International Guild of Knot Tyers Forum

General => Practical Knots => Topic started by: roo on February 10, 2012, 05:56:12 PM

Title: A noose-like hitch that can be untied after hard strain
Post by: roo on February 10, 2012, 05:56:12 PM
I was searching for a non-slipped noose-like hitch (only one pass around the object) that collapses and squeezes the object, but can be untied after heavy load while having good to excellent security.  So, I've been testing this simple hitch shown in the link, which starts out with a half hitch, and the chases the standing part back through the half hitch.

I'm still evaluating it (and its variations), but I'd thought I'd show it  to get comments. 

Update:  http://notableknotindex.webs.com/gnathitch.html
Title: Re: A noose-like hitch that can be untied after hard strain
Post by: knot4u on February 10, 2012, 07:30:23 PM
It's a Marlinspike Hitch in which the standing end operates as the spike. That's nifty.
Title: Re: A noose-like hitch that can be untied after hard strain
Post by: xarax on February 10, 2012, 07:43:42 PM
   The hitch presented does not have an "excellent" security (of course !), but I am afraid that it does not has even a "good" security ... :) However, when pressed upon the surface of the object, we may say that it is not bad...
   The most simple noose-hitch with a "good" security indeed I know is the  Constrictor-around-the-standing-part noose-hitch, that I have also called the "Buntline extinguisher" (1) :) . It requires no more tying steps and tucks than the well-known Buntline hitch, but it is much better.
    However, when I was investigating  how a hitch based on the Pretzel 1 mi line bend (2) would capsize if/when the tail would be untucked once, I have met a most simple hitch, based upon a simple overhand knot ( shown at the attached picture.) I saw that this hitch had a satisfactory security, given its most simple form...As it reminds the hitch presented in this thread, I thought it would be interesting to compare them here...
   (If we allow the line to make two  turns around the object, the hitch presented at (3) is also very interesting, and quite secure.)

1) http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3133
2) http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3020.msg22053#msg22053
3) http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3197.msg19074#msg19074
Title: Re: A noose-like hitch that can be untied after hard strain
Post by: roo on February 10, 2012, 07:54:30 PM
   The hitch presented does not have an "excellent" security (of course !), but I am afraid that it does not has even a "good" security ... :) However, when pressed upon the surface of the object, we may say that it is not bad...
The hitch is intended to collapse against the object (hence the "squeezes" comment).  If you have some issue with the security of this hitch in its intended configuration, please let me know with a specific, concrete description of the problem.
Title: Re: A noose-like hitch that can be untied after hard strain
Post by: xarax on February 10, 2012, 08:11:01 PM
The hitch is intended to collapse against the object (hence the "squeezing" comment). 

   Then it is not bad...but I am not sure it is "good" either ! I believe the security of all the other hitches I have mentioned is noticeably higher . When I want to compare the security of two knots, I often tie them both with/on a monofilament fishing line, and watch how easily they slip there, and which slips first or more than the other...( One can enhance or deteriorate the security of a knot tied on a monofilament nylon fishing line, by some powder or greasy substance, so that the relative effects would be more pronounced.)

P.S. The Constrictor-based hitch mentioned in my previous post has yet another form, reported at (1) and shown as a picture at  (2).
1)  http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3020.msg21718#msg21718
2)  http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3020.msg21738#msg21738

Title: Re: A noose-like hitch that can be untied after hard strain
Post by: roo on February 10, 2012, 08:14:39 PM
   Then it is not bad...but I am not sure it is "good" either ! I believe the security of all the other hitches I have mentioned is noticeably higher . When I want to compare the security of two knots, I often tie them both with/on a monofilament fishing line, and watch how easily they slip there, and which slips first or more than the other...( One can enhance or deteriorate the security of a knot tied on a monofilament nylon fishing line, by some powder or greasy substance, so that the relative effects would be more pronounced.)
This hitch is intended for rope.  A more relevant test would be slack shaking, flogging or repetitive bouncing with different rope types after setting the hitch.

Title: Re: A noose-like hitch that can be untied after hard strain
Post by: knot4u on February 10, 2012, 08:21:32 PM
It behaves like a Marlinspike Hitch, which doesn't slip if dressed correctly. So, I'm curious to know, Xarax, how exactly did this hitch slip on you?

When I want to compare the security of two knots, I often tie them both with/on a monofilament fishing line, and watch how easily they slip there, and which slips first or more than the other...

That seems awkward to me, given the physics of monofilament are substantially different. How does a Round Turn and Two Half Hitches work out for you in monofilament? There we have a boringly reliable hitch in rope, that's questionable at best in monofilament.
Title: Re: A noose-like hitch that can be untied after hard strain
Post by: xarax on February 10, 2012, 08:42:52 PM
This hitch is intended for rope. 
That seems awkward to me, given the physics of monofilament are substantially different.

   The structure of a knot is the same when the knot is tied on a rope or a monofilament line...Two knots that will not slip very easily on rope - so we can not compare them when tied on rope -, will often slip when tied on a monofilament line. If that happens, we can compare those knots there, and we can suppose that what is revealed, the better or worse security of the one or the other, will be due to the knot structure, and not to the specific material ("physics"). It had never happened to me, when a knot slip less and it is more secure than another, when those two knots are tied on a certain rope material, to slip more and be less secure, when those two ropes would be tied on another material !
Title: Re: A noose-like hitch that can be untied after hard strain
Post by: Dan_Lehman on February 10, 2012, 08:51:57 PM
I was searching for a non-slipped noose-like hitch (one rope around the object)
that
 collapses and squeezes the object,
 but can be untied after heavy load
 while having good to excellent security.

The shown hitch can be jammed a bit, but is a pretty neat
and simple one.

The stated conditions aren't specific on the type of security,
but your citing "shaking" implies what I call "slack-security".
It's also not clear that the structure should have decent
**noose-like** functioning --i.e., be able to slide snug upon
loading, as opposed to be set that way.  My suggestions
will not meet this 2nd condition.

A general tactic is to hitch (line to itself; *noose* is to object)
with a rolling, Blake's, anchor hitch, which will provide
good *noosing* for *spar* & larger objects, and maybe less
good for *rings*.  The knot components of these nooses
should provide adequate slack-security, and enable loosening
after a load (one can make a full /round turn before knotting,
too, where heavy loading is expected).

And, for a *spar*/*pile* noose (i.e., around relatively medium
or large objects), a clove hitch feeding a timber hitch
noose structure should work pretty well, too.


--dl*
====
Title: Re: A noose-like hitch that can be untied after hard strain
Post by: knot4u on February 10, 2012, 08:56:22 PM
   The structure of a knot is the same when the knot is tied on a rope or a monofilament line...Two knots that will not slip very easily on rope - so we can not compare them when tied on rope -, will often slip when tied on a monofilament line. If that happens, we can compare those knots there, and we can suppose that what is revealed, the better or worse security of the one or the other, will be due to the knot structure, and not to the specific material ("physics"). It had never happened to me, when a knot slip less and it is more secure than another, when those two knots are tied on a certain rope material, to slip more and be less secure, when those two ropes would be tied on another material !

Once security reaches 100% in rope (i.e., rope breaks before it slips), any additional data about security doesn't matter much. Here are some rope knots that are 100% secure for many rope applications, but are questionable at best in monofilament:

Round Turn & Two Half Hitches
Marlinspike Hitch
Sailor's Hitch
Timber Hitch
Fisherman's Knot
etc.

So, you tie one of these knots in monofilament, find out it slips in monofilament, lose confidence in the knot, and then end up tying some ridiculously large and unnecessary knot in rope. Is that how it works? I don't get the point.
Title: Re: A noose-like hitch that can be untied after hard strain
Post by: roo on February 10, 2012, 08:56:43 PM
This hitch is intended for rope. 
That seems awkward to me, given the physics of monofilament are substantially different.

   The structure of a knot is the same when the knot is tied on a rope or a monofilament line...Two knots that will not slip very easily on rope - so we can not compare them when tied on rope -, will often slip when tied on a monofilament line. If that happens, we can compare those knots there, and we can suppose that what is revealed, the better or worse security of the one or the other, will be due to the knot structure, and not to the specific material ("physics"). It had never happened to me, when a knot slip less and it is more secure than another, when those two knots are tied on a certain rope material, to slip more and be less secure, when those two ropes would be tied on another material !
Some insights may be had, but it seems like there are more relevant tests and observations that can help select a specific hitch for a specific job.   For example, a hard pull in small nylon rope reveals that the hitch presented in this thread has better jam resistance than hitch shown in the image you attached.
Title: Re: A noose-like hitch that can be untied after hard strain
Post by: roo on February 10, 2012, 09:56:16 PM
The stated conditions aren't specific on the type of security,
All relevant types for rope.

Quote
It's also not clear ... --i.e., be able to slide snug upon
loading, as opposed to be set that way. 
I was envisioning that the squeezing of the object by the single line (no additional passes are allowed) would be due to any force on the standing part, regardless of when it was applied, but knots that refuse to hold any tension (in the manner of a running loop) should be excluded from consideration.

It's just that the lack of untyability of the Scaffold Knot (http://www.getaway-sailing.com/_datafile/scaffold.gif) was disappointing for this application.
Title: Re: A noose-like hitch that can be untied after hard strain
Post by: xarax on February 11, 2012, 12:07:23 AM
Once security reaches 100% in rope (i.e., rope breaks before it slips), any additional data about security doesn't matter much.

Do not say this again !  :) It is a sooo false a statement ! If that was so, our life would be much easier, that is true -but unfortunately or fortunately, it is not.

So, you tie one of these knots in monofilament, find out it slips in monofilament, lose confidence in the knot, and then end up tying some ridiculously large and unnecessary knot in rope. Is that how it works? I don't get the point.

Obviously  :) :)
Is that what I said ? Better, is that something I could have said ? And would you discuss  it with a person that had said such a nonsense ?

I will repeat it another time, in as plain a language as I can use ;
You tie two knots with/on a certain rope. They do not slip.  You tie them with a more slippery rope . They still do not slip . Are they equally secure ? If that was so, you do not need the most complex knot, because the security of the simpler one is as great as it can be, and anything more is redundant. History of the secure knots stops in the first century A.D. You are left with one knot : one hitch, one loop and one bend.  :)
Two knots tied on the same rope material do not slip. Are they equally secure ?  Of course not. Security of knots is a complex issue. The single most important factor is the structure, the geometry of the knot. This geometry remains (almost) the same, when the knots are tied with any of the usual ( not elastic ) materials. So, when we tie a knot with a very slippery material, like a non-coated spectra/dyneema, a monofilament fishing line, a dental floss thread, its structure remains the same. However, while the structure remains the same, the specific friction characteristics of the rope surface are different. A knot that will not slip when tied on a common rope material, may slip when tied on a more slippery material. ( Of course, all the other parameters are supposed to be the same, as the form and the initial force with which the knot is dressed in the first place, the type of the pull, etc )
What we like to test, when we compare two different knots, is their security related to their structure. If we can not do it on a non slippery material, because both knots do not slip there, we try to test it on a more slippery material. If we are lucky, we can find a slippery enough material where both knots do slip, but the one slips less than the other. If that is so, we can say that, tied on this X material, knot A slips more than knot B, so knot A is less secure than knot B. And this relation is going to be reversed with any other material Z, because it is the structure of the knot that is the single most important factor that dictates security, and this structure will not change significantly when the knot will be tied with this Z material. So, the relation will not be reversed. As I said in the previous post ;

   It had never happened to me, when a knot slip less and it is more secure than another, when those two knots are tied on a certain rope material, to slip more and be less secure, when those two ropes would be tied on another material !

The not-knot-tyer will jump and be eager to shout : But I am not interested in the security of my knot when tied on your slippery material ! I will always use this specific material in which my knot does not slip...so why I bother for any other condition ?
...and I will be eating the same breakfast each day, so I will dress and tie this same knot in exactly the same way each time, I have a ton of this rope material kept inside a completely controlled environment, so even if the manufacturer changes the chemical composition of the material or declares bankruptcy, this will not affect my ropes, it will never rain or snow in the place where I will always tie my ropes, my ropes will never suffer from fatigue, chemical degradation, sunlight, air or liquid acids, vibrations, accidental cuts on the surface, UV exposure, heat, curse from my wife...
   The only thing that remains almost the same, is the structure, the geometry of the rope - which is also the most important factor that determines its security. If you can compare different knot structures under the same circumstances, and find out that a knot is more secure than an other under those circumstances, this is not going to change under any other circumstances. When I say that a knot is more secure than another, I describe a relation that is independent of the specific circumstances, and only reveals a characteristic of the structures, the "geometry" of those knots, not their "physics".
Title: Re: A noose-like hitch that can be untied after hard strain
Post by: xarax on February 11, 2012, 12:12:01 AM
there are more relevant tests and observations that can help select a specific hitch for a specific job.   For example, a hard pull in small nylon rope reveals that the hitch presented in this thread has better jam resistance than hitch shown in the image you attached .

I do not doubt this...I have not tested the jamming characteristics of this knot, or indeed of any other knot - because I do not know how I can do it, in a controlled, quantitative way. I have tested only its security, i.e,. if it slips more than the knot presented in this thread, or not.
Title: Re: A noose-like hitch that can be untied after hard strain
Post by: roo on February 11, 2012, 12:40:26 AM
[...]
Is that what I said ? Better, is that something I could have said ? And would you discuss  it with a person that had said such a nonsense ?

I will repeat it another time, [snipped a lot]
Yikes.  Maybe we can save this for another topic or a new topic.  Let's try to curb the tangents.
Title: Re: A noose-like hitch that can be untied after hard strain
Post by: xarax on February 11, 2012, 12:53:26 AM
   Maybe we can save this for another topic or a new topic.  Let's try to curb the tangents.

Sorry. I was forced to reply in such a lengthy balh blah because my original short comment was misunderstood repeatedly. Even if the knot presented in this thread does not slip with most materials, we can still evaluate its security, and try to find out if it is more or less secure than other knots, of about the same complexity.
Title: Re: A noose-like hitch that can be untied after hard strain
Post by: knot4u on February 11, 2012, 03:06:04 AM
I'd like to get back to talking the knot in the original post and how it behaves in rope. It's intriguing.

I've tried it in various situations (e.g., paracord, boot lace, larger polyester, large diameter objects, small diameter objects). It has not slipped.

On the flip side, the knot does feel like it might jam in certain circumstances and materials. However, that's just a guess because I have not jammed it.

I'm guessing the knot might slip if the object has a large diameter (ring loaded knot) and is slippery. Again, that's just a guess because I have not gotten the knot to slip. If the business portion keeps behaving like a Marlinspike Hitch and doesn't capsize, then it shouldn't slip.
Title: Re: A noose-like hitch that can be untied after hard strain
Post by: xarax on February 11, 2012, 04:53:58 AM
It's a Marlinspike Hitch in which the standing end operates as the spike. That's nifty.
I have not gotten the knot to slip. If [it] keeps behaving like a Marlinspike Hitch and doesn't capsize, then it shouldn't slip.

   Perhaps the comparison to the Marlinspike hitch, which is not correct, reveals the problem of such hitches ( like the hitch presented in this thread, or the one I have shown at Reply#2, or at Ref. (1)). In all knots where the standing part penetrates the knot like a spike, (without being such  :)), what we see is that the standing part  is aligned too early and too much, the rest of the knot does not force it to curve a little, so it slips, as a whole, alongside it. This is not a problem when this "rest of the knot" is convoluted enough, like it is in the Buntline hitch or in the 'Buntline extinguisher" hitch, because there it does not run the danger to be untied when pulled by the eye leg of the bight. When this knot is too simple, like in the case of the hitch presented in this thread, the pull from the one end can be sufficient to make it unfold from its place around the aligned standing part, and be untied. The standing part is not curved even a little, so it will not be an obstacle to this trend. Only the compression forces from  the object, and the friction with the object s surface, can prevent this. I do not trust this one and only one line of defense against knot release. Who knows what will happen to this simple overhand knot after alternating pulls, when the compression forces from the surface of the object will shake it repeatedly ?
I would not trust this hitch unless I know that it was dressed tightly in the first place, it will remain under constant loading all the time, and that the surface of the object is not slippery itself, - and even then I would like to pull the free end from time to time, to be sure the knot remains tightly tied on the standing part  :).
   What we need is a hitch-noose where the pull from the eye leg of the bight can deform the standing part a little, so the formed curve will allow the rest of the knot to be entangled with/on it in a safer way - and also where the rest of the knot will be complex enough, so it will not run the danger to be untied when it is pulled by its one end. I think we should go beyond the single overhand knot, to a double overhand or a shape "8" knot, to have a sufficiently convoluted knot tied around/on the standing part.

1) http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3288.msg19765#msg19765
Title: Re: A noose-like hitch that can be untied after hard strain
Post by: knot4u on February 11, 2012, 07:16:59 PM
   Perhaps the comparison to the Marlinspike hitch, which is not correct...

I said it's like a Marlinspike Hitch where the standard part is like the spike. I'll give you a chance to explain how that statement is incorrect. Actually, don't bother. I don't care.
Title: Re: A noose-like hitch that can be untied after hard strain
Post by: roo on February 11, 2012, 07:48:26 PM
I've finally decided to do a write-up on it:

http://notableknotindex.webs.com/gnathitch.html

Thanks to all for giving your thoughts on the matter.   :)
Title: Re: A noose-like hitch that can be untied after hard strain
Post by: knot4u on February 11, 2012, 07:54:30 PM
Cool, can you explain the name?
Title: Re: A noose-like hitch that can be untied after hard strain
Post by: roo on February 11, 2012, 07:59:35 PM
Cool, can you explain the name?
The small knot form reminded me of a little gnat.  Also, I see a "g" shape the tying process.
Title: Re: A noose-like hitch that can be untied after hard strain
Post by: knot4u on February 11, 2012, 08:11:17 PM
The Gnat does fill a niche. I imagine tying a Gnat in many applications I would otherwise tie a Slipped Buntline, but want something smaller. While a Slipped Buntline is not big, a Gnat is a little smaller and does not require a slip. Actually, the Gnat seems to be actively opposed to the idea of a slip.
Title: Re: A noose-like hitch that can be untied after hard strain
Post by: xarax on February 11, 2012, 08:39:52 PM
I said it's like a Marlinspike Hitch where the standard part is like the spike. I'll give you a chance to explain how that statement is incorrect. Actually, don't bother. I don't care.

It is not like a Marlinspike Hitch. But you do not care.
When I try to explain what I think, I do not do it for one person, that may decide to care, or not care about something he does not know...I do it because I write what I believe it is true, for any present or future reader.
I know that there are many people who care only to learn the multiplication table by heart. So they believe they will learn how to multiply, and they even believe they will learn what multiplication is... and what mathematics is. Some of them will even go as far as to believe that parroting the multiplication table makes them great mathematicians !  :)
I try to understand things, knots, whatever, and when I believe I have understood something, I believe I have a duty to share my thoughts. I have tried all the possible arrangements of an overhand knot, a figure 8 knot, a Constrictor and a Strangle knot around the standing part, and I believe I know the advantages and the shortcomings of each solution. Whoever wishes to care about my experience, may learn something, or think about something else, and discuss it with me, so I will also learn something new. Whoever does not care, will not bother about anything, and "will live with this", proud and happy !   

 ( Off topic post, as an answer to an off topic post... :))
Title: Re: A noose-like hitch that can be untied after hard strain
Post by: Dan_Lehman on February 12, 2012, 04:47:35 AM
Once security reaches 100% in rope (i.e., rope breaks before it slips), any additional data about security doesn't matter much.

Do not say this again !  :) It is a sooo false a statement ! If that was so, our life would be much easier, that is true -but unfortunately or fortunately, it is not.
...// ...
You tie two knots with/on a certain rope. They do not slip.
...
Two knots tied on the same rope material do not slip. Are they equally secure ?
Of course not.

Yes, they are, in that material.
All this expounding about the structure of a *knot*
is wasted energy, here, and beside the point of practicality.
It points to an issue on the definition of "knot",
with concerns I've mentioned before, about treating
*knots* as schemas for the formation of knottable
material, rather than as instances of something knotted.



Quote
The single most important factor is the structure, the geometry of the knot.
This geometry remains (almost) the same, when the knots are tied with any of the
usual ( not elastic ) materials. So, when we tie a knot with a very slippery material,
like a non-coated spectra/dyneema, a monofilament fishing line, a dental floss thread,
its structure remains the same.

It's not so simple.  Nor is friction the sole determinant of
behavior --vs. flexibility, cross-section stability, & springyness,
e.g..  I recall the EBDB looking worse in one springy slick
soft-laid PP cord and a Janus bowline seeming more secure,
which was contrary to behavior I found in other materials.  The
PP could too well simply loosen and enlarge rounded loops (of
the EBDB), but didn't so well enlarge the sharply elliptical
collars of the Janus bwl (where it tried to simply open, as
legs of scissors, and was immediately impeded by the central
nipping turns).
Quote
If ... we can find a slippery enough material where both knots do slip,
but the one slips less than the other ... , we can say that, tied on this X material,
knot A slips more than knot B, so knot A is less secure than knot B.
And this relation is going [NOT (you meant to say!)] to be reversed with any other material Z,
because it is the structure of the knot that is the single most important factor that dictates security,
and this structure will not change significantly when the knot will be tied with this Z material.
So, the relation will not be reversed.

And this conjecture about the inviolability of the significance
of structure is just that, and something I think I've seen
hints of contradiction for.

At this point in our understanding, it's hardly worth going
all keystoke krazy over.  (And, with the conjecture, can one ever
make a conclusion?)

The not-knot-tyer will jump and be eager to shout : But I am not interested in the security of my knot when tied on your slippery material ! I will always use this specific material in which my knot does not slip...so why I bother for any other condition ?

This goes too far.  One can have constraints on the domain
of knottable media one is concerned about; it will be hoped
that such constraints are kept in mind if media outside of
the domain should ever be the focus of knotting.

As for squeezing around the object,
note that this won't happen for other than *ring*
hitches --*spar* and beyond will tend to produce
choker-hitch sorts of openings on the side where
the noose SPart is, with quite a gap between where
the material hitches to itself.  Hence my suggestion
for friction hitches (forming the noose --though being
lousy for cinching to the object w/o assistance),
which can be set snug to the object.


--dl*
====
Title: Re: A noose-like hitch that can be untied after hard strain
Post by: knot4u on February 12, 2012, 06:34:33 AM
Who knows what will happen to this simple overhand knot after alternating pulls, when the compression forces from the surface of the object will shake it repeatedly?

You're viewing the Gnat Hitch as an Overhand? Do you also view a Half Hitch as an Overhand? Sure, there happens to be an overhand in there. However, the money is not in the overhand portion. For the Gnat, the money is in the part that resembles a Marlinspike. You're coming at this from a bizarre angle with all this talk about Overhands, monofilament, etc.
Title: Re: A noose-like hitch that can be untied after hard strain
Post by: xarax on February 12, 2012, 12:35:00 PM
Two knots tied on the same rope material do not slip. Are they equally secure ?
Of course not.

Yes, they are, in that material.
All this expounding about the structure of a *knot* is wasted energy, here, and beside the point of practicality. It points to an issue on the definition of "knot",
with concerns I've mentioned before, about treating *knots* as schemas for the formation of knottablematerial, rather than as instances of something knotted.

It is really amusing what you try to pull out of your magic sleeve, to defend something that can not be rationally defended ( and which happened, just happened, to be something said against what I have said.. :)) Dan Lehman, you are such a good knot tier, and such a lousy lawyer... :)
So, a thief knot is a safe, secure, knot ! Because it can be tied with a material with which it will not slip! So, we can not say that a thief knot slips, but only that "a thief knot not-knotted on this material, may slip"  :) :). We can not say that any knot is slippery or not, because with some materials it will slip, and with some others it will not. There are no general characteristics of knots : All knots are equal in the Dan Lehman s Land of knots !  :) A "materialistic" approach, indeed ! :)
Gentlemen, do not talk about knots, they exist only in my imagination, they do not have structure, because they are not real : There are only things knotted on a specific material ... so we can not say "an overhand knot", because there is not such a thing. There is no structure of a knot, topology, geometry, lengthrope, etc. Oouaou ! What a relaxing simplification of the Word is this...We have managed to get rid of so many things with this "knotting material"invention, there are so fewer invariable qualities in nature, our life has suddently became so much easier... :)

The single most important factor is the structure, the geometry of the knot. This geometry remains (almost) the same, when the knots are tied with any of the usual ( not elastic ) materials. So, when we tie a knot with a very slippery material, like a non-coated spectra/dyneema, a monofilament fishing line, a dental floss thread, its structure remains the same.

It's not so simple.  Nor is friction the sole determinant of behavior --vs. flexibility, cross-section stability, & springyness, e.g.

That is why I said "usual"(sic), "non elastic"(sic) material. To speak about an (almost) same geometrical structure, when a knot is tied on different materials, we should pre-suppose that the material will keep, more or less, its circular cross section and will not flatten out completely, It will not be springy, etc.  Read my lips, when I was trying to spell out the simple thing I said above. When we use webbing or springy materials, we are talking about different things, that is obvious, and evident too, even to me ! :)

If ... we can find a slippery enough material where both knots do slip,
but the one slips less than the other ... , we can say that, tied on this X material,
knot A slips more than knot B, so knot A is less secure than knot B.
And this relation is going [NOT (you meant to say!)] to be reversed with any other material Z, because it is the structure of the knot that is the single most important factor that dictates security, and this structure will not change significantly when the knot will be tied with this Z material.So, the relation will not be reversed.

And this conjecture about the inviolability of the significance of structure is just that, and something I think I've seen hints of contradiction for.

Well, "I" have not ! And this is exactly what I have said, again and again, repeatedly :

   It had never happened to me, when a knot slip less and it is more secure than another, when those two knots are tied on a certain rope material, to slip more and be less secure, when those two ropes would be tied on another material !

If you point out to me two "knotted materials" tied on the same material, with the same structure,  where the A "knotted material" slips and the B "knotted material" does not, and then two other "knotted materials", tied on another material, with the "same structure" as before ( If I can say this...PLEASE, allow me to say this, just for once, for the last time, to describe what I mean...), where now the "knotting material" A will not slip, and now the "knotting material" B will slip, Iff you point me this situation, then, and only then, you would be able to start to argue on what I have said. I have seen , ( and you, as a knot tier, you have also seen, of course, but, as a lawer, you are trying hard to hide the crux of the matter...) that the relation "a knot A will slip, more than a knot B", or the relation "a knot A is more secure and safe than the knot B", is a relation independent of the material used . It depends mainly upon the geometrical structures of the knots - and those things do not change... and that is why they are called "structures', for Kant Land s god sake !

At this point in our understanding, it's hardly worth going all keystoke krazy over.

I tried to say one obvious, self evident thing, that an overhand knot tied around a tensioned, aligned standing part would be not such a good solution... because the overhand knot will run the danger to be untied quite easily, the structure of the overhand not is not secure and safe enough, and we would probably need something more convoluted, like a fig. 8 knot. I have also pointed out that I have tried all the possible configurations of overhand knots tied around the standing part of such hitches-nooses, and I have even given references and PICTURES of three such knots...which, of course, no participant on this discussion had ever seen, or tied or tried...And what do I listen ? That I can not speak of "knots", in general, because there are only "knotted materials", so the overhand knotted material, tied with/on the Titanic s mooring line, will not slip, is secure and safe ! Asta la vista, my dear Dan Lehman, I have hijacked this thread too much. The hitch presented is not bad, the ones I have also presented with pictures are not bad, but we better tie a "Buntline extinguisher " Constrictor-around-the-standing-part, or a Double overhand, Strangle neck instead.
Title: Re: A noose-like hitch that can be untied after hard strain
Post by: xarax on February 12, 2012, 01:02:30 PM
You're coming at this from a bizarre angle with all this talk about Overhands, monofilament, etc.

Try, just try, to be a little dubious about your understanding of what I have said and my "bizzare"angle... "All this talk" about Overhands, monofolament, etc.", might be, just might be, not such a nonsense you think it is. I have tried to answered to your questions, but you do not care, and you do not bother to try... Asta la vista, my dear knot4u, I am sure you will manage to understand something more in the future.
Title: Re: A noose-like hitch that can be untied after hard strain
Post by: Dan_Lehman on February 13, 2012, 05:47:42 AM
Two knots tied on the same rope material do not slip. Are they equally secure ?
Of course not.

Yes, they are, in that material.  ...   It points to an issue on the definition of "knot",
with concerns I've mentioned before, about treating *knots* as schemas for the
formation of knottablematerial, rather than as instances of something knotted.

So, a thief knot is a safe, secure, knot ! Because it can be tied with a material
with which it will not slip! So, we can not say that a thief knot slips, but only
that "a thief knot not-knotted on this material, may slip"  :) :).  We can not say
that any knot is slippery or not, because with some materials it will slip, and with
some others it will not.  There are no general characteristics of knots :  All knots are
equal in the Dan Lehman s Land of knots !  :) A "materialistic" approach, indeed ! :)
(There are no apostrophes in X's land of keystroke kraziness!)

Did you miss the point about *knot* ?
If one finds a material in which the thief knot works well,
what is the point to decrying its use there --perhaps by urging
further searching ...-- where is suited?

Quote
The single most important factor is the structure, the geometry of the knot.

It's not so simple.  Nor is friction the sole determinant of behavior
--vs. flexibility, cross-section stability, & springyness, e.g..

That is why I said "usual"(sic), "non elastic"(sic) material.

Hmmm, now X. becomes aware of material, though he seems
to want it only with "general" characteristics, not liable to unsettle
a *structured* perspective!

Quote
And this relation is going [NOT (you meant to say!)] to be reversed with any other material Z,
because it is the structure of the knot that is the single most important factor that dictates security, ...

And this conjecture about the inviolability of the significance of structure
is just that, and something I think I've seen hints of contradiction for.

Well, "I" have not ! And this is exactly what I have said, again and again, repeatedly :

... so much so as to ignore that I have pointed to one
case where security was reversed.  Or that it seems to have
been (security vs. shaking loose), which is enough for me to
put doubt into such a broad generalization, knowing how
diverse knottable media is.

Xarax, you have gone gung-ho here (maybe "oauauao", whatever
that new utterance is, too) over something that is conjecture on
your part, and not wise, in light of how diverse knottable media
is.  Here is a simple case that I hope sheds some light on the
variability of *security*:
bowlines have been --and continue to be-- used for ages
in maritime use, without further precaution, for the most part;
their users laugh at suggestions that the knot will slip;
the knots can hold through to rupture, in testing;

but rockclimbers know to beware the bowline, because of
some well-publicized cases where it has slipped in the
sense of coming loose.

Now, I submit that if one put a shake test on a bowline
tied in some flexible, 12-strand HMPE (non-coated [and by this
I mean "not coated with urethane or other like treatment",
and NOT "unsheathed" --but, yes, it IS unsheathed/pure]),
the knot will do better than one tied in springy slick PP, or
smooth-slick-&-firmish kernmantle;
BUT, put to the test machine (same knots exactly!),
the not-shaken-loose(now) latter knots (*knots* as knotted
material) will hold to break,
whereas that in HMPE will slip out, spill.

Yes, this is different than your Knot-A & Knot-B scenario;
but it shows the vagaries of knot behavior, and in has specific
aptness to the OP who wants *security*, entirely.

Please don't read me as dismissing structure as important.
But we might come to --with improved, intelligent testing
and demonstration thereof of knot behavior across materials--
see some structures as preferable where materials are very
flexible, say, and other structures good in different cases
(and be less likely to try to find some universally *best*
structure).


--dl*
====
Title: Re: A noose-like hitch that can be untied after hard strain
Post by: xarax on February 13, 2012, 10:28:28 AM
(There are no apostrophes in X's land of keystroke kraziness!)

For a reply to this stroke of genius (or else  :)), see (1)

1) http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3784.msg22146#msg22146
Title: Re: A noose-like hitch that can be untied after hard strain
Post by: roo on February 13, 2012, 11:23:45 PM
r. While a Slipped Buntline is not big, a Gnat is a little smaller and does not require a slip. Actually, the Gnat seems to be actively opposed to the idea of a slip.
Yeah, sometimes users may not even want a slipped end around that could get accidentally tripped, so that consideration helped drive the search.
Title: Re: A noose-like hitch that can be untied after hard strain
Post by: Hrungnir on February 14, 2012, 12:14:30 AM
Just a little note:

If you ringload the Gnat Hitch (which you might do with a noose), it turns into a fixed loop. The fixed loop reminds of the Eskimo Bowline, but the working end and standing part are switched.

In my brief testing, the knot holds well and doesn't slip. It doesn't compete with knots such as Carrick Bend, Timber Hitch and Bowline when it comes to ease of untying, but it seems to untie much easier than Two Half Hitches and the Alpine Butterfly Loop.
Title: Re: A noose-like hitch that can be untied after hard strain
Post by: roo on February 14, 2012, 12:21:04 AM
Just a little note:

If you ringload the Gnat Hitch (which you might do with a noose), it turns into a fixed loop. The fixed loop reminds of the Eskimo Bowline, but the working end and standing part are switched.
I tried to simulate this, but it seems to just allow the "noose" to open if the standing part is not loaded and something tries to expand the noose.

Did you set the knot form first? 

Title: Re: A noose-like hitch that can be untied after hard strain
Post by: xarax on February 14, 2012, 12:28:50 AM
If you ringload the Gnat Hitch

I do not think that you should describe what you did as "ring loading".
Anyway, this "Hrungnir loading", turns the elementary overhand hitch of Reply#2 into a Sheet bend.
Title: Re: A noose-like hitch that can be untied after hard strain
Post by: roo on February 14, 2012, 02:47:18 AM
The shown hitch can be jammed a bit...
I'm becoming a little disappointed in the hitch's jamming on smaller diameter objects after hard strain as I'm getting more into wet testing. 

It's too bad, because I'm pleased with the simplicity and security of the hitch.
Title: Re: A noose-like hitch that can be untied after hard strain
Post by: Hrungnir on February 14, 2012, 03:22:15 AM
I thought ringloading was pulling the legs of the loop (spread the loop).

I've made a diagram of what I did. The Gnat Hitch to the left and the resulting knot after pulling the legs of the loop (spreading it) to the right.

I tightened the knot before pulling the legs.
Title: Re: A noose-like hitch that can be untied after hard strain
Post by: Mike on February 14, 2012, 03:52:39 AM
Try this one out.  I was playing with the Blimp Knot and tried using it for a noose.  It seems to meet your requirements for non jamming and easy to untie.

(http://webpages.charter.net/mkenimer/Blimp3.jpg)

(http://webpages.charter.net/mkenimer/Blimp4.jpg)

Pull the part with the blue dot back out to form the loop.
Title: Re: A noose-like hitch that can be untied after hard strain
Post by: roo on February 14, 2012, 04:14:40 AM
Try this one out.  I was playing with the Blimp Knot and tried using it for a noose.  It seems to meet your requirements for non jamming and easy to untie.

(http://webpages.charter.net/mkenimer/Blimp3.jpg)

(http://webpages.charter.net/mkenimer/Blimp4.jpg)

Pull the part with the blue dot back out to form the loop.
Well I'll be...  That's the Gnat Hitch. 
Title: Re: A noose-like hitch that can be untied after hard strain
Post by: Mike on February 14, 2012, 04:59:37 AM
Well I'll be darn, your right......lol  I didn't even notice that.  After reading your reply I tied the Gnat hitch and was able to get it to turn into a Blimp Knot after messin with it for a minute.
Title: Re: A noose-like hitch that can be untied after hard strain
Post by: xarax on February 14, 2012, 11:25:27 AM
..the resulting knot after pulling the legs of the loop (spreading it) to the right.
I tightened the knot before pulling the legs.

This is the "Hrungnir operation" I was taliking about at Reply#34... :)
See, at the attached pictures, how the same operation transforms the elementary Overhand knot hitch shown at Reply#3, into the Sheet bend.
( Am I allowed to describe this knot as a Sheet bend, when I denied this description for the bowline components, as Derek Smith proposed ? I think I am, because here the third limb of the knot that is loaded, is the second of the link which has not crossed legs ( the "white" link), so the loading of the knot ( as well as its form) resembles the loading of the Sheet bend, indeed.
Title: Re: A noose-like hitch that can be untied after hard strain
Post by: xarax on February 14, 2012, 12:38:19 PM
   The one single overhand knot is not as convoluted a knot as it should, to serve as a "neck" for a secure noose-hitch. So, it is tempting to try two overhand knots instead ( "When one is not enough, try two", said one of the discoverers of the double DNA helix ... :) ). The Blimp knot is nothing but such a two-interlinked-overhand-knots compound knot.
   See the attached pictures for another noose-hitch based upon a two-interlinked-overhand-knots neck. Shown are a "correct" and a wrong version . The wrong one, suffers from the danger the tail will be untucked and untied, if the upper overhand knot is not tightened adequately - and will not  remain in this state ever since. That is the reason it might serve as a knot for a midlne bend, but not as a neck around the tensioned standing part of a noose-hitch.
   However, I think that the purpose of this thread was a noose-hitch which will be tightened when pressed hard on the surface of the wrapped object, by the compression forces the surface of the object imposes on a nub of as simple as possible a knot...It seems that such a knot should drive the tail towards the surface of the object, so the interaction of the tail with the surface will secure it further.
Title: Re: A noose-like hitch that can be untied after hard strain
Post by: knot4u on February 14, 2012, 10:25:25 PM
The shown hitch can be jammed a bit...
I'm becoming a little disappointed in the hitch's jamming on smaller diameter objects after hard strain as I'm getting more into wet testing. 

It's too bad, because I was pleased with the simplicity and security of the hitch.

After further testing on small diameter objects, I have not gotten a jam. Can you describe this jam more? Is it capsized and then jammed?
Title: Re: A noose-like hitch that can be untied after hard strain
Post by: roo on February 14, 2012, 10:51:50 PM
After further testing on small diameter objects, I have not gotten a jam. Can you describe this jam more? Is it capsized and then jammed?
There is no capsizing, it's just that there's more difficulty in prying and wiggling apart the underlying half hitch than I would like.  I'm using 3/16" nylon braid (sometimes wet) on a small carabiner under very high strain.  I'm glad that it's not causing you problems.  Hopefully most users' conditions will not be as harsh as what I'm doing, but I'm including a note of the issue on the Gnat Hitch page.
Title: Re: A noose-like hitch that can be untied after hard strain
Post by: knot4u on February 14, 2012, 11:38:22 PM
After further testing on small diameter objects, I have not gotten a jam. Can you describe this jam more? Is it capsized and then jammed?
There is no capsizing, it's just that there's more difficulty in prying and wiggling apart the underlying half hitch than I would like.  I'm using 3/16" nylon braid (sometimes wet) on a small carabiner under very high strain.  I'm glad that it's not causing you problems.  Hopefully most users' conditions will not be as harsh as what I'm doing, but I'm including a note of the issue on the Gnat Hitch page.

Yeah, I don't know if jamming is the right word here. It may require an extra step to loosen a strand here and there, but it's not close to being rock solid like a regular Overhand tied in the middle of a rope.
Title: Re: A noose-like hitch that can be untied after hard strain
Post by: roo on February 14, 2012, 11:48:07 PM
Yeah, I don't know if jamming is the right word here. It may require an extra step to loosen a strand here and there, but it's not close to being rock solid like a regular Overhand tied in the middle of a rope.
Well, in some cases it's taking me over a minute to get things free by hand.   
Title: Re: A noose-like hitch that can be untied after hard strain
Post by: Hrungnir on February 15, 2012, 02:23:12 AM
I do find it difficult to untie it too in 2mm polyester, but nowhere near as difficult to untie as the Alpine Butterfly Loop in the same material.

Even though the Gnat Hitch isn't as easy to untie as we were hoping for, it's perhaps the best existing none slipped noose-like-hitch when simplicity, security and untie-ability are the important factors. It seems to outperform Two Half Hitches, Buntline, Hangmans Noose, Strangle Snare, Scaffold Knot and the Uni Knot.
Title: Re: A noose-like hitch that can be untied after hard strain
Post by: TMCD on February 15, 2012, 06:44:26 PM
I've glanced through this thread, note I haven't read every response, but in what scenario would I choose this hitch over say a slipped Buntline Hitch or a slipped Lobster Buoy hitch? Both of those also squeeze down and trap the WE but can also be untied in the slipped version.
Title: Re: A noose-like hitch that can be untied after hard strain
Post by: roo on February 15, 2012, 06:59:29 PM
I've glanced through this thread, note I haven't read every response, but in what scenario would I choose this hitch over say a slipped Buntline Hitch or a slipped Lobster Buoy hitch? Both of those also squeeze down and trap the WE but can also be untied in the slipped version.
Sometimes you would not want a slip that could be snagged causing release or where simply having a draw loop hanging free would catch on debris or various objects.

Also, a non-slipped knot form is just slimmer.
Title: Re: A noose-like hitch that can be untied after hard strain
Post by: Dan_Lehman on February 16, 2012, 09:13:41 PM
In what scenario would I choose this hitch over say a slipped Buntline Hitch or a slipped Lobster Buoy hitch?
Both of those also squeeze down and trap the WE but can also be untied in the slipped version.
Sometimes you would not want a slip that could be snagged
causing release or where simply having a draw loop hanging
free would catch on debris or various objects.

Also, a non-slipped knot form is just slimmer.

Often when I read of some supposed easy-untying got by
slipping the finish of a knot, I wonder if the person claiming
this has ever engaged serious loads on such a knot?!
For, in many cases, it simply isn't true that a slip-tuck
finish enables easy untying; rather, the jammed knot
jams this slip-tuck along with everything else --and if
one relies on some mechanical device to haul out the
slipped tail, there can be damage to the material.

To double-check my opinion on this, I just put some
fat-quarter-inch laid CoEx PP/PE tied in slipped buntline
hitches
to a stress of, oh, perhaps 2-300# (body wgt.
on a pulley).  I could at most haul down one slip-bight
until, nearly freed, the bight tip bulge was not at the
point of constricture.  Then, I tied onto this tail and
probably needed about 70# of *pedal* force to pull
out the slip-bight.  Well, why guess : I now have 112.5#
suspended from the other buntline's slip-bight tail,
with some bit of jostling, this is holding, bight crunched
to the point of nip.  A bit of shock will no doubt set it
free, but that's hardly what I regard as an answer for
ease of untying!  (Yes, after about the fifth small drop
of the 12.5# set of barbell weights, the bight pulled out.)

I think that I'd have been quicker in untying these knots
by struggling to pry out the outer nip of the hitch.


--dl*
====
Title: Re: A noose-like hitch that can be untied after hard strain
Post by: knot4u on February 17, 2012, 05:28:42 PM
Often when I read of some supposed easy-untying got by
slipping the finish of a knot, I wonder if the person claiming
this has ever engaged serious loads on such a knot?!
For, in many cases, it simply isn't true that a slip-tuck
finish enables easy untying; rather, the jammed knot
jams this slip-tuck along with everything else --and if
one relies on some mechanical device to haul out the
slipped tail, there can be damage to the material.

True, and you can say the same thing for any knot that has the propensity to jam, but sometimes that particular knot is the one you want.  Have you been able to jam a Round Turn and Slipped Buntline? Or a Backhand and Slipped Buntline?

Anyway, I view a Slipped Buntline as a knot for situations I absolutely need the hitch to hold. For comparison, I don't always have the same confidence in a Round Turn and Two Half Hitches.

While a normal Slipped Buntline may jam, the slip provides some hope of untying it under most conditions.  By the way, for all real life tasks in my world, a Slipped Buntline has never jammed on me.
Title: Re: A noose-like hitch that can be untied after hard strain
Post by: roo on February 17, 2012, 05:40:12 PM
While a normal Slipped Buntline may jam, the slip gives at least some hope of untying it if the knot has not jammed.  By the way, for all real life tasks in my world, a Slipped Buntline has never jammed on me.
A slip also allows the possibility of releasing the hitch while it is still loaded. 

For example:  http://notableknotindex.webs.com/LRslippedbuntline.gif
(discussed here:  http://notableknotindex.webs.com/slippedbuntline.html)

A Gnat Hitch may replace a Slipped Buntline Hitch in some cases, but the Slipped Buntline still has quite a few uses.
Title: Re: A noose-like hitch that can be untied after hard strain
Post by: roo on February 17, 2012, 05:48:13 PM
Update:  http://notableknotindex.webs.com/gnathitch.html
As an aside, has anyone seen this in any knot publication?  It doesn't seem to be in the Ashley Book of Knots.
Title: Re: A noose-like hitch that can be untied after hard strain
Post by: knot4u on February 17, 2012, 07:28:55 PM
While a normal Slipped Buntline may jam, the slip gives at least some hope of untying it if the knot has not jammed.  By the way, for all real life tasks in my world, a Slipped Buntline has never jammed on me.
A slip also allows the possibility of releasing the hitch while it is still loaded. 

For example:  http://notableknotindex.webs.com/LRslippedbuntline.gif
(discussed here:  http://notableknotindex.webs.com/slippedbuntline.html)

A Gnat Hitch may replace a Slipped Buntline Hitch in some cases, but the Slipped Buntline still has quite a few uses.

OK.

Question, on your site you have "Variant of the Slipped Buntline". That's the Highpoint Hitch, right?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highpoint_hitch
Title: Re: A noose-like hitch that can be untied after hard strain
Post by: roo on February 17, 2012, 07:48:44 PM
Question, on your site you have "Variant of the Slipped Buntline". That's the Highpoint Hitch, right?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highpoint_hitch
It matches what's on that wikipedia entry, although I wonder about the name.  Ashley refers to it as a high post hitch (among other high post hitches).  So did someone misremember both the spelling and Ashley's lack of naming?
Title: Re: A noose-like hitch that can be untied after hard strain
Post by: knot4u on February 17, 2012, 07:54:48 PM
Question, on your site you have "Variant of the Slipped Buntline". That's the Highpoint Hitch, right?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highpoint_hitch
It matches what's on that wikipedia entry, although I wonder about the name.  Ashley refers to it as a highpost hitch (among other highpost hitches).  So did someone misremember both the spelling and Ashley's lack of naming?

OK, perhaps modify Wikipedia if you have the time. At least install the ABOK number.
Title: Re: A noose-like hitch that can be untied after hard strain
Post by: roo on February 17, 2012, 08:06:05 PM
OK, perhaps modify Wikipedia if you have the time. At least install the ABOK number.
I've started a new thread to discuss what it should be called:
http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3792.0
Title: Re: A noose-like hitch that can be untied after hard strain
Post by: Dan_Lehman on April 02, 2012, 04:29:18 AM
I was searching for a non-slipped noose-like hitch (only one pass around the object)
that collapses and squeezes the object, but can be untied after heavy load
while having good to excellent security.  ...

To answer this "rope problem", I'd try the Uni-knot (or something
similar), as there the heavy loading coming into the *knot*
part of the noose-hitch will bear upon the turns around
the noose-SPart, which themselves will be more or less
as tight as set --and not tighter per loading.  To untie,
one should be able to work the knot back along the noose's
SPart, and thereafter loosen the knot itself (as it, too, should
not be jammed).

What you've discovered here is roughly --but for which side
of the noose-SPart the tail is tucked-- what I've called a
"collared half-hitch".  And inspired by this thread (and
recalling that the noose can jam), I tried forming it in the
opposite direction --i.e., as though the SPart were going
in the opposite direction, the object hitched on that side,
and the present nipping cut to become the new tail &
noose-SPart.  This is similar, but maybe has some greater
resistance to jamming --a bit more amenable to working
loose.

And, beyond these, I still like the anchor-bend noose
--which amounts to something like a half-length Prohgrip
(Blake's Hitch)
.  It does well with relatively larger objects,
given the way the knot's SPart enters vis-a-vis the noose's
(natural for a right angle, i.e.).


--dl*
====
Title: Re: A noose-like hitch that can be untied after hard strain
Post by: FalseBeet on April 07, 2012, 12:41:45 AM
Isn't this fundamentally a halter hitch without the bight? If so, could you improve on the security by making it a Siberian hitch without a bight? I guess I'm not personally very clear on when a knot becomes a different knot!
Title: Re: A noose-like hitch that can be untied after hard strain
Post by: roo on April 07, 2012, 01:51:12 AM
Isn't this fundamentally a halter hitch without the bight?

No.

http://notableknotindex.webs.com/haltersiberian.html
http://notableknotindex.webs.com/gnathitch.html
Title: Re: A noose-like hitch that can be untied after hard strain
Post by: knot4u on April 07, 2012, 02:06:10 AM
Isn't this fundamentally a halter hitch without the bight? If so, could you improve on the security by making it a Siberian hitch without a bight? I guess I'm not personally very clear on when a knot becomes a different knot!

No, look more closely. If you slide the standing end out, then the Gnat does not have a knot left over. The Halter and Siberian do. The knot in the Halter is an Overhand. The knot in the Siberian is a Fig 8.
Title: Re: A noose-like hitch that can be untied after hard strain
Post by: Andy on March 30, 2015, 07:50:42 PM
After reading about this hitch on Roo's site, I've been enjoying its simple beauty.

Quote
As an aside, has anyone seen this in any knot publication?

I haven't, but what prompted me to post is that an elderly Swiss gentleman showed me this hitch a couple days ago. He had asked me to show him how to tie a truckie after he'd seen me fasten some heavy doors we picked up. I told him he could start by tying the line with any hitch. He didn't know the bowline, but what he tied was the gnat hitch! Wondering if that's sheer luck (as he doesn't seem to know many knots) or something he learned somewhere. Will ask him next time I see him.

Edit: the Swiss gentleman said he didn't learn the knot from anyone, he just came up with it. For a moment I was wondering if it was something they teach you at military training in Switzerland? The gnat hitch would certainly fit? but no.