International Guild of Knot Tyers Forum
General => Practical Knots => Topic started by: Drugstorebrewer on January 13, 2012, 10:30:59 AM
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Hi there!
I was turned on to this amazing place by Andy at A Site About Nothing.
Anyway, I am looking for a method that was in use up until the late 1800's all over the place; securing a cork in a bottle (like for champagne or beer) with some type of string wound around the neck and over the top of the cork. I can't find any information on how to do this anywhere. While I could muddle up a piece of twine to do the trick, I am going to be delivering this product to market, so it has to look good and also be very simple and repeatable. Looking at the forums, it seemed that this would be the place to post this, but would also take feedback on throwing this into the Practical Knots section if anyone thinks it would be appropriate...thanks in advance.
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Hello Drugstorebrewer and welcome.
An answer to your request for info about securing a cork may be dependent of the shape of the cork, how "decorative" you want it to be and even the type of cord you will use.
A very simple method is shown on this page > http://bookdome.com/outdoors/Camping-Woodcraft/Knots-Hitches-And-Lashings-Part-5.html (http://bookdome.com/outdoors/Camping-Woodcraft/Knots-Hitches-And-Lashings-Part-5.html) Figure 156 "Bottle Cork Tie".
If you want something a bit more eye catching, we can explore this with you. Just let me know.
Hope this helps.
SS
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The bottle cork tie is quick and easy - I have used it many times to seal bottles of samples (beer and spirits mainly) for official test where evidence of tampering was essential so we dipped the top of the cork in a dish of hot sealing wax very briefly - this sealed the knot and made it impossible to remove the cork without it being obvious. The sealing wax actually adds a nice touch (especially with a small trademark seal impressed - ours was a crown and number) but always try to use natural fibre for your ties - man-made materials are too slippery apart from aesthetic considerations. With a little practice the whole process takes less than a minute. If the string slips off the cork easily try making a shallow groove with a small triangular file - this helps as I found when somebody ordered wax impregnated corks by mistake!!
Barry
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While I could muddle up a piece of twine to do the trick, I am going to be delivering this product to market, so it has to look good and also be very simple and repeatable. Looking at the forums, it seemed that this would be the place to post this, but would also take feedback on throwing this into the Practical Knots section if anyone thinks it would be appropriate...thanks in advance.
Balancing a line over a cylinder end can be a real pain. You might consider laying a piece of fabric or fine mesh netting over the corked end, and then slipping a Boa Knot over the neck to secure the fabric. The coil-twist-fold method is very fast, and if you arrange the knot carefully, it has quite a nice look.
http://notableknotindex.webs.com/boaconstrictor.html
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Thanks, everyone! SS, the 'bottle cork tie' is exactly what I'm looking for; the cork will be left sticking out of the bottle 1/8-1/4" and will allow the string to make its own indentation to secure it in place. I'm definitely planning on using natural materials...going to experiment with various materials in the next month or two. I can't believe how much time I've been spending searching around for this info...glad to have found IGKT!
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So glad we could be helpful to the cause Drugstorebrewer.
I personally would like to see what you do, when you do it with a photograph, if you care to share.
There other possible (decorative) ties to be considered if and when you care to go to the next step.
SS
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Very good!
I'm determined to do this right, so let's do exactly that.
Thanks.
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Saw a vintage bottle of spirits once that had a twine tie. It may have been leather I just don't remember.
Another method to try would be the "champagne-knot" not the "beer knot" as depicted here > http://books.google.com/books?id=miHrAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA300&lpg=PA300&dq=champagne-knot&source=bl&ots=nY1U-dk1V2&sig=ioady6BpwS6h1oYHqipvWxhIp9c&hl=en&sa=X&ei=G4gQT4a4DMbdtgfi6Ph0&ved=0CDwQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=champagne-knot&f=false (http://books.google.com/books?id=miHrAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA300&lpg=PA300&dq=champagne-knot&source=bl&ots=nY1U-dk1V2&sig=ioady6BpwS6h1oYHqipvWxhIp9c&hl=en&sa=X&ei=G4gQT4a4DMbdtgfi6Ph0&ved=0CDwQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=champagne-knot&f=false)
The knot going around the bottle's neck.
It is probably the simplest method, if you have many to do.
What knot you use on top of the cork can be many, depending on whether you want the consumer to use a knife/scissors or be able to pull the knot open by pulling the ends.
SS
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Hi DrugstoreBrewer,
Glad you found your way to the IGKT forum! Lots of people I send there never show up. :)
Why am I not surprised that you received several quality answers?... The depth of knowledge here is astounding.
Glad to be learning about these cork knots too. And to be discovering the pharmacy book from which SS369 extracted that Champagne knot.
To add a bit of reference info to the thread, here are the two solutions Ashley mentions (you know one of them from our prior correspondence). #371 is a piece of fabric on top of the cork, held at the neck by a constrictor (similar to Roo's suggestion, who instead uses the boa, a "double constrictor").
But the one that really gets my attention is #370. You lay one piece of adhesive tape across the top of the cork, so that the ends come down the edges of the bottle's neck. And you loop a second piece of adhesive tape around the neck, so that it holds the first piece of tape in place!!!
How is that for a suggestion by a master knotter... :)
Highly practical, though.
I haven't read Ashley from cover to cover, so I was surprised to see adhesive tape mentioned there.
Wishing you all a fun weekend.
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Champagne knot?! That just made my day (which is a pretty big deal as its my 40th birthday today). Really appreciate all the info and willingness to help!
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For remembering...
The Beer Knot (Fig. 332) is based on a slipped Overhand, like a Marlinspike Hitch is.
The first Champagne knot (Fig. 336) is based on a slipped Figure Eight.
The second Champagne knot (Fig. 340) is based on a slipped Overhand.
http://books.google.com/books?id=miHrAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA300&lpg=PA300&dq=champagne-knot&source=bl&ots=nY1U-dk1V2&sig=ioady6BpwS6h1oYHqipvWxhIp9c&hl=en&sa=X&ei=G4gQT4a4DMbdtgfi6Ph0&ved=0CDwQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=champagne-knot&f=false (http://books.google.com/books?id=miHrAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA300&lpg=PA300&dq=champagne-knot&source=bl&ots=nY1U-dk1V2&sig=ioady6BpwS6h1oYHqipvWxhIp9c&hl=en&sa=X&ei=G4gQT4a4DMbdtgfi6Ph0&ved=0CDwQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=champagne-knot&f=false)
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The pics of these knots look cool, but I'm wondering who has actually used the Champagne Knot. What were the materials? How did it work out for you?
I tried the Champagne knot (slipped Fig Eight) on a wine bottle with a plastic cork. I was using jute twine. I tied a Square knot on top. I couldn't get the knot as tight as desired. Also, it was relatively easy to slide the knot off to the side.
I know those aren't "ideal" materials. So, that's why I'm wondering what others have used. Hmmm, is the Beer knot better than the Champagne knot?
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I'm still gathering materials, so I haven't put the twine to bottle yet.
I am wondering about the top knot...I was thinking of a square knot as well, then trim the loose ends close to the knot or something.
The picture of the champagne knot has the two loose ends wrapping around each other a few times, which looks nice but I can't imagine it holding the cork in place.
Any ideas for a simple and perhaps decorative knot for the top?
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Hello Drugstorebrewer.
I believe that the pictured knot will work well even though it looks so simple. Simple is good sometimes. The coils of the knot will dig into the cork top and friction would hold it all in place and it probably/maybe was finished off with another to make it a "surgeon's" knot.
Your request begs answering to the question of: Do you want a knot that unties and may be less secure or one that is down right secure/permanent?
I probably would use something you would find on this site http://www.fieggen.com/shoelace/index.htm (http://www.fieggen.com/shoelace/index.htm)
SS
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I am wondering about the top knot...I was thinking of a square knot as well, then trim the loose ends close to the knot or something.
The picture of the champagne knot has the two loose ends wrapping around each other a few times, which looks nice but I can't imagine it holding the cork in place.
If you tie a square knot and trim the ends close it will come undone easily. As SS369 says the simple wrap may work well especially in the likes of jute which has a rough surface. A dab of clear glue on the cork before finishing the knot will help to keep it in place and won't be obvious.
Barry
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You might try the Beer Knot (not Champagne Knot) with a Gleipnir Binder finish. In other words, you bring the free ends up and tie the Gleipnir Binder at the top. I haven't tried this yet. So, it might be non-workable.
As far as being decorative, I would work on getting something to work first. Decoration can be added relatively easily with some creativity.
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Taking Barry's suggestion a step further. If there will be considerable handling of the bottle(s) you could drip a tiny drop of sealing wax (nice color) over the knot of choice, thus locking the knot semi-permanently.
SS
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Got it.
Thanks for the input on this.
Next step is to bring in a bunch of bottles and test it out!
I'll be in touch and let you know how this comes along.
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Glad to be of service Drugstorebrewer.
Please bring some pictures with the next update!
SS
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Balancing a line over a cylinder end can be a real pain. You might consider laying a piece of fabric or fine mesh netting over the corked end, and then slipping a Boa Knot over the neck to secure the fabric. The coil-twist-fold method is very fast, and if you arrange the knot carefully, it has quite a nice look.
http://notableknotindex.webs.com/boaconstrictor.html
I'd like to offer a variation on this.
Instead of fabric, you could lay a separate short cord over the cork and let it drape down. Then, throw the Boa or Constrictor Knot over the neck and cork cord ends. Before tightening the Boa/Constrictor, tuck the cork cord ends under the Boa/Constrictor cords one more time for extra friction.
Let me know if you need a diagram for clarity.
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Hello Everyone,
I found this thread while looking for info on how a brewery called Ale Apothecary ties the corks on its beer bottles. I believe DrugstoreBrewer may be the owner of Ale Apothecray and there are photos online of their bottles and the knots used.
Regardless, I found this thread super informative and useful. I just bottled up some barrel aged saison with a high carbonation level and used the Champagne Knot with one modification: I didn't quite trust the surgeon's knot on the top and that friction would hold so I just added a square knot on top of that to fully secure the knot and corks. The simplicity of the knot is impressive and once you've done it once or twice it's easy to redo again and again quickly for additional bottles.
The bottles are still carbonating so I don't know for certain that this will be successful but I'm fairly confident. Here is a link to a photo of the finished bottles: https://photos.app.goo.gl/cIfhjKSLWbSuRoYv2
If it is okay with you guys I would like to write a post about this on my blog (http://mutedog.beer/). I will link back to here in the post of course.
Thanks for sharing your expertise!
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Hi Mutedog and welcome,
about the Champagne Knot, it is usually tied two times in a crossed form as you can see in the following picture
(http://avis-vin.lefigaro.fr/var/img/161/40089-650x330-le-ficelage-des-bouchons.jpg)
(http://avis-vin.lefigaro.fr/magazine-vin/o40089-dans-les-secrets-du-champagne/le-ficelage-des-bouchons)
You can find some historical notes (in French) and a tying method at
http://carcapsules.over-blog.com/pages/HISTOIRE_DU_MUSELET_ET_DE_SA_PLAQUE_DE_COLLECTION-5379006.html
In Italy, it is used a single legature (by tying a Beer Knot) but the twine is doubled on top as you can see in the following videos
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oxm8JjZ6uKQ
or
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ljGHIoelKVs
(0:18" - 0:40")
Please notice the different internal pressure of the Champagne, Prosecco, Beer ...
Hope this helps.
Ciao,
s.
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Interesting about the double champagne knot. It looks like they seem to trust the surgeon's knot on top and cut the cord right at the edges too. I like the added grooves cut into the top of the cork, though that adds an extra step.
Thanks for the extra info!