International Guild of Knot Tyers Forum

General => Practical Knots => Topic started by: Festy on July 25, 2013, 04:14:51 PM

Title: Saving life knot
Post by: Festy on July 25, 2013, 04:14:51 PM
You're friend is trapped at the bottom of a cliff and the tide is coming in. He is uninjured, so you are going to throw him down a rope with a loop tied in it so he can put it around himself to be lifted up to safety.

Which knot would you form this loop with, that will be safe and secure (will not spill, reform or collapse no matter what forces are exerted on it), and is easy to tie properly?

Cheers,
F
Title: Re: Saving life knot
Post by: roo on July 25, 2013, 04:18:09 PM
You're friend is trapped at the bottom of a cliff and the tide is coming in. He is uninjured, so you are going to throw him down a rope with a loop tied in it so he can put it around himself to be lifted up to safety.

Which knot would you form this loop with, that will be safe and secure (will not spill, reform or collapse no matter what forces are exerted on it), and is easy to tie properly?

Cheers,
F
Here are some options:
http://notableknotindex.webs.com/triplebowline.html

One option is discussed in the last paragraph.

However, if time is limited, and the rope is barely long enough, you might have to settle for a simple loop (http://notableknotindex.webs.com/zeppelinloop.html) for the person's foot and hope they can hold on.   ;)
Title: Re: Saving life knot
Post by: knot4u on July 25, 2013, 06:34:05 PM
Karash Double Loop.  That's at the top of my head right now, and it's second nature to me.

The more important consideration is the anchor at the top.  If you lose the rope up top, your friend has a good chance of dying.  However, if you have a good anchor up top and throw down just the rope, his life is not over at that point.  He could tie a suitable knot, or you could pull the rope back up and tie something.

Depending on how strong your friend is, you might tie a series of stopper knots for him to climb the rope.  I could ascend a rope in this manner if I'm not already exhausted.  My daily workout includes doing pull-ups.

If your friend is not strong, you have to consider how you are pulling your friend up.  Are you using a car?  If not, you may consider using a Trucker Hitch to obtain a mechanical advantage to get your friend up.  Your friend acts like the first anchor in the Trucker Hitch.  The rock (or whatever) up top is the second anchor.  For example, you tie a Karash Double Loop (or whatever) in the standing end, loop the rope around the second anchor (rock), tie a Span Loop in the line at the appropriate location, loop the working end through the Span Loop, and then send down to your friend the standing end, which includes the Karash Double Loop (or whatever).

EDIT: Another option for mechanical advantage is to rig a Spanish Windlass somehow.

(http://i1221.photobucket.com/albums/dd468/iq201/Public/image_zps18c94c4f.jpg) (http://s1221.photobucket.com/user/iq201/media/Public/image_zps18c94c4f.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Saving life knot
Post by: SS369 on July 26, 2013, 12:28:39 AM
You're friend is trapped at the bottom of a cliff and the tide is coming in. He is uninjured, so you are going to throw him down a rope with a loop tied in it so he can put it around himself to be lifted up to safety.

Which knot would you form this loop with, that will be safe and secure (will not spill, reform or collapse no matter what forces are exerted on it), and is easy to tie properly?

Cheers,
F

Hello Festy.

I am hesitant to suggest any particular loop for rescue scenarios, so many variables to consider (!).
I will say that if your victim is not going to give aid in the ascent then a three loop combination should be considered. One double loop knot for the legs (one loop per leg) and one loop for the chest (under arms) area to keep the person vertical during your lifting them.
In fact, I would offer this same suggestion if they were going to climb a bit.

Most importantly, the tyer should know what they are doing! Double/triple checking what they are going to lower down. And it will have to make sense to the recipient so they can apply it.

SS
Title: Re: Saving life knot
Post by: knot4u on July 26, 2013, 10:53:28 AM
I edited my last post to include another option for mechanical advantage. By the way, this does seem like the more difficult problem to solve. After you throw down the rope, then what?
Title: Re: Saving life knot
Post by: roo on July 26, 2013, 02:53:39 PM
I edited my last post to include another option for mechanical advantage. By the way, this does seem like the more difficult problem to solve. After you throw down the rope, then what?
Festy seems to omit that issue for now, but it's possible that you'd have multiple people in an emergency rescue helping with the weight.
Title: Re: Saving life knot
Post by: Festy on July 26, 2013, 03:36:20 PM
Ok guys, just to expand the scenario a bit:

As it happens there is the complete membership of a tug-of-war team  ;D with me at the top of the cliff, so no worries about hauling him up, but I'm the only one who can tie the knot.

My pal at the bottom of the cliff cannot tie knots either, but he is uninjured and very fit so he will be able to assist in his rescue.

The tide is coming in and in fact is already up to his knees, so when I throw down the rope to him it most likely will get wet.

I will tie the loop around myself before I throw it down to ensure it will be a snug fit for him (he's my twin brother)  ;)

Now the question is; which knot should I use to create the loop. It must be easy to remember to tie, be very safe and secure, easy to untie afterwards (the tug-of-war team own the rope) and no matter what forces happen to be applied during the rescue it must have no tendency to collapse, spill, untie or jam. Remember now, just 1 loop only!

And thanks for all the replies so far.

Cheers guys,
F

Title: Re: Saving life knot
Post by: roo on July 26, 2013, 04:25:19 PM
Now the question is; which knot should I use to create the loop. It must be easy to remember to tie, be very safe and secure, easy to untie afterwards (the tug-of-war team own the rope) and no matter what forces happen to be applied during the rescue it must have no tendency to collapse, spill, untie or jam. Remember now, just 1 loop only!
A number of loops could satisfy your requirements:

http://notableknotindex.webs.com/zeppelinloop.html
http://notableknotindex.webs.com/waterbowline.html

Using only one loop will make things more precarious for the victim.  I'm not sure where you plan on putting this one loop on the person's body, but you might try it on yourself first.  You may be surprised at how uncomfortable it can be.  Also, if the strain on the rope isn't too high, jamming may not necessarily be a big problem if you wanted to use other knots.

One advantage of using something that approximates a body harness is that it more easily allows the victim to assist in climbing if conditions permit.
Title: Re: Saving life knot
Post by: SS369 on July 27, 2013, 12:25:38 AM
Friends don't let friends not know knots!

Since you've refined the qualifications of this explorative post to a single loop, I would go with a single bowline with a simple lock. Maybe a Portuguese style bowline where the loop is augmented with round turns to help spread the load over a wider chest area. Not truly a multiple loop knot, imo, and adding a simple lock.

The loop would have to be sized to fit the chest area and not be able to pass the arm's pits under load.
It will be extremely uncomfortable and dangerous to your friend, so I am hoping the situation allows for the rope to be just a backup to that person's climbing to safety.

If one of your tug o war buddies ( get them tied off as well) should happen to dislodge a rock and it dings the victim in the head and he gets knocked unconscious, at least he will be head up for the remainder of this folly.

This is not a recommendation by any means, just an exploration of a hypothetical scenario.
If real, You will be liable in the event of failure or injury, regardless of claimed friendship.

Friends don't let friends not know knots!

SS
Title: Re: Saving life knot
Post by: knot4u on July 27, 2013, 01:11:23 AM
I can't recommend what you should tie, but I would still tie the Karash Double Loop with a Bowline for around the waist.  After at least one year of not tying it, I still know how to do it.  So, I'd say it is committed to memory.  This video describes it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6EyfYyJkZss

EDIT:  Wait.  What?  Just one loop only?  Sorry, I can't help you.  You're talking about a single loop of rope, not a thick car tire.  That is going to be painful and dangerous for your twin.  I'd prefer to tie a series of stopper knots for him to climb up before I yank him up on a single loop.  After all, you did say he's very fit.
Title: Re: Saving life knot
Post by: TMCD on July 27, 2013, 02:10:09 AM
A single loop knot won't do the job. A good multi loop option would be the triple bowline and it's EASY to tie and remember which is ultra critical in your described situation. It can be tied at the end of a rope or in the middle of a rope. The triple bowline can be made into a full harness, do I win the prize?
Title: Re: Saving life knot
Post by: Wed on July 27, 2013, 02:33:05 AM
In reality, you would let the friend perish. Not knowing which knot is the right one to tie is worse than even the most lenient of lawyers.

I am ever so slightly sarcastic of course. If all else fail, ie. getting professional help, please do what you can to rescue the poor bugger.
Title: Re: Saving life knot
Post by: knot4u on July 27, 2013, 03:44:30 PM
Would a triple Bowline really work well in this situation? I can see how a loop around each leg helps. However, what good is the third loop if it's not tight around the torso? If it's loose, does the third loop do anything besides confuse your friend?

Also, you can't get the third loop tight if you tie it beforehand, right? This goes for any triple loop, even the harness I describe above.

Has anyone here tried lifting themselves in the air by using a double or triple loop? This is an interesting enough problem that I'll be doing some experimenting...
Title: Re: Saving life knot
Post by: knot4u on July 27, 2013, 03:55:54 PM
This is a fun mental exercise, but realistically there is going to be more equipment than just a rope, given the facts. For example, somebody (or everybody) is going to have a backpack. Any competent knot tier should be able to rig a harness using the rope and backpack(s) so that your twin can be lifted in First Class comfort.
Title: Re: Saving life knot
Post by: Festy on July 27, 2013, 04:41:20 PM
Guys, I've tried the single loop situation in my yard using 8 mil rope and I must say it's very uncomfortable as some have pointed out. However, if your life was at stake, and with adrenalin running high, it might be a different story perhaps.

Nonetheless, we will abandon the single loop exercise because SS369 threw a spanner in the works when he posited the loose boulder falling and rendering my poor twin brother unconscious scenario.

Therefore, two loops or three loops now seems to be the choice, nobody present has a backpack or similar so the successful rescue has to depend on the rope alone.

So, what method to use? The Karash Double loop? the triple bowline? Some combination, that once in position, will allow him to be be hauled to safety, conscious or unconscious.

And remember, it must be tied/preassembled by me, at the top of the cliff.

I'm depending on you, my learned friends, to point me in the right direction!  ;)
Title: Re: Saving life knot
Post by: knot4u on July 27, 2013, 10:27:48 PM
Well, people already gave their answers for multi-loops before you derailed your own thread to discuss a single loop.

Another option is a Karash Double Loop plus a stopper above. That way, your twin can split his weight between pulling up and having his legs supported by the double loop. This option is both easy to tie and intuitive to use.
Title: Re: Saving life knot
Post by: SS369 on July 27, 2013, 10:33:03 PM
Would a triple Bowline really work well in this situation? I can see how a loop around each leg helps. However, what good is the third loop if it's not tight around the torso? If it's loose, does the third loop do anything besides confuse your friend?

Also, you can't get the third loop tight if you tie it beforehand, right? This goes for any triple loop, even the harness I describe above.

Has anyone here tried lifting themselves in the air by using a double or triple loop? This is an interesting enough problem that I'll be doing some experimenting...

Yes, I have used a double loop knot for the lower sit harness and a single loop for the chest area. This upper loop does not have to be tight on the torso, just enough to remain high enough to keep the person vertical in the event of a fall. If there were only leg loops the person would flip head down if for any reason their hands let go of the rope (for whatever reason). It doesn't take too long for that person to have a possible medical situation once they are oriented like that.

I would find a triple loop bowline a challenge to size correctly and to put on. Let alone a newbie in trouble.

A bowline with double loops (on a bight or with a bight adding a simple lock) used for the legs and a single locked bowline for the chest loop. Easy to remember and will do the OP's hypothetical task.

SS
Title: Re: Saving life knot
Post by: X1 on July 28, 2013, 12:24:07 AM
   This "Karash Double loop" keeps seducing people without any reason...It should be something in the (exotic) name !  :) 
   It is just one of the dozens double eyeknots we already have, and who knows how many more one can easily imagine that can be tied... Many of them are stable, safe, TIB, PET, whatever, but I an not aware of any comparative examination or test between them. The fact that "it works", and it has been tested, is very good, of course - but it is not sufficient to rule out all the other double eyeknots that have not been compared to it, ever ..
Title: Re: Saving life knot
Post by: alpineer on July 28, 2013, 09:10:32 AM
The Tresse Bowline on a Bight makes a rock solid twin-eye knot.
Title: Re: Saving life knot
Post by: X1 on July 28, 2013, 12:54:45 PM
The Tresse Bowline on a Bight makes a rock solid twin-eye knot.
 
   ANY of the many safe bowlines we have can be tied on a bight, i.e. as a double line knots, and be rock-solid ! That is what I was trying to say : We have more double eye (= two eye ) bowlines than we will ever be able to compare and test...keeping this slooow pace we compare and test knots !  :) Why one has to chose the Karash or the Tresse double eyeknots ? Until we will manage to make up our mind, in the same situation Buridan s ass has placed itself, our poor friend would be swimming against the tide s current !  :)  (1)
   
   1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buridan's_ass (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buridan's_ass)
Title: Re: Saving life knot
Post by: knot4u on July 28, 2013, 05:25:55 PM
This is not a situation where security is going to be an issue with any of the knots selected. So, the recommendation should be based on easy of remembrance, functionality, ease of tying under stress, and other factors. The knot selection selection should be one that you know RIGHT NOW without looking it up.  If you are a knot person and you have to go look up a loop, then that is not a good knot to recommend. If you didn't remember, then you can't expect somebody else to remember it, especially if the person does not study knots as much as you do.

By the way, apparently the Karash Double Loop (KDL) is a type of Bowline and is not a new invention. According to Wikipedia, the discussion is on this site somewhere. I throw that out there because some people seem to be unwilling to use a knot if it's not a type of Bowline.

Also, Google led me to published results of strength tests of various loops, including the KDL. It wasn't hard to find. I am not posting the link here because I think the results have little relevance here. Also, the KDL did quite well on the test, and so I don't want the discussion to stray off into irrelevant arguments about why the test is unreliable. Like security, strength is not much of a determining factor for recommendation, especially if you had to go look the knot up to remember it.  All the knots recommended here are strong enough and secure enough. It should be pretty obvious if a knot discussed here does not have a minimal level of security or strength.
Title: Re: Saving life knot
Post by: X1 on July 28, 2013, 05:49:20 PM
I think we have been on the same point long ago !  :)

http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3571.msg20408#msg20408 (http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3571.msg20408#msg20408)
http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3571.msg20618#msg20618 (http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3571.msg20618#msg20618)
http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3571.msg20629#msg20629 (http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3571.msg20629#msg20629)
Title: Re: Saving life knot
Post by: knot4u on July 28, 2013, 06:00:28 PM
X1, is it asking too much for you to recommend a loop for the situation in the original post? I figure, if you're out there with this guy, you should be able to recommend a good knot in less than 10 seconds. You've had a few days now. So, you should be all good to go.
Title: Re: Saving life knot
Post by: X1 on July 28, 2013, 07:33:39 PM
X1, is it asking too much for you to recommend a loop for the situation in the original post ? 
  I would nt hesitate to participate in any blah blahing about anything, as you know !  :)  However, I still take a few things very seriously, and I can not enjoy / I can not imagine them, as a "game". I would nt say anything that could be considered as a "recommendation", or even as a learned advice, by somebody on this issue. I am no rescue worker, I do not have any experience of such life threatening situations, I pray I will never have, and I can not speak lightly about the horrible "scenario" of the present thread. In the referred thread/posts, I have written what I did/do when I was/am on board of a sailboat, and have to teach to some members of the crew / visitors a double eye loop - in case it would be needed to help a person on the level of the water. The knot shown there is very easy to remember and to tie ( certainly easier than the Karash double loop !  :) ), it is tiable on two bights and in the bight, and it is the simplest knot I am aware of where, given its simplicity, the two eyes are communicating in such a small degree. If there will be any detailed systematic evaluation of all possible double loops, regarding any required quality, by professional rescue workers who know a zillion things more than I do on this issue, I will be happy to follow their advice !  :) 
Title: Re: Saving life knot
Post by: knot4u on July 28, 2013, 09:01:54 PM
In my years of studying knots, I've never seen or heard a rescuer compare and contrast knots. They simply say, "Here is the knot to use," and that's that.  What's ironic is that I could post videos of rescuers giving their quick recommendations, but their recommendations are summarily ignored in favor of endless nitpicking. Anyway, rescuers oftentimes aren't using the "best" knot but rather the knot that they remember and that just works every time.

I have not recommended any knot here either, but I did state the knot I would use if I were faced with the decision right now. What's funny is that "easy to remember" is highly subjective. Of all the knots I know, the KDL is one of the easiest to remember. As long as I can remember how to tie a Fig 8 loop, I can remember the KDL.  For me, it's easier to remember than a plain Bowline.  Anyway, I guess everybody's brain works differently.
Title: Re: Saving life knot
Post by: X1 on July 28, 2013, 09:46:16 PM
In my years of studying knots, I've never seen or heard a rescuer compare and contrast knots.
  I am sure you understand how wrong is this...
   I guess everybody's brain works differently.
  Moreover, after a certain age, somebody s brain find it hard to work, period.  :)  Enjoy youth ! It lasts for a brief second, then it leaves without a notice and does not come back...
Title: Re: Saving life knot
Post by: Festy on July 28, 2013, 10:20:48 PM
I've been practising the KDL today and I've noticed that every so often I do something wrong because the whole thing slides instead of locking, but I'm damned if I can see where I'm making the error.

Frustrating  :(
Title: Re: Saving life knot
Post by: X1 on July 28, 2013, 10:26:49 PM
I've noticed that every so often I do something wrong
Festy, please; tie the knot shown in
http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3571.msg20408#msg20408 (http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3571.msg20408#msg20408)
It will take you one minute - five, in the worst case...Tell me if it will ever happen to you to tie it wrongly - because I claim that you can not !  :)
Title: Re: Saving life knot
Post by: knot4u on July 29, 2013, 07:02:38 AM
I've been practising the KDL today and I've noticed that every so often I do something wrong because the whole thing slides instead of locking, but I'm damned if I can see where I'm making the error.

Frustrating  :(

Pay attention to which side you're flipping the loop over the Fig 8.  You will notice that there is only one way to flip it that makes logical sense.  After you understand, you should not make the error again.
Title: Re: Saving life knot
Post by: alpineer on July 29, 2013, 09:44:48 AM
Hi Festy,
You're grabbing the wrong part of the Eight when this happens. Be sure to grab that part of the Eight which is directly connected to the Loop.
Title: Re: Saving life knot
Post by: roo on July 29, 2013, 03:03:00 PM
I've been practising the KDL today and I've noticed that every so often I do something wrong because the whole thing slides instead of locking, but I'm damned if I can see where I'm making the error.

Frustrating  :(
If you keep things too loose as you tie it, it can capsize into a shrinking double loop.  I've brought this up before (http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1953.msg13611#msg13611) as a problem, but I don't know for sure if it's what you're experiencing.
Title: Re: Saving life knot
Post by: Festy on July 29, 2013, 09:40:14 PM
I've noticed that every so often I do something wrong
Festy, please; tie the knot shown in
http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3571.msg20408#msg20408 (http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3571.msg20408#msg20408)
It will take you one minute - five, in the worst case...Tell me if it will ever happen to you to tie it wrongly - because I claim that you can not !  :)

X1, the knot is easy to tie, but only if I place the rope on the ground first.

It seems to be a very secure knot.

F
Title: Re: Saving life knot
Post by: Festy on July 29, 2013, 09:44:47 PM
Knot4U, alpineer and roo,

I think I was using the correct method to form the loops, but sometimes it would go wrong somehow.

However, I shall endeavour to persevere!  :D

F
Title: Re: Saving life knot
Post by: Festy on July 29, 2013, 09:47:38 PM
One other thing guys, in the youtube video of the Karash Harness, I cannot see exactly how the demonstrator is tying the loops around his waist and chest.

Any advice on that problem.

thanks,

F
Title: Re: Saving life knot
Post by: knot4u on July 29, 2013, 10:06:35 PM
One other thing guys, in the youtube video of the Karash Harness, I cannot see exactly how the demonstrator is tying the loops around his waist and chest.

Any advice on that problem.

thanks,

F

Those are Bowlines.  The trick is you use both strands of rope for the nipping part of each Bowline, but you use just the one strand (working end) to go around your torso.  The strand that goes around your torso is the loop of the Bowline.
Title: Re: Saving life knot
Post by: Festy on July 31, 2013, 09:45:33 PM


Those are Bowlines.  The trick is you use both strands of rope for the nipping part of each Bowline, but you use just the one strand (working end) to go around your torso.  The strand that goes around your torso is the loop of the Bowline.

Thanks for that, knot4u,

I have mastered it now. So it looks like the Karash DL with the bowline(s) is the way to go. It's a lot more comfortable than a single torso loop -  even if you need to be careful of the positioning at the nether regions.  ;D