International Guild of Knot Tyers Forum

General => Practical Knots => Topic started by: Andy on September 16, 2011, 09:59:18 PM

Title: "Crochet hitch"
Post by: Andy on September 16, 2011, 09:59:18 PM
Greetings, knot people. :)

Sorry about the long absence... I have been flat out with renovations and for months had given up on all hobbies, such as the delicious time spent reading experts discuss strange knots the forum. I hope all of you are in good health.

Wow, how long has the "best truckie" post become... I wouldn't have a clue how to join such a discussion again!!! But now that I am trying to crawl out of my inbox, a message that has been sitting there seems like the perfect chance to reconnect.

It is from a sailing gentleman with whom I have been corresponding on and off about everything except knots---except recently. Now he sent me a picture of a knot that he learned in his parts of Canada. He says that he loves it and that it was passed on to him as a variation of a knot from crochet.

The challenge, of course, is to identify it. I know it might be an immediate task for some of you who are deeply rooted in both sailing and ABOK. Or it might not... :)

Here's a picture:
(http://a.yu8.us/fora/cr_k-crochet.jpg)

And here's what the gentleman says about his knot:

Quote
Also, in boating, I often find the need to tie a line around a piling or through a ring without having access to the bitter end of the line. Most people use "half-hitches-on-the-bight" but an old friend taught me what seems to be a "crochet" or "macram?" knot - very elegant, having the 3 knot attributes of easy to tie, very secure, and very easy to untie. (The half-hitch-bight thing binds.)

I did take a photo recently of the "crochet knot" it doesn't show how to construct it. You can see that I pass the end through the loop in case it slips, and over 15+ years it never has. The knot ties quickly and easily, and unties similarly, never jamming. And it uses the middle of a (long) line, so the ends does not require threading through at all (except for that safety-against-slipping bit).

If needed, I will request another picture.

Looking forward to your insights and
Wishing you all a beautiful weekend,


-Andy
Title: Re: "Crochet hitch"
Post by: roo on September 17, 2011, 12:08:51 AM
That photo is a bit too messy for me to figure out.  But as far as hitches on the bight, there are some options.

For a pile:
http://notableknotindex.webs.com/pilehitch.html

For no access to the object end:
http://notableknotindex.webs.com/tumblehitch.html
http://notableknotindex.webs.com/timberhitch.html  (Tumbling Timber Hitch & Timber Hitch on the Bight)
http://notableknotindex.webs.com/haltersiberian.html  (last diagram)
http://notableknotindex.webs.com/midspan.html (not quite a hitch, though)
Title: Re: "Crochet hitch"
Post by: SS369 on September 17, 2011, 04:38:12 PM
Hi Andy and welcome back.

Just a stab at what this is.

Looks like a ABOK# 1157 Rolling hitch tied with a bight, then the tail inserted through the bight.

And another picture would be appreciated to help.

SS
Title: Re: "Crochet hitch"
Post by: dfred on September 17, 2011, 05:02:04 PM
Yes, it is a bit difficult to tell from the picture...

But given the name and his description, I'm thinking it is likely related to #1827 which Ashley called the "Chain Slipknot".  Basically it is a simple elaboration of the halter hitch made by adding additional slipped loops in the manner of of a chain sinnet.  This may be the reason it is being called a "crochet hitch" here, though it appears from the picture the sinnet is being made around the standing part at each step, like a Swedish furling (e.g. #2100).

Here's a photo of #1827:

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fd/Pferdeanbindeknoten_.jpg/400px-Pferdeanbindeknoten_.jpg)
By Markus B?rlocher [Public domain], via Wikimedia Commons

You can find the original of the above image at:

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Pferdeanbindeknoten_.jpg

You might try forwarding this link to your correspondent and see if he can confirm/deny that's similar to the knot he's describing.

EDIT:   I now notice that the surmised sinnet appears to be made around the standing part, so it's perhaps only related to #1827 rather than identical to it...  Modified post to reflect that.
Title: Re: "Crochet hitch"
Post by: Andy on September 18, 2011, 12:22:11 AM
Good morning gentlemen,

It's a pleasure to hear your voices again, and the product of your learned speculations. :)

Thank you very much for taking a stab at it. I have shared the thread with my correspondent, and asked him if he would kindly contribute a few additional photographs.
(What, you mean that the mentions of sailing in Canada and the sight of a pile of rope are not enough clues to immediately deduce the age of the captain? This is not the Sherlock Holmes forum?)

I will report back when new information arrives, whenever that may be, hopefully soon.

Wishing you all a beautiful weekend,

-Andy
Title: Re: "Crochet hitch"
Post by: Dan_Lehman on September 18, 2011, 06:09:32 AM
I can't discern the knot from the OP's photo,
but it doesn't seem to be gaining much over
tying 2 half-hitches in the bight.  I'd think
that the need for another photo would've been
obvious (but I've found myself --as photographer--
having left the same need after clicking the shutter!).

Thanks,
--dl*
====
Title: Re: "Crochet hitch"
Post by: squarerigger on September 21, 2011, 03:39:29 AM
Hi Andy,

It looks to me like a clove hitch tied with a bight passed around the cleat (which cleat looks like a bent piece of rebar) leaving one end on the dock and the other end to take all the load.  Slipping the 'free' end up through the final bight is probably (although I have no testing to tell if this is the case or not) unnecessary.

SR
Title: Re: "Crochet hitch"
Post by: DDK on September 21, 2011, 02:33:47 PM
The resolution is somewhat lacking (232 X 174 pixel, 24 kB) and the working end sub-optimally placed to make this an easy I.D.

DDK
Title: Re: "Crochet hitch"
Post by: xarax on September 21, 2011, 08:57:04 PM
   @ sqarerigger
   Suppose you also " find the need to tie a line around a piling or through a ring without having access to the bitter end of the line."
What knot would you use ?
   I am asking it because, when I use a knot tied on the dock and not on board, this is always a bowline. I do not know which is the best solution, if we suppose we do not have access to any end of the mooring line.
Title: Re: "Crochet hitch"
Post by: Andy on September 21, 2011, 10:02:13 PM
Hi Dan, SR, hi DDK, hi Xarax!

Thank you all very much for sharing your thoughts.

Quote
I have shared the thread with my correspondent, and asked him if he would kindly contribute a few additional photographs. I will report back when new information arrives, whenever that may be, hopefully soon.

He hasn't replied yet. I will try him again.

Wishing you all a beautiful day,

-A

Title: Re: "Crochet hitch"
Post by: squarerigger on September 22, 2011, 06:05:35 AM
Hi xarax,

I think that any secure knot would do, if it can be readily formed with a bight instead of an end - might use up a lot of line but I think it would serve the purpose.  Some suggestions from me would be:

Buntline hitch
Round turn and 2 half hitches
Highwayman's hitch (depends on rope Vs ring sizes)

Having stuck my neck out, let me ask - what would you suggest or recommend?  I'm interested to hear others' suggestions and recommendations also.

SR
Title: Re: "Crochet hitch"
Post by: xarax on September 22, 2011, 11:54:33 AM
    There are two problems here :
    1. If we first make a bight, and using this bight we tie any double-line hitch around the ring, we consume a !@#$%^&*() amount of line ! This does not seem to me a clever way to solve this problem, but we might well conclude, at the end of the day, that there is no safer alternative...I have tried many double line hitches, and among them my beloved one, the "buntline extinguisher"- which may be viewed as a constrictor tied around the standing part (1). Safe, neat, but awfully "expensive" in line consumption!
    2. With a double line hitch, essentially we pretend we do not know or care which one of the two ends is the loaded one. The loaded line is treated just like the unloaded one. This is also not a proper thing to do, if we want a not-so-bulky and more clever solution.
   Please, have a look at one knot that tries to address those two problems. I have tied a double-line sheet-bend-like collar into a bowline nipping loop. The sheet bend is not consuming too much of the rope, and the bowline nipping loop is tied only on the loaded end. Warning : Not tested with high or repetitive loadings. Do not use it as the mooring knot of your newest yacht- at least not yet !

1) http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3133.msg18699#msg18699
Title: Re: "Crochet hitch"
Post by: Sweeney on September 22, 2011, 04:39:15 PM
I would be happy using a draw hitch but not the Highwaymans's Hitch as depicted in most books as it is very unstable. Dan Lehman devised a secure version as I recall (and there is a good version in Clyde Scholes' "The Outdoor Knots Book").

Barry
Title: Re: "Crochet hitch"
Post by: Hrungnir on September 22, 2011, 06:51:19 PM
    1. If we first make a bight, and using this bight we tie any double-line hitch around the ring, we consume a !@#$%^&*() amount of line !
I don't think you are using much rope on the knot you pictured really. Your buntline is using just a little bit more than Two Round Turns and Two Half Hitches, and less than a Double Pile Hitch.

We must also remember that too much rope is the problem here, so rope usage doesn't matter really, unless you are worried your knot might look a little bit messy. ;)


I'm not able to guess the knot in the original post however. He says he finnishes off with a Half Hitch, but the knot doesn't seem bulky enough to be an Anchor Bend...

Title: Re: "Crochet hitch"
Post by: xarax on September 22, 2011, 09:58:07 PM
...unless you are worried your knot might look a little bit messy. ;)

  With a messy mooring knot, you are not only worried, you are also sleepless  :) ...(You have to be able to easily inspect the knot, from time to time, because weather conditions may deteriorate during the night, etc...) I have tied many solutions that seem quite secure, but do not look simple enough to be easily inspected, and this is a disadvantage for a mooring knot. I would nt be happy with a situation looking like the one shown in the original post - but I suspect that it is deliberately tangled that way, to make the puzzle of its identification more interesting !   :)
   The double-line "constrictor-around-the-standing-part" hitch is conceptually simple and easily inspected - because of its symmetry - but consumes more rope than I would like, it is bulky, and looks much uglier than the original single-line knot. The knot presented in reply#11, consumes a little less rope than a double-line bowline, but its security is comparable/analogous, I believe. Its weak point is the sub-optimal utilization of the not-loaded second line, which remains somehow idle, inactive, and does not participate in the knot s nub structure as effectively as it possibly could.
Title: Re: "Crochet hitch"
Post by: Hrungnir on September 22, 2011, 10:50:15 PM
  With a messy mooring knot, you are not only worried, you are also sleepless  :) ...(You have to be able to easily inspect the knot, from time to time, because weather conditions may deteriorate during the night, etc...)
Yes, I agree that in many cases (not only mooring) a knot which is easily inspected is preferred. I feel a simple hitch like the Two Half Hitches is easily inspected when tied with a bight, and is also proven as a popular mooring hitch.

Small changes like passing the bitter end through the bight (as in the original picture) or more roundturns, seems to add more visual complexity than perhaps a bitter-end-hitch would.
Title: Re: "Crochet hitch"
Post by: xarax on September 23, 2011, 12:29:14 AM
   The problem in this case, with the round turn and the two half hitches, is that, when we tie it with a double line , we can dress the knot in many different ways... ( something reminding the many different ways we can dress the common double eight bend ). Which is the one that can be tied more tightly, and be more secure to the particular type of loadings the mooring lines have to withstand ?