International Guild of Knot Tyers Forum

General => Practical Knots => Topic started by: KnotMe on June 24, 2012, 03:03:08 AM

Title: what knot simulates zip tie behavior?
Post by: KnotMe on June 24, 2012, 03:03:08 AM
So, two different friends (who really should know that I only tie decorative knots) have asked me: what loop knot can be tied then tightened by pulling on a free end which then remains tight?

Does there exist such a beast?

Crossposted to khww (it's a race! 8)
Title: Re: what knot simulates zip tie behavior?
Post by: SS369 on June 24, 2012, 03:25:40 AM
Hi KnotMe,

the first one that comes to mind is the tautline hitch. I've used it in loop form to adjust tent guylines.
But there are many friction hitches that will do here as used in a loop.
Hope this helps.

SS
Title: Re: what knot simulates zip tie behavior?
Post by: KnotMe on June 24, 2012, 04:42:25 AM
Sounds plausible.  It was not that secure in my satin cord, but then I don't imagine they'll be using such things to tie up their tents or whatever.   ::)
Title: Re: what knot simulates zip tie behavior?
Post by: Dan_Lehman on June 24, 2012, 05:18:10 AM
Quote
Does there exist such a beast?

More information re use is needed in order to well answer
this.  There are various things that can give the illusion,
at least, to doing this.  (That almost suggests decorative
tying, doesn't it?!   ;) )

The versatackle mechanism might come closest to doing
the trick, as when hauling those structures tight, the parts
that will end up doing the binding (and which are wrongly
counted in figuring rough mechanical advantage) can go
pretty slack, out of the way; whereas most other possible
solutions are what I call "Paul Bunyan" structures --they
demand greater force in setting than they deliver (the force
needed to overcome the very friction that will secure them).

E.g., one could form a Prusik structure in the SPart and
run the tail back through this; setting tight would come by
pressing one hand against this knot and hauling the tail
through it, the increasing force ever building resistance
to the tightening.  There are simpler such contraptions;
there might be some that "remain tight" in a sufficiently
long enough temporary state to allow one to tie off the
knot securely, which might meet some need (in contrast
to simply letting go and being done).  Now, that was for
the "remaining tight" part; anyone want it later to be
untied?  Hmmmm, ... !

So, your friends' exact needs ...
.
.
.
might just be to see if you can do any useful knotting.
(Or if whom you associate with are worth much!)

 ;D


postscript :  I should remark about the Subject wording
--re "zip tie".  I take this to be those ratcheting plastic
securing bands.  In good ol' American buy-&-trash behavior,
these petroleum products are wasted more than they need
be : they usually can be undone, by inserting something
(sufficiently thin, narrow, & strong) to push the locking
tongue back so that the band can be slid undone.
Recently I found some in use at an arts festival for holding
signs that were large enough that one could effect the
release with a thumbnail!  Great!
Title: Re: what knot simulates zip tie behavior?
Post by: roo on June 24, 2012, 06:58:46 AM
So, two different friends (who really should know that I only tie decorative knots) have asked me: what loop knot can be tied then tightened by pulling on a free end which then remains tight?

Does there exist such a beast?

Crossposted to khww (it's a race! 8)
It depends on how similar to a real zip tie it needs to act.  I can give a few leads for you to mull over:

http://notableknotindex.webs.com/slippery8.html
http://notableknotindex.webs.com/Versatackle.html
http://notableknotindex.webs.com/blakeshitch.html
http://notableknotindex.webs.com/boaconstrictor.html

The footnote for the Slippery 8 Loop even discusses how it can be difficult to release if tensioned without an easy-release mechanism on the other end of the rope.  Happy knotting.
Title: Re: what knot simulates zip tie behavior?
Post by: Hrungnir on June 24, 2012, 01:20:04 PM
Corned beef knot or Packers knot. Depends on the problem really.
Title: Re: what knot simulates zip tie behavior?
Post by: Sweeney on June 24, 2012, 07:29:52 PM
How about the guyline knot that consisting of 2 overhand knots spaced apart on the standing part with the end then taken around eg a tent peg up and down through the two overhands - pull on the end and it tightens and stays there - very similar to a nylon tie but it may not be effective around eg a pole. This was the first website I came across via a Google search which shows a drawing - http://www.shurdington.org/Scouts/GuylineHitch.htm (http://www.shurdington.org/Scouts/GuylineHitch.htm).
Barry
Title: Re: what knot simulates zip tie behavior?
Post by: knot4u on June 24, 2012, 08:12:12 PM
Blake
Tautline (or Rolling, depending on how you look at it)
Versatackle (if you have enough room and rope)
Title: Re: what knot simulates zip tie behavior?
Post by: Dan_Lehman on June 24, 2012, 08:26:46 PM
With a little ingenuity, one can work a trucker's hitch + Gleipner into
a solution.  But this is also not so easily loosened from a taut state.
(For easy loosening, friction hitches seem best.)

--dl*
====
Title: Re: what knot simulates zip tie behavior?
Post by: Mike in MD on June 24, 2012, 10:32:51 PM
The discussion seems to be directed to guyline type systems.  But if the problem is a loop around a package which is *then tightened by pulling on a free end which then remains tight*, then the solution might be a buntline hitch.  I don't think I saw that mentioned.  I guess my question is: what *then remains tight*?  the loop or the standing part?

Mike
Title: Re: what knot simulates zip tie behavior?
Post by: X1 on June 25, 2012, 12:55:06 AM
How about the guyline knot that consisting of 2 overhand knots spaced apart on the standing part ...

   It would be interesting to compare the Guyline hitch, with the similar simple binder shown at the attached pictures.
   For a more secure solution, try a Versatackle-like lock on a Trucker s hitch - which is a ock of a double loop.
Title: Re: what knot simulates zip tie behavior?
Post by: squarerigger on June 26, 2012, 06:59:46 AM
Try the packer's knot ABOK#408.

SR
Title: Re: what knot simulates zip tie behavior?
Post by: knot4u on July 04, 2012, 10:56:03 PM
I just got done playing around with the Guyline Hitch. I remember now why I dismissed this knot a long time ago. If I really bear down on the tension, this knot is a pain to untie. In fact, I'm currently in the middle of unjamming the overhand knots of a Guyline Hitch. I took a break to write this post. I'm confident I won't be using this knot again, unless I don't need to untie.

For the same reason, I won't be using a Trucker where the loop is tied with a Slipped Overhand. The Overhand tends to be difficult to untie if you bear down hard with the tension. My preferred loop in a Trucker is a Span Loop.

I have a feeling sometimes people just post a knot here without much experience using the knot. It's difficult to imagine why anybody here would recommend a Guyline Hitch or a Trucker Hitch with Slipped Overhand. At least there should be a note about the tendency to jam, when there are so many other hitches that work perfectly fine while being easy to untie.

...Maybe I'm just irritated because I still can't untie the Overhand knot in my Guyline Hitch.  :-\
Title: Re: what knot simulates zip tie behavior?
Post by: Dan_Lehman on July 05, 2012, 06:26:54 AM
I just got done playing around with the Guyline Hitch. I remember now why I dismissed this knot a long time ago. If I really bear down on the tension, this knot is a pain to untie.

///

For the same reason, I won't be using a Trucker where the loop is tied with a Slipped Overhand. The Overhand tends to be difficult to untie if you bear down hard with the tension. My preferred loop in a Trucker is a Span Loop.

I have a feeling sometimes people just post a knot here without much experience using the knot. It's difficult to imagine why anybody here would recommend a Guyline Hitch or a Trucker Hitch with Slipped Overhand.

Maybe these knots have worked amply well for their expected
tasks, where "really bearing down" isn't part of the situation!?

Maybe you can form the slipped overhand better, in that
form more like the "half-hitch" bight hitch recently posted
by X1 ("Constant"?  --seems a variable; "c" is the constant).
Of course, some folks make a couple of twists of the bight
around the line before *slipping* it through, to mitigate the
jamming --just got some pics of this in laid PP to tie down
exhibit tents (to those big drums of water (sand?)).  "Really
bearing down" manually on half-inch PP rope doesn't so
much influence it.

That said, the guyline h. looks less than an easy untying
job, IMO --not something I've played around with.  (What if
it were a compromise/hybrid w/trucker's h. : make the
away overhand slipped, and so just the to-be-half-loaded
nearer-to-anchorage one would do the nipping --will that work?

--dl*
====
Title: Re: what knot simulates zip tie behavior?
Post by: Sweeney on July 05, 2012, 02:05:06 PM
I have a feeling sometimes people just post a knot here without much experience using the knot. It's difficult to imagine why anybody here would recommend a Guyline Hitch or a Trucker Hitch with Slipped Overhand. At least there should be a note about the tendency to jam, when there are so many other hitches that work perfectly fine while being easy to untie.

...Maybe I'm just irritated because I still can't untie the Overhand knot in my Guyline Hitch.  :-\

The OP asked for a substitute for a plastic tie which tightens and locks when the end is pulled - there was no mention of trying to untie the whole thing later (unfastening a zip tie is at best fiddly and sometimes all but impossible). I have used the guyline hitch and left it on the cord for re-use rather than untie it  - it was on each of 4 guylines on a child's tent which had none to start with but kept blowing around when unoccupied). Leaving tied is not really an option with the TH and I agree the slipped overhand is a bad idea in that case. It does depend on how much force is applied of course - using this in paracord I found it easy enough to slacken off but I don't think I'd use it if I had to untie it every time (but then again I wouldn't untie a tautline either in the circumstances).

Barry
Title: Re: what knot simulates zip tie behavior?
Post by: knot4u on July 05, 2012, 05:30:38 PM
I have a feeling sometimes people just post a knot here without much experience using the knot. It's difficult to imagine why anybody here would recommend a Guyline Hitch or a Trucker Hitch with Slipped Overhand. At least there should be a note about the tendency to jam, when there are so many other hitches that work perfectly fine while being easy to untie.

...Maybe I'm just irritated because I still can't untie the Overhand knot in my Guyline Hitch.  :-\

The OP asked for a substitute for a plastic tie which tightens and locks when the end is pulled - there was no mention of trying to untie the whole thing later (unfastening a zip tie is at best fiddly and sometimes all but impossible). I have used the guyline hitch and left it on the cord for re-use rather than untie it  - it was on each of 4 guylines on a child's tent which had none to start with but kept blowing around when unoccupied). Leaving tied is not really an option with the TH and I agree the slipped overhand is a bad idea in that case. It does depend on how much force is applied of course - using this in paracord I found it easy enough to slacken off but I don't think I'd use it if I had to untie it every time (but then again I wouldn't untie a tautline either in the circumstances).

Barry

I'm not sure how you're tying your Trucker, but I would be able to leave it in the line if I wanted. Actually, with a Trucker, there seem to be more options. I can leave tied (1) everything, (2) everything but the first anchor, (3) just the Span Loop, or (4) nothing. If I decide I want to leave everything tied, I can remove the rope from the stake by loosening the Trucker Hitch a bit if necessary, or I can leave the stake attached to the Trucker and remove the stake from the ground.

So, the Guyline is not unique in that regard. Based on my observations, the distinguishing features of a Guyline are (1) it's relatively easy to remember compared to other hitches mentioned here, (2) it's simpler than a Trucker, and (3) it's potentially difficult to untie. These features may be desirable depending on the application and the skill of the person. By the way, whenever there is a tendency to jam, it should always be noted and should never be assumed as common knowledge.
Title: Re: what knot simulates zip tie behavior?
Post by: Rich Shewmaker on July 06, 2012, 06:08:50 PM
While it will slip, unlike a Zip-tie, the butcher's knot (ABOK 183) serves a similar purpose. It tightens like a Zip-tie, and holds long enough to secure it with a half hitch. With practice it can be tied quickly.
Title: Re: what knot simulates zip tie behavior?
Post by: Rich Shewmaker on July 06, 2012, 10:25:35 PM
A Zip-tie is used for binding. They often bind wires and cables as in automotive wiring harnesses. They are also popular in law enforcement as back-up handcuffs, again a binding application. That is why I suggested the butcher's knot in my other reply.  The Packer's knot (ABOK 409) is similar to the butcher's knot, but the tautline hitch, guyline hitch, and trucker's hitches are very different and would not serve in place of a Zip-tie.
Title: Re: what knot simulates zip tie behavior?
Post by: knot4u on July 06, 2012, 11:04:57 PM
A Zip-tie is used for binding. They often bind wires and cables as in automotive wiring harnesses. They are also popular in law enforcement as back-up handcuffs, again a binding application. That is why I suggested the butcher's knot in my other reply.  The Packer's knot (ABOK 409) is similar to the butcher's knot, but the tautline hitch, guyline hitch, and trucker's hitches are very different and would not serve in place of a Zip-tie.

Not so fast, before you add the Half Hitch at the end, the Butcher and the Packer are quite similar in function to the Tautline (or Rolling) and the Guyline. You can easily add the Half Hitch after you're done adjusting a Tautline (or Rolling). In fact, before you add that additional Half Hitch, the Tautline (or Rolling) outperforms the Butcher and the Packer in zip-tie behavior.

The Versatackle and the Trucker are in a different class and outperform those hitches in the areas of tensioning and security. Yeah, the original poster asked about a knot that resembles a zip-tie, but the poster is also a novice to practical knots. It's our job to discuss other options that the poster may not even be imagining.
Title: Re: what knot simulates zip tie behavior?
Post by: asemery on July 14, 2012, 06:25:22 PM
The Canadian Jam Knot might be a candidate.  Tony
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qC-GHDkBnXU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qC-GHDkBnXU)
Title: Re: what knot simulates zip tie behavior?
Post by: knot4u on July 14, 2012, 07:48:17 PM
The Canadian Jam Knot might be a candidate.  Tony
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qC-GHDkBnXU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qC-GHDkBnXU)

Well, the guy does worn about jamming. If the user doesn't care, then that looks pretty good.
Title: Re: what knot simulates zip tie behavior?
Post by: Dan_Lehman on July 14, 2012, 09:49:04 PM
The Canadian Jam Knot might be a candidate.  Tony
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qC-GHDkBnXU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qC-GHDkBnXU)

Well, the guy does warn about jamming. If the user doesn't care, then that looks pretty good.

He also says what jams & why, and the user might endeavor
to redress that issue by making the first-tied overhand
something resistant to jamming --after all, that knot is purely
working qua stopper knotp in sustaining the 2nd overhand.


--dl*
====
Title: Re: what knot simulates zip tie behavior?
Post by: knot4u on July 14, 2012, 11:42:31 PM
For those who want more info about this knot from Google, Canadian Jam Knot = Arbor Knot.

EDIT: I'm not so thrilled with this knot. I did some testing in boot laces around pillows, it didn't hold securely where other knots did (e.g., Blake, Tautline/Rolling). That was predictable. The performance of the Arbor Knot depends on the overhand clinching down on the standing end. There's not a whole lot of contact area for that clinching, compared to other friction knots. Maybe it works better in 550 paracord, or maybe it attaching a fishing line to a reel. Who knows? Anyway, I'm not too motivated to do more testing.

Further, although the Arbor Knot is relatively easy to tie and remember, the mechanism of this knot is more complex compared than simpler friction knots. In other words, the Arbor Knot involves a loosely tied overhand making its way up the rope to a stopper knot and then clinching down on the standing end. In contrast, a simpler friction knot (e.g., Blake, Tautline/Rolling) merely involves coils clinching down on the standing end.

In sum, the Arbor Knot offers less security, a more complex mechanism, and an untying process that is more fiddly.
Title: Re: what knot simulates zip tie behavior?
Post by: Luca on July 15, 2012, 02:37:38 PM
Hi

A method I have tried,in attempt to get a meeting point between what is shown in the video linked by asemery and what written by knot4u:
make a loop like this:

http://notableknotindex.webs.com/slippery8.html

performs all exactly as in the left image, but in order to obtain a large loop, and that, what is the SPart in the figure, becomes the tail(reversed version);
continues to hold the loop so obtained in front of you  in the same position as shown in the image on the left;
now rotate the loop in front of you,so that the tail of the loop (the one you just went through the figure of eight) points toward you(quarter-turn counterclockwise looking from above);
pass the object through the loop held in this position;
adhere the loop around the object by pulling its tail in a relatively mild manner(during this step is not necessary that the figure of eight is tight);
Now pull the tail of the loop (which still points to you) with energy, in the opposite direction (see at this point that the figure of 8 tightens and capsizes),until tighten around the object as desired;
If necessary, run a pull too on the other tail,to fix everything well.
In doing so, I think he can quite easily tightening the object  by only pulling this tail, more or less as shown in the video, and that should be quite easy to untie the knot, as is usually the way to being untied the gripping hitches(more or less).
If it is not clear let me know! I'll try to explain myself better, and it remains obvious that I'm curious to know what the limits and flaws of the proposed here.

                                                                                                      Bye!
Title: Re: what knot simulates zip tie behavior?
Post by: asemery on July 15, 2012, 03:40:17 PM

He also says what jams & why, and the user might endeavor
to redress that issue by making the first-tied overhand
something resistant to jamming --after all, that knot is purely
working qua stopper knotp in sustaining the 2nd overhand.


--dl*
====
The figure eight knot works as a stopper and is not as prone to jamming.  Tony
Title: Re: what knot simulates zip tie behavior?
Post by: knot4u on July 15, 2012, 10:08:13 PM
Hi

A method I have tried,in attempt to get a meeting point between what is shown in the video linked by asemery and what written by knot4u:
make a loop like this:

http://notableknotindex.webs.com/slippery8.html

performs all exactly as in the left image, but in order to obtain a large loop, and that, what is the SPart in the figure, becomes the tail(reversed version);
continues to hold the loop so obtained in front of you  in the same position as shown in the image on the left;
now rotate the loop in front of you,so that the tail of the loop (the one you just went through the figure of eight) points toward you(quarter-turn counterclockwise looking from above);
pass the object through the loop held in this position;
adhere the loop around the object by pulling its tail in a relatively mild manner(during this step is not necessary that the figure of eight is tight);
Now pull the tail of the loop (which still points to you) with energy, in the opposite direction (see at this point that the figure of 8 tightens and capsizes),until tighten around the object as desired;
If necessary, run a pull too on the other tail,to fix everything well.
In doing so, I think he can quite easily tightening the object  by only pulling this tail, more or less as shown in the video, and that should be quite easy to untie the knot, as is usually the way to being untied the gripping hitches(more or less).
If it is not clear let me know! I'll try to explain myself better, and it remains obvious that I'm curious to know what the limits and flaws of the proposed here.

                                                                                                      Bye!

Is your word description the same as the pic? If not, I can't follow word instructions for knots. I need a pic.
Title: Re: what knot simulates zip tie behavior?
Post by: Luca on July 16, 2012, 12:10:47 AM
Hi knot4u,

My word description is the same as the picture on the left in the page linked in my post.(I do not know why I had this idea to propose to rotate the loop, perhaps because it was the way I performed this method).
Simply make the loop and pass its tail through the figure of eight knot as in this picture,but as I described earlier( reversed version in respect to the picture).
The tail of the loop(the arrow in the picture)points to left(ever in the picture);
put the object through the loop, take this tail and pull it towards the right in the picture.
Unfortunately I do not have the ability to add photos.

                                                                                                   Bye!
Title: Re: what knot simulates zip tie behavior?
Post by: knot4u on July 16, 2012, 02:44:16 AM
Hi knot4u,

My word description is the same as the picture on the left in the page linked in my post.(I do not know why I had this idea to propose to rotate the loop, perhaps because it was the way I performed this method).
Simply make the loop and pass its tail through the figure of eight knot as in this picture,but as I described earlier( reversed version in respect to the picture).
The tail of the loop(the arrow in the picture)points to left(ever in the picture);
put the object through the loop, take this tail and pull it towards the right in the picture.
Unfortunately I do not have the ability to add photos.

                                                                                                   Bye!

You say it's the same as the pic, and then you continue with an explanation. I just cannot follow word explanations. So, if the knot you're describing is the same as the pic, I'll try out the pic (again). Note Roo already posted it.
Title: Re: what knot simulates zip tie behavior?
Post by: Luca on July 16, 2012, 10:40:32 AM
Hi knot4u,

http://notableknotindex.webs.com/slippery8.html

(re-put the link for convenience)
Perhaps I made ​​too many rounds of words to describe how to use this same knot as a wrapping binder:
do exactly the same as is done in the left image, but keep in mind to leave the loop large enough to wrap the object;
pass the object to be wrapped through the loop;adhering the loop around the object, take care that the figure of eight continue to be visible to you always as shown in the picture on the left,without it tipping over or turns(however, keep everything in the same position as in the image on the left, this helps to understand with the words);
now you grab the tail of the loop (the arrow pointing left in picture),and you pull  it in the opposite direction(right;the figure of eight capsizes in this moment),until that the object will be fully tightened;if necessary, pull also  the other one tail (the SPart in the left picture) to secure good.
Perhaps this method is not much, but maybe can be an inspiration to perfect it!
If you want, put the link of the post by Roo, because for now I have not found.
                                                                                                     Bye!

 
Title: Re: what knot simulates zip tie behavior?
Post by: SaltyCracker on September 03, 2012, 01:20:55 PM
The buntline hitch works. See the thread subject: "Subtle Buntline Hitch"
Check out the photo of 1/5/2011.

Like a zip tie, the buntline hitch does not need to be cinched down in order to hold in a horizontal, loop spreading pull. And, you can further lock it down, a la packers hitch style, with the running part half-hitched over the tag end of the knot.

Few people know what the knot's namesake, a buntline, is. Maybe we should start calling the buntline with a "lockdown" half hitch a "Zip Tie Knot". I've not seen this knot in other than the post above. Some of the responders to that thread came up with a way to combine this with a slipped buntline and slipped half hitch to make make the whole slipped.

Note: The classic tautline hitch works great as a guy line tensioner with the loop lines coming out of the knot approximately parallel but does not hold well when pulled in a loop opening manner. The photo mentioned above shows how the buntline holds.

Also, if the buntline doesn't do the job for you, experiment with a backwards tautline hitch and see what you find.

I haven't been on the Igkt in a while. If I figure out how to embed a link I'll send another post.
Allen
Title: Buntline=Zip Tie - Re: what knot simulates zip tie behavior?
Post by: SaltyCracker on September 03, 2012, 01:24:29 PM
http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=2649.msg15922#msg15922
Title: Re: what knot simulates zip tie behavior?
Post by: knot4u on September 03, 2012, 04:09:23 PM
A Buntline doesn't work properly if the object causes the Buntline to be in mid-air (i.e., where the loop is ring loaded). The Buntline only works where the second Half Hitch is crushed by the first Half Hitch. This cannot happen if the Buntline is tied, for example, around a box and the Buntline is at the middle of a side.

Note: The classic tautline hitch works great as a guy line tensioner with the loop lines coming out of the knot approximately parallel but does not hold well when pulled in a loop opening manner. The photo mentioned above shows how the buntline holds.

Also, if the buntline doesn't do the job for you, experiment with a backwards tautline hitch and see what you find.

Where the knot is in mid-air (i.e., the loop is ring loaded), you're on the right track with the Tautline (or reverse Tautline depending on how you're looking at it). In that situation, I have found a Buntline is exactly the opposite of what I want.
Title: Re: what knot simulates zip tie behavior?
Post by: SaltyCracker on September 03, 2012, 05:15:19 PM
Try it.
Title: Re: what knot simulates zip tie behavior?
Post by: knot4u on September 03, 2012, 05:36:40 PM
Try it.

My explanation didn't work. Let me put this another way: nobody mentioned the Buntline in this thread because it's a no-go.
Title: Re: what knot simulates zip tie behavior?
Post by: Hrungnir on September 03, 2012, 05:44:25 PM
Like a zip tie, the buntline hitch does not need to be cinched down in order to hold in a horizontal, loop spreading pull. And, you can further lock it down, a la packers hitch style, with the running part half-hitched over the tag end of the knot.

My explanation didn't work. Let me put this another way: nobody mentioned the Buntline in this thread because it's a no-go.
Really?

The discussion seems to be directed to guyline type systems.  But if the problem is a loop around a package which is *then tightened by pulling on a free end which then remains tight*, then the solution might be a buntline hitch.  I don't think I saw that mentioned.  I guess my question is: what *then remains tight*?  the loop or the standing part?

While it will slip, unlike a Zip-tie, the butcher's knot (ABOK 183) serves a similar purpose. It tightens like a Zip-tie, and holds long enough to secure it with a half hitch. With practice it can be tied quickly.

Corned beef knot or Packers knot. Depends on the problem really.

We are four people which have mentioned the Buntline in this thread, and I must agree with SaltyCracker.

I've often used the Buntline as a mid-air binder.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corned_beef_knot
http://notableknotindex.webs.com/butcherknots.html
Title: Re: what knot simulates zip tie behavior?
Post by: knot4u on September 03, 2012, 06:14:42 PM
As a mid-air binder, Two Half Hitches easily outperforms a Buntline, and they are basically opposites. Further, there are better options than Two Half Hitches that are discussed in this thread. I don't consider the Buntline to be a mid-air binder, not even remotely. Apparently, your mileage varies drastically.
Title: Re: what knot simulates zip tie behavior?
Post by: knot4u on September 03, 2012, 07:23:31 PM
I've often used the Buntline as a mid-air binder.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corned_beef_knot
http://notableknotindex.webs.com/butcherknots.html

That's rather confusing. We're talking about a Buntline, and you throw up two knots that happen to have Half Hitches somewhere in there. To prevent confusion, let's agree there is one way to tie a Buntline, specfically, ABOK #1711. When I say Buntline, I mean just that, not a similar touchy-feely variation thereof.
Title: Re: what knot simulates zip tie behavior?
Post by: SaltyCracker on September 03, 2012, 07:28:11 PM
Try again. Try a comparison. Make a loop with two half hitches in a piece of small line, say 1/8". Put your hands inside of the loop then pull. The knot will slip readily. Now try the same with a buntline hitch forming the loop. The knot may slip a bit initially but will dog down and significantly resist your attempt to open the loop. Sure, if you pull with full strength it may slip, but then, that's what the half hitch is for.

Go back to that 2010/2011 thread "Subtle Buntline Hitch". The last several entries in that thread show photos of the buntline hitch loop and the way to do the test.

http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=2649.msg15922#msg15922

If the buntline doesn't do it for you, try a backwards or upside down tautline hitch. I.e. take two turns with your initial wrap around the standing part before coming inside the loop with the final half hitch. That knot will hold!


Title: Re: what knot simulates zip tie behavior?
Post by: knot4u on September 03, 2012, 07:39:12 PM
Try again. Try a comparison. Make a loop with two half hitches in a piece of small line, say 1/8". Put your hands inside of the loop then pull. The knot will slip readily. Now try the same with a buntline hitch forming the loop. The knot may slip a bit initially but will dog down and significantly resist your attempt to open the loop. Sure, if you pull with full strength it may slip, but then, that's what the half hitch is for.

Go back to that 2010/2011 thread "Subtle Buntline Hitch". The last several entries in that thread show photos of the buntline hitch loop and the way to do the test.

http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=2649.msg15922#msg15922

If the buntline doesn't do it for you, try a backwards or upside down tautline hitch. I.e. take two turns with your initial wrap around the standing part before coming inside the loop with the final half hitch. That knot will hold!

I have tried several times with many types of cord. What I said above still stands.

I prefer to test knots in real applications, not simulations. As one of many applications, I tied a Buntline around a clipboard, where the Buntline was suspended on a flat side. I could not obtain tension easily. In contrast, Two Half Hitches, a Tautline, and a Gleipnir allowed me to generate tension easily. Not only would a Buntline NOT work well as a mid-air binder in any application I have ever had, but I can simply look at a Buntline and tell it would not work.

I have tried variations of all the knots in this thread, including a Buntline. A Buntline is not even remotely on my list of mid-air binders. I'm surprised I'm even having this disagreement with anybody on this site. This topic is near-and-dear to my heart because a mid-air binder is the type of knot I use most.
Title: Re: what knot simulates zip tie behavior?
Post by: SaltyCracker on September 03, 2012, 08:40:07 PM
The one-way nature of the buntline was not obvious to me at first. Perhaps some of you will find the simple buntline or the backwards/upside down tautline (never seen it published so don't know what to call it) useful. Both work much like a zip tie. You need to hold the knot as you pull it tight but it makes for a simple, an effective substitute for a zip tie.

A zip tie is not used to suspend the article around which it is tied and it provides little, if any, mechanical advantage. As Rich Shewmaker pointed out in one of the posts, a zip tie is typically used for such things as securing wiring and cables.

Maybe we could call the backwards/upside down tauntline the "Zip Tie" knot?
Title: Re: what knot simulates zip tie behavior?
Post by: knot4u on September 03, 2012, 08:57:32 PM
The one-way nature of the buntline was not obvious to me at first. Perhaps some of you will find the simple buntline or the backwards/upside down tautline (never seen it published so don't know what to call it) useful. Both work much like a zip tie. You need to hold the knot as you pull it tight but it makes for a simple, an effective substitute for a zip tie.

A zip tie is not used to suspend the article around which it is tied and it provides little, if any, mechanical advantage. As Rich Shewmaker pointed out in one of the posts, a zip tie is typically used for such things as securing wiring and cables.

Maybe we could call the backwards/upside down tauntline the "Zip Tie" knot?

As a mid-air binder, have you even tried Two Half Hitches (the opposite of a Buntline)?

With Two Half Hitches, unlike the Buntline, you don't hold the knot and slide. Rather, you pull the working end in the opposite direction of the standing end. With tension in mid-air, the first tied Half Half Hitch cinches down on the second tied Half Hitch at the working end. You can really crank down on the tension, way harder than what you can achieve by pinching and sliding a Buntline. The amount of tension you can achieve with Two Half Hitches is not even close. Further, there are even better options than Two Half Hitches.

Also, as a mid-air binder, I'm technically tying a regular Tautline (not a reverse Tautline). It's the forces that are reversed. Like the Two Half Hitches, I can really crank down on the tension by pulling the working end in the opposite direction of the standing end. Again, the last tied Half Hitch gets cinched down by the tension and the initially tied coils of the Tautline.
Title: Re: what knot simulates zip tie behavior?
Post by: SaltyCracker on September 03, 2012, 09:02:06 PM
By the way, I don't teach the buntline hitch to Scouts or... at least not young Scouts or children. I feel it, like the constrictor, strangle, and similar knots, to be more dangerous than most because of its one-way nature. You can't reach inside of the loop and open it up easily.

And, along with other points about rope safety, I always start out knot tying sessions with a caution to never put a rope or line around their necks or that of their friends, pets, etc.
 



Title: Re: what knot simulates zip tie behavior?
Post by: SaltyCracker on September 03, 2012, 09:29:44 PM

As a mid-air binder, have you even tried Two Half Hitches (the opposite of a Buntline)?

With Two Half Hitches, unlike the Buntline, you don't hold the knot and slide. Rather, you pull the working end in the opposite direction of the standing end. With tension in mid-air, the first tied Half Half Hitch cinches down on the second tied Half Hitch at the working end. You can really crank down on the tension, way harder than what you can achieve by pinching and sliding a Buntline. The amount of tension you can achieve with Two Half Hitches is not even close. Further, there are even better options than Two Half Hitches.

Also, as a mid-air binder, I'm technically tying a regular Tautline (not a reverse Tautline). It's the forces that are reversed. Like the Two Half Hitches, I can really crank down on the tension by pulling the working end in the opposite direction of the standing end. Again, the last tied Half Hitch gets cinched down by the tension and the initially tied coils of the Tautline.

I've tried and use two half hitches. Difference is that the buntline provides the one way, ratchet-type effect of a zip tie. It's simple and it works.

I use two half-hitches regularly. However, when I have a zip-tie type application I go with the buntline. Both can be "locked" down with a half hitch, butcher/packer's knot style, but the buntline works well enough most times without giving up the gain and without the lock-down hitch.

I suggest that instead of the two of us continuing to go back & forth on this I plan let it go. We're probably boring the other posters.

Thank you for your input.

P.S. Guess I didn't look hard enough. Ashley's, #1994 (+ #1727 & #2073 added 2012SEP15) shows what I've been calling the backwards/upside down taunt line hitch as "An Adjustable Jam Hitch". So I guess we can't call it the Zip Tie knot... but Zip Tie has a better ring to it!
Title: Re: what knot simulates zip tie behavior?
Post by: SaltyCracker on September 04, 2012, 12:09:56 AM

We are four people which have mentioned the Buntline in this thread, and I must agree with SaltyCracker.

I've often used the Buntline as a mid-air binder.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corned_beef_knot
http://notableknotindex.webs.com/butcherknots.html

Hrungnir,
The buntline in the corned beef knot is used to make a noose by tying it around the bight. That noose then goes around the "object".

I'm suggesting that the buntline be tied around the object, using its one way, ratchet nature to adjust as the meat cures and shrinks.

Funny that others referred to the Corned Beef knot. Several years ago I was experimenting with that very knot when I became aware of the one way nature of the buntline. I even wonder if Mr. Ashley's intention was to tie the buntline directly around the object.

His description is a bit contradictory in that he talks about the need to adjust for shrinkage as the meat cures. That plays well to the one way nature of the buntline tied directly around the meat (object). But then he specifically talks about the buntline being tied about the bight (creating a noose that goes around the meat). Then says that it is the best knot for the purpose. Virtually any of the butcher's/packer's knots would work for the kind of adjustment a buntline noose would provide but only the buntline tied directly around the meat would fulfill the "adjust and hold as you go" requirement and finish off with the half hitch when curing complete.

All that said, I greatly appreciate your supporting comment!

Title: Re: what knot simulates zip tie behavior?
Post by: Luca on September 06, 2012, 11:50:50 PM
Hi Allen,

I've not seen this knot ...

I thought of proposing the use in "reverse" of this knot illustrated by roo on its website, in the wake of the knot shown in the video linked by Tony(asemery)some posts before,for be understood as an attempt to achieve a compromise between the behavior of the knot in the proposed video, and what subsequently explicated by by knot4u in regard to the greater simplicity of the mechanism and the most facilitates regarding the untying of some friction hitches cited by him.
I must say though, that,experimenting  the use,in this way,of the original HFP Slippery 8 Loop with a rope of small diameter (2.5 mm polyester),that also this knot can jam, and also sometimes is reversed in a unexpectedly way, trapping the tail between the wrapped object and the wrapping loop,making it dramatically difficult to untie(I think I was able to remedy, at least in part, to these defects,by doubling, during the execution of the Figure of Eight,one of the two loops that make it up,and that is,that envelops the Standing Part; by making this amendment, or by running a slipped version of  the original Figure of Eight, thus transforming the final product in a quick release knot,the above problem is not presented more).

The photo mentioned above shows how the buntline holds.

I must say that I agree with this: after reading your post, I too have seen that the Buntline Hitch behaves in much the same way: by the immediate fixed  tightening on the object with a single pull,and by leaving the possibility to re-enlarge the loop by pulling on the other end of the rope, a little bit as with the Canadian-Arbor knot shown in the video from Youtube.but even in the case of the use of Buntline Hitch, there remains the problem that the knot can tighten too, preventing the fact that the realease mechanism, which in fact in my opinion still inside it contains, can remain practicable!

                                                                                     Bye!

Title: Re: what knot simulates zip tie behavior?
Post by: SaltyCracker on September 07, 2012, 04:29:23 AM
Also check out ABOK #1727, #1994, & 2073 - all the same knot and the one I'd been calling a backward/upside down tautline hitch. Ashley calls it a Jam Hitch, Adjustable Jam Hitch, and the "opposite of the Midshipman's Hitch." A bit bulkier than a buntline but adjusts and holds.
Title: Re: what knot simulates zip tie behavior?
Post by: knot4u on September 07, 2012, 08:04:02 PM
Also check out ABOK #1727, #1994, & 2073 - all the same knot and the one I'd been calling a backward/upside down tautline hitch. Ashley calls it a Jam Hitch, Adjustable Jam Hitch, and the "opposite of the Midshipman's Hitch." A bit bulkier than a buntline but adjusts and holds.

This has been a long issue that I keep mentioning, but nobody has responded. For a mid-air binder, you have been suggesting tie a backward Tautline (ABOK #1727). However, I have been tying a regular Tautline as a binder, except the Tautline is sliding in the opposite direction making the loop smaller. I can crank down on the tension because in order to tighten I pull the standing end in the opposite direction of the working end. In other words, I have more leverage. The final Half Hitch in the Tautline binder is held tight by the force of the coil, and the knot thereby remains secure. In fact, it's so secure that it really needs a slip in order to untie things. Again, I'm talking about a mid-air binder.

Do I need to provide a pic?
Title: Re: what knot simulates zip tie behavior?
Post by: scouterpete on September 23, 2013, 04:50:35 AM
Before transistors , in the days of nob & tube electronics , the wiring bundles were gathered & tied.                  This is the reason waxed twine was developed . It is also why round nosed pliers were                   made in many sizes . (Retiring Ham radio operators, source for knot tying pliers? )             The packers knot & its relatives were replaced by zip ties.
Title: Re: what knot simulates zip tie behavior?
Post by: Luca on September 23, 2013, 02:26:48 PM
OK,but perhaps you should explain it also to the guys at NASA!( http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4028.0 )
                                                                                       
                                                                                                              Bye!
(http://)
Title: Re: what knot simulates zip tie behavior?
Post by: Luca on May 11, 2014, 11:25:32 PM
Hi xarax,

If you did not like the zip-tie behavior binder based on the Locked Cow hitch, I think this you'll like even less ... and I certainly currently do not like: using it with strings of small diameter, I realized that it may become distorted, capsizing and jamming terribly, and the Locked Cow hitch version keeps more tension in my opinion.
If do you want to lose time the picture is here(tighten a little bit more the 8 component):

http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4885.msg31970#msg31970

Roll up for example a blanket,and pass it through the loop, then grab the tail end in the bottom right and pull it backwards towards the left  ...basically that is all!

                                                                                                                          Bye!