International Guild of Knot Tyers Forum

General => Practical Knots => Topic started by: Mike on February 18, 2012, 04:13:55 AM

Title: Best and quickest hitch for a smooth pole?
Post by: Mike on February 18, 2012, 04:13:55 AM
What would be your choice for a quick and secure way to hitch on to a smooth pole or pipe?   I am looking for a hitch for pulling 20' sticks of copper pipe or galvanized pipe up on roofs.   Right now I am considering using a short loop of small diameter rope or maybe even webbing, and just make a Klemheist and hook my haul rope into it.
Title: Re: Best and quickest hitch for a smooth pole?
Post by: SS369 on February 18, 2012, 04:32:26 AM
Hi Mike,

I think you've hit on the right idea. Most of the easy prusik hitches will work. It is whatever you can tie the quickest since it is work you're going to be doing. Cinch it up tight!

I would choose some soft-ish, adequate small cord for this. 3/16 -1/4 inch

Just make sure the ground-man is up to speed (assuming you're on the roof).
And not underneath!

SS
Title: Re: Best and quickest hitch for a smooth pole?
Post by: knot4u on February 18, 2012, 05:49:20 AM
I'd probably go with a Well Pipe or a Klemheist. They're both simple, effective, and difficult to tie wrongly.

http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1889.msg12943#msg12943
Title: Re: Best and quickest hitch for a smooth pole?
Post by: roo on February 18, 2012, 06:08:51 AM
What would be your choice for a quick and secure way to hitch on to a smooth pole or pipe?   I am looking for a hitch for pulling 20' sticks of copper pipe or galvanized pipe up on roofs.   Right now I am considering using a short loop of small diameter rope or maybe even webbing, and just make a Klemheist and hook my haul rope into it.
I don't think this is the right application for a lengthwise pull hitch, if that is what you are talking about.  Lengthwise pull hitches should only be used on objects where slippage will not be catastrophic.  That is not the case here.   If something isn't applied right, you could drop a pipe and have it crash through a window or worse.  You need something more foolproof.

I assume your buildings are fairly tall if you can't merely hand off 20 foot pipe lengths. 

A quick, safe method would be to insert rods into the ends of the pipe.  They don't have to be tight fitting.  At the center of each rod, drill a hole to help to attach the rope ends.  See the attached image.  The rods are shown in blue. 

After you have it made, there are no knots for the help to mess up.  Just insert the rods, hoist, and remove the rods.  You could even hoist a bundle of pipe at once, if the bundle is secure enough.  A stepped rod or some hose for protecting the rope from the pipe edges would be a nice addition.

Title: Re: Best and quickest hitch for a smooth pole?
Post by: xarax on February 18, 2012, 06:40:01 AM
The best hitch for a smooth pole is the one shown at :
http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=2075.msg16893#msg16893
Of course, it is not the quickest ! What you can use is an auxiliary piece of string, a little longer than the pipes, that can be hooked into the two oposite openings, and be raised by its middle - so the two hooks will not run the danger of slipping off.
Title: Re: Best and quickest hitch for a smooth pole?
Post by: [Inkanyezi] gone on February 18, 2012, 09:24:10 AM
Roo's suggestion may be altered, if the pipes would bend if hoisted horizontally supported by the ends. Then you may instead use one such rod, and half-hitch the rope to the other end of the pipe to hoist it vertically. Instead of half-hitching, you could have a butterfly loop at the right distance, to push the pipe end through before inserting the rod. That might be a bit more convenient, maybe quicker and would need less skill.
Title: Re: Best and quickest hitch for a smooth pole?
Post by: Sweeney on February 18, 2012, 09:51:02 AM
You don't say what diameter the pipe is - if it's 3/4 inch or more then I would use a 20ft+ piece of cord with a loop at each end (only one end if the same cord is used for hauling). Use a small but heavy weight to drop the cord end with a loop through the pipe and slip a toggle through the bottom loop having attached the top loop to your haul rope (unless it is your haul rope). Quick and easy and relatively safe, the weight of the pipe will keep the toggle in place.

Barry
Title: Re: Best and quickest hitch for a smooth pole?
Post by: xarax on February 18, 2012, 02:04:46 PM
if the pipes would bend if hoisted horizontally supported by the ends.

   Then you should tie two loose mid-line loops on your auxiliary rope with the two hooks on its ends, so the pipe would not be raised and supported by its middle, but the two middles of its two middles.

P.S. The solution of (1) that will be posted in the first picture of on Reply#12  :), but with hooks at the ends of the rope, is exactly what I describe here.

1)  http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3794.0;attach=6736;image
Title: Re: Best and quickest hitch for a smooth pole?
Post by: TMCD on February 18, 2012, 04:23:28 PM
Being in the construction trades myself, I would go with either the Pipe Hitch or the Icicle Hitch. Once masterd, both are relatively simple and quick to tie. The options presented to lift the pipes parallel with the ground seem overkill and certainly would kill the clock when you need to get a move on.

The inventor of the Icicle Hitch famously tied himself to a tapered fid and demonstrated it's holding power when it didn't drop him but held him perfectly in place!!
Title: Re: Best and quickest hitch for a smooth pole?
Post by: Mike on February 18, 2012, 04:50:19 PM
Horizontal pull is out of the question as is putting anything inside the pipe.  The copper pipe I use is dehydrated and sealed on both ends until ready to be installed.  Anything inside could possibly contaminate the intended use.

Last night I made a fixed loop of paracord and tied a Klemheist around a sample piece.    It did seem to hold very well.  I pulled on it with all of my strength and it didn't slip any.
Title: Re: Best and quickest hitch for a smooth pole?
Post by: xarax on February 18, 2012, 04:57:37 PM
either the Pipe Hitch or the Icicle Hitch.

The gripping hitch around poles, presented at:
http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=2075.msg16893#msg16893
is superior, by far, to the Pipe hitch, the Icicle hitch or the Kleimheist hitch (to name but a few...)
I have tested all the known hitches-around-poles, and then some, and I know. Of course, I guess that there will be another half century or so, before we. the concervative knot tyers, will re-discover this fact...but this is how fast things move in our forgotten field.   
Title: Re: Best and quickest hitch for a smooth pole?
Post by: roo on February 18, 2012, 05:09:26 PM
Horizontal pull is out of the question as is putting anything inside the pipe.  The copper pipe I use is dehydrated and sealed on both ends until ready to be installed.  Anything inside could possibly contaminate the intended use.
You can use capped sleeves (made from larger pipe) in place of the rods.  I would use a pre-made pipe sling.  Simple insertion and no friction dependant hitches to tie at the time of hoisting will be safer and much, much faster.  You don't have to worry if something slick gets smeared or splattered on the pipe or your rope, either.

Attached are two more options.  You can size your sling as needed to carry multiple pipes at once, if desired.

For midline loops shown:  http://notableknotindex.webs.com/butterflyloop.html
Title: Re: Best and quickest hitch for a smooth pole?
Post by: xarax on February 18, 2012, 05:11:28 PM
it's not a quick tie.

   No, not at all. I doubt that there will be ANY gripping hitch around a smooth pole that would be "a quick tie". They should be based on tying multiple coils, and then taking the slack out of those multiple coils... so any secure, safe gripping hitch around coils would take some time to set, dress and tighten.  The Klemheist hitch, suggested by the author of this thread, is not a quick tie either.
Title: Re: Best and quickest hitch for a smooth pole?
Post by: SS369 on February 18, 2012, 05:12:13 PM
Hi Mike,

pulling on it with all your might means that it will hold - if the normal load is going to provide that much loading. I would, to make sure first, hitch it looser and and tug simulating what you might expect the pipe to "see" as it is being hauled to the roof.

I am personally in favor of the 3 coil prusik and would probably opt for two small slings of suitable cord where the tyer has one ready on the next pipe while the other is being hauled up. Then you could use a larger haul line if you care to.

Or if the haul line is the cord to use only, tie a loop knot of your choice in its end, then tie the prusik around-the-thumbs method, install on the pipe and lift away.

I've used this for hauling gas (black) pipe to a third floor to be cut and installed. It was a workout for sure! Works for lumber too.

SS
Title: Re: Best and quickest hitch for a smooth pole?
Post by: Mike on February 18, 2012, 05:34:04 PM
Hi Mike,

pulling on it with all your might means that it will hold - if the normal load is going to provide that much loading. I would, to make sure first, hitch it looser and and tug simulating what you might expect the pipe to "see" as it is being hauled to the roof.

I am personally in favor of the 3 coil prusik and would probably opt for two small slings of suitable cord where the tyer has one ready on the next pipe while the other is being hauled up. Then you could use a larger haul line if you care to.

Or if the haul line is the cord to use only, tie a loop knot of your choice in its end, then tie the prusik around-the-thumbs method, install on the pipe and lift away.

I've used this for hauling gas (black) pipe to a third floor to be cut and installed. It was a workout for sure! Works for lumber too.

SS

I thought about the 3 wrap Prisik, but I have not tried it yet.  I may give it a shot and see how it compares to the klenheist
Title: Re: Best and quickest hitch for a smooth pole?
Post by: xarax on February 18, 2012, 05:43:05 PM
  What is different in the hitch I had presented - and which will become quite evident after half a century I believe,  :) -  is that the two ends of the coiled structure are tightened together even before the "lower" of them is tensioned by the externally applied load. So any slack is diminished, the coils are kept as tightly wrapped around the pole as possible, even before we hang something from the 'lower" end...
   If we find another, stronger, better way to tighten and hold  the two ends of the coil tube together, that would be an improvement, indeed, over the '"beefed up Glipnir hitch". The only simple way I have found, is to 'beef up" the Gleipnir coil itself, i.e. to use a double inverted Gleipnir coil instead of the single one. This way the Gleipnir tube is longer, and the twisted pair of tails inside it is nipped more effectively.
Title: Re: Best and quickest hitch for a smooth pole?
Post by: xarax on February 18, 2012, 06:29:07 PM
Incorrect... Well Pipe (ABOK #504) can do that, but better and simpler.  In fact, I currently have a pole in my garage being held by a Well Pipe Hitch.
 The coils were pre-tightened and have hardly moved.

   Of course, you can very well pre-tighten the coils by your hand force, without using a knot to do this, and then try to somehow fix the ends together, at the very end of this tightening procedure. However, the tension you have applied by your hands will not be accumulated withing the coils, unless you already have a knot at the two ends, that will prevent any tension applied to be released. And this accumulated tension will thus be maintained, EVEN IF the load at the one end is not yet applied, or it is applied and then released many times.
   One could help in a constructive  way here, trying to find out a more secure, stronger, better way we can tighten the two ends of the coil tube together - and keep them tightened even when there is no force applied to the "lower" one... I am sure there would be other, perhaps better and/or simpler ways... but I myself have not figured out anything yet.
   See the ABoK#1740, and a simple modification of it, for another solution :
http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3016.msg17923#msg17923
Title: Re: Best and quickest hitch for a smooth pole?
Post by: xarax on February 18, 2012, 07:28:59 PM
  The one end/leg of the Pipe hitch (ABoK#504) remains straight, and the other is wrapped twice around it, and so the two half-hitches end knot made by them can not be a tight knot, and can not secure the straight end/leg without any additional pull. The closing of the Pipe hitch is, in fact, not even the one tenth as tight as the Gleipnir coil tube.

P.S. The attached picture from the ABoK has the "lower" and the 'higher" ends inverted, because it shows a pipe hung by the standing end of the Pipe hitch tied on it, and not vice versa. The closing knot that connects the two ends of the coil structure is usually placed on the 'lower" end of the coiled friction hitches - if the hitch is loaded by the hung weight of another body, and the axis of the pole is placed verticaly.
Title: Re: Best and quickest hitch for a smooth pole?
Post by: xarax on February 18, 2012, 07:55:59 PM
   I have actually used the "beefed up Gleipnir hitch" for several different applications. I can say from personal experience that my descriptions of it is accurate - I have tested it repeatedly, and found it much tighter and superior than the Pipe hitch.
Title: Re: Best and quickest hitch for a smooth pole?
Post by: xarax on February 18, 2012, 08:09:36 PM
The Round Turn and Two half hitches used as the closing knot at the Pipe hitch, is not a tight knot around the standing part, if the standing end is not kept under continuous loading. Instead, a loose standing end will slip through the two half hitches, and will feed the coils, sooner or later. So the tension that is accumulated inside the coil tube will be released - unless the load on the standing end is constantly applied.
Title: Re: Best and quickest hitch for a smooth pole?
Post by: Hrungnir on February 20, 2012, 01:22:53 AM
The Kleimheist is a good option, but if you want more security for a little bit more complexity, there is a similar alternative.

The Beefed up KC Hitch invented by DerekSmith:
http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=551

(http://igkt.pbworks.com/f/double%20KC%20sml.jpg)
Title: Re: Best and quickest hitch for a smooth pole?
Post by: xarax on February 20, 2012, 05:50:42 AM
  Something that may have not yet been noticed enough, is that a good gripping hitch around poles should connect the two ends of the coil tube, with a closing knot that would be capable of keeping those two ends tightly entangled - even if there is no load at the standing end. This way the tension forces that are accumulated inside the coils during the initial dressing and tightening procedure can not "escape", and the coils of the coil tube remain perpendicular to the axis of the pole, and firmly wrapped around it even before the loading - and they grip the pole even more effectively afterwards, when the standing end is loaded even more.
   (The hitch presented by Derek Smith is a good hitch when tied around a tensioned line, but not so effective a hitch when tied around a slippery pole. )
   To people that still find difficult to remember how to tie the best gripping hitch around poles (known to me...), mentioned at Reply#4, I propose the use of  a multi-coiled double Constrictor. (See the attached picture). It is almost as good in accumulating and keeping the tensile forces inside the coil tube, and has the advantage of being based upon a well-known-to- everybody hitch. ( For two other, more symmetric forms of the Double Constrictor, see ABoK#1253 and (1)).

1)  http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3174.msg19035#msg19035
Title: Re: Best and quickest hitch for a smooth pole?
Post by: Dan_Lehman on February 20, 2012, 06:14:09 AM
either the Pipe Hitch or the Icicle Hitch.

The gripping hitch around poles, presented at:
http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=2075.msg16893#msg16893
is superior, by far, to the Pipe hitch, the Icicle hitch or the Kleimheist hitch (to name but a few...)
I have tested all the known hitches-around-poles, and then some, and I know. Of course, I guess that there will be another half century or so, before we. the concervative knot tyers, will re-discover this fact...but this is how fast things move in our forgotten field.

1) Please note : it is 'klemheist' --only one "i" ("klemme" meaning "clamp"?).

2) "I have tested all the known ..." !!  That assertion alone is
hard to fathom, as to what all is known.  But where are these
test results for public consideration?  The icicle hitch is said
to grip even a tapered spike; that hitch you show as "superior"
doesn't look good enough to hold on slick pole.

3) "I guess that there will be another half century ..."
because you have not shown your test results (and those
have not been checked by others' testing, to confirm or
contradict).  I believe that Derek tested his hitch to a
smooth pole, with a hydraulic jack?


--dl*
====
Title: Re: Best and quickest hitch for a smooth pole?
Post by: xarax on February 20, 2012, 06:50:07 AM
  But where are these test results for public consideration? 

  I wait to publish them after yours... :)
  As I have said, I prefer OPT...  :) My tests are not at the quality level I would like them to be, so I keep them to myself, for the time being. (However, I always hope  people will not treat me as a liar when I report something - or stop treating me as a liar, as they used to do... I guess I am an optimistic (?))

The icicle hitch is said to grip even a tapered spike;

  "Is said..."  :)  By whom ? Where are his "tests results for public considerataion" ? Did this "who-ever" tested also the hitches I have proposed, and have compared them to the hitches he knew? ( provided he now knows the hitches I have proposed..)

that hitch you show as "superior" doesn't look good enough to hold on slick pole.

"Look" ?  :) Do you judge knots by "looking" at them ?  :) Then, I have the right to question your sight, as you question my word...And to use the exclamation marks the way you did...
It can hold on any pole - including yours - because it can be pre-tightened as much as we can tighten it even before it is loaded - as I have explained many times to "whoever" wishes to listen... And I wait your comparative tests on "knotted materials" tied with those knots. Until then, I suggest you "look" more carefully ! So,yes, it is "superior to the Icicle hitch, BY FAR, as you will be surprised to discover before the end of this half century...

  I believe that Derek tested his hitch to a smooth pole, with a hydraulic jack?

  I do not put a question mark, when I say that Derek Smith has NOT tested the hitch I have proposed, and has not compared it to any other hitches...using a hydraulic or not jack -  just as you, I believe (?)  :).,

 ( It is very easy to attempt to try to diminish the work of others by such "criticism". I wait, and hope, for something more constructive by you. )


Title: Re: Best and quickest hitch for a smooth pole?
Post by: xarax on February 20, 2012, 07:59:40 AM
   I was ready to say just the same thing knot4u just said, but he typed it faster than me... :)
   When we compare gripping hitches ( around poles and/or tensioned lines), we suppose that our different alternatives will use the same number of coils...otherwise our comparison has no meaning. If you wrap a pole or a tensioned line with a rope 100 or 1000 times, it will hold anything !  :)
   The real issue is how we can improve a certain coil tube, with a given number of coils, so it will hold better than another, that has the same number of coils. I have seen that we can accomplish that by pre-tensioning the coils, and by using a closing knot that will not allow the ends to slip through it - so that the pre-tensioned coils will remain in this state even when the standing part is not loaded yet. When the standing part will be loaded, this pre-tensioned ( should we say : pre-stressed , like the pre-stressed concrete ?) coil structure will grip the tube even better, and much better compared to another similar, but not pre-tensioned hitch.
    To achieve this purpose I have used a single or double "inverted" Gleipnir coil, and made the two ends pass through it, be twisted and entangled in its interior, be nipped by the surrounding coils, and so resist to any release of the tension forces that have been accumulated in the coil structure during the pre-tightening procedure. The multi-coils Double Constrictor proposed at Reply#21 would probably do almo st the same thing, and has the advantage of being a well-known knot to most knot tyers.
   I do not doubt that somebody will figure out another, probably simpler, and/or stronger way to accomplish the same means...After the little quarrel we had with knot4u the other day  :), I thought that it would be nice if we somehow could use a (self-locking) trucker s hitch or versatacke knot, so we gain from the mechanical advantage offered there...This way we could pull the two ends towards each other more effectively, so our pre-tensioning would be stronger. However, I was not able to find a clever way to do this, in the limited space we have between the "higher" and the "lower" of , say, the 4 to 8 coils - and in this inconvenient specific place - because the closing knot is forced to be in contact with the convex surface of the pole...
   
Title: Re: Best and quickest hitch for a smooth pole?
Post by: xarax on February 20, 2012, 05:49:16 PM
   A way to improve the pre-tensioning of the coil "tube" just a little bid, is to place the inverted (single or double) Gleipnir hitch at the middle  of our hitch. Doing this, when we pull the one end of the "tube", we have to tighten the one half only  of the number of the coils ( - only the three of them, if we have 6 coils in total, as shown in the attached pictures - ), and when we pull the other end we have, again, to tighten only the other half. The friction forces between the rope and the surface of the pole we have to overcome to tighten each end are, in this way, cut in half, so we are able to convert our pull to internal tension alongside the coiled structure more effectively. If the surface of the pole is slippery enough, and if we can pull each of those two ends forcefully enough, we may thus achieve a more satisfactory pre-tensioning state of the coils around the pole. 
   ( I have to repeat that a coiled gripping hitch can be really improved a lot, if we will manage to figure out a clever way to use the mechanical advantage offered by a (self-locking) tucker s hitch or versatackle knot ( or by any other similar rope mechanism, (1) ) for or purpose : to pull the two ends of the rope that is wrapped around the pole with a greater force, so that the coils will be pre-tensioned, and grip the surface of the pole at an exactly right angle, and tighter, even before the final loading of the hitch. I have not yet found the solution of this very concrete problem, although Ihave tred for quite some time now...It could well be just under my nose,and I am unable to see it.)

1)  http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1870.msg21229#msg21229
   
Title: Re: Best and quickest hitch for a smooth pole?
Post by: xarax on February 20, 2012, 11:07:02 PM
   A not-so-clever - but also not-so-dumb, I hope  :) - solution to this  problem - of how to use a mechanical advantage in order to pull the two ends of the coil tube towards each other - is the one shown at the attached pictures. I use the simplest binder that offers a 2:1 mechanical advantage I am aware of, based upon two overhand knots tied on the two ends - the tail of each one going through the bight of the other.
  ( At those pictures, I show the hitch in the stage just after the pull of the two ends, and the tightening of the coil structure around the pole. After this stage, we can always pass the one of the two free ends through the central "ring", so it will be re-oriented towards the same end of the pole as the other one.)
   The pre-tightening of the coils has also another beneficial effect, that I have not yet mentioned in this discussion. Not only it enhances the friction forces - because the rope is pressed much harder on the surface of the pole - but also flattens more the round cross section of the rope alongside its helical contact area with the pole. So, it is really no wonder that such a friction htch would be able to hold as effectively as it does - and much more effectively than the friction hitches that do not benefit from such a mechanism. 
Title: Re: Best and quickest hitch for a smooth pole?
Post by: Hrungnir on February 20, 2012, 11:21:47 PM
xarax, do you find any of these hitches comparable to Klemheist and Prusik in quikness to tie?

Mike didn't mention simplicity and quikness/easiness to untie, but I would assume that's something he wants in a work situation.
Title: Re: Best and quickest hitch for a smooth pole?
Post by: xarax on February 21, 2012, 12:02:37 AM
xarax, do you find any of these hitches comparable to Klemheist and Prusik in quickness to tie?

   As I have said, any friction hitch based upon not-crossed multiple coils is, in fact, not a "quick" knot to tie... It needs careful setting and dressing, otherwise it will not function properly, because the coils will cross each other, etc.
   The hitch based upon the 'simple-hitch-a-la-Gleipnir" is almost as quick as most climbing friction hitches to set, but, as it needs tightening to gain its full advantage, to complete its tying  takes a little bid longer. That is the price you have to pay, to get a pre-tensioned, tightly wrapped multi-coils structure around a slippery pole. Taking into account the cost/benefit ratio, I think it is worth the added trouble. Also, the multi-coiled Double Constrictor is a relatively quick knot to tie, and it might take a shorter time for people that know/understand this knot to tie it, even than the time required to tie some climbing hitches.
   The other hitches, that would require a tensioning of both ends of the coil tube through the use of a rope mechanism offering a mechanical advantage, require much more time. They are supposed to be useful only when the situation is very demanding - and we wish to make some show-off, and not just wrap the pole with our rope 10 or 20 times !   :)
   A specific problem is able to put our knot-tyers mind in motion, and the results of this motion might be proven to be useful in other problems, in the future. That is what has happened to me time and again, and when a new problem arrives, general solutions of other problems might serve as starting points to fill the dots, and arrive at a new solution, for the new problem. The Knot Land is not a place where some strange species of knots live, independently the one of the other. It is a complex "knotting environment", a sort of a mega-organism where the individual knots are but cells or organs, and where each animal is related to any other...and in order to understand this environment, we have to pay attention even to the most bizarre, lonely beasts...
   We are not just knot-users here, I guess. we do not need to learn only the smallest number of the most simple knots, do our job, and ignore everything else... I want to learn every possible simple knot that exists, and I want to learn them not as a collector, but as a person that wishes to understand the subject he finds interesting...And to understand knots, we have to explore all the interesting knots , not only the knots that answer a few needs, and need only a very short time or understanding to tie!
   I am applying grease and butter and oil on the poles, and see how the hitches I tie behave on those things...  :) Do you think that I am so fool to believe that I might need to adress the problem of tying a friction hitch around a stinky slimy pole in my (short) remaining life ?  :) I am just curious, and I would be glad if I die after  I have met the most effective gripping hitch, even if I will most probably never use it, neither in this life, nor in the other one ... :)
Title: Re: Best and quickest hitch for a smooth pole?
Post by: Hrungnir on February 21, 2012, 12:44:04 AM
   The hitch based upon the 'simple-hitch-a-la-Gleipnir" is almost as quick as most climbing friction hitches to set, but, as it needs tightening to gain its full advantage, to complete its tying  takes a little bid longer. That is the price you have to pay, to get a pre-tensioned, tightly wrapped multi-coils structure around a slippery pole.
Tying knots when I'm a bit stressed, tired, tying it in around an awkward object, in rainy and cold weather, are situations when I do actually find a lot of knots very difficult to tie. They seemed easy and simple at home, but when I'm out there I get easily frustrated when I'm stressed out and in a hurry. The once so easy, simple and quik knots seems complex, messy and slow.

Gleipnir is one of those knots, and that's why I often tie a simple Constrictor even when the Gleipnir would have been a better option. The inverted Gleipnir is even worse. The Gripping Sailor Hitch is perhaps the most effective hitch for a smooth pole I know of, but it's difficult and confusing to tie in situations as described above.

I'm sure the Versatackle-Pole-Hitch would have been great for a permanent application, but tie, pull, untie x 20.... One minute extra is 20 minutes, 3 extra minutes is an hour and time is money (that's how your boss and customer sees it). Was the extra security really needed?
Title: Re: Best and quickest hitch for a smooth pole?
Post by: roo on February 21, 2012, 01:02:30 AM
Tying knots when I'm a bit stressed, tired, tying it in around an awkward object, in rainy and cold weather, are situations when I do actually find a lot of knots very difficult to tie. They seemed easy and simple at home, but when I'm out there I get easily frustrated when I'm stressed out and in a hurry. The once so easy, simple and quik knots seems complex, messy and slow.
Those pre-made, friction-independent pipe slings are looking better all the time.

For those of you who want to use friction systems, I looked up what you need to make it legal per ASME standards.

For this regime, the horizontal clamping force on the pipe would have to be reliably applied at .65*(Pipe Weight)/(lowest expected coefficient of friction).

So, what  is the coefficient of friction?  Wet nylon block on steel is 0.15.  Oily metals tend to be in the neighborhood of .03-.10.  I'm not sure what mud splashed metal would be.

Title: Re: Best and quickest hitch for a smooth pole?
Post by: xarax on February 21, 2012, 01:16:47 AM
The Gripping Sailor Hitch is perhaps the most effective hitch for a smooth pole I know of

I have tried this hitch, of course, and I have found it one of the LESS effective, !  :) Even the hitches in the ABoK are better...You should study the gripping hitches a little more. It is a very interesting subject, and I believe that the gripping hitches around poles or tensioned ropes are the most demanding knots - so they are the most interesting !

and time is money (that's how your boss and customer sees it).

   If you use knots to make a living, yes. I do not sell or buy anything that has to do with knots, and I do not even use knots in my everyday life. Knotting is a hobby, a game, a puzzle, it has no "meaning" or "financial interest", for Knot Land s god sake ! So is golf...What is the meaning of trying to put a small white ball into a hole in the ground, hitting it with a stick ? Why you do not send a servant, a robot, or a trained dog to do this for you ?  :)
Title: Re: Best and quickest hitch for a smooth pole?
Post by: xarax on February 21, 2012, 01:58:18 AM
Gleipnir is one of those knots, and that's why I often tie a simple Constrictor even when the Gleipnir would have been a better option. The inverted Gleipnir is even worse.

Gleipnir is one of the most simple knots we know, even simpler than the bowline ( of which it might well have been an predecessor...). The Gleipnir nipping loop is exactly the same thing as the bowline nipping loop - and I do not believe that you would ever characterize the bowline as a time-consuming, complex knot !
The only, minor, difference is that, in the Gleipnir, we do the most simple, easy thing we can think of, we pass both the tails through it, in an effort to secure them. In the bowline, we became a little wiser...and used only the one end, and a new, more clever invention, the collar. On the contrary, the Costrictor is a complex knot indeed, much more sophisticated in its mechanisms than the Gleipnir !
    Now the inverted "Gleipnir", the "simple hitch a la Gleipnir", is nothing but the same bowline nipping loop, placed in a way that the two limbs of it, when they are being pulled, they can pull/squeeze the loop itself, as a whole, on the surface of the pole...I do not understand why you find this most simple, easy thing difficult to tie, or time-consuming...I guess that it has something to do with the not so satisfactory understanding you have about the Gleipnir and its relation with the bowline nipping loop - and I believe you can very easily overcome this by examining and studying the knot just a little more. I think that if you re-name the Gleipnir as "both ends through the bowline s nipping loop", you will be able to tie it in a shorter time, with ease. 
Title: Re: Best and quickest hitch for a smooth pole?
Post by: Hrungnir on February 21, 2012, 02:01:14 AM
The Gripping Sailor Hitch is perhaps the most effective hitch for a smooth pole I know of

I have tried this hitch, of course, and I have found it one of the LESS effective, !  :) Even the hitches in the ABoK are better...You should study the gripping hitches a little more.
I had it outperform The Prusik, Klemheist, Double Pile Hitch and Rolling Hitch. The KC Hitch was good, but in my brief testing the Gripping Sailor Hitch was slightly better. The KC Hitch and Gripping Sailor Hitch needs a bit more space to "spread" out, before they really hugs the pole.

Perhaps you compared it to other hitches than those, when you came to the conclusion that it was less effective?

Quote
and time is money (that's how your boss and customer sees it).

   If you use knots to make a living, yes. I do not sell or buy anything that has to do with knots, and I do not even use knots in my everyday life. Knotting is a hobby, a game, a puzzle, it has no "meaning" or "financial interest", for Knot Land s god sake ! So is golf...What is the meaning of trying to put a small white ball into a hole in the ground, hitting it with a stick ? Why you do not send a servant, a robot, or a trained dog to do this for you ?  :)
I do actually use knots to solve some problems at work, at home, in the garden, when working out, when I'm hiking in the mountains, solving problems related to my car or when trying to help family and friends. The rope and knots is just a tool, helping me to solve bigger problems. When working on a project (unpaid or paid), you wanna focus on your tasks and being effective. It doesn't matter whether the poles were brought by a volvo or a mercedes.
Title: Re: Best and quickest hitch for a smooth pole?
Post by: Hrungnir on February 21, 2012, 02:20:31 AM
Gleipnir is one of those knots, and that's why I often tie a simple Constrictor even when the Gleipnir would have been a better option. The inverted Gleipnir is even worse.

Gleipnir is one of the most simple knots we know, even simpler than the bowline ( of which it might well have been an predecessor...). The Gleipnir nipping loop is exactly the same thing as the bowline nipping loop - and I do not believe that you would ever characterize the bowline as a time-consuming, complex knot !
The only, minor, difference is that, in the Gleipnir, we do the most simple, easy thing we can think of, we pass both the tails through it, in an effort to secure them. In the bowline, we became a little wiser...and used only the one end, and a new, more clever invention, the collar. On the contrary, the Costrictor is a complex knot indeed, much more sophisticated in its mechanisms than the Gleipnir !
    Now the inverted "Gleipnir", the "simple hitch a la Gleipnir", is nothing but the same bowline nipping loop, placed in a way that the two limbs of it, when they are being pulled, they can pull/squeeze the loop itself, as a whole, on the surface of the pole...I do not understand why you find this most simple, easy thing difficult to tie, or time-consuming...I guess that it has something to do with the not so satisfactory understanding you have about the Gleipnir and its relation with the bowline nipping loop - and I believe you can very easily overcome this by examining and studying the knot just a little more. I think that if you re-name the Gleipnir as "both ends through the bowline s nipping loop", you will be able to tie it in a shorter time, with ease.

I understand that the structure of the Gleipnir is simple and that its structure is related to the Bowline. I also understand that the Inverted Gleipnir is just an upside-down Gleipnir.

However. Tying methods and structures are two different things. I'm able to tie the Bowline with one hand in two motions. I've seen people tie the Bowline with no active hands at all. Just swinging the working end. Is this possible to do with the Gleipnir?  ???

To tie a Gleipnir I put the rope two times around the object. I have to let go of one of the working ends while grabbing the middle of rope and twist it (be careful to twist in the right direction) to make a loop. When I'm not holding the other working end, it might slip off the object and out of position. Next I put the working end I'm holding through the loop. Then I let go of this working end, grabs the other working end and puts it through the loop. Here the working part I'm not holding might slip off (especially if the object is small, short or narrow), which certainly would make things difficult and annoying. Then I let go of the loop and pull both working ends to tighten.
Title: Re: Best and quickest hitch for a smooth pole?
Post by: xarax on February 21, 2012, 02:50:27 AM

I had it outperform The Prusik, Klemheist, Double Pile Hitch and Rolling Hitch.
Perhaps you compared it to other hitches than those, when you came to the conclusion that it was less effective?

 (I do not know what is the "double Pile hitch" (?)...)
  I have compared it with the Blake, and the Ashley s hitches - among them the ABoK#1740 and the little modification of it I had made... And, of course, I always compare apples to apples, that is, friction hitches with the same number of coils.

I do actually use knots to solve some problems at work, at home, in the garden, when working out, when I'm hiking in the mountains, solving problems related to my car or when trying to help family and friends. The rope and knots is just a tool, helping me to solve bigger problems. When working on a project (unpaid or paid), you wanna focus on your tasks and being effective.

  I never use knots at home, I am retired so I do not work, I do not have a garden ( I live in an apartment where people are complaining about noises when I try to test knots... :)). I am not going up on the mountains but only out at the sea, I do not have a car because I live in the city center, my family and friends HATE me when I speak to them about knots, as I always do !  :)
   The knots themselves are my problem, I do not use them to solve "bigger problems", because I think that the problems of the knots are big enough for a hobby - and the big problems of life can not be solved by the use of knots, unfortunately !  :) ( In fact, they can not be solved, period.) My focus is on learning all the interesting simple knots, and how they are related to / transformed into each other.
   So, we are as different as we could be !  :) However, I am sure we love knots just as much as anybody else in this forum, and it is this love of knots that brought us here...
Title: Re: Best and quickest hitch for a smooth pole?
Post by: xarax on February 21, 2012, 03:05:57 AM
I also understand that the Inverted Gleipnir is just an upside-down Gleipnir.

I have not said that... :) There is no "up" and "down" on this hitch, and by just placing something "upside-down" you do not change it ! I have said that ;

the "simple hitch a la Gleipnir", is nothing but the same bowline nipping loop, placed in a way that the two limbs of it, when they are being pulled, they can pull/squeeze the loop itself, as a whole, on the surface of the pole.

  Of course, you are right about the Gleipnir being harder to tie than a bowline...That might be the reason people have discovered the bowline, and forgot the Gleipnir !  :) I was talking about the concept of the Gleipnir, that is more fundamental than the bowline ( and it has no need for the collar). So, conceptually, the Gleipnir is a more fundamental, simpler knot than the bowline, even if it is harder to tie ( for two handed / five digits on each hand creatures ! I do not know what octopuses would have said, if they have discovered the language... :)) I mean, the fact that a knot is simpler than another, does not make it easier to tie...
Title: Re: Best and quickest hitch for a smooth pole?
Post by: Dan_Lehman on February 21, 2012, 07:06:12 AM
The gripping hitch around poles, presented at:
http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=2075.msg16893#msg16893
is superior, by far, to the Pipe hitch, the Icicle hitch or the Kleimheist hitch (to name but a few...)
I have tested all the known hitches-around-poles, and then some, and I know.
Of course, I guess that there will be another half century or so, before we. the concervative knot tyers, will re-discover this fact..

  But where are these test results for public consideration? 

  I wait to publish them after yours... :)
  As I have said, I prefer OPT...  :) My tests are not at the quality level I would like them to be, so I keep them to myself, for the time being.

You may prefer "OPT" ("other people's testing), but your
claim here was different --and needed to be, given it all.
So trying to wave off any serious question is just cowardly,
or what else should we call it?  You, who "know" how "far
superior" something is, yet, cannot say how this rare wisdom
is to be understood?
--in terms of the test method : what materials where used
(hitching & object; cordage type & size(s)); how the various
knots' results were graded/ordered.


One can envision a test device in which the two ends of
specimen cordage are knotted in competitive hitches on
either side of some capstan-like cylinder for simultaneously
pulling each end towards it, wrapping up the line.  Then,
at least in some H1-vs-H2 ordering one might see one
knot yield while the other holds.

Quote
The icicle hitch is said to grip even a tapered spike;
  "Is said..."  :)  By whom ? Where are his "tests results for public considerataion" ? Did this "who-ever" tested also the hitches I have proposed, and have compared them to the hitches he knew? ( provided he now knows the hitches I have proposed..)

The demonstration of this was before a meeting of the IGKT;
it's reported in an old issue of Knotting Matters.  And that
is a point of reference for what the *knot* --some particular
entanglement of cordage to some spike-- can do:  it stands
as a challenge for other hitches to equal or not --just this,
and not some sort of more *transferable* currency of hitch
performance, although it seems a considerable feat.


Quote
that hitch you show as "superior" doesn't look good enough to hold on slick pole.

"Look" ?  :) Do you judge knots by "looking" at them ?  :)
...

Yes, just as you do in looking at your gentle curves
in those hoped-to-be-so-strong end-2-end knots you've
put up --a naive look, devoid of any intelligent testing
to support it (and I know, for I've followed that path,
but have some testing & practical hints of its speciousness).
So, I look at your hitches and try to see how force will
flow into them, on what it will bear, how it might tighten
further, and so on --a looking that bereft of better understanding
is itself only an inchoate basis for judgement, but one that
should be made (i.e., one should make oneself forecast,
to test one's beliefs), in a sort of trial-&-error building.

Quote
It can hold on any pole because it can be pre-tightened
as much as we can tighten it even before it is loaded -

Everything can be <done as much as it can be> --that is
a mere tautology.  But as for seriously tightening some
knot, that will depend upon materials:  manual force will
be insignificant for much rope tightening --quite in contrast
to that in angling knotting, where setting knots to some
50% of expected break strength is sometimes expected
for getting proper results!

Quote
... And I wait your comparative tests on "knotted materials" tied with those knots.
Until then, I suggest you "look" more carefully ! So,yes, it is "superior to the Icicle hitch,
BY FAR, as you will be surprised to discover before the end of this half century...

Such childish replies serve you poorly.
As noted, I look at that (however tightened) wrapping of
cordage you advance and surmise that on loading it will
move on a tapered device and NOT have the mechanism
to increase tightening & thus grip on the reduced-radius
material and so will slip even more, to failure.  Whereas
those knots that feed force into the bottom of a coil can
have some chance of rapidly constricting around such
a tapered object sufficiently to hold.  (Though I remain
leery of putting much faith in them; still, one person
was brave enough to suspend himself by a now famous
hitch.  (In true knotting fashion, some arborist site cites
this performance in promoting its use of the hitch, without
considering that the arborist use is to load both ends,
unlike the single-S.Part loading that gripped the spike!))



Quote
  I believe that Derek tested his hitch to a smooth pole, with a hydraulic jack?
  I do not put a question mark,
 when I say that Derek Smith has NOT tested the hitch I have proposed,
and has not compared it to any other hitches...using a hydraulic or not jack -  just as you, I believe (?)  :).,

No, but what you say raises a question mark in readers,
for there's nothing there, but assertion.  Derek tested ...
in that manner, with that result.  Now, he didn't test
your knot; but how DID you --in what way, with what
materials and what force.  For if all you did was dangle
your empty chair from a water pipe and rouse your
neighbors, we'll have a good idea of figuring which of
the these briefly tested knots has had the real challenge.


--dl*
====
Title: Re: Best and quickest hitch for a smooth pole?
Post by: xarax on February 21, 2012, 02:49:19 PM
So trying to wave off any serious question is just cowardly, or what else should we call it?

Modesty, wisdom... among other things...Iff you do not dare to publish anything out of "cowardly", you should not suppose others have the same motives !  :)
Anyway, I hope I will publish my results as soon as I can... and, of course sooner than 35 years ... :) I will not live so long !
I want to test each knot at least 20-21 times, to its ultimate strength/ breaking point, so that 1 test would represent a 5% difference, and the sample would be reliably large enough. Now, my universal test machine needs about a 2 m length of rope each time, and we have hundreds of bends and bowline-like loops. It will need some time, and some money, to accomplish this task.
Each person has some talents and some shortcomings. I am not born to be an experimentalist, but I am forced to do this dirty job, too, because some people are too lazy, or shy, or what-else, to do or publish their notes, their results...or believe they will better do it in the after life.

--in terms of the test method : what materials where used (hitching & object; cordage type & size(s)); how the various knots' results were graded/ordered.

I have used 9-12.5 mm nylon-based  kermantle climbing ropes till now, but I believe that we should do our tests in a more common and "generic" type of material - so I have decided to go on with 1/2' solid braided nylon - and cheap !  - rope. Any other suggestion is welcomed, of course. The diameter of the object/pole - as well as the sheaves the rope would be wrapped around on the machine - would be 8 and (hopefully) also 16 times the rope diameter, i.e. 4 and 8 inches.

One can envision a test device in which the two ends of specimen cordage are knotted in competitive hitches on either side of some capstan-like cylinder for simultaneously pulling each end towards it, wrapping up the line.  Then, at least in some H1-vs-H2 ordering one might see one knot yield while the other holds.

   I wanted to get rid of the usual problem all the universal testing machines have, that is how to connect the specimen to the two anchor points. I have decided a simpler procedure : I tie the two ends of a 2 m. rope segment with the bend I want to test, and then push two sheaves, around which this loops is wrapped, apart from each other, by the use of hydraulic cylinder(s). It is easy to mark the maximum pressure of the cylinders until the rupture, and then to compare the results. Of course, one can also do the same test with two knots tied on the same two-segment loop, in a tug-of-war type of test...but I am afraid that the vibrations on the rope during the collapse of the one, will somehow affect the other.

[qush thote]
it stands as a challenge for other hitches to equal or not --just this, and not some sort of more *transferable* currency of hitch performance, although it seems a considerable feat.

   For the pre-tensioned griping hitches I am talking about ( even without using a 2;1 mechanical advantage to pull the ends of the coil tube more forcefully ) , this is a piece of cake- and you  should have understood it by now !

   Yes, just as you do in looking at your gentle curves in those hoped-to-be-so-strong end-2-end knots you've put up --a naive look, devoid of any intelligent testing to support it (and I know, for I've followed that path, but have some testing & practical hints of its speciousness.

   Well, I am hoping that I will be proved to be right some day- by intelligent testing, when you will decide to execute and publish them ! For the time being, I am not so "intelligent" - and I am not sure I would be able to become more "intelligent" any time soon... :) ! And if you have "looked" at the "simple hitch a la Gleipnir" - or even the one where the pre-tensioning of the ends is conserved in/by the Double Constrictor- and you have decided it/they will not hold as tight as the Icicle hitch, then you have a very minor, simple problem that can be solved immediately... Buy another pair of glasses !  :)
   I have shown that any gripping hitch where the two ends are firmly entangled together, via a Gleipnir closing knot or any other similar tight mechanism, just because this closing knot can preserve any pre-tensioning of the ends, is superior, by far, than the well-known hitches which do not benefit from that effect. It is an altogether new class  of gripping hitches around poles - but i know there will another half century needed for the conservative community of knot tyers to ACCEPT this...and, fortunately, I will not be living by then ! :)   

manual force will be insignificant for much rope tightening

   Noope ! That is what a naive "look", or though, might suggest, but it is wrong nevertheless. The result of even a manual pull - even without using a mechanical advantage - are impressing ! My theory is that this has to do with :
   1. the sufficient length of the coil tube : the rope has enough room to be elongated sufficiently, and so be tightened effectively all along its length.
   2. the fact that even a minor tensioning has a major effect on the ANGLES between the coils and the axis of the pole. Keeping those angles perpendicular right from the start, is proved to be of paramount importance.
   
   Of course, you are not going to test this by yourself, will you ? It is EASIER to "look" than act - as we all come to know some day !  :) :) And saves you from the "coward" obligation to tell to somebody else - else than yourself - :
"You are right, I was wrong."

As noted, I look at that (however tightened) wrapping of cordage you advance and surmise that on loading it will move on a tapered device and NOT have the mechanism to increase tightening & thus grip on the reduced-radius material and so will slip even more, to failure.

  1. You are wrong. Even a modest pre-tensioning is more important than any subsequent self tensioning - AND the Gleipnir hitch does not exclude any additional self-tensioning !
  2. Try to figure out another, better mechanism to do the same thing, have the ends entangled together, preserve any initial pre-tensioning, while, at the same time, is capable to further tensioning ( by the self-tensioning), when the hitch will be loaded. I am sure you could help here, and figure out another, perhaps simpler and better mechanism to do the same thing...iff you wish to be constructive, and not just criticize easily. I do not say that I am not glad with criticism, any criticism. The fact that someone pays some attention to a knot, even if he does not understand much of it, makes me veeery happy, believe me. However, I would be more glad if I have seen some CONSTRUCTIVE help, some new ideas, some proposals, along the line of though I had put through. I believe in the creative forces the exchange of ideas can generate inside people...but I see no point in quarreling, or arguing about self-evident facts. I do not question the integrity or honesty of any person I talk with, and so I insist the others do the same with me. All this hostility about a simple f... knot is unbelievable - unless we remember that persons are not rational beings, of course...
   You can argue as much as you wish with me, but I am afraid that you can not argue with the knots I present - simply because nobody  can argue with knots...The knots are there, waiting for us, and whoever do not "see" this simple fact, loses the joy of looking at a marvelously beautiful little corner of nature.

one person was brave enough to suspend himself by a now famous hitch.

Well, I did the exactly same thing with myself, the "simple-hitch- la-Gleipnir", and 8 coils, tied around a 3 " pole... Am I brave enough ?  :) Nooo, because I was hung at a 3" height above the ground, the f...coward ! ... :)

Title: A quick to be released gripping hitch
Post by: xarax on February 22, 2012, 04:42:57 AM
   The very tight friction hitches around a pole - capable of being pre-tensioned to a smaller or larger degree - that I have described, are not very "quick to tie"-  but, mainly, once they are set and tightened around the pole, they are not easily and quickly released. I was looking for a gripping hitch that would be very tight, yet it would also be able to get loose in a moment , a "quick to release" hitch - and so be free to slip out of the pole, or let the pole free to slip through it. I think that I have found such a hitch, and I present it here, for further evaluation. I briefly mention the two main advantages of it :
   1. Once the two ends are pulled, it grips the pole surprising tightly - and, also surprisingly, it remains in this tight state, even without a knot that entangles the two ends, and even if there is no additional loading of the ends. This is due to the fact that it incorporates a diagonal element, that keeps the coils tightly compressed upon to their adjacent, neighbor coils. So, when the rope segments of the coils are pre-tensioned by the pull of the two ends, and they are elongated a little bid, the friction forces imposed on them by the neighbor coils do not let them return to their previous loose state.
    2. Now, the beauty of this hitch lies in the quick release trick : We  just have to rotate the "upper" coils relatively to the "lower" ones, and the hitch gets loose instantly ! ( At the hitch shown in the attached pictures, there are three "upper"  and three "lower" coils, but we should better investigate the optimum numbers by testing.)
Title: Re: Best and quickest hitch for a smooth pole?
Post by: xarax on February 22, 2012, 03:40:37 PM
   One might well ask ? "Why don t  you just call this hitch as a "multi-coil Clove hitch? " Well, I have thought of this for a while, but I was not convinced by the evident similarity... As I have said, this hitch works because the "diagonal" pushes the coils the one onto the other, so, once they have been  tensioned and elongated a little, they remain in this state by the friction forces imposed on them by their neighbour coils.This is not happening in the common Clove hitch. Now, the mechanism is different, but ,given the fact that the tying method and the form are so similar, we may well call it "multi-coil Clove hitch" - if "Steroidal Clove hitch" does not sound formal enough... :)  I do not really know, I always leave the (secondary) matter of the "name", the label, to the knot-tying community -  provided the given name is not a totally misleading one.
   I would like to mention that the optimum number of coils is depending upon many things :
1. With a nylon rope, which can be elongated a lot, we need fewer wraps than with, say, a polyester one. Also, with ropes that are very slippery, we need more wraps.
2. On a pole with a slippery surface, it s easier to pre-tension the coils, so we need fewer of them to achieve the same result. On the contrary, on a pole with a rough surface, we may not be able to pull the ends forcefully enough, and elongate the segments of the coils along their entire length. Of course, on a slippery pole we always need more wraps than on a rough one, in general - so those two contrasting requirements need to be balanced.
3. If we can pull the ends, the one after the other, while pushing the pole ( with our feet, for example), at a right angle with the axis of the pole, then we can apply a stronger force, so we will be able to  pre-tension them more, and so we will need a fewer number of them.
4. The "diagonal" should be diagonal enough, that is, its angle should be adequate to ensure that the "upper" and the "lower" coils would be pushed towards each other , so the friction forces between adjacent coils would be sufficient to prevent any accumulated tension from escaping through the ends. So, with a rope of larger diameter, relatively to the diameter of the pole, we need fewer coils - because in such a combination the angle is about 45 degrees -which, as I reckon. is a sufficient inclined diagonal. (See the attached pictures for such a hitch, where two only coils of a larger rope wrapped around in a thinner pole, lead to a 45 degrees angle.)
Title: Re: Best and quickest hitch for a smooth pole?
Post by: Hrungnir on February 22, 2012, 04:04:47 PM
   One might well ask ? "Why don t  you just call this hitch as a "multi-coil Clove hitch? "
Man, this is a Rolling Hitch just with an extra tuck, so it becomes symmetric, and resists pulling in both directions.


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/58/RollingHitch-ABOK-1734.jpg
Title: Re: Best and quickest hitch for a smooth pole?
Post by: xarax on February 22, 2012, 04:29:14 PM
, this is a Rolling Hitch just with an extra tuck, so it becomes symmetric, and resists pulling in both directions.

   I think that the Rolling hitch has rope strands crossed over other rope strands...(1), and work differently. I describe the mechanism of the Rolling hitch, and of other similar hitches, as "the riding turn mechanism"(2). And I have to point out that a single turn around the diameter of a common pole has not sufficient length to be sufficiently elongated with the pull of its end - so it can not be pre-tensioned.
   Having said that, I believe that all the Ashley hitches ( ABoK#1734-ABoK#1746 ) should be re-examined as multi-coiled hitches...and in the light of the pre-tensioning mechanism. I have only studied the ABoK#1740 a little, and with a limited number of coils.(3)

1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolling_hitch
2. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=2191.msg16556#msg16556
3. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3016.msg17923#msg17923
Title: Re: Best and quickest hitch for a smooth pole?
Post by: knot4u on February 22, 2012, 07:06:56 PM
I have started a thread about the theory of gripping hitches in "Knot Concepts & Explorations".

http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3800.msg22285#msg22285
Title: Re: Best and quickest hitch for a smooth pole?
Post by: xarax on February 23, 2012, 03:58:06 PM
   As the parents of the gripping hitch shown in the attached pictures below are published in this thread, I take the liberty to post it here...
   It is a combination of the multi-coiled Constrictor-like hitch, of Reply#21, with the multi-coiled Clove-like hitch, of Reply#39. Each of the two ends pull half only of the coils, so we can overcome more easily their friction with the surface of the pole during the pre-tensioning,  ( as in the multi-coils Clove-like hitch ), but there are two crossing diagonals that squeeze the coils between their neighbours, ( as in the multi-coils Double Constrictor-like hitch ). A very tight hitch, but not easily untied when tensioned.
Title: Re: Best and quickest hitch for a smooth pole?
Post by: xarax on February 24, 2012, 04:11:37 PM
   We have used the Constrictor, the Clove hitch, and a hybrid of those two hitches, in their milti-coiled versions, as tight gripping hitches around slipper poles. We could nt forget the humble Cow hitch, could we ?  :) See the attached pictures for a multi-coil Bull X hitch, used as a gripping hitch able to resist a lengthwise pull. I was really surprised by the magnitude of the tension I was able to enclose inside the coils of this hitch, when I pulled the standing ends perpendicularly to the axis of the pole ( ...using my hand and feet, placed against the pole !  :) ) During/after each pull, it is recommended that one pushes this X "neck" towards the surface of the pole as much as he can, to consume any slag created there.
   I have two more things to mention for this multi-coil Bull X hitch.
1. The long, double "neck" stands in between the standing ends and the surface of the pole, acting as a kind of fulcrum...So, when we pull the standing ends from the one side of the neck, there is a leverage that tends to pull the ends of the coils on the other side more forcefully, while compressing even more the coils onto the surface of the pole at the same time. Those two effects can not but be beneficial to the overall gripping power of this hitch.
2. This "neck", by its mere volume - that can not be compressed -, allows the axis of the standing ends and the axis of the pole, ( which are parallel during a lengthwise pull ), to stay apart at a larger distance. This is good, because if the lengthwise pull is acting from a distance and over this fulcrum, it can not force the coil tube to slip as easily, as if the standing ends were connected directy to the coils themselves.
   I have to repeat that those hitches are not "experimental" at all, they are hitches that are evidently improved versions of other, well-known practical hitches, used from time immemorial. However, I have not tested any of those hitches to the ultimum tensile strength the rope itself can withstand...
Title: Re: Best and quickest hitch for a smooth pole?
Post by: SS369 on February 24, 2012, 05:25:18 PM
One question that comes to mind here with these is: Which line is to be the SP and deal with that ultimate tensile load? In a sidelong pull I think this is important.

I suspect, conjecture here, that the point of failure will be at the "leveraged" area. The squeezing and strain there is multi-fold.

SS
Title: Re: Best and quickest hitch for a smooth pole?
Post by: xarax on February 24, 2012, 09:40:59 PM
Which line is to be the SP and deal with that ultimate tensile load? In a sidelong pull ...this is important.

   I have thought of it, but I was not able to answer this question in any convincing way. When we have a lengthwise pull, everything is different between the two free ends. There is the leverage issue, there is the issue of how hard the bulk of the neck would be pressed upon the coils, and there is also the issue of the wide first curves - because we want the hitch to be as strong as possible, even if we do not plan to load it in the rope s limit...Of course, as in the case of the parent Cow hitch, we can always use both lines as standing ends...
Title: multi-coil DL gripping hitch
Post by: xarax on February 25, 2012, 04:37:28 PM
   As I am afraid I can not wait Dan Lehman to buy a new pair of glasses, or a new camera ( and a new bicycle, which was proven such a dangerous combination of possessing...), I take the liberty to present by myself the "multi-coil DL gripping hitch", a direct consequence of the DL binder (1). ( I do not include here the clever "twist" of the tails, which  is probably not needed much in this particular application - and might even be detrimental to the pre-tensioning mechanism/procedure ).
   I mention that the mechanical advantage exercised on the two separate coil tubes is 4 :1 (almost, because the friction around the bight lowers it a lot - we do not have pulleys here...), which is very  helpful as regards the tensile force we can transfer into the coils. See also the hitch presented at (2), for another solution of the same problem : Figure out a way we can pull the two ends of a multi-coil "tube", using a mechanical advantage - and have those ends somehow "locked" and secured at their final position, so the tension already accumulated within the coils can not escape, even when there is not ( or there s not yet ) any loading of the standing end(s) of the hitch.

1. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1451.0
2. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3794.msg22252#msg22252

P.S. A slight different variation of the same hitch, is shown at the next post.
Title: multi-coil DL gripping hitch
Post by: xarax on February 25, 2012, 09:02:13 PM
   A slightly different variation of the same hitch shown at the previous post. The end(s) of the two halfs of the coil tube are entering through the central bights by passing "under"- and not "over", as previously.
   I use the opportunity to say that this is a rock-solid hitch - something one would need to strangle more effectively the neck of a hostile alien invader, for example  :). I was forced to use a marlin spike to release and untie it ( at least to release the one/first tail of it ), every time I had tightened it using my hands and feet against the pole... I would say that this is a hitch that is capable - by accumulating strong tensile forces within the coil "tube"-  of forcing even the weak versatackle-like self-locking mechanism of the tail- through-two-interlinked-oposed--bights to "jam"- a very useful thing if we wish a very strong, permanent gripping hitch.
Title: Simple, pre-tensioned gripping hitch using a m.a.
Post by: xarax on February 26, 2012, 03:06:07 AM
   Finally, here is the simplest and easiest-to-tie multi-coil gripping hitch, using the mechanical advantage and the self-locking mechanism of the Versatackle knot that I was able to think of. The multi-coil "tube" is continuous here - it is not cut into two halves, like it was in some previously presented, similar hitches - and that may be an advantage, as all the coils are tensioned evenly and at the same time, along the entire length of the tube. The similarity with the continuous coil tube hitch of Reply#26 is obvious - but here we do not have to tie the two overhand knots at the two ends of the coil tube. This enable us to adjust the optimum distance of the two end anchors more easily ( Here, as anchors,  we have two single Versatackle-like opposed bights, instead of two overhand knots we had at the hitch of Reply#26). As we can not possibly know, in advance, how much is this coil tube going to shrink after the pre-tensioning, we have to make a guess at the first time, and then to adjust and re-adjust the end anchors... so they will not touch each other before the end of the pre-tensioning procedure.

P.S. 2012-03-02
I have started a new thread about this hitch, at :
http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3813.0
Title: Simple, pre-tensioned gripping hitch using a m.a.
Post by: xarax on February 26, 2012, 04:29:17 PM
   Some pictures of the same hitch presented previously, this time with the minimum number of coils this hitch can be tied with/on : four.
   I think that, with this small number of coils, it is more effective if tied with/on a nylon-based rope, because nylon can be elognated much more than other materials of similar strength. That is beneficial to the even distribution of tensile (and friction) forces along the entire length of the coiled rope segment.
   
   P.S. I have forgotten to mention that, in sharp contrast with some of the other pre-tensioned hitches presented in this thread, this last but not least one is untied very easily ! We have just to push, rather slightly, the tips of the two opposed bights apart from each other, towards opposite directions, and their grip on the tails that pass through them is suddenly released - and so does the whole knot. This might be considered another great advantage of this gripping hitch in relation to other, similar ones.

P.S.(2). 2012-28-2. I have now read the initial DL post more carefully, and I have seen what I describe at (1). The hitch presented at the post above and shown at the attached pictures can be considered as a "generalized" multi-coil DL gripping hitch, because the possibility of having more than one central wraps, was, in fact, explicitly stated at this post - but I have not paid any attention to it till now...

1) http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3794.msg22402#msg22402
Title: Re: Simple, pre-tensioned gripping hitch using a m.a.
Post by: Dan_Lehman on February 27, 2012, 07:21:59 PM
   Some pictures of the same hitch presented previously, this time with the minimum number of coils this hitch can be tied with/on : four.
Why not three (no completely around, center wrap)?

This structure is more or less what I initially discovered
when seeking some sort of self-tightening/-locking snood
hitch --design goal : attaching snood to thicker, object rope,
both to grip in position AND to stay tightly tied.  (Current,
practical knotting used on lobster long-lines that I've seen
include clove & (sort of) reverse ground-line hitches
with tails reeved through the object-rope lay --simple, effective.
(In my fusion-type : " 'simplEffective' "  ;D  ) )

It was really that way : only after deducing/figuring the hitch
in terms of step-by-step structural desiderata (!), I looked
at the result and only then realized its symmetry (after all,
I was designing for the asymmetric loading of a hitch
--one end loaded, one slack)!  And, so, the notion for a pure
binder was born, and was critiqued/amended to ... :
http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1451.msg10074#msg10074 (http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1451.msg10074#msg10074)


Quote
I think that, with this small number of coils, it is more effective if tied with/on a nylon-based rope, because nylon can be elognated much more than other materials of similar strength. That is beneficial to the even distribution of tensile (and friction) forces along the entire length of the coiled rope segment.

Hmmm, I'm not sure : for one might gain, on initial setting,
elasticity of parts near the hauled-on ends, only to
see that tensional imbalance (friction resisting the transfer
of this tension throughout) move towards equilibrium
by a loosening there and more tension elsewhere.
Whereas with more "static" material, the setting tension
would be more forced around ... ?  (But frictional resistance
could mean simply that one got less movement of near
parts, that's all.)  And the elasticity changes where one
will want to position the bights prior to tightening, as the
movement got must be anticipated, lest bights come too
close together or in some other way out of desired position.

"I'm not sure ... ".

But surely smoother/slicker materials --i.e., less friction--
leads to better-set knots; more WYSIWYG (what you see
is what you get).  Ah, yes, I recall working out such "problems"
on smooth hard poles, then finding SUCH differences in the
rope movement (much less flowing & binding-tightening)
when put on the intended real object, some ground-line rope!!
(My fascination began with what has been called "the ossel
hitch"
, a simple ring hitch in which there is a sort
of *opposed-bights* nipping of the SPart, to keep tightened
(more of a U-turn bight opposing an L-turn of the tail).)


--dl*
====
Title: Re: Simple, pre-tensioned gripping hitch using a m.a.
Post by: xarax on February 27, 2012, 08:24:59 PM
   Some pictures of the same hitch presented previously, this time with the minimum number of coils this hitch can be tied with/on : four.
Why not three (no completely around, center wrap)?

 As I have said, when we have less than two wraps per coil segment, the coils can not pre-tensioned enough - because they can not be elongated enough - at least with this rope/pole diameter relation. I have presented the last pictures at Reply#51 with the 4 coils,  just for clarity. In fact, if we use only two "central" coils, we would probably need a pair of double "outer" coils, too - that is, 2+2+2 = 6 coils in total.

This structure is more or less what I initially discovered

   The "DL multi-coil gripping hitch" is exactly what you have discovered. . ( I have "discovered"  the "simple pre-tensioned gripping hitch using a m.a." by replacing the simple overhand-knot-based binder (of Reply#26) with this Versatackle-like binder). I believe that, when we have more coils, all the known binders, the Clove, Constrictor-based, hybrid, DL s, are transformed to something else, because they can now be pre-tensioned, and the outer coils can squeeze the inner coils, so any accumulated tensile forces during pre- or post- tightening are firmly enclosed inside them.

the elasticity changes where one will want to position the bights prior to tightening, as the movement got must be anticipated, lest bights come too close together or in some other way out of desired position.

   True. I have mentioned that effect, and said that we must adjust and re-adjust the position of the opposed nights a number of times. In fact, the required easiness of adjusting the anchor points of the whatever binder we choose to use is what drove me to replace the overhand-knots binder, of reply#26, with the simple Versatackle-like binder of reply#50

But surely smoother/slicker materials --i.e., less friction-- leads to better-set knots; more WYSIWYG (what you see is what you get).

   True, but also the smoother/slicker materials mean, as a consequence, less friction forces between the adjacent coils. And we want this friction, so our coils retain the accumulated tensile forces during the pre-tensioned stage.

"the ossel hitch"[/i], a simple ring hitch in which there is a sort of *opposed-bights* nipping of the SPart, to keep tightened (more of a U-turn bight opposing an L-turn of the tail).)

   Yes, indeed, there are elements of the "ossel hitch" at the hitches I have presented, and vice versa. However, do not forget the many coils, the extended coil tube, the "torsion spring" that transforms everything, in an entirely new way ! 
Title: Re: Best and quickest hitch for a smooth pole?
Post by: xarax on February 28, 2012, 12:13:57 AM
   Ooops ! Now I see/read it ! I was wrong, and DL was right...for once !  :) Mea culpa.
   In the first post he presented the "DL binder" (1) - which can easily be transformed into a pre-tensioned gripping ,hitch by just adding more coils, as reported in this thread - he clearly states :
   Tensioning this structure puts more into the centre wrap -- which as you see is loaded from both sides -- than in the outer ones; one way to eliminate this bias (vs. just living with it) is to make a full turn centrally, which takes more material and effort.

   He was wrong about the "more effort"- because, with actually much less effort, this hitch, in its multi-coiled variation, can hold much better than many others which use the same number of wraps - but he saw the crucial point : We can adjust the number of central coils, so that the three segments of the coil tube will be pre-tensioned evenly.  Because, in a "generalized" multi-coil DL gripping hitch, we can have a number of outer coils at the one end, ( the "higher" one, if we have a vertical pole), a number of outer coils at the other end ( the "lower" one ), and a number of central coils, in between the two opposed bights. Adjusting the number of coils in each one of the three segments of the coil tube would require some attention to the particular characteristics of the material of the rope ( it would depend, for example, of how slippery it is, as well as how springy - how much it can be elongated) and the material of the pole. Also, it would depend upon the way the load is applied - i.e. on the one or both the standing ends. However, I think that this possibility - of altering the number of coils in each segment - is a great advantage of this gripping hitch, not a nuisance...
    Hic Rhodus his saltus ! This is a knot Dan Lehman should start testing knots - and I mean, testing them repeatedly, and presenting NUMBERS.  :)

1. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1451.0

Title: Re: Best and quickest hitch for a smooth pole?
Post by: Dan_Lehman on February 29, 2012, 08:41:40 PM
   Ooops ! Now I see/read it ! I was wrong, and DL was right...

Finally, something we all can agree on.

 ;)
Title: Re: Best and quickest hitch for a smooth pole?
Post by: xarax on February 29, 2012, 10:06:41 PM
   Ooops ! Now I see/read it ! I was wrong, and DL was right...
Finally, something we all can agree on.
 ;)

  Good try...To cut my sentence in half, where you have had wished it to end... :)
However, I will not let you do it so easily, will I ?  :) My  sentence was ;
   Ooops ! Now I see/read it ! I was wrong, and DL was right...for once !(sic)

   Ooops ! Now I see/read it ! I was wrong, and DL was right...for once !  :)

I know you have some difficulty with numbers...so you prefer to try your hand with words. However, to subtract words, is not only wrong counting, is also wrong wording... :)
(And I wonder if you would ever be capable to say something like this for yourself - at least once...)

Title: Re: Best and quickest hitch for a smooth pole?
Post by: DerekSmith on March 04, 2012, 05:37:47 PM
When I was developing the KC hitch, I deliberately used the slickest surfaces I could find to test the functionality of this knot - I used a slick finish braided polyester onto a high gloss chrome tube -

(http://igkt.pbworks.com/f/KC%20Hitch07%20sml.jpg)

As Dan stated, I tested it to destruction and provided sufficient turns were used to ensure the two anchor turns did not open, then the knot would never slip and always broke at the tieoff point.

To make the knot more practical and much easier to make and use, I mover the principle into the KC Sling hitch

(http://igkt.pbwiki.com/f/double%20KC%20sml.jpg)

Using a 2ft loop of 3mm polyester braid, hold one end of the loop against the pole, wrap the sling three / four times around the pole (tube), then back over itself three times and pass the remainder of the sling through the starting end of loop.  Close all the wraps up snug and take up the slack.

In working use, I would then Larks foot the sling onto my hauling rope.

Ultra easy to remember, ultra easy to make, and because it hardly qualifies as a knot - it is only wraps afterall, it is ultra easy to 'untie'.

In real world usage of course, the loading force is going to be all over the place, both in terms of magnitude and direction, and may even have to cope with jerking and flogging.  To simulate this, I made the KC Sling hitch onto new 15mm copper tubing using 3mm polyester braid.  The shiny copper tube had a surprisingly high CF, and only the first loop needed to open to create the necessary grip to hold the tube.  I then yanked, flogged/bounced the pipe to see if I could induce it to 'walk' along the pipe.  After about ten minutes of exertion the hitch had remained stubbornly in place.  I think this is because the moment any tension is applied, the first coil opens and creates tension which automatically grips the pipe and so establishes a positive feedback of tension - grip - greater tension - greater grip etc.

When it comes to wet, muddy pipes etc, an interesting phenomenon occurs with the KC Hitch.  Because of its design, no drag force is transferred to the anchor coils of the hitch, but the full tension developed in the cord as the coils are forced open, is expressed through the cord to these anchor coils.  You can feel this by loading the hitch and then seeing how hard the cord has become in the anchor turns.  This 'inwards force' is very effective at squeezing mud / water etc out from between the cord and the pipe and so recovering the CF.

Of course, if the pipes are covered in grease (which is going to lubricate the surface even at the molecular level), then more and more coils are going to slide open in order to develop the necessary gripping force and if the force needed to grip the pipe is excessively high, the cord will snap before it manages to sufficiently amplify the force to grip the pipe (remember, the leverage is almost infinite as a coil starts to open).

As an aside, in the UK tube come in bundles of ten, capped and strapped.  This bundle has lots of high spots and intervening gaps and is a challenge for any gripping hitch.  But the KC Slinghitch grabbed hold and only opened the first coil before it had developed enough frictional grip to hold the weight of the ten 3m lengths of tube.

Derek
Title: Re: Best and quickest hitch for a smooth pole?
Post by: xarax on March 04, 2012, 09:17:25 PM
I tested it to destruction and provided sufficient turns were used to ensure the two anchor turns did not open then the knot would never slip and always broke at the tie off point.

Do you remember the number of turns ( and the diameters of the rope and the pole ) ?
I believe that, if we would like to compare apples to apples, we should compare friction hitches with the same number of turns - because this is the most characteristic aspect of them. The rest structure is more or less auxiliary, to help those turns be positioned in the more effective way along the pole.

Using a 2ft loop of 3mm polyester braid, hold one end of the loop against the pole, wrap the sling three / four times around the pole (tube), then back over itself three times and pass the remainder of the sling through the starting end of loop.  Close all the wraps up snug and take up the slack.

Was this hitch tight enough to hold fast on a stainless steel pole, until the rope itself broke somewhere ? What was the maximum load it was holding at the moment of rupture ?

it hardly qualifies as a knot - it is only wraps after all.

  So what ? Should a "knot" have something more, than this knot does not have ? It is a knot, made of many of the "knot elements" I call "riding turns" - AND has this "closure" bight that helps the standing end to close the coil "tube" and re-oriented  to a direction parallel to the axis of the pole . ( The rat-tail stopper does have a pair of interlinked nipping loops or a square knot in the place where your knot has this closure bight.)
  I have seen that even a double, crossed coils nipping loop can be considered as an "element of knot", or, indeed, a knot - because it is all a end-of-line loop needs on its standing part to hold the tail, to a surprising effective degree.

remember, the leverage is almost infinite as a coil starts to open.

Nooo !  :) If that was the case, the rope itself would have evaporated long before the leverage reaches "almost infinity" !
Title: Re: Best and quickest hitch for a smooth pole?
Post by: Dan_Lehman on March 04, 2012, 09:34:43 PM
When I was developing the KC hitch, I deliberately used the slickest surfaces I could find to test the functionality of this knot - I used a slick finish braided polyester onto a high gloss chrome tube -

As Dan stated, I tested it to destruction and provided sufficient turns were used to ensure the two anchor turns did not open, then the knot would never slip and always broke at the tieoff point.

Whoa, when Xarax demands OPT results, he is NOT looking
for ones that shatter his delusions of grandeur for his own
knotted structures!

Quote from: Xarax
(The hitch presented by Derek Smith is a good hitch when tied around a tensioned line,
but not so effective a hitch when tied around a slippery pole. )

Of course, we have not seen the OP's (or OPT's) test results
that support this claim.  In light of the KC hitch's holding, w/o
slippage, to break, it's hard to conceive of how that is "not so
effective" --and what any more "effective" behavior would be!


--dl*
====
Title: Re: Best and quickest hitch for a smooth pole?
Post by: xarax on March 04, 2012, 10:33:48 PM
Whoa, when Xarax demands OPT results, he is NOT looking
for ones that shatter his delusions of grandeur for his own
knotted structures!

I do not reply to such...

( I will enjoy the ammunity brave Dan Lehman has to say anything he wishes against anybody, because it tells me some lessons of life that is worth infinetelly more than any f...knot.)
Title: Re: Best and quickest hitch for a smooth pole?
Post by: DerekSmith on March 05, 2012, 06:15:24 PM

Do you remember the number of turns ( and the diameters of the rope and the pole ) ?
I believe that, if we would like to compare apples to apples, we should compare friction hitches with the same number of turns - because this is the most characteristic aspect of them. The rest structure is more or less auxiliary,

Yes, I have this recorded, but it is of no value to report it here because every rope/pole combination would be different.  Remember, this is a scissor hitch, designed to expand under load in order to create the gripping tension and specified as requiring sufficient turns such that at least the last two turns should not open under the maximum desired load.  This means that by the comparison criterion you propose, the KC hitch is a family of hitches based on how many turns it is made with.  Either that or the KC is so different from the rest of the hitches that it simply does not fit into this classification system.

This particular combination of solid core braided polyester with its very high elasticity (60% extension before breaking) and very low CF against high gloss chrome plated steel tube was a massive challenge.  At three turns it slid, at four turns it held but the last coils were showing signs of opening, but at five turns it took full load to failure.

Quote
Was this hitch tight enough to hold fast on a stainless steel pole, until the rope itself broke somewhere ? What was the maximum load it was holding at the moment of rupture ?

I do not measure failure load, but cord elongation suggested it was ca 60% of cord rated failure.  I have found that stainless steel has a higher CF than high gloss chrome, but I think this would depend totally on the metal finish.

Quote
Quote from: DerekSmith on March 04, 2012, 05:37:47 PM

    remember, the leverage is almost infinite as a coil starts to open.


Nooo !  :) If that was the case, the rope itself would have evaporated long before the leverage reaches "almost infinity" !

Infinite leverage is not infinite force, plus, the leverage quickly drops as the coils progressively open.  This in itself is a disadvantage of the KC with highly elastic cordage as it could stretch without building up large forces.

Derek