International Guild of Knot Tyers Forum

General => Practical Knots => Topic started by: firebight on May 05, 2012, 02:10:26 AM

Title: Versatackle ABOK CrossRef#
Post by: firebight on May 05, 2012, 02:10:26 AM
Was wondering if anyone knew if the versatackle cross referenced in the ABOK? I looked in my book and could not find anything.
Title: Re: Versatackle ABOK CrossRef#
Post by: firebight on May 07, 2012, 11:35:31 AM
I really did not expect an answer to this question as I did search through the ABOK for some time, but I am really surprised that it is not mentioned in the Ashley book as it is such a useful knot.

Let me ask you this, what would the strength of this knot be? after all, it is self locking, would adding a hitch make the strength better? Sorry I am trying to do some research on this knot and its origins.

Thanks
Title: Re: Versatackle ABOK CrossRef#
Post by: SS369 on May 07, 2012, 02:06:53 PM
Good day firebight and welcome.

The Versatackle has been discussed quite a bit here in the Forum. One such instance is here > http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=384.0 (http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=384.0) .

If you would like more examples, the search function brings quite a few more.
I found no reference to this affair in my my two copies of AboK (hard cover and digital), the closest being the trucker's tie-down. But there are many example of block and tackle usage.

As for your additional question(s): Strength is a non-specific question to me because it , the knot does not make the rope stronger, only weaker. So what exactly do you want to know? And where are you asking about a hitch being added to make the strength better?

SS

Title: Re: Versatackle ABOK CrossRef#
Post by: firebight on May 08, 2012, 12:35:12 PM
I am aware of the link you mentioned and I did read it previous to my post. I was searching for the knot in ABOK and did not find it. Being some 4000 knots in the book, I thought I might have missed it, so thought I would ask here.

As for the strength question, I guess I should have said knot efficiency, usually listed in a percentile like 65%

When I asked about the hitch, I was meaning a safety tie off knot like a two half hitch. The versatackle is supposed to be self locking, but I would feel better tying it off.

Thanks
Title: Re: Versatackle ABOK CrossRef#
Post by: roo on May 08, 2012, 04:05:48 PM
When I asked about the hitch, I was meaning a safety tie off knot like a two half hitch. The versatackle is supposed to be self locking, but I would feel better tying it off.

It sounds like you need to do more testing to cement in your mind the characteristics of the Versatackle, rather than needlessly multiplying knots based on feelings.
Title: Re: Versatackle ABOK CrossRef#
Post by: firebight on May 09, 2012, 01:31:24 PM
Well, gee, I hate to think the response I would have got if I asked a stupid question. Considering the low activity on this forum, I would think one would welcome topics for discussion, rather I got a somewhat snooty response as opposed to a educational discussion.

Pity, I have recently entered the world of knots, and its usefulness as a tool as well as art, was hoping I found a place where I could freely ask questions without being made to feel stupid.

Whatever

Thanks
Title: Re: Versatackle ABOK CrossRef#
Post by: Wed on May 09, 2012, 03:07:43 PM
Please don't feel stupid at all. Ask all the questions you want

But you have to take into account, all individuals that respond. Some are nice and friendly. Some are just pointing things out ...

I won't be the one to give you helpful hints about practical knots, so I generally keep quiet. With a bit of patience, you may get a few answers. From those, sift out the useful bits.
Title: Re: Versatackle ABOK CrossRef#
Post by: roo on May 09, 2012, 03:13:32 PM
rather I got a somewhat snooty response as opposed to a educational discussion.
???
Doing actual testing IS educational.  Why shun it?
Title: Re: Versatackle ABOK CrossRef#
Post by: SS369 on May 10, 2012, 03:11:54 AM
Quote
When I asked about the hitch, I was meaning a safety tie off knot like a two half hitch. The versatackle is supposed to be self locking, but I would feel better tying it off.

Thanks

Hi firebight,

I personally would tie off the versatackle even though it is "self locking. The free end flapping around, depending on your use, could cause slackening of the line and perhaps load shifting. Probably any suitable hitch would suffice.

SS

P.S. The unasked questions are the ones with no answers. ;-)
Title: Re: Versatackle ABOK CrossRef#
Post by: firebight on May 10, 2012, 08:20:24 AM
Thanks 369, in my confined space rescue class, we were taught to always add a safety measure to any knot. What is the cost of a few more inches or feet of rope to ensure security? Rope is cheap, human lives or equipment are not.
Title: Re: Versatackle ABOK CrossRef#
Post by: roo on May 10, 2012, 03:19:06 PM
...in my confined space rescue class, we were taught to always add a safety measure to any knot. What is the cost of a few more inches or feet of rope to ensure security? Rope is cheap, human lives or equipment are not.
This is getting a little off topic, but even in highly critical applications, you're not going to know what backup measures are needed or even effective unless you test them under the conditions you expect.  A false, untested sense of security can kill.  And if your backup measures are unwarranted or ineffective those extra inches or feet of rope could cost you much needed  time as you tie and untie them or it could cost you needed reach.

I often see backup knots that are much less secure than the knot that they're supposed to be protecting from loose flogging motion.
Title: Re: Versatackle ABOK CrossRef#
Post by: Dan_Lehman on May 10, 2012, 05:42:01 PM
I am really surprised that it is not mentioned in the Ashley book as it is such a useful knot.

In citing some apparent history for the Poldo tackle --which
has sort of similarity in being a supposed mechanical-advantage
structure w/self-locking ability--, an Italian knots book I think
touches a time prior to Ashley, but that structure also isn't in
ABOK.

How do you find this structure helpful?  I have a more
ambivalent view of it : it's at times convenient, but is often
a PITA to implement, and often there are simpler options.

Quote
Let me ask you this, what would the strength of this knot be?
after all, it is self locking, would adding a hitch make the strength better?

Well, that depends on how you implement the structure
(not "knot", but a "knotted structure" --eye knots can be whatever).
In most materials, the locking will likely endure through rupture;
perhaps in the slippery HMPE and some other high-modulus cordage
there will be slippage such that adding a hitch would be necessary
to take the structure through rupture.  In the canonical form of a
closed round sling with eyeknots & the wraps on one side, figure
that with most normally frictive circumstances (i.e., of what this
structure surrounds) one should get a higher tension on the
knotted side, but as push goes to shove in a break test there'd
also be greater *mechanical* stretch --i.e., knot compression--
on this side and tension would tend to equalize and maybe tilt
in favor of more on the unknotted side, leading to a break at
double the strength of the eyeknots, or more (as the unknotted
side might hold greater force via friction at the endpoints).


--dl*
====
Title: Re: Versatackle ABOK CrossRef#
Post by: knot4u on May 10, 2012, 10:03:42 PM
I really did not expect an answer to this question as I did search through the ABOK for some time, but I am really surprised that it is not mentioned in the Ashley book as it is such a useful knot.

Let me ask you this, what would the strength of this knot be? after all, it is self locking, would adding a hitch make the strength better? Sorry I am trying to do some research on this knot and its origins.

Thanks

Thanks 369, in my confined space rescue class, we were taught to always add a safety measure to any knot. What is the cost of a few more inches or feet of rope to ensure security? Rope is cheap, human lives or equipment are not.

Hey firebight, and welcome! I intend to help you and to explore knots with you. If I sound condescending, please understand that's not my intent.

I'm realizing now that by "strength", you actually mean "security". I'm sure some people here won't bother explaining the difference because, well, they probably already know what you mean. However, there is an important difference between these two things, and it's always good to communicate with precision in order to minimize confusion. When you included the example of 65%, I was further confused. That percentage is a measurement of strength, but I'm fairly certain that's not what you want us to discuss here.

Security is the propensity to resists knot slippage. I think that's what you want to discuss. In contrast, strength is the propensity to resist rope breakage (e.g., the force at which the rope literally ruptures apart). Strength is more important in fishing knots, where it's important for a fisherman to get as close to 100% strength as possible. A knot only weakens cordage. It does not strengthen it. The knots tied for fishing are rather large and impractical for most rope applications.

To be clear, again, you do NOT seem to want a discussion about strength. At least, I hope not. While strength is something to keep in mind for your knot knowledge, it is not really a factor of consideration for this thread.

To answer your question about security, I personally finish any Versatackle with a tie-off knot, no matter how well the Versatackle seems to be holding. There are numerous options: Half Hitch, Two Hitches on a slip (my favorite), Round Turn and Two Half Hitches at second anchor, or Clove Hitch plus Half Hitch on second anchor, etc. On a rare occasion, I might not finish a Versatackle if, for example, I am in the midst of tightening or loosening the Versatackle.

By the way, a Versatackle is in the Trucker Hitch family. There are quite a few threads about Trucker Hitches. I recommend doing a search for threads discussing Trucker Hitches (and Versatackles). It's not that we can't discuss these things here. It's just that a lot of good posts are already out there and are unlikely to be repeated here. Topics of discussion have included initial anchor hitches, intermediate loops, mechanical advantage, ending tie-off knots, among other topics.

Cheers,
knot4u
Title: Re: Versatackle ABOK CrossRef#
Post by: TMCD on May 11, 2012, 12:28:25 AM
For general use, I would suggest that you utilize the Trucker's Hitch instead of the Versatackle. They're similar in their functions but the Trucker's Hitch is easier to construct and more user friendly at least IMO.

The Versatackle probably tightens or constricts more than a Trucker's Hitch (meaning more mechanical advantage) but I can't think of to many situations where I'd prefer the Ver. over the TH. If I were to glue furniture together or something else which called for tension along that front, then a Ver. would be OK. Of course you'd have to put a towel on the wood or the rope could leave indentions.

I use a Trucker's Hitch to tie my boat down to my trailer and it works wonderful. I see everyone else using straps and those are irritating from my experience. The rope is cheaper than buying straps and it's a delight for me to tie...but you're talking to people who know how to tie knots, most people can't tie a Clove Hitch.
Title: Re: Versatackle ABOK CrossRef#
Post by: roo on May 11, 2012, 03:16:33 AM
For general use, I would suggest that you utilize the Trucker's Hitch instead of the Versatackle. They're similar in their functions but the Trucker's Hitch is easier to construct and more user friendly at least IMO.
A trucker's hitch is inadequate for situations that require incremental or precise tensioning, such as when using a tension tripod to plumb up a post or column in a hole before pouring concrete.  A Versatackle (http://notableknotindex.webs.com/Versatackle.html) placed every 120 degrees around the post allows you to nudge the post any way you need as you establish a fence line, for example.  The superior tension of the Versatackle is an added benefit that keeps the post firmly in place while the heavy concrete is poured and tamped in.  A C-clamp on the post or column can serve as a convenient anchor point for the vertex of the tension tripod.

When using a Versatackle in woodworking, I just use a sacrificial piece of wood to prevent rope marks.
Title: Re: Versatackle ABOK CrossRef#
Post by: Dan_Lehman on May 11, 2012, 08:07:02 AM
Thanks 369, in my confined space rescue class,
we were taught to always add a safety measure to any knot.
What is the cost of a few more inches or feet of rope to ensure security?
Rope is cheap, human lives or equipment are not.

How are you taught to join rope ends?  --perhaps w/a grapevine bend?
What safety measure does the class suggest for that?!

As Roo replied, "those extra inches or feet of rope could cost you much
needed time as you tie and untie them or it could cost you needed reach."

These points are also made by OnRope1.com's Bruce Smith, in
that site's MythBusters collection --and one of that set that
I mostly concur in (and the grapevine bend case is raised there). 

But it's a tricky situation of wanting to ensure safety vs. trying to
instill and demand competence : if you get it right in the basic knot,
why go further?  There is a positive answer to this, but it should
not yield ground to strong efforts to get it right !

Btw, does this class stipulate some set of basic knots for use?
(Typically such classes do, wanting to build uniformity in the
practice --which itself has safety aspects.)  If so, which ... ?


--dl*
====
Title: Re: Versatackle ABOK CrossRef#
Post by: firebight on May 23, 2012, 07:37:41 AM
First, I see what you mean about knot strength VS security. Knot strength as I read it is the breaking strength of the knot in proportion to the rope strength. Say your rope will break at 100 lbs. and the knot breaks at 70 lbs. the knot efficiency would be 70% (I just picked those numbers for ease of clarity). Google yielded this tidbit on knot security:

Quote
Security

Even if the rope does not break, a knot may still fail to hold. A knot which holds firm under a variety of adverse conditions is said to be more secure than one that does not. The main ways knots fail to hold are:
Source of above text: http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Knots/Properties_of_knots

While using Google to find data on knot security all I could find was knot security in medical usage such as sutures. So if I have a rescue line and my line is to short, I would maybe put a bend to attach another rope. So in attached image I made a 2 inline fig8 bend. It would seem to me this would enhance security a great deal, what say you?

Now for your last question, yes we have task books that have to be signed off, one section of the task books was knots, for this particular class we had to master the following knots, tie each one under 30 seconds:

    Figure 8 Stopper
    Figure 8 on a bight
    Figure 8 Follow Thru
    Figure 8 Bend
    Square Knot
    Overhand Bend
    Double Fisherman Bend
    3-wrap Prusik
    Modified Trucker Hitch
    Basket Sling
    Single Loop Anchor Sling
    Wrap 3 Pull twice

Of course we learned many more, but the above mentioned knots were the minimum requirement.
Title: Re: Versatackle ABOK CrossRef#
Post by: knot4u on May 23, 2012, 08:06:43 PM
I like the list. It should allow somebody to accomplish many rope tasks in a safe manner.

=====

I don't like the Two Figure 8 bends in series. It looks like something a novice would tie, with the idea of "just tie more knots." It would be difficult to set right. If there's a slack on one rope between each Figure 8, then that would be difficult to get out and wouldn't get out under load. A better, more elegant knot is one Fig 8 Bend backed up with Strangle knots on each side:

http://ojaisar.org/photogallery/Knots/Figure%20Eight%20Blend_400w.jpg

By the way, a Figure 8 Bend is already quite secure. I don't imagine someone doing anything to it to "enhance security a great deal". It's already there. The Strangle Knots in the pic above just add to the bomb-proofing.
Title: Re: Versatackle ABOK CrossRef#
Post by: firebight on May 23, 2012, 10:06:56 PM
Quote
A better, more elegant knot is one Fig 8 Bend backed up with Strangle knots on each side:

Wow, great insight, and your knot looks much cleaner. I am gonna try that method.

I should point out that in previous training we have different knots in our task list. For example in Wildland fire class, we used the water knot, various hitches etc.

Thanks for the good tips :)
Title: Re: Versatackle ABOK CrossRef#
Post by: Dan_Lehman on May 24, 2012, 05:51:07 AM
Quote
So in attached image I made a 2 inline fig8 bend. It would seem to me this would enhance security a great deal, what say you?

//

A better, more elegant knot is one Fig 8 Bend backed up with Strangle knots on each side

Firstly, please observe that there are two distinct "fig.8"
knot-dressings shown in the two images above --and the
URLink'd one is slightly different in its exact dressing from
the asymmetric one of the pair shown embedded above!
--this so-"easy-to-recognize-that-it's-tied-correctly" knot!!
(And, of the embedded pair of knots, we can't tell which
ends --upper & lower-- are (to be) loaded, which ... tails.)

It would be a worthwhile research project to study various
user who tie "fig.8"s both "re-threaded" & "in the bight"
to see if they end up with the same dressed knot --or not.
(As we see in the examples above, we got botched fig.8s,
by one tying method and even with one tyer!)

As far as elegance is concerned, to my mind the "twin
fig.8 knots"
end-2-end knot has the edge --not much
to simply tying off tails, esp. at such remove from the
base knot (which might be an un-re-tucked thief knot
(pointing out that the fig.8 end-2-end knot can be seen
as a further tucking ... !), and then some tension would be
brought to the strangles).

Note that, in making a "twin" <eyeknot> end-2-end joint,
the loading in the two eyeknot components (which might be
different --not sure how this will affect the elegance quotient   ;D )
will be that of, well, eyeknots, not end-2-end knots.
Here, i.p., there will be the loading on both end-most collars
and so possibly easier untying; possibly greater strength, too.
(But, oddly, in one shade-tree tester's set of results, where
in each test specimen he tied competing end-2-end knots
and then the specimen's ends were tied in fig.8 eyeknots,
(a) the eyeknots never broke/failed; and the
(b) twin fig.8 knots end-2-end knot wasn't as strong
as some others!?  (I.e., it is essentially two eyeknots and yet
it did break, but never did the equal eyeknots of the
specimens' ends break!?  --might point to Knot4U's doubts
about setting with equal tension (or there might have been
some differences; w/o examination of the actuals I cannot
say (though I vaguely recall raising this point and there
didn't seem to be a good answer)).)

Further, as to "this would enhance security a great deal",
in order for there to be a great deal of that, there must be
a great deal to do!  Given that the fig.8 end-2-end knot
is not known to be a security risk, it's arguable that one
cannot make a great deal of improvement.  (And a similar
point can be seen in some cases of strength : given some
85% strength efficiency, how much better can it be?!)


--dl*
====
Title: Re: Versatackle ABOK CrossRef#
Post by: firebight on May 25, 2012, 02:23:34 AM
Well since you learned me :) I been thinking about security. I do realize adding a second knot will not increase strength. An 80% knot with another 80% knot is still 80%

But thanks for your detail.
Title: Re: Versatackle Experiment
Post by: firebight on May 25, 2012, 02:45:15 AM
Not to dredge up this old argument, and I don't wish to start a new one. Out of curiosity I decided to test the MA for giggles. So I rigged up the "2:1" configuration using strictly rope.

Setup Exp 1.
Two 3.5 lbs (7 lbs) on load side.
I then added one 3.5 pound weight on the force end. (No movement of the load)
I added incremental weight until force overcame load.
I ended up using 6 pounds for a MA of 1.16

Setup Exp 2.
Same setup as above but added carabiners to reduce friction (See attached photo).
This time adding 3.5 lbs on the force end lifted the load end moved slow but it did move. So I would say 2:1


Title: Re: Versatackle ABOK CrossRef#
Post by: Dan_Lehman on May 25, 2012, 06:02:16 AM
Well since you learned me :) I been thinking about security.
I do realize adding a second knot will not increase strength.
An 80% knot with another 80% knot is still 80%

But thanks for your detail.

You're right about the adding of knots --the weakest link
is the determinant, not some sum of strengths/reductions.

But you didn't really "add a 2nd knot" to the presumed
basis of a fig.8 end-2-end knot : you changed
the knot to a fig.8 eyeknot (in effect/structure), of which
there are two, efficiently sharing eye legs.  And THAT might
just win you strength over the (single) end-2-end knot.

 - - - - - -

Good to put actual forces in play to check MA.
But I'm lost on what your structure is --I see
too many ends running out of the frame to
understand what's doing what.

Thanks,
--dl*
====
Title: Re: Versatackle ABOK CrossRef#
Post by: firebight on May 25, 2012, 07:31:40 AM
Okay, The setup was kinda long so to get a clear image I had to stand close. I will redo the setup outside for better lighting and get a full length shot. for all I know my setup was wrong. We will see.
Title: Re: Versatackle ABOK CrossRef#
Post by: knot4u on May 26, 2012, 06:32:07 AM
Yes, in a regular Trucker Hitch with all rope, MA will be substantially less than 3:1. By the way, note the nominal MA in a regular Trucker Hitch without friction is 3:1. Who knows what the nominal MA is for a Versatackle? Every Versatackle is different.

Anyway, the option of using steel carabiners/sheave/rings is not a desirable option for most applications. If you nearly eliminate the friction by using a steel sheave/carabiner/ring, then you also eliminate the holding force that allows you to take a breath before you tie off.  That's bad and dangerous, as you will quickly discover when you're trying to bear down hard to generate a highly tensioned rope. It's also dangerous when you untie the highly tensioned rope. I imagine eliminating friction is useful mainly in applications where you're pulling something and don't need to tie off the load, like maybe a tug-of-war, lifting a heavy object, etc.

In contrast, the friction that reduces the MA in an all-rope Trucker Hitch is both bad and good. Yes, using all-rope reduces the MA, but the friction also provides a valuable holding force before you can tie off the Trucker Hitch. This valuable holding force is particularly apparent in a Versatackle. The holding force is good friction that outweighs the bad part of the reduced MA.

There are ways to increase the MA in an all-rope Trucker if you must do so for whatever reason.  There is a thread somewhere on this forum directed specifically toward MA in a Trucker Hitch.

I currently have some Trucker Hitches in my garage that have a nominal MA of 9:1. It's kind of like a Trucker Hitch within a Trucker Hitch. Of course, the actual MA is nowhere near 9:1.
Title: Re: Versatackle ABOK CrossRef#
Post by: TMCD on May 26, 2012, 04:49:27 PM
I wonder how much more MA is generated when you loop the working end twice through the Trucker Hitch's center knot? I've noticed by tying the TH in this manner, you get much more tension and tightening of the whole system. It's very easy to tie off the final half hitches too, much easier than if you just took the WE through the center knot once, which is the traditional way of tying the TH. This manner of tying the TH seems similar to a Versatackle in some ways.
Title: Re: Versatackle ABOK CrossRef#
Post by: knot4u on May 26, 2012, 07:51:48 PM
I wonder how much more MA is generated when you loop the working end twice through the Trucker Hitch's center knot? I've noticed by tying the TH in this manner, you get much more tension and tightening of the whole system. It's very easy to tie off the final half hitches too, much easier than if you just took the WE through the center knot once, which is the traditional way of tying the TH. This manner of tying the TH seems similar to a Versatackle in some ways.

That's a 5:1 nominal MA if you pull around the second anchor twice and through the loop twice. That's up from nominal 3:1 MA. Also, pulling around the loop the second time forms a nip with the first segment of rope passing through the loop. That nip provides the extra friction that allows the easier tie off. So, this configuration provides more MA and more friction for tie off. It's great if you have the extra rope and need to crank down hard on the tension. I call this configuration the Lazy Versatackle.

Again, the nominal MA is for identification purposes only. The actual MA is always less because you cannot eliminate 100% of the friction.
Title: Re: Versatackle ABOK CrossRef#
Post by: knot4u on May 28, 2012, 07:50:34 PM
(http://i1221.photobucket.com/albums/dd468/iq201/Public/Hitch-TruckMA2.jpg)
Title: Re: Versatackle ABOK CrossRef#
Post by: Dan_Lehman on May 29, 2012, 02:23:42 AM
I wonder how much more MA is generated when you loop the working end twice through the Trucker Hitch's center knot?

Use some weights and find out (even to just witnessing the
"moves" / "doesn't move" differences between different weights,
w/o being able to get more precise about where the tipping point
and probable actual MA is) --it can be an eye-opening experience!
(Report your results : open many eyes.)


 :)