International Guild of Knot Tyers Forum

General => New Knot Investigations => Topic started by: IPAtch on December 11, 2012, 05:43:37 AM

Title: Eskimo Bowline on a Bight
Post by: IPAtch on December 11, 2012, 05:43:37 AM
While tying a double loop from ABOK last night, I got a little side tracked, thought I knew what to do next, and ended up with this. As you can see in the image with the loops together, it looks just like an Eskimo Bowline, but on a bight. After some time, I did figure out how to tie it on a bight, its actually not hard, but I didn't take pictures. I can post directions/pictures if anyone is interested. Tying it with an end is straight forward enough though.

The two loops communicate readily (if you pull one, that one lengthens while the other shortens) when the loops are splayed, but when pulled tight, the loops come together and lock.

I looked through ABOK, then online, and don't see much, even on the eskimo bowline. Anyone know anything? I feel like I must be missing it, it just seems too basic not to be out there.
Title: Re: Eskimo Bowline on a Bight
Post by: roo on December 11, 2012, 06:18:44 AM
While tying a double loop from ABOK last night, I got a little side tracked, thought I knew what to do next, and ended up with this. As you can see in the image with the loops together, it looks just like an Eskimo Bowline, but on a bight. After some time, I did figure out how to tie it on a bight, its actually not hard, but I didn't take pictures. I can post directions/pictures if anyone is interested. Tying it with an end is straight forward enough though.

The two loops communicate readily (if you pull one, that one lengthens while the other shortens) when the loops are splayed, but when pulled tight, the loops come together and lock.

I looked through ABOK, then online, and don't see much, even on the eskimo bowline. Anyone know anything? I feel like I must be missing it, it just seems too basic not to be out there.
Interesting.  The name is appropriate.  Upon reverse-engineering the structure, I'm beginning to wonder if there really is an easy on the bight method of tying this that would prevent it from being a by-a-diagram-only curiosity or puzzle.
Title: Re: Eskimo Bowline on a Bight
Post by: IPAtch on December 12, 2012, 01:52:34 AM
Took photos today so here are the instructions.

Start with the running cows hitch, twist it so you get a loop in the standing part of the line, then pull the cross-member of the cows hitch (the only part that isn't doubled) down and around the loops, then pull tight.  Pretty easy.
Title: Re: Eskimo Bowline on a Bight
Post by: X1 on December 12, 2012, 06:08:56 PM
You've offered on a silver platter the opportunity for my tremendous ;D(and pusillanimous :-[)revenge!(ABOK #1126, page 205)

   Thank you, Luca. Mea culpa (my fault), IPAtch.

   Luca, keep reading and editing all my threads, and I will offer you MANY such opportunities !   :)
   Believe it or not, I had not realized that the knot was TIB ! That makes it an even more interesting double loop.
Title: Re: Eskimo Bowline on a Bight
Post by: Luca on December 12, 2012, 06:20:03 PM
Believe it or not, I had not realized that the knot was TIB ! That makes it an even more interesting double loop.

I believe it, because if I had not had a chance to view the page of Ashley, I would not have even imagined that this noose could be TIB!
Title: Re: Eskimo Bowline on a Bight
Post by: alpineer on December 12, 2012, 06:38:47 PM
Nice job IPAtch. Thankyou.
Green Flash, Ballast Point... [San Diego IPA's are the best].
alpineer
Title: Re: Eskimo Bowline on a Bight
Post by: roo on December 12, 2012, 06:44:44 PM
Took photos today so here are the instructions.

Start with the running cows hitch, twist it so you get a loop in the standing part of the line, then pull the cross-member of the cows hitch (the only part that isn't doubled) down and around the loops, then pull tight.  Pretty easy.
Thanks for the steps.  I'd still wonder if there's a more fail-safe method of tying, but I'll leave that aside for right now.

I found a flaw with this double loop.  When pulling on one standing part and one loop, the unloaded loop shrank.  That material was being fed to the standing part under load.   The shrinking loop was associated with the upper coil.
Title: Re: Eskimo Bowline on a Bight
Post by: X1 on December 12, 2012, 06:49:50 PM
   A somehow relared TIB bowline ( I am sure that Luca will discover it somewhere, so I call it "Luca s TIB bowline ".  :)
Title: Re: Eskimo Bowline on a Bight
Post by: Luca on December 12, 2012, 11:21:59 PM
   A somehow relared TIB bowline ( I am sure that Luca will discover it somewhere, so I call it "Luca s TIB bowline ".  :)

X1! But,of course,everyone knows that this is nothing more than an ordinary  Yosemite version of a loop version of the fig.8 bend for cables and wires!

http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3716.msg21487#msg21487

No OK, I really do not think I've ever seen, and I'm a bit embarrassed,because now there is a knot that bears my name, and I do not even know well how to tie it on the bight!(I have seen that this can be done, but as say roo,I have not found an easy/memorable method for this loop;however, a method that I personally use to determine if a knot can be TIB,starting from a knot already done, is merely to try to untie it without use the ends of the rope,trying to run in the reverse order of when running the knot starting from zero)


I found a flaw with this double loop.  When pulling on one standing part and one loop, the unloaded loop shrank.  That material was being fed to the standing part under load.   The shrinking loop was associated with the upper coil.

roo(hi),this is true, but a similar issue also affects the well known Bowline on the bight.
Title: Re: Eskimo Bowline on a Bight
Post by: X1 on December 13, 2012, 12:19:25 AM
now there is a knot that bears my name, and I do not even know well how to tie it [in] the bight

   Well, that is a revenge !  :) :)
   Keep trying !  :) ( I had offered you a hint with this "somehow".... Use it.

( Of course, everyone knows that this in nothing more than an ordinary bowline with a fig.8 collar...  :) )
One can dress it in a number of ways, but I think the shown one is the more secure. )
Title: Re: Eskimo Bowline on a Bight
Post by: Luca on December 13, 2012, 02:17:06 AM
Well, that is a revenge !  :) :)
 Keep trying !  :) ( I had offered you a hint with this "somehow".... Use it.
You have defeated me again![I'll try to solve the puzzle(for a memorable method)], but .. you are able with the Yosemite bowline?(I do not, it will be another puzzle for me ..)

( Of course, everyone knows that this in nothing more than an ordinary bowline with a fig.8 collar...  :) )

I prefer to stay in my opinion jokingly referred above,also because (in this case)I do not understand the meaning of "fig.8 collar"(which in this loop,to me resembles a"bight-like"collar(or,maybe,in this case,a"loop-like"collar),as happens in the standard bowline,while it goes around the SPart), maybe,about this loop,I can understand something similar to"incomplete double fig.8's nub"!

                                                                                                          Bye!

P.S. Really if I can not solve the riddle you not will reveal the solution? Please do not punish me!Be magnanimous, despite my excesses..I give up!
 
                                                                                                     

   


Title: Re: Eskimo Bowline on a Bight
Post by: X1 on December 13, 2012, 03:14:39 AM
the meaning of "fig.8 collar

  I used the word "collar" in place of the more accurate "collar structure". In bowline-like (PET) loops, whatever is tiable-tied ante (before) the eye is the "nippimg structure", because it nips the tail so it remains attached to the standing part. Whatever is tiable-tied post (after) the eye, is the "collar structure" , because it helps the balance of the nipping structure ( so it remains "closed", and does not open up and degenerate into an helix ) - usually with the help of a collar. So, if you see what is not the nipping structure, the nipping loop, you will see what is the collar structure, the collar... :)

I give up!


   Not sooo easy ! :)
   I gave the hint "somehow" to indicate that you should tie your TIB loop starting from the TIB ABoK#1126... like the Eskimo bowline on the bight presented in this thread.   
Title: Re: Eskimo Bowline on a Bight
Post by: Luca on December 13, 2012, 05:41:40 PM
Solved!(Thanks for the hint)
Often the simplest solution is right under the nose and one can not see it!
This(MY! ;))loop is exactly the same of ABOK # 1126:simply grab the Cow hitch's loop that is closest to the double noose, and let that the double noose shrinks around one of the legs of the fixed loop that in the meantime is magically formed(just 1 second!),by pulling on the SParts.The other loop of the original Cow hitch becomes the collar(or a part of the collar:I think I understand what you mean with your words about it, because,in fact,tying this loop using the end (and using the "right" Spart), what appears to be a doubling of the nipping loop, is actually an extension of the collar)of the fixed loop(which yes, you're right, it's a Bowline:you think that I noticed this only when I started to try to do the same trick with the Yosemite, realizing only at that time that it is actually the same knot!Wath a shame! :-[).

                                                                                                                 Bye! 
Title: Re: Eskimo Bowline on a Bight
Post by: X1 on December 13, 2012, 06:35:55 PM
   Yes, but you should better present this sequence of moves with pictures or simple drawings, so it would be much easier to somebody that is not already familiar with your knot, to understand it. See the nice pictures by IPAtch, how mush easier were able to explain the same thing that were previously had to be described by words. 4 pictures do the same job, and sometimes much better, than MANY words !  :)
   I do not understand why we should accompany our voice with a picture, and not our knot !  Oh, I fotgot it, you do not have a cell phone... !  :)
   Generally, it very difficult to realize, just by looking at one knot, if it is topologically equivalent to another, or not. This is also happening with the TIB or the non-TIB knots - the human brain can not perform mentally the nessesary sequence of "Reidemeister moves" that transform the TIB knot to the topologically equivalent unknot.
   
Title: Re: Eskimo Bowline on a Bight
Post by: alanleeknots on December 14, 2012, 06:23:32 PM
Hi All,
I have a loop here able to transform to IPAtch's loop and reverse back to zero.
I have hard time to follow using wording describe knotting matter.   have some picture of the knots, will make life easy.

Thanks,    alan lee
Title: Re: Eskimo Bowline on a Bight
Post by: X1 on December 14, 2012, 07:28:54 PM
   Awesome ! I would never had suspected that the loop at the left first picture is TIB !  So, this made (my) life a little less easy !  :)
Title: Re: Eskimo Bowline on a Bight
Post by: IPAtch on December 15, 2012, 01:34:59 AM
Eric22: Very cool, I think using photos was the right idea, but i will take a stap at putting the transformation into words. From the eskimo bowline on a bight, capsize the turn, then bring the loop up (or down in the images you posted) over the standing part of the line, then draw tight. I will check it out tonight, at first glance it looks like a loop made from a marlinspike hitch on a bight

Alpineer: Thanks, and totally agree, I have spent many evenings at the Ballast Point tasting rooms.

Roo: About the flaw, I was not able to produce it (4 mil accessory cord) until I got out thicker rope (a 6 mil retired static climbing anchor) and it happened immediately. However, if I dressed then set the knot, I couldn't get it to feed. I tested and got almost the same results with a bowline on the bight, just like Luca said.

X1: I really like the Luca TIB Bowline, the loop seems to just appear out of a running cows hitch.

Thanks for everyone's input
Title: Re: Eskimo Bowline on a Bight
Post by: Luca on December 16, 2012, 01:38:27 AM
Hi to all,

IPAtch,thanks you(late)for sharing this product of your ingenuity, which I had never seen,and that,personally,right away very intrigued me for the method and for his analogy(or omology?Dunno!) with the Bowline in the bight, with regard of the respective simple version(s)of the two knots.Perhaps the Inuit / Eskimo Bowline on (or in) the bight is a knot a little more difficult to make than the common Bowline in the bight, but still remains open the question(at least for me)of which of the two knots is safer!

Alan, I want to finally take this opportunity to tell you that I follow your videos on Youtube since Christmas last year (i love the Kung Fu method for the Bowline, also because, thanks to this method "almost in the bight", I found that there is no need to untuck the tail of a bowline to transform a common bowline in a Dutch / Cowboy bowline and vice versa ...), some of which are very beautiful, while all the others... are very amazing!...I love your videos,and I love your knots in this forum!
With regard to the sequence of steps that you posted in this thread, well ... amazing for me!+1  X1 awesome,and+1 IPAtch very cool : after at least two hours of "easy life", I have not only realized your knot (I did the opposite route, starting from zero,and then vice versa), but I also realized that, as far as I'm concerned, you've given to me the best "in the bight knotting exploration" of my life!

X1, there is a knot that bears my name, so I understand that I have a responsibility, which, within the limits of my ability, I will try to honor: so here is an explanation of how to run my/our/I guess more than anything else your,but especially of anyone/everyone(I know you agree with this)Luca s TIB bowline, accompanied by some pictures:

1: Starting from Abok # 1126, grab the loop of the Cow hitch component around the standing ends that is closest to the double noose(coloured in red),and pull it in the way as indicated by the big arrow in the first picture, so as to shorten the noose adjacent to it(even in red), until  it does adheres around the leg of the loop (in green in the second picture)which in the meantime has been formed,i.e.the leg that is adjacent to the loop of the original cow hitch that is closest to the standing parts.
2:The green loop in the second picture will be the fixed single loop:now just grab the standing part colured in red in the second picture, and pull it as indicated  by the big arrow so as to shorten the other noose until it  adheres around the first nipping component  previously adhered around the leg according to step 1.
3: Done! Now is colored in green also the portion of the rope that has been moved during step 2; note that the portions of rope that are coloured in blue during all three steps(because of the schematic nature of drawings, and also because of the schematic nature of the method explained here:but it is obvious that one can adjust the things as desired in the reality) does not have moved.(O.K., I know, the explanation is very bad)
For convenience and a proper realistic dressing and setting,here the link to the images of the post by X1 (better, right?):

http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4168.msg25388#msg25388

Note that this knot, appropriately dressed and setted, is exactly the same of a Yosemite bowline,i.e. this is a real single loop Bowline in the bight!

                                                                                                                    Bye!

(http://)
Title: Re: Eskimo Bowline on a Bight
Post by: kd8eeh on December 16, 2012, 01:44:47 AM
Looking at the beginning of this eskimo bowline, I found a similar knot that is also TIB, and forms an adjustable loop, like a taught line hitch.  It's a bit awkward to tie, and very awkward to untie, but as long as we are on this subject, I figure it might be helpful to those using this as a reference.

The knot is essentially the beginning of this knot, using a pursik instead of a cow hitch.  Note either both loops must be loaded, or only the loop attached to the top of the hitch.
Title: Re: Eskimo Bowline on a Bight
Post by: X1 on December 16, 2012, 03:37:26 AM
   I believe that this is the simplest ( and most easy, indeed ) method of tying the Luca TIB bowline starting from ABoK#1126. The 3 pictures are telling, I had not felt any need to read the text. :)  And I think that even the black arrows and the little black loops (used by Ashley for something else) are not needed, either. 
Title: Re: Eskimo Bowline on a Bight
Post by: kd8eeh on December 16, 2012, 05:52:46 AM
This knot is somewhat noteworthy compared to luca's bowline.  It is the same knot, the the tails become the loop and the loop becomes the tails.  It is also TIB, and much simpler to tie, but it really only has three loaded strands and a tail, in that sense it is only useful if you are only pulling on one end.  Still, it is noteworthy.  Also, it strongly resembles an inline figure 8 loop.
Title: Re: Eskimo Bowline on a Bight
Post by: IPAtch on December 16, 2012, 10:33:18 PM
Eric22: I have rearranged the transformation (did you have a name for it?) you made to illustrate the differences between it and the eskimo bowline on a bight (ebob). The one on the left is the ebob, the one on the right is yours.

I was surprised it became so clear. To reproduce this, start with either knot, then start turning the knot inside out until you get to an overhand knot in the standing part. I might go through the series of these loops and compare the differences when laid out in this format. Maybe we will come up with a few more. Thanks for the inspiration!
Title: Re: Eskimo Bowline on a Bight
Post by: alanleeknots on December 17, 2012, 03:44:58 AM
Hi All,

Thanks everyone's comments, I have 3 more variations here ,it seem like ok to me, they all can reverse to zero, just so busy working don't have time to do the reverse sequence in picture.
So i just post it for now, i will get back to it if you guys think this loops are alright.

Thanks   alan lee.
Title: Re: Eskimo Bowline on a Bight
Post by: kd8eeh on December 17, 2012, 04:04:37 AM
In regards to Luca's bowline, I found a double loop variation of this, as well as another way to tie it which I like for the fact that it is easier when trying to tie the knot with a large loop.

My pictures of this method probably aren't terribly clear.  From the second to the third you pull the strand in the loop that won't slide and have it pull the standing parts through.  From the third to the fourth is just a twist, and redressing the knot.
Title: Re: Eskimo Bowline on a Bight
Post by: X1 on December 17, 2012, 04:29:38 AM
   Alan Lee and kd8eeh, your knots and your pictures are excellent ! My only suggestion is to try to remain to knots reasonably complex, because I am afraid that this manipulation of the entangled bights can go for ever... and generate knots that would resemble puzzles more than tools.
Title: Re: Eskimo Bowline on a Bight
Post by: kd8eeh on December 17, 2012, 05:17:11 AM
   Alan Lee and kd8eeh, your knots and your pictures are excellent ! My only suggestion is to try to remain to knots reasonably complex, because I am afraid that this manipulation of the entangled bights can go for ever... and generate knots that would resemble puzzles more than tools.
What's wrong with puzzles? :)
Title: Re: Eskimo Bowline on a Bight
Post by: X1 on December 17, 2012, 05:21:38 AM
What's wrong with puzzles? :)

Nothing - except that some people may argue they belong to the "Fancy" knots section... :)
Title: Re: Eskimo Bowline on a Bight
Post by: Luca on December 18, 2012, 02:01:26 AM
Hi to all,

Fumbling with the splendid sequence posted by Alan Lee, I realized that he has given us also a method for the Luca s TIB bowline,that, with a little practice, makes the knot discreetly fast to execute;I tried to execute a step-by-step drawning:for me it was more difficult than I thought,also because I have complicated my life with my own hands, and the result does not do justice to the real simplicity of the method.There are some"conceptual"mistakes,I guess,but the patterns should be substantially correct (I hope).The first two steps are the same(mirror versions) as the last two steps of the sequence by Alan Lee(second picture):

http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4168.msg25423#msg25423
 
it is just overthrow down and back the appropriate leg of the bight (what appears to be pinned with the pin in the penultimate step in the picture by Alan)and then pull the other leg so that the other shrink to form the collar.

                                                                                                           Bye!

(http://)
Title: Re: Eskimo Bowline on a Bight
Post by: X1 on December 19, 2012, 09:31:52 PM
   I have a dream...That somebody collects all the TIB single and double loops we know...and then post pictures of any one of them being transformed to any one else, by a proper series of moves.
   Could you do it for us, Luca ? It would be a most useful thing, as a result, but also a most interesting pass-time, as an endeavour.
   
Title: Re: Eskimo Bowline on a Bight
Post by: Luca on December 21, 2012, 12:46:02 AM
Hi to all,

This knot is somewhat noteworthy compared to luca's bowline.  It is the same knot, the the tails become the loop and the loop becomes the tails.

Yes!This loop is ABOK #1057, but if you dress the Luca s TIB bowline(every time I write it is always a bit embarrassing for me ..)like a Yosemite-finished Bowline, then it is better that you take a look also at #1043!

I have a dream...

I too!

That somebody collects all the TIB single and double loops we know...

Great idea!

and then post pictures of any one of them being transformed to any one else, by a proper series of moves.

Would be fantastic!

Could you do it for us, Luca ?

No

It would be a most useful thing, as a result, but also a most interesting pass-time, as an endeavour.

Thanks, I'm glad because maybe you've enjoyed my little work;I am a little guy here,and I consider myself a friend of everyone here,so I like to consider me as a little friend of everyone here,then,automatically(and perhaps not only for this automaticity),I consider myself a little friend of X1...but unfortunately it happens that sometimes also the friends disappoint!...Perhaps you've found a good way by which I could achieve something constructive in this forum, but, sincerely and simply,I do not feel like!
If I say to you "yes", it would not be a pass-time,but a commitment,and I do not want that!
Since you have tickled my vanity by buckling my name to this single TIB bowline, so I spent to illustrate the above methods, and I'm very proud of the Dying Zebra method(in honor of what you write in this forum, and in honor of what you do write in this forum)that was inspired by Alan Lee,because, with a little practice, it is not discreetly fast as I wrote before,but is very fast, in fact!

                                                                                                           Bye!           

   

   

   
Title: Re: Eskimo Bowline on a Bight
Post by: X1 on December 21, 2012, 01:23:48 AM
   The (reasonably simple) TIB single and double loops, those we already know and those that we can/will find, are many, indeed - but not sooo many ! Dozens, but not hundreds... When one starts tying them, one by one, he will discover that he will soon learn to pass from the one to the other ( and then from every one to every other) with transformations similar to the ones we have seen in this thread, rather easily, and quickly. It might seem a huge mountain when seen from a distance, but a few steps towards it will show it is but a small hill. The interlocked overhand knot bends, for example, are many more, and their enumeration is much more difficult - and that is why it has not been achieved yet.
   Of course, it needs a systematic/exhaustive way of exploring things, so one will not miss something important in his way. I believe that Luca, as well as Alan Lee, have already done fine systematic work, and they can very well finish this job they had already started !  :)