International Guild of Knot Tyers Forum

General => Chit Chat => Topic started by: JimC on January 12, 2005, 02:52:54 PM

Title: Name for centre space of reef knot
Post by: JimC on January 12, 2005, 02:52:54 PM
An interesting challenge set by Geoffrey Budworth in KM85 (P33).

The technically correct generalised name of course, is the "interstitial" space. From the term: - "Interstice: A small or narrow space between things or parts: small chink, crevice, or opening."

However I do not feel this is specific enough or in the spirit of Geoffrey's challenge and suggest we look for something a little more appropriate and sympathetic to the subject.

I'd like to put forward a few suggestions for consideration. How about we exercise the authority vested in the IGKT to determine that it be called something like: -

The...

"Reef Not"
"Reef Slot"
"Inner Reef"
"Inner Piece"
"Knot Cranny"

Much more romantic don't you think?

Any further suggestions?

Regards
JimC
Title: Re: Name for centre space of reef knot
Post by: DaveRoot on January 12, 2005, 05:13:56 PM
"Reef Corral"
"Reef Space"


Quote
How about we exercise the authority vested in the IGKT to determine that it be called something like: -

Any chance that the authority vested in the IGKT can be exercised to switch the meanings of "Fisherman's Knot" and "Fisherman's Bend" so that they *finally* make sense??  ;D
Title: Re: Name for centre space of reef knot
Post by: nuttyknotter on January 12, 2005, 06:24:03 PM
I think this is a bit silly. I don't know names for most of my knots, & most of the time I don't need to.
Is every space in a mat going to have its individual name?
Title: Re: Name for centre space of reef knot
Post by: Dan Lehman on January 12, 2005, 08:55:08 PM
Quote
I think this is a bit silly.  I don't know names for most of my knots, & most of the time I don't need to.
Is every space in a mat going to have its individual name?

It's not silly; it's quite difficult but worthwhile to develop a good
nomenclature for knots.  (You would be unlikely to have a particular
name for a space in a mat, but you might have a general name for the type
of space, particularized to a spot by a sort of indexing for the structure
--"4th cross in 11th row", e.g..)

Note that knots are three-dimensional, and yet many attempts to treat
them with this sort of partsnomenclature assume a particular
perspective--e.g., the Overhand was seen by Asher in the common
pretzelorientation, and he thus had names for the the spaces
or potential gaps between the ends and each other (in what he named
the "spine"); but in using the Overhand form in e.g. a barrel hitch,
one splits this spine not from this side but from what would be seen
as the "top", and where only one possible space exists!

Btw, I find it sad that Budworth HAS an illustrator (and yet ANOTHER book?!):
HIS hand & eye are good, so why employ some ignorant hired help from
a publisher!?  (There are so many botched images, and then nonsense
built upon them--EKFR's "True Bowline" comes to mind.)

Quote
Any chance that the authority vested in the IGKT can be exercised to switch the meanings of "Fisherman's Knot" and "Fisherman's Bend" so that they *finally* make sense?

I've mused about this, too.  But note (cf. CLDay, e.g.) that Ashley's
definition of "bend" comes from preference, not precedent.  With that
consideration, I'd favor finding a new term to denote knots that join
two (or more) lines.  "Hitch" I think is pretty well defined.  "binder"
& "stopper" seem good for their resp. classes.  "Loop" is so much
overloaded that it's problematic; "loopknot" is awkward.  "Mesh" or
"netknot" come to mind for that class.

Btw, in references to Knotting Matters, I find the notational
shorthand "kmII:PP" (e.g. km85:33) to be concise & perspicuous!
I keep lobbying Colin, but so far to no avail, and the long-winded ways
continue.  (-;

Cheers,
--dl*
====
Title: Re: Name for centre space of reef knot
Post by: KnotNow! on January 12, 2005, 09:33:19 PM
I am with Dan; I don't think it silly.  Perhaps it is the running patter in my mind that readily accepts the idea of wanting a nqme for all the parts.  I am all for bights and leads, wend and stend and where would we be without warp and weft?  When I work THK's and mats I think of a crossing above as a "gozover" and one below as a "gozunner".   A completed crossing of "gozover's" forms a "panel".  Three or four "panels" surround a "bay".  So as to the reef knot... I'd already had a vulgar name for it in my head but much prefer some of the current offering.... "Inner Reef" seems pretty nice and salty to me.
Title: Re: Name for centre space of reef knot
Post by: Lasse_C on January 14, 2005, 09:33:13 AM
I showed KM to a witty friend of mine who suggested to call it "The Lagoon".

When I looked puzzled he grinned: "Well, it is inside a reef, is it not?"

Lasse C
Title: Re: Name for centre space of reef knot
Post by: Breton on January 14, 2005, 11:36:55 AM
Surely the centre of a Reef or Square knot must be known as 'The Martyr's Hole'?  ;)

In support, I offer this translation from 'Guide des noeuds et du matelotage' (Chasse-Marée publications, 2002 - p44);
(the reef knot is)"... very difficult to undo when hauled tight. One may include a martyr between the two half-knots to make it easier to cast off where it is subject to severe tension."

The 'martyr' is, presumably, a piece of wood or similar.
Title: Re: Name for centre space of reef knot
Post by: Dan Lehman on January 15, 2005, 01:02:59 AM
Quote
I showed KM to a witty friend of mine who suggested to call it "The Lagoon".
When I looked puzzled he grinned: "Well, it is inside a reef, is it not?"

Ten points to him--congrats!!!
::)   ;D   :D   ;)   :)
Title: Re: Name for centre space of reef knot
Post by: JimC on January 15, 2005, 01:48:00 AM
Now that's the spirit! Knotter's are not a humourless lot after all.

For mine, it's gotta be between "Martyr's hole" and "Lagoon" so far.

Maybe favour 'Lagoon', then we could shorten it to the.. "Lag" (the bit left behind) and cause a whole new controversy in three generations time about the true origin of the name.

Well done!

Regards
JimC

Maybe we should set up a poll to get a consensus
Title: Re: Name for centre space of reef knot
Post by: Lasse_C on January 17, 2005, 01:07:30 PM
Quote
Maybe favour 'Lagoon', then we could shorten it to the.. "Lag" (the bit left behind) and cause a whole new controversy in three generations time about the true origin of the name.

Well done!

Regards
JimC


Absolutely excellent!
A usable name in our own time, and a play with words,  and causing a lot of headscratching in future times - who could ask for more? (http://www.langkawi.dk/q115.gif)

LC


Title: Re: Name for centre space of reef knot
Post by: nuttyknotter on January 19, 2005, 11:32:56 AM
Quote

How about we exercise the authority vested in the IGKT to determine that it be called something like: -

The...


"Knot Cranny"




Wouldn't that be a better name for the centerspace af a Granny knot? ;) :P
Title: Re: Name for centre space of reef knot
Post by: JimC on January 19, 2005, 01:55:31 PM
Well, I was tempted to suggest "cranny knot" but thought that just too obvious.

We are being serious here aren't we? ;D
Title: Re: Name for centre space of reef knot
Post by: KnotNow! on January 19, 2005, 08:32:09 PM
 :DHow serious need we be?  I'm not good at that.  Im casting my preliminary ballot for "Lagoon".  Perhaps we can develope a generic term for the heart or center compartment of other knots.... or even all knots... something to make written discussion more precise? ???
Title: Re: Name for centre space of reef knot
Post by: JimC on January 20, 2005, 01:23:30 AM
OK then, if we are being serious then it has to be the 'interstitial space' doesn't it  ???

But, 'lagoon' has to come close  :D
Title: Re: Name for centre space of reef knot
Post by: Antonio on January 20, 2005, 02:15:55 AM
Quote
:DHow serious need we be?  I'm not good at that.  Im casting my preliminary ballot for "Lagoon".  Perhaps we can develope a generic term for the heart or center compartment of other knots.... or even all knots... something to make written discussion more precise? ???


This discussion is interesting, but making written discussion of knots more precise is like improving the shovel you use to paint paintings.   ;D
Title: Re: Name for centre space of reef knot
Post by: KnotNow! on January 23, 2005, 09:46:08 PM
Hi Antonio,  I am sorry that you feel that way about verbal and written descriptions.  If you are right then the knot books could be a lot smaller; just illustrations and photographs, without the "space wasting" text.  I find it difficult to imagine getting anything done without words (text or conversation).  I've been engineering for almost 40 years and place a very high value on drawings but also value a good set of "Notes to Construction".  As to painting with a shovel;  There are complete sets of little wee shovels, called pallet knives and a whole school of painting devoted to the precise use of them.  Somethimes they will allow effects that you can not get any other way.  Give it a try.. but then stick with knotting too!  
Title: Re: Name for centre space of reef knot
Post by: teedee on January 24, 2005, 12:11:35 PM
It's a pity that cul de porc has already been assigned.

But, as I can't think of the circumstances where this centre space needs a name, I think Geoffrey may have been pulling your legs.  :D
Title: Re: Name for centre space of reef knot
Post by: Frayed Knot Arts on January 01, 2010, 06:13:14 PM
Bumped... 'In Memoriam' for times when our concerns were less weighty
Title: Re: Name for centre space of reef knot
Post by: sharky on January 14, 2010, 03:44:18 PM
We mariners have a generic term for the space inside of any knot...we call it a hole...
Title: Re: Name for centre space of reef knot
Post by: SpitfireTriple on February 11, 2010, 07:17:39 PM
I like "lagoon" for the hole in the  centre of a reef knot.  It's perfect.

But I also smiled at:
This discussion is interesting, but making written discussion of knots more precise is like improving the shovel you use to paint paintings.   ;D


Now, many knots involve an overhand knot somewhere or other.  The working end is often subsequently passed through that overhand knot.  What could we call the hole in an overhand knot?
Title: Re: Name for centre space of reef knot
Post by: sharky on February 11, 2010, 09:27:59 PM
a hole ;D
Title: Re: Name for centre space of reef knot
Post by: SpitfireTriple on February 16, 2010, 05:51:59 PM
I've just come up with "Palm" (playing on Overhand), with the elbows of an overhand knot resembling knuckles?.  But that's not very satisfying, a palm is not a hole, not by any stretch of the imagination.

Altenatively, if you visualise an overhand knot with the standing and working ends horizontal, and the "loop" of the overhand bend hanging down under gravity, then the whole knot looks vaguely like a (frog's?) face?  If so, then the elbows at the top of the knot could be called eyes, and the loop below them the mouth?

Sorry, no where near as good as "Lagoon" for a reef knot!
Title: Re: Name for centre space of reef knot
Post by: Dan_Lehman on February 17, 2010, 07:11:20 PM
One might ask Why name the "hole" in a SquaREef knot?

I looked for some photo of Knots in the Wild that would give
rise to the question What centre space?! , but have only this,
where the knot hasn't seen the sort of loading & compression
that I've seen in some other cases -- few though to behold
(but where no hint of any space existed).

For the Overhand, the space within the confines of the knot
is helpful to name, for through it there is often some other
part of a knot -- e.g., in the Fisherman's knot each Overhand
component contains the opposite one's SPart.  The late Harry
Asher named the parts of the Overhand "spine" & "belly", where
I believe the latter denoted the part of the knot opposite the
spine; but it might serve as well for the space in the center
-- "through the belly" being the obvious passage with an
Overhand, though "through the spine" offers a few alternatives
(centered or on either side).

--dl*
====