International Guild of Knot Tyers Forum

General => Chit Chat => Topic started by: Luca on June 30, 2013, 12:30:22 AM

Title: An exploding hitch
Post by: Luca on June 30, 2013, 12:30:22 AM
OK, trying to fiddle with some kind of back-handed hitch, instead I found  in my hands this exploding hitch: to be set up properly it needs some pull here and there among the standing part and the tail (so one have to be careful which leg of the slip must be pulled ..), but in the end seems to be quite stable and unjamming(tested in an almost serious way with a rope  about 9 mm around a handle of round section about 4cm in diameter). Please have comprehension of my withdrawal symptoms from "presentation of knots" ,and have mercy and patience for my impossibility to post photos, as someone occasionally likes  point out ..

                                                                                                           Thanks and bye!

(http://)

Title: Re: An exploding hitch
Post by: Luca on June 30, 2013, 02:22:55 AM
The diagram is correct with regard to the pattern:a defect of this knot is, that if no well set and tightened, pulling through the standing part, the standing part tends to widen the loop that it  that passes through , but if you then pull the leg of the final slip adjacent  to this loop, then it should not move that much by pulling on the standing part(in each case,as all the exploding hitches on the model of the Highwayman's hitch,is not a knot to which to entrust the safety of a something critical!).

                                                                                                            Thank you,and bye!
Title: Re: An exploding hitch
Post by: Ruby on June 30, 2013, 05:56:37 AM
test
Title: Re: An exploding hitch
Post by: Dan_Lehman on June 30, 2013, 06:27:18 AM
test

Passed !

 :)
Title: Re: An exploding hitch
Post by: X1 on June 30, 2013, 11:06:22 AM
   I do not understand why one has to tie this knot in the first place ! Look at this ! The standing end is going to ignite the "exploding" segment before the pull of the trigger ! 
 
Title: Re: An exploding hitch
Post by: Dan_Lehman on June 30, 2013, 04:42:54 PM
   I do not understand why one has to tie this knot in the first place !
...
The standing end is going to ignite the "exploding" segment before the pull of the trigger !

???
The knot is stable until released, unlike the popularized
highwayman's hitch --noting that there is that issue
of when the nip is sufficient upon the slip-tuck/toggle
(one might prefer to locate the nipping opposite the
load point for quicker/surer tension reaching this point;
alternatively, there are ways to toggle the ultimate
slip-tuck to prevent the drawing out of its legs).

When to use this?
If one were single-handedly (i.e., sans ground crew)
lowering some several items to the ground,
the line  could be freed from the object and
returned upwards for continued lowering
(w/o say having to pull through an entire
length-of-lowering part of line that slipped
a hitch that wasn't a "slip-free" hitch).
(An alternative method could use a stout line
for the lowering, load bearing, and a thin line
to a toggle for release.)


--dl*
====
Title: Re: An exploding hitch
Post by: Luca on June 30, 2013, 05:13:13 PM
Hi X1,and thank you!

The fact is that, during one of my "excursions outside zone" with my friends,over there, near Tucson, I was riding an appaloosa,who had a temper a little restless: a horse accustomed to pull here and there, always agitated, even when it was left tied to a pole: so it happened that, after tying the horse,diligently following the instructions that my grandfather  was giving while he taught me the job when I was at a young age ( http://daveroot.atspace.cc/knots/Knots_Hitches.htm#HighwaymansHitch ), when I and my friends came out of the bank, the others already rode away in the wind, while I instead I took a bullet in the bottom,and I was captured by the sheriff: this was a little mishap, but it did not last very long ( http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4418.msg27862#msg27862 ).When I came back from my friends, then I tried this other knot ( http://daveroot.atspace.cc/knots/Knots_Hitches.htm#TumbleHitch ): it looked great, but the fact is that, as I finished setting it and tighten it properly, my friends already came out of the bank, and they would not give me my share, because they said that I had not participated. Then I tried this: http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1962.msg13687#msg13687 a knot better than that of my grandfather, but, for some reason, when I tried it, surfaced up memories of when the sheriff captured me. Then I tried the knot that I show above: before doing the robbery,I runned a waggoner's hitch with double pulley using this knot as the first hitch, and after I tied the end of the rope to the saddle of my horse,and  I did pull up to risk for it being come a heart attack:It is true, it may seem that the trigger shots, but in reality actually holds(the flaw lies in the fact that you have to also pull from the tail a bit as if it were a binding knot, but once the standing part is well wrapped the knot does not move anymore (but with regard to any critical situations:this is only an exploding a hitch! WARNING!Do not use this knot in situations where you feel that something vital is at stake for you!)) .

                                                                                                        Bye!
Title: Re: An exploding hitch
Post by: roo on June 30, 2013, 05:49:12 PM
.When I came back from my friends, then I tried this other knot ( http://daveroot.atspace.cc/knots/Knots_Hitches.htm#TumbleHitch ):
That link gets the Tumble Hitch wrong.

Here's the real Tumble Hitch:
http://notableknotindex.webs.com/tumblehitch.html
Title: Re: An exploding hitch
Post by: X1 on June 30, 2013, 09:59:31 PM
   The knot is stable until released
  The knot can become stable only as a veeery loose hitch, or as a hitch tied around a pole of a veeery small diameter !  In those cases, the "deflexion point" of the Standing Part would not be close enough to the surface of the pole, to allow it to pull the first leg of the slipped tail out of its lock. The looser the hitch, or the smaller the diameter of the pole, the more stable the knot would become.
   There is nothing wrong with the "lock" itself : it is the same old two opposing bights arrangement, a most efficient locking mechanism - used in the TackleClamp hitches, presented at (1)(2), or in the Hugo bend, presented at (3), for example. The problem lies in the ability of even a veery light load, coming from the Standing end, to pull the tail bight out of this lock. Of course, if the two legs of this bight are sufficiently long, the hitch would remain wrapped around the pole, even if ( in fact, just because...) it will now become a veeery loose hitch ! I would nt leave my horse alone, with such a loosened hitch, because this locking mechanism depends upon the two opposed bights remaining tensioned at all times - so, when the first round turn will become loose, the second round turn would also loosen, and the locking power of the two opposing bights would diminish. Also, on a veery loose hitch, and if the rope is not stif enough, the "under" bight can be pulled and pass underneath the "over" one, carrying the whole tail bight along with it.
   Now, this will happen in the case of an appaloosa horse, with a restless temper. I am sure that the knot will remain "stable", with a less strong horse - a seahorse, for example ?  :)

1.  http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4035.msg24106#msg24106 (http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4035.msg24106#msg24106)
2.  http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4035.msg24724#msg24724 (http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4035.msg24724#msg24724)
3.  http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4090.msg24518#msg24518 (http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4090.msg24518#msg24518)
Title: Re: An exploding hitch
Post by: roo on June 30, 2013, 10:43:29 PM
Here's the real Tumble Hitch:
http://notableknotindex.webs.com/tumblehitch.html
Hey Luca, I just realized that what you have in your first post is the Tumble Hitch, but shown from the reverse side.

Title: Re: An exploding hitch
Post by: X1 on June 30, 2013, 11:21:05 PM
   If we do not need to tie an exploding "snug", tight hitch, and we would be satisfied even with a loosened hitch, we can use one of the many possible slipped "loose" hitches / nooses. Some of them, the most convenient and easy to tie and to untie, can be released under tension, in one stage, without leaving any knot still tied on the Standing Part. See two examples, at the attached pictures.
Title: Re: An exploding hitch
Post by: Luca on July 01, 2013, 12:47:14 AM
Hi roo,

Here's the real Tumble Hitch:
http://notableknotindex.webs.com/tumblehitch.html
Hey Luca, I just realized that what you have in your first post is the Tumble Hitch, but shown from the reverse side.

You are very right...at least now I understand how really works this hitch.Thank you!(and I apologize with Dan Lehman and all the readers for the "false alarm"!)

                                                                                                                   Bye!





                                                                                                                 

Title: Re: An exploding hitch
Post by: Ruby on July 01, 2013, 01:34:10 AM
Here's the real Tumble Hitch:
http://notableknotindex.webs.com/tumblehitch.html
Hey Luca, I just realized that what you have in your first post is the Tumble Hitch, but shown from the reverse side.

Interesting

Seems the backside of the mirrored tumble hitch
Title: Re: An exploding hitch
Post by: Luca on July 01, 2013, 03:54:53 AM
Hi X1,


As you noted, these hitches on the model of "Highwayman's",have limits with regard to their reliability. OK, this is true, but then what is it that makes this type knots so fascinating? For me, it is not only the fact that they explode without leaving a trace of them around the handle, but it is also the fact that they can be tied in any case in the bight even in the case that the handle is closed such as  a ring.

                                                                                                            Bye!
Title: Re: An exploding hitch
Post by: X1 on July 01, 2013, 08:35:59 AM
...they can be tied in any case in the bight even in the case that the handle is a ring.

   Yes, indeed, that is a great advantage ! However, in my mind there are two, at least, kinds of hitches : the "snug", "tight" hitches, which remain in close contact on the surface of the pole or ring at all times, and the "loose" hitches / nooses, which are not. Your "exploding" hitch starts as a "snug" hitch, and it becomes stable only after it consumes a part of the locked tail bight, becomes very loose, and reaches a new equilibrium as a "loose" hitch. A Strange Case of Mister Hyde and Doctor Jekyll s hitch !  :)  What is the knot tyer supposed to do ? Tie it on the surface of the pole, as a snug hitch, tighten it there, so that the two opposing bights lock the tail bight, and then pull the standing end until it reaches a new equilibrium, as a loose hitch ? Will he be able to focus his mind on his job ( and not be caught by the serif...)  while the two round turns will start becoming loose, the one after the other, and the locked tail bight will run the danger to slip through the now un-tensioned opposing bights, and let the appaloosa horse free ? Stand and Deliver an "exploding" snug hitch, or an "exploding" loose hitch, but nothing in between !  :)
   This second, thin line release mechanism dL describes, is an amusing figment of his Far West imagination... I believe that one can always release the hitch before he rides the horse - the sight of a cowboy pulling a line that will pull a trigger that will release a knot ( or fire a gun ), while he is on the back of his horse, would probably make the serif to die from excessive laughing !
Title: Re: An exploding hitch
Post by: X1 on July 01, 2013, 04:55:48 PM
   I do not know if there is any difference between a slipped "snug" hitch, and an "exploding" snug hitch...See the attached pictures for yet another quite tight "snug" hitch, - a two-wrap one, like the "exploding" hitch shown in this thread. I suppose that, at those hitches, the main factor that would determine if it can "explode" or not, would be the ratio of the rider s to the horse s strength !  :)
Title: Re: An exploding hitch
Post by: Luca on July 02, 2013, 02:45:28 AM
Hi X1,

This seems to be a good and simple "back-handed" hitch, is a "quick-releasing" hitch, but is not an "exploding" hitch: my friends are not entirely convinced about the use of this knot:I have tried to tell them :"Guys, if we try to enter the country without going to cackling at full gallop,screaming out loud" YPPYHAYHEE! ",and shooting bullets in the air, then perhaps the sheriff is not alarmed so quickly, and then maybe we could run a hitch more reliable than those that we usually use to tie up our horses! ",but they did not give me a lot of listening;we must understand them:they are guys with a spontaneous character, they were brought up this way, and I do not feel to blame them for this!
 
                                                                                                               Bye!(and thanks for this hitch: I personally like very much!)
Title: Re: An exploding hitch
Post by: X1 on July 02, 2013, 04:27:48 AM
..it is a "quick-releasing" hitch, but it is not an "exploding" hitch:
   I understand that the two wraps around the pole would have to rotate, for a fraction of a second, before they will be able to be detached from it... but I still can not "define" the exact difference between those two kinds of hitches !
Title: Re: An exploding hitch
Post by: xarax on April 10, 2014, 11:13:28 PM
   For another exploding hitch, see :
   http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1962.0
   and the attached picture, of the "Getaway hitch", a knot tied by knot4u.
   I still believe that the "slipped snug hitch", shown at Reply#15
   http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4463.msg28346#msg28346
   is a better, tighter knot.
Title: Re: An exploding hitch
Post by: xarax on April 11, 2014, 07:19:59 PM
   On p. 15 of the pompously titled book : The Knot Bible ( by Nick Compton, 2013 ) there is a picture of a one-wrap exploding hitch, called : "Exploding Clove hitch". It is a useful knot, provided it is tied properly : the slipped Tail End should penetrate the Clove hitch from the opposite side, so the "neck" nub would be better balanced in relation to its three loaded limbs - that is, the knot should be tied as shown in the attached picture. In general, when it is tied around a segment of a rope, which is a "compressible" material, the Clove hitch has a tendency to clinch hard, even to jam, so the Clove hitch-based "lock" of the slipped Tail in this knot would be secure enough.
Title: Re: An exploding hitch
Post by: Mobius on May 31, 2015, 11:33:23 AM
   On p. 15 of the pompously titled book : The Knot Bible ( by Nick Compton, 2013 ) there is a picture of a one-wrap exploding hitch, called : "Exploding Clove hitch". It is a useful knot, provided it is tied properly : the slipped Tail End should penetrate the Clove hitch from the opposite side, so the "neck" nub would be better balanced in relation to its three loaded limbs - that is, the knot should be tied as shown in the attached picture. In general, when it is tied around a segment of a rope, which is a "compressible" material, the Clove hitch has a tendency to clinch hard, even to jam, so the Clove hitch-based "lock" of the slipped Tail in this knot would be secure enough.

I like your version of it better, though the version I trialled (before I knew what it was ;) ) in another thread was the 'Exploding Clove hitch'. Seems like a good knot to me, better your way I suspect for the same reasons you give.

Cheers,

mobius
Title: Re: An exploding hitch
Post by: Sweeney on May 31, 2015, 03:45:25 PM
In another thread discussion of the Analysis of Bowlines Agent Smith refers to KM 23 of 1988. Reading that issue I found a picture of a Tumble Hitch (on page 12) albeit shown from the reverse side of the way it is usually depicted. Presumably it was known for some time before then (the article is about how to use a photocopier to take pictures of knots).
Title: Re: An exploding hitch
Post by: roo on May 31, 2015, 04:50:17 PM
In another thread discussion of the Analysis of Bowlines Agent Smith refers to KM 23 of 1988. Reading that issue I found a picture of a Tumble Hitch (on page 12) albeit shown from the reverse side of the way it is usually depicted. Presumably it was known for some time before then (the article is about how to use a photocopier to take pictures of knots).
Not quite:
http://notableknotindex.webs.com/tumblehitch.html

Notice the little lower collar around the standing part as it just enters the Tumble Hitch.
Title: Re: An exploding hitch
Post by: Luca on May 31, 2015, 05:01:56 PM
Hi Sweeney,

It looks like a "classic" Highwayman's hitch.
I take the opportunity to post a picture illustrating the shape that I gave to the knot of my first post, not realizing that it was a more "compact" dressing of the Tumble hitch.

                                                                                                                                       Bye!
(http://)
Title: Re: An exploding hitch
Post by: Sweeney on May 31, 2015, 09:30:35 PM
It looks like a "classic" Highwayman's hitch.

Yes, looking at it again it is just the ordinary HH.