International Guild of Knot Tyers Forum

General => New Knot Investigations => Topic started by: X1 on January 12, 2013, 03:04:46 PM

Title: Another variation of the TackleClamp hitch.
Post by: X1 on January 12, 2013, 03:04:46 PM
   Another variation of the TackleClamp hitch (1)(2). I call it "3,4 TackleClamp hitch", for the obvious reason it is a 3 wraps hitch, if viewed from the one side, and a 4 wraps hitch, if viewed from the other  :) ( a 3 / 4 wraps Janus hitch... ). However, I believe this name might also serve as a mnemonic trick, so the image and the tying method of the knot can be recalled more easily.
   Rock-solid, of course - just like the original variation (1). The mechanical advantage helps to pre-tension the hitch very efficiently, pulling the two opposing bights the one towards the other with enhanced force, so its round turns will not be able to deform (elongate) much during a lengthwise pull. It can be tied with more wraps, and in a TIB, easy-to-release slipped form, just like the original TackleClamp hitch and the Double Cow hitch - but I have not wished to spoil its beauty  :) , so here I show it only in its most simple form . Although it is not fully symmetric, it retains a certain regular pattern the human brain can grasp, memorize easily, and appreciate . The pleasure a secure, tight and beautiful knot offers can not be overestimated.   
   Evidently, one can tie it making the circular arcs of the 3 wraps side longer, and those of the 4 wraps side shorter - and vice versa. I have chosen to show it in the most "balanced"  form ( the free ends are leaving from diametrically opposite points of the circumference of the pole s cross section ), although it might be difficult to achieve this exact form... one can not predict how long or short would the wraps be, after he has tightened them as hard as he can. One might argue that it would better to have shorter 3 wraps and longer 4 wraps, so the areas of contact between the pole and the rope would be more extended, but that is a debatable issue.
   I prefer to use nylon-based ropes, because I believe that the more stretchy nature of this material keeps the TackleClamp hitches tighter, but a I have seen that they work very well with other meterials, too.

1. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3813.0
2. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4035.0
Title: Re: Another variation of the TackleClamp hitch.
Post by: SS369 on January 14, 2013, 12:03:36 AM
I'd like to request some flip side pictures of these if I may?

SS
Title: Re: Another variation of the TackleClamp hitch.
Post by: X1 on January 14, 2013, 03:31:50 AM
I'd like to request some flip side pictures of these if I may ?

   What do you mean by this ? It is but one and the same knot+pole, and I had taken pictures of it from FOUR different angles...Are they not enough ?  :)
   If 4-views can be misleading ( can they ?) , imagine what happens with the 0-views practiced in this Forum... :)
Title: Re: Another variation of the TackleClamp hitch.
Post by: SS369 on January 14, 2013, 04:10:42 AM
What I mean by flip side is the side that does not show in your pictures.
The views are not misleading at all, I would have just liked to see the opposite side.

SS
Title: Re: Another variation of the TackleClamp hitch.
Post by: X1 on January 14, 2013, 06:23:16 AM
the side that does not show in your pictures.

   Strictly speaking...there is no other side  :) - there are only two sides, the top and the bottom, or the front and the back. The one has 3 wraps on it, and the other 4.
   However, yes, you are right, the pictures CAN be difficult to understand, indeed, because the interesting details are in between the two sides !  :)
   Do not let me mislead you !  :) It is essentially the same old TackleClamp hitch... where I have lengthened the segments that are now on the 4 wraps side, and shortened the segments which are now on the 3 wraps side. Why did I do this ? Because I thought the hitch would be tighter, if the segments of the side where there are 4 of them, are at least as long as the segments of the side where there all only 3 of them. More rope length, more contact area, better grip. I tried many intermediate and extreme positions, and I had settled in this balanced, beautiful, two sides form shown here ( which is not always easy to obtain from the first attempt !). Of course, one can tie it with the segments on the 4 wraps side even longer, so they will be extended and occupy a portion of the 3 wraps side as well - but I did not wish to destroy the simple pattern : two sides, one with 4 and the other with 3 wraps - a Janus hitch !  :)
  I have tred to take pictures of this "balanced" form of the TackleClamp hitch tied on a transparent "pole", but I am not sure I was succesfull...( it is not so easy, and my transparent pole had a handle on it ! :) I needed the handle to offer some means of "orientation" to the viewer, but I was forced by its location to tie the hitch a little higher than I would have wished...). Anyway, for the time being I post them here, but I will try to take some better pictures some other day.
Title: Re: Another variation of the TackleClamp hitch.
Post by: X1 on January 14, 2013, 06:33:57 AM
   See the attached picture for the same hitch shown at the previous post, with the same dimensions, where the transparent pole has been removed, and has been replaced by a small-er-diameter stick. The pattern of the TackleClamp hitch is clearly shown...However, it might be difficult to tie the knot so the 4 wraps side and the 3 wraps side would be equal, like it happens at the "balanced" 3,4 TackleClamp hitch. It may need a few attempts, until one gets the "feeling" of how the knot is tightened, and how it is tightened when tied on the particular material at hand - because, in the final, tight form,  the lengths of the segments that mostly belong at the 4 wraps or the 3 wraps sides, depend upon the fiction characteristics of the rope AND the pole.
Title: Re: Another variation of the TackleClamp hitch.
Post by: SS369 on January 14, 2013, 04:02:49 PM
Thank you for your work Constant.
The x-ray view does help.
I found a piece of clear PVC pipe and tied it on and here the result is attached. I can better appreciate the difficulty in photographing using it.

Additionally, the last photo shows the knot with a interesting perspective and may lead me to a mnemonic.

SS
Title: Re: Another variation of the TackleClamp hitch.
Post by: X1 on January 14, 2013, 06:51:24 PM
   On this particular pole, with this particular rope, I had tied the 3,4 TackleClamp variation starting from the intial arrangement shown in the first attached picture... and then pulling both ends, the one after the other, as hard as I can. However, with another pole and/or another rope, it might not be possible to reach to this "balanced" tight form starting from this arrangement - because with a more or with a less slippery pole and/or rope, the hitch can "close" a little before or a little after it reaches this stage.

   Beautiful picture, Scot ! Congratulations !
Title: Re: Another variation of the TackleClamp hitch.
Post by: X1 on January 15, 2013, 04:33:23 PM
with another pole and/or another rope, it might not be possible to reach to this "balanced" tight form starting from this arrangement - because with a more or with a less slippery pole and/or rope, the hitch can "close" a little before or a little after it reaches this stage.

   Right ?
   Wrong !  :)

( In general, it pays if one is right 51% of the times, and wrong "only" 49 %. However, knots are so strange animals, that knot tyers cannot be sure even for this...)

The relative diameters of the rope and the pole play a major role. 
 
    I have attempted to tie the 3,4 TackleClamp hitch with a paracord, starting from the initial arrangement shown at the attached pictures, the same I used at the pictures shown in my previous post. I had expected that, if tied with tis material, the hitch will "close" quickly, and leave the segments that belong mainly to the 4 wraps side much longer than the ones that belong mainly on the 3 wraps side  - because the paracord is the less slippery rope I have (1), and the multi-coloured rope I used for the hitsh shown at the previous post the most slippery one ! So, I expected that I was able to reach the 3,4 "balanced" form of the TackleClamp hitch shown at the pictures at the previous post only because the multi-coloured rope is so slippery - so it is able to slip easily on the surface of the pole, and through the "locking" bights - while, with the paracord, that would not be the case.
   Well, I was wrong, again. The hitch tied on the paraxord closed after I would have expected, at a stage in between the original TackleClamp hitch and the form presented in this thread. Although the rope was not slippery, and the pole was the same, the "pure" 3,4 TackleClamp hitch form was not available for this material. 
   The only thing left to me to suppose, is what I had mentioned above : that the relative diameters of the rope and the pole play a greater role than one would have expected.

1). Although the material on the external surface of the paracord is slippery, the way it is weaved leaves deep grooves ( relativelly with the grooves on the surface of the multi-coloured rope ), that ought to enhance friction, when one segment of the paracord bites hard another - that is what I thought it would had happened...
Title: Re: Another variation of the TackleClamp hitch.
Post by: X1 on January 15, 2013, 06:13:47 PM
   This time I had used another rope, of about the diameter of the paracord, but I had also changed something else : starting from the same initial arrangement as before, I tightened this first not-yet-pre-tensioned hitch a little bid, at this stage, by removing as much the slack left in the round turns as I could, without pulling the free ends ! So, the initial arrangement shown in the first attached picture is of one already a-little-tight / not-very-loose knot. Then I pulled the free ends the one after the other against the pole, as always.
   The hitch did not even reached at the 3,4 TacleClamp "balanced" form !  :) It "closed" well before it, and became rock solid before the segments that belong mostly at the 3 wraps side would become as long as the segments that belong to the 4 wraps side. As one can see at the pictures below, the circular arcs at the 3 wraps side are about 50% shorter than the ones at the 4 wraps side ( they span 120 degrees, while those at the 4 wraps side span 240 degrees ).
   So, here is one more thing that determines the form of this hitch : the degree the initial arrangement is tight, before we start pulling the free ends.
   The good thing is that it is probably better to have longer segments on the 4 wraps side than on the 3 wraps side - so it will make no harm if we start from an already tight initial arrangement, before we proceed pretensioning the hitch by pulling its free ends as hard as we can. We may not be able to reach to the beautiful, "balanced" 3,4 TackleClamp hitch form, but we would have tied another rock solid tight hitch - with greater contact area between the round turns of the rope and the surface of the pole than the original TackleClamp hitch.
   The interested reader is kindly requested to tie the hitch on his ropes and poles, and report the form his hitch will reach when it will be pretensioned, starting from a little-bid-tight / not-loose initial arrangement, as the arrangement shown here.
Title: Re: Another variation of the TackleClamp hitch.
Post by: X1 on January 17, 2013, 12:16:09 AM
   As I see it, the advantage of this variation of the TackleClamp hitch over the original one, is this :
   At the original TackleClamp hitch (1), pulling the ends can sometimes force the two opposing bights to "close" prematurely, before the hitch was given the opportunity to be tightened as much as possible. In this variation, this will never happen. We may be not able to tighten it so it settles to the exact "balanced" form, where the 3 wraps side and the 4 wraps side are equal, but only to a form where the segments of the round turns of the 3-side will be longer or shorter than those of the 4-side - but there is no danger for the hitch to "close" before we will be able to drive it to its maximally tight stage.

1. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3813.0
Title: Re: Another variation of the TackleClamp hitch.
Post by: X1 on January 18, 2013, 04:30:01 PM
   Tied on another "rope". Although the "kern" slips inside the "mantle", the hitch was been able to "close" quickly, and become rock solid. The 3 wraps side remained much less extended than the 4 wraps one ( See the attached pictures), even if the surface or the "rope" was quite slippery. I believe that this was due to the softness of the "mantle", that enabled the material to be flattened and the friction on the pole/rope contact areas to be enhanced -  so the round turns were less prone to slip on the surface of the pole, and transform the "initial arrangement" more than they actually did. 
   Im this thread I show TackleClamp hitches tied on their simplest form, so the reader would be able to concentrate on the essentials. I have not shown multi-wrap or slipped versions of those hitches, although, most probably, those are the more useful forms. The reader should know that, if he ties a non-slipped version and he tightens it as much as he can, it would be difficult to loosen the knot afterwards. So, it is better to tie this extremely tight hitch very near the end of the pole, so when he wishes to release it, he will be able to do it easily, without loosen it - just by pushing the first round turn out of the end of the pole.
Title: Re: Another variation of the TackleClamp hitch.
Post by: X1 on January 18, 2013, 04:33:22 PM
  A picture of the side view of the the tight hitch ( one can see a part of the 2 wraps sude and a part of the 4 wraps side ), where I have included the ends of this rope.  :)
Title: Starting from the Clove hitch...
Post by: X1 on January 21, 2013, 10:40:44 PM
   To distinguish the two forms ( I do not know if we can speak of two "variations" ) of the TackleClamp hitch, I call the one presented in this thread as (3,4) TackleClamo hitch ( to denote that the 3 wraps side is smaller or equal to the 4 wraps side ), and the one presented earlier (1) as (4,3) TackleClamp hitch ( the 4 wraps is the smaller side, and the 3 wraps is the larger - which might indicate that the form presented in the present thread, except from being less prone to "close" prematurely (2), has also a greater gripping potential )
   
1.  http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3813.0
2.  http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4224.msg26013#msg26013

 
the last photo shows the knot with a interesting perspective and may lead me to a mnemonic.

  I can never imagine how people prefer to tie knots - because it seems that everybody ties the same knots in a different way !
  In this post I suggest an easy to remember and implement "mnemonic" , starting from the Clove hitch - in the case where both ends are accessible. Of course, in practical situations this is seldom the case, but to learn how the knot is working one has to tie it a number of times ( I myself need at least a dozen times to "get" any knot...), so I believe that this mnemonic can serve as an educational aid. When the interested reader will follow the sequence of pictures, step by step, he will tie the hitch easily,and then he will be able to appreciate its beauty, security, tightness and gripping power. Then, it is up to him to fall in love with this knot ( as I did), or not - and if he does, I am sure he will discover MANY other ways to handle it, as we always do with the things we really like.

   Just follow the attached pictures.( I had added some comments on each of them, but now I see they are redundant...So, no (more) comments / blah blah !   :))
Title: Starting from the Clove hitch...
Post by: X1 on January 21, 2013, 10:42:37 PM
  5-8.
Title: Re: Another variation of the TackleClamp hitch.
Post by: TMCD on January 22, 2013, 08:54:36 PM
Thanks for the pictures Xarax, I've never been able to fully figure out some of these knots and still not sure I'm tying this thing right. I've started with the Clove Hitch version 1-4, what's the difference in it and 5-8? This is obviously a pole gripping hitch? What other applications do use this for? I don't think I'm tying it right, doesn't seem to hold very well for me on a diagonal pull but I'm using paracord on a urethaned wooden painting pole used for painting walls.

I think I got it, the step in between numbers 4 and 5 was throwing me for a loop, it's a very subtle step. Man, I can crank this thing down like there's no tomorrow...I'm glad I finally figured this out. Disregard my above question Xarax....thanks for simplifying the tying technique. Jeez, and I call myself a master knotsman...far from it around here. lol.
Title: Re: Another variation of the TackleClamp hitch.
Post by: X1 on January 22, 2013, 09:17:00 PM
This is obviously a pole gripping hitch?

   No... :) It is the best (= tightest) pole gripping hitch we have. For what a "tight" gripping hitch is, read (1).

   I don't think I'm tying it right, doesn't seem to hold very well for me on a diagonal pull

  It holds a lengthwise pull, - and a very heavy one. For just a diagonal pull, you can tie the common, easier to tie but less "tight", "snug" hitches.
  To tie the previous variation, that I now call (4,3) TackleClamp hitch ( where the 4 wraps side is smaller than the 3 wraps side ), read (2).
  If you tie those hitches enough times ( I need to tie any knot a dozen times, at least, before I feel confortable I have understood it ), I am afraid you will not going to tie any other tight hitch again !  :)

1.  http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4155.0
2.  http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3813.0
Title: Re: Another variation of the TackleClamp hitch.
Post by: TMCD on January 22, 2013, 09:23:49 PM
Sorry X, I figured it out as you were responding to my first question...see modified version. Great little hitch and it's got some serious mechanical advantage..I love it.
Title: Re: Another variation of the TackleClamp hitch.
Post by: X1 on January 22, 2013, 10:37:26 PM
and it's got some serious mechanical advantage...

 The great advantage of the "tight' hitches is that, by securing ( = "locking") the standing end as well as the tail, they can retain any tensile forces that have been accumulated into them during a pre-tensioning phase - neither the standing end nor the tail can slip through the locking mechanism of the nipping bights. So, those hitchers will be less prone to a pronounced, detrimental deformation of their round turns later, when they will be confronted with a lengthwise pull.
Title: Re: Another variation of the TackleClamp hitch.
Post by: TMCD on January 23, 2013, 02:29:40 PM
I haven't tried all of your variations of the Tackle Clamp Hitch, but did try the original one I believe,(the one with multi wraps of orange cord) and believe it's probably your best work. I can actually get some of these variations to move diagonally when using paracord on a lengthwise pull on slick surfaces....I couldn't on your original work. Again, I haven't tied the Double Cow because I haven't figured it out yet, that's to be determined but it certainly looks promising. 

Anybody else feel free to chime in here, what's X's best work on this? I think the original version is but haven't tried a couple others.
Title: Re: Another variation of the TackleClamp hitch.
Post by: X1 on January 23, 2013, 04:09:43 PM
  The "original" (4,3) version might suffer from a premature "closure", where the two opposing bights "kiss" each other before the round turns are tensioned to the maximum possible degree ( 1 ). However, its "initial arrangement" might be more easy to remember, indeed,  because, intuitively, it seems more "natural" ( as shown in the series of pictures at (2)). At the (4,3) variation, you work on the 4 wraps side, which, when you pull the ends, shrinks in favour of the 3 wraps side, while at the (3,4) variation presented in this thread you work on the 3 wraps side : it is the 3 wraps side that is shrinking now, in favour of the 4 wraps side. I thought that this would be an advantage for this variation, because longer round turn paths on the 4 wraps side of the pole and shorter round turn paths on the 3 wraps side of the pole could only mean more contact area between the round turns and the pole, so more gripping power. However, the initial arrangement of the (3,4) variation presented in this thread might be a little difficult to remember correctly - it is not intuitively "natural" any more. That is why I attempted to show a simple tying method of it, starting from the Clove hitch...
   Do not let the number of round turns confuse you - any one of those two variations can be tied with more wraps, if we wish a greater yet gripping power. However, we should compare apples to apples - and hitches with the same number of wraps.
    The "simplified" TackleClamp hitches presented at (3), where the "initial arrangement"  is a Cow hitch, do not use any mechanical advantage like the (3,4) and the (4,3) variations. They are "tight" hitches, of course, and they have the advantage of being very easy to remember how to set up andto tie ( as they are "lockable" versions of the simple and the double Cow hitch ), but they can not be tightened as hard as the genuine TackleClamp hitches (4).     

1   http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4224.msg26013#msg26013
2   http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3813.msg22523#msg22523
3   http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4035.0
4   http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4035.msg24116#msg24116
Title: Re: Another variation of the TackleClamp hitch.
Post by: TMCD on January 23, 2013, 08:02:49 PM
Am I the only one here who has better luck with the trusty Pipe Hitch? I've tied at least two of X's presented hitches for a lengthwise pull and theh Pipe Hitch blows X's work out of the H2O. I can easily move X's hitches lengthwise but simply can't budge a four turn Pipe Hitch....someone chime in here, tell me you're experiencing the same thing???

BTW, I'm tying these knots on a one foot long painters pole using paracord that is wooden with three coats of slick Polyurethane and X's work simply won't pass the test but I can't budge the Well Pipe Hitch, ABOK 504 to be exact.

Maybe your work is great with other materials X, I shall try different materials later today but it's struggling to hold water with today's modern paracord. Is there a secret method to tightening these hitches of yours?
Title: Re: Another variation of the TackleClamp hitch.
Post by: X1 on January 23, 2013, 11:15:49 PM
Am I the only one here who has better luck with the trusty Pipe Hitch?

   I believe that you are the only one that ties a Pipe hitch with n wraps, and compare it with a TackleClamp hitch with n-x wraps... :) (x = greater, much greater, than 2...). It may also be the case that you do not pre-tension the TackleClamp hitch, because, if you are accustomed to the Pipe hitch, you tend to tie those two knots with the same way... that is, leave them loose, and wait till they will be tensioned by themselves only afterwards, by the lengthwise pull, through the standing end. You have to pull both ends of the TackleClamp hitch, while with the Pipe hitch you can not do this - even if you wish !  :)

 
I can easily move X's hitches lengthwise but simply can't budge a four turn Pipe Hitch....someone chime in here, tell me you're experiencing the same thing???

   I experience exactly the opposite !  :)
   I do not see many 4 wraps Pipe hitches in the illustrations of this knot, probably because a 4 wraps Pipe hitch is such a poor gripping hitch... ABoK#504 has 12 (twelve) wraps, ABoK#1760 has 7 (seven), and ABoK#1761 has 10 (ten). So, I believe that you are the only one who has ever tied a 4 wraps Pipe hitch, that was not able to be budged - or you are the only one that was not able to budge a four wraps Pipe hitch !  :) I believe you did not understand that, in this thread, I have presented only the TackleClamp hitch with the minimum number of wraps to facilitate the learning of it - and I also believe that you have not tied the (3,4) TackleClamp hitch with the same number of wraps you tie the Pipe hitch, or whatever other common gripping hitch you compare to it. You said that

. I can actually get some of these variations to move diagonally when using paracord on a lengthwise pull on slick surfaces....I couldn't on your original work.

   The "original" work and the present work are one and the same thing ! The only difference is the relative size of the 3 wraps, compared to the 4 wraps. At a (3,4) TackleClamp hitch, we have longer 4 wraps and shorter 3 wraps than at a (4,3) TackleClamp hitch ( the "original" hitch) - so it is even tighter than the "original", where you said could not move the round turns diagonally...
   Tie all the hitches you wish to compare with the same number of wraps, and then jump into conclusions !  :)

   If you have speared a minute to read my previous posts or look at my previous pictures, you would have seen/read the ones with the paracord... I have tied those hitches on dozens of different materials. However, I always say that they work better with the nylon-based ones, especially if they involve more than the minimum  3 1/2 wraps - although that is something expected, not actually measured.
   When the TackleClamp hitch is even compared with the Pipe hitch, I can not but smile...  :) The Pipe hitch is inferior even to the simple-hitch-a-la-Gleipnir, because its two ends can not pulled towards each other and secured in place, before the load is applied - the Pipe hitch is not a "tight" hitch. So, when a lengthwise force is applied, the round turns at the former tend to become much more elogngated ( elliptical) than at the later, and so their gripping power is diminished. Now, the TackleClamp hitch is superior even to to the simple-hitch-a-la-Gleipnir, simply because this beneficial pre-tensioning of the round turns is enhanced even more by the mechanical advantage.
  However, I am not going to "defend" the TackleClamp hitch, simply because I am not able to do this - it is a superb knot, that is not on my level. There will always be people that, for their own, personal reasons, will try to deny the miraculous potential of this hitch, and they will "condemn" it, or they will keep silent on it, hoping that it will be forgotten ! :) ( I do not believe they are so short-sighted to expect it will ever be forgotten...). I have seen a similar "problematic" behaviour with the Gleipnir, or the Symmetric Sheet bend - so I am prepared to expect something like this with the TackleClamp hitch. In fact, it was "something like this " that helped me meet this hitch in the first place ! Knot4u was arguing that the Pipe hitch is better than the simple hitch-a-la-Gleipnir, and I thought that an ever tighter hitch would be one where the two ends would not only be kept tightly close to each other ( as at a "tight" hitch, where the standing end is secured ("locked") just like the tail), but they would be also brought to an ever tighter arrangement by the utilization of a mechanical advantage (1)(2)(3). So, who knows, may be the next guy who will question, for whatever reason, the tightest hitch we have to this day, will help me meet something even tighter, in this vast KnotLand !  :)

1  http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3794.msg22224#msg22224
2  http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3794.msg22246#msg22246
3  http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3794.msg22248#msg22248
Title: Re: Another variation of the TackleClamp hitch.
Post by: X1 on January 24, 2013, 01:28:30 AM
   A (5,6) TackleClamp hitch should be compared to a 5 1/2 Pipe hitch - it has 5 wraps on the one side and six on the other. However, I think that we can turn a blind eye here, and compare it to a 6 wraps Pipe hitch. ( For the 4 wraps Pipe hitch, I refer to TMCD budging...)
   If anybody convinces me that a 6 wraps "trusty Pipe hitch"(sic)"blows the TackleClamp hitch out of the H2O" (sic), I swear to KnotGod I will focus all my attention to corset, shoelaces and tie tying, I will learn how to tie a trucker s hitch, at last,  :), and I might even become an expert on airplane tying !  :)
  Come one guys, somebody should grasp this opportunity !  :) It does nt come every day...  :) ( Regarding what will be my gain out of this, I can only say that I hope I will be relieved from my back pain... Less pain, great gain.)
 
Title: Re: Another variation of the TackleClamp hitch.
Post by: TMCD on January 24, 2013, 06:05:44 AM
X,
Your work is really good here and please don't get upset because it doesn't pass my test in paracord...I'm a really strong man at 6-5 280lbs. I have ZERO reason to lie, I can pull your Tackle Clamp hitch lengthwise when using paracord....I can not achieve this with Ashley's Well Pipe Hitch, no matter how much muscle, leverage, weight etc., I put into it.

I wasn't able to budge your Tackle Clamp when using some other cordage I have around my office, so it's probably good for most everything but paracord. The Well Pipe Hitch seems to be the one to beat right now, which shouldn't surprise anyone because it's actually passed the biggest test of all and that's the test of time.
Title: Re: Another variation of the TackleClamp hitch.
Post by: X1 on January 24, 2013, 08:06:43 AM
The Well Pipe Hitch seems to be the one to beat right now, which shouldn't surprise anyone because it's actually passed the biggest test of all and that's the test of time.

   Time is not confined to the past, it is open to the future. It is a river, that flows.
   Any "hitch" with 10, or 100 or 1000 wraps will be unbeatable, in comparison to any 4 wraps hitch. Ashley had a good reason to show his Well Pipe hitch with more than 4 wraps. If you can not pull a Well Pipe hitch with 4 wraps, tied on paracord, you are not such a really strong man you believe you are !  :)
   You speak like the TackleClamp hitch is "a work" of somebody... It is not. It has just happened to me - by pure chance - to be the humble servant who copied it "from The Book" . :) If you have any complain about such a knot (or about an elegant mathematical theorem ), please address it to whom it might concern - the mighty God. :)
   You are not the only one who believes that the poor old Pipe hitch is/was something special... I had the same discussion with knot4u, at the thread I had mentioned (1, and next posts at the same thread). It was proved to be a fertile discussion at the time, but nobody steps into the same point of the river/time two times... :)

   "Ever-newer waters flow on those who step into the same rivers ."
   "Everything changes and nothing remains still ... and you cannot step twice into the same stream"
   "We both step and do not step in the same river. We are and are not."

1.  http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3794.msg22224#msg22224

   P.S. I have just completed a new series of tests of the "trusty Pipe hitch" and the TackleClamp hitch, each with 4 and with 6 wraps, on paracord - the same material shown at Reply#8
http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4224.msg25992#msg25992
   I have to report that, evidently, TMCD used a really strong glue with the Pipe hitch, and a really slippery pole, with the TackleClamp hitch - otherwise I can not explain his findings... However, those tests offered me the opportunity to think about wasted time, this time :).
Title: Re: Another variation of the TackleClamp hitch.
Post by: X1 on January 25, 2013, 11:42:50 PM
   I will try to describe a sequence of moves that may help the interested reader tie the (3,4) TackleClamp hitch - when there is only one accessible end of the rope, and no accessible end of the pole.
   Still smiling all the way from the Pipe hitch to the TackleClamp hitch  :),  I could nt resist the temptation to illustrate my feelings a little bid ... However, one can ignore the yellow and green colours of the TackleClamp smiley, and follow only the blue, red and black coloured lines. ( See the first attached picture). The drawing is related to the second attached picture, which was the #5 of the pictures showing the previously posted tying method ( the one that started with the Clove hitch ).
   Here we go :

1.  Place the standing end at the centre of the right "eye" of the smiley - at the left side of the pole/picture. Follow the blue line. Pass "under" the pole for the first time.
2.  Complete the first round turn - still following the blue line.
3.  Following the blue line, make a first / blue U turn, ( a first "U" shape ), remaining on the "over" side of the pole. Pass "under" the pole for the second time.
4.   Complete the second round turn. Now, follow the black line.
5.   Following the black line, make a "black wave" on the "over" side of the pole. Here you have to make the first tuck, passing the working end first "over" and then "under" the first / blue U.  ( So, the "black wave" passes "over"/"under" the blue U turn, from right to left). Pass "under" the pole for the third time.
6.   Complete the third round turn. Now, follow the red line.
7.   Following the red line, make a second  / red U turn ( a second "U" shape, this time an inverted one ), remaining on the "over" side of the pole. Here, you have to make the second tuck, passing the working end first "under" and then "over" the "black wave". ( So, the red U passes "under"/"over" the "black wave"- the "black wave" passes "over" /"under" the red U, from right to left, just as it had happened with the blue U. That means that the "black wave" passes "over" the external legs of both the blue and the red U s, and "under" their internal legs, at the middle of the knot ). Pass "under" the pole for the fourth time. 
8.  Complete the fourth round turn - still following the red line. Here, you have to make the third tuck, passing the working end "under" the "black wave". Exit through the left "eye" of the smiley - at the right side of the pole/picture.

   One of these days I will try to draw a more decent sketch, where I will clearly show the "under" and "over" crossings of the lines. This was just a first attempt. The reader can follow the description on the drawing AND on the picture, so he will not be confused at the crossings.
Title: Re: Another variation of the TackleClamp hitch.
Post by: TMCD on January 26, 2013, 12:30:41 AM
My three turn Well Pipe Hitch beat your four turn Tackle Clamp Hitch....it's not even close either. The KEY in tying a really good Well Pipe Hitch is making the final tie off, (Clove Hitch part), tight and snug, jamming it down on the pipe itself. If a person ties a WPH and fails to jam down the final tying off process (Clove Hitch) all the way down against the pipe/pole, it will probably fail every time.

This isn't even a close race, I beg my fellow KnotMasters to compare the two knots and tell me which one slips when using 550 paracord and which one holds...I can't even budge the Well Pipe Hitch when tied correctly and yes that's only a three turn deal.

It does take some strength to pull X's hitch lengthwise but I can easily do it, so if you're an older person or simply lack proper strength, I can see where maybe you'd get the impression that the Tackle Clamp Hitch is better than it really is.
Title: Re: Another variation of the TackleClamp hitch.
Post by: X1 on January 26, 2013, 12:59:13 AM
three turn Well Pipe Hitch

   You are getting stronger each day !  :) 3 Turns Pipe hitch ! ( May I suggest you use it with one, and one turn only - so you will save valuable rope length. More strength / less length !  :) ) 

if you're an older person

while I am getting older by the hour, that is true... Time, this f serial killer.
Title: Re: Another variation of the TackleClamp hitch.
Post by: TMCD on January 28, 2013, 08:27:59 PM
I haven't tested your Tackle Clamp Hitch against the Well Pipe Hitch on any other types of slippery surfaces other than my wooden handled painters pole that's pretty dang slick considering it's got several coats of polyurethane as a finish. It's comparable to a table top in it's finish and slickness and the Well Pipe Hitch simply doesn't budge....It even held it's ground using only two round turns with 550 Paracord.

I wish I could tie your Double Cow Hitch and test it, I can't seem to tie it correctly though. I gave it a half ass effort several weeks ago but haven't mustered the focus to try it again. Maybe explain the steps to tying it and I'll compare it too, but this Tackle Clamp deal's been cuffed and stuffed.
Title: Re: Another variation of the TackleClamp hitch.
Post by: X1 on January 28, 2013, 09:45:26 PM
pole that's pretty dang slick

  I guess we should try all the hitches that are meant to withstand a lengthwise pull, on a slippery stainless steel tube. With some of those hitches the relatives diameter of the rope and the tube play a great role. Derek Smith has suggested :
high gloss chrome plated steel tube

the Well Pipe Hitch simply doesn't budge....It even held it's ground using only two round turns with 550 Paracord.

   I do not question your strength !  :) If you can manage to make a 2 turns Pipe hitch to hold, imagine what you can do with the TackleClamp hitch - when you will tie it properly/correctly. Because, as you have said once in a previous post - but perhaps have forgotten by now - the TackleClamp hitch uses a mechanical advantage that the Pipe hitch does not, so it can be tightened harder, and so it can withstand a greater lengthwise pull... in fact, a much greater lengthwise pull ! Also, with a multiple wraps Pipe hitch ( the one shown in ABoK and everywhere else, and the only one that can hold without having to be tightened by a weight lifter... :)), one can pull the one only end of the "coil tube". That places a limitation on the amount of tightening of the coils that are far from the standing end, because of the reverse capstan effect. On the contrary, at the TackleClamp hitch you can pull both ends, the one after the other, so they will be no round turns that will not be tightened. Moreover, because of the "locking" of both those ends, you can have any tensile forces inserted into the round turns be "locked" within the knot, and be ready to prevent the round turns from becoming elognated, when they will be dragged by the lengthwise pull. 

  I repeat : Even ONE turn Pipe hitch ( if one can call still this "thing" with this name...) can hold , if it is tightened enough ! So, we do not need any other hitch than this "thing", do we ? :) The friction hitches based upon many round turns have greater gripping force, EITHER when they are tensioned more, OR when they are tied with more turns. You prefer to wrap the pole with one or two round turns, tighten those round turns with your great strength, and then secure this "thing" with two half hitches ( because this is all what you do, this is all what is hidden in the pompous name "Well Pipe hitch"...). A less strong - but not less clever - guy, would prefer to tie the same knot with many more turns, and dispense with any need to use any strength whatsoever. I have attempted yet another road, that was not taken till now : I use just a few round turns, but I pull them from either of the two ends of the "coil tube" with a moderate strength, using a mechanical advantage - similar to the one achieved by a simple "block and tackle" machine ( hence the name " Tackle- ). Moreover, I use the mechanism of the "end-going-through-two-opposing-bights" "lock", to secure the induced tensile forces into the hitch, right at the moment they are applied during a pre-tensioning (by pulling both ends against the pole) phase - so those forces will be able to remain there even before or after the final lengthwise pull is applied. I "lock" the standing end as well as the tail - that is the meaning of a "tight hitch ". (1) The Double Cow hitch, which is the easiest hitch to tie after the Single Cow hitch, is a tight hitch, but does not use the mechanical advantage of a genuine TackleClamp hitch. Of course, as a tight hitch, it can be pre-tensioned, so it can hold much better than the "round turns plus two half hitches" not-bad knot, known by the pompous name " Well Pipe hitch". Now, I can understand that if you have not tied the Double Cow hitch, you can not tie the TackleClamp hitch either, because it is a more complex knot to tie than two Cow hitches, the one next to the other ( because this is all what is hidden in the less pompous, I believe, name " Double Cow hitch" ). So, I suggest the prudent thing for you to do is to delay the pompous phrases like "blows [TackleClamp] hitch out of the H2O" (sic), " the Tackle Clamp deal's been cuffed and stuffed" (sic), and whatever other clever phrase you are preparing to say... I advise you to respect this knot, because it is a superb knot, and we should respect such marvels works of nature, the KnotLand has offered to us, for free !  :)

P.S. I would have been glad to watch the rope, when you will tighten a TackleClamp hitch with the same force you tighten the "two-round-turns-and-two-half-hitches" "thing" and make it hold ! Or better, to listen to the rope - because it will swing, believe me !  :)

1.   http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4155.0
 
Title: Re: Another variation of the TackleClamp hitch.
Post by: SS369 on January 29, 2013, 12:06:58 AM
Curiosity can cause testing, even if not scientific.

I tied both hitches on a 3/4 inch PVC pipe that had been waxed (for a prior project) and I will venture to say it is at least as slick and slippery as the poly'd painters pole and with no discernible compression or denting.

Here is what I found.
Both slipped and then established a firm hold as the turns elongated at approximately 100 pounds.

The tackleclamp hitch stayed put afterward and the well pipe hitch gave up all of its constrictive force.

The tackle clamp hitch is the knot construct to use, of these two, if you want a close to permanent hitch. It did require a fid to pick it loose to untie.

If you need/want an easily re-positionable hitch then the well pipe hitch succeeds.

I see an excellent use for the tackleclamp hitch and it is for use as a constrictor binding for mending hose connections, binding multiple pieces of fibers, etc.
The amount of tightened force generated and how much of it is retained is impressive.

SS


Title: Re: Another variation of the TackleClamp hitch.
Post by: X1 on January 29, 2013, 12:38:12 AM
   Let me add two comments to your report, SS369.
   1. As shown at your (first) picture, one can pull the TackleClamp hitch, say, downwards, by pulling the upper side ( left, at your picture ), or the lower side ( right, at your picture ) free end - or by somehow connecting them, and pulling them both. I have seen that, if you wish the minimum turn elongation ( circular round turns turning into oblong elliptical ones ), it would be better to hang your load from the upper side free end. ( Not very scientific an observation, though... :)).
   2. When I say that one should pull the ends "the one after the other", I mean to pull the ends in an alternating way, first the first, then the second, then again the first, and so on...I do not mean literally "pull the first end, then pull the second end, period". So, one should tighten the TackleClamp hitch by pulling the first end a little bid, then the second end this much, then again the first end a little bid more, and so on - until he can not pull any end any more - just as we do when we tighten multiple nuts. Otherwise one can run the danger to pull the first end all the way to the end, and have a hitch where the two opposing bights have "kissed" each other, wthout the hitch having been tensioned to the maximum degree. I wonder if TMCD has done something like this with his tests on paracord, because, with a slippery rope like paracord, this mistake will lead to a prematurely "closed", not-maximally tightened hitch.
  3. Less is more - but not always !  :) If you wish a really tight hitch, on very slippery poles, it will do no harm (  :) ) to use the (5, 6) TackleClamp hitch, shown in a previous post ( Reply# 23, (1)).
  4. If you do not want a semi-permanent tight hitch, you have to tie the slipped version of the TackleClamp hitch, which is also a TIB knot (2). I have suggested that, to learn to tie this hitch, it would be better to tie the non-slipped version first - but one should better tie it near one end of the pole, so he can easily push and then pull out one round turn, and release it.

1. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4224.msg26151#msg26151
2  http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3813.msg24500#msg24500
Title: Re: Another variation of the TackleClamp hitch.
Post by: SS369 on January 29, 2013, 01:36:33 AM
I tied it as you have ably described, with the parts arranged snugly and then I pulled both legs equally and got it to where I couldn't tighten it any more bare handed as shown in my photo of it.
I tried pulling each leg, as oriented in that picture, individually and then both paired as one.

I feel that the load applied to the lower side (right side in my picture) allowed for the elongation and perhaps better resistance to the initial sliding. As you can see it did not elongate very much at all and I think most of the elongation is due to the cord itself. Some specs rate the percentage of 550 paracord (milspec) at 30% and that is what I have used.
It is somewhat of a "shock cord" and the design, well is for parachutes.

Paracord used in space on the Hubble> http://www.udel.edu/PR/Messenger/97/3/BLANKET.html (http://www.udel.edu/PR/Messenger/97/3/BLANKET.html)

I have not tried the slipped version, but any more tests like the one I did, I will.

S
Title: Re: Another variation of the TackleClamp hitch.
Post by: X1 on January 29, 2013, 03:14:43 AM
then I pulled both legs equally and got it to where I could tighten it any more bare handed

  I usually pull the one leg after the other, a little bit harder each time, and then pull the ONE only leg as much as I can, both hand and feet against the pole  :), and then repeat the same thing for the other leg.

I feel that the load applied to the lower side (right side in my picture) allowed for the elongation and perhaps better resistance to the initial sliding.

   I feel the exact opposite !  :) I believe that, unlike we do with some others, we must prevent all the round turns of this particular friction gripping hitch from being elongated, as much as we can, right from the start - so the pulling of the end stemming from the higher side ( the left side in your picture), just because it does elongate the round turns less, it offers more resistance to the initial sliding. The initial friction is generated by the tension already present within the round turns, so there is no point of having them inclined at the initial stage. Of course, they will become elongated, and inclined, by the presumably much greater final lengthwise pull, but I do not see any reason to allow them to be more elongated at the initial stage than they can be. That is why I advocate a pulling by the one leg, stemming from the higher side.
   The elognation of the round turns is useful at the rat-tail-stopper-like hitches ( ABoK#1755-1756-1758 ), but I do not believe it offers anything to the TackleClamp hitch - where the two ends of the "coil tube" are already tensioned. That is something that should be tested, of course...
Title: Re: Another variation of the TackleClamp hitch.
Post by: X1 on January 29, 2013, 03:30:07 AM
I see an excellent use for the tackleclamp hitch ... as a constrictor binding for mending hose connections, binding multiple pieces of fibers, etc.
The amount of tightened force generated and how much of it is retained is impressive.

  As a arm-chair knot tyer  :), I can not predict the practical uses of this tight hitch ( or of any other simple knot, I have to say...). "History teaches us that sooner or later a purpose is discovered for everything that exists". I would suppose that it could also be used in place of the common lashings, to bind two (or even three) poles together ( bamboo pole lashings, is the first thing it comes to my mind...). Perhaps somebody would propose another use - corset tying, for example  :) - but I can not imagine all the possible situations a tight hitch like this can be utilized. I explore it as a structure, as a mechanism, but I am sure that, in the future, it will find its own way to solve some practical problems I can not foresee now.
Title: Re: Another variation of the TackleClamp hitch.
Post by: SS369 on January 29, 2013, 04:03:18 AM
then I pulled both legs equally and got it to where I couldn't  <Edited tighten it any more bare handed

  I usually pull the one leg after the other, a little bit harder each time, and then pull the ONE only leg as much as I can, both hand and feet against the pole  :), and then repeat the same thing for the other leg.

I feel that the load applied to the lower side (right side in my picture) allowed for the elongation and perhaps better resistance to the initial sliding.

   I feel the exact opposite !  :) I believe that, unlike we do with some others, we must prevent all the round turns of this particular friction gripping hitch from being elongated, as much as we can, right from the start - so the pulling of the end stemming from the higher side ( the left side in your picture), just because it does elongate the round turns less, it offers more resistance to the initial sliding. The initial friction is generated by the tension already present within the round turns, so there is no point of having them inclined at the initial stage. Of course, they will become elongated, and inclined, by the presumably much greater final lengthwise pull, but I do not see any reason to allow them to be more elongated at the initial stage than they can be. That is why I advocate a pulling by the one leg, stemming from the higher side.
   The elognation of the round turns is useful at the rat-tail-stopper-like hitches ( ABoK#1755-1756-1758 ), but I do not believe it offers anything to the TackleClamp hitch - where the two ends of the "coil tube" are already tensioned. That is something that should be tested, of course...

I feel that the elongation of the TC hitch by pulling the lower cord (right side in my picture) will do a better job of imparting increased tension, After Maximum Tightening, than if the upper cord is pulled because one doesn't want to compress the coils. In my brief experience with this I feel there will be no appreciable gain in constriction by pulling the upper tail.
All this is germane to the orientation in the photo I posted.
Just  my opinion if this is used as a hitch to resist lengthwise pulling tension.
And I'll happily tug away to try and confirm this. ;-)

SS
Title: Re: Another variation of the TackleClamp hitch.
Post by: X1 on January 29, 2013, 12:00:01 PM
And I'll happily tug away to try and confirm this. ;-)

  Nice ! Go on !  :)  Just try to tie the hitch the same way in both cases - i.e., pull each end with the same force to pre-tighten them, say 25 kg and 50 kg (?). I guess that TMCD pulls them with 75 kg, or even more, but we are interested in a hitch that will be tightened by the average person - not a 6 ft 6 in, 280 lb one !  :)
   I can not estimate the effects of the relative diameters of the rope and pole. I use 1/2 inch ropes and 3 inch tubes, but I do not have any idea about which would be a more representative to the average use pair of diameters...
Title: Re: Another variation of the TackleClamp hitch.
Post by: TMCD on January 29, 2013, 03:07:29 PM
I'm going to try later on this evening to see if I'm tying it or actually tightening it incorrectly. The Tackle Clamp Hitch has tons of MA, that much I gather and it is weird that I can move it up and down the pole with what I would consider half of my strength and couldn't even budge the Pipe Hitch. I tie a Pipe Hitch very snug though, there's absolutely no seperation in my coils before I start to pull lengthwise on it...and as I mentioned before, a critical part of correctly tying a good Pipe Hitch is in the final stage when you tie the Clove Hitch or Cow Hitch to the Standing End. That Clove Hitch has to be jammed down on top of the pipe itself, seated snugly in the arrangement or you will get a bad result.
Title: Re: Another variation of the TackleClamp hitch.
Post by: X1 on January 29, 2013, 03:37:57 PM
you tie the Clove Hitch or Cow Hitch to the Standing End.

   The usual way of the Pipe hitch is to tie two half hitches at the one end of the "coil tube". However, I am sure that one can improve on this. I used to connect the Standing end to the tail by a simple-hitch-a-la-Gleipnir, but I could nt pull the ends against the pole with that locking mechanism...
   Could you, please, tie a multi-coils Clove hitch ( shown in the attached picture)(*), and a Pipe hitch, with the same number of wraps, tension them with the same force, and report your results ? In both of those hitches, the diagonal element prevents the adjacent individual round turms to revolve/slip the one relativelly to the other ( so this might be cinsidered as another way one can insert some pre-tensioning within them ), but I do not know in which of those two hitches this mechanism is more efficient.
   I see that you bite into this issue of friction gripping hitches !  :) I am sure we can settle any question about which is more efficient to withstand a lengthwise pull, by a few tests. ( And I have already declared what a lousy experimentalist I am, havent I ?  :))
   I have to mention that the TackleClamp hitch is not only a fine friction gripping hitch, but a powerful binding knot as well. That was the meaning of the "Clamp" in its name. It is much more tight than a single or a double Constrictor, which were considered the tightest hitches/binders we had till now.

*. One has to hang the load by both free ends of the Multi-coils Clove hitch, to exploit the tensioning of both the "upper" and the "lower" "coil tubes", and so have the better results.
Title: Re: Another variation of the TackleClamp hitch.
Post by: TMCD on January 29, 2013, 05:12:39 PM
I've always liked your Multi Coiled Clove Hitch...simple, easy and effective. I'll be back on here later, the rental house next door needs my plumber to fix it and my pole barn's calling.
Title: Re: Another variation of the TackleClamp hitch.
Post by: TMCD on January 30, 2013, 02:49:39 AM
I tied both, The Tackle Clamp Hitch and Well Pipe Hitch on a different type of pole today and got similar results. I'm stumped and I'm positive that I'm tying the TCH correctly, I get plenty of MA etc., but can still move it along the pole. I can't budge the WPH, maybe there's no answer here, I don't know.

For the record, I can't budge the Multi Wrap Clove Hitch.

Edit...I just noticed that I tie the Pipe Hitch differently than what's shown on you tube. The guy on you tube makes three or four complete turns and then brings the WE down and across the face of those coils and ties a Clove Hitch on the pipe directly next to them. I tie it the way Ashley shows it in his book, the WE ties to the SE using a Clove or Cow Hitch.
Title: Re: Another variation of the TackleClamp hitch.
Post by: X1 on January 30, 2013, 04:48:48 AM
but can still move it along the pole. I can't budge the WPH, maybe there's no answer here, I don't know.

We do not know, but that does not mean there is no answer !  :) And we will find it !
1. I suppose you pull each end of the TackleClamp hitch with the same force you pull the end(s) of the Well Pipe hitch. Can you be more specific on the estimated magnitude of this force ?
2. Do you pull both ends of the WPH before you connect the standing end to the tail by whatever hitch you have chosen to use ? ( Ashley. at ABoK#504, does not use a Clove hitch or a Cow hitch ! He uses two half hitches. ) If not, and you pre-tighten the WPH hitch by pulling only one end, which end do you pull before you connect it to the other?
3. Which end of the TackleClamp hitch do you pull, to submit it to the lengthwise pull ? If you place the pole vertically, and you pull the hitch downwards, do you pull it by the "upper" or the "lower" end ? I suppose that you do not pull it by both at the same time, od course, because they stem out of the pole at diametrically opposed points, so such a "balanced" pull would drag it alongside the pole much more easily.
4. What are the diameters of the rope and the pole you use ?
5. Is the rope you use able to be flattened a lot ( of a hollow single braid construction, for example ). A flattened rope can grip the pole more efficiently than a round one, and that may be something the WPH exploits, but the TavkleClamp hitch does not to the same degree.
6. Is the standing end of the WRH and the TackleClamp hitch parallel to the axis of the pole, when you submit them to the lengthwise pull ? We are not considering diagonal or perpendicular pulls here.
7. Are the multiple coils of the WPH and the TackleClamp hitch the one next to the other, in contact, when you load the hitches ? ( If they are not, this would mean that they were not as tight as they could be.)
8. A picture of the two hitches, just before they are pulled along the pole, would be most helpfull. We can spear a lot of blah blah with a single picture !

Title: Re: Another variation of the TackleClamp hitch.
Post by: X1 on January 30, 2013, 05:25:20 AM
   I would like to make a brief comment here, about something I have hinted in passing at another post. In a multi-wrap friction gripping hitch, a tensioned "diagonal element" that pushes the "higher" and the "lower" round turns towards each other ( and all the other in-between round turns in forced tight contact to each other ), can play a very important role. When the round turns are tightened, by a pre-tensioning action or by the loaded of the standing end itself during the lengthwise pull, the presence of this diagonal element will help to "lock" any tensile forces within the "coil tube" - because the adjacent "rings" of the round turns can not revolve the one relatively to its two neighbors - so it can not release its tension. ( This is a schematic description- there are no individual "rings" in the coil - but I hope it conveys the meaning of what I wish to say).
  At the Well Pipe hitch, as well as at the Multi-Wraps Clove, double Strangle and double Constrictor friction gripping hitches, this(those) diagonal element(s) can offer, in a limited degree, the same advantages of a "locking" mechanism of the standing ens and the tail, at a "tight" hitch. That element may enhance the effectiveness of the hitch, because, without adding more coils, it enhances the gripping power of the existing ones. I had tried to exploit this mechanism a little more, by the addition of a second and/or even a third diagonal element - they seem to keep the coils in contact, and they also push the embraced pair of ends that lie underneath them, so those ends are even better "locked" in their position, as "guardians" of the accumulated tensile forces within the "coil tube". (1)

1) See the pictures at a few relevant posts published at :
   http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3794.msg22241#msg22241
Title: Re: Another variation of the TackleClamp hitch.
Post by: X1 on January 30, 2013, 07:53:34 PM
If you need/want an easily re-positionable hitch then the well pipe hitch succeeds.

I get plenty of MA etc., but can still move it along the pole. I can't budge the WPH, maybe there's no answer here, I don't know.

   It occured to me that I can answer to those two interested readers, with one only post ... :)

   If -, I repeat, if... in the minute/remote, as a probability, but existing, as a possibility, case - TMCD had been loading the TackleClamp hitch by pulling both ends - those two ends stemming from two diametrically opposed points of a "balanced" hitch - he would have discovered an easy way to translate the hitch along the pole, and so re-position it easily, as SS369 demands...
   In fact, this might even be considered as a pottentially practical advantage of the (3,4) form of the TackleClamp hitch, the original (4,3) form had not : We can easily re-position it along a pole, without even touching it. If it is tied on the top of the mast, for example, or on any other inaccessible point ( beyond arm s length, or into a cavity, etc. ), we can still re-adjust its attachment point / re-position it, up and down the tube, pipe, mast, spar, etc., by just pulling it by both ends. We can attach our load hanging it from the one end, and just have an auxilliary rope attached on the other end, just in case we wish to hoist our hitch to a lower or a higher point in the future. We might even have 3 auxilliary ropes, so we can re-position the hitch sliding it downwards or upwards along the pole, using two pulleys attached at its distant end.
Title: Re: Another variation of the TackleClamp hitch.
Post by: TMCD on February 01, 2013, 03:18:50 AM
I did manage to tie the five or six turn version of this knot and couldn't budge it, but man is it fiddly to tie. It is a neat knot in the mechanical advantage that it creates and the smaller version which I can move for some reason, is a great binder knot, although fiddly to tie.
Title: Re: Another variation of the TackleClamp hitch.
Post by: X1 on February 01, 2013, 09:12:18 PM
the smaller version which I can move for some reason ... fiddly to tie.
   

   If you do not wish to lose some valuable time, to read and answer even a single one of the 8 points I have mentioned at Reply#42 (1), you will remain the only one that was able to tighten a 2 wrap Pipe hitch so tightly that it did not move, while, at the same time, an equally tightly tightened 3 / 4 wrap TackleClamp hitch did... I guess we will manage to survive with this enigma unsolved - after all, life would be so boring without some mysteries, would nt it ?  :)

  Although the TackleClamp hitch needs 3 tucks to be tied, I do not believe that it is a "fiddle" knot - because there is a symmetry, a repetitive pattern to its tying method as well as to its final form. Also, in the case of one accessible end of the pole, or two accessible ends of the rope, it can be tied much more easily, as shown at a previous post.

1.   http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4224.msg26281#msg26281
Title: KnotMaker drawing of TackleClamp hitch
Post by: X1 on February 01, 2013, 11:55:48 PM
   The latest version of KnotMaker, with many new useful functions, at :

   http://daveroot.netau.net/knotmaker/

   Download the program, then open the attached .km file with it.
   At the drawing, notice that the "black wave" goes "over" everything /everywhere , except of the two segments of the two U s ( the "blue" and the -inverted- "red" ) that kiss each other at the middle of the hitch. There, it goes "under". One has nothing else to pay attention to, except this.


Title: Re: Another variation of the TackleClamp hitch.
Post by: X1 on February 03, 2013, 06:33:19 PM
I feel that the load applied to the lower side (right side in my picture) allowed for the elongation and perhaps better resistance to the initial sliding.

   I have seen that, when the hitch is not tightened to the maximum degree, or when it has been released just a little bit, the loading by the lower side is preferable, indeed. In this case, the rim of the higher round turn does not push the adjacent to it round turn, and then all the other lower round turns - and so it does not force them to to be inclined towards the same side. When the hitch is loaded by the lower side, the lower round turn will be inclined towards the one, the lower/right side, while the higher round turn will be inclined towards the other, the lower/left side. ( When the hitch is loaded by the higher side, all the round turns will be inclined towards the same side, the lower/left one ). I still feel that we should better load a maximally tightened hitch, or a hitch with more wraps, by the higher side - but I will not bet anything on this, while the tests are under way !   :)

And I'll happily tug away to try and confirm this. ;-)
Title: Re: Another variation of the TackleClamp hitch.
Post by: SS369 on February 03, 2013, 10:18:00 PM
I feel that the load applied to the lower side (right side in my picture) allowed for the elongation and perhaps better resistance to the initial sliding.

   I have seen that, when the hitch is not tightened to the maximum degree, or when it has been released just a little bit, the loading by the lower side is preferable, indeed. In this case, the rim of the higher round turn does not push the adjacent to it round turn, and then all the other lower round turns - and so it does not force them to to be inclined towards the same side. When the hitch is loaded by the lower side, the lower round turn will be inclined towards the one, the lower/right side, while the higher round turn will be inclined towards the other, the lower/left side. ( When the hitch is loaded by the higher side, all the round turns will be inclined towards the same side, the lower/left one ). I still feel that we should better load a maximally tightened hitch, or a hitch with more wraps, by the higher side - but I will not bet anything on this, while the tests are under way !   :)

And I'll happily tug away to try and confirm this. ;-)

And I have tugged happily and it has reaffirmed my opinion that the better leg to pull for lengthwise resistance is the lower leg as it is oriented in the picture I posted.

I have loaded it the maximum my strength can barehanded, using the paracord again and 6mm accessory cord. The increased elasticity of the paracord, I believe, aides in the functioning of this clamping hitch.
The 6mm cord wasn't suitable for the smaller diameter pipe, but worked well on the next size I had, being 1-5/16 inches outside diameter.

Pulling the upper leg can induce movement of the entire structure along the pipe surface, whereas the lower leg does not. It only elongates the coils and acts like other gripping hitches, e.g., KC hitch and rat tailed stopper, etc., in the cords I have tried it with.
To me this is a plus, not a detriment.

If it were other than very slick surfaces, this simpler variation would be locked in place, because it will deform the material it is tied around due to the mechanical advantage it develops.

SS
Title: Re: Another variation of the TackleClamp hitch.
Post by: TMCD on February 03, 2013, 11:08:38 PM
SS,
Can you move the smaller version, 4/3 wrap with your bare hands like I can? I went to the 5/6 wrap version and couldn't budge it but can move the 4/3 every time and I'm quite confident I'm tying it and tightening it correctly...it does have tons of Mechanical Advantage. There's just not enough meat in Xarax's smaller version, or at least not enough to stop me from pulling it up and down. 

It could be that the combination I'm using, paracord/slippery wooden pole, the 4/3 just can't grip on the polyurethaned wooden surface. The Pipe Hitch, Icicle Hitch and others grip every time, even with low numbers of wraps.
Title: Re: Another variation of the TackleClamp hitch.
Post by: X1 on February 04, 2013, 12:23:39 AM
the 4/3 just can't grip on the polyurethaned wooden surface.

   I guess you mean the (3,4) TackleClamp hitch ( the version presented in this thread ), and not the (4,3) one ( presented at (1)).
   I had never thought that the (3,4) version would be the "knot of choice" for a hitch able to withstand a lengthwise pull around a very slippery pole! I had presented this version with the minimum number of wraps (3,4), just to show how it is tied. If I am going to pull a really slippery pole, I would go at least to (5,6), and, if the load is heavy, to (7,8) - as we do with the Pipe hitch. The same is true for the Double Cow hitch. I prefer to use its 6 wrap version, although I had mostly shown the 4 wraps one. 
   I repeat that the TackleClamp family of hitches, has been an attempt to improve on the simple-hitch-a-la-Gleipnir multi-wrap hitch (2) - and the various "tight" hitches presented at (3). However, most probably it will be used as a binding knot - as the single or double Strangle and Constrictor knots, or the beautiful Dan Lehman s S binder (4). The simpler, very easy to remember and to tie 6 wrap Double Cow hitch (5), would be adequate for most "tight" hitches application, I guess.

1.  http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3813.0
2   http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=2075.msg16893#msg16893
3   http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3794.msg22241#msg22248
     http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3794.msg22241#msg22241
     http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3794.msg22252#msg22252
4   http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1451.msg10074#msg10074
5   http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4035.msg25143#msg25143
Title: Re: Another variation of the TackleClamp hitch.
Post by: X1 on February 04, 2013, 12:54:22 AM
the next size I had, being 1 5/16 inches outside diameter.

   I had never tested this hitch around such a small diameter pole !  :)  I prefer bigger ones ( usually, the 3 inch tubes shown at the pictures),  because it is much easier to be tied there with the 1/2 inch climbing ropes I use - and because I believe that, given more rope length wrapped into its "coil tube", it can be easier/safer to it to accumulate strong tensile forces inserted during the pre-loading phase, without them being able to "escape" through the "locked" ends.
   Thank you very much, SS369. Now, please, take a deep breath, and test the (5,6) version !  :) Then, compare it to the 6 wrap Double Cow hitch, for the same purpose ( lengthwise pull ). The Double Cow hitch can be loaded by both ends, which might offer an advantage - the two "coil tubes" there would be tightened more evenly, so they might grip the surface of the pole more efficiently - although their round turns can not tightened as much as the round turns of a genuine TackleClamp hitch.
Title: Re: Another variation of the TackleClamp hitch.
Post by: TMCD on February 04, 2013, 02:17:06 AM
You're correct X, the 3/4 wrap is the one I can move up and down, the 5/6 I can't budge but it's a little tricky for me to tie. I'll learn it though because I sit around in the winter time and fiddle with my paracord/painters pole all day, especially if I'm not doing much. I sometimes walk around with cordage in my pockets, am I the only one on here that does that?

BTW, I need to learn that Double Cow version, it looks neat....and I agree 100%, these knots are excellent binding knots....the 3/4 wrap is an awesome little binder.
Title: Re: Another variation of the TackleClamp hitch.
Post by: X1 on February 04, 2013, 03:40:16 AM
I sometimes walk around with cordage in my pockets... am I the only one on here that does that?

   Nooo !  :) :) :)

   Just another "mnemonic" to tie the (3,4) TackleClamp hitch, when there is one end of the pole available ( so we can tie it like the Pile hitch). Follow the attached pictures, and the instructions :

1-. Start from a shape "8" form. Now you have two bights - wraps.
2-. Pass the two ends from below, through those two initial bights, to form two more. Now you have all the 4 bights - wraps.
3-. Twist the bights you have formed at the first step, both counter-clock wise ( if you see left bight from the left side of the knot, and the right bight from the right side of the knot ). Now you have all the 4 bights - wraps, in their correct final orientation regarding the penetrating pole.
4-. Arrange the two ends "over" the rest of the knot, as shown at the picture, so that the lower one becomes the left side end, and points upwards, and the upper side one becomes the right side end, and points downwards. Penetrate the hitch with the accessible end of the pole, through the path shown with the red line.

   P.S. The most simple pictures to illustrate how to tie the Double Cow, are the third and the fourth, shown at the Reply# 5 :
   http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4035.msg24345#msg24345
   Just two common, single Cow hitches, the one next to the other. The only thing one has to notice, is the path of their shared second leg ( because it has to "lock" the two standing ends ).
Title: Re: Another variation of the TackleClamp hitch.
Post by: TMCD on February 04, 2013, 05:09:25 AM
Very interesting X, your knotting mind is very fertile and I'm almost embarrassed to report that yes, I mastered the Double Cow and it does generate lots of MA. 

Please keep posting your newbies, you have a clever and innovative mind for knotting matters...I can at least report that I like/love to learn these knots.
Title: Re: Another variation of the TackleClamp hitch.
Post by: xarax on August 05, 2014, 07:09:37 AM
   Recent drawings of the TackleClamp hitch, made possible by the latest version of KnotMaker, which is to be published soon.
Title: Re: Another variation of the TackleClamp hitch.
Post by: xarax on June 24, 2015, 12:54:43 PM
   I tied and pre-tightened as hard as I could ( with my bare hands ) the (3,4) TackleClamp hitch around a 75mm sleek PVC tube, I loaded it with my full body weight from its "lower" end, and then I started jumping / bouncing on a loop tied on this end. The hitch was elongated, its wraps were re-positioned obliquely in relation to the axis of the tube and they got slightly elliptical forms ( the lower wraps were elongated much more than the higher, as shown in the attached pictures ), but that was it. The hitch refused to slide downwards any more. I reckon that, tied on this material, wrapped around such a slippery surface, and pre-tightened as much, it could withstand a 150kg lengthwise pull - but for a heavier load, and ceteris paribus, I guess that even this most tight hitch would require another full wrap at its middle ( so it would become a (4,5) wrap TackleClamp hitch ). The pre-tightening of the wraps is a means to increase the efficiency of the existing number of wraps of a multi-wrap gripping hitch, but it does not eliminate the need for even more wraps, when/if the load gets even heavier !
   Now, one may ask : With an even heavier load, why one would tie this hitch with (4,5) or (5,6) wraps, which is not easily or quickly tied and dressed, and not just two Double Cow hitches, with a sum of (4 + 4 = 8 ) wraps, the one next to the other ? Good question !  :) :) The Double Cow hitch is not as tight as the TackleClamp hitch, so we would need more wraps to hold the same lengthwise pull - but it is tied and dressed almost instantly (1), it can be untied with some difficulty but it can be untied nevertheless ( a not-slipped, tightly pre-tensioned TackleClamp hitch can not ! ), it is TIB, and, conceptually, it is a much simpler and familial knot.
   I can not predict what the average knot tyer would prefer : a gripping hitch with fewer wraps but not as easily tied and dressed, or a gripping hitch with more wraps, but as simply, easily and quickly tied as the Double Cow hitch. I do not use the knots I tie - I am not a knot-user !  :)   I am satisfied when I meet a knot which is, structurally, more efficient and secure than the others that consume about the same amount of material. If we do not care about that ( about the required ropelength of the knots ), I guess that any sufficiently convoluted knot can do any job : with a sufficiently large number of wraps, any gripping hitch can withstand any lengthwise loading - even if those wraps are not pre-tightened at all.

1. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=5212.0 (http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=5212.0)
Title: Re-tackled TackleClamp hitch
Post by: xarax on August 24, 2015, 05:38:11 PM
   A classic beauty.
Title: Re: Re-tackled TackleClamp hitch
Post by: Dan_Lehman on August 25, 2015, 09:09:48 PM
   A classic beauty.
Aesthetically, perhaps.
But for working, not so :
one will find specious "tightening" as the pull
will just move rope around the spar,
rather than tightening it in place
(insofar as one can do anything, with the considerable
friction of rope-on-rope!).

One needs to be circumspect vs. this specious tightening!
 :-\

--dl*
====
Title: Re: Re-tackled TackleClamp hitch
Post by: xarax on August 25, 2015, 10:05:45 PM
one will find specious "tightening" as the pull will just move rope around the spar, rather than tightening it in place

  I knew that this is what one would say, if he has not tied the knot enough times, or properly. ( However, you, especially, you should had known better, because you have seen this problem in your S-binder, and how it was solved in the TackleClamp hitch. ). Those "tackled" hitches may seem simple knots, when they have been "locked", but they should be handled with care, before that.
  Start from the position of the two tackled parts / four linked Us as close to each other as possible - but at the other side of the pole !  :) Remove the slack, and then start to pull the ends, perpendicularly to the pole, the one after the other. Gradually, the wraps will start to grip the pole, and their revolving around its axis / sliding on it will become hindered by the increased friction - and that, in its turn, will force the material consumed by the pulling to make them slide less but shrink more ( = shrink rather than slide ),  and so on. I am not sure you will even manage to make them approach each other as much as I did in the attached picture ( they will stop sliding/revolving and "finish" approaching each other before that ) - because I had to hang the pole by each end of the hitch, the one after the other, and step/jump on it with my full bouncing body weight, to achieve that ! :)
   If you look more carefully, you will see that this hitch is nothing but two Yoke hitches merged together. I suggest you first tie the Yoke hitch (1)( and at least a dozen times, because this two-wrap hitch, too, is not as "simple", in its tying, as it looks ), and only after you get the "feeling" of it ( and start to be able to anticipate correctly, with sufficient precision, how much it will "close" ), only then proceed to tie the re-tackled TackleClamp hitch shown here - properly, this time. 

1. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=5474.0
Title: Re: Another variation of the TackleClamp hitch.
Post by: xarax on September 05, 2015, 02:57:33 PM
   To minimize the danger ( which, nevertheless, always exists... ) the two parts of the original or of this re-tackled variation or the TackleClamp hitch will not "kiss" each other, and the hitch  "closes" before its wraps become as tightly gripping the pole as possible, one should be sure he removes any remaining slack from what I have called "initial configuration", shown in many pictures of this thread. The simplest in-the-ends tying method for both knots, is the one starting from a Clove hitch, shown at the pictures of Replies # 13 and #14. In the case of the re-tackled variation, one should add the "tackle" of the central wrap at the middle of the "bottom" side of the pole - everything else remains the same.
   http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4224.msg26058#msg26058
   http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4224.msg26059#msg26059
   Now, the re-tackled version has the advantage that the friction the one, each time, pulled end has to overcome before/while it distributes its tension to the other parts of the knot, is less : to reach the critical centre of the tackle, the continuations of the two ends travel a shorter path on the surface of the pole. However, there is a caveat in this :
   During the alternating pull of the ends against the pole, the two parts will seldom "slide" / "walk" exactly the same distance on the surface : Due to perhaps invisible different friction characteristics of points on the rope and points on the surface of the hitched object, the one part will start constricting the pole earlier/more than the other, so the crossing point of the corresponding wrap will start to "walk" slower/less. We can always equalize the distance of the tackle from the two crossing points, by pulling the one end more than the other, when we see that this other has stopped "walking" with the same pace, and becomes tight earlier/more than its twin.
   However, even if we manage to keep the tackle in the centre of the two crossing points of the side wraps ( as I always wish/try to do, and as it happens in the pictures of the tight knot in this and a previous post ), how do we know that those wraps are equally tensioned ? Simple : We do not ! :)  We will never be so lucky to have a perfectly symmetric knot, in geometrical and structural form. We can achieve the one or the other ideal, but not both : We can even pull out more material from the one end than from the other, and so adjust the tension of the side wraps, to the degree they are almost equal - but the central tackle will not be at the exact centre any more. Or, we can pull the two ends the amount required to ensure that the tackle remains at the centre of the distance separating the two crossing points of the side wraps, but then, most probably, the one wrap will become more tensioned than the other.
   I had not presented this form of the TackledClamp hitch as an alternative to the original one, but only as a "double Yoke hitch" - and my main purpose was to show the hitch the asymmetric Yoke hitch is half of. The original TackleClamp hitch is simpler and tight enough, and it has one less degree if freedom to adjust : one needs not pay attention to the visual and/or structural symmetry of the knot, which is always there : Regarding those characteristics, the TackleClamp hitch is self-adjusting, while its re-tackled variation is not.
Title: Re: Another variation of the TackleClamp hitch.
Post by: Knutern on September 06, 2015, 12:29:09 PM
Looks like a brillint hitch, this one. But even after I remove as much slack as possible, I can't avoid one eye grow while the other shrink. Could one call this "prematurely kiss"?  ;D
Maybee a very slick rope would perform better to that hitch?
Title: Re: Another variation of the TackleClamp hitch.
Post by: xarax on September 06, 2015, 12:47:15 PM
  But even after I remove as much slack as possible, I can't avoid one eye grow while the other shrink.

  Those "tight hitches" are meant to be tied around sleek poles, and on sleek ropes - otherwise any other hitch will do the same job.
   Perhaps you are tying it around a "thin" pole ( "thin", relatively to the diameter of the rope you use ) and the hitch is not offered enough time/space to grip, and "lock", before the two parts kiss each other. Also, when you see that the wrap the end you pull is directly connected with does not shrink as much as you expect/wish, but it is rotating more or less freely, stop and start pulling the other end. With proper, and careful, alternate pulling, you will achieve the optimum result for the rope/pole combination you use. Last but not least, remember that you have to pull the ends against the pole, that is, perpendicularly to the surface of the pole. If you pull them in an unfavourable tangential way, you may force the wraps to which they are directly connected to rotate, and "consume" the distance which separates the two crossing points, before themselves have the time/space to shrink, grip the pole, and start be tightened more than just be rotated.
   My advice is to start from the Yoke hitch, and after you acquire some experience on it, then you will start to be able to predict which of the wraps rotates more than it should, or which has already shrunk much more than the other, and it is time to equalize the tensions.
   In general, if the ordinary TackleClamp hitch locks before the "premature kiss", its tackled variation can be made to do the same - although this may require more attention.

P.S. The hitch you see in the pictures have been pre-tensioned using the pole itself as a level in a 3 : 1 mechanical advantage. and my full body weight - so each end is tensioned with about 200kg. I could nt make the two crossing points to move even one mm after this - and the flexible material of the rope has been transformed into a stiff wood, judging from the sounds it made. when I was scratching it ..:)