International Guild of Knot Tyers Forum

General => Practical Knots => Topic started by: Festy on June 10, 2013, 10:10:58 PM

Title: Which knots to know?
Post by: Festy on June 10, 2013, 10:10:58 PM
"A stranger is just a friend you do not know"  ;)

Hi friends,

I'm a complete novice at tying knots having only recently become interested in the genre. I find that tying a knot in a piece of paracord while waiting for, say a dental appointment or the like, to be wonderfully calming.

I've been lurking here awhile and have absorbed a lot of 'knotty' information, but I still find that in any given scenario which requires a knot, I am sometimes at a loss to know which is the best one to use, because there are so many to choose from.

So, may I make so bold as to ask the following question -

- supposing that some higher power decreed that you would only be allowed to use 5 knots for the remainder of your life, which 5 would cover all contingencies, or if indeed 5 would be enough?

 - Festy  :)
Title: Re: Which knots to know?
Post by: roo on June 10, 2013, 11:27:05 PM
"A stranger is just a friend you do not know"  ;)

Hi friends,

I'm a complete novice at tying knots having only recently become interested in the genre. I find that tying a knot in a piece of paracord while waiting for, say a dental appointment or the like, to be wonderfully calming.

I've been lurking here awhile and have absorbed a lot of 'knotty' information, but I still find that in any given scenario which requires a knot, I am sometimes at a loss to know which is the best one to use, because there are so many to choose from.

So, may I make so bold as to ask the following question -

- supposing that some higher power decreed that you would only be allowed to use 5 knots for the remainder of your life, which 5 would cover all contingencies, or if indeed 5 would be enough?

 - Festy  :)
That's a little like asking which 20 English words you need to know to cover all contingencies.  After stumbling long enough, you'll probably come to the conclusion that it's easier to learn more words.   ;D

But since you're a beginner, maybe you can start learning the language of knots with some simple ones, and then branch out from there:

http://notableknotindex.webs.com/timberhitch.html
http://notableknotindex.webs.com/pilehitch.html
http://notableknotindex.webs.com/gnathitch.html
http://notableknotindex.webs.com/reefknot.html
http://notableknotindex.webs.com/bowline.html

I hope that's not too much of an evasion.   :)
Title: Re: Which knots to know?
Post by: Luca on June 11, 2013, 12:34:10 AM
Hi,

If you happen, this was the knot for evade from prison(one have some hunger for freedom to decide to use it at more than five meters in height..)

                                                                                                                Bye!

(http://)
Title: Re: Which knots to know?
Post by: roo on June 11, 2013, 03:59:02 AM
If you happen, this was the knot for evade from prison(one have some hunger for freedom to decide to use it at more than five meters in height..)
A knot endorsed by the warden, no doubt.  Yikes.
Title: Re: Which knots to know?
Post by: X1 on June 11, 2013, 10:40:36 AM
   this was the knot for evade from prison

  Very nice knot / solution for not letting traces of the prisoner s escape route. !  :) I was aware of the ABoK#2535, but not this...
Title: Re: Which knots to know?
Post by: erizo1 on June 11, 2013, 11:02:26 AM
Hi, Festy. I'm pretty new to knot tying myself, and while I think Roo's analogy about English words is a good one, I can resonate with this question. I've learned about 70 knots at this point, so hopefully these choices come from enough of a breadth of options to be a decent selection, but I have a smaller list of 20 that cover pretty much every situation I can imagine encountering (e.g., I'm not a climber, so I'm not likely to need to Prusik my way to safety), so in my opinion you wouldn't need to expand your knot vocabulary too much farther to really have most of your bases covered (knots reliable enough to trust with your life, double and triple loops, more specialized binders, etc.).

I recommend the following, and I'll give my reasons for each. The limitation of your question is that I'm choosing these as the knots a person might find most useful in daily life (the majority of the time). Obviously, if you want to get into sailing or rock climbing, you'll have to get more specialized.

1. Bowline - best all-purpose loop knot, easy to tie; I have to have a particular reason to use a different loop knot

2. Double sheet bend - a good multipurpose way to join to ropes that will accommodate a difference in diameter between the ropes (larger one forms the U, smaller one does the wraps); the double is almost as quick and easy to tie as the single, and will hold reliably in a broader variety of situations

3. Reef knot - my most frequently used binding knot, the easiest and best suited to most day-to-day use; there are better binders for various situations, but very often, the reef knot will do; it's worth knowing the difference between this and the granny knot because the latter is unreliable and can jam

4. Round turn and two half-hitches - works around pretty much any object, and possible to tie under strain, which I find is often the case (you're hoisting something or suspending something or trying to maintain tension in the line when it's tied off)

5. Adjustable grip hitch - a good tension knot (better than the tautline in my opinion) that provides enough tension and grip for most things I ever need to do; I have also used it as a binding knot for cinching tight around a bundle or similar thing; if you have a pick-up and need to tie things down really tight somewhat often, substitute the trucker's hitch

Best wishes, hope this helps.
Title: Re: Which knots to know?
Post by: X1 on June 11, 2013, 12:19:20 PM
2. Double sheet bend

Why do you prefer this bend from the Zeppelin bend ? Inkanyezi has shown that the Zeppelin bend works fine with ropes of different diameters, too.
Title: Re: Which knots to know?
Post by: erizo1 on June 11, 2013, 02:28:46 PM
Why do you prefer this bend from the Zeppelin bend ? Inkanyezi has shown that the Zeppelin bend works fine with ropes of different diameters, too.

I went back and forth on this. I love the zeppelin bend, and whenever I'm bending the working ends of two lines, I prefer to use the zeppelin bend: I think it's elegant, it just won't let go, you can always undo it easily, etc. I wasn't confident I could speak to whether the zeppelin can deal with lines of different diameters. I've seen references to double wrapping just the smaller line when there's a great difference; how great a difference can the normal single wraps accommodate?

The thing about the sheet bend is that it's so versatile. The zeppelin bend is limited to two working ends (as far as I know), whereas anywhere you can make a bight, you can tie a sheet bend, including the mid-span sheet bend, which is tied using only bights in the middle of two ropes. You can use it to bend a working end to a loop, bend two loops together, tie two lines into one bight to make a three-way sheet bend, etc. I've found a surprising number of situations in which I couldn't use a zeppelin and a sheet bend did the job. I wanted to choose just one bend to recommend, so I picked that one.
Title: Re: Which knots to know?
Post by: roo on June 11, 2013, 03:01:32 PM
I wasn't confident I could speak to whether the zeppelin can deal with lines of different diameters.
It does surprisingly well in my experience.
Title: Re: Which knots to know?
Post by: erizo1 on June 11, 2013, 03:09:07 PM
Festy, my apologies, I realized rereading your post that I misinterpreted your question somewhat. It sounds like you know a number of knots, and your question is about which knot to select for a given application.

I recommend picking favorites as you go. Sometimes several knots will do the same job, so you need a non-practical reason to choose one over the others. If I consciously label a knot as a favorite (either because it is the one best suited to a task, or because out of the ones that will work I prefer it for reasons of familiarity or aesthetics), it comes to mind more readily, and the others fade into the background because, in a sense, I have given myself permission to forget about them, with the confidence that I can meet my needs without them.

I actually have a list of all the knots I know, broken up into categories, with my favorites highlighted. I keep the non-highlighted ones out of interest, but I practice and mostly use my favorites. For example, when I think of hitches, all things being equal, I would prefer to use a slipped buntline: it holds pretty much no matter what and can accommodate just about any shape object, but mostly I just like tying it. A gnat hitch will do basically the same job, but I simply don't enjoy tying it for whatever reason, so I don't bother with it.

Anyway, I think taking the time to go through the list of all the ones you know and allowing yourself to basically develop an affinity for particular ones may help with the selection process in the moment. I haven't forgotten how to tie the others on my list, I just don't need them coming to mind most of the time.
Title: Re: Which knots to know?
Post by: X1 on June 11, 2013, 03:20:45 PM
how great a difference can the normal single wraps accommodate?

See the picture at :
http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=2159.msg15456#msg15456
DO NOT see the picture at :
http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=2159.msg15415#msg15415
(  :) )

   I am not sure that all the knots you mention are "proper" Sheet bends... Is the Blackwall hitch a Sheet-bend-based hitch ?
   Anyway, I see your point. The Zeppelin knot is a beautiful pure symmetric bend bend ( end-to-end knot ), and the desperate attempts ( by people who have not been able to understand how it works ) to deform it badly, and then utilize what is left out of it as an ugly loop ( the fake, so-called "Zeppelin loop" ), had failed miserably - despite the systematic advertising here and there in the web.
    Perhaps you should also use, as arguments in favour of the Sheet bend, the most simple symmetric bend there is ( and can be ), the Symmetric Sheet bend (1), or the bowline-like ( post-eye-tiable ) eyeknot, the Sheet bend "bowline" (2), because it can serve as a lockable slide-and-grip loop (3).

1.  http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3716.0
2.  http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3233.msg23702#msg23702
3.  http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4162.msg25275#msg25275
Title: Re: Which knots to know?
Post by: Festy on June 11, 2013, 04:17:12 PM
Guys, thanks for replying to my query.

Roo: I looked up the links you gave and I never knew that the bowline is not a secure knot under certain circumstances. I've read that some people call it the 'King of Knots' but it's amazing what you find out when you ask the right person.

Luca: I've shown your knot to my boss and hopefully he'll try it out soon  :) (only joking)

Erizo1: wow, 70 knots, I'd know very few compared to that. The 'round turn with 2 half hitches' is amazing, it hardly seems to be a knot at all and yet it's grip is powerful.

Another question, this time about the Zeppelin knot that you guys all seem to think highly of: can it be used instead of the bowline setup which features in this video - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6EyfYyJkZss?

That is to say can you start with a 'double Zeppelin' and the two more 'Zeppelins' at waist and chest? If yes, is there a link to show how they are tied?

Thanks guys!  ;)
Title: Re: Which knots to know?
Post by: erizo1 on June 11, 2013, 05:01:00 PM
Don't be too impressed with 70 knots, there seem to be a lot of people on this forum who have an encyclopedic knowledge of the Ashley Book of Knots (ABOK) which has thousands :-)
Title: Re: Which knots to know?
Post by: roo on June 12, 2013, 03:50:08 AM
That is to say can you start with a 'double Zeppelin' and the two more 'Zeppelins' at waist and chest? If yes, is there a link to show how they are tied?
Hmmm.  I'm a bit perplexed by this, but if you're looking for an emergency body harness, I've written up a discussion of the topic here:

http://notableknotindex.webs.com/triplebowline.html
Title: Re: Which knots to know?
Post by: Festy on June 12, 2013, 01:34:27 PM

Hmmm.  I'm a bit perplexed by this, but if you're looking for an emergency body harness, I've written up a discussion of the topic here:

http://notableknotindex.webs.com/triplebowline.html

Thanks for that. A noble site, which I've now bookmarked.

While on the site I clicked onto the 'Zeppelin Loop' page and theres one instruction for the double loop that I can't figure out, as follows:

"Merely repeat the final tuck to obtain the Double Zeppelin Loop."

I've looked on Youtube and cannot find a demo of it, so would it be possible for you to elucidate further if you can spare the time?

Thanks again for replying.

Title: Re: Which knots to know?
Post by: roo on June 12, 2013, 04:02:19 PM


While on the site I clicked onto the 'Zeppelin Loop' page and theres one instruction for the double loop that I can't figure out, as follows:

"Merely repeat the final tuck to obtain the Double Zeppelin Loop."
Like a Double Bowline (http://notableknotindex.webs.com/doublebowline.html), the Double Zeppelin Loop is a single loop knot with a complication to further increase security for demanding conditions.

In this case, repeating the final step merely means following the path of the black arrow again:
http://notableknotindex.webs.com/zeppelinloop.html

P.S.  It may be instructive tie a Double Zeppelin Bend to see this extra step (carried out with on both halves of the knot, instead of just one):
http://notableknotindex.webs.com/Zeppelin.html
(last image)
Title: Re: Which knots to know?
Post by: roo on June 12, 2013, 06:08:15 PM
...the fake, so-called "Zeppelin loop" to its devoted believers...
You're the only one who refuses to see the correspondence between the Zeppelin Bend and the Zeppelin Loop.  Get over it already.  Do we really have to hear the same nutty line every time someone discusses the Zeppelin Loop?
Title: Re: Which knots to know?
Post by: Festy on June 12, 2013, 06:40:13 PM

Like a Double Bowline (http://notableknotindex.webs.com/doublebowline.html), the Double Zeppelin Loop is a single loop knot with a complication to further increase security for demanding conditions.

In this case, repeating the final step merely means following the path of the black arrow again:
http://notableknotindex.webs.com/zeppelinloop.html

P.S.  It may be instructive tie a Double Zeppelin Bend to see this extra step (carried out with on both halves of the knot, instead of just one):
http://notableknotindex.webs.com/Zeppelin.html
(last image)

Aha, I was confusing a 'Double Zeppelin Loop' with something which may not be tieable at all - a 'Two Loop Zeppelin' - my bad!  :-[

Title: Re: Which knots to know?
Post by: knot4u on June 12, 2013, 08:56:20 PM
1. Bowline - best all-purpose loop knot, easy to tie; I have to have a particular reason to use a different loop knot

2. Double sheet bend - a good multipurpose way to join to ropes that will accommodate a difference in diameter between the ropes (larger one forms the U, smaller one does the wraps); the double is almost as quick and easy to tie as the single, and will hold reliably in a broader variety of situations

3. Reef knot - my most frequently used binding knot, the easiest and best suited to most day-to-day use; there are better binders for various situations, but very often, the reef knot will do; it's worth knowing the difference between this and the granny knot because the latter is unreliable and can jam

4. Round turn and two half-hitches - works around pretty much any object, and possible to tie under strain, which I find is often the case (you're hoisting something or suspending something or trying to maintain tension in the line when it's tied off)

5. Adjustable grip hitch - a good tension knot (better than the tautline in my opinion) that provides enough tension and grip for most things I ever need to do; I have also used it as a binding knot for cinching tight around a bundle or similar thing; if you have a pick-up and need to tie things down really tight somewhat often, substitute the trucker's hitch

That's not a bad list.  What's funny is that most of those knots are not my "favorite" for their category, and in reality I would most often be using different knots for the particular purpose because in reality I have memorized a multitude of other knots that are specialized for niche applications.  However, versatility is essential when there are only five slots.  Each knot should have a broad range of capabilities, as those knots do.
Title: Re: Which knots to know?
Post by: X1 on June 12, 2013, 09:53:23 PM
   My recent short list, of the 7 most useful knots.

1. Blackwall hitch..
2. Gleipnir.
3. Bowline.
4. Zeppelin knot.
5. Round turn and two half hitches.
6. Alpine Butterfly midline loop.
7. One knot you are going to figure out and tie by yourself.

  Regarding number #7, I do not mean a "new", or even a "good" or a "nice" knot ! I mean a knot that one would tie by just playing with the ropes, trying to figure out a simple enough and stable tangle, where the tail(s) will not slip out of the knot s nub too easily. It may be a new or an already known to everybody knot, a good or a bad knot, a nice or an ugly knot, it does nt matter ! The important thing is that this will show to the novice knot tier that knot tying is not rocket science, that knots are very simple rope-made mechanisms that can easily be explained / understood, and that everybody can enjoy knotting.
Title: Re: Which knots to know?
Post by: knot4u on June 12, 2013, 10:40:07 PM
2. Gleipnir.
3. Bowline.
4. Zeppelin knot.
5. Round turn and two half hitches.
6. Alpine Butterfly midline loop.

Taking out your 1 and 7, that's a decent five.
Title: Re: Which knots to know?
Post by: X1 on June 12, 2013, 11:24:41 PM
   The Blackwall hitch is a marvellous and a very useful knot, which, unfortunately, has not received the attention it deserves by the community of knot tyers. People believe that it can tied only within "hooks", and they do not realize that, for a rope, a hook is not much different from a bight  !  :) The Blackwall hitch can be tied at the tip of any loop, around the one leg, therefore it is an amazing simple and efficient way to connect a loop and a line. "Connect a loop and a line": a very useful thing.
Title: Re: Which knots to know?
Post by: knot4u on June 13, 2013, 12:24:59 AM
Yeah, but the limit here is 5 slots.  If I get to add more slots, even just one more, then the entire dynamic of all the knots changes.
Title: Re: Which knots to know?
Post by: X1 on June 13, 2013, 12:50:49 AM
Yeah, but the limit here is 5 slots.  If I get to add more slots, even just one more, then the entire dynamic of all the knots changes.

  If this is so, I know what I will do : I will take out the Blackwall hitch, the Alpine Butterfly midline loop and the Bowline ! Now that I can not have my #7, I do not need to be modest !  :) I will replace the Alpine Butterfly ( a TIB loop ) and the Bowline ( a PET loop ), with the "pet loop", presented recently, which is TIB AND PET loop, at the same time ! So, I now have one more empty slot, which I think I will fill with the Strangle / double overhand knot. So, my strictly 5-slot list is the following :

1. Gleipnir.
2. pet Loop
3. Zeppelin knot
4. Round turn and two half hitches.
5. Strangle / double overhand.
Title: Re: Which knots to know?
Post by: knot4u on June 13, 2013, 03:05:14 AM
1.  Double Dragon Loop
The Double Dragon Loop beat out the Bowline because it's more secure and I have been able to tie a Double Dragon everywhere I can tie a Bowline.  Bowline is easily tied with one hand, but security is a priority for me.  The DD can be tied in the bight, unlike the Bowline.  As an end loop, the DD does not need a pre-knot, unlike the Zeppelin and the Butterfly.

2.  Roundturn and Two Half Hitches
Not much to say, this knot just has to be here.

3.  Reef
I was torn between the Reef and the Gleipnir.  It was a compromise.  The mid-air capability of the Gleipnir is quite valuable, but I can use the Blake Hitch listed below as a mid-air binder.  Also, I don't want to tie my shoes with a Gleipnir or any other knot on this list.  Also, the Reef can serve as a bend.

4.  Blake Hitch
The Blake Hitch beat out the Adjustable Grip Hitch because the Blake grips better and both these knots have basically one purpose, gripping.

5.  Sheet Bend
The Sheet Bend beat the Zeppelin Bend because the mid-span capability of the Sheet Bend is quite valuable. 

I wanted to get a fishing knot (line-to-lure) in there, but I couldn't justify a fishing knot taking one-fifth of the slots.  Anyway, this is all fantasy because in reality I don't restrict myself to 5 knots.  I have about 5 favorite knots per category and 12 categories.
Title: Re: Which knots to know?
Post by: erizo1 on June 13, 2013, 04:48:52 AM
Two knots mentioned here are new to me, and I'm delighted to know them. The Gleipnir weirds me out because it doesn't seem like it could even count as a knot. It's elegant in it's simplicity, but it also kind of looks like voodoo to me. The fact that it works in mid-air is even crazier.

The other is Blake's hitch, which is awesome. I love that it functions as a one-stranded Prusik-type knot, and it certainly seems to have a more robust grip than the adjustable grip hitch.

These two knots have bumped two others from my short list of best knots, so Festy, thank you for the gift two new knots as a result of your post.
Title: Re: Which knots to know?
Post by: knot4u on June 13, 2013, 04:57:18 AM
I need a stopper in my list, but I can't justify taking off one of the knots I listed.
Title: Re: Which knots to know?
Post by: roo on June 13, 2013, 05:12:13 AM
The Gleipnir weirds me out because it doesn't seem like it could even count as a knot.
If you have a loop, you can use it as a pulley simulator.  You'll get more tension than the Gleipnir, have better stability, and you'll use about half as much line.  Win-win-win.
Title: Re: Which knots to know?
Post by: X1 on June 13, 2013, 05:13:52 AM
1.  Double Dragon Loop
The Double Dragon Loop beat out the Bowline because it's more secure... security is a priority for me.

  There are many other bowline-like loops ( post-eye-tiable = PET loops ) that are far more secure than the "common" bowline - and one can always "lock" the "common" bowline "afterwards" very easily, if the application is demanding, by a second collar and an additional tuck of the tail through its nipping loop  -  like it happens in the Janus bowlines or the Lee s and Luca most secure locked bowlines, for example. Sailors always use the bowline as a mooring knot for a security reason that has nothing to do with the slippage of the tail : a knot that has to be untied from the standing part at a second stage, after the closed bight of the eye has been opened up, and the loop has been detached from its anchor, is a dangerous thing ! It can be caught up somewhere, and present security problems . That is the main disadvantage of all non-PET loops, like the Double Perfection loop / Dragon : they require a two-stage untying, and the second stage has to happen when the loop has already been opened up, i.e., when the rope is free to be pulled out, and the remaining knot-to-be-untied is moving along with the pulling object far from the desperate untying hands !  :)

4.  Blake Hitch
The Blake Hitch beat out the Adjustable Grip Hitch because the Blake grips better and both these knots have basically one purpose, gripping.

   Noope ! The adjustable gripping hitch is an adjustable gripping hitch !  :) You can not adjust the Blake hitch without moving it, as a whole, on the main line, i.e. changing the point of the main line it is gripping.
   However, I think that a rope gripping hitch is a somewhat special knot - one does not attach a line on a line with the help of a gripping friction hitch very often, because, most of the time, he/she can achieve the same thing by other, simpler means : a bend, a loop, etc. A rope-gripping hitch is, to my view, a luxury to a 5 seats UV...

  the mid-span capability of the Sheet Bend is quite valuable. 

   There is no such a thing as a "mid-span capability of the Sheet bend" ! There is a mid-span capability of each and every mid-span bight / loop, which can serve as a means to attach things on it later, at a second stage. What you are talking about is a mid-line loop, in general ( which is missing from your collection - I believe that it is an indispensable tool for the knot tyer...), and not the Sheet bend in particular. I thought that you were to include your favourite Span loop, so I could advertise the pet Loop a little more  :) , but you did not. A more easy choice would be the Butterfly loop.

   As a fantasy, of course, this is quite an amusing game : It is a rough sketch of each knot tyer s knowledge, experience and personal style, more than a snapshot of the knotLand itself, but it is entertaining...
   P.S. Edited. The Double Dragon is a fine PET AND TIB loop !
Title: Re: Which knots to know?
Post by: X1 on June 13, 2013, 05:16:41 AM
I need a stopper in my list, but I can't justify taking off one of the knots I listed.

Notice my choice : the double overhand bend, that is also a hitch, the strangle. You can insert two knots in the same slot by that trick !  :)
Title: Re: Which knots to know?
Post by: roo on June 13, 2013, 05:20:11 AM
. Sailors always use the bowline as a mooring knot [...]
, when the rope is free to be pulled out, and the remaining knot-to-be-untied is moving along with the pulling object far from the desperate untying hands !  :)
This doesn't pass the sniff test.  If the rope is under tension, pulling itself away, you need to be using a load-releasing hitch (http://notableknotindex.webs.com/slippedbuntline.html) of some sort, not a loop.
Title: Re: Which knots to know?
Post by: X1 on June 13, 2013, 05:34:25 AM
. Sailors always use the bowline as a mooring knot [...]
, when the rope is free to be pulled out, and the remaining knot-to-be-untied is moving along with the pulling object far from the desperate untying hands !  :)
This doesn't pass the sniff test.  If the rope is under tension, pulling itself away, you need to be using a load-releasing hitch (http://notableknotindex.webs.com/slippedbuntline.html) of some sort, not a loop.

  Tell a sailor to use a slipped buntline releasing hitch as a mooring knot - but do not forget, please, to carry your shepherd s crook to defend yourself !  :)
 
Title: Re: Which knots to know?
Post by: erizo1 on June 13, 2013, 06:24:36 AM
If you have a loop, you can use it as a pulley simulator.  You'll get more tension than the Gleipnir, have better stability, and you'll use about half as much line.  Win-win-win.

I can't picture what you mean. Do you have a diagram or picture of this?



And knot4u, thanks very much for your description of the reason you chose the double dragon. I've seen it before, but it looked complicated and I was happy with the loops I already knew, so I didn't bother learning it, but I like that it's secure and easier to untie than a perfection loop (which I really like but seldom use because I don't want to risk it jamming on me), and a little less awkwardly aligned with the standing part than the zeppelin loop.

The double dragon's main competitor in my mind would be the yosemite bowline: good security, doesn't need the pre-tied overhand, won't jam. How would you compare the two?
Title: Re: Which knots to know?
Post by: erizo1 on June 13, 2013, 06:39:50 AM
I just noticed how easily the double dragon falls apart once you loosen it and pull the main loop back through the collar (I think I'm referring to the collar correctly?). That's very appealing to me compared with completely retracing the path of the yosemite bowline to undo it.
Title: Re: Which knots to know?
Post by: roo on June 13, 2013, 06:50:44 AM
If you have a loop, you can use it as a pulley simulator.  You'll get more tension than the Gleipnir, have better stability, and you'll use about half as much line.  Win-win-win.

I can't picture what you mean. Do you have a diagram or picture of this?
If you have a loop on one end, you can thread the other end through the loop, much like a pulley to get some mechanical advantage on whatever you are binding, almost the same as a Trucker's Hitch.  Then, it's just a matter of tying off with half hitches.
Title: Re: Which knots to know?
Post by: roo on June 13, 2013, 07:00:15 AM
And knot4u, thanks very much for your description of the reason you chose the double dragon. I've seen it before, but it looked complicated and I was happy with the loops I already knew, so I didn't bother learning it,
Did you find a memorable/easy way of tying it as an end loop that you can thread through an object?

ref:
http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3682.msg21356#msg21356

Title: Re: Which knots to know?
Post by: erizo1 on June 13, 2013, 12:15:32 PM
Did you find a memorable/easy way of tying it [the double dragon loop] as an end loop that you can thread through an object?

Yep. I watched this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tj3mXk_FbBk. After doing it once or twice, I found it pretty easy to commit to memory. I learned it yesterday and on waking this morning, I'm confident I can do it from memory without any trouble.
Title: Re: Which knots to know?
Post by: roo on June 13, 2013, 03:14:54 PM
Did you find a memorable/easy way of tying it [the double dragon loop] as an end loop that you can thread through an object?

Yep. I watched this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tj3mXk_FbBk. After doing it once or twice, I found it pretty easy to commit to memory. I learned it yesterday and on waking this morning, I'm confident I can do it from memory without any trouble.
I'll look over this more, but I see many openings for easy error of what to wrap/tuck where/when.
Title: Re: Which knots to know?
Post by: knot4u on June 13, 2013, 03:25:36 PM
If you have a loop, you can use it as a pulley simulator.  You'll get more tension than the Gleipnir, have better stability, and you'll use about half as much line.  Win-win-win.

I can't picture what you mean. Do you have a diagram or picture of this?
If you have a loop on one end, you can thread the other end through the loop, much like a pulley to get some mechanical advantage on whatever you are binding, almost the same as a Trucker's Hitch.  Then, it's just a matter of tying off with half hitches.

Then, a Half Hitch must be part of your five, or end that Trucker with a Roundturn and Two Half Hitches. If we all get a Half Hitch as a bonus knot, then my list changes.
Title: Re: Which knots to know?
Post by: roo on June 13, 2013, 03:29:41 PM
Then, a Half Hitch must be part of your five, or end that Trucker with a Roundturn and Two Half Hitches. If we all get a Half Hitch as a bonus knot, then my list changes.
I'm abstaining from making a list of five per the original intent of this thread.  I'd hope the OP learns a wider variety of knots, but it's an interesting discussion. ;)
Title: Re: Which knots to know?
Post by: knot4u on June 13, 2013, 03:33:57 PM
If you have a loop, you can use it as a pulley simulator.  You'll get more tension than the Gleipnir, have better stability, and you'll use about half as much line.  Win-win-win.

I can't picture what you mean. Do you have a diagram or picture of this?



And knot4u, thanks very much for your description of the reason you chose the double dragon. I've seen it before, but it looked complicated and I was happy with the loops I already knew, so I didn't bother learning it, but I like that it's secure and easier to untie than a perfection loop (which I really like but seldom use because I don't want to risk it jamming on me), and a little less awkwardly aligned with the standing part than the zeppelin loop.

The double dragon's main competitor in my mind would be the yosemite bowline: good security, doesn't need the pre-tied overhand, won't jam. How would you compare the two?

I see like DD better than the Janus. The DD is smaller and more elegant. I have not tested differences in security between the two.

Anyway, don't forget the limit here is five. You don't get to choose Bowline and all variations thereof. If we get to choose knot families, then my list changes and this discussion spirals out of control. If you choose Janus, then that's your knot, not the regular Bowline. Most knots on my list are a compromise and not necessarily the knot I would use for the category.
Title: Re: Which knots to know?
Post by: Festy on June 13, 2013, 03:37:34 PM
Would the consensus then be, from reading the posts so far, that the 'Roundturn and Two Half Hitches' has to be included in the "Forum Five"?  :)
Title: Re: Which knots to know?
Post by: erizo1 on June 13, 2013, 04:13:12 PM
Anyway, don't forget the limit here is five. You don't get to choose Bowline and all variations thereof. If we get to choose knot families, then my list changes and this discussion spirals out of control. If you choose Janus, then that's your knot, not the regular Bowline. Most knots on my list are a compromise and not necessarily the knot I would use for the category.

Sorry, I was straying from the list of five into a general comparison of loops. I guess I would probably replace the bowline with the DD on my list of five. Simplicity and speed of tying are in the bowline's favor, but I'm never in situations when I need to tie a knot super fast, and assuming I'm making a list of knots I already know (the bowline would be easier to learn, of course), I would probably switch out the bowline for the DD. That leaves me with:

1. Double dragon loop
2. Double sheet bend
3. Reef knot
4. Round turn and two half-hitches
5. Blake's hitch



Would the consensus then be, from reading the posts so far, that the 'Roundturn and Two Half Hitches' has to be included in the "Forum Five"?  :)

You need a multipurpose hitch, and I can't imagine a better one to include. It's simple, easy to tie, won't jam, holds well, accommodates objects of a variety of shapes, and can be tied under load (this feature in particular is huge, this is needed fairly frequently in my experience, and there don't seem to be a lot of hitches for which this is true). Of course, my knowledge base is somewhat limited; at last count, I know 25 hitches. I'm happy to defer to people who know a broader array of knots than I do.
Title: Re: Which knots to know?
Post by: X1 on June 13, 2013, 08:36:24 PM
I like the DD better than the Janus. The DD is smaller and more elegant.
 
  You mean "compact ", I believe. Indeed, most safe bowlines are not very compact, and many of them use two collars, at a distance from each other, which makes them very elongated. However, the "locked" bowlines are also compact and quite elegant : See the Lee s locked bowline, at the attached pictures.
 
Title: Re: Which knots to know?
Post by: Festy on June 13, 2013, 08:55:40 PM

 
Indeed, most safe bowlines are not very compact, and many of them use two collars, at a distance from each other, which makes them very elongated. However, the "locked" bowlines are also compact and quite elegant : See the Lee s locked bowline, at the attached pictures.

Which bowline variant is most secure and safest of all, in your opinion?
Title: Re: Which knots to know?
Post by: Luca on June 13, 2013, 09:22:14 PM
Hi Roo,

If you have a loop on one end, you can thread the other end through the loop, much like a pulley to get some mechanical advantage on whatever you are binding, almost the same as a Trucker's Hitch.  Then, it's just a matter of tying off with half hitches.

One of the first knots I learned :maybe it is due to my habit,but I find that this solution is simple, fast and effective, and a really good starting  to make very compact parcels with twine.(The only "flaw", in this case, is that the mechanical advantage is likely to make you break the twine, if you pull too hard, or if the twine is not good ...)

                                                                                                          Bye!
Title: Re: Which knots to know?
Post by: X1 on June 13, 2013, 09:29:44 PM
Which bowline variant is most secure and safest of all, in your opinion?
   
   Oh, my dear Festy, this is something we seek, not something we already know...
   I copy and paste the first titles of my "secure bowline-like loops" notebook :


Tweedledee bowline.
Double Collar Girth hitch(ed) common bowline (Mirrored bowline)
Double Collar Clove hitch(ed) common bowline (Double Water bowline)
Double Collar Girth hitch(ed) "Eskimo" bowline
Double Collar Constrictor bowline(s)( reversed - straight )
Double Collar Pretzel bowline(s) ( untwisted - twisted )
 
   Of course, they are many simpler, also very secure bowlines, but if I have the choice, I will trust the life of my son only in one of those. I do not consider an "overkill" the avoidance of being killed, even if it looks a little unreasonable, or even dumb !  :)     
   Now, what do you notice in this list ? That all the suggested bowlines are Double Collar / Double nipping loop ones...I can not explain my choice here in a few words, but keep it in your mind, as just a humble opinion of somebody who has tied thousands of bowlines and bowline-like loops in his life...   
   In order to proceed further, we should test all those knots in a controlled laboratory environment, using universal testing machines, a great variation of materials and samples, etc. As there are still people that do not even understand the difference between a bowline-like, post-eye-tiable loop and all the other loops, I doubt that I will live enough to be able to reply to your question, with NUMBERS.  :)   

 

 
Title: Re: Which knots to know?
Post by: knot4u on June 13, 2013, 09:37:34 PM
X1, this thread must feel like heaven to you.  I bet you don't know where to begin with all the criticism.  Are you not understanding the concept that it's five slots and just about every knot is, and should be, a compromise?

   There is no such a thing as a "mid-span capability of the Sheet bend" ! There is a mid-span capability of each and every mid-span bight / loop, which can serve as a means to attach things on it later, at a second stage. What you are talking about is a mid-line loop, in general ( which is missing from your collection - I believe that it is an indispensable tool for the knot tyer...), and not the Sheet bend in particular. I thought that you were to include your favourite Span loop, so I could advertise the pet Loop a little more  :), but you did not. A more easy choice would be the Butterfly loop.

The DD is a midspan loop.

Also, when I say "mid-span capability of the Sheet Bend," I'm including the case where one rope is "infinite" and one rope has an end that is accessible.

Thank you for playing.
Title: Re: Which knots to know?
Post by: X1 on June 13, 2013, 09:56:02 PM
   Are you not understanding the concept that it's five slots and just about every knot is, and should be, a compromise?
   
   You are too quick to ask rhetoric questions about my understanding...My 5-slots list was a compromise - I went even as far as to exclude the king of knots, and the Batterfly midline loop, to save a place, and I also used one slot to insert a stopper and a tight hitch at the same time.   

you don't know where to begin with all the criticism.
 
    Whose, in relation to whom ? I do not believe on can seriously criticize the fact that a bowline-like, post-eye-tiable (PET) AND tiable-in-the-bight (TIB) loop is useful, and more versatile than the others... Is the Double Perfection / Dragon Loop a PET AND a TIB loop ? [ Edit : Yes. it is. but nobody mentions this fact, and I was not aware of it, because I was under the impression that the Double Dragon was an altogether different animal, than it really is !  :)  ]. Or you do not understand those terms ?  :) ( THAT was a rhetoric question, like yours ! )
 
    Anything you can do with a Sheet bend you can also do with a mid-span bend we were discussing in the "midspan bends" thread, or with any midline loop. Do not confuse the bight of the Sheet bend, as a loop where you can attach things, with the function of the Sheet bend, as a bend. However, if you read my posts, you will see that I had "understood"  :)  the inclusion of the Sheet bend in one of the five slots, and I had even offered some further arguments in favour of it.
   
 
Title: Re: Which knots to know?
Post by: knot4u on June 13, 2013, 10:08:37 PM
Just to be clear, the Double Dragon is tie-able in the bight.  In contrast, the Bowline is not.

As an end-of-line loop, the DD does not need a pre-knot.  In contrast, the Butterfly and the Zeppelin do.

    Whose, in relation to whom ? I do not believe on can seriously criticize the fact that a bowline-like, post-eye-tiable (PET) AND tiable-in-the-bight (TIB) loop is useful, and more versatile than the others... Is the Double Perfection / Dragon Loop a PET AND a TIB loop ? Or you do not understand those terms ?  :) ( THAT was a rhetoric question, like yours ! )


I'm not really sure what you're saying there because it all seems to be criticism wrapped inside sarcasm wrapped inside a rhetorical question.  I'm confused.
Title: Re: Which knots to know?
Post by: X1 on June 13, 2013, 10:41:16 PM
Just to be clear, the Double Dragon is tie-able in the bight.  In contrast, the Bowline is not.

   True. However, the bowline is post-eye-tiable. The Double Perfection loop / Dragon is not.
   And the pet Loop I have included in my 5 slots is PET AND TIB loop at the same time .Do you think that this is perhaps a disadvantage ?  :)

  As an end-of-line loop, the DD does not need a pre-knot.  In contrast, the Butterfly and the Zeppelin do.

  I am not sure what you really mean by this "pre-knot:".. [ Edit : I know do ! After reading all tyour posts where you are talking about a "pre-knot" and "pre-knotting", I understood what should have been clear to me and/by you, right from the start ! A loop that does not require a "pre-knot" or "pre-knotting" ,is a loop that can be tied and untied by a " one-stage process", it is a "bowline-like" loop, it is a "post-eye-tiable = post-eye-untiable" ( PET) knot !  Better late than never !  :)  ]. The Butterfly is not a PET loop - and there is no "Zeppelin loop", other than a fake, deformed ex-Zeppelin bend, which does not work as the Zeppelin bend ( i.e., as a rope-made hinge ), and which is advertised only by a few devoted believers who do not understand the structural mechanism of the true Zeppelin, or the benefits of a PET loop that can be untied in one stage. If you wish to see a Zeppelin loop that is not just an evil imposter of the name, look at :
http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4095 (http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4095.msg24591#msg24591)
 
   I do not understand why, in place of the DD, you had not included the Span loop, which is PET and TIB loop at the same time ...[ Edit : Now, I do !  :)  ]

   I'm not really sure what you're saying there because it all seems to be criticism wrapped inside sarcasm wrapped inside a rhetorical question.  I'm confused.

   You are right, and I have to apologize for this behaviour. It became a knee-jerk reaction to the systematic twisting of what I write by roo, who does not understand, or pretends he does not understand, even ONE f... line of all I had written in the 2000 posts and 170 threads in this Forum ! If one could really calculate the odds all the sentences I have written there were absurd, the number would be larger than the Universe !  :) 
 
 
 
Title: Re: Which knots to know?
Post by: knot4u on June 13, 2013, 10:52:50 PM
True. However, the bowline is post-eye-tiable. The Double Perfection loop / Dragon is not.

The DD is post-eye-tiable.  It's also tiable-in-the-bight.
Title: Re: Which knots to know?
Post by: X1 on June 13, 2013, 11:26:35 PM
The DD is post-eye-tiable.  It's also tiable-in-the-bight.

   My KnotGod, I have been tied another Double Dragon. that existed only in my imagination, all those years !  :)  Why on earth you have not mentioned it until now ? We had the same conversation many times, and I always had a different knot in my mind - perhaps because I was confusing it with the Karash double loop ? I have found the true Double Dragon at :
http://daveroot.atspace.cc/knots/index.html (http://daveroot.atspace.cc/knots/index.html)
and it is a fine PET AND TIB loop, just like the Span loop. Stick to its tail !  :)

( I am not sure that I like the double coil used as a collar, but that is a different story. Being a PET AND a TIB loop makes every loop a most useful, versatile one ! Even the ABoK#1037, where the tail is less securely locked by the collar limbs, than in the Double Dragon, I think ).
 
   P.S. There ware two not-so brand new / recent threads about the Double Dragon, which were written while I was sleeping, evidently ! Why nobody had ever mentioned that the Double Dragon is a crossing-knot based loop ?
   http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=21.0 (http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=21.0)
   http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=112.0 (http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=112.0)
 

 
 
Title: Re: Which knots to know?
Post by: knot4u on June 13, 2013, 11:51:28 PM
Most people bypass the Double Dragon because it appears difficult to tie at first glance.  Even I ignored this knot for years.  Also, I listened to one bad review without testing it myself.  Somebody had said it jams.  However, I have so far been unable to jam the DD, and it's a pleasure to tie.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Df7pYB2T6vU
Title: Re: Which knots to know?
Post by: roo on June 14, 2013, 12:19:18 AM
Most people bypass the Double Dragon because it appears difficult to tie at first glance.  Even I ignored this knot for years.  Also, I listened to one bad review without testing it myself.  Somebody had said it jams.  However, I have so far been unable to jam the DD, and it's a pleasure to tie.
It is jam prone as a midline loop when the parent line is under tension, or when tied as a bend as Dave Root has depicted on his site. The Double Dragon Midline Loop variant doesn't seem to be jam prone when the loop is loaded and either the standing part is pulled by itself or when the loop is loaded and what is usually the free end is pulled by itself. 

In other words, the midline variant is OK when pulled on from one side only.
Title: Re: Which knots to know?
Post by: X1 on June 14, 2013, 12:30:43 AM
Most people bypass the Double Dragon because it appears difficult to tie at first glance.
 
   Myself I had bypassed the altogether different beast I was used to tie, because I was deceived by this silly name " Double" ! It has not a Double nipping loop, or a Double collar, neither it is a Double Loop ! Why on earth is it called "Double" ? Because of this double coil around its neck ? Which I am not even sure if it is really necessary ? Moreover, no one never mentioned the simple fact that it is just a crossing-knot based loop, i.e. PET = bowline-like ! And I have to tell you that you contributed to my mistake, by this wrong and/or misunderstood comment of yours, at :
http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3233.msg19363#msg19363 (http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3233.msg19363#msg19363)

every other Bowline [is] based on an Overhand knot.  Even the Water Bowline?  Yes, even the Water Bowline.  If you don't see the Overhand knot, then keep looking.

   As another example, the Double Dragon is also eliminated from the Bowline family because the working end does NOT enter the nipping turn such that the structure is topologically equivalent to an Overhand knot at that point.
   
   Where is this "overhand knot", when, clearly, every crossing-knot-based nipping structure / loop is topologically equivalent to the unknot, I wonder !  :) 
 
 
 
Title: Re: Which knots to know?
Post by: knot4u on June 14, 2013, 01:14:03 AM
Come on, Xarax.  You are experienced to know that knot names are for identification and are often meaningless.
Title: Re: Which knots to know?
Post by: roo on June 14, 2013, 01:44:15 AM
Did you find a memorable/easy way of tying it [the double dragon loop] as an end loop that you can thread through an object?

Yep. I watched this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tj3mXk_FbBk. After doing it once or twice, I found it pretty easy to commit to memory. I learned it yesterday and on waking this morning, I'm confident I can do it from memory without any trouble.
You're doing better than me.  After trying this on and off today from memory and even while watching the video, I'm giving up.  It's just not clicking.  That shift of the standing part at 1:19 tends to throw me, among other issues.  Oh well.
Title: Re: Which knots to know?
Post by: X1 on June 14, 2013, 01:45:19 AM
Come on, Xarax.. knot names are for identification and are often meaningless.
This name is deceiving and misleading, too ! Anyway, I am glad that I have not been eaten alive by this beast !  :)  See a relevant post :
http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4428.0 (http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4428.0)
 
Title: Re: Which knots to know?
Post by: kd8eeh on June 14, 2013, 05:17:47 AM
I hate to be practical here, but in life it will at some point be important that you tie a necktie (most likely) and not very many knots serve that function.  With that in mind i would nominate the half windsor, or perhaps a full windsor.
Also, i would highly recommend learning a constrictor knot.  In a pinch, they make a very strong (if  rather perminent) hitch, and they also are a unique binding knot which is useful for many things.  By tying peoples hands together with a constrictor, i have inspired many to learn the knot, fascinated by the fact that rope can do such a thing.  It is probably not the most practical knot, nor the most useful, but it is among the most fun.
5 knots probably isn't enough to even get by for a lot of things.  You probably need a bend, a loop (those may be the same, like a weaverman's knot (sheet bend tied like bowline) and a bowline), a hitch, a stopper, and an adjustable loop.  A slip knot can make a good noose and also a stopper, but can't maintain tension.  for that you could use a gripping hitch or a trucker's hitch. Keep in mind that depending on what bend you choose, tying your shoes in the morning could become quite an ordeal.  In light of that, i don't think i could live with just 5.
Title: Re: Which knots to know?
Post by: knot4u on June 14, 2013, 06:57:45 AM
I'm going with a clip-on tie. I'm not putting a Windsor in one of my five slots.
Title: Re: Which knots to know?
Post by: X1 on June 14, 2013, 08:54:00 AM
  I don't think I could live with just 5.
You could well, believe me, live, without even ONE knot !  :)  Many ( most ? ) humans had lived, and continue to live, without knowing any knot.
 I agree with the Constrictor ( it can be used, as a base, in the Constrictor safe bowline, as an adjustable "helical loop", as a "lock" for the bowline, and elsewhere (1)(2)(3)) , but the Strangle, as a hitch, is less depended on the specific direction of the pull, and, at the same time, is the "same" knot as the double overhand stopper, so you can have two feet placed into the same shoe... I believe that the game of choosing a small number of knots, say 5, 7, 10 or 12 is interesting, because it makes us try to imagine a different world, with fewer objects, and that is a good thing !  :)  Do this homework, and let us know your selection.
 
1. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3020.msg21692#msg21691 (http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3020.msg21692#msg21691)
2. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3020.msg21692#msg21692 (http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3020.msg21692#msg21692)
3. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=19.msg20905#msg20905 (http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=19.msg20905#msg20905)
 
 
 
Title: Re: Which knots to know?
Post by: Wed on June 14, 2013, 11:01:29 AM
As I hardly ever get to use knots in a readily practical manner, I claim to be an "average Joe".

The following short list is what I have fought hard to make use of:

Slipped reef knot for shoelaces
Timber hitch and half hitch for brooms and rakes in the garage
Turks heads as binders (fairly permanent)
Matthew Walker as stopper

I did use a sheepshank for towing a car once. But I don't consider it proper.
Title: Re: Which knots to know?
Post by: knot4u on June 14, 2013, 03:48:49 PM
I might start a new thread for this...

If the question is ONE knot, then it would probably be a Strangle, ASSUMING that a Strangle
with two lines (e.g., retraced or on bight) is also considered to be a Strangle.  I could then make an end loop, bight loop, adjustable loop, bend, binder, hitch, and stopper. Heck, I might even be able to get a fishing knot out of it.

I may have to cut rope occasionally, which is the compromise for having only one knot.
Title: Re: Which knots to know?
Post by: erizo1 on June 14, 2013, 05:27:51 PM
Did you find a memorable/easy way of tying it [the double dragon loop] as an end loop that you can thread through an object?

Yep. I watched this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tj3mXk_FbBk. After doing it once or twice, I found it pretty easy to commit to memory. I learned it yesterday and on waking this morning, I'm confident I can do it from memory without any trouble.
You're doing better than me.  After trying this on and off today from memory and even while watching the video, I'm giving up.  It's just not clicking.  That shift of the standing part at 1:19 tends to throw me, among other issues.  Oh well.

Roo, I set out to make a quick video of how I tie the double dragon, hopefully making it easier to follow than the other videos I've seen, and then I discovered that what I was tying was a little different from what appears in everything else I've seen. So I made the video with both versions, hopefully along the way making it easy to see how both are tied. It's a method of tying that makes it possible to thread the loop through an object.

I started a new post for it here: http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4430.0
Title: Re: Which knots to know?
Post by: Festy on June 17, 2013, 04:13:03 PM
OK folks, I've picked out 5 knots that should cover most eventualities for me, as follows in no particular order:

1. Round turn with two half hitches.

2. Slipped Buntline.

3. Alpine Butterfly.

4. Standard Bowline.

5. Zeppelin Bend


Mostly for tying down a load, towing a vehicle and in the unlikely event of a rescue situation. I can now tie all the above 5 knots with my eyes closed.

Should I be feeling secure?  :)
Title: Re: Which knots to know?
Post by: roo on June 17, 2013, 04:37:35 PM
OK folks, I've picked out 5 knots that should cover most eventualities for me, as follows in no particular order:

1. Round turn with two half hitches.

2. Slipped Buntline.

3. Alpine Butterfly.

4. Standard Bowline.

5. Zeppelin Bend


Mostly for tying down a load, towing a vehicle and in the unlikely event of a rescue situation. I can now tie all the above 5 knots with my eyes closed.

Should I be feeling secure?  :)
That's a very nice list.  Well done.  :)
Title: Re: Which knots to know?
Post by: X1 on June 17, 2013, 04:40:02 PM
1. Round turn with two half hitches.

2. Slipped Buntline.

3. Alpine Butterfly.

4. Standard Bowline.

5. Zeppelin Bend

   You have 2 one-wrap hitches / nooses in 5 knots...Too much ! I would have replaced the one with a binder ( the Gleipnir), or a tight hitch ( the Strangle).
   Also, you have 2 loops, one end-of-line and one mid-line... You can merge the two to one, that is even more secure than the bowline, and can also be tied in the bight ( be TIB) .
   The Buntline is OK, but it is not so unique and indispensable, as many knot tyers believe... See a similar one, at the attached picture.
 
Title: Re: Which knots to know?
Post by: TMCD on June 18, 2013, 02:26:38 AM
I'm a very serious fisherman so I simply can not limit myself to a list of five knots. I'll give five nautical/outdoors favorites and then several fishing favorites.

1) Round turn and two half hitches

2) Double Bowline

3) Trucker's Hitch (This includes learning a midline loop for the knot system)

4) Constrictor

5) Zeppelin Bend

Fishing Knots I favor

1)Snell-main line to hook

2)Uni to Uni-For joining two lines together

3)Surgeon's Loop

4)Palomar-for attaching certain lures where the Snell knot isn't acceptable.

I love this type of thread because these favorites of everyone are so frigging debatable. In the fishing section in particular, big game fisherman would opt for the Spider Hitch or Bimini Twist instead of a Surgeon's Loop. They would possibly choose the Yucatan or Jimmy Albright Special when joining lines...fishing knots are VERY interesting to study as I've recently found.

In the camping and outdoors world of knotting you can debate knots just as well. I like the Trucker's Hitch being on the list because it's so practical for the average person who will need to know how to secure items from time to time in the back of their truck or car. This list should be made up of knots that scream practicality, not knots that scream KNOT MASTER. The Double Dragon borders on the knot master type of knot IMO, I've only tied it a handful of times and can't remember how to even tie it as I type. I think a Poacher's Knot would be a good one to put on a little bit bigger list.
Title: Re: Which knots to know?
Post by: erizo1 on June 18, 2013, 02:36:16 AM
OK folks, I've picked out 5 knots that should cover most eventualities for me, as follows in no particular order:

1. Round turn with two half hitches.
2. Slipped Buntline.
3. Alpine Butterfly.
4. Standard Bowline.
5. Zeppelin Bend


Mostly for tying down a load, towing a vehicle and in the unlikely event of a rescue situation. I can now tie all the above 5 knots with my eyes closed.

Should I be feeling secure?  :)

That's certainly a great list of knots to know. With those applications in mind, if it were me, I'd do the following:


So here's my suggested list. Of course, if you have those five down so you can tie them with your eyes closed, you're more than ready to expand your list:

1.  Round turn and two half-hitches

2.  Alpine butterfly

3.  Zeppelin loop / bend using the same tying method (cheating?)

4.  Blake's hitch

5.  Reef knot
Title: Re: Which knots to know?
Post by: erizo1 on June 18, 2013, 02:44:40 AM
The Buntline is OK, but it is not so unique and indispensable, as many knot tyers believe... See a similar one, at the attached picture.

X1, that looks like a great knot, at least tying it for the first time. Seems like it would have a great grip. What's your experience with it? Does it jam? Can it be slipped? Does it need to be? How is it's hold compared to the buntline?
Title: Re: Which knots to know?
Post by: knot4u on June 18, 2013, 03:59:15 AM
TMCD,

Thank you for your list. My 5 knots are not necessarily my favorites. They are compromises for having only five.

Also, the conversation is entirely different if we get to add even just one more knot. Your 8+ knots are for a different thread because the conversation is completely different than the 5-knot conversation. To cover your fishing needs, you could have listed a Uni knot as one of the five...maybe not ideal, but doable.

Also, if you force yourself to make 5 only, you may discover (as I did) that the Double Dragon is perhaps the most practical on the list. By the way, tying the Double Dragon is EASY compared to the Uni. You just haven't practiced the DD in order to make that statement.
Title: Re: Which knots to know?
Post by: X1 on June 18, 2013, 05:23:17 AM
if you learn to tie a zeppelin loop, you can use the exact same method to tie the zeppelin bend.
   If somebody does not know how to tie the Zeppelin bend, you suggest to learn the fake so called "Zepelin loop" so he "can use the exact same method to tie the Zeppelin bend" ?  :) :) :)  Thank you, erizo, that was a funny thing about this lamentable ugly tangly that I would nt expect one could have thought of !
Title: Re: Which knots to know?
Post by: X1 on June 18, 2013, 05:42:08 AM
Does it jam? Can it be slipped? Does it need to be? How is it's hold compared to the buntline?
   No, it does not jam more than the original Buntline. Personally, I would nt use a slipped Buntline, if the grip the un-slipped Buntline is able to offer would seem inadequate... I would rather prefer to add one or more round turns, or tie a proper slide-and-grip lockable hitch. For the same reason, I would nt tie a slipped "Buntline extinguisher", as I whimsically call it for the time being. I believe it offers a better grip than the original Buntline, indeed, and - what is very important too - a more controlled grip : one can increase a little bit the amount of force by which he pulls the returning line, so the hitch will hold a little bit more. It may happen that you use a rope for the same time, and you do not know how slippery it is in advance, and if a hitch tied with it would hold or not - it is important to be able to gradually increase the amount of force you use to make it hold, as much as you want it to hold.   
Title: Re: Which knots to know?
Post by: X1 on June 18, 2013, 05:50:19 AM
the Blake's hitch as a binding knot (tie it to the other end of the same rope and cinch it around an object). Again, two for one.

!   :)  I have never thought this use of a climbing friction hitch ! That is the good thing with this game, it makes you think how to get " two for one". 
Title: Re: Which knots to know?
Post by: erizo1 on June 18, 2013, 12:39:50 PM
[/b]I was torn between the Reef and the Gleipnir.  It was a compromise.  The mid-air capability of the Gleipnir is quite valuable, but I can use the Blake Hitch listed below as a mid-air binder.

the Blake's hitch as a binding knot (tie it to the other end of the same rope and cinch it around an object). Again, two for one.

!   :)  I have never thought this use of a climbing friction hitch ! That is the good thing with this game, it makes you think how to get " two for one". 

I should give credit for this to knot4u. He mentioned this much earlier in this thread when he gave his list of five, and that was actually the reason for my learning Blake's hitch in the first place. I agree, a terrific use of a climbing friction knot. I've tied it this way in several different kinds of rope, and once you dress it tight, it's not going anywhere.
Title: Re: Which knots to know?
Post by: erizo1 on June 18, 2013, 12:55:16 PM

if you learn to tie a zeppelin loop, you can use the exact same method to tie the zeppelin bend.

   If somebody does not know how to tie the Zeppelin bend, you suggest to learn the fake so called "Zepelin loop" so he "can use the exact same method to tie the Zeppelin bend" ?  :) :) :)  Thank you, erizo, that was a funny thing about this lamentable ugly tangly that I would nt expect one could have thought of !

It's interesting, the first way I learned to tie the zeppelin bend was the overhand knot followed by working the end of the other line through it (the way the loop is tied), which if you're just learning the bend is unnecessarily complicated compared to the "b and q" method. But having learned it that way, when I wanted to learn to tie the loop, there was nothing new to learn, aside from using the working end of the same line to finish the knot instead of another line.

For my purely practical purposes, the zeppelin loop's fakeness, lamentableness, and ugliness don't really enter into it. It's a very secure loop that can be tied by a method that's also used for a very secure bend, which to me makes it worth learning. Liabilities like not being post-eye-tieable are less important to me than security, although of course other people's calculus when choosing just one or two loops may be different.
Title: Re: Which knots to know?
Post by: X1 on June 18, 2013, 02:17:39 PM
the zeppelin loop's fake-ness,
...regarding the Zeppelin bend. If you learn how the Zeppelin bend works, you will understand that the "fake-ness" of the so-called "Zeppelin loop" - and you will find hard to justify utilizing the Zeppelin bend as a base for your loop, and not any other bend, which is not a rope-made hitch, as the Zeppelin bend is - i.e, any bend of the dozens of dozens bends we have, where the standing parts form first curves which are "hooked" around each other. You can start by trying the dozens of Hunter s bend and falsely-tied Hunter s bend based loops, for example  !  :)  If you find ANY difference in security, between the fake so-called "Zeppelin loop" and all those bends, I swear I will be tying the ugly tugly for the rest of my life !  So, the "security" of a loop based on a bend can not be a reason for choosing this particular bend and not any other... The Zeppelin bend, as a mechanism, has something different from most of the bends we know, and when you throw this  away, you throw away its best part - and you keep the insignificant remaining "commodity", the interlinked nature of the two overhand knots, which you can find in so many other bends.
the zeppelin loop's ...lamentableness
  If the Zeppelin bend is able to make you happy, the fake, so called "Zeppelin loop" will make you cry, believe me...Yes, a Ferrari has four wheels, as any other car  if you are interested only to use it as four-wheeled trolley, your Ferrari has become lamentable...Using the Zeppelin bend ( and not any other bend ) for its two interlinked overhand knots, you do exactly the same thing... :)
the zeppelin loop's... ugliness
   Oh, that belongs to the eye of the beholder !  :)  I believe that nature offered us a great gift, with the beauty of the Zeppelin bend - if one can not appreciate that, the difference between any beauty and any beast disappears, indeed. Perhaps the world would have been a more fair place if there were not an beautiful things around ?
Liabilities like not being post-eye-tieable are less important to me than security
   I have tried to tell you that the ability tie be able to tie and/ot untie an end-of-line eyeknot in one stage ( without any pre-knot that has to be tied and then has to be untied again on the standing part, i.e. without a "relic" overhand knot remaining tied on the standing part after the main loop has been opened up and the line had been freed to move ) enhances security, in the broadest sense of the word. Evidently, I have failed -  but that would not be my first time !  :)  We,knot tyers, we are conservative, and, I would dare to say, frightened people, by the apparently vast complexity of the KnotLand s landscape, that our brains can not conceive, just because human brain did not evolve to grasp complex curvilinear 1D lines in a 3D space...We can not easily learn new knots, or even new things about the knots we already know !  When you will learn the Zeppelin bend, as a rope-made hinge mechanism, and the big, HUGE difference in convenience but also in security, in a broad sense, between the post-eye-tiable eyeknots and all the rest, I will come back !   :)  Till then, there are plenty of "easy" web sites, advertising your beloved ugly tugly. It has almost become a fashion, because, if you follow the fashion, whatever fashion, you are not supposed to explain why you wear this instead of that. A loop based on the Zeppelin bend, you said ? Ouaou ! It should be a great loop, let me wear this around my neck, like just another happy proud fashion victim. 
 
Title: Re: Which knots to know?
Post by: X1 on June 18, 2013, 03:45:53 PM
a terrific use of a climbing friction knot.
  Perhaps you or knot4u should start a new thread, about hitches around poles based on climbing friction hitches, like the one you mention.
  The drawback I see is this : the climbing friction hitches are not meant to distort the straightness of the main line in any significant way. On the other hand, many "ordinary" hitches induce a local deformation of the main line, a shallower or deeper curve (  pull the returning line of the "Buntline extinguisher" we were talking about, to see this effect ), or even entangle it within the initially sliding part of the hitch ( as it happens in the arthroscopic slide-and-grip lockable hitches ). This Is a great advantage, because, on a local "bump" of the main line, acting as obstacle, the whole sliding part and the returning leg of the main line can be attached "easier", with greater security.
Title: Re: Which knots to know?
Post by: Festy on June 18, 2013, 07:11:56 PM
you have 2 loops, one end-of-line and one mid-line... You can merge the two to one, that is even more secure than the bowline, and can also be tied in the bight ( be TIB) .
   The Buntline is OK, but it is not so unique and indispensable, as many knot tyers believe... See a similar one, at the attached picture.

What is the knot you refer to that is even more secure than the bowline?

I have tied the buntline replacement as per your pic and it's a grand knot but I don't know if it would be easy to remember how to tie (for me).
Title: Re: Which knots to know?
Post by: Festy on June 18, 2013, 07:19:12 PM


  • Drop the slipped buntline. It does the same job as the round turn and two half-hitches, and it's more secure, but the latter is more versatile. If you want extra security, you can tie a secure loop around the object.
  • Drop the Bowline. What you're talking about is applications involving heavy loads and possibly the need for maximum security, so I would choose a loop that will do these jobs well, even if it's overkill for other things.
  • Learn the zeppelin loop, for two reasons. First, it's a maximum security loop, much better than the bowline, especially for a rescue situation, and is fine for just about any other use. Second, if you learn to tie a zeppelin loop, you can use the exact same method to tie the zeppelin bend. You don't have to learn any new movements, just be working with a second line rather than the looped working end of the same line. Two for one; not sure if this is cheating, but you're the one making the rules, so count it however you want :-)
  • You don't have a knot on there that will help you get really good tension in a rope you're using to tie something down. Add either a trucker's hitch or the kind of hitch that can be tied back onto the same line to create an adjustable loop (Blake's is my preference, also adjustable grip, tautline).
  • You need a binding knot IMO. I think the need to tie things in a bundle or cinch down a line running over a pile of stuff is common enough to warrant a knot in your list of five. I think a reef or Gleipnir would be best for a variety of situations, but you could economize by using the tension knot you pick above (e.g., Blake's hitch) as a binding knot (tie it to the other end of the same rope and cinch it around an object). Again, two for one.

So here's my suggested list. Of course, if you have those five down so you can tie them with your eyes closed, you're more than ready to expand your list:

1.  Round turn and two half-hitches

2.  Alpine butterfly

3.  Zeppelin loop / bend using the same tying method (cheating?)

4.  Blake's hitch

5.  Reef knot


Would the Zeppelin Loop be a good knot for towing a vehicle?

With reference to the trucker's hitch, I would incorporate 3 of the 5 knots into tying down a load - slipped buntline for the anchor, alpine butterfly for the mid line loop and finish off with the RT & 2 HH's.

Is the reef knot a neccessary knot to include?
Title: Re: Which knots to know?
Post by: roo on June 18, 2013, 07:33:19 PM
I have tied the buntline replacement as per your pic and it's a grand knot but I don't know if it would be easy to remember how to tie (for me).
As people have probably figured out by now, Mr. X's buntline replacement tends to jam, and doesn't lend itself to slipped release as readily and freely as the Slipped Buntline family (http://notableknotindex.webs.com/slippedbuntline.html).

If you're looking for a non-slipped hitch for tie-downs, just about any common hitch will do as high security isn't much of a concern with constant tension use.  A simple Timber Hitch (http://notableknotindex.webs.com/timberhitch.html) would do.  A Gnat Hitch (http://notableknotindex.webs.com/gnathitch.html) is simple, jam-resistant, highly secure and isn't affected by unusual hitch object shapes.
Title: Re: Which knots to know?
Post by: Festy on June 18, 2013, 07:44:06 PM
I have tied the buntline replacement as per your pic and it's a grand knot but I don't know if it would be easy to remember how to tie (for me).
As people have probably figured out by now, Mr. X's buntline replacement tends to jam, and doesn't lend itself to slipped release as readily and freely as the Slipped Buntline family (http://notableknotindex.webs.com/slippedbuntline.html).

If you're looking for a non-slipped hitch for tie-downs, just about any common hitch will do as high security isn't much of a concern with constant tension use.  A simple Timber Hitch (http://notableknotindex.webs.com/timberhitch.html) would do.  A Gnat Hitch (http://notableknotindex.webs.com/gnathitch.html) is simple, jam-resistant, highly secure and isn't affected by unusual hitch object shapes.

The Gnat hitch is an ideal knot for me, it's so easy to tie. Does it need to be slipped like the Buntline for ease of untying?
Title: Re: Which knots to know?
Post by: roo on June 18, 2013, 07:46:34 PM
Would the Zeppelin Loop be a good knot for towing a vehicle?
[...]
Is the reef knot a neccessary knot to include?
I don't know how often the reef knot will come up for you, but I get the feeling that you know it already.   ;)

A Zeppelin Loop could be used as a vehicle recovery loop as it doesn't jam, is a pleasure to adjust component lengths, and can easily be verified for correctness by a quick glance.  That's not to say that other terminal connection loop or hitches couldn't be used, as there are a number of suitable jam-resistant options.
Title: Re: Which knots to know?
Post by: roo on June 18, 2013, 07:48:02 PM
The Gnat hitch is an ideal knot for me, it's so easy to tie. Does it need to be slipped like the Buntline for ease of untying?
No slip required for the Gnat Hitch.
Title: Re: Which knots to know?
Post by: Festy on June 18, 2013, 07:57:08 PM
Would the Zeppelin Loop be a good knot for towing a vehicle?
[...]
Is the reef knot a neccessary knot to include?
I don't know how often the reef knot will come up for you, but I get the feeling that you know it already.   ;)

A Zeppelin Loop could be used as a vehicle recovery loop as it doesn't jam, is a pleasure to adjust component lengths, and can easily be verified for correctness by a quick glance.  That's not to say that other terminal connection loop or hitches couldn't be used, as there are a number of suitable jam-resistant options.

Yes, I know the reef knot.

I like the Zeppelin - both bend and loop, - but some posters seem to have reservations about the loop version. I don't have the required knowledge to debate it's merits or otherwise.
Title: Re: Which knots to know?
Post by: Festy on June 18, 2013, 07:58:04 PM
The Gnat hitch is an ideal knot for me, it's so easy to tie. Does it need to be slipped like the Buntline for ease of untying?
No slip required for the Gnat Hitch.

excellent, thanks.
Title: Re: Which knots to know?
Post by: roo on June 18, 2013, 08:01:49 PM
I like the Zeppelin - both bend and loop, - but some posters seem to have reservations about the loop version. I don't have the required knowledge to debate it's merits or otherwise.
I think the bottom line is that if you find both forms easy to tie, as I do, go ahead and use them.  Those who have a difficulty with tying it are free to choose alternate loops (http://notableknotindex.webs.com/waterbowline.html) that better suit their abilities or preferences.
Title: Re: Which knots to know?
Post by: X1 on June 18, 2013, 08:02:06 PM
   I have tied the buntline replacement as per your pic and it's a grand knot but I don't know if it would be easy to remember how to tie (for me).
   My advice : do not try to memorize a sequence of moves ! Try to understand how the knots works, why it is able to work like this (  the particular way friction is utilized, to secure the tail so it will not slip out of the knot s nub), and, at the end, what would be a possible alternative that would use a similar structure even more efficiently. Tie the "8" shaped sliding part without the main line into it a number of times. Then, when you will be tying the hitch around the main line, try to see how each move "weaves" the knot around the main line, so that the standing end and the tail will end in a position where the are encircled by the "higher" and the "lower" bights of the fig.88, AND squeezed upon each other by the overlying diagonal element, adjacent and parallel to each other - i.e, in the favourable position that maximizes the friction forces between them. It is not much different from the Constrictor - in fact, it was suggested that it is a nothing but a Constrictor-around-the-main-line based hitch.
What is the knot you refer to that is even more secure than the bowline?
   I am referring to knots that are post-eye-tiable (PET)( "bowline-like", as I use to say ), AND tiable-in-the-bight (TIB). The cadidates we have till now are the Double Dragon and the pet loop, suggested by knot4u and me, respectably.
 
 
Title: Re: Which knots to know?
Post by: Festy on June 18, 2013, 08:18:02 PM
   I have tied the buntline replacement as per your pic and it's a grand knot but I don't know if it would be easy to remember how to tie (for me).
   My advice : do not try to memorize a sequence of moves ! Try to understand how the knots works, why it is able to work like this (  the particular way friction is utilized, to secure the tail so it will not slip out of the knot s nub), and, at the end, what would be a possible alternative that would use a similar structure even more efficiently. Tie the fi.8 shaped sliding part without the main line into it a number of times. Then, when you will be tying the hitch around the main line, try to see how each move "weaves" the knot around the main line, so that the standing end and the tail will end in a position where the are encircled by the "higher" and the "lower" bights of the fig.88, AND squeezed upon each other by the overlying diagonal element, adjacent and parallel to each other - i.e, in the favourable position that maximizes the friction forces between them. It is not much different from the Constrictor - in fact, it was suggested that it is a nothing but a Constrictor-around-the-main-line based hitch.
What is the knot you refer to that is even more secure than the bowline?
   I am referring to knots that are post-eye-tiable (PET)( "bowline-like", as I use to say ), AND tiable-in-the-bight (TIB). The cadidates we have till now are the Double Dragon and the pet loop, suggested by knot4u and me, respectably.

I'll certainly try to memorize all 3, thanks.
Title: Re: Which knots to know?
Post by: X1 on June 18, 2013, 08:25:49 PM
The Gnat hitch is an ideal knot for me, it's so easy to tie.
  Ideal ?  :) :) :)  It is not worse, as a knot, than the so-called "Sailor s hitch", that is for sure - but that was not so difficult to happen !  :) 
  If you like a yet simpler and easier to tie hitch, look at the attached picture.
Title: Re: Which knots to know?
Post by: X1 on June 18, 2013, 08:34:15 PM
As people have probably figured out by now, Mr. X's buntline replacement tends to jam, and doesn't lend itself to slipped release as readily and freely as the Slipped Buntline family (http://notableknotindex.webs.com/slippedbuntline.html).
If you're looking for a non-slipped hitch for tie-downs,...
   [The "Buntline extinguisher"] does not jam more than the Buntline - I have tested it many times on many materials, and, as far as my experience allows, I know. I have never compared it with the Slipped Buntline, which is a more complex knot, because I always compare apples to apples.

   [The "Buntline extinguisher" does not jam more than the original Buntline. Personally, I would nt use a slipped Buntline, if the grip the un-slipped Buntline is able to offer would seem inadequate... I would rather prefer to add one or more round turns, or tie a proper slide-and-grip lockable hitch. For the same reason, I would nt tie a slipped "Buntline extinguisher", as I whimsically call it for the time being. I believe it offers a better grip than the original Buntline, indeed, and - what is very important too - a more controlled grip : one can increase a little bit the amount of force by which he pulls the returning line, so the hitch will hold a little bit more. It may happen that you use a rope for the same time, and you do not know how slippery it is in advance, and if a hitch tied with it would hold or not - it is important to be able to gradually increase the amount of force you use to make it hold, as much as you want it to hold.
Title: Re: Which knots to know?
Post by: roo on June 18, 2013, 08:37:24 PM
  If you like a yet simpler and easier to tie hitch, look at the attached picture.
It jams.  Did you test this before posting?
Title: Re: Which knots to know?
Post by: roo on June 18, 2013, 08:42:37 PM
As people have probably figured out by now, Mr. X's buntline replacement tends to jam, and doesn't lend itself to slipped release as readily and freely as the Slipped Buntline Family.
   When one mister has written 2000+ posts and 170+ threads, and one other mister has not found even a single f...ONE good thing to say about ANY of them, what shouls we make out of it ?  :)  That one mister has a prooblem... :)
I thought you wanted me to evaluate your creations.  I've offered positive feedback to other knot inventions/discoveries by other people(*).  I'm sure if you keep trying and improve your testing criteria, you'll do better. 

Discovering good knots isn't easy by any means.

*
http://notableknotindex.webs.com/slippery8.html
http://notableknotindex.webs.com/tumblehitch.html
Title: Re: Which knots to know?
Post by: X1 on June 18, 2013, 08:49:45 PM
  If you like a yet simpler and easier to tie hitch, look at the attached picture.
It jams.  Did you test this before posting?
  It is the simplest "tight" hitch.
  http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4155.msg25243#msg25243;' (http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4155.msg25243#msg25243;')
 
Title: Re: Which knots to know?
Post by: roo on June 18, 2013, 09:05:48 PM
I thought you wanted me to evaluate your creations. 
No, I do not ! Honest !  :)  What made you think that I do ?
You were complaining loudly about my alleged silence in response to your flood of knot submittals here:
http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4090.msg27736#msg27736

(well, at least before you [or a moderator, perhaps] deleted your posts, yet again)
Title: Re: Which knots to know?
Post by: TMCD on June 18, 2013, 11:59:17 PM
ABOK 1852 could easily be placed on this list too, AKA the Backhand Hitch. It's got a lot of positives that could easily place it onto this list but it's simply an unknown knot outside of our knot community. It won't jamb and holds my 20-25lb river anchors beautifully when using 5/8inch nylon rope....great anchor hitch because it unties so easily yet is secure.

An argument could also be made that this list desperately needs to be expanded beyond just five simple knots because afterall, there's a GREAT chance a person may need to know a sixth knot for some special occasion. I would create a list of ten knots every outdoorsman/outsdoorswoman should know AND at least two fishing knots would have to be on the list if they were dropped off in a remote area to survive for any length of time. What good is a Constrictor, Bowline, Zeppelin Bend, and Butterfly Loop when it comes time to go fishing and feed your body?? You'll starve with those knots, now throw in some fishing knots which only work with fine lines and you'll eat every night.
Title: Re: Which knots to know?
Post by: knot4u on June 19, 2013, 12:38:38 AM
This thread proves this question is not fit for experienced knot tyers.  We find it difficult to construct a 5-knot list.  In my list, I need a stopper.  I would also like at least one knot that is specific to fishing.  I also want to add the Windsor because I own about 50 neckties and zero clip-on ties.  So, my total grows to 8 at a bare minimum.  Five is below the bare minimum.

However, I could live with only 5 knots.  Believe it or not, many people are functioning just fine in life by knowing only the Overhand (also known simply as "a knot" by novices) and the Granny knot to tie shoes.  If a novice were to intimately understand merely 5 knots from a list here, then the novice's life would be great improved.  In other words, moving from a list of 2 knots (Overhand and Granny) to a list of 5 well-contemplated knots is a tremendous improvement.

To realize instant improvement in life right now, I recommend that the novice starts by understanding the Trucker Hitch and variations thereof.
Title: Re: Which knots to know?
Post by: X1 on June 19, 2013, 12:41:28 AM
ABOK 1852 could easily be placed on this list too, AKA the Backhand Hitch.
   TMCD, since you have mentioned the forgotten Backhanded hitch, could you, please, try the two hitches shown at the attached picture ? I had tied them as doubled/mirrored Blackwall hitches, and I think that they might be preferable from the Backhanded, but I have not much experience in such knots, so I can not tell. ( One could also try a combination, where the two legs pass in between the ring/tip of the bight and the "bridge" connecting the two sides, as in the Backhanded hitch shown at the third picture.)
 
Title: Re: Which knots to know?
Post by: TMCD on June 19, 2013, 02:40:52 AM
I'm not sure X, to me, the simplicity of the Backhanded Hitch and my familiarity with it probably bias my opinion towards ABOK 1852. I'm not sure those two knots would be secure around the ring of my anchors....I'll fiddle around with them and try to report back. I'm VERY busy right now as it's early summer and I'm a Paint Contractor by trade, phone's been ringing off the proverbial hook.

Knot4U, I went on a necktie knot learning binge about a year ago and learned at least six or seven variations of necktie knots. The Full Windsor gives the most symmetrical appearance and the Half Windsor is REALLY close in that regard as well. There's the Nicky Knot which is decent and several others I can't remember right off the top of my head that are also good choices...I DON'T like necktie knots that are not symmetrical.
Title: Re: Which knots to know?
Post by: knot4u on June 19, 2013, 04:13:57 AM
Knot4U, I went on a necktie knot learning binge about a year ago and learned at least six or seven variations of necktie knots.

Me too... I fiddled with about 20 from a website, but in real life, I'm tying either the Full Windsor or another small knot of which I forgot the name. Tying a necktie is an important man skill.
Title: Re: Which knots to know?
Post by: Festy on June 20, 2013, 02:19:51 PM
Guys,

Yesterday I had occasion to tie down a load of furniture for a 20 minute journey.
I used the Gnat for the anchor and 2 Span Loops to set up a Versatackle.
I actually needed to be careful not to overtighten as I felt I could have caused damage.
I tied off with a RT&2HH's although it probably wasn't necessary.
I left the load tied down overnight and this morning everything was still as tight as a drum and there wasn't the slightest trouble untying any of the knots.

Kudos to the Forum!  ;)
Title: Re: Which knots to know?
Post by: X1 on June 20, 2013, 03:20:42 PM
I tied off with a RT&2HH's although it probably wasn't necessary.
  It was not - and, to my view, the Span loops were not really needed, because the simple slip overhand knots would have been just fine...but I will not return to the issue debated at the longest thread ever of this Forum !  :)
  The problem in practical knotting is not how to keep everything tightly tied together ! The problem is how to do this, in the most easy to remember, to tie, to inspect and to untie, efficient, clever, and economical regarding the consumption of the material way...
Title: Re: Which knots to know?
Post by: knot4u on June 20, 2013, 04:07:38 PM
Guys,

Yesterday I had occasion to tie down a load of furniture for a 20 minute journey.
I used the Gnat for the anchor and 2 Span Loops to set up a Versatackle.
I actually needed to be careful not to overtighten as I felt I could have caused damage.
I tied off with a RT&2HH's although it probably wasn't necessary.
I left the load tied down overnight and this morning everything was still as tight as a drum and there wasn't the slightest trouble untying any of the knots.

Kudos to the Forum!  ;)

AWESOME!!! That made my day.
Title: Re: Which knots to know?
Post by: X1 on June 20, 2013, 05:45:12 PM
That made my day.

...but destroyed the game of the thread. Festy has not used the knots of his own 5-slot selection...

- supposing that some higher power decreed that you would only be allowed to use 5 knots for the remainder of your life, which 5 would cover all contingencies, or if indeed 5 would be enough?
 
   He had just utilized the knots it has happened to him to learn recently, and he runs the danger to believe that they are the "best" knots, or the only knots he has to learn...The ability to choose the most essential elements, and ignore the secondary ones, should only come at the very end of the necessarily steep learning curve, not right at the start ! If one becomes a "knot user" too early, he will probably never become a real knot tyer. Learn everything you can learn from the complex real first, then, and the only then, proceed to the simple abstract. That is the only way one can understand things, and not pass his life parooting others.
Title: Re: Which knots to know?
Post by: roo on June 20, 2013, 07:21:29 PM
. Festy has not used the knots of his own 5-slot selection...
Maybe Festy changed his personal list but didn't explicitly say so here. 

I could also see a Versatackle being considered a mere implementation of his Span Loops, rather than a basic knot to be included in his list.
Title: Re: Which knots to know?
Post by: X1 on June 20, 2013, 08:01:45 PM
I could also see a Versatackle being considered a mere implementation of his Span Loops, rather than a basic knot to be included in his list.
  The Versatackle, is, like the Trucker hitch, an "expanded", compound knot, a "non local" rope mechanism which is nothing but the implementation of the block and tackle simple machine in the field of knotting. Therefore, I agree that it is not a "knot" like the others, that should be considered if it will be included or omitted in a knot list. However, this is a matter of the definition of what a "knot" is, in general, a much more complex thing than any particular knot !  :)
   On the other hand, what the Versatackle or the Trucker s hitch is certainly not, is "a mere implementation of the Span Loops" ! The Span loop is just one of the dozens of the possible TIB loops that can well be utilized in a Versatackle or a Trucker s hitch - and I am not going to discuss which is the "best" loop for those particular rope-made simple machines here... If the Versatackle could be considered such a "mere implementation" of an X TIB loop, it should also be considered as a "mere implementation" of a Y TIB loop, or a W TIB loop, the slip overhand knot, the Butterfly loop, the Double Dragon loop, etc. - i.e. of every possible TIB single or even double midline loop there is - the most multitudinous family of knots we know  !  :)  When one thing is a mere implementation of many things, one should wonder if what is really happening is the exact opposite !
   What is really the case is that the Versatackle or the Trucker s hitch are "expanded" knot mechanisms, that utilize midline loops - but the eyeknots of the midline loops themselves are three-ends ordinary knots, just as the end-to-end two-end knots ( bends).
   Therefore, if you have chosen the Alpine Butterfly as your mid-line loop ( a fine choice ! ), you should stick to it, anf utilize this midline loop in your Versatackle or Trucker s hitch ! Sorry Festy, no Span loop allowed, I am afraid !  :)
Title: Re: Which knots to know?
Post by: Festy on June 20, 2013, 09:37:18 PM
Guys,

I should have said the Butterfly and not the Span.

A brain fart typo stemming from an hour of practising the Span I guess.

However, I did use the Gnat instead of the S/Buntline.

My revised list of 5 is:

1. Round turn with two half hitches.

2. Gnat Hitch.

3. Alpine Butterfly.

4. Standard Bowline.

5. Zeppelin Bend


- I'm also starting to lean towards the Double Dragon Loop instead of the Bowline.
Title: Re: Which knots to know?
Post by: X1 on June 20, 2013, 09:55:36 PM
   I'm also starting to lean towards the Double Dragon Loop instead of the Bowline.
  The Double Dragon is a fine, versatile knot - although the fact that has to be "doubled", may be considered as an indication of a weakness (?). 
  However, if you do include the Double Dragon, why do you have to keep the Alpine Butterfly, which, is as a mid-line loop, does the same job just as the Double Dragon ?
   Also the "Round turn and two Half Hitches" is a much more versatile knot than any particular hitch, perhaps even than the Buntline and the "Buntline extinguisher" - and certainly a much better and much more versatile knot than the "just not-bad" Gnat hitch. Two hitches, which do almost the same job, in 5, only, slots ? Too many !
   Keep playing !  :)
   
   
Title: Re: Which knots to know?
Post by: Festy on June 20, 2013, 10:20:55 PM
   I'm also starting to lean towards the Double Dragon Loop instead of the Bowline.
  The Double Dragon is a fine, versatile knot - although the fact that has to be "doubled", may be considered as an indication of a weakness (?). 
  However, if you do include the Double Dragon, why do you have to keep the Alpine Butterfly, which, is as a mid-line loop, does the same job just as the Double Dragon ?
   Also the "Round turn and two Half Hitches" is a much more versatile knot than any particular hitch, perhaps even than the Buntline and the "Buntline extinguisher" - and certainly a much better and much more versatile knot than the "just not-bad" Gnat hitch. Two hitches, which do almost the same job, in 5, only, slots ? Too many !
   Keep playing !  :)
   
 

I will definitely keep the Alpine Butterfly, I really like it.

Would the RT&2HH's be suitable in this case - "the Gnat Hitch is largely unaffected by the cross-sectional shape of the hitching object"?
Title: Re: Which knots to know?
Post by: X1 on June 20, 2013, 10:45:02 PM
[Is] the RT&2HH's... largely unaffected by the cross-sectional shape of the hitching object"?
  Of course it is...but why do you ask ? Tie and try !  :)
 For some more complex hitches, see :
 http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1411.0;attach=502 (http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1411.0;attach=502)
 
Title: Re: Which knots to know?
Post by: roo on June 21, 2013, 01:32:40 AM
Would the RT&2HH's be suitable in this case - "the Gnat Hitch is largely unaffected by the cross-sectional shape of the hitching object"?
While the cross section of the hitching object isn't likely to be a problem, the issue with two half hitches is general security.  As the rope gets stiffer, those half hitches tend to spring open and untie.  Once the outer layer is gone, the hitch is toast.
Title: Re: Which knots to know?
Post by: roo on June 21, 2013, 01:42:56 AM
- I'm also starting to lean towards the Double Dragon Loop instead of the Bowline.
I think someday when you're threading the rope through an object, you'll end up with an error with an attempted Double Dragon Loop.  And since there are so many knot forms that look like it, you probably won't catch that error.

If you don't like a simple Bowline for lack of security, then a Water Bowline (http://notableknotindex.webs.com/waterbowline.html) or a Zeppelin Loop (http://notableknotindex.webs.com/zeppelinloop.html) would both be easier to tie and check than a Double Dragon Loop, and both will have better security in stiff or slick rope than a Double Dragon as an added benefit.

Title: Re: Which knots to know?
Post by: Dan_Lehman on June 21, 2013, 07:13:29 AM
However, this is a matter of the definition of what a "knot" is,
in general, a much more complex thing than any particular knot !  :)

Indeed, such topics as this tend to lack a strict
definition of what *knot* is, and in turn what
the goal of the contest is.  E.g., no one here has
recommended the clove & marlinespike hitches
and yet there are nooses --which I would count
as compound knotted structures vs "knots"--
that use them as their *knotted* parts (and
are here under the guise of being hitches).

One can sometimes see such short lists used as
a kind of *seeding* of knotting notions, from
which one can grow a considerable set of *knots*.

But among some sets, here, I don't see how to
accomplish some everyday things such as tying
shoes.  I know how to tie the butterfly by a
couple of ways (much liking Alpineer's intial one!),
but I know that I seldom do so --it's simply not
a much needed knot.


--dl*
====
Title: Re: Which knots to know?
Post by: knot4u on June 21, 2013, 12:06:47 PM
Festy, you do have quite a bit of overlap in your list of 5. I recommend you not even try to make a list of 5. Instead, just experiment with a whole bunch of different knots at this point. Don't restrict yourself to your personal applications either. Try to imagine every scenario in which you might ever need a knot. Practice those scenarios too. That process will inevitably lead into experimenting with fishing knots, climbing knots, rappelling knots, etc. You'll obtain a broader understanding and will have a better appreciation of what people are trying to summarize for you in this thread.
Title: Re: Which knots to know?
Post by: X1 on June 21, 2013, 01:05:24 PM
I don't see how to accomplish some everyday things such as tying shoes.
Try to imagine every scenario in which you might ever need a knot.
   Any limited set of knots can not address every possible knotting problem, by definition - because, even if there was such a set, we could always imagine yet another particular complication of the situation, yet another requirement from the application, that would inevitably lead to another knot.
   Now, should we compile a set of knots according to the most "usual uses" of the knots in "everyday things" ?  I do not think so. In fact, that would be too easy, just make a list of all the knots you use, count the numbers you use each knot, and delete all parts of the so sorted list after 5. The number of times we use some knots does not make the particular applications of those knots more important than the others, for which we use other knots. Tying shoes is not an important thing - I have not tied my shoes for decades now, just because I do not use shoes with shoelaces. Moreover, millions of people had lived without shoes and shoelaces - and perhaps less than people that lived without a knot to tie a necklace around their wife s neck ! On the contrary, I can imagine a situation where the rare knot I would have been forced to use once, and only once, in my life, would be the most important thing of what I would have ever done  !  :)
    http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4418.msg27862#msg27862 (http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4418.msg27862#msg27862)
   Therefore, I think that the different knots that we should include in pour list should be different kinds of knots, that belong to different "knot categories", i.e. different knots in relation to the knots themselves, their own functional and structural characteristics, and not different in relation to different practical applications by different knot tyers - even if these application should be addressed more or less often than others in every day life. I do not use a bend very often, but I would nt imagine any set of knots that will not include one, at least, bend.
  The specific purposes for which we need knots can not classify the knots themselves in different "categories". In fact, what we do is the exact opposite : We already have a number of knots, that we have tied by exploring any simple and secure knot that can exist, and then we utilize / use those knots, as tools, according to their properties, in many different practical applications. Even if a knot is discovered when someone tried to solve a particular problem, the moment this knot is tied, it functions as a rope-made mechanism, so it acquires an autonomous existence, it becomes a tool - a tool which can solve many similar practical problems, but also many problems that belong to other "categories" as well. So, it is better if we classify the knots according to their function, and not according to the specific purpose they can serve.

 
 
 
 
 
Title: Re: Which knots to know?
Post by: X1 on June 21, 2013, 04:59:11 PM
  You conveniently deleted, "Try to imagine..."
   I had edited my post. My point had nothing to do with this "try to imagine" part. The "conveniently" lies only in your imagination !
   Read again, please, what I wrote, and "try to understand" ...There was not a single word that could be considered as a criticism of this hypothetical or not scenario. It was only addressing the "many applications" issue, in relation to the "many knot categories" one.
   Therefore, I think that the different knots that we should include in pour list should be different kinds of knots, that belong to different "knot categories", i.e. different knots in relation to the knots themselves... and not different in relation to different practical applications .