International Guild of Knot Tyers Forum

General => Chit Chat => Topic started by: Ruby on May 25, 2013, 03:50:05 AM

Title: Bowline and Eskimo bowline, just the same
Post by: Ruby on May 25, 2013, 03:50:05 AM
Sometimes I wondered what's an Eskimo bowline,
And what's the difference with common bowline,

Today I suddenly realized that they are almost same knot.

The tying method is exactly the same method as #1010

So just rotate a bowline , or load it by the tail leg,
it becomes an Eskimo bowline.

Maybe it's obvious, I just find it very interesting .
Title: Re: Bowline and Eskimo bowline, just the same
Post by: Dan_Lehman on May 25, 2013, 04:36:22 AM
Sometimes I wondered what's an Eskimo bowline,
And what's the difference with common bowline,

Today I suddenly realized that they are almost same knot.

The tying method is exactly the same method as #1010

So just rotate a bowline , or load it by the tail leg,
it becomes an Eskimo bowline.

Maybe it's obvious, I just find it very interesting .

It apparently is yet to be obvious to you --you do not
"load it by the tail leg".  The bowline is to the (same-side)
sheet bend
as the eskimo bowline is to the lapp bend.
Tying methods will differ, in order to achieve the different knots.
(But the knots' nubs/bodies could be illustrated in much the
same way --could share that part of the illustration!)


--dl*
====
Title: Re: Bowline and Eskimo bowline, just the same
Post by: Ruby on May 25, 2013, 08:24:11 AM
It apparently is yet to be obvious to you

no , it's not obvious to me.  I just find it today. and I thought maybe it's obvious to someone else.


you do not "load it by the tail leg".

no. actually it's loaded by the Spart leg.
 and , then , need to cut the loop and reconnect the old SPart and tail leg


Tying methods will differ, in order to achieve the different knots.

in order to achieve the two different knots ,
 I just find the tying methods happen to be the same.

(http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=4396.0;attach=10670;image)
(http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=4396.0;attach=10672;image)
(http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=4396.0;attach=10674;image)



the knots' nubs/bodies could be illustrated in much the
same way --could share that part of the illustration!


yes ,  I think  the knots' nubs/bodies is just the same

(http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=4396.0;attach=10676;image)
Title: Re: Bowline and Eskimo bowline, just the same
Post by: Ruby on May 25, 2013, 08:31:14 AM
in common bowline quick method as ABoK 1010 , the ring or pole is on the ground

but

sometimes the ring or pole to tie a bowline around is over head,
and then using this same method to tie a bowline,
we just get an Eskimo bowline

same method


(http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=4396.0;attach=10678;image)
Title: Re: Bowline and Eskimo bowline, just the same
Post by: Ruby on May 25, 2013, 08:41:18 AM
when the object to tie around is over head,

some knot books suggest that first tie a overhand knot

and then pull down the tail to capsize into a loop , and then continue to tie a bowline

I think this method is too much work.

using above  same 1010 method, just tie an Eskimo bowline,  and it's still a good knot. maybe better.
Title: Re: Bowline and Eskimo bowline, just the same
Post by: X1 on May 25, 2013, 02:59:43 PM
   As said the other day, this is not the worst form of the "Eskimo" bowline, but it is not the best either.
   I guess I have to explain it a little more... The thing we are most afraid of, is the deformation and the "opening" of the bowline s nipping loop. If what prevents this is the continuation of the tail-side eye leg, and not the tail itself, any action that will tend to separate the two limbs of the nipping loop will not tend to pull the tail out...
   The best form of the "Eskimo" bowline, where the tail does not play any direct role in preventing the "opening" of the nipping loop, while, at the same time, it is squeezed underneath its own continuation, is the form shown at the attached pictures.
   Read also : 
   http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4175
Title: Re: Bowline and Eskimo bowline, just the same
Post by: Ruby on May 25, 2013, 03:09:28 PM
so the knot I posted is not an Eskimo bowline?

I think I didn't see it in ABoK, so I don't know the standard Esmimo bwl,
and I'm wrong....


any way, no big diffrence.
if an Eskimo bowline is like what you two pointed out,
then ,

it's nub is same with a left handed bowline, ABoK 1034 1/2


the tying method is still almost the same with #1010

just around the SPART leg in another direction.
Title: Re: Bowline and Eskimo bowline, just the same
Post by: X1 on May 25, 2013, 03:19:26 PM
   so the knot I posted is not an Eskimo bowline?

   It is an "Eskimo" bowline, it is not the "Eskimo" bowline, simply because there is no such a (one) thing : there are four of them !  :)

See : http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4175
Title: Re: Bowline and Eskimo bowline, just the same
Post by: Ruby on May 25, 2013, 03:38:39 PM
ok , I just find  that what 75RR and X1 posted is different knot.

75RR's Eskimo is like the left handed bowline #1034 1/2


and X1's Eskimo bowline is just same as  common bowline #1010


and,  to get what X1 suggested,  after tying as I posted, need a little additional dressing.

that is , to rotate the tail around the tail leg  90 degrees, the lock it with the SPart's entrance first curve

then , it's the same knot as X1 posted.

Title: Re: Bowline and Eskimo bowline, just the same
Post by: Ruby on May 25, 2013, 04:00:19 PM
after dressed  , I think it's the same with that locked Eskimo

tie a bowline
(http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=4396.0;attach=10674;image)


move tail a little
(http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=4396.0;attach=10718;image)


tightened
(http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=4396.0;attach=10714;image)
Title: Re: Bowline and Eskimo bowline, just the same
Post by: X1 on May 25, 2013, 05:14:02 PM
   Ruby, 75RR, give it another try !  :)
   It is NOT the same knot, obviously ! Tie all the four (4) variations of the "Eskimo" bowline, and you will see it.
   In two variations the working end collars the standing part s side eye leg turning clockwise, and in the other two turning counter-clockwise.
   In two variations the tail goes under the tail s side eye leg, and in the other two over it. 
   ( It is not "a little additional dressing" , it is a different dressing - which enhances the security of the knot, because it places the tail UNDER the continuation of the eye leg, in direct contact with the standing part s first curve ).

With the Eskimo under load i.e. "working", I see no difference in whether the tail is above or below the Eye Leg of the Bight.

   The exact opposite is true !  :)  : With the Eskimo unloaded, i.e. "not working", I see no difference in whether the tail is above or below the Eye Leg of the Bight.
Title: Re: Bowline and Eskimo bowline, just the same
Post by: Ruby on May 25, 2013, 05:53:11 PM
   It is NOT the same knot, obviously !
well, sure not. really obviously. I'm just saying about the tying method :)


 
It is not "a little additional dressing" , it is a different dressing ...
different. with little diffference. in look only.
well, anyway , the dressed result I posted is the same locked Eskimo as you posted , right?

(http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=4396.0;attach=10714;image)
(http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=4396.0;attach=10716;image)

if right, then no problem.   carefully dressing is always required

like tying carrick bend or tying bowline using a slip overhand to capsize into the final result
there's always careful dressing needed.
Title: Re: Bowline and Eskimo bowline, just the same
Post by: X1 on May 25, 2013, 06:21:02 PM
   I'm just saying about the tying method :)

   I believe that, if it is difficult to tell the differences between knots, it is much more difficult to tell the difference between tying methods !
   What a person could perceive as "similar", to another it would seem altogether different... If we find difficult to tell if two spatial arrangements / knots are different or not, imagine how difficult it would become when we will consider two sequences of moves, i.e.two spatiotemporal arrangements / tying methods !  :) Where there are also elements that are not shown in the final picture : the FINGERS of the knot tyer !  :)

the dressed result I posted is the same locked Eskimo as you posted , right?

  Right, obviously  :). However, in your previous post(s) where the bowline is tied around the pole, the standing end is coming from "below", while in this more common view, it comes from "above". I think it would be better / easier to us, the viewers, if, when you publish a series of pictures, you keep the same orientation of the standing end, even when you show the "front" and the "back" view of the same knot. I have also to notice that those "red" and "orange" ropes are, for pictures, even worse than my "green" one !  :) I think it would be better if you use a round, smooth monochrome rope ...
Title: Re: Bowline and Eskimo bowline, just the same
Post by: X1 on May 25, 2013, 06:34:49 PM
Widen that loop !

  How much ?  :) Even when you will widen it enough, you would nt find yourself in the situation you describe : "... the tail is above or below the Eye Leg of the Bight." You will tie an "Eskimo" bowline where the tail would be on the side of its continuation, neither "above" nor "below" it. So, this statement

With the Eskimo under load i.e. "working", I see no difference in whether the tail is above or below the Eye Leg of the Bight.

is wrong, the one way or the other... :) In a loaded knot, if the first segment is "below" the second, and the second is "above" the first, it does matter which is the tail and which is the tail-side eye leg, the continuation of the tail.
Title: Re: Bowline and Eskimo bowline, just the same
Post by: X1 on May 25, 2013, 07:00:01 PM
   I believe that the tail will remain "above" or "below" its continuation / the tail side eye leg, even in this 90-120 degrees "Eskimo" bowline you show. You would have to dress it veeery carefully, in order to achieve a "side-by-side" position - and I am not sure that, even then, those two segments would remain so, after the final (heavy) loading. The "side-by-side" form, for this particular pair of "Eskimo" bowline we are talking about, is not very stable, even when we have quite "wide" loops.
Title: Re: Bowline and Eskimo bowline, just the same
Post by: X1 on May 25, 2013, 07:35:25 PM
   I believe I know why you find it difficult to "see" the obvious here. You have tied the other-hand "Eskimo" bowline you show, where the difference between the "tail over" and the "tail under" forms is not so evident. ( I do not specify the "right-hand" and the "left-hand" forms of the "Eskimo" bowline here, because that does not matter in our discussion, and it may even blur the issue. The only important thing is that, in the "Eskimo" bowline you show, the continuation of the tail-side eye leg goes from the other side of the standing part, than in the "Eskimo" bowline I show. )
   See the attached pictures, for the ( one of the two ) "other-hand" variations .   
Title: Re: Bowline and Eskimo bowline, just the same
Post by: X1 on May 25, 2013, 08:06:40 PM
   All I am saying is that in the photographs you have presented (tied around a nail) :) the tail would appear to be under more "grip" than a wider loop stance (tied around a bollard)  :) would actually give.

  I am glad you are saying it now - because that is not what you was saying till now.  :)  Of course, the tail would not only "appear", but it would "be" under more "grip" in a narrower loop than in a wider one ! That is why I have shown the pictures I have shown, so everybody would be able to "see" the difference clearly - but that does not mean that there is no difference in the wider loops !  :)
  When you will tie and try all the four forms of the "Eskimo" bowline a number of times, in narrow and/or wide loop configurations, you will see what I mean. Then, you would be able to chose which one to present in your booklet - because you do not need to show more than one, of course ! And the same is true for the Gleipnir binder, where we have also a number of different variations, albeit of a less important nature.
Title: Re: Bowline and Eskimo bowline, just the same
Post by: Ruby on May 26, 2013, 01:40:04 AM
Quote
elements that are not shown in the final picture : the FINGERS of the knot tyer !

in Ashley's picture you can find  the FINGERS of the knot tyer  :)
maybe that's best for showing tying method. though very few.

(http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=4396.0;attach=10678;image)


Quote
  places the tail UNDER the continuation of the eye leg, in direct contact with the standing part s first curve


I think I got it. so, this is your knot theory? sounds interesting and reasonable. good lesson learned.


Ashley said left-hand bowline #1034.5 is distinctly inferior, without mention the reason.

maybe this is the reason. 
in common bowline #1010, the tail is locked by the standing part s first curve,
and in left-hand bowline #1034.5, the tail is NOT locked by the standing part s first curve



so , if I change a  left-hand bowline to an Eskimo bwl,
the tail is then naturally ocked by the standing part s first curve, no more dressing


as this pic,

(http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=4396.0;attach=10734;image)

if form the loop by connecting B and C at below(blue), and A is the SPart,
then it's a left-hand bowline.
the tail is NOT locked by the standing part?s first curve

if form the loop by connecting A and C at top (yellow) , and B is the SPart,
then it's an Eskimo bowline.
and the tail is naturally locked by the standing part's first curve


right?
Title: Re: Bowline and Eskimo bowline, just the same
Post by: Ruby on May 26, 2013, 02:01:36 AM
...
when you publish a series of pictures, you keep the same orientation of the standing end
...
well, I rotated it just to match your picture :)

I just take picture by phone, hope it's clear.


so to form Eskimo by tying it as a common bowline, careful dressing is needed,
 keeping in mind that the tail should be locked by the SPart's first curve.


first, tie it as a common bowline
(http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=4396.0;attach=10736;image)


second, arrange the tail to top, near under the  SPart's first curve.
this is somehow like difference between 1408 and 1409. little difference, big change.
(http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=4396.0;attach=10738;image)


finally , tighten it , by pulling the SPart and the tail leg.
(http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=4396.0;attach=10740;image)


back:

(http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=4396.0;attach=10742;image)
Title: Re: Bowline and Eskimo bowline, just the same
Post by: Luca on May 26, 2013, 02:56:17 AM
Hi Ruby,

Bowline and Eskimo Bowline,just (topologically) the same?
I thought (since one have to "cut and paste" as you described in reply # 2) no, but someone has proved the contrary (fourth pic):

http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4276.msg26587#msg26587

If you ideally lengthen the tail of the common Bowline on the left of the fourth pic till  it goes UNDER and longer the eye visible there, then you can realize that, starting from this set, you can get an Eskimo that will have a mirror (and left-handed / # 1034 1/2) version of the knot's nub of the initial common bowline,even if you do not have access to the ends of the rope!

                                                                                                                           Bye!
Title: Re: Bowline and Eskimo bowline, just the same
Post by: X1 on May 26, 2013, 07:21:54 AM
in Ashley's picture you can find  the FINGERS of the knot tyer  :)

  Those are not my fingers !  :) I do not tie this knot this way... That was my point : it seems to me that every knot tyer ties the same knots by different ways, so we can not really say what is "the tying method" he follows... This "tying method" is a very complicated thing, that involves moving parts, motion, time. How are we supposed to compare "tying" something, when we still find difficulties to compare one "tied" something with another "tied" something ?

right?

Right - and ropes of right colours, too !  :) Those dark spots on your "red" and "orange" rope were destroying the contour of the lines...
Title: ABoK#1051
Post by: X1 on May 26, 2013, 04:38:55 PM
   As we are talking about the "Eskimo" bowlines here, I would like to remind/mention another "similar" loop, that is post-eye-tiable AND tiable-in-the-bight - a rare combination, that has recently been applied in the Luca s bowline and the two pairs of the pet TIB bowlines presented at (1). It is the almost forgotten, as such, close relative of the "Eskimo" bowlines, the ABoK#1051. I believe it can be considered as another, just a little more complex variation of the "Eskimo" bowlines, indeed. Although it is not more secure or more stable than they are, it is interesting and useful nevertheless, because it a TIB eyeknot - and because it is probably the simpler TIB bowline presented by Ashley. ( It is also the simplest TIB bowline I am aware of...) ( See the attached pictures).
 
1. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4354.0