would be more logical to call it a variation of that knot. We could even lock the Eskimo bowline in a similar way and call it an "Eskimo Scott".  ;D ;D ;D
Quote
... If we call the one form of the bowline a variation of the other, because the structural difference can only be revealed during ring loading, why we should not call those two locked, by the same mechanism, eye-knots the one a variation of the other, when there is no structural difference, re. this ring loading, ever ?
 
Again, difference in the knot from which they are derived. The knot in this thread is easily tied, remembered, and showed to others when starting from a cowboy bowline (not so TIB), and impossible when starting from a standard bowline.

-- J:P
Title: Re: Figure out an easy TIB tying method for Scott s locked TIB bowline
Post by: X1 on August 15, 2013, 07:29:48 PM
IIRC, the one is called the bowline, and the other is referred to as a left-handed/cowboy bowline. The names are already different.
   
 
   It is called "Cowboy bowline", by whom ?  By Ashley who believes that it is "dinstictivelly inferior"(sic) from ABoK#1010 ? Or by that ridiculous Wikipedia article, written by some would-like-to-be knot tyer, who believes that the "Eskimo" bowline is a "faulty, insecure"(sic) eye-knot ?  :)  Personally I have never called it as such, and I am sure that billions of people had not called it as such, too... :)
  The commonly used names are right-handed and left-handed bowline. Personally, I follow this convention, which sounds OK to my ears. When we speak about the "Common" bowline, we do not mean the one or the other form of the bowline  - if we do like to be specific, then we add the adjective right-handed or left-handed. Anyway, we had enough with the name game lately - let us not return to it. ( In my mind, I also call it καντηλιτσα, or noeud de chaise, and I would love to learn how it is called in Chinese, for example   :) ). The fact is that the differences between the names are slight, indeed, considered that we speak about two knots of different topology !

   I don't see how you could have managed it as "a (slight) modification / variation of the Scot s original bowline" (sic) since it is based on the cowboy/left handed bowline, not a standard bowline.
   
  The idea of the lock was/is the important thing, not the underlying form of the bowline. I have tried to avoid the sharp turn around one rope diameter that I did nt like in Scott s original knot, and it seemed very natural to me to try to base the same lock on an "other" handed bowline. We do this all the time, with the various Janus bowlines, for example, trying to force the working end to follow wider curves. I do not even pay any attention or remember on which form of the bowline a particular Janus "Common" bowline or a particular Janus "Eskimo" bowline is based on !
 
  It could be called a "cowboy Scott". ;)
  We could even lock the Eskimo bowline in a similar way and call it an "Eskimo Scott".  ;D

    Ask farmer Scott ! Both cows belong to him !  :)  (The "Eskimo" cow has not been born yet.) 

  It would be more logical to call it a variation of that knot
 
   No, to me the main idea is the collar-around-the-rim-of-the-nipping-turn lock. The underlying form of the bowline is irrelevant. The same happens with the Janus bowlines, if we tie one that uses the same locking mechanism, based on the two collars, we do not distinguish it in Janus left-handed Common bowline or Janus right handed Common bowline...The handedness is irrelevant, it is the kind of the lock that it concerns us .
  Two knots that are topologically different can not be re-dressed so the one become identical to the other, by definition. I do not understand why you pay so much attention to this primordial fact !  :)  The important thing in the Scott s locked bowline is the simple lock which does not need a second collar around an eye leg - it uses, as a post, the rim of the nipping turn, and it collars that post, not any eye leg... The TIB variation is just the same idea, where the orientation of the lock in relation to the axis of the knot has been reversed, so the working end can now encircle two strands, and follow a smoother path. I had not noticed at the time I tied this eye-knot that this slight modification / variation produced a knot which happened to be TIB - it was just a "historical accident"  :)  !   

 
Title: Re: Figure out an easy TIB tying method for Scott s locked TIB bowline
Post by: James Petersen on August 16, 2013, 03:42:44 AM
IIRC, the one is called the bowline, and the other is referred to as a left-handed/cowboy bowline. The names are already different.
   
 
   It is called "Cowboy bowline", by whom ?
By me, for one, and I don't use the term in a pejorative sense -- I grew up logging and ranching cattle. Has anyone ever stopped to wonder why cowboys tied the bowline in this manner? (It seems quite obvious, but I have never heard/seen a discussion of it.)
Quote
By Ashley who believes that it is "dinstictivelly inferior"(sic) from ABoK#1010 ?
Not inferior, at least for the purpose in which it is commonly employed by cowboys.
Quote
Or by that ridiculous Wikipedia article, written by some would-like-to-be knot tyer, who believes that the "Eskimo" bowline is a "faulty, insecure"(sic) eye-knot ?
I expect that Scott's lock might improve the security of the Eskimo bowline as well.
Quote
...
  The commonly used names are right-handed and left-handed bowline. Personally, I follow this convention, which sounds OK to my ears. When we speak about the "Common" bowline, we do not mean the one or the other form of the bowline  - if we do like to be specific, then we add the adjective right-handed or left-handed.
I wish to be specific. I believe that it is important from the standpoint of logic and clarity. Call it a modification of the knot which can be modified to tie it. Right-handed and Left handed are fine. Again, this knot cannot be tied starting with a right-handed bowline.
Anyway, we had enough with the name game lately - let us not return to it.
I agree wholeheartedly. I have made my point and will leave it at that.

 -- J:P
Title: Re: Figure out an easy TIB tying method for Scott s locked TIB bowline
Post by: James Petersen on August 16, 2013, 05:26:45 AM
...  No, to me the main idea is the . The underlying form of the bowline is irrelevant.
...
I fully agree. The lock in this thread is a modification of Scott's lock which can be applied to the left-handed/cowboy bowline (and the respective form of the Eskimo bowline), but not the common/sailor bowline. It makes more sense to me to call this mechanism -- the "collar-aound-the-rim-of-the-nipping-turn lock" -- "Scott's lock." And the version used with the knot in this thread could be called.... uh..."Scott's LoX" :o ;D ;D .

-- J:P
Title: Re: Figure out an easy TIB tying method for Scott s locked TIB bowline
Post by: xarax on August 16, 2013, 07:19:21 AM
I don't use the term in a pejorative sense Has anyone ever stopped to wonder why cowboys tied the bowline in this manner? (It seems quite obvious, but I have never heard/seen a discussion of it.)

   Neither do I ! However, the term " left hand bowline", used at ABoK#1034.5, which differs from the term "right-hand bowline" by just one hand  :), describes very adequately ( the difference in ) the position of the two legs ( or hands ) of the bight component. I don not see any reason we should call the "right-hand" bowline as just THE bowline, and use an adjective only for the "other" bowline. Those "two" knots, although they have a different topology, the have a similar geometry/structure, at least until they are ring-loaded ( a rather rare situation )
  Do cowboys use the bowline ? What for ? I understand they need a noose, not a fixed eye-knot ...

I expect that Scott's lock might improve the security of the Eskimo bowline as well.

   Do not compare cows to bulls !  :) The Scott s locked bowline is a locked bowline - if it was not distinctly superior to ANY form of any not-locked bowline, we would have not been talking about it right now...Farmer Scott had this Columbus-egg idea of using as a rigid post, as an anchor for a second collar, the nipping turn itself, its rim, and not an eye leg - and doing this, he got rid of the complications caused by the widening of the angle between the two eye legs and the ring loading.

I wish to be specific. I believe that it is important from the standpoint of logic and clarity. Call it a modification of the knot which can be modified to tie it. Right-handed and Left-handed are fine. Again, this knot cannot be tied starting with a right-handed bowline.

1. I have used this term, "modification", many times, with the same sense : it is a procedure that changes the details of a knot, leaving the main idea unchanged. It does not matter if the modification changes something at the first stages of tying the knot, or at the last stages - as long as it leaves the main idea in place. To my view, Scott s locked bowline is just a bowline where the Working end had been forced to follow a more convoluted path after it has been tucked through the nipping loop for a second time, and, more specifically, where the Working end collars the rim of the nipping turn and then goes against the Standing part, until it leaves the knot s nub.

2. What is the "left-hand" bowline, in relation to the "right-hand" bowline ? I believe we can say that the one is a modification to the other, indeed, because the main idea is the same, although the topology is different - which means that one can not tie any of them by a simple re-dressing of the other, or a re-tucking of the other. You seem to use the term 'modification" with a more specific meaning, that describes something added on something that exists, something tied after something else has been tied already, and should not be untied, something on top of something else. I use it in a somewhat broader sense, which is not related to the temporal sequence of the tying process, but to the spatial arrangement of the strands in the final knot. If two knots are based on the same idea ( as the two forms of the bowline, for example ), even if they are have a different topology, and neither one of those two can be tied by adding something to the other, those two knots can be considered modifications of each other, IMHO.

  Scott s lox ? ? The modification of the original Scott s lock can not be considered anything more than a bell that makes a slightly different sound around the neck of a Scott s cow ! Scott himself prefers the sound of the original bell, but this bell is his, too - it is the cow which wears the bell, not the other way around ! The fact that one should first remove the one bell from the neck of the cow to put on the other, does not change the cow itself, or the relation between the farmer and the cow.  :)

Title: Re: Figure out an easy TIB tying method for Scott s locked TIB bowline
Post by: SS369 on August 16, 2013, 12:51:31 PM
Quickly and then I will retract/delete this.

I'm about ready for some steak.
;-)

SS
Title: Re: Figure out an easy TIB tying method for Scott s locked TIB bowline
Post by: James Petersen on August 16, 2013, 01:53:49 PM

  Scott s lox ? ? The modification of the original Scott s lock can not be considered anything more than a bell that makes a slightly different sound around the neck of a Scott s cow ! Scott himself prefers the sound of the original bell, but this bell is his, too - it is the cow which wears the bell, not the other way around ! The fact that one should first remove the one bell from the neck of the cow to put on the other, does not change the cow itself, or the relation between the farmer and the cow.  :)
Well said. But you have put the bell (a different bell that makes a different sound) on a completely different animal from the same herd. Scott is getting hungry and has to choose which one he is going to eat for dinner. If he eats the wrong one, he might be lacking for butter, cream and fresh milk in a few days, and the bull might be brokenhearted.  But the steers will all be relieved. ;)

-- J:P
Title: Re: Figure out an easy TIB tying method for Scott s locked TIB bowline
Post by: xarax on August 16, 2013, 02:27:16 PM
... you have put the bell (a different bell that makes a different sound) on a completely different animal from the same herd.

   JP, a cow is a cow is a cow, for CowGod s sake ! A cow is not a completely different animal, it is the same animal - the DNA of the one is 99.99 % identical to the DNA of the other. To us humans ( farmers excluded...) cows are similar things...and I suspect that the same is true for a bull !  :)

   Now, it is true that we have an odd / rare situation here : We have two geometrically and structurally similar knots, at least when they are not ring loaded, that have a different topology. We call them with the same name ( "bowline", "white" bowline or "black" bowline" - just like "cow", white or black cow ), even after we have decided that a different topology means a different knot - and most of us don't even notice which of the two we tie in everyday life. I have seen that most fishermen and sailors tie, as a mooring knot, the ABoK#1010, and they look at me with this " what this a.w.o.e is telling me now" look, when I try to explain to them the difference between 1010 and 1034.5... Myself I was not aware of this difference till I set foot in this Forum, a few years ago, although I was tying the bowline ( any of the "two"...) for decades !
    I do not know if there is a problem here, but I suspect this is a very rear situation, and it should not force us to re-consider the basic assumption of all knots, be them mathematical, ideal or physical and practical, that two different topologies mean two different knots. We have soooo many other problems even after this stage ( certain dressings that change the geometry / structure of the underlying knots drastically, so they force us to think of two different knots, albeit of the same topology...) that it is better if we just pass this  for the time being / put it under the rug, if you wish.
     See, for example, the Carrick X bend, at :
http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4128
  and tell me if it is the same or different knot from the Carrick bend...I had not recognised it when I first tied it, and it was Luca that had pointed to me the similarity / identity - (or what else ?) in relation to the Carrick bend.
Title: Re: Figure out an easy TIB tying method for Scott s locked TIB bowline
Post by: James Petersen on August 16, 2013, 03:10:38 PM
... you have put the bell (a different bell that makes a different sound) on a completely different animal from the same herd.

   JP, a cow is a cow is a cow, for CowGod s sake ! A cow is not a completely different animal, it is the same animal - the DNA of the one is 99.99 % identical to the DNA of the other. To us humans ( farmers excluded...) cows are similar things...and I suspect that the same is true for a bull !  :)
Actually, ranchers refer to individual cows/bulls/steers/heifers as "animals". I was using the word in this sense.

Quote
   Now, it is true that we have an odd / rare situation here
....
Rare -- like trying to rubber-band a heifer. :o ::)
Quote
: We have two geometrically and structurally similar knots, at least when they are not ring loaded, that have a different topology. We call them with the same name ( "bowline", "white" bowline or "black" bowline" - just like "cow", white or black cow ), even after we have decided that a different topology means a different knot - and most of us don't even notice which of the two we tie in everyday life.
We have two geometrically and structurally similar animals -- both bovine -- and most people who don't know better call them with the same name. Imagine the confusion if cattlemen referred to every animal in their herds as "cows"! Then you would have people trying to rubber-band heifers! But cattlemen know better and avoid this confusion by referring to individual animals in their herds as "animals" and being clear when talking about steers, bulls, heifers, and "cows." Then when someone who doesn't know better asks, they can easily point out the differences. :)
Quote
I have seen that most fishermen and sailors tie, as a mooring knot, the ABoK#1010, and they look at me with this " what this a.w.o.e is telling me now" look, when I try to explain to them the difference between 1010 and 1034.5... Myself I was not aware of this difference till I set foot in this Forum, a few years ago, although I was tying the bowline ( any of the "two"...) for decades !
    I do not know if there is a problem here, ....
I feel that there is a problem, and that not addressing it will lead to major confusion for those interested in learning about these knots. I fear that they will assume (as I did -- which led to a certain period of intense frustration) that the version in this thread is based on the right-handed/sailors/standard/common -- take your pick -- bowline, which it is not.

-- J:P
Title: Re: Figure out an easy TIB tying method for Scott s locked TIB bowline
Post by: xarax on August 16, 2013, 05:40:10 PM
most people who don't know better call them with the same name. Imagine the confusion if cattlemen referred to every animal in their herds as "cows"!

So, would you propose to call those two topologically different animals, the ABoK#1010 and the ABoK1034.5, by an altogether different name ? Say, the one as bow-line and the other as stern-line ? OK, you go for it, and you start spewing volumes of arguments in favour of it ...This time, I will do the swallowing... :)
The two forms of the bowline are topologically different, but they are still called by the same noun - like eating same piece of beef, only with a different sauce on it. Same happens with the two forms of Scott s locked bowline : same lock, same key, only you have to turn the one key of the one knot clock-wise and the other key of the other knot counter-clockwise.
I do not trust the names of the knots...Too often they are misleading, indeed, and they do not help / allow people to distinguish differences or similarities which the should had noticed right away. However, the human mind works this way - and it may even be the case that the human mind can work, because it can work that way.
Title: Re: Figure out an easy TIB tying method for Scott s locked TIB bowline
Post by: James Petersen on August 16, 2013, 06:21:02 PM
most people who don't know better call them with the same name. Imagine the confusion if cattlemen referred to every animal in their herds as "cows"!
So, would you propose to call those two topologically different animals, the ABoK#1010 and the ABoK1034.5, by an altogether different name ?
No. I have no desire to change the names currently used. What I do propose is calling them by the names they have now, to wit: the bowline/right-handed bowline and the left-handed/cowboy bowline, with the addition of Scott's lock. The purpose of my proposal is to be clear about which of these can be modified into the knot which is the subject of this thread ( by using the mechanism of the lock in this thread, your modification of Scott's lock, which can only be used as a modification of a left-handed/cowboy bowline.
Quote
...
The two forms of the bowline are topologically different, but they are still called by the same noun ...
Actually cows/bulls/steers/heifers/and oxen are all different in their own ways, but are all called cows, when the distinction is unimportant. In certain instances, it is important that distinctions be made (castration, milking, and breeding, to
name a few). In the case of the lock which is the subject of this thread, the distinction is important.  The Scott's lock applied to a right-hand bowline is not the same as the Scott's lock applied to a cowboy bowline is not the same as a Scott's lock applied to Eskimo bowlines (with the tail on the inside or outside).
Quote
- like eating same piece of beef, only with a different sauce on it.
...
Wrong. The beef is not the same. The meat of bulls and steers is different. Bulls (and oxen) are much more muscular and tend to have stringier, tougher meat than steers. The meat of calves (known as veal) is the tenderest of all. And you can't get veal from a 5-year-old bull.

Quote
...
I do not trust the names of the knots...Too often they are misleading, indeed, and they do not help / allow people to distinguish differences or similarities which the should had noticed right away.
Precisely! And what I hope to achieve by my proposal is clarity, not obfuscation, which I believe calling this knot simply a "simple modification of a Scott's locked bowline" causes through lack of precision. Scott did not propose that his modification be made to a left-handed/cowboy bowline, although it can be applied to that knot. The the current modification cannot be applied to a right-handed bowline, and I believe that this fact should be reflected in the name.

-- J:P
Title: Re: Figure out an easy TIB tying method for Scott s locked TIB bowline
Post by: xarax on August 16, 2013, 06:47:29 PM
   I agree we should be more precise / descriptive when choosing names for new ( or even old ! ) knots - although the two forms of Scott s locked bowline are only a "detail" in this. See what is happening in the four different variations of the "Eskimo" bowline : they do not even have names !  :)
Title: Re: Figure out an easy TIB tying method for Scott s locked TIB bowline
Post by: James Petersen on August 16, 2013, 07:10:50 PM
   I agree we should be more precise / descriptive when choosing names for new ( or even old ! ) knots - although the two forms of Scott s locked bowline are only a "detail" in this. See what is happening in the four different variations of the "Eskimo" bowline : they do not even have names !  :)
Only a detail when referring to Scott's modification. I am sure that when Scott goes climbing with his family/friends and introduces them to this knot, he surely says something like, "First tie a bowline (meaning a right-handed bowline) and then do this..." and he shows them how to tuck the tail and arrive at his modification. If he wanted to show them how versatile this modification is, he could teach them about right-handed and left-handed bowlines and how the came mod can be used on both.

Surely if you were showing/teaching/telling someone how to tie this knot which is the subject of this thread, your mod of his mod, so to speak -- not tying in the bight mind you, that's really complicated -- you would tell them to start by tying a left-handed bowline and, continue from there.

Now my lesson would probably go something like this:

Alright, kids, do you see this rope? Well, the rope is a tree and look here (twist the rope to create a turNip) -- this is the hole, and this (the working end) is the rabbit. Now watch as the rabbit runs out of the hole, runs around the tree and back into the hole. Now we have just tied a knot called a bowline

Now look at your bowlnes. Some of you have bowlines where the rabbit is inside the loop don't you? Well, the loop is the meadow and your rabbit is home. There are a couple of you whose rabbits are not inside the meadow, aren't there? Well these little rabbits are out on the range with the cowboys and you have just tied cowboy bowlines.

Now when your little rabbits are running around outside of the hole, they have to be very careful and watch out for the evil X-man who will shoot them with his machine gun and feed them to his python! ....  ;D

-- J:P
Title: Re: Figure out an easy TIB tying method for Scott s locked TIB bowline
Post by: James Petersen on August 19, 2013, 11:51:13 AM
Some photos and a video of the way I do it.

Video at: https://archive.org/details/CwbyBowlineScottLoX01 (https://archive.org/details/CwbyBowlineScottLoX01) .
Title: Re: Figure out an easy TIB tying method for Scott s locked TIB bowline
Post by: James Petersen on August 19, 2013, 12:00:13 PM
5/7 -- 7/7
Title: Re: Figure out an easy TIB tying method for Scott s locked TIB bowline
Post by: Luca on August 19, 2013, 12:08:06 PM
Thank you James,
I like your method because, unlike as when using the methods proposed here by kd8eeh and me, the tail and the standing part they find themselves in a natural way in the right position relative to one another.
Title: Re: Figure out an easy TIB tying method for Scott s locked TIB bowline
Post by: xarax on August 19, 2013, 02:00:41 PM
  Nice.
  I believe you do not need the second picture ( the third picture is enough - and it might well be the first, because it just shows a slipped bight, a very familiar image to knot tyers ). On the contrary, you should use this saving and better add another image in between the third and the fourth, when you will show the formation of the bight on the white segment, and how you put in the place shown in the fourth image. To my view, the sequence is too slow between the first and the third image, and too fast between the third and the fouth.
Title: Re: Figure out an easy TIB tying method for Scott s locked TIB bowline
Post by: James Petersen on August 19, 2013, 07:56:34 PM
Another series. Any better?

-- J:P
Title: Re: Figure out an easy TIB tying method for Scott s locked TIB bowline
Post by: James Petersen on August 19, 2013, 07:57:55 PM
4 more.
Title: Re: Figure out an easy TIB tying method for Scott s locked TIB bowline
Post by: James Petersen on August 19, 2013, 07:58:43 PM
Last of 9.
Title: Re: Figure out an easy TIB tying method for Scott s locked TIB bowline
Post by: xarax on August 19, 2013, 08:13:19 PM
   In all your 9 pictures/stages, the white eye leg is at the lower side of the frame - except in the second ! I believe you should show the transformation from the second to the third stage with some other way. that will not involve a flip of the whole eye, like the one you show in this series. This was the point one could lose you in the previous demonstration, and, although now things have been improved, I feel that there is still a discontinuity, a "jump" there, that you can iron out even more.
Title: Re: Figure out an easy TIB tying method for Scott s locked TIB bowline
Post by: James Petersen on August 20, 2013, 06:49:01 PM
Not exactly on topic, but I don't have enough hands! I actually considered threading a wire through the rope to make it easier to make it hold in certain positions. Then I looked up clay animation on Wikipedia to see if I could get some pointers on stop-motion animation (which making these series of photos seems like).

Low and behold, they use wire frames (called armatures in claymation). Does anyone have experience in doing the like with strings/ropes for purposes of photography?

-- J:P
Title: Re: Figure out an easy TIB tying method for Scott s locked TIB bowline
Post by: xarax on August 20, 2013, 07:42:39 PM
   THAT is it !  :) Congratulations ! Now we have a smoothly evolving series of pictures, which pose no problem to the average knot tyer to follow. I can not say how many of them are absolutely necessary, and how many can be omitted or merged with other, before or after them. However, the basic spinal cord of the sequence is fine !
   ( When I was young, there were some flexible rulers (1) that had a core made of lead, so they could easily bend and remain in the position they were put. However, I think that the world had advanced since then a little bit ! You can draw with a CAD program whatever you like, very easily - you only have to draw the path of the rope in 3D using NURBS, and then use other easily implemented tools to "feed" this path, so it gets a certain radius you like, that will show the ropes at the front without hiding the ropes at the back too much. Those curves can be controlled with "control points", and drawn so they resemble "elastic curves", a "natural" kind of curves we see when we bend flexible elastic materials ).

1. They are still there ! Search the Google Images for "flexible curve" :
   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_spline
   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lesbian_rule
   http://www.amazon.com/C-THRU-FLEXIBLE-20-RULER/dp/B002BGRFV8
Title: Re: Figure out an easy TIB tying method for Scott s locked TIB bowline
Post by: SS369 on August 20, 2013, 11:51:23 PM
Hi JP.

Off topic reply:
Inserting a wire for this purpose will be a chore and then you have to arrange things smoothly to take the picture.
My offered suggestion is to place some soft board (Styrofoam or cork or whatever) behind the backing sheet (in your current photos blue) then use small push pins in strategic locations. The small heads will be lightly noticeable (who cares?), but inconsequential. Or you can edit them with a dab of color (More work!).

Thanks for the pictures BTW!
You too X!
 :)

SS
Title: Re: Figure out an easy TIB tying method for Scott s locked TIB bowline
Post by: alanleeknots on September 14, 2013, 02:06:17 AM
 Hi All,
         I have a variation of Scott s locked TIB bowline here, not that much different then Xarax had presented at page 1, But     this one can be tie in one continuos motion.  when I free again, I will make a video for it.
         
         謝謝   alan lee
         



               
Title: Re: Figure out an easy TIB tying method for Scott s locked TIB bowline
Post by: alanleeknots on September 15, 2013, 12:58:10 AM
Hi All,
        I have another variation of Scott s locked TIB bowline, I think I stuck with words "knots that are so inferior to their classmates",so I didn't included it in the last post, and I look at it again, this loop is more than good enough for genaral use and also can be tie in one continuos motion. I guess why not?

        謝謝   alan lee
         
Title: Re: Figure out an easy TIB tying method for Scott s locked TIB bowline
Post by: Luca on September 16, 2013, 01:24:57 AM
Hi,

Some time ago, using a method that begins in the same way as the method proposed by me for  the Scott's locked variation in this thread,I obtained this other variation, which, in waiting for the new video by Alan Lee, I add "to the collection" (I  have some doubt on the behavior of  the nipping turn if the collar is not tight:some thought about it?),as soon as I can, I will attach some diagrams for the method.

                                                                                                         Bye!
(http://)
Title: Re: Figure out an easy TIB tying method for Scott s locked TIB bowline
Post by: alanleeknots on September 16, 2013, 07:48:24 AM
Hi Luca and All,

                       I see your loop is right hand version,  a quick repond to your, I have this right hand version.
                      Just wonder if  this one have little more secure then yosemite bowline.

                       謝謝   alan lee
                       
                      P/S   I am working out towm at the moment, may be few more weeks than I can go home to do the video.

                      " Sorry, forget to mention this is not a TIB bowline."
Title: Re: Figure out an easy TIB tying method for Scott s locked TIB bowline
Post by: Luca on September 19, 2013, 10:17:16 PM
Hi Alan,

The Bowline you show above would seem to be the real righthanded version of Scott's locked TIB,it is a pity that it is not TIB.I like it, I do not know if it is better than the Yosemite:perhaps;I remember that here somewhere Dan Lehman defined the Yosemite as"infamous", if I remember correctly, I do not know if it is due to the fact that it tends to lead itself to some errors of dressing as shown in the "An Analysis of Bowlines" paper( http://www.paci.com.au/knots.php ) by agent_smith.
However, I add to the collection also another righthanded variation of the Scott's locked, similar to those that you show above and at reply #46(I think that all three are better than what I have shown at reply #47),but so far I have not developed a TIB method for this!(today prevailed force of habit, so I'll show by the traditional view)

                                                                                                                  Bye!
(http://)
Title: Re: Figure out an easy TIB tying method for Scott s locked TIB bowline
Post by: alanleeknots on November 01, 2013, 12:46:57 PM
Hi All,
 
        Eventually have a week off, and got the videos done. hope you like it.
       
        謝謝   alan lee       alanleeknots at youtube.
Title: Re: Figure out an easy TIB tying method for Scott s locked TIB bowline
Post by: xarax on November 01, 2013, 01:24:21 PM

Version 2 [TIB version] starts its life as a bowline with the tail outside and so we are not truly Cow to Cow.

   Luca (1) has shown that the Scot s TIB locked bowline can be tied in a left- as well as a right-handed version, so the argument above does not apply. Both cows are cows, and their tails tell the same thing (2)(3). 
1. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4517.msg29939#msg29939 (http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4517.msg29939#msg29939)
2. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/lifestyle/pets/10418004/How-your-dogs-wagging-tail-can-reveal-its-emotions.html (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/lifestyle/pets/10418004/How-your-dogs-wagging-tail-can-reveal-its-emotions.html)
3. http://www.cell.com/current-biology/retrieve/pii/S0960982213011433 (http://www.cell.com/current-biology/retrieve/pii/S0960982213011433)
Title: Re: Figure out an easy TIB tying method for Scott s locked TIB bowline
Post by: Festy on November 01, 2013, 09:05:41 PM
Hi All,
 
        Eventually have a week off, and got the videos done. hope you like it.
       
        謝謝   alan lee       alanleeknots at youtube.

Eric, is it necessary to lock the Water Bowline?

Thanks,
F
Title: Re: Figure out an easy TIB tying method for Scott s locked TIB bowline
Post by: SS369 on November 01, 2013, 11:32:48 PM
Hi All,
 
        Eventually have a week off, and got the videos done. hope you like it.
       
        謝謝   alan lee       alanleeknots at youtube.

Nice work Alan!
Thank you for sharing.

SS
Title: The two forms of Scott s locked TIB bowline.
Post by: xarax on November 08, 2013, 02:47:38 PM
   To my view, the "right hand" form ( at the right of the attached pictures ) seems preferable, because the ( continuation of the ) tail is further squeezed in between the Standing part s first curve and the returning eye leg.
Title: Re: Figure out an easy TIB tying method for Scott s locked TIB bowline
Post by: SS369 on November 08, 2013, 03:17:43 PM
In another view: One reactionary difference I see with this workable variation is that when using stiff static (some dynamic as well) rope, the nipping part has a tendency to open and loosen under no or light loading.
Not so with the original (left side) and it is one step simpler as well.

SS
Title: Re: Figure out an easy TIB tying method for Scott s locked TIB bowline
Post by: xarax on November 08, 2013, 05:45:45 PM
  You can say that the "left handed" bowline, at the left, is more "simple" than the "right handed", at the right, only in the sense that the path of the line is less convoluted in the former than in the later - it is this 8-shaped part which forms the collar around the rim of the nipping loop that seems to cause the difference you have noticed. However, to see what you mean I had to tie the two knots on the most stiff rope I have, which resist to turn even around three rope diameters ! Otherwise both variations have the same number of tucks, same topology ( "simpler" than the topology of the original, non-TIB version ! ), and are equally easy to remember how to tie as end-of-line locked bowlines. As TIB bowlines, I have no idea which is simpler - I hope that Luca or JP will enlighten us on this...
  The thing I like in those TIB bowlines is that the first curves of the standing parts are very wide. ( I do not know other so simple TIB bowlines where the nipping loop encircles three rope diameters (*) - which, supposedly, would be beneficial to the knot s strength.) So, if we chose them for strength, any tendency to remain "open" = not-compact under no or light loading would not be an important issue.

(*) An interesting single TIB bowline - although a little bulky, due to the two collars around the standing end -  conceptually simple, and with a wide nipping loop ( that encircles four rope diameters ), is the bowline-with-a-bight ( ABoK#1074) where we make the ( reeved-through-the-nipping-loop ) second bight shrink around the first bight.
Title: Re: Figure out an easy TIB tying method for Scott s locked TIB bowline
Post by: SS369 on November 09, 2013, 01:32:33 AM
It makes me wonder if indeed a knot of this type is actually stronger (breaking resistance) if the nipping part encircles three diameters versus two.
In my mind I envision more movement of the area under the greatest strain and that will lead to increased friction related damage.
The original premise for the simple standard bowline lock was and is better security. It helped with resisting ring type loading.
If it added strength, all the better.

SS
Title: Re: Figure out an easy TIB tying method for Scott s locked TIB bowline
Post by: Festy on November 09, 2013, 02:50:42 PM
It makes me wonder if indeed a knot of this type is actually stronger (breaking resistance) if the nipping part encircles three diameters versus two.
In my mind I envision more movement of the area under the greatest strain and that will lead to increased friction related damage.
The original premise for the simple standard bowline lock was and is better security. It helped with resisting ring type loading.
If it added strength, all the better.

SS

What, please, is the 'standard bowline lock', SS?

Thanks,
F
Title: Re: Figure out an easy TIB tying method for Scott s locked TIB bowline
Post by: SS369 on November 10, 2013, 03:30:45 PM
Hi Festy.

I am sorry that I didn't do that better. Here is a link to the thread about a "simple lock for the bowline". http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=19.msg20538#msg20538 (http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=19.msg20538#msg20538)
I offered a consideration there that I am referring to. A simple lock for the standard bowline.

SS
Title: Re: Figure out an easy TIB tying method for Scott s locked TIB bowline
Post by: alanleeknots on December 11, 2016, 09:26:46 PM
Hi All,
         I have a video how to tie this left hand Scott s locked bowline
           謝謝   alan lee    alanleeknots at you tube.