International Guild of Knot Tyers Forum

General => New Knot Investigations => Topic started by: WebAdmin on March 26, 2012, 11:42:46 PM

Title: Advice before posting a potentially new knot...
Post by: WebAdmin on March 26, 2012, 11:42:46 PM
Dear New Knot Contributor,

Thank you for the information you're about to give us, and which we hope will be a new knot, as much as you do.  There is great satisfaction in any discovery, and knotting still holds opportunities of undiscovered permutations of cord :)

Before you post, may we please assist you with the following advice:

- If you are merely trying to identify a knot, then please post in a more appropriate board, such as Practical (http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?board=6.0), or Chit-Chat (http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?board=1.0).  We can always move it in here if it is found to be a new knot.

- The best way to describe a new knot is with clear, concise instructions, and photographs (in contrasting cord where appropriate) which show the various stages of formation, and particularly which label or illustrate the standing part and working end.

- If you have already done experiments on the strengths and weaknesses of your knot, please explain what factors you tested and the results achieved; what kind of cordage did you use; what was the original need for this knot, and how did it develop as you tried it out?

- If you have already chosen a name for your knot, then go ahead and use it here, but we have occasionally had new knots whose names got slightly changed from their discoverer's choice, just because of the volume of discussion and the direction it took.

Knot tyers who are examining your knot will not only be checking it in their libraries or their own knowledge, but will also be experimenting with how you tied it, what you used it for, and the ways in which it failed or held.  You can expect some lively discussion around these areas, and again, that can somewhat change the knot as you know it.  Don't be offended, this is part of what all knots go through.

If the concensus is that you do have a new knot, the Forum is just one stage of "peer review".  Members of the IGKT will be familiar with our quarterly publication: Knotting Matters.  If you are only a Forum member, I encourage you to join the IGKT (http://www.igkt.net/membership/index.php), as our worldwide (non-Internet) membership will be your next peer review stage.  The knot will be published in Knotting Matters, and will be reviewed there in a later edition, when there have been comments received on it.

What if it is not a new knot? There is, in knotting circles, the now infamous story of Hunter's Bend (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunter%27s_bend).  This was believed to be a new knot, and was presented as such on the front page of The Times in 1978.  However, it was later identified in a book from the 1950s.  This is one of the things that brought the Guild into formation.

If it isn't a new knot, then you may have at least brought back to our attention a knot that is generally out of use, and helped to create fresh interest in it, particularly in view of the problems that synthetic cordage causes for older knots.

As far as this board is concerned, your thread will be moved to a more appropriate home, such as Knot Concepts/Exploration, Practical or Decorative.

Thank you for reading our advice, and we look forwards to your submission.

Regards

Mrs Glenys Chew
Web Admin
International Guild of Knot Tyers
Title: Re: Advice before posting a potentially new knot...
Post by: SwampRatProductions on April 12, 2012, 06:17:01 PM
To whom it may concern,
Is it ok to post a YouTube vid explaining a possible new knot?
Title: Re: Advice before posting a potentially new knot...
Post by: WebAdmin on April 12, 2012, 06:37:46 PM
Hi SwampRatProductions,


We normally post links to videos, rather than the video itself.  I will check with our Webmistress as to technical isues over embedding a video in a Simple Machines Forum (our forum host).


Thank you,


Glenys Chew
Title: Re: Advice before posting a potentially new knot...
Post by: SwampRatProductions on April 12, 2012, 11:19:33 PM
My bad, I didnt mean embed the vid. A link will do just fine.
Thanks for the response
Title: Re: Advice before posting a potentially new knot...
Post by: SwampRatProductions on May 13, 2012, 02:32:43 PM
Hey guys and gals, I could use your help on this one.
I think I've come up with a "new" loop knot system and would like you to test it out. Things like ease of tying, strength and reliability.
This Variable loop system seems like it can be applied to general use, fishing, boating,  possibly climbing and more

Single Loop, on a bight(2-3 loops), stopper knot, 2-4 adjustable loops, quick release and a joining knot
There are also 5 variations to the base knot that are suitable for small bungie cord and fishing line


Let me know what ya think or if you have any information on a similar knot

Thanks

http://youtu.be/ye19XA0c4Jc
Title: Re: Advice before posting a potentially new knot...
Post by: SS369 on May 13, 2012, 05:06:03 PM
Hi SwampRatProductions,

Excellent presentation! Thank you for investing the life for us.

I have tied this a good two dozen times using the collection of ropes and cords I have and it passes muster with me. I have searched my library of knotting works and don't find it exactly, some close, but no cigar. So I vote it is "new" to me.

I found it fiddly in large rope (9mm-13mm) although it did dress out and hold using my body weight. I feel that it would need another tuck of the tail for me to feel confident (sort of without real good tests) in a life support scenario. So for now I don't recommend it for this purpose.

Using Titan 5.5mm cord (my go-to, fail all knots cord) it held as well as with the other cords, perhaps better due to the stiffness of this cord. But, it was a real bear to untie after stressing it with bouncing body weight loads. This can be said of many loop knots using this cord.

I have not tried the permutations that you have shown in your nearly 43 minute YouTube video, but I will.

You seem to be very comfortable in front of the camera. :-))

Thank you.

SS
Title: Re: Advice before posting a potentially new knot...
Post by: SwampRatProductions on May 13, 2012, 10:12:36 PM
Thank you very much!

Sorry about the long vid but I felt it was necessary to show the whole knot system.
I look forward to more test results.

Thanks again,
Martin Herrera
Title: Re: Advice before posting a potentially new knot...
Post by: roo on May 14, 2012, 07:07:49 PM
Let me know what ya think or if you have any information on a similar knot

Thanks

http://youtu.be/ye19XA0c4Jc
You're severely limiting your audience by posting this as 43 minute video on YouTube.  Would you be open to posting an image or diagram of what you consider to be the best or most useful of these selection of knots?
Title: Re: Advice before posting a potentially new knot...
Post by: roo on May 14, 2012, 07:26:50 PM
Hey guys and gals, I could use your help on this one.
I think I've come up with a "new" loop knot system and would like you to test it out. [...]

Let me know what ya think
I tried the first loop, which I assume to be the basis for the system.  I did my standard seated calf-raise test on some 3/16" nylon, and it produced a jammed knot.  I'm still working on trying to extricate this from my rope as I write.
Title: Re: Advice before posting a potentially new knot...
Post by: SwampRatProductions on May 14, 2012, 07:50:48 PM
No problem, let me see what i can do

Unfortuanly I dont know which knot(s) / variation is the best at the moment , which is why I need help.


I realize you probably only get one knot submitted at a time however this is kinda a package deal. I fear that if I start taking pics of the steps needed for each knot there would be a ton of pics and documentation to read through...probably too much.
I realize the vid is a bit long, lol but it should answer the majority of questions that will be asked and gives much more clear instruction than im capable of writing about.
would it help if i put links in the vid to each knot?


Does this seem to be a new knot / series ?


At the moment the indended use is with paracord.

if you turn the knot over, you should be able to bend the loop thats at the bottom of the knot forward to help break the knot. much like on a bowline. from there you should be able to work things loose.


Title: Re: Advice before posting a potentially new knot...
Post by: SwampRatProductions on May 14, 2012, 08:00:05 PM
*At the moment the intended use is with paracord, small bungie, fishing line slippery line.... Possibly climing rope, though i dont have any of that to test with, nor have i ever gone climbing.
or perhaps more as fixed loop in small line where a knot couldnt be untied anyway.


Title: Re: Advice before posting a potentially new knot...
Post by: SwampRatProductions on May 14, 2012, 10:10:09 PM
Perhaps this will help

Heres a 45second test video that i did. real quick, no audio. it only shows the base knot though and makes no mention of the variations
http://youtu.be/WgXDcZCyz3s

From there if people are interested in the whole system they can view the full video. i've also gone through and added links to the video for each knot. this way people can easily navigate and skip through it
http://youtu.be/ye19XA0c4Jc

perhaps if this thread gets move or a new one created, could you please post both links

thank you ,
Martin Herrera
Title: Re: Advice before posting a potentially new knot...
Post by: roo on May 14, 2012, 11:19:20 PM
Heres a 45second test video that i did. real quick, no audio. it only shows the base knot though and makes no mention of the variations
http://youtu.be/WgXDcZCyz3s
Aside from the earlier issue I was having, I find that the loop fails if you pull on the standing part and the loop leg belonging to the free end only.  Such a loading may occur if the loop rotates around a high-friction object, for example.
Title: Re: Advice before posting a potentially new knot...
Post by: SwampRatProductions on May 14, 2012, 11:45:42 PM
Wow, I hadn't knoticed that! Bummer
Good, now were vetting some where :-)

Just checked.....all.variations seem to  take care of that issue.  Give it a try
Title: Re: Advice before posting a potentially new knot...
Post by: SwampRatProductions on May 14, 2012, 11:51:07 PM
Hmmm.....try that again. Make sure you tighten down the right side of the. Loop. Cause now i can't get it to slip out like the first time i tried. Still a possible issue though
Title: Re: Advice before posting a potentially new knot...
Post by: Dan_Lehman on May 18, 2012, 03:18:14 PM
I have not tried the permutations that you have shown in your
nearly 43 minute YouTube video

Holy Half-Life, Batman!!   :o

As Roo suggests, this is one heckuva lonnnng introduction.
(Joni Mitchell's live "Amelia"s run at about a sixth of this
duration, and will grab me sooner & longer.   ;)   )


Generally, I'm only interested in, and need, seeing the final
knot --not some preliminary multi-minutes of dramatic
preparatory fiddling.  And for this, still shots suffice nicely.


As for the knot more quickly seen in the short video, no,
I've not encountered that previously.  (But, of the myriad
eyeknots I have encountered, this one doesn't look all so
inviting, though is seems to be a not-too-hard-to-untie
fig.8-based knot.  But I'm inclined to reverse the reeving
of the tail through the knot, such that it emerges roughly
between the eye-legs, nipped surely by the SPart.  I might
even (rock)climb with this!)


Thanks,
--dl*
====
Title: Re: Advice before posting a potentially new knot...
Post by: TMCD on May 23, 2012, 10:29:48 PM
I admire your ability to discover a new knot, great job! For me though, it's a little fiddly for my taste and I'm a sucker for the bowline. I just LOVE the simplicity of the bowline and the ease with which it unties even after being heavily loaded. It's very interesting that you were able to design a system of knots, kind of like the Uni Knot in that it's versatile.

Another of my favorite fixed loop knots that gets little play around here is ABOK 1019, AKA the Eskimo Bowstring Loop Knot. It's simple and is stronger than what it gets credit for at least IMO.
Title: Re: Advice before posting a potentially new knot...
Post by: Bob Thrun on May 24, 2012, 05:20:06 AM
I hsve a hard time following knot directions.  I do not even try to folow word directions.  I am not as good as Dan Lehman for looking at a photo of a finished knot from just one angle and telling how it was tied.  I like line drawings, but they take a long time to make.  I looked at the 45-second video.  The fingers got in the way of the cord at times.  It would have been clearer if the cord had been set down at a couple of stages in tying.  Black cord is a poor choice for seeing the edges where the cord crosses itself.  I have  posted some of my photos here and on CaveChat.
Title: Re: Advice before posting a potentially new knot...
Post by: SwampRatProductions on May 24, 2012, 02:33:50 PM
Thanks for all the responses guys !
Perhapse we do have a new knot. If so, what would be the next steps to confirming this?
Not sure if this is possible........I'm going to be teaching a knot tying class june4th. It would be really cool to mention and show my "new" knot system. Any chance of conformation by then?

Keep in mind the knot is mostly intended for paracord. Its other cordage I need your help with.

Yeah sorry about the long vid. If you watch it on a computer, there are now links in the vid so you can jump to a specific knot. The 45sec vid was never really intended to be relased, Hench the poor quality. I only added it so people could get an idea aabout it then watch the looooong vid ;-)  there is also more detailed tying instructions for each knot.

Don't forget to check out the variations as there are probably better than the main knot for diffrent  types of cordage. Also many of the knots, ie adjustable loops, on a bight, can be tied with the variations. So try not to focus on just the forts base knot.
Yeah...I have a hard time following written directions too Bob. I probably would have confused the heck out of everyone if iI were to write about my entire knot series.

Lovin all the feedback, keep it coming.
Anyone have any breaking strength info on paracord or other cordage yet?

Thanks guys!
Title: Re: Advice before posting a potentially new knot...
Post by: SwampRatProductions on May 24, 2012, 02:52:59 PM
Also, just curious,  how often do y'all have "new" knots submitted and or are actually confirmed and put in the magazine?
Title: Re: Advice before posting a potentially new knot...
Post by: roo on May 24, 2012, 04:43:02 PM
Don't forget to check out the variations as there are probably better than the main knot for diffrent  types of cordage.
As you put your variations through various tests, you might look at some other knots as points of comparison:

http://notableknotindex.webs.com/zeppelinloop.html  (Fixed loop, easily re-sizable).

http://notableknotindex.webs.com/slippery8.html  (Adjustable loop)
Title: Re: Advice before posting a potentially new knot...
Post by: Dan_Lehman on May 24, 2012, 07:05:53 PM
I hsve a hard time following knot directions.
I do not even try to folow word directions.
Many traditional (in books) directions are ill-defined
(and sometimes plain wrong, other times incomplete),
so following them isn't a sure path to understanding.
But, of course, not trying seals the deal!

Let's be optimistic, at least in simple knots.

For my indicated variation of the OP's ventures ... :

0. We'll form the eyeknot as though a tying-in to our
harness --i.e., SPart away, eye near.  And the knot is
simply a common fig.8-based knot in the SPart
finished by reeving a bight into it with the tail (as a
bowline is a loop married to a bight).  There
simply isn't much to explain here, vs orienting the
fig.8 and specifying the simple reeving!

For the sake of clockface directions, consider the
SPart's "away"ness to be UP (12:00), et cetera.


1. Tie a fig.8 knot by bring the SPart through
12:00 w/curve towards 7:30 and then turning it
anti-clockwise (on an imaginary circle) to about 4:30,
then reaching OVER itself towards 10:30 ...
and complete the now uniquely defined fig.8

(which, in unnecessary further verbal instruction,
is to turn clockwise from 10:30 to 1:30 going UNDER
the SPart, and now reaching to 6:00 and passing
OVER the 4:30-10:30 (diagonal) part and UNDER
the 8:00-4:30 arc part).

2. Form the eye and bring the tail back on the RIGHT
side to reeve into the fig.8 base at about 5:00,
crossing OVER the arc part and UNDER the 1:30-6:00
part --and running largely parallel to the 4:30-10:30
part--, to then ...

3. Cross OVER & turn around (i.e. cross back UNDER)
the 12:00-7:30 part,

(and now exit between eyelegs, parallel to tail's leg)

4. ... back towards 5:30 passing UNDER 1:30-6:00 part
and over 7:30-4:30 arc (and now the tail's out, reeving done).


Set by pressing down on the turn around the SPart
(the 11:00-1:30 arc) and pulling on SPart, and by
tightening tail.


I've tried this in some tired old, ornery-stiff BW II low-elongation
("static") line, loaded via body weight & bouncing (175#+xx)
on a (crummy) 5:1 pulley.  In this line, the SPart and its
side eye leg aren't delivering too enough force to the
collar/turn around the SPart's entry to make that turn
too tight to loosen --after which there is no further
binding!

Quote
I like line drawings, but they take a long time to make.
Well, especially if one delays beginning!  I've some several
piles of ropes literally "tied up" with "new" knots awaiting
pen-on-paper recording, such that these various things to
try from the Net send me trying to find some uninvolved
cordage to play with --argh!&^$#$@  :-\

Quote
Black cord is a poor choice for seeing the edges where the cord crosses itself.
... as one is deprived of shadows for hints/help.
Sometimes it helps to use different colors in the material
--even though, yes, the illustrated knot is for a single
piece of material-- to show the end being reeved back
into the base.

Ooooo, that BLUE cord --THAT looks good!


--dl*
====
Title: Re: Advice before posting a potentially new knot...
Post by: Dan_Lehman on May 24, 2012, 09:19:58 PM
Also, just curious,  how often do y'all have "new" knots submitted and or are actually confirmed and put in the magazine?
From time to time, Knotting Matters will present some knot
believed (or hoped) to be new, or wondered about.  Consider
that the IGKT itself was founded in consequence of a (mistaken)
belief of a new knot.

I have some thousand or two such knots,
so could do one daily for several years ...
--but things would get *old* way before I finished!

Confirmation of "new" is a dubious thing : we have of
course some well-known books to consult, but most
books copy prior ones and the variety is only so great;
beyond this, one can hope to find in various places in
non-knots-specific literature otherwise unrecorded
gems of knotting variety; and we can know that there
are things done that just aren't recorded.  Ultimately,
one will likely conclude that *new* is not all that it's
made out to be, as a quality.

One can see that you'd like to carry the attribute for
the knots you've presented; others might care less
for that bit, and wonder more about how the knot(s)
work --irrespective of *new*ness!  (And, frankly, if
you've managed on your own to find a great working
knotting solution, that's to your credit irrespective of
whether it was previously known (at worst, we can
decry your research vs. your inventive skills  ;) ).)



--dl*
====
Title: Re: Advice before posting a potentially new knot...
Post by: mercury on February 05, 2015, 05:47:14 PM
Is it possible to move a posting from one section to another? Your post suggests that I would be better posted in another section.