International Guild of Knot Tyers Forum

General => New Knot Investigations => Topic started by: X1 on July 11, 2013, 12:06:30 AM

Title: A simple TIB locked bowline
Post by: X1 on July 11, 2013, 12:06:30 AM
  A simple TIB / midline "locked" bowline. We can tie it very easily by the same "three bights" general method shown at (1)(2) or at (3).
1. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4354.msg27362#msg27362 (http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4354.msg27362#msg27362)
2. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4354.msg27784#msg27784 (http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4354.msg27784#msg27784)
3. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4354.msg27846#msg27846 (http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4354.msg27846#msg27846)
 
Title: Re: A simple TIB locked bowline
Post by: SS369 on July 11, 2013, 12:35:06 AM
Hi X1 and thanks for this tangle.

Tying it using some brand new BlueWater ProTac 10.5 mm I find that the tail migrates to an uncrossed position, ultimately positioned parallel to the standing part. At that point I can pull on return leg of the loop and get movement. The rope's composition is stiff as it is a abseiling rope and it seems to resist quite a number of knots from being tightened "super snug". ;-)).

SS
Title: Re: A simple TIB locked bowline
Post by: X1 on July 11, 2013, 03:11:27 AM
   Thanks SS369,
   So far, I have tied and tried this knot only on this thin 7 mm soft,"decorative", cheap cord, and I had loaded it only after I had already pre-tightened it a little bid - by pulling the tail so it meets the rim of the collar and the standing part at a right angle ( as shown in the picture ). I have seen that, when two adjacent ropes are squeezed upon each other while they meet at a right angle, they "bite" each other much deeper than when they meet at any other acute or obtuse angle. The "dents", the local deformations of the surfaces of the ropes around their contact area, work as "obstacles" that enhance the ordinary friction forces. So, when we want to block the slippage of the tail, we better make it follow a path inside the knot s nub where it meets the other segments at the right angle - the right angle ! 
   The tail of this TIB eyeknot remained at this favourite position even after a heavy, alternating loading by my own body weight, jumping up and down the eye for some time !  :)  I do not know what would had happened on a knot tied on a stiff rope like the one you have used - and if my weight was twice as heavy. and I was jumping twice as high !  :)  Could you, please, try it on the same rope, after some proper pre-tightening, so the tail and the standing part meet each other at a right angle, right from the beginning ?
   
Title: Re: A simple TIB locked bowline
Post by: kd8eeh on July 28, 2013, 05:27:03 AM
If you flip the loop end and the tails, this is the same knot as an angler's loop.  The same sort of inversion can be done with any TIB loop, but it makes the knots easier to describe.
Title: Re: A simple TIB locked bowline
Post by: X1 on July 28, 2013, 12:41:50 PM
If you flip the loop end and the tails, this is the same knot as an angler's loop. 
 
    I do not understand what you mean by this "flipping". Could you, please, explain it to me, or show a picture ?
   This knot is a slightly re-dressed variation of the Lehman s locked bowline. I had not paid any attention to this knot, so I had forgotten it... I met again this most simple TIB locked bowline a few weeks ago, when I was tying any possible knot that can be generated by the "three bights" tying method, in the manner of Span loop, described in (1)-(3) - although this particular one needs a little re-dressing after it is formed that way.
   Although the strands do not follow the optimum path we would have wished, its TIB nature makes us accept it with open arms - because we have such a small number of TIB AND PET eyeknots...

1. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4354.msg27362#msg27362 (http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4354.msg27362#msg27362)
2. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4354.msg27784#msg27784 (http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4354.msg27784#msg27784)
3. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4354.msg27824#msg27824 (http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4354.msg27824#msg27824)
4. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4354.msg27846#msg27846 (http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4354.msg27846#msg27846)
5. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4354.msg27856#msg27856 (http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4354.msg27856#msg27856)
Title: Re: A simple TIB locked bowline
Post by: Dan_Lehman on July 30, 2013, 07:16:53 PM
If you flip the loop end and the tails, this is the same knot as an angler's loop. 
 
    I do not understand what you mean by this "flipping".
Could you, please, explain it to me, or show a picture ?

He means that if you join the tail to the SPart
and then cut the eye (magically extending the
proper newly-cut end to become new Spart)
you will have *reversed* the approach to the
knot and have now the Perfection loop.
(Do this with the TIB overhand / fig.8 eyeknots
and you get ... the same things!    :D  )

Quote
The same sort of inversion can be done with any TIB loop

Hmmm, I don't see what TIB-ness has to do with it:
one might *see* "new" knots this way from whatever
nub --TIB or not-- one beholds.  --along with other
variations to the loading, beyond this sort of "flipping"!

But to your perhaps intended If Knot_K is TIB,
then so too is Flipped(Knot_K)
proposition, I can
only say that I don't *see* the truth (value) of this,
alas.  (But I believe it's true.)


--dl*
====
Title: Re: A simple TIB locked bowline
Post by: X1 on July 30, 2013, 08:28:25 PM
  I still do not see what does this has to do with anything !  :)
  If we have a TIB tangle, any TIB tangle ( that is, a knot topologically equivalent to the unknot, a concealed tangled straight line...), and we connect the two free ends, we get a tangled closed "loop", topologically equivalent to a ring. Now, if we cut this tangled closed loop anywhere ( i.e., cut a bight somewhere, so we get two new ends - any bight, anywhere in the tangle, not only the bight that happened to be the eye of the eye-knot ), and we hold those two new ends, so they do not get entangled within the remaining tangle of which they are now the new ends, this remaining tangle would be topologically equivalent to the unknot, of course...If we connect again those two new ends, we get a tangle again topologically equivalent to a ring, and if we cut again this tangled ring / closed loop, anywhere, we get again two new ends, and a tangled straight line between them, etc...Perhaps I am missing something obvious...but what I see seems also obvious !  :)  Cutting a topologically equivalent to a ring "closed" tangle, we get a topologically equivalent to a straight line "open" tangle - and if we connect the ends of this later, we get something as the former, etc.
Title: Re: A simple TIB locked bowline
Post by: kd8eeh on July 31, 2013, 05:25:08 AM
I don't see it as effecting the function of any knot.  Topology tells us both loops are tib, which can sometimes be a good way to develop "new" knots, however i mostly point out that this is the flipped version of an anglers loop as an easy way to describe the knot.  I discovered this knot some time ago by tracing another angler's loop and trying to untie it.  From how i tie it, there are many similar tib bowlines that can be made, several which i prefer to this one (formed by twisting the loop of the slipknot different amounts different directions and then passing it throught on either side).  It may be the same method X1 described, but i find it simpler to understand.

Also, can someone remind me what PET stands for?
Title: Re: A simple TIB locked bowline
Post by: X1 on July 31, 2013, 10:13:05 AM

 the flipped version of an anglers loop ... an easy way to describe the knot.
It is a way to "describe" it, indeed -  but not an "easy" one !  :)

there are many similar tib bowlines that can be made
All four of the crossing-knot based bowlines, shown in :
http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4354.0 (http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4354.0)
can be tied by the same, "three bights" method, which is the method Ashley ties the span loop. ( The pet loop can be considered as just an improvisation of the span loop. ) Start from two bights formed in the line, the one after the other, at some distance from each other, and make a third bight by the line that is in between them / connects them, the "bridge". Then, pass one bight half way through a second one, from the "front" or the "back" side, and then reeve the remaining third bight all the way through the eye of this half-passed second one, also from the "front" or the "back" side. Some combinations will produce stable bowlines, some will not, but that is the dumb but also quite general way one can generate many simple TIB bowlines. Try it ! ( Also, before you half-pass or reeve one bight through the other, you can twist it 180 degrees around itself, so the possible stable combinations become more..)
Regarding the PET = post-eye-tiable question, click the " Bowline Analysis" in:
http://www.paci.com.au/knots.php (http://www.paci.com.au/knots.php)
,download the paper, and do your homework !  :) :)
 
 
Title: Re: A simple TIB locked bowline
Post by: kd8eeh on August 01, 2013, 05:21:44 AM
I was thinking of some knots like this one, with the tail parallel to the standing part and both ends wrapped together in a single collar.  They are inevitably less secure, as the tail is not secured as well, but they can be loaded by the tail and still be a reasonable knot.  In both configurations it is easy to untie, and most of them are also PET both ways.
Title: Re: A simple TIB locked bowline
Post by: X1 on August 01, 2013, 06:23:46 AM
most of them are also PET both ways.
  However, they can not be stable enough when loaded both ways. Start from all the possible configurations, where the crossing knot is used as the nipping structure and the nipping turn as the ( crossed-bight ) collar, load them the other way, and see what happens :
http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3467 (http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3467)
Re-arrange the Standing end and the Tail in your knot, and get the TIB ABoK#1051 :
http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4428.msg28003#msg28003 (http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4428.msg28003#msg28003)
 
Title: How to tie the Lehman s locked bowline in the bight.
Post by: X1 on August 09, 2013, 12:54:20 PM
   Starting from a slipped overhand knot, and proceeding to the stage we have reeved the one bight through the other - so the first became the eye of the eye-knot, and the other the collar around the Standing end + Tail pair.
   
   ( I ask the Moderator to move this thread to a proper section. When I first published it, I have forgotten the Lehman s locked bowline. I simply tied all the possible PET eye-knots that can be tied with the 3-bights method, and this bowline was one of them, dressed not as a crossing knot-based eye-knot, but as an ordinary nipping turn-based bowline. It was only later, when I had the opportunity to re-view the "Analysis..." paper and saw the Lehman s locked bowline again, that I had made the obvious identification.)
Title: Re: How to tie the Lehman s locked bowline in the bight.
Post by: SS369 on August 09, 2013, 02:27:15 PM
   Snip: I ask the Moderator to move this thread to a proper section.

Where would you like it moved to?

SS
Title: Re: A simple TIB locked bowline
Post by: xarax on August 11, 2013, 02:04:27 PM
   I ask the Moderator to move this thread to a proper section.

Where would you like it moved to ?

   Hmmm, I really do not know !  :)
   The knot is a known simple locked bowline, so it is a practical knot, no question about that. However, the TIB tying method described, although simple, is much more complex than the knot itself ! I doubt that one would ever tie this knot this way, even if he has to tie a TIB bowline - he would probably chose something else.
   Personally, I would tie a pet loop, perhaps because I have been brain-washed by it some time now !  :) Other people may prefer to tie the very interesting, very secure two bight component TIB Reversed Jug sling bowline ( or "Coming and going" bowline )(1), by the method shown in (2). Notice that both those bowlines can be considered as PET eye-knots based on a crossing knot nipping structure, not a "proper" Common bowline nipping turn. However, I do not see any disadvantage in a stable, safe crossing knot-based bowline - on the contrary, I believe that their great inherent stability ( which alleviates a great portion of the burden of the bight component to keep the nipping component "closed", so it does not open up and degenerates into an open helix ), have not appreciated as much as they deserve by the knot tyers.
   So, we have a known practical knot, and a not-so-practical TIB method to tie it - and a thread that describes those two things...Where should we put it ?
 
1.  http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4336.msg29186#msg29186
2.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zqh3-uC94aA
Title: Re: A simple TIB locked bowline
Post by: SS369 on August 11, 2013, 02:39:44 PM
Quote
    So, we have a known practical knot, and a not-so-practical TIB method to tie it - and a thread that describes those two things...Where should we put it ?

Seems like an exploration to me.
Anybody concur?

SS
Title: Re: A simple TIB locked bowline
Post by: alpineer on August 11, 2013, 10:01:54 PM
Quote
    So, we have a known practical knot, and a not-so-practical TIB method to tie it - and a thread that describes those two things...Where should we put it ?

Seems like an exploration to me.
Anybody concur?

SS

I would concur.
Title: Re: A simple TIB locked bowline
Post by: Luca on August 11, 2013, 10:15:16 PM
Hi SS and xarax,

Quote
    So, we have a known practical knot, and a not-so-practical TIB method to tie it - and a thread that describes those two things...Where should we put it ?

Seems like an exploration to me.
Anybody concur?

SS

I do not agree! With the method below (if you have patience to decipher this diagram, and as always this kind of diagrams are not the best to illustrate the methods to tie the knots on the bight), with a bit of exercise, it is a matter of ten seconds and even less (with no hurry ):I guarantee!

                                                                                                         Bye!
P.S. SS,I thank you for the animation in the other thread( http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4517.msg28989#msg28989 )
       xarax,my conscience is converted with regard of how the bowline should be represented, but my brain is still  victim of the
       atavistic conditioning ,so my images still show the traditional view(for now..)

     

 (http://)   

 

 (http://)
Title: Re: A simple TIB locked bowline
Post by: Luca on August 11, 2013, 10:16:16 PM
Done!

(http://)

Title: Re: A simple TIB locked bowline
Post by: xarax on August 11, 2013, 10:51:07 PM
With the method below (if you have patience to decipher this diagram, and. as always. this kind of diagrams are not the best [means] to illustrate the methods to tie the knots on the bight), with a bit of exercise, it is a matter of ten seconds and even less (with no hurry ):I guarantee!

   True. It is just four simple steps, 1, 2, 3, 4 - and I can say that the last one, which may seem the most complex, is the easiest ( reeve the one bight through the other, and pull it towards the Standing end ).
   However, simplicity is not related to the time required to perform a sequence of tying steps. Even if this time is not depending on the dexterity of the knot tyer, its experience on the particular knot or on knots tiable with similar methods, or on the stiffness of the material itself, it is TIME nevertheless, a very complex thing we can not correlate to SHAPE. We are trying to base the notion of simplicity on many things (1), but if we add on top of those things the parameter of tying time, we will be lost !  :)
   Now, the successive shapes one has to form to tie the knot in the bight might not seem or be very complex, that is true - but they are more complex than the knot itself !  :)  We would hope that such a very simple locked bowline would be tiable by a very simple tying method, and I can not say that this method is as simple as I had expected/hoped it to be...To my brain-washed mind, the original 3-bights method by which one can tie the pet loop is much easier, although the pet loop itself is more complex than the Lehman s locked bowline.
   That is why I claim it is not so-practical : it in not because it is not easy and quick, but because the knot itself is very simple, and can be tied at the end more easily and more quickly than in the bight. So, I do not thing that it will be tied as a TIB eye-knot very often - people who will need a TIB safe bowline will probably prefer another knot, IMHO. 

1. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3740
Title: Re: A simple TIB locked bowline
Post by: SS369 on August 12, 2013, 12:08:40 AM
Hi SS and xarax,

Quote
    So, we have a known practical knot, and a not-so-practical TIB method to tie it - and a thread that describes those two things...Where should we put it ?

Seems like an exploration to me.
Anybody concur?

SS

I do not agree! With the method below (if you have patience to decipher this diagram, and as always this kind of diagrams are not the best to illustrate the methods to tie the knots on the bight), with a bit of exercise, it is a matter of ten seconds and even less (with no hurry ):I guarantee!

                                                                                                         Bye!
P.S. SS,I thank you for the animation in the other thread( http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4517.msg28989#msg28989 )
       xarax,my conscience is converted with regard of how the bowline should be represented, but my brain is still  victim of the
       atavistic conditioning ,so my images still show the traditional view(for now..)

     

     

 

 (http://)

Hi Luca.

You are welcome for the bit of animation, anytime just ask.

As far as not agreeing with me, good, that is why I asked. It would be better if there was a consensus here since it was asked for.  I am taking it that your input indicates you would rather it stay where it is?

SS
Title: Re: A simple TIB locked bowline
Post by: Luca on August 12, 2013, 01:12:49 AM
the method I have outlined above led me to believe that it was easy enough to get me to do the part of the bully and  be enough facetious that I implicitly propose to move this thread in the pratical knots board: for now I continue to believe that the method I have proposed is easy and fast ;D ::), but in reality I have no serious objection to move this thread in the knotting concepts and explorations board!

                                                                                                       Bye!
Title: Re: A simple TIB locked bowline
Post by: Dan_Lehman on August 13, 2013, 04:10:17 AM
To the question of moving this thread,
IMO this is not so much an exploration as is wanted
by that title as an attempt to make a practical knot
all the more so by finding a good tying method.
(An example of knotting explorations would be the
exploring of various ways in which the bowline's
central nipping loop and working with bights tucked
through each other can produce a lode of handy
(and *new*) knots.)

Further to this (sub-)forum, I think that those
simple queries that come in should remain here as
evidence of work done, even though the quickly
given response might be "it is known ..."; there's
no gain by moving the thread to Practical Knots
only to sit there doing zilch --leave it here as evidence
of questions answered.

 - - - - - -

Now, to Luca's nifty tying method I must object that
it should begin with step-3's placement of the nipping
loop --and consequent sizing of material to form the
eye-- and continue from there with the forming of
a like loop that will be tucked through the first and
then "backflipped" (my term) around everything
to become the collar.  When I tie this knot, I think
of forming a clove hitch but the spacing out the
"cross span" part --which is to become the eye--,
before tucking one loop through the other and so
one, as Luca shows.  (I liken this loop-through-loop
maneuver to putting a coin into a slot.)

Note that this knot is one of four related versions.
If one begins with the line formed into the nipping
loop, vertically oriented --eye downward--, and the
crossing point of the loop at the 9:00 (West) point,
insert a bight in the tail up through the loop with
(a) tail on the right, (b) tail on the left),
(c) as for "a" and then twist this bight on the
vertical axis,
(d) as for "b" and then twist this bight ... .
(If you twist "a" one way it will become "b",
so go the opposite way, and similarly for "b"'s twist.)
I think that this discussed version looks best.


--dl*
====
Title: Re: A simple TIB locked bowline
Post by: James Petersen on August 14, 2013, 07:38:25 PM
I tried my hand at some pics and a video of this knot. The video is at: http://archive.org/details/LLockInBight (http://archive.org/details/LLockInBight)

-- J:P
Title: Re: A simple TIB locked bowline
Post by: James Petersen on August 14, 2013, 07:39:39 PM
4 more.
Title: Re: A simple TIB locked bowline
Post by: James Petersen on August 14, 2013, 07:40:29 PM
Closeups of the finished knot.

edit:

I (very clumsily) edited the photos to make it clear which is the tail (the orange rope) and which is the standing end (the white rope).
Title: Re: A simple TIB locked bowline
Post by: xarax on August 14, 2013, 08:14:19 PM
   Hi JP,

   This is exactly the 3-bights method I was talking about at the first post, and at one following post.

Start from two bights formed in the line, the one after the other, at some distance from each other, and make a third bight by the line that is in between them / connects them, the "bridge". Then, pass one bight half way through a second one, from the "front" or the "back" side, and then reeve the remaining third bight all the way through the eye of this half-passed second one, also from the "front" or the "back" side. Some combinations will produce stable bowlines, some will not, but that is the dumb but also quite general way one can generate many simple TIB bowlines. Try it ! ( Also, before you half-pass or reeve one bight through the other, you can twist it 180 degrees around itself, so the possible stable combinations become more..)

  You see that, in this knot, you have to twist the one bight 90 degrees, indeed, before you half-pass it through the other. Also, you should pull the reeved bight towards the Standing end ( at the last stage of the dressing ), as said in :

reeve the one bight through the other, and pull it towards the Standing end

   The only thing you do differently is that you form the second bight around the neck of the first - in the 3-bights method, also followed in the Span loop, the two bights are first formed at a distance the one from the other, and at a next step the one is half-reeve through the other.
   I believe that the generality and the simplicity of this method have not been appreciated, because people wish to tie only this particular knot  - on the contrary,  I shad tarted with the intention to tie / explore all the different knots this method could generate, so I had not been forced to do reverse engineering !  :)
 
   Try all the different combinations, as suggested, and see how many stable crossing knot-based bowlines, or "Common", single nipping turn-based bowlines you can tie - it has fun !  :)
Title: Re: A simple TIB locked bowline
Post by: Luca on August 14, 2013, 09:18:55 PM
And for me nothing? :o :'( ;D( (James, Thank you very much for the pics and the video! :D)

                                                                                                               Bye!
Title: Re: A simple TIB locked bowline
Post by: xarax on August 14, 2013, 09:34:30 PM
And for me nothing? :o :'

   I believe you should excuse me, because I have been so brain-washed by the 3-bights method, that any evaluation by me of your method would run the danger to be biased, and not as fair as it should be - so I decided I should avoid it. I tie all the 4 pet eye-knots, the Lehman s bowline and the Span loop by the same method for some time now, so I can not learn your new trick !  :)
Title: Re: A simple TIB locked bowline
Post by: Luca on August 14, 2013, 09:38:08 PM
My new trick is identical to that of James!
Title: Re: A simple TIB locked bowline
Post by: X1 on August 14, 2013, 10:56:45 PM
My new trick is identical to that of James!
   I can see that James trick is identical to mine s with the 3-bights ( and, perhaps, similar to Ashley s #1037...), but I can not see that your trick is identical to James !  :)  And no one of them is identical to the trick presented at Reply#13 :
http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4476.msg29203#msg29203 (http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4476.msg29203#msg29203)
 
   I believe that the way everybody sees a knot is different, so the way one ties a knot does not have any relation whatsoever with anybody else s way !   :) I have seen thousands of fishermen and sailors tying bowlines, and I do not remember one instance I had the impression that any one of them did exactly the same thing I use to do...Perhaps I myself "see" what I do very differently than one who sees me...because the haptic perception one has for a small object he holds by his fingers is interwoven, in his mind, with the optical perception of it, in one jammed whole !
   Also, there are minor, perhaps, details in a shape that can attract one s eye and help one s brain memorize the general picture, but will not make any impression whatsoever to anybody else. The two lines that meet each other at a right angle, right at the centre of the perimeter of the nipping turn, at the third picture of Reply#13, were not placed in this position by chance... :)  but t can not estimate the mnemonic value, if any, of this detail for other people. Now that I have decided to see and show the two legs of the two bights that way, a tying sequence which follows exactly the same steps, but does not involve this particular detail, would seem very different to me !
   Knots, as shapes, may be less simple than we imagine, but tying those knots is always a much more complex procedure, involving many more parts of our brain, than we can realize ! The coordinated motion of parts of our body that sets in motion parts of other objects, and re-arranges them in space according to a stored mental image, is an extremely complex thing. It is planned and controlled by obscure regions hidden deep inside our brains, from an epoch even before we developed our eyes to become able to see the light of a day, and the "view" of a knot !  :) 
 
Title: Re: A simple TIB locked bowline
Post by: Luca on August 14, 2013, 11:30:54 PM
If I had the chance to make a video of how to run this knot, instead of using KnotMaker, I can assure you it would be different from that by James, but this is only a matter of gestures and angles, because in the essence of the operation, I guarantee you that it is absolutely the same thing:for example,the method proposed by Dan Lehman may very well be a different alternative in that there is an exchange for the component to start the knot (I tried, but I do not feel very well (but these things are, such maybe also you hint, too, very individual and dictated by habit)). 

                                                                                                  Bye!
Title: Re: A simple TIB locked bowline
Post by: James Petersen on August 15, 2013, 04:18:27 AM
I was not trying to tie a new method. I was simply working from Luca's diagrams. Sorry, Xarax, but I didn't particularly like making a slipped overhand and then pulling the loop back part way. For my large hands it was a bit too fiddly. I find that I can tie Luca's method in hand and fairly quickly. I simply wanted the video to show this method in a way that was easier for me than the diagrams.

-- J:P
Title: Re: A simple TIB locked bowline
Post by: alanleeknots on August 15, 2013, 07:12:06 AM
Hi All,
        I have a few variation of this TIB locked bowlines here, hope you like it.
       Thanks    alan lee.
Title: Re: A simple TIB locked bowline
Post by: xarax on August 15, 2013, 07:56:19 AM
I didn't particularly like making a slipped overhand and then pulling the loop back part way.

This stage was meant to be an easy memorisable, not easy tied. Everybody knows and can remember how to tie a slipped overhand knot.
Do not forget that I work with climbing 10mm+ ropes, not with smaller material, where to pinch a bight of the overhand and pull it away would require some dexterity, indeed.

   I believe that you and Luca still have not realized what you really do, because you do it by tyng the same things, with a different order...You make a first bight, right ? This is the first bight of the 3-bights method. See your fourth picture. There you have two bights, the one half-reeved through the other - and both of them been twisted 180 degrees around their axis. So, this is the first and the second bight of the 3-bights method, only that I form the bights separately, in different parts of the line, and only then I "wear" the one through the other half way - you make the same thing, but you form the second bight around the neck of the first in its final place, you do not form them at different places of the line, and then wear the first through the second. I believe that "my" method, which is Ashley s method, of course, is simpler conceptually, easier to memorize, and more general, since with the same METHOD. just by altering details, you can tie many knots ! At the final step, Ashley s method and your method are identical, because you reave the third bight through the opening of the half-reeved one( fifth picture ). You may not see your third bight, but its material is there, where it has been from the star : in between the first and the second bight. It is the "bridge" between the first and the second bight.
   If you do the same thing, but, for the third bight you use material of the line beyond the first two, you can tie mid-line eye-knots suitable for directional pull, like what we need in Trucker s hitch. See :
 http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1870.msg21210#msg21210
 http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1870.msg21216#msg21216

 I do not have a good memory, and I hate to be forced to memorize things that are not connected to each other with some logically coherent order. So, I prefer methods that are quite general, and where I can see some inner logic, some rationale. That is why I prefer the 3-bights method, in its "pure" form I described at the thread about the pet loops. The second, more special method I describe here, at Reply#11, was just an attempt to find something quicker, that would be as "simple" as the particular very simple knot itself.

   JP, please, do what I had suggested to kd8eech :Tie all the knots the 3-bight method can generate, first with the bights as they are, without been twisted 180 degrees around their necks, and then by twisted bights, in every combination : one of them twisted clock-wise or counter-clockwise, two of them, both twisted at every possible combination of clock-wise and counter-clockwise turns, and, finally three of them, also twisted in every possible of the two twists each. If you tie all those eye-knots that you can tie this way, you will appreciate the 3-bights method, in particular, and a METHOD, that is, a general scheme of things, in general.
Title: Re: A simple TIB locked bowline
Post by: Dan_Lehman on August 15, 2013, 06:47:26 PM
Hmmm, after JP's further presentation of Luca's tying method,
  [Sometimes it takes more than one whack to the noggin
   to get it working.]
I'm inclined to reverse my "objection" above, as I now see that
in fact the eye-sizing comes quite conveniently, and one can
see the starting with the tail's loop as a means to ensuring
some material efficiency --i.e., no more than necessary--
in forming that.  After the central nipping loop is formed,
and maybe after the tuck out of the eye bight is made,
it should be convenient to adjust it for the desired size.

Good show!  (as those funny Brits like to say)   ;)


--dl*
====
Title: Re: A simple TIB locked bowline
Post by: alanleeknots on August 20, 2013, 12:46:36 AM
 :) :) :)

Thanks   alan lee
Title: Re: A simple TIB locked bowline
Post by: xarax on August 20, 2013, 06:51:03 AM
   Alan, I believe you already submitted this at Reply#32 ( first picture ). Also, it would be easier to the viewer if you show the tying procedure in more steps ( without this red or yellow thin line !  :) ).
Title: Re: A simple TIB locked bowline
Post by: alanleeknots on August 24, 2013, 03:27:20 AM
Hi All,   
        Thanks for the reply X1, I  am planning to make some videos how to tie the loops that I have presented here.
        Can anyone tell me what is Lehman s locked bowline,  with so little spare time that I have, it hurt my brain so
        much try to read and find the picture of Lehman s locked bowline.

       Thanks    alan lee :) :) :)
Title: Re: A simple TIB locked bowline
Post by: Ruby on August 24, 2013, 04:18:30 AM
maybe these?:

Locktight-Loop-I
(http://www.knotveryinteresting.co.uk/posts/Locktight-Loop-I.jpg)


Locktight-Loop-II
(http://www.knotveryinteresting.co.uk/posts/Locktight-Loop-II.jpg)

and more:

(http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3888.0;attach=7199;image)
Title: Re: A simple TIB locked bowline
Post by: xarax on August 24, 2013, 06:34:46 AM
what is the Lehman s locked bowline

The same knot with the one shown in the first post of this thread.
Title: Re: A simple TIB locked bowline
Post by: alanleeknots on August 24, 2013, 07:41:04 AM
Hi All,
        Thanks for the info X1 and Ruby, I will get my video done the next few day.
     
         Thanks (感謝)   alan lee. :) :) :)
Title: Re: A simple TIB locked bowline
Post by: Luca on August 25, 2013, 12:16:38 AM
Single Bowline on the Bight!(aka Dan Lehman's Locked Bowline with the original method and sketch!)

Almost at the bottom of this document:  http://www.pssurvival.com/ps/knots/knot_knowledge_photo_illustrations_2004.pdf

                                                                                                         Bye!

P.S.Alan,thank you,I wait for your video,but without hurry, when you have time!

(http://)

Title: Re: A simple TIB locked bowline
Post by: Ruby on August 25, 2013, 07:47:29 AM
tying a knot in bight is always interesting ... :D

such as jug sling, shakehands loop ...
to tie these knots, just use left hand to grasp the two end, and only use right hand to tie, by using all fingers and  twisting wrist ...  smoothly tying is interesting
Title: Re: A simple TIB locked bowline
Post by: xarax on August 25, 2013, 08:29:27 AM
tying a knot in bight is always interesting ... :D   

   To me. it is always fascinating ! To be able to transform a straight flexible 1D line into a round rigid 3D object, and vice versa, has something magical in it, that I never lose the opportunity to enjoy.
   The method shown by Dan Lehman ( but kept secret from the audience of this Forum, probably because the author cares more about the knotting archaeologists of the future, I guess ), is exactly the 3-bights method me too has used in tying it, as well as all the other crossing  knot based and single nipping turn based bowlines presented in (1) and (2). When the collar is kept in its initial "low" position and it is encircling the eye leg pair of lines, we get the crossing knot based siblings. When it is pushed "back", and settles in the "high" position, as a proper bowline collar, and it is  encircling the Standing end and the Tail pair of lines, we get the single nipping turn based bowlines. It is a nice example of "bi-stable" knots (3),(4), where one can see that topology does not determine geometry uniquely. But we have talked about it, have nt we ? (5)

1.   http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4354.0 (http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4354.0)
2.   http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4603.0 (http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4603.0)
3.   http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4201.0 (http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4201.0)
4.   http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4603.msg29719#msg29719 (http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4603.msg29719#msg29719)
5.   http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3989.msg29176#msg29176 (http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3989.msg29176#msg29176)
 
Title: Re: A simple TIB locked bowline
Post by: alanleeknots on August 25, 2013, 12:31:40 PM
Hi All,
       Thanks very much for the help, X1, Luca and Ruby. you guys have a great day.

       I just finished upload 5 videos, hope you like it.

       謝謝   alan   lee.
 
       alanleeknots   at youtube
Title: Re: A simple TIB locked bowline
Post by: xarax on August 25, 2013, 02:11:35 PM
   Congratulations, Alan Lee. Chapeau.
   That is a one hand - no fingers quick tying method of the overhand and the fig.8 knot !  :)
Title: Re: A simple TIB locked bowline
Post by: Luca on September 01, 2013, 07:31:44 PM
Hi Alan,

Thank you for the new videos! They are the proof that the various Bowlines can be achieved easily and quickly (and with a lot of style in your case!) even taking as the point of view the one that the majority of knot tyers consider as the rear view.
The only problem I point to you, is that,in the title of the penultimate video,you mistook the term "Eskimo", instead of the terms "Lefthanded" or "Cowboy" double Bowline.Also,next to the word "TIB"(which I would keep, so that it contributes to that the use of this acronym will spread), I would put the definition in full (tiable in the bight), because I think that unfortunately "TIB"have a meaning especially among users of this forum,and a few others,but if someone else is watching your videos, he will ask what it wants to mean(and I also wonder what is the meaning of "MVI Bowline"?).
These days I noticed that your admirable Kung Fu method for the common Bowline is good and fast even for the Dan Lehman's locked;the only two differences are that:1) one must start with a loop in the right hand, instead of the bight that you form in your video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pP83M-o9Ag0 (EDIT: I noticed that the second method for the Double Bowline  shown in this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-G82RL_O_8g  is exactly the same method, and is shown more clearly: the only difference is the "doubling" of the simple turn that will form the nipping turn) ,and 2) at the time to bring the bights one inside the other to exchange their positions,it must exclude the tail from being involved in this operation ,as instead is the case during the formation with this method of the common Bowline. As I'm sure I explained myself badly, then I attach some diagrams to show the two differences (at the risk of further worsen the situation!).
As always,I admire your imagination with regard knots and methods for their execution, and your style as performer.

                                                                                             Bye!







(http://)


Title: Re: A simple TIB locked bowline
Post by: alanleeknots on September 03, 2013, 12:29:58 AM

Hi All, 

Thanks you very much  for the comment Xarax and Luca.

Luca, the title of the video (TIB locked double & eskimo bowline)what I mean the first loop is TIB locked double bowline,the second loop is TIB locked eskimo bowline.

May be I should rename it as   (TIB locked Lefthanded double bowline and TIB locked eskimo bowline). and also explain what is meaning of the word TIB in the description.

MVI is the typ of video fomat of my camera, just forget to erase it .

Please let me know if it is wrong again.
謝謝   alan lee
Title: Re: A simple TIB locked bowline
Post by: Luca on September 03, 2013, 02:40:42 AM
Hi Alan,

Yes, in fact only now I notice that the second loop in your video,even if the knot's nub (on which I was too focused)is like that of a locked Double Bowline,the standing part is actually exchanged,and must say that this actually changes everything: this loop is no longer a Locked Bowline, but in this way it becomes a loop with a nipping structure similar to the crossing knot as well as in the Eskimo Bowline:I apologize to you for not having noticed before.
However, although under this aspect similar to the Eskimo, I personally would tend to consider this loop as another knot,maybe more similar to as if it were a variant of ABoK #1051( http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4476.msg28997#msg28997 ),rather than a locked variant of the Eskimo.

MVI is the typ of video fomat of my camera, just forget to erase it .

Who knows what I had imagined! ::) :D
 
                                                                                                        Thank you,bye!




Title: Re: A simple TIB locked bowline
Post by: Dan_Lehman on September 03, 2013, 05:26:08 AM
Hi Alan,

Thank you for the new videos! They are the proof that the various Bowlines can be achieved easily and quickly (and with a lot of style in your case!) even taking as the point of view the one that the majority of knot tyers consider as the rear view.
The only problem I point to you, is that,in the title of the penultimate video,you mistook the term "Eskimo", instead of the terms "Lefthanded" or "Cowboy" double Bowline.Also,next to the word "TIB"(which I would keep, so that it contributes to that the use of this acronym will spread), I would put the definition in full (tiable in the bight), because I think that unfortunately "TIB"have a meaning especially among users of this forum,and a few others,but if someone else is watching your videos, he will ask what it wants to mean(and I also wonder what is the meaning of "MVI Bowline"?).
These days I noticed that your admirable Kung Fu method for the common Bowline is good and fast even for the Dan Lehman's locked;the only two differences are that:
...
 As I'm sure I explained myself badly, then I attach some diagrams to show the two differences (at the risk of further worsen the situation!).

And indeed you did --further worsen the situation,
alas : the nipping loop is wrong-sided, at the very
least, and your diagrams lead to a noose!  --got
the over/under of the crossing point reversed.
(Is nOnElse looking at these?!)


--dl*
====
Title: Re: A simple TIB locked bowline
Post by: alanleeknots on September 03, 2013, 07:15:52 AM
     
           Hi Dan and All,
   
           I am not quiet follow what you said, I have Luca's diagram and Xarax's picture at reply#11 here, they are the same loop,         
          謝謝   alan lee
                               
Title: Re: A simple TIB locked bowline
Post by: SS369 on September 03, 2013, 01:58:58 PM

(Is nOnElse looking at these?!)


--dl*
====

Yes indeed, som0ne(s) else is looking at these and even tying them.
Taking Luca's drawing and performing the tie as shown the knot can take a few different dressings, including a noose, but I have arrived at a fixed loop with other manipulations. As with other TIB loops (other knots as well), careful execution is required.

SS
Title: Re: A simple TIB locked bowline
Post by: Luca on September 03, 2013, 03:11:39 PM
Hi Dan,

Maybe my diagrams above are more incomprehensible than I thought, but I can assure that they are correct;I do not know if my use of the arrows can lead to some mistake, but to me seem that at,least roughly,are correct even the arrows.
Please,take a look at this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-G82RL_O_8g  ,which,starting from 0:26,shows a simple variation of the original method,in order to obtain a Double Bowline,and everything should be clearer: applying instead the two changes mentioned above,you get something very similar to the illustration of ABoK # 1037 of which xarax wrote in one of the previous posts,but with SPart/tail inverted and without the twist of the upper loop.
Doing a"knothematical"calculus,#1037 - 1(twist) = #1036, and if one backflip the upper(but no twisted,to obtain #1036) loop in the illustration of  #1037, obtains the identical shape of the knot's nub of the Single Bowline on the Bight.

                                                                                                                      Bye!

(http://)
Title: Re: A simple TIB locked bowline
Post by: Dan_Lehman on September 04, 2013, 04:57:57 AM

(Is nOnElse looking at these?!)


--dl*
====

Yes indeed, som0ne(s) else is looking at these and even tying them.
Oh, then I was safer from shame were this not so!
   :-[      ::)


Quote
Taking Luca's drawing and performing the tie as shown the knot can take a few different dressings, including a noose, but I have arrived at a fixed loop with other manipulations. As with other TIB loops (other knots as well), careful execution is required.
&
Quote
Maybe my diagrams above are more incomprehensible than I thought, but I can assure that they are correct;I do not know if my use of the arrows can lead to some mistake, but to me seem that at,least roughly,are correct even the arrows.
Well, in my defence, I'll say that there is at
least the seed of error in the arrow that
directs one to draw the lower bight through
the upper one, upwards --for that undoes
the turNip and leads to a noose.

What is wanted is simply making the full,
as I like to call it, "backflip" with the upper
bight around not only the lower bight (which
constitutes the eye) but everything, then
settling qua collar.  Given others' incredulity
at my own, I re-tried and immediately saw
that, yes, the first bight-tucking was coming
on the side of the turNip to be "bowline"
and not "anti-bowline", and ... I got it.
But I do believe that an obvious following
of that upwards-directing arrow ought to
lead one astray (absent verbal guidance
about preserving the turNip and the full
passage of the "back flip") --you all are wrong
for getting it right!  ;D

NOW, one way to discover *new knots* is
to make mistakes tying known ones :
 so, seeing my assertion that the turNip
should have a reversed crossing point
--which in my cursory consideration seemed
   to give a decent start, preserving it upon the
   raising of the lower bight--,
I tried this, and got something that struggles
to keep the turNip from *helixing* into
straightness, but which can then take on
a collar around the SPart to stabilize it.
(X.'s "proper collar", so to speak).  It looks
workable, sufficient (among the gazillions
of eye knots we have available).

.:.  moral : Shoot first, and make discoveries later.


--dl*
====
Title: Re: A simple TIB locked bowline
Post by: Luca on September 20, 2013, 12:50:50 AM
Hi,

Here is a diagram (it's really ugly!) of a variation of the DL locked Bowline;is very similar to some locked bowlines shown in this post http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4517.msg29909#msg29909 and in the following,but the final passes of the working end,personally in this case lead me to post it in this thread rather than in the thread of the Scott's locked Bowline.Adds something?
                         
                                                                                                     Bye!
(http://)
Title: Re: A simple TIB locked bowline
Post by: alanleeknots on October 14, 2013, 10:40:36 PM
Hi All, 
   
       This trip I have to work few more weeks longer then usual, another two more week then I can go hame and make the video. sorry for waiting.
       
      謝謝   alan lee

    --- Sorry I reply in wrong topic, should be( Figure out an easy TIB tying method for Scott s locked TIB )---

Title: Re: A simple TIB locked bowline
Post by: alanleeknots on January 15, 2017, 03:23:34 AM
Hi All,
         This topic  discuss about A simple TIB locked bowline, many of our members included me have show some of thier way to tie few of the TIB  bowline , after all the exchange, I believe all of us improve our skill to tie knots.
         These days I tie a lots knots using hand wrapping method, a lots of time this hand wrapping method can turn into one continuous motion to tie the knot, I have a few photos here, all these TIB loops can be tie in one continuous motion.
          謝謝   alan lee