International Guild of Knot Tyers Forum

General => Practical Knots => Topic started by: erizo1 on November 20, 2012, 06:46:14 AM

Title: What niche does a wrapping-type hitch fill?
Post by: erizo1 on November 20, 2012, 06:46:14 AM
I have a particular fascination with the category of hitches that includes the ground line, bag, snuggle, boom, etc. - I think there's something elegant and pleasing about them - but I'm not sure I can think of a practical reason I would ever prefer them to a slipped buntline or some similar hitch. They seem to use a lot of rope since they require multiple wraps around the object, and I don't get the impression from what I've read that even a boom hitch is any more secure than a slipped buntline or something similar.

I exclude from the knots I'm talking about the prusik and rolling hitch and other knots intended to resist a pull along the length of the object. I'm only referring to right-angle pull hitches that would be used in situations where a slipped buntline or gnat hitch or round turn and two half-hitches would serve. Is there a situation in which a wrapping-type hitch would be more suitable than another type? (And is there a better term to use in referring to wrapping-type hitches?)

As an aside, I think there's something delightfully funny about the spell check not recognizing "buntline" and "prusik."
Title: Re: What niche does a wrapping-type hitch fill?
Post by: Sweeney on November 20, 2012, 12:10:00 PM
but I'm not sure I can think of a practical reason I would ever prefer them to a slipped buntline or some similar hitch. They seem to use a lot of rope since they require multiple wraps around the object, and I don't get the impression from what I've read that even a boom hitch is any more secure than a slipped buntline or something similar.

Do they use a lot more rope? I have just tried a groundline hitch against a buntline hitch (not slipped). The result was that a groundline hitch consumed only 15% more rope than a buntline hitch with the same tail length. A slipped buntline depends on the size of the loop in the slipped end but is likely to be about the same as the groundline hitch or slightly more. ABOK 1674 uses the same rope length as a groundline (or any difference is so small as to insignificant).

A snug hitch of some sort has the advantage that the knot barely extends beyond the attachment point unlike 2 half hitches (whichever way they are tied). A slipped buntline may be more secure (though it can be hard to undo after a heavy load, slipped or not) but high security is unnecessary for say attaching a fender to the side rail of a boat or any application where the load is small. In these cases I agree - these are elegant hitches as well as practical.

Barry
Title: Re: What niche does a wrapping-type hitch fill?
Post by: X1 on November 20, 2012, 02:27:36 PM
   I believe there is no one-to-one correspondence between the number of different knots we have, and the number of different practical tasks dictate the use of a knot - and nor that it should be. Simple knots would exist even if there were no pre-existing practical need for them whatsoever, and we may even go as far as to invent a task to use them, and then to learn to live using them - as it is often the case with many human inventions.
   We tie the simple knots because, in a sense, they are there, in an abstract world which would have existed even if we were not. So we wish to tie all the possible simple knots that can exist - and then we may discover, or invent, a need for them. Otherwise we would have had only a very limited number of knots, of works of art, or ideas, etc. We are not only built by the world, we are also building it - and, very often, we tear it down...
   "...the practicality or impracticality of a knot can be too much stressed. History teaches us that sooner or later a purpose is discovered for everything that exists."
Title: Re: What niche does a wrapping-type hitch fill?
Post by: erizo1 on November 20, 2012, 03:54:07 PM
Do they use a lot more rope? I have just tried a groundline hitch against a buntline hitch (not slipped)....  A snug hitch of some sort has the advantage that the knot barely extends beyond the attachment point unlike 2 half hitches (whichever way they are tied).

Thanks, Barry. I guess it depends on how large the object you're hitching to is. A buntline will always use the same amount of rope, whereas a ground line or similar will use more rope the greater the diameter of the object.

I hadn't thought about how closely the wrapping-style hitches cling to the object. Are you able to think of a scenario in which this would be important? I expect that there is such a scenario, but I can't think of one.



   I believe there is no one-to-one correspondence between the number of different knots we have, and the number of different practical tasks dictate the use of a knot - and nor that it should be. Simple knots would exist even if there were no pre-existing practical need for them whatsoever, and we may even go as far as to invent a task to use them, and then to learn to live using them - as it is often the case with many human inventions.
   We tie the simple knots because, in a sense, they are there, in an abstract world which would have existed even if we were not. So we wish to tie all the possible simple knots that can exist - and then we may discover, or invent, a need for them. Otherwise we would have had only a very limited number of knots, of works of art, or ideas, etc. We are not only built by the world, we are also building it - and, very often, we tear it down...
   "...the practicality or impracticality of a knot can be too much stressed. History teaches us that sooner or later a purpose is discovered for everything that exists."

Thanks for your reply, X1. I agree with you, there are some knots I'll go out of my way to use just because I like them for one reason or another, even when they aren't the most practical. My question is not intended to imply that the practical value of a knot is the only reason for a knot to exist or for it to be used. I'm just trying to hone in on the practical application of these knots so I can appreciate whether they are sometimes a better tool for a given job than other kinds of hitches and keep an eye out for the situations in which that's the case. It's not the only question worth asking about these knots; it's just the particular question I have at the moment.
Title: Re: What niche does a wrapping-type hitch fill?
Post by: Sweeney on November 20, 2012, 04:45:02 PM
Thanks, Barry. I guess it depends on how large the object you're hitching to is. A buntline will always use the same amount of rope, whereas a ground line or similar will use more rope the greater the diameter of the object.

That's largely true but the snug hitches such as the groundline become less effective around a large object.

Quote
I hadn't thought about how closely the wrapping-style hitches cling to the object. Are you able to think of a scenario in which this would be important? I expect that there is such a scenario, but I can't think of one.

It's a lot easier to tie a snug hitch where the object being suspended hangs below the attachment point and though not heavy you have to support it while tying (such as the boat fender mentioned earlier) but aside from that the snug hitch looks a lot neater when appearance matters more than security. The second case would be attaching rope to rope at right angles - 2 half hitches are clumsy for this in commercial fishing applications - a slipped buntline could easily snag and come undone.  The end of a groundline hitch is often tucked back through the lay of the rope (Dan Lehman posted a number of pictures of hitches used like this eg http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1017.msg12426#msg12426 (http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1017.msg12426#msg12426)). One other application springs to mind (though in the case in point I remember using an anchor hitch variant) - hanging a new airing rack from pulleys in the ceiling. The attachment point needs to get as close as possible to the pulley. No doubt this is one of those occasions when a snug hitch is the obvious choice but only when the right problem presents itself.

Barry
Title: Re: What niche does a wrapping-type hitch fill?
Post by: X1 on November 20, 2012, 04:57:38 PM
the snug hitches such as the groundline become less effective around a large object.

Why ?
Title: Re: What niche does a wrapping-type hitch fill?
Post by: erizo1 on November 20, 2012, 05:03:34 PM
Awesome, thank you, Barry. I can't remember the specific situation now, but I do remember in the past hitching a rope to something and then wanting a minimal space between that attachment point and whatever else the rope was connected to; perfect moment to use a snug hitch, but I didn't know any at that time.

A follow-up question: can a snug hitch usually be slipped without affecting it's security? I'm thinking in particular of the ground line, bag, and snuggle hitches. I've looked at this in my own rudimentary way, and it seemed to me that slipped versions were okay in general, though the ground line seemed to lose a fair amount of security. I just learned the bag hitch, and I'm impressed by how much it seems to improve on the security of the ground line hitch. The sailor's hitch is also a new discovery for me, but I have already seen a slipped version of that referred to, and in trying it for myself, it seemed not to reduce the knot's security.
Title: Re: What niche does a wrapping-type hitch fill?
Post by: Sweeney on November 20, 2012, 06:42:31 PM
the snug hitches such as the groundline become less effective around a large object.

Why ?

I find that a groundline hitch around a large diameter object will loosen if tension is released then slip when tension is reapplied.

A follow-up question: can a snug hitch usually be slipped without affecting it's security?

You can slip a groundline or other snug hitch but they're usually easy to undo and if slipped then subject to a very heavy load the fact that it's slipped may not help much. Slipped knots are fine for a "quick getaway" but tie a slipped buntline in say 6mm accessory cord and swing on it and you could find that the slipped end loop is actually very difficult to pull through.

Barry
Title: Re: What niche does a wrapping-type hitch fill?
Post by: X1 on November 20, 2012, 07:33:54 PM
a groundline hitch around a large diameter object will loosen if tension is released then slip when tension is reapplied.

   That is the description of a something that happens, the effect. I am asking a question for the reason, the cause. Why is this happening ?
   The tension of the riding turn(s) of a snug hitch is not depending upon the diameter of the object. If we have tensioned two snag hitches to the same degree, the first tied around a smaller diameter object and the second around a larger diameter object, their riding turns will constrict the movement of their tails to the same degree. So, if the tension is released, they will loosened at the same, to the same degree, isn't it that so ? 
Title: Re: What niche does a wrapping-type hitch fill?
Post by: Sweeney on November 20, 2012, 08:10:06 PM
In theory they should loosen in the same way but I have just tried a simple experiment with 2 widely different tubes. When tension is applied to the groundline hitch around the larger tube the space which opens up between the tube and the actual knot is large enough to markedly reduce the nipping effect - around the smaller tube there is still some space but it is too small to allow the cord (5mm nylon) to loosen as much. No matter how much slack is taken out of the knot there is still this triangular gap appearing as soon as tension is applied.

I think that there is a fixed relationship between diameter of the cord and diameter of the pole, tube etc such that thin cord around a wide pole leaves an opening large enough to render the nip ineffective. As the cord increases and/or the pole decreases this gap which affects the nip becomes smaller. Any lessening of tension allows the rope to relax and when retensioned this gap becomes larger. Or so it seems.

Barry
Title: Re: What niche does a wrapping-type hitch fill?
Post by: X1 on November 20, 2012, 09:31:46 PM
the space which opens up between the tube and the actual knot

  You mean the space between the surface of the tube and the rope of the riding turn(s) ? This is depending upon the diameter of the rope, not of the tube.

this triangular gap

   The height of the triangle is depending upon the diameter of the tail, of the rope. However, the base of the triangle is larger for a larger diameter tube - so, if you mean this, you are right. It is not the area of the triangular gap that matters, but the angle of its sides with its base. In a smaller diameter tube, these angles are greater, so the tail is squeezed upon the surface of the tube by the riding turn(s) harder : the tension within the riding turn might be the same, but it is nipping the tail(s) more effectively when it is wrapped around a smaller diameter tube.
   Do you mean this effect ? I , too, have seen something like this -even more pronounced - in the case of the simple-hitch-a-la-Gleipnir.

thin cord around a wide pole leaves an opening large enough to render the nip ineffective. As the cord increases and/or the pole decreases this gap which affects the nip becomes smaller.

   So, I think that it is the shape, not the size of the gap that matters - and it is the reason behind the observed differences.
Title: Re: What niche does a wrapping-type hitch fill?
Post by: knot4u on November 20, 2012, 09:59:25 PM
Responding to the original post, there's something to be said about elegance.  For any kind of system, the more elegant solution is usually the better solution, aesthetically and practically.  That goes for hitches, electrical circuits, a surgeon's stitches, plumbing, bikes, cars, bridges, etc.  Elegance is a mark of professionalism and pride, while big and sloppy are marks of amateurism.  Elegance separates the gentlemen from the boys.

If I'm hitching to a tubular object, I'm more likely to use a wrap-type hitch because they're more elegant than a noose-type hitch like a Slipped Buntline or a Gnat.  More importantly, a wrap-type hitch is much less susceptible to tampering compared to a Slipped Buntline (or any hitch that requires a slip).  Consider the Timber for example.  I bring this hitch up because nobody mentioned it and because it's a hybrid between a wrap and a noose.  I have some ropes in my garage that are under tension in some exercise equipment I invented.  Some of the rope systems are anchored with Timbers.  Where a Timber is viable, it is absolutely exquisite compared to a Slipped Buntline.  While under tension, a Timber is virtually impossible to loosen by tampering, and is super easy to untie after the tension is released. Also, a Timber sits snug and neat against the object.  In a word, a Timber is more "elegant" than a Slipped Buntline or a Gnat, etc.  Other wrap-type hitches are more elegant in their own way as well (e.g., a Sailor's ease of untying is pure joy).

Regarding the Gnat, this is perhaps the most elegant noose-type hitch.  It's small, doesn't require a slip, is tie-able on many different object shapes, and is difficult to jam.  If I need a noose-type hitch, I tend to think of a Gnat first and then move down the list from there.

Regarding the Slipped Buntline, this hitch is for when all else fails.  It's like a nuclear bomb.  It's not pretty.  It's big.  I don't like how it requires a slip.  HOWEVER, it just works on almost everything.  Heck, a Buntline almost works as a fishing knot.  (I said almost.)  By the way, I would tie a Buntline (non-slipped) only if I wanted a hitch to be permanent.  Outside of fishing, a permanent hitch is something I rarely (or never) have needed, but I can think of at least one application.  When I was in Jamaica, workers would tie buoys to anchors on land.  They would tie a bend to connect the buoy's rope to a permanently hitched rope, which they would just leave there on the beach when not in use.  That's a situation where I'd want the rope on land to be jammed to help prevent it from walking off.

This is a great thread topic.  I went through this exercise awhile ago when I was organizing hitches in my head.  Note, it's difficult to talk broadly about these hitches because each has their own characteristics.
Title: Re: What niche does a wrapping-type hitch fill?
Post by: X1 on November 20, 2012, 10:16:12 PM
... there's something to be said about elegance.  For any kind of system, the more elegant solution is usually the better solution, aesthetically and practically.

   I agree (!). Elegance matters.

Regarding the Gnat, this is perhaps the most elegant noose-type hitch.

   However, elegance of the Gnat is almost a contradiction in terms !  :)  Not so much because of the Gnat - a not-so-bad knot, but nothing special / notable ...- but because of the shape of its nipping structure. As I had tried to say at (1), any overhand-knot-like shape is not elegant, it is ugly ! :)
" ... the overhand knot itself is an ugly knot ! I know that this statement would sound odd or incomprehensible to "pure" practical knot tyers, but it is true.         
   Compare the tight overhand knot to the fig.8 knot, or to the overhand knot itself in its loose fig.8-like fluid form. I do not wish to imagine how the world would look like if the living things, in general, and the humans, in particular, had such a form..."

   On the contrary, the fig.8-knot-like shape is elegant, and a really elegant noose hitch based on it is presented at (2) and (3) ( see the attached pictures ).   

1.   http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4084.msg24517#msg24517
2.   http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3133
3.   http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3020.msg21738#msg21738
Title: Re: What niche does a wrapping-type hitch fill?
Post by: TMCD on November 21, 2012, 01:02:28 AM
I'm not getting into what niche they serve but IMO, ABoK 1244 is about the best of the so called Miller's Knots. ABoK 1244 can be tied in the bight, unlike most other Miller's Knots.

I'm a painter by trade and I constantly climb extension ladders with a paint pot/rope attached. When you get to the top of the ladder you need to tie off the paint pot to one of the ladder rungs. If you don't tie it off, you're forced to try and hold onto the pot, not really a safe way to paint. I've found in this situation I'm better served with ABoK 1244 rather than tying off with two half hitches. It's easier to tie the Bag Knot while standing on a ladder, trying to tie two half hitches in this spot is sort of tough. A Clove Hitch works almost as well, it simply lacks the security of the Bag Knot.
Title: Re: What niche does a wrapping-type hitch fill?
Post by: TMCD on November 21, 2012, 04:49:27 PM
Let me be a little more emphatic, these Miller Knots or Snug Hitches clearly serve a great purpose in my line of work. As I explained above, it's very difficult trying to tie off to a ladder rung with two half hitches and much easier tying one of the Miller's Knots IMO. So there's a perfect niche for these knots, among many I'm sure.
Title: Re: What niche does a wrapping-type hitch fill?
Post by: erizo1 on November 21, 2012, 06:45:11 PM
Let me be a little more emphatic, these Miller Knots or Snug Hitches clearly serve a great purpose in my line of work. As I explained above, it's very difficult trying to tie off to a ladder rung with two half hitches and much easier tying one of the Miller's Knots IMO. So there's a perfect niche for these knots, among many I'm sure.

Thanks, TMCD, the fact that these are sometimes easier to tie is another feature I hadn't thought of. That's also the kind of thing where I can look back on times when I was in an awkward position trying to tie a hitch and would have benefited from knowing a good snug hitch.
Title: Re: What niche does a wrapping-type hitch fill?
Post by: Luca on November 22, 2012, 05:07:19 PM
Hi erizo1,

Another application in which are used the snug hitches(thanks Sweeney,I did not know this definition),is to wrap them around  another rope,usually larger,but also of the same size(at least one of the photos by Dan Lehman linked above by Sweeney is a good example of this application);I think that,with regard to this application,are preferred to the"loop/noose"hitches,because maybe have a good grip,without too much sap the strength of the rope around which they are wrapped.Some other examples, among others that relate to this application, are visible on pages 265/266 of the ABOK(I know this is about lengthwise pull, but this is,however,another niche application for snug hitches!).
It is always about to wrap around a rope: the loop/noose/grip-based hitches, are not they generally consist of a snug  hitch wrapped  to their own standing part?I believe that this alone would be enough to justify not only their conception, which already justified in itself, as pointed out previously by X1,but also the use!

I have a particular fascination with the category of hitches that includes the ground line, bag, snuggle, boom, etc. - I think there's something elegant and pleasing about them

OK, after some things a little obvious I wrote above, there is another thing a little obvious  that personally fascinates me with regard to snug hitches,which is that there is a sort of "mutual aid" between the hitch and the object that it wraps, because the object is grabbed by the hitch, but at the same time, the grabbed object itself,becomes an integrated and constitutive part of the hitch,which,removed from the object that grabs,often resolves itself to be nothing, just disappears![it is not exactly the case of the Ground-line hitch, which becomes an overhand knot,or of other similar bag-knots( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miller%27s_knot ), which become figures of eight, or nine;among these knots,only Abok #1244 (#1674 for no-slipped version ), resolve itself to be nothing,a no-knot,and is tiable in the bight,as pointed out by TMCD(it seems to be"almost"a Constrictor(knot,binder knot,no hitch,in the case of Constrictor,unless,as the no-slipped Buntline Hitch mentioned by knot4u,do not you want to use as a permanent hitch));the dialogue that here was between Sweeney and X1 about the Ground-line hitch, it was to me very interesting and instructive, to me personally has led to the conclusion that perhaps this knot, when it is used as a hitch,and not as binding / bag knot, is more suitable to be used around objects(possibly a line? http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3656.msg24949#msg24949 ) with a diameter not much larger than the diameter of the rope used, because, in this way, the tail of the hitch tends to position itself in a way that it is more directly nipped  by the pulling on the standing part, without being at the mercy of the "triangular slack" created by placing the knot under tension]

                                                                                                     Bye!

Title: Re: What niche does a wrapping-type hitch fill?
Post by: X1 on November 22, 2012, 08:51:35 PM
   An unambiguous, and, at the same time, easy way to classify hitches, is by the number of wraps around the object they are attached on.
   In my computer, I have 5 files where I keep pictures of the "best"  hitches with 1, 2, 3, 4 and more than 4 = multiple wraps. By the "best", I mean the most secure, most tight, easy to remember, easy to tie, easy to untie, and most elegant of all the known hitches. A curious thing is that out of the many hitches shown by Ashley in ABoK, I have only the single and double Strangle and Constrictor hitches ! Nothing else... It is evident that the main source of knowledge about hitches, for the great majority of people, is the ABoK, so I believe that there is much more to be leant about those knots, before we reach the point to ask ourselves what niche - if any - they will fill...
Title: Re: What niche does a wrapping-type hitch fill?
Post by: knot4u on November 22, 2012, 09:27:33 PM
Luca, your posts are actually impossible to comprehend accurately.  I can only grab little nuggets here and there.  I know your period key works because you have at least two periods in your long post.  You are writing sentences.  Please, just drop a period after every sentence, and start a start a new sentence.  Anyway, here's one comment I caught:

...among these knots,only Abok #1244 (#1674 for no-slipped version ), resolve itself to be nothing...

Here are some wrap knots that can be tied on a bight:

Bag (ABOK #1244)
Constrictor
Double Constrictor
Boa
Clove
Munter
Pile
Double Pile
Sailor
Snuggle

The challenge is finding a memorable technique for each one.
Title: Re: What niche does a wrapping-type hitch fill?
Post by: X1 on November 22, 2012, 11:04:42 PM
Bag (ABOK #1244)
Constrictor
Double Constrictor
Boa
Clove
Munter
Pile
Double Pile
Sailor
Snuggle

  With the exception of the Constrictors (1), all those hitches are so-so or even mediocre hitches... especially when tied on the contemporary slippery materials ( and on slippery poles, for those which are meant to withstand a lengthwise pull ). I do not see the reason one should figure out and learn a memorable technique to tie in the bight a knot that could well be forgotten without great loss !  :)

1.  http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3174.0
Title: Re: What niche does a wrapping-type hitch fill?
Post by: Luca on November 23, 2012, 12:42:06 AM
Hi knot4u,

I'm a bit embarrassed :-[, I do not only write bad English, but also in Italian, I tend to write in a way a bit "bizarre", I remember my teachers, complained me a little like you did! Evidently it is my fault,I'm sorry,I will try to improve!(and I'll try to follow your advices!).About ABOK #1244,I mean that it is the only one of the bag knots to be tiable on the bight:of course there are many more snug/wrap hitches that have this feature.
               
                                                                                                         Bye!
Title: Re: What niche does a wrapping-type hitch fill?
Post by: TMCD on November 23, 2012, 01:42:25 AM
Bag (ABOK #1244)
Constrictor
Double Constrictor
Boa
Clove
Munter
Pile
Double Pile
Sailor
Snuggle

  With the exception of the Constrictors (1), all those hitches are so-so or even mediocre hitches... especially when tied on the contemporary slippery materials ( and on slippery poles, for those which are meant to withstand a lengthwise pull ). I do not see the reason one should figure out and learn a memorable technique to tie in the bight a knot that could well be forgotten without great loss !  :)

1.  http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3174.0
Most knot tyers, myself included, love ABoK 1244. Why don't you like ABoK 1244? It's not meant for a length wise pull Xarax, it's a right angle hitch...I know you know that but your response mentioned length wise pulls and that's a bad comparison. The Pile Hitch has been well regarded as well, it's had lots of positive write ups in various knot books. I've used 1244 in various scenarios and have never had a problem with it and that's in modern cordage.
Title: Re: What niche does a wrapping-type hitch fill?
Post by: knot4u on November 23, 2012, 08:36:00 AM
Bag (ABOK #1244)
Constrictor
Double Constrictor
Boa
Clove
Munter
Pile
Double Pile
Sailor
Snuggle

  With the exception of the Constrictors (1), all those hitches are so-so or even mediocre hitches... especially when tied on the contemporary slippery materials ( and on slippery poles, for those which are meant to withstand a lengthwise pull ). I do not see the reason one should figure out and learn a memorable technique to tie in the bight a knot that could well be forgotten without great loss !  :)

1.  http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3174.0

Well, if you need a knot on a bight, you can sit there and complain, or you can man up and do the best you can with what you know!  I'm not saying these knots are my favorites, but clearly I'm talking about knots on a bight.  That's why I started a new thread.  So, I can help people focus.  If you can contribute to the new thread, please do, thanks.
Title: Re: What niche does a wrapping-type hitch fill?
Post by: X1 on November 23, 2012, 04:22:14 PM
Most knot tyers,...love ABoK 1244. Why don't you like ABoK 1244?

   Obviously, I had succeeded to stir up things a little bid ! Great success !  :)
   First, what most tyers do or they do not, is not a measure of something being correct or wrong, or better or worse from something else, for many reasons. I would argue that it is not even an indication of the value of the things they do or the things they do not ! That is why the field of knotting is full of myths, of unproven subjective beliefs and superstitions, but empty of testable theories and objective experimental facts.  Why ? Because most knot tyers know and tie only the knots they had learned at a young age reading the bible, the ABoK, or listening to some knot guru, who keeps parroting the ABoK. MOST knot tyers never try to figure out other knots, or learn other knots, or test the knots they know with the knots somebody else knows.
    Now, one may ask, why is this so ? The answer is simple : One can live very well with the few knots he already has learned at a young age, and manage to somehow "solve" any knotting problems he encounters with those few knots. Most of the time, the satisfaction one gets by just tying something, is far greater than the satisfaction of having it tied as it should, or as it could. The "solution" might not be the best, the optimum or the most elegant, but, most of the time, gets the job done - and if it does not, one can always just throw in another one or two tucks. NASA "solved" the problem of securing the wires of Curiosity with the same knots my son used to tie his shoelaces as a kid, before he had learned any other knot - and I am sure that most people will never tie their shoelaces or their tie with anything else than the first knot they have learned... It does the job, and, what is also important, anything else that could also do the same job, should not do it in a sooo better way. The differences between knots are small, and sometimes even subtle, so most people feel that the additional effort to learn new knots, or test new knots, or figure out new knots, is not worth the trouble. And by this "most people" I mean " most knot tyers", too.  :)
   Let me return at the topic : Most 2-wrap hitches will do most things we want them to do, because of the two mechanisms all wrapping-type hitches make use of : the capstan effect, and the riding turns. By making two turns around the object any 2-wrap hitch diminishes the tensile force at the second end at a great degree, and squeezing the tail underneath one ore two riding turns, in between tensioned rope segments and the hard surface of the pole, completes the solution. So, most knot tyers will keep using any one of the many 2-wrap hitches in the ABoK - and by doing this time and again, for years, they will learn to like them, and even to love them, as history has taught us about what humans are able to do... :) 
   I will not say why I do not "love" : ABoK#1244 or Pile hitch  :). However, I do "like" them, as I like any other 2-wrap hitch, because they are such marvellous little rope mechanisms - as most hitches are. Some of them are tighter than the others, and some are prettier than the others, but, essentially, most of them work, and work in the same way. Some can be tied in the bight and some can not, but this is a feature that we will probably need very rarely. Also, we must not forget that ALL knots can be tied in the bight, with a doubled line !  :) With a one- or two-wraps hitch, doubling the line is not a big deal. Also, it should be mentioned that even if the non-slipped version of a 2-wrap hitch is not a TIB knot, its slipped version might become TIB.
   Let me show which are the 2-wraps hitches included in my 2-wrap hitch file, that I do "love"  :) ( alongside the Strangle and the Constrictor ). If somebody persuades me, with reasonable theoretical arguments and experimental indications ( at least, if not data ) that there is another 2-wrap hitch which is more secure, more tight, more easy to remember, more easy to tie, more easy to untie, and/or more elegant than any of these, I will include this hitch in my file at once, I will throw out of my heart / forget the hitches that I used to love till now, and I will fall in love with the new acquaintances. :) It is the love of knots that brought us here.
Title: Re: What niche does a wrapping-type hitch fill?
Post by: X1 on November 23, 2012, 04:38:59 PM
So, I can help people focus.

   I try to do the same - but we first have to see, then to focus... :) We are taliking about hitches, in general, or just about 2-wrap hitches ? Which are the 2-wrap hitches that could be tied in the bight ? When we present a catalogue, I guess it should be complete, or, at least, should not presented as it is complete while it is not.
   If you are searching for somebody who just "sits there and complains", you should better find somebody without my present back pain, from the hitches I tie and and the pictures I take ... :)
Title: Re: What niche does a wrapping-type hitch fill?
Post by: erizo1 on November 23, 2012, 04:59:33 PM
Bag (ABOK #1244)
Constrictor
Double Constrictor
Boa
Clove
Munter
Pile
Double Pile
Sailor
Snuggle

  With the exception of the Constrictors (1), all those hitches are so-so or even mediocre hitches... especially when tied on the contemporary slippery materials ( and on slippery poles, for those which are meant to withstand a lengthwise pull ). I do not see the reason one should figure out and learn a memorable technique to tie in the bight a knot that could well be forgotten without great loss !  :)

I have seen the constrictor listed in several places now as a hitch, but I've tried that and it seems like a pretty poor one to me. I tie it nice and tight, and then if I flap it or give it several sharp tugs, I can just watch it lose its grip and come apart. I learned it as a binding knot, and it's marvelous there, but it doesn't seem cut out to be a hitch to me. I might trust it on about the same level as the ground line - in situations where nothing too valuable was at stake or the line would experience a pretty constant load - but as a hitch I feel like the constrictor is way outperformed by the sailor's and snuggle, and possibly even the bag hitch.

I'm interested to hear what you think.
Title: Re: What niche does a wrapping-type hitch fill?
Post by: X1 on November 23, 2012, 05:14:00 PM
   I have seen the constrictor listed in several places now as a hitch, but I've tried that and it seems like a pretty poor one to me. I tie it nice and tight, and then if I flap it or give it several sharp tugs, I can just watch it lose its grip and come apart. I learned it as a binding knot, and it's marvelous there, but it doesn't seem cut out to be a hitch to me

   I agree. There are some hitches where the direction of the pull of the standing end matters a lot, and some where it does not matter at all. If the direction of the pull remains more or less tangent to the sutface of the pole, and perpendicular to its axis, the Constrictor is superb. I think that the Strangle knot is, in a sense, more versatile as a tight hitch, because its grip is not depending upon the direction of the pull so much.
   Now, the Constrictor is not "marvelous" as a binding knot either. If you wish to go as far as a 3-wraps hitch, try the TackleClamp hitch - and for a very easy-to-remember 4 wraps hitch, try the Double Cow hitch.
Title: Re: What niche does a wrapping-type hitch fill?
Post by: TMCD on November 24, 2012, 02:31:26 AM
Xarax,
What's do you call the beefed up Clove Hitch you presented a while back? It simply consisted of an extra turn on each side of the Clove Hitch and I liked it very much. It also seemed to handle a length wise pull pretty damn good. Pro's and Con's of it? Do you like it?
Title: Re: What niche does a wrapping-type hitch fill?
Post by: X1 on November 24, 2012, 05:17:52 AM
   Oh, names do not matter much - if at all ... :) I had seen that, on top of the usual riding-turn effect, at a multi-coil Clove hitch there was also something else playing a curious role, that I had not predicted it would make any difference... Yet it does, and the way it achieves it is very interesting : as the riding turn of a multi-coil Clove hitch has to span more than two round turns across, it is forced, by the increased width of the multiple rope diameters, to settle at a much smaller than 90 degrees angle, relatively to the axis of the pole ( See the attached pictures). Doing this, the riding turn now forces the round turns to be squeezed the one upon the other - so, in a way, it "locks" them in the position they had settled when the hitch was loaded at the first place, even if/after the load has been removed. What we get, is a hitch that is able to be pre-tensioned ( to some degree), that is, to accumulate and store within its multiple round turns some of the tensile forces that were inserted into them when the hitch was loaded. I have argued that this effect helps the hitch to withstand a subsequent lengthwise pull, because its round turns would not deformed by such a pull too much into oblique ellipses, as they usually do in most other hitches.
   As the hitch accumulates and stores tensile forces within its round turns, and as those forces are locked there because the squeezed-upon-each-other round turns cannot slip, it becomes something of a "coil spring"  : So, when we intervene in the balance of the hitch, by manually forcing those round turns to slip relatively to each other, this "coil spring"  is suddenly released, and so does the hitch : a quick-release hitch, so to speak.
   All the pre-tensioning effects are more pronounced in the case the material we use can be elongated, so it can store the tensile energy we put into the rope length of the round turns, without releasing it after a small relocation of the ends. Therefore it is better if we use nylon ropes, as nylon is a very stretchy material ( compared with the other materials used for ropes ).
   Of course, we can not add too many round turns... First, if they are too many, we would not be able to pre-tension all of them, because of the reverse capstan effect. Second, the angle of the riding turn with the axis of the pole would be too acute, and so ithe riding turn will probably pass above the round turns at the two sides of the "coils spring", and it would not be able to squeeze them the one upon the other any more...It is a sensible balance we have to achieve, taking into account the relative diameters of the rope and the pole, as well as their friction characteristics. In short,we have to rely on the only proven, and most succesfull primordial technique of all knot tyers : trial and error !  :)
Title: Re: What niche does a wrapping-type hitch fill?
Post by: TMCD on November 24, 2012, 02:50:35 PM
The triple wrap Clove Hitch really seems to grip well, quite a bit better than the double wrap deal. I do like the fact that both of them can be somewhat pre tensioned, it feels secure. How does this little gem stack up to the many other multi wrap presentations by you? Is it well suited for a length wise pull or would the double cow hitch be preferable? I'm having a hard time tying the double cow hitch as you presented it.

A most basic question I have is this, what would be the most simple, secure hitch to tie in a situation where time is critical and I've got two dozen poles to wrap, hitch and secure for a man twenty feet below me. I'm thinking this simple beefed up Clove Hitch would be a good option or the trusty ole pipe hitch. What ever the hitch we choose, it must be secure AND simple/quick to tie...money's on the line.
Title: Re: What niche does a wrapping-type hitch fill?
Post by: TMCD on November 24, 2012, 03:04:11 PM
Another obvious niche for snug hitches that hasn't been discussed yet is tying them around tool handles. I tie both, the Constrictor and Bag Knot around shovel handles, broom handles etc. In this manner they can be neatly tied up in the garage by making a strop and hanging them on a nail or hook. I also do this with nail punches because it makes them easier to find when on my work truck. I usually bend the paracord together with the Sailor's Knife Lanyard or the Double Knife Lanyard.

Two half hitches would be goofy in this situation, a snug hitch is the best option.
Title: Re: What niche does a wrapping-type hitch fill?
Post by: X1 on November 24, 2012, 03:17:32 PM
The triple wrap Clove Hitch really seems to grip well, quite a bit better than the double wrap deal.

   I guess it depends upon the relative diameters of the pole (d pole) and the rope (d rope). What is the ratio d pole / d rope you have tried ? Have you tried the 4-wrap Clove hitch on the same pole and rope ? What is the optimum number of round turns ?
   
How does [it] stack up to the many other multi wrap presentations by you? Is it well suited for a length wise pull or would the double cow hitch be preferable?

   I don t have a clue !  :)

   I'm having a hard time tying the double cow hitch as you presented it.

   May be you can tie it much easier. I had tried to retain, as a mnemonic aid, the "image"  of the Cow hitch through the tying procedure, but this might complicate it a little bid. 
   Just form the shape shown at the first picture, and penetrate it with the accessible end of the pole, as it is shown at the second picture. Then, pull hard ! I use pull the two ends the one after the other, against the pole, by hands AND feet, like a rower... :) The tightness of a pre-tensioned Double Cow hitch has no relation whatsoever with the Pile hitch...
   Regarding the specific question you have asked, I have no experience in critical or rescue situations, and I do not know how the parameter of "time" can be evaluated... Also, and this is the most important thing, we do not have any experimental data for those hitches - except for the Andalusian hitch. So, I would suggest to read everything that is published about the tests performed  onthe Andalusian hitch, ask the inventors /climber that have discovered it, and then give it a try.
Title: Re: What niche does a wrapping-type hitch fill?
Post by: X1 on November 24, 2012, 03:24:56 PM
is tying them around tool handles.

   If the handle is not too short, one can also use the ABoK#1755, #1756, upside down.
Title: Re: What niche does a wrapping-type hitch fill?
Post by: knot4u on November 24, 2012, 09:17:39 PM
The triple wrap Clove Hitch really seems to grip well, quite a bit better than the double wrap deal. I do like the fact that both of them can be somewhat pre tensioned, it feels secure. How does this little gem stack up to the many other multi wrap presentations by you? Is it well suited for a length wise pull or would the double cow hitch be preferable? I'm having a hard time tying the double cow hitch as you presented it.

A most basic question I have is this, what would be the most simple, secure hitch to tie in a situation where time is critical and I've got two dozen poles to wrap, hitch and secure for a man twenty feet below me. I'm thinking this simple beefed up Clove Hitch would be a good option or the trusty ole pipe hitch. What ever the hitch we choose, it must be secure AND simple/quick to tie...money's on the line.

The Pipe Hitch sets the bar pretty high.  The Pipe Hitch below can be modified with a Buntline (instead of the Two Half Hitches) for a different effect.  Depending on my need, the version I use may change accordingly.

(http://i1221.photobucket.com/albums/dd468/iq201/Hitch-WellPipeABOK504.jpg)
Title: Re: What niche does a wrapping-type hitch fill?
Post by: knot4u on November 24, 2012, 10:34:28 PM
The Pipe Hitch sets the bar pretty high.

  As I have explained time and again, if we use the same number of wraps, say n, the n-wrap Pile hitch is inferior to ANY one of the four n-wraps hitches shown at (1). ( Provided that, in high jump, the use of glue at the bar is prohibited...  :)) At the time the ABoK was first published ( and, I suppose, at the time this nice sketch of the Pile hitch was drawn ), the world record of the high jump was about 2.00 m - now it is about 2.40 ( +20%). I reckon that the difference between the Pile hitch and any of those four hitches shown at (1) is (much) more than that !  :) 
  However, I agree 100% that one can always pass under the bar, and still manage to live with it... :)


1. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4139.msg25008#msg25008

Well, according to TMCD, the context is "money is on the line."  For example, you have 10 seconds to make the hitch, not 16 seconds.  If the improvement to one of your hitches is marginal (which I even doubt), then I'm going with the faster solution.  Currently, I can tie a Pipe Hitch much faster than one of the hitches you've suggested.  It's like you're saying the Pipe Hitch is so hideous that we have to go with one of these other hitches you invented.  Such a stance mars your credibility because I have personal experience with the Pipe Hitch working fantastically in real world applications.

If you can't tie a tight Pipe Hitch to get the job done, then I sincerely question your ability to tie basic knots.  I want to be clear that I'm not trying to be derogatory.  You may have a physical disability that is unknown to me.
Title: Re: What niche does a wrapping-type hitch fill?
Post by: knot4u on November 25, 2012, 01:02:04 AM
Xarax, I was answering TMCD's question, not some question you think/wish he asked.

A most basic question I have is this, what would be the most simple, secure hitch to tie in a situation where time is critical and I've got two dozen poles to wrap, hitch and secure for a man twenty feet below me. I'm thinking this simple beefed up Clove Hitch would be a good option or the trusty ole pipe hitch. What ever the hitch we choose, it must be secure AND simple/quick to tie...money's on the line.

The answer is easy enough to determine.  You get a stop watch and time how long it takes to tie AND untie a particular hitch.  For me, the Pipe Hitch remains the winner.  I will give it to you that the beefed up Clove Hitch is relatively quick to tie, but not as quick as the Pipe Hitch for me.  Also, when I slip the Pipe Hitch, it sets the bar even higher because the time to untie is super low compared to the beefed up Clove.  Further, the Pipe Hitch is a high performer.  I can cinch it up tight so that the coils do not expand much, but I understand that others may not be as strong as me.  So, you may have difficulties there.

It's unfortunate you have to get so emotional every single time somebody criticizes one of your hitches.  Come on.  Let's try to be more objective so the discussions can be more productive.
Title: Re: What niche does a wrapping-type hitch fill?
Post by: X1 on November 25, 2012, 02:20:40 AM
   First of all, let me notice what has been said at a previous post :
   Well, if you need a knot on a bight, you can sit there and complain, or you can man up and do the best you can with what you know!
 ...clearly I'm talking about knots on a bight.

  It is impossible to tie the Pile hitch variation shown at (1) in the bight, I am afraid... and the same is true for the slipped or the Buntline-based versions of it. On the contrary, all the knots that I have suggested are "clearly" TIB knots, with the exception of the non-slipped single-hitch-a-la-Gleipnir - but the slipped version of it becomes a TIB knot, as I have mentioned at (2):

even if the non-slipped version of a 2-wrap hitch is not a TIB knot, its slipped version might become TIB. 

   Does any of the knots suggested at (2) really take much more time to be tied than un equivalent - re. the number of its wraps - Pile hitch ? No, not at all.
   1. The time the Andalusian hitch needs, is shown at the video :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ShFA4CMyhNA&list=UUILfSVV5Dr_qk5i2snM6uJw&index=1&feature=plcp
    Less than 10 seconds, and I guess that, with a little practice, one can tie it in 6 seconds. So, even if the Pile hitch needs 1 second (!), the difference would be 5 seconds...
    In sailing, one is often confronted with sudden changes of the weather, the course of the wind or the boat, with impeding collisions with rocks, docks, logs, boats, etc... but I had never felt the need to do something in such a rapid pace, in less than 6 seconds ! On the contrary, if one does something in a hurry, and makes a mistake, the time that would be needed to correct it would be awfully longer... If we tie a mediocre or a so-so hitch, and then we see that it does not hold as it should ( because the load has suddenly increased, there came some water on the surface of pole, the direction of the standing end has changed, etc. ), we would need many times the time we had "saved" at the first place, to untie it and then tie a tighter one in its place ...
    2. The time the Tom Foul s hitch needs, is described at ABoK#2534. It is a knot that has been popular to the magicians since the original Dark Ages, precisely because it can be tied in the bight so fast ! What else can I say ? I am sure that Alan Lee can tie it in much less than 6 seconds, probably in 3 seconds ! So, the difference with the hypothetical miraculously-tied-in-just-one-second Pile hitch would also be 5 seconds.
   3. The time the slipped locked Cow hitch needs, depends upon the time one needs to tie a single Cow hitch ! Then he should just pass the slipped bight underneath the standing end. I guess that it will also need less than 10 seconds - and if we compare the hand movements needed to form a Pile hitch with those needed to form a Cow hitch, we will not find much difference.
   4. The time the slipped single-hitch-a-la-Gleipnir needs is probably more than 10 seconds, because it takes some time to dress the knot correctly, and tighten it so the two coils stand perpendicularily on the surface of the pole. So, this is the only knot of the 4 I had suggested, that will need 10, or even 20 seconds more than a Pile hitch. If time is sooo precious, and 10 or 20 seconds cost sooo much, then one should not tie this hitch.
    It is amusing that we are talking about seconds, even minutes, when we are comparing knots...Very few practical purposes need a knot that would be able to be tied very quickly, and in even fewer the need of speed would force the knot tyer to make compromises to security.
   I have something else to add : To me, to tie a knot, the best possible knot, in the best possible way, is a satisfaction by itself. I do not wish to lose the joy to watch the proper knot properly tied, just to gain a few seconds, or even minutes. If I have to save time, I would rather eat fast, second quality food, than tie fast, second quality knots... :)
 
1. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4139.msg25030#msg25030
2. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4139.msg25008#msg25008 
Title: Re: What niche does a wrapping-type hitch fill?
Post by: knot4u on November 25, 2012, 02:50:21 AM
Back to TMCD's question I quoted above, if the guy below can just slip off the beefed up Clove from the end of the pipe, then the beefed up Clove may have an advantage with the untie process.  However, if he must take off his gloves to loosen the dressing of any knot, then that knot will have a disadvantage to the Pipe Hitch.  The Pipe Hitch can be slipped and easily untied with gloves.  A safer environment is thereby maintained.  I'm all for worker safety, while others may not care so much.
Title: Re: What niche does a wrapping-type hitch fill?
Post by: X1 on November 25, 2012, 02:59:57 AM
an advantage with the untie process.

Pull the " trigger" of the slipped bight of the locked Cow hitch. It will be released as fast as a bullet !  :)
Title: Re: What niche does a wrapping-type hitch fill?
Post by: knot4u on November 25, 2012, 06:51:28 AM
Hi Xarax, can you explain the relevance of that knot to anything I've been discussing?  Thanks
Title: Re: What niche does a wrapping-type hitch fill?
Post by: X1 on November 25, 2012, 12:46:42 PM
can you explain the relevance of that knot to anything I've been discussing?
What a line ! :) Let me try my hand...

   This is not a 2-wrap, ease to tie and to release, tight hitch.
Title: Re: What niche does a wrapping-type hitch fill?
Post by: SS369 on November 25, 2012, 03:06:59 PM
Hi TMCD,

In the quote below you asked:
A most basic question I have is this, what would be the most simple, secure hitch to tie in a situation where time is critical and I've got two dozen poles to wrap, hitch and secure for a man twenty feet below me. I'm thinking this simple beefed up Clove Hitch would be a good option or the trusty ole pipe hitch. What ever the hitch we choose, it must be secure AND simple/quick to tie...money's on the line.

I am wondering what the two dozen poles are? Are they to be secured individually or as a bundle? It could make a difference as to a solution.

I understand that "money's on the line" (time is money), but there is always time to tie a good knot. ;-)

SS
Title: Re: What niche does a wrapping-type hitch fill?
Post by: knot4u on November 25, 2012, 05:00:53 PM
Good points, also, what are the specs on the pipes?  Depending on the specs, a wrap hitch may be completely the wrong approach altogether.  For example, if you can easily get the rope through the pipe, I'm already imagining quicker and much safer options.
Title: Re: What niche does a wrapping-type hitch fill?
Post by: xarax on June 24, 2014, 08:02:00 AM
   I am well aware of the fact that one man s hieroglyphs can be all Greek to another, so the text in (1) will not make any sense to him... The important thing, which I would like to restate, is that the interested reader should tie and try this Multi-wrap Clove hitch on different materials, and around different poles, increasing or decreasing the number of wraps, until he feels that they are pre-tensioned and "locked" as much as possible. I have seen that, regarding this, it pays if we pull the free ends one by one, but towards a direction tangent to the surface of the pole, so we do not pull the oblique riding turn ( the "bridge" ) of the Clove hitch away from the surface at the same time.
   Although the last segments of the free ends are not "locked" by any mechanism similar to the "opposed bights" one we use at the Double Cow hitch and at the TackleClamp hitch (0), they remain surprisingly firmly "glued" to each other, because of the friction generated in between the adjacent wraps. Tie and try it !

0. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4906.0
1. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4139.msg25019#msg25019