International Guild of Knot Tyers Forum

General => Practical Knots => Topic started by: knot4u on October 13, 2011, 03:04:19 AM

Title: Mid-Air Binders
Post by: knot4u on October 13, 2011, 03:04:19 AM
I define a mid-air binder as a binder that does not require the knot to touch the object.  They're useful knots to know!  I recall being embarrassed once when I tried to tie Reef in mid-air.  At the time, I thought the Reef could handle all my binding needs.  I was wrong!  As another example, a Constrictor hitch is not a mid-air binder because it needs to touch the object in order for the knot to hold.

Here are my favorite mid-air binders:


For most of these, I slip the working end.  I most often use Two Half Hitches Slipped.  I know:  It's boring and simple.  However, it is quick and works well enough for most applications.  I sometimes add a Half Hitch lock at the standing end for more security.

It's important to note these knots are ring loaded if they're tied in a binder.  That's one thing that makes them binders, rather than hitches.
Title: Re: Mid-Air Binders
Post by: xarax on October 13, 2011, 12:16:08 PM
   I understand that there are two situations where we may need such a knot :   
  A1. A mid/air binder, where we have access to both ends of our rope. When we want to bind tightly a bunch of objects, but the point where we tie the knot is not in touch with the surface of any of them, so we want our knot to remain tied and tensioned, suspended in mid air.
   And/or :
  A2. An binder + hitch application, where we have access to one only end of our rope. When we want to bind and pull a bunch of objects, but anticipate that we will may need to remove some of them at some time later, without untying the knot. ( or that some of them will slip off by themselves !   :)). However, we want our knot to hold even after this, to remain tied even if not tensioned as a binder, but as a hitch, suspended in mid air, or as fixed end-of-line loop, that will sometimes be more or less ( :)) "ring loaded".
   Binding tightly tubes together, when we plan to be able to move them and remove some of them without untying the knot and tying / tensioning it again, is the first thing that comes to my mind, where we have a situation 2. And if the tubes are only a few, we still have a situation 1, even if we do not remove some of them - because we can not probably be sure that a knot tied on the hard surface of one tube will remain at this point later on.
   We may have enough room o move our hand(s) around the point we want to / can tie our knot - or we may not. So, the possible situations are doubled ( B1 and B2).  If we do have enough room, any end-of-line bend that can be tightly tied at the first place, can possibly serve as a mid-air binder B1, and many of them also as mid-air binders + hitches B2 - because pulling them by a tail will not untie the knot.  If we do not have enough room, and we are forced to tie the knot in mid-air and tighten it only afterwards, we have to :
1. tie a noose around the object(s), tighten it and then secure it somehow.
2. tie a loop on the one end, and then pass the other end through it, pull it and tighten the knot, and then secure it, as in the previous case.
3. Tie an adjustable binder like one of the many we have been talking about the other day, and then tighten the knot by pulling the end(s) parallel to the surface of the object(s), and then secure it/them.
4.... 
   The problem is very interesting, I believe. I do not have much experience in this kind of situations, and I can not tell right now what is the best knot of the many one can think of.
   The only thing we can not do, is to achieve this purpose by tying two  half hitches   :) ( you will need four...) - unless you mean tying the Sheet bend, the Whatknot, or any of the four double harness bends we might consider to be interwoven half hitches. Can one manage to tie any those knots tightly enough, so they can serve as mid-air binders ?
Title: Re: Mid-Air Binders
Post by: TMCD on October 13, 2011, 01:38:23 PM
I tie mid air binders ALL the time when tying down my ladders on my truck. I not only tie them down at the ladder rack point, which is obviously two points per ladder, but I'll put a packer's knot in the middle of the stack too. I'd rather use the Gleipnir but it just takes up so darn much more material to tie properly.

Here lately, I've been tying down my ladders using all packers knots. Tying the figure eight around the standing part and then hauling down tight with a half hitch lock. I've been doing this even on the racks themselves...I was using a truckers hitch for the part that sits atop the ladder rack but the packer's knot is easier to tie and I don't have to climb a ladder.

The Gleipnir's a thing of simplicity and beauty IMO but Jeez, it takes up a lot of rope to actually utilize it. I've been toying around with it on books and such and it will destroy a hardback book if you're not careful. The packer's knot gets no where near the tension of the Gleipnir. The license plate on my old fishing boat is tied down with a Gleipnir and then a square knot for good measure. I had to be careful when tying it around the plate, I could've easily forced enough tension to bend the crap out of the plate. It's tied around box tubing too...constrictors and such weren't going to work in this case...a packer's not would've though.
Title: Re: Mid-Air Binders
Post by: knot4u on October 13, 2011, 06:05:25 PM
   The only thing we can not do, is to achieve this purpose by tying two  half hitches   :) ( you will need four...) - unless you mean tying the Sheet bend, the Whatknot, or any of the four double harness bends we might consider to be interwoven half hitches. Can one manage to tie any those knots tightly enough, so they can serve as mid-air binders ?

With boot laces or 550 paracord, I can tie a mid-air binder just fine by using Two Half Hitches (slipped for untying convenience).  The main limitation is my strength.  For me, it works better than the Packer Knot.

Of course, an improvement on Two Half Hitches is a Tautline, which is basically Two Half Hitches with an added Turn in there.  When the Tautline is used as a mid-air binder (a.o.t. hitch), it's being ring loaded, which involves different forces than the hitch form.
Title: Re: Mid-Air Binders
Post by: TMCD on October 13, 2011, 08:02:47 PM
   The only thing we can not do, is to achieve this purpose by tying two  half hitches   :) ( you will need four...) - unless you mean tying the Sheet bend, the Whatknot, or any of the four double harness bends we might consider to be interwoven half hitches. Can one manage to tie any those knots tightly enough, so they can serve as mid-air binders ?

With boot laces or 550 paracord, I can tie a mid-air binder just fine by using Two Half Hitches (slipped for untying convenience).  The main limitation is my strength.  For me, it works better than the Packer Knot.

Of course, an improvement on Two Half Hitches is a Tautline, which is basically Two Half Hitches with an added Turn in there.  When the Tautline is used as a mid-air binder (a.o.t. hitch), it's being ring loaded, which involves different forces than the hitch form.
When you say using two half hitches, I assume you're basically tying a packer's knot? The only difference being you're not using the fig 8 but just a half hitch and then you're taking the SE and locking it with a HH?? Is this correct?
Title: Re: Mid-Air Binders
Post by: knot4u on October 13, 2011, 11:37:29 PM
It's simpler than you think.  Here's what I mean by Two Half Hitches for a mid-air binder, except I usually slip the working end.

(http://i54.tinypic.com/zobyol.jpg)

That pic looks like a hitch, but you get the idea.  Just imagine the green object as being huge.  Below is the slipped version.  After cinching down, the knot may be made more secure by applying a Packer Knot ending (not shown in pic).

(http://i55.tinypic.com/m795dh.jpg)
(http://i52.tinypic.com/2qmepex.jpg)

(http://i54.tinypic.com/2a5ya84.jpg)
(http://i54.tinypic.com/2vw5h8g.jpg)
Title: Re: Mid-Air Binders
Post by: xarax on October 14, 2011, 02:42:13 AM
That pic[ture looks like a hitch, but you get the idea.  Just imagine that ...object as being huge.

   The size of the oblect can not make a hitch to look like -or turned into - something else...This hitch will be safe as a binder only if the standing end is and remains loaded. If it is not, we should use 4 half hitches...or find something more clever.
Title: Re: Mid-Air Binders
Post by: knot4u on October 14, 2011, 05:17:35 AM
That pic[ture looks like a hitch, but you get the idea.  Just imagine that ...object as being huge.

   The size of the oblect can not make a hitch to look like -or turned into - something else...This hitch will be safe as a binder only if the standing end is and remains loaded. If it is not, we should use 4 half hitches...or find something more clever.

I believe the knot in your pic is overly complicated and inconvenient if the knot happens to be pressed against the object.  Instead, obtain final security by applying an ending like in the Packer Knot.  In other words, after cinching down, use the standing end to tie a Half Hitch around the (slipped) working end.  This ending will hold secure and won't jam.  Further, you don't need access to the tip of the standing end.  To untie, simply undue the Half Hitch at the standing end, and then pull out the slipped working end.
Title: Re: Mid-Air Binders
Post by: Sweeney on October 14, 2011, 08:43:21 AM
Of course, an improvement on Two Half Hitches is a Tautline, which is basically Two Half Hitches with an added Turn in there.  When the Tautline is used as a mid-air binder (a.o.t. hitch), it's being ring loaded, which involves different forces than the hitch form.

I have used the Gleipnir many times now - especially as a throw away knot around rubbish secured with a half hitch either side and as a binder to keep the lid on my lunch box because the catch slips (in the latter case I use cheap garden string which generates high friction and cut it off!).

However I had a try with a tautline as it uses less cordage (and it can be loosened to add more to a bundle. Has a better grip than the packer's knot which I  only occasionally used when it would be cut off rather than undone. Now I'll use whichever seems best at the time (large bundles, the tautline but my lunch box can stay with string-and-Gleipnir simply because I like it).

Barry
Title: Re: Mid-Air Binders
Post by: xarax on October 14, 2011, 10:27:43 AM
...the knot in your pic is overly complicated and inconvenient if the knot happens to be pressed against the object. 

   Evidently...I said it is NOT clever, so you can imagine what do I think it is... :)
   However, it is the simplest secure arrangement using (non-interlocking) half-hitches, and half hitches only. The knot in your  picture, with two half hitches, is not secure. 
   The most simple secure arrangement of two interlocking half hitches I was able to figure out, is shown in the attached pictures. The second (at the right) half hitch can be tied in any of the two orientations (A or B).( I do not know if it has an(other) name, or if it can be considered as a variation of another knot.)
   
 
 
Title: Re: Mid-Air Binders
Post by: knot4u on October 14, 2011, 05:37:46 PM
Hi Xarax, I'll have to try out your knot!  However, before this gets out of hand, understand we are fundamentally talking about different concepts.

The Two Half Hitches I'm describing is like a replacement for the Figure 8 in a Packer Knot.  I showed the pics as an unfinished knot for simplification.  The knot holds the tension before you take a breath and then finish it.  As I explained above, once you're done cinching down, you can add a Half Hitch ending like in the Packer Knot.  This ending is totally secure, and the knot cannot be made loose by pulling on the loop portion of knot.  Also, you don't need access to the tip of the standing end.  As long as you have access to the tip of the working end, you can just as easily tie this knot in a rope that is one million feet long.

For non-critical applications, you don't need to apply the Packer Knot ending, and the Two Half Hitches will hold well enough.  I do this when the knot needs to hold for a short while and when someone else may need to untie the knot.  Last weekend, I used Two Half Hitches (Slipped) to keep closed an overfilled ice cooler.  (My bootlace was too short for a Gleipnir.)  The cooler was tossed around in the back of my car, but the knot held secure until my 9-year-old niece (who knows nothing about knots) was able to untie the knot by firmly pulling the slip, just as I planned.
Title: Re: Mid-Air Binders
Post by: xarax on October 14, 2011, 06:48:48 PM
...what I'm describing is like a replacement for the Figure 8 in a Packer Knot.[/b]

  That makes sense, (now ! )  :) However, if you want to secure this knot by half hitches, you will probably need two  more - and not only one, as you say -, so the complete knot would be the same as the 4 hitches knot we condemned as overly complicated and not-so-clever. 
   So, you are trying solutions for the "loop" part of the situations described at Reply#1.

2. tie a loop on the one end, and then pass the other end through it, pull it and tighten the knot, and then secure it...

    You tie two half hitches to make the "neck" of a noose, and then you secure the tail of this noose by one, or two ( as I think you should...) half hitches.
   My solution shown in Reply#9 , for the same part, ( left, in my picture ) involves something that could be considered as one half hitch, or as the one link of a Sheet bend . Because of the tight way the two parts are interlinked, to complete this knot we could possibly use only one half hitch  ( that can be tie in the one (a) or the other (B) orientation).
  Try the knot, and tell me if it is secure enough as it is, or if the second (right, in my picture) part , should better need two half hitches, to be absolutely secure.
   ( I do not have much experience in using "sliped" endings, but I agree that they are useful means to prevent jamming.)
Title: Re: Mid-Air Binders
Post by: knot4u on October 14, 2011, 07:08:01 PM
...what I'm describing is like a replacement for the Figure 8 in a Packer Knot.[/b]

  That makes sense, (now ! )  :) However, if you want to secure this knot by half hitches, you will probably need two  more - and not only one, as you say -, so the complete knot would be the same as the 4 hitches knot we condemned as overly complicated and not-so-clever.

If you're using climbing rope or whatever that is you're using, I can see why you think more Half Hitches are necessary.  However, when I use bootlaces or 550 paracord, one Half Hitch lock is sufficient (just like in the ending of the Packer Knot).  Actually, the Half Hitch lock is usually overkill for non-critical applications where I'm using boot laces or 550 paracord.
Title: Re: Mid-Air Binders
Post by: Hrungnir on October 14, 2011, 09:59:37 PM
For non-critical applications, you don't need to apply the Packer Knot ending, and the Two Half Hitches will hold well enough.
I believe this is a very good point made by knot4u, not only in binders, but all working knots. For most applications, it's more useful to be able to tie (and untie) something quickly than secure, which explains the popularity of knots such as bowline, sheet bend, reef knot and clove hitch.

I would use the buntline hitch instead of three-four half hitches (suggested by xarax) to add more security and tension, but there's probably a greater risk for the buntline to jam.

For a flying binder where the object isn't too small and tension is important, I would choose the versatackle.



Title: Re: Mid-Air Binders
Post by: xarax on October 14, 2011, 10:32:09 PM
   "Two Half Hitches will never slip."
    I believe that we use two half hitches most of the times, probably because we  need them more than the knots themselves. I mean, our eyes are so accustomed to the image of it, our hands are so accustomed to the gesture of tyimg them, that our brains have no choice but follow, whether it is really needed by the particular material or not...
Title: Re: Mid-Air Binders
Post by: xarax on December 02, 2011, 04:47:58 PM
  The mid-air binder shown in Reply#9 (1) and at the attached pictures, can also be described as a " Blackwall-hitch-tied-through-an-overhand-knot " ( and not through a hook, as the ABoK#1875 ). Ashley mentions that the Blackwall hitch " is never quite safe unless the rope is large enough to fill the mouth of the hook ". With an overhand knot, it is the "mouth" that shrinks  :), so the rope can not but fill it, however large or small it might be.

   1. During the set-up and dress phase, make sure you keep the (left link) tail adjacent and parallel to its standing end ( as shown in the first picture of Reply#9).
   2. If necessary, secure the binder further by one half hitch at the left link, or one half hitch at each link.

1. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3656.msg21113#msg21113
Title: Re: Mid-Air Binders
Post by: Dan_Lehman on December 03, 2011, 09:06:50 PM
A superior "mid-air binder" has been presented now in a couple
of threads, starting with my presentation here:

http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1449.msg10281;topicseen#msg10281 (http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1449.msg10281;topicseen#msg10281)
Attached is a photo of the TurNip-in-Eye structure that I used in tensioning
some shelving frames (to hold in place while a metal X brace was installed).
This structure will give stronger nip in cases where the material cannot flow
around the object and tighten the TurNip so well.

... and repeated & reiterated here:

http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=2996.0 (http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=2996.0)

I just fiddled this in 2mm? PP kernmantle, which nicely holds
a 25# weight; and in 1/4" PP 3-strand rope, which holds but
which I can't further hoist/tension a 37# weight (one end of
the structure is girth-hitched to 'biner clipping weight, the
other runs around a 'biner at the top; I'm hauling downwards
trying to increase tension, but in vain).  YMMV.


--dl*
====
Title: Re: Mid-Air Binders
Post by: xarax on December 04, 2011, 12:18:42 AM
   I think that we are talking about two quite different types of knots here ( but I am not sure I can explain what I mean...). At the end of the tightening phase, we can have one, more or less compact, knot nub, i.e. a proper bend - OR we can have two knots nubs, at some distance the one from the other, connected by their tails, that form a compound knot ( the tail of the one knot penetrating the nub of the other knot ), i.e. a proper binder. Some of the knots described at this thread belong to the first type ( for example, the knot described at Replies #9 and #15 ) and some to the second ( the Gleipnir and Gleipnir- like binders, the Trucker and Versatackle (single and double) binders, and the knots described at 1, 2 and 3 ). In both cases, at the end of the tightening phase, the two standing ends of the two links are brought close the one to the other by the pulling of the one or both tails. However,   
1 :  in the first case, the end result is one fixed knot, and the standing ends can not be brought closer any more, at this or at some other time later.
2 : in the second case, the tails can be pulled more, and the standing ends can be brought closer, even after the two tails are locked by the two knot nubs. In fact, in the second case the end result is a two-nub compound knot.

1. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1870.msg21229#msg21229
2. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1451.msg10074#msg10074
3. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1870.msg17414#msg17414
Title: Re: Mid-Air Binders
Post by: knot4u on September 03, 2012, 08:39:37 PM
I would use the buntline hitch instead of three-four half hitches (suggested by xarax) to add more security and tension, but there's probably a greater risk for the buntline to jam.

A Buntline (ABOK #1711) is difficult to jam as a mid-air binder. I have a strong feeling we're not having a meeting of the minds. Pics may be necessary.
Title: Re: Mid-Air Binders
Post by: Urfin on October 31, 2012, 10:35:40 PM
  • Adjustable Grip Reversed

Hi, I've tried googling the "Adjustable Grip Reversed" knot, but this seems to be the only place it's mentioned. Since you mention it first, it must be interesting.  I've tried guessing in what sense it is "reversed" and this is what I came up with. Is this what you've meant?
Title: Re: Mid-Air Binders
Post by: Luca on November 01, 2012, 01:28:31 AM
Hello Urfin,

I'm not sure, but I think it's the same difference between the Buntline hitch and the Two Half hitches: Imagine that you cut the loop of the Adjustable Grip hitch, and then you"melt" the leg of the loop adjacent to the standing part to the tail.I think that this is the knot mentioned by knot4u.
You instead have "melted" the other leg of the loop with the standing part of the original Adjustable Grippig,using the leg adjacent to the standing part as the new standing part.(I do not know, maybe the knot that you show  still has some interesting features!)(and please excuse me for my bad English and explanation!)

                                                                                                           Bye!
Title: Re: Mid-Air Binders
Post by: knot4u on November 01, 2012, 01:49:30 AM
  • Adjustable Grip Reversed

Hi, I've tried googling the "Adjustable Grip Reversed" knot, but this seems to be the only place it's mentioned. Since you mention it first, it must be interesting.  I've tried guessing in what sense it is "reversed" and this is what I came up with. Is this what you've meant?

Yes, that's what I meant! Thank you for the pic I can put in my library. You can add a slip for an easy untie. Have you tested it as a mid-air binder?
Title: Re: Mid-Air Binders
Post by: knot4u on November 01, 2012, 02:56:25 AM
Imagine that you cut the loop of the Adjustable Grip hitch, and then you"melt" the leg of the loop adjacent to the standing part to the tail.I think that this is the knot mentioned by knot4u.
You instead have "melted" the other leg of the loop with the standing part of the original Adjustable Grippig,using the leg adjacent to the standing part as the new standing part.

Interesting, that's a new knot and different than what I meant.  With your knot, I anticipate a problem if the bind is really strong.  Also, that structure doesn't provide much leverage to cinch down strongly.  However, it may be suitable for lightweight jobs that don't require a strong cinch.  Have you tried it out?
Title: Re: Mid-Air Binders
Post by: kd8eeh on November 01, 2012, 03:24:24 AM
firstly, could someone  show what exactly is a glempir knot?  i am not familiar.  secondly, i find that a constrictor knot often makes a perfectly fine mid air binder, because a constrictor requires two loops to be held close together yet slide opposite directions.  the knot will squeeze well and then will hold very well by friction with the surfaces it is touching, and also a constrictor knot when pulled taught enough will provide it's own simulated surface with the outer strand, assuming that the knot is under constant tension.  if not, they it may be very easily reenforced with a half knot, and that holds excelently.
Title: Re: Mid-Air Binders
Post by: roo on November 01, 2012, 05:00:12 AM
firstly, could someone  show what exactly is a glempir knot?  i am not familiar.
I've attached a picture below.  The Gleipnir is probably the most over-hyped tensioner on this board.  It uses a lot of rope to barely apply any tension, and usually only works in open air.  It loses tension or completely falls apart if it is loaded funny or otherwise tampered with. 

It's pathetic.
Title: Re: Mid-Air Binders
Post by: knot4u on November 01, 2012, 05:10:37 AM
(http://i1221.photobucket.com/albums/dd468/iq201/Public/Bind-GleipnirX.jpg)
Gleipnir X

This version of the Gleipnir is quite useful.  I have about 10 bundles of different stuff around my house bound together with a Gleipnir X in 550 paracord, jute twine, or nylon string.

This version below has a bit more cinch.  It's the same concept but with an added nipping turn.

(http://i1221.photobucket.com/albums/dd468/iq201/Public/Bind-GleipnirXDouble.jpg)
Gleipnir X Double
Title: Re: Mid-Air Binders
Post by: X1 on November 01, 2012, 04:29:15 PM
This version below has a bit more cinch.  It's the same concept but with an added nipping turn.

   I think that this picture is not as informative as it could be. It does not show very clearly the "twist" of the tails inside the "tube" made by the three nipping loops. For the single as well as the double hitch to work at 100% of their potential, the tails inside the tube should be in an "elbow" configuration (ABoK#35) - i.e., the shape of their paths inside the knot s nub should be that of a double helix. However, a helix has a "helicity", so there are two possible double helices. The picture at the previous post shows ( not very clearly...) the one, the picture at the present post shows the other.
    I tried to describe, verbally, how differently the double version can be tied, but I failed - and the only thing left was to show a picture, of the "other" way the tails can form the "other" double helix. When tied around a pole, the "tube" has a certain inclination to the axis of the pole, so the two ways are different from each other - and I believe this "other" way - the way shown at the attached picture of the present post - leads to tighter knots than the way shown at the picture of the previous post. The way we can see which way is which  :) :), is to watch the ends of the tails : If they pass over the continuations of the tails before they enter the "tube" of the triple nipping loop, it is the one way - if it passes under them, it is the "other" way. If in the one it can be considered that the tails make a clock-wise turn, in the other they make a counter-clockwise turn, and vice versa.
   It might be interesting to mention that the double hitch is identical to a triple Strangle hitch, where the middle round turn has not gone around the pole, but it has been left to shrink around the knot itself. (1)
   I believe that this hitch is probably the most under-estimated tensioner of this board, and one of the best adjustable binders we have. It is superb ( an antonym to "pathetic"). To go beyond this hitch, one would need to use the mechanical advantage offered by some other, more complex hitches - but this is another subject. On the subject of this thread, I wish to say that I believe it remains open : there might well be other binders that would be equally good, and even better, than the ones we know.

1. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3174.msg19045#msg19045
Title: Re: Mid-Air Binders
Post by: Luca on November 01, 2012, 04:57:33 PM
Hi knot4u,

Hello Urfin,

I'm not sure, but I think it's the same difference between the Buntline hitch and the Two Half hitches: Imagine that you cut the loop of the Adjustable Grip hitch, and then you"melt" the leg of the loop adjacent to the standing part to the tail.I think that this is the knot mentioned by knot4u.
You instead have "melted" the other leg of the loop with the standing part of the original Adjustable Grippig,using the leg adjacent to the standing part as the new standing part.(I do not know, maybe the knot that you show  still has some interesting features!)(and please excuse me for my bad English and explanation!)

                                                                                                           Bye!

OK .. he he .. I just got it all wrong! Apart from that"manipulating"the Buntline in both of these ways i described are obtained,however,two identical Two Half hitches,I would have appropriately to wait the answer by you,that you are the original poster,instead I was to answer to Urfin,also misinterpreting your meaning about the Adjustable Grip Reversed.Please excuse me for this!


Imagine that you cut the loop of the Adjustable Grip hitch, and then you"melt" the leg of the loop adjacent to the standing part to the tail.I think that this is the knot mentioned by knot4u.
You instead have "melted" the other leg of the loop with the standing part of the original Adjustable Grippig,using the leg adjacent to the standing part as the new standing part.

Interesting, that's a new knot and different than what I meant.  With your knot, I anticipate a problem if the bind is really strong.  Also, that structure doesn't provide much leverage to cinch down strongly.  However, it may be suitable for lightweight jobs that don't require a strong cinch.  Have you tried it out?

My impression is that as an experimenter of practical knots in the field, I'm worth a thousandth of what you're worth;what I did was to roll up together a pair of thick winter socks in order to obtain a cylinder about 10 cm in diameter, and then I tried the two hitches around it using a 2.5 mm polyester rope:about the Adjustable Grip reversed I personally noticed some little similarity in behavior with what I had tried to describe here:

http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3937.msg23663#msg23663

The difference is that it seems to me that the AGR actually  performs much better his job with respect to binding and gripping,compared to what I proposed there,and also has a good zip tie behavior.
About the other reversal of the standard Adjustable Grip(what I thought was the one which you meant) I liked it because it seems to me that it remains very stable when working, and also has the feature that the binding loop widens by pulling on the tail after the work(if this has not been too heavy,I think!);seemed to me also that holds very well,but I do not have many means nor experience to thoroughly test these aspects.
Eventually,If by this mistake at the end came out a knot which could be of some little interest,okay then,so be it!

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Title: Re: Mid-Air Binders
Post by: knot4u on November 01, 2012, 09:28:34 PM
...i find that a constrictor knot often makes a perfectly fine mid air binder, because a constrictor requires two loops to be held close together yet slide opposite directions.  the knot will squeeze well and then will hold very well by friction with the surfaces it is touching, and also a constrictor knot when pulled taught enough will provide it's own simulated surface with the outer strand, assuming that the knot is under constant tension.  if not, they it may be very easily reenforced with a half knot, and that holds excelently.

After further testing, I'm giving both the Constrictor and the Strangle thumbs down as mid-air binders.  They don't skew the standing end as it passes through the loops.  The skewing is critical for a mid-air binder.  Simply squeezing the standing end is not enough.  Consider the Gleipnir for example.  The standing end(s) naturally stay dressed in a skewed manner when you're all done tightening.  The same is true for other knots I mentioned in the original post.  The skewed portion adds friction and thereby keeps the knot more secure.

Perhaps adding a Half Hitch helps as you said, but then we're making the knot two complex for what it's worth.  I'd rather go with one of the other knots at that point.
Title: Re: Mid-Air Binders
Post by: Urfin on November 02, 2012, 02:16:01 AM
I've played a bit with the Adjustable Grip Reversed a bit and I'm rapidly becoming a fan! The knot seems to simply do just what I need of it: slide or hold just when I want. I've also checked out Luca's variation. I'm trying these knots in several small sizes of kernmantle (6mm down to 2mm accessory cord). Just to make sure we are talking about the same knots and I'm not confusing them, I'm attaching the photos:
1. Adjustable Grip original
2. Adjustable Grip Reversed
3. Adjustable Grip - Luca's Variation

It seems that variation (3) when used as a binder holds less strongly than reversal (2) (AGR). It seems not to like the almost-180-degree angle. Then I tried to apply knot4u's reversal (as in (2)) to Luca's variation (3) with the result of
4. Adjustable Grip - Luca's Variation Reversed
This one seems to function better as a binder, probably closer to (2)'s strength. On the other hand (3) performs better when used with an acute angle between the loop's legs, more like the original Adjustable loop
Title: Re: Mid-Air Binders
Post by: kd8eeh on November 02, 2012, 03:23:30 AM
this is another adjustable grip knot i find useful.  it's very similar to a taught line, but the end is make like a consrictor knot instead of a another half hitch
Title: Re: Mid-Air Binders
Post by: X1 on November 02, 2012, 05:27:07 PM
I'm rapidly becoming a fan! The knot seems to simply do just what I need of it: slide or hold just when I want.

   I understand one s enthusiasm with a knot mechanism : a constant source of joy for the knot-tyer. However, I have to add that there hundreds of similar knot mechanisms, able to "slide or hold just when we want ". The possible " Adjustable Grip" hitches are perhaps the most numerous set of knots, and, of course, we know and use just a few only of them. One can say : I have found one knot that "simply does what I need of it" , end of the story. Most knot users do exactly this. Or, he can ask himself : " Is there any other knot that can do even more, much better ?" If he falls into that trap, he becomes a knot tyer... and me, personally, does not know if there is any way to free himself from this, ever.
   There are many "occupational knots" used by specialists that are meant to function as adjustable hitches : by climbers and arthroscopic surgeons, for example... Knots that are used as one link of bends, or as hitches, can also be used as adjustable grip hitches, if they grip the straight tensioned line hard enough - I guess that many fishing knots can be transformed and used in a similar manner. It would be nice if there was a systematic presentation of all those knots, but I am afraid that the present knot tying community has not reached the critical mass needed to be able to do what has to be done.
Title: Re: Mid-Air Binders
Post by: Luca on November 02, 2012, 10:34:22 PM
Hi Urfin,

Great knotty work, and very beautiful photos!Thanks.

The knots that you to show also to me seem those that have been discussed.
Handling with these 4 versions of the knot, when I decided to simplify the knot to the maximum (thus avoiding adding any additional wraps that usually are added  to increase the grip), I realized that fundamentally the Adjustable Grip is a hitch, around the SPart of which,is provided a Groundline hitch:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Groundline_hitch

If you note, with regard to 1(the original AG)and 2(AGR (orRAG)),the groundline hitch around the SPart is loaded on the contrary from the leg of the loop adjacent to it, with respect to the knot linked by me above;while, with regard to 3 ("Luca's Variation"? .. oh .. oh .. thanks!But maybe it's more appropriate"misunderstanding variation",and for 4"Urfin Reversed misunderstanding variation"!)and 4,the Groundline is loaded in the same way of the standard Groundline by the leg of the loop.
Now, if 1 and 2 are normally used respectively: 1,for a normal loading around a pole thin enough to make sure that the two legs of the loop remain almost parallel (loading the "inverted" Groundline lenghtwise respect to the SPart to which it is wrapped);and 2,for the mid air loading around an object much larger than the diameter of the rope,so that the two legs of loops diverge with a very wide angle(loading the inverted Groundline perpendicular to the SPart),and if 1 and 2 are better than 3 and (perhaps!) 4, for these two different tasks, and I think so, if only because they are considered as knots recognized and experienced,then I wonder (a little off topic (and of course I'm not asking only to you,Urfin))if the reversed Groundline hitch is actually a hitch better[in perpendicular and  lenghtwise(both lenghtwise directions?)loading] than the standard Groundline.
 EDIT:Although, on second thought, maybe it's a silly question, because the task of a "pure" Groundline Hitch is different from the task that has a Groundline hitch(reversed or not)  applied to Spart of an Adjustable Grip hitch.

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Title: Re: Mid-Air Binders
Post by: Urfin on November 19, 2012, 12:17:50 AM
X1
You're right that was not informative. I had in mind (and neglected to describe) the following behaviour: when the object is not very large and you tight the reversed AG loosely so that the legs of the loop form an acute angle, it's possible to simple pull on the standing end and the loop tightens like a noose (depending on the material it might need a little help moving the knot). When it tightens and gets close to the bound object it switches to the standard friction hitch mode of operation. This feature seamed to me very convenient and together with the ease of tying (much faster than Blake for me) made me enthusiastic about it.

Luca
I've only used the Groundline hitch (and its beefed up version, I think it's called Ossel knot) to hitch to a thicker line:
(http://i48.tinypic.com/2a7sg93.jpg)
Title: Re: Mid-Air Binders
Post by: Luca on November 22, 2012, 07:35:34 PM
Hi Urfin,
 
Luca
I've only used the Groundline hitch (and its beefed up version, I think it's called Ossel knot) to hitch to a thicker line:
(http://i48.tinypic.com/2a7sg93.jpg)

This maybe has to do with my silly question which I wrote above,I think;the knot used around the standing part of the hitches we've talked about, in their shape is,however,like a Groundline hitch(if you reduce it"to the bone"), in any case I thank you, because I did not know the variation you speak: is this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sqCC9okfzd4

                                                                                                  Bye!