International Guild of Knot Tyers Forum

General => Chit Chat => Topic started by: squarerigger on April 08, 2006, 10:17:46 AM

Title: Our Guild Mission
Post by: squarerigger on April 08, 2006, 10:17:46 AM
I have a dilemma and need some help.  There are fifteen pages of knot forum postings on this web-site and not one of them has to do with the other two parts of our Mission.  Here are the three parts of our Mission:

1. To promote the art, craft and science of knotting, its study and practice
2. To undertake research into all aspects of knotting.
3. To establish an authoritative body for consulting purposes.

My bolding there, just to highlight the areas I would like to discuss with you.  We all seem to be able to do some of the first part of our Mission (promote the art and craft) with great alacrity (and sometimes acrimony) and we are quick to jump in with help, so I am thinking that my request will not fall on deaf ears.  What about the science of knotting and the study and practice of that art, craft and science?  Yes, we have had articles referenced by some who point out others' work, but what are we ourselves doing?  I don't hear about that either on the Forum (which is a smattering of the activity going on worldwide, I think) or in KM or in papers submitted to learned Journals by knotters, at least not declared knotters.  Am I looking in the wrong places?  Help me out here.

Then again, what about the research - who, in our organization, is spearheading that effort?  Who is leading the effort and gathering and disseminating the information?  What Universities and colleges of learning are involved actively in that research and where do we get to hear about it?

Do we have an authoritative body yet?  Who is it?  How did they become appointed?  Were you asked to take part?  What have they said and where did they say it?

I am not just asking questions, nor trying just to be a burr under someone's saddle - I am perfectly prepared to lead an effort in some part of our Mission, but I feel that our Mission should not just be words on paper or a web-page if we are not performing the actions stated there.  What are your thoughts?  Do you think we are meeting our Mission?  Do you care, or is this a hobby that you are content to pick up now and then and not worry too much about all that technical stuff?  Not that that is wrong - I would just like to know if there are like-minded souls among our many readers and writers who would like to see some action in other areas of our Mission than talking about which knots are good for what, and whether or not Ashley has a better form or Budworth or Toss.

Please, if you care, reply to this forum or send me a private message or an e-mail.  I will try to respond to all, good and bad.  I will also send this article to KM to see what interest there may be from those who do not read this forum.  Thanks for reading!

Lindsey
Title: Re: Our Guild Mission
Post by: Fairlead on April 08, 2006, 11:02:19 AM
Well put Lindsey - And as your 'Overseas Representative' on the Council, I will take this to the AGM with me and put it to the floor.
In fairness, there have been some efforts in the directions you mention - a 'New Knot' committee was formed at one time, but that I believe is now only a committee of one!  There are currently efforts towards youth education being 'talked about' and I believe will come to fruition following the next meeting at Shrewsbury.  
On the Science front - there were some sterling efforts by our mathematics members to educate the masses via KM, but that met quite a bit of flack from the 'every finger a marlinspike' brigade.
The majority of our members are 'hobbyist' knot tyers and are happy not to 'get involved'  others are professionals who are pressed for 'time'.  Those like yourself who are keen to get stuck in, are often remotely located from any other members who can back them up and help.  And although this Internet is a wonderful communication media - the majority of members either can't,  don't or won't use it. Made apparent by - How many of the people who use this forum are IGKT Members - how many members use the Sunday 'Chat Net' (10 - 12 at most).

Gordon
Title: Re: Our Guild Mission
Post by: nautile on April 08, 2006, 01:34:27 PM


Lindsey, a thousand thank you for initiating this discussion .

IGKT statement of mission will stay so much empty words in the absence of
real implication by a sufficient number of members

The Board seems to act as if it had not realized that we are its customers
and that first objective is getting us to be regular patrons and beyond that :
suppliers rather that "drifted in".

This demand hard continuous work, giving away little "tokens of consideration",
and quite a lot of practical action, help and impulse.

e.g of token: a monthly mail to members with useful tips or a full study
about a knot just as "business" people do.


IGKT is "administrative",mainly "virtual" with few real parts (Forum and KM.)

IGKT is living " on its laurels"content to uphold "the tradition"
in words if not in deeds.

Nothing real !
REAL = something that consolidate the knowledge, preserve it, even enhanced it.

There is WINDOWS and a bit of APPLE/MAC but now they have both to think
about LINUX and all the GPL and the FREEware, often of as high, when not higher, quality.
IGKT is a bit in the same position.

Imagine a moment : IGKT Forum is lost with all hands!
I can very well imagine all of us asking KHWW to take up the flag
and we could even put our money in it rather than in IGKT.

I know that a "high mass" is celebrated here and there, now and then.
I do not believe it is sufficient and that it amount to "pushing and encouraging".




IGKT board should ask themselves why so many active forum about
ropes and knots are existing in a lively manner.
May be some are of a greater use for promoting knots and ropes that Igkt forum or even IGKT itself are.

May be contacting all those other forum and opening for them
"specialized" sections INSIDE IGKT and enticing their members
to make contributions would be a "good survival move", a sensible move knots-rope-wise.

I do not see anything  " real":

- no true " conservation" work about knot lore or expertise,

- no tentative to make some other bodies recognize ( and help make growing )
all the IGKT expertise : police, justice, maritime museum, ethnography, crafts associations...

No 'research' on 'knots and ropes' is sponsored.

No real 'intervention' addressed to ropes makers for their testing and results.

No contacting of UNESCO, ropes makers... to get funding or help in putting up tests.
Imagine the marketting value of a "tests methodology accepted as valid by IGKT" label for roperies!
They could pay it intesting being done for IGKT.

Some documentations could be put on-line by IGKT about " how a valid testing"
must be conducted, how to interpret statistics, how to make "understandable"
highly specialised publications...


I think that a big annual feast hiding a bid void in the interval
is not really "useful work" making for a lasting contribution,
It is the pleasure of a regional fair or a village market only.
That entails great cost for the organisation, the organisers and the participants.


I see as more important and useful that IGKT ,
(as the entity-regrouping-tyers-sufficiently-interested-to-join) ,
would in a steady and  regular world over action:

- get in contact with museums ( maritime, ethnography) , Universities...industrials...Historians...Ships modellers...

- "heavy users " of ropes and knots : fishermen, seamen, rescuers, firefighters,
climbers/cavers of recognized capabilities...
police....forencsics...

- initiate research in public libraries about books on knottings still not widely known,

- sponsoring translation of non-English-language books
( I think one must admit the fact that the actual Esperanto is English in one form or another),

- that projects for research about effect of knots on ropes,
truly professionaly made, are funded and/or "morally" encouraged.

- Launching an effort for "conservation" of knot lore ..( from tools to songs )

-..Putting to good effect Internet to create a "library"
of screened and peers-reviewed or at least commented of writings...

An opportunity to "publish on-line" on IGKT web space should be opened
to willing authors whose writings would of course have to be reviewed
by people trained in knots and publication reviewing.
At least 2 sorts could exist :
"fully endorsed by IGKT" ,
"proposed to the Tyers by IGKT",
even  a third one "controversial personal view worthy of further discussion",
a fourth ? "hosted by IGKT"

- ...Contacting those holding "rights" upon books or photographies or
items of knotting interest to seduce them into giving the rights
to IGKT to put them on-line in an "undownloadable" form ( downloadable for fees if needed be ) :
a sort of Nuremberg Project or Project Runeberg but for "the Knotical Art and Knowledge" :-) .
Putting on-line for a fee ( non downloadable ) a "loan service" of sort  for consulting
online scans of books put in a "virtual IGKT library'....


ACTING and not simply BEING.



I know "la critique est aisée mais l'art est difficile"
( Criticism is easy but Art is difficult)
so I will thank all the 'human beings' behind that 'virtual entity'
for all they are already doing and giving.

For all the shortcomings I am very glad that the Forum exists :
a "waterhole " in the bush  bringing occasions for meetings.



Cheers

Charles

PS :Please put an end to that counting of posts made  on the forum,
replace it by what is "usable information" :

- date of registering,
- date of the last post made
- PLUS date of the last connection.

No notion of judgment or of "marks" being given as in school.


Another point :
each of us without consideration of his/her academic/formal training
possess some "real life practical knowledge and competence" :
a list of "resources available" could be made so that every one know
that so and so is ready to put up personal resources to good use in order to help someone else.

Title: Re: Our Guild Mission
Post by: Fairlead on April 08, 2006, 04:25:35 PM
Charles,
Firstly - are you a member of the IGKT?  I do not see a 'Charles' listed in France.
I don't have a problem with that, but you are talking negative of many things that are in fact positive.  You obviously do not have copies of the IGKT publications entitled 'Knotlore', 'Much a do about Knotting' or Knot Rhymes and Reasons'.  You seem to know nothing of the research (published and unpublished) done by Guild members, some of which is ongoing at this very moment.
The other fact that you must bear in mind is that ALL the IGKT administration is carried out by VOLUNTEERS - who live in the 'real' world and have to earn a living.
That said - much of what you say is valid comment and I will add that to my presentation of Lindsey's opening thread at the AGM next month.

Gordon
Title: Re: Our Guild Mission
Post by: squarerigger on April 08, 2006, 09:48:01 PM
Thank you Gordon and thanks also to Charles,

Gordon, I am especially glad that you will take this message to the Guild in May - I wish that I could be there in person and find a way in which I can put my enthusiasm to work in a more positive manner.  Your support is very important and I value your having offered to take this message forward.  Please also express that my concern is not that our Mission is not being accomplished - it is that I do not "see" it being accomplished.  Perhaps I have missed a vital communication channel?  Charles, you evidently have a number of very heartfelt concerns, and I will write privately to you.  Your message is loud and clear that you are a committed member (of the Pacific Americas Branch) and that you have concerns for our ability as a Guild to uphold our traditions, our purpose and our Mission.  I feel that you are expressing ideas in language that "bursts" on the scene, as if having been held back by an invisible dam?  Thank you for letting us hear your thoughts, although with so many at one time, it may take a while to address everything successfully and we may need to select the greatest concerns first, before moving on to "also-rans".  What would you say are your five greatest concerns, in one sentence each?  Not that your other concerns are not valid - it is just that we make our task of eating the elephant completely if we do so one bite at a time, n'est-ce-pas?

A common language is a great tool for communication, and we all do not have access to a common language, so we are starting off together at a slight disadvantage.  I think that ideas are just that - ideas - as we used to refer to them in the corporate world they are "trial balloons" floated to see if anyone wants to follow them.  If not, they are left behind floating but not yet shot down.  Gordon, what do you suggest we use as a common tool for communication?  Charles, do you have thoughts about that?  I think that establishing a communication device such as a translator or perhaps agreeing to put it in writing by re-quoting, such as we have seen here?  I regularly use Babelfish when trying to communicate with people in other languages, and I have received no complaints yet.  OK, it's not the same as being able to use the language as my native tongue, but it works.

Communication aside, I am very encouraged by the response so far.  I have received private messages and public responses to the Forum posting, so I think that there must be more interest.  Please keep your responses coming, so that we can see and hear the interest and feel the need.  Thank you!

Lindsey

Title: Re: Our Guild Mission
Post by: nautile on April 09, 2006, 07:09:21 PM
Hi Squarerigger !

Five items :

- "specialized" sections in the forum beyond the small talk chit chat


- creation of a collection of writings (screened and  peers-reviewed
or at least commented) or if you will  an e-magazine before committing
to official paper magazine


- contact world over with museums ( maritime, ethnography) ,
Universities...industrials...Historians...Ships modelers..


- research in public libraries world over about books
on knottings still not widely known.


- contact with UNESCO, ropes makers...to get funding and help in putting up tests.

Cheers
Title: Re: Our Guild Mission
Post by: squarerigger on April 09, 2006, 10:07:07 PM
Hi Charles,

Many thanks for the pointers - I agree that we as a Guild should have all the help we can get, paid or unpaid.  Research by volunteers through museums and libraries would be a wonderful way to fulfill some of the need.  The idea of getting a grant for research from a rope company, while appealing, may tend to be one-sided.  The World Bank, UNESCO or another world-based organization I agree would be a good funding source.  Many of the non-profits seek funding in the form of a single large grant producing self-perpetuating funds, the grant being used as the capital to achieve interest income in perpetuity, and I think this is a great favorite.  Prior to obtaining funding it will of course be necessary to set up some kind of request for funding, so an assembly of needed information would be good.  Once the needed information had been identified, then identifying the chunks to be funded would be next, together with some rough timetable.  Once the needed information, funding and schedule had been identified, a series of writers, editors, reviewers and researchers would be needed, followed by a publisher interested in continuing updates.  A natural outcome of the collected knowledge would be the maintenance and updating as necessary by the "authoritative" body, presumably and perhaps preferably from within the Guild, to continue the task as new knots are devised or discovered.  Thanks so much for your thoughts!

Lindsey
Title: Re: Our Guild Mission
Post by: Nigel Harding on April 10, 2006, 01:55:10 AM
Thanks for floating this interesting statement, which I shall be pleased to put to the membership at the AGM next month.
For a long time the Council has been concious of their failure to achieve ALL the aims and objectives of the Guild, largely due to a lack of inspiration as to what should be done, and by whom.
Hopefully the result of this open debate will generate some practical ideas that the Council, working together with the Membership, can develop, encourage, promote, stimulate, grow etc., until that ultimate goal is achieved.

Over the years, the concept of a Technical Journal has been spoken about on many occasions, but that in itself has been a problem. The members of the Council are willing volunteers, however most are not academic in the scientific sense, and most have a limited technical knowledge of knotting. Thus if there were to be a scientific or technical article offered for publication. who would be prepared to acknowledge, authenticate, and validate such a paper on their behalf, - if in fact, anyone should.
I am sure that there are a number of suitably qualified members, but as The Secretary,  am not aware of them. That is not intended as a critism of any member of the Guild, but only of my own failing and lack of knowledge of the abilities, skills and professional standing  of the members.
I look forward to all and any observations. Nigel Harding - Honorary Secretary -  ???.
Title: Re: Our Guild Mission
Post by: squarerigger on April 10, 2006, 07:04:01 AM
Hello Nigel,

First, many thanks for responding on this public forum - a very encouraging response that does not say "the door is closed" nor does it say "you are off your rocker", and that does speak in positives.  I do not consider this a failure of the Council, nor of the Members - this is simply something that has been identified and we need to put the situation right.  You do say, which I appreciate greatly:

1.  You are prepared to offer the subject for discussion at our next AGM - wish I could be there! - maybe I can help by writing out something of the entire ideas set for presentation?
2.  That a Technical Journal has previously been considered, but that there may be some difficulties to overcome,
3.  That we have a skilled and very capable membership of volunteers who are willing to try,
4.  That it is only inspiration that may be needed to find the solution as to how we go about solving the issue of meeting all our objectives,
5.  That practical ideas should not be found wanting in the members of the Council and the general membership as to how such a dilemma may be moved forward from its present sticking place.

Please encourage all who care, to think of a timetable that is reasonable and practical.  We celebrate our 25th anniversary next year - why not make this our 30th anniversary goal for 2012 to meet all objectives of our Mission by making the necessary moves to get things started, to lay down some railway tracks and find an engine with some carriages to put behind it, so that we can get the show on the road, the tracks obviously being the plan from the Council and Members, the engine a person or group of people who are prepared to make the effort happen and the carriages the people who will devote their time in a measured way to achieve certain tasks along the way?  Maybe not a great analogy but I think most will get the idea.

As for technical knowledge of the scientific process, I feel that we likely have that in our membership.  We will need to agree on a workable, practical method of obtaining and disseminating the information, so that it is clear as to purpose and direction with whatever partners we need, be they universities, museums, translators, funding bodies, or whomever.  Please also remember that I am not just advocating a Technical Journal, not just advocating a scientific study of knotting, but I am talking about all parts of our Mission being achieved and then continued.  That does not mean that all Members have to take part, nor does it exclude their taking part.


We can eat the elephant one bite at a time - we just need to know where to start and then dig in!

Thanks again,

Lindsey

Title: Re: Our Guild Mission
Post by: KnotNow! on April 11, 2006, 08:41:23 AM
Hi Lindsey,
 I waited for the ship to stop before stepping onto the dock (to all others; this was a private recomendation by Lindsey to me that I not post while in my cups).
 Now, back on the water: I'll put my oar in and row, but as often happens when I row on one side of the boat it goes in circles so I need the opposing oarsman to help hold a course.
  I am sorry that you feel the IGKT (and therefore IGKT-PAB) is not meeting the mission.  At every public show we demonstate and teach hundreds or even thousands of people.  Medical professionals use knots recommended by IGKT and IGKT-PAB in operating theaters.  Courts are assisted by forensic experts from IGKT and IGKT-PAB (I can only assume all other branches are having similar success).  I write a simple article for KM on an "expedient eye splice in wire" and men who test splices for Lloyds of London or international safety boards respond in KM with hard data from extensive testing.  I post a line about cedar block slings, 'copters and tucked eyes and a flood of OSHA safety standards and accident examination reports are posted.  The arborists have a site, the climbers have a site, the sailors have a site.  Our forums and publications are the distillation of world wide data.
 We teach.  We explore and document research.  We are the authority of record.  People come to us from around the world to learn, to validate and to confirm knotting lore. They get rock solid information.
 Yes, if you intend to eat an elephant you may need to know where to start if you want to be the fastest elephant eater.  But since we are already "chowing down on Dumbo" as it were, I think we have a fine start... and since we intend to eat the whole thing... I'll just keep on chewing.  I really do not see any rapid elephant consumption in the offing.  But by a larger and larger hungry group of fellow knotters we will get it done. Please pass the hot sauce.
 We have a goal.  We just may need to pick up recruitment rate..... if we are in a hurry.
 Please row a bit on your side so we don't circle.  See you on the dock.
Title: Re: Our Guild Mission
Post by: squarerigger on April 11, 2006, 11:29:42 AM
Hi Roy,

Well, I let myself go off all top ropes in my reply to you, which this system does not allow.  So here it is in a nutshell my friend:

Where have we met our Mission?

Yes, we probably do fine teaching (assuming that we have been checked out as being actually knowledgeable, which I sincerely doubt we have been checked out, because we do not publish any standards) but I don't think we are so hot on the other areas.

Show me - show me where we promote the science of knotting;  show me where we promote the study of knotting; show me where we undertake research into all aspects of knotting and show me where we have established an authoritative body for consulting purposes.  By we I do not mean the Royal "We" meaning an individual, but the common "we" meaning the IGKT and all its Branches.  Show me where "we" have actually done these things through promotion of actual examples, or establishment of extant bodies by the Guild.

Show me and I will look at what you say, but I think you are going to come up empty-handed.  I am open to being shown.

Show me, while you are at it, where I said that I feel we are "not meeting the Mission"?  I asked questions, yes, but did I in any part say that we are NOT meeting the Mission?  Inquiring minds need to know, so please tell me and show me where I am wrong.  Thanks for your comment Roy - please DO let me know.  Your silence would speak volumes, but I know you will not be silent because you have carefully put your statement together, knowing the answers.  Please share them with us.

Lindsey
Title: Re: Our Guild Mission
Post by: nautile on April 11, 2006, 09:00:32 PM
"Sans la liberté de blâmer il n'est point d'éloge flatteur"
"Without the freedom to criticize there can be no flattering praise".
Beaumarchais. French philosopher.

I worked under the brainstorming rules of fire ( no censure - no evaluation ) with absolutely no intent
to offend or insult or "spit in the soup".

Sorry if I did!
My mistake alone, bad communication, I was the "sender".

If in order to access the full extent of IGKT labor one have to receive and possess the whole collection of KM
then I will say that is a very  autistic/autarcic/for-your-eyes-only communication.

Even if it is only I that say it,believe me, I was very well trained ( ordinary pupil but top teachers ).
I can do "search" : I am really sorry but  extensive and in depth ( both ) search on the Net did not bring any
reference ( beyond "pro bono" and P.R. good will ) of IGKT's endeavor that I would dare to put in a formal
publication as  bibliography or references.

I did not see any body of standing referring  IGKT expertise or advice in their own domain and using it "in the field"
beyond the "anecdotal".

If I missed so much works that were apparently done then it is IGKT fault and not mine.
All my professional training and all my life experience from professional domain to diving
lead me to consider as "proven true" or rather "not proven false"  that in communication
( sender -data tranfered- receiver just  to make it short and so not exact )
the full onus of making sure that the message is received unadultered and integrally is
falling on the sender only and never/not on the receiver.

If so much work were accomplished and a search cannot unearth it then I conclude it is well hidden.
A new Da Vinci Code ?
Why secret it ?
Put it somewhere it can be readily accessed not only by members but much more so by non-members
if we are not to be an autarcic grouping of individuals.
Communication should be 15% centripetal ( towards members are already "convinced" ) and 85% centrifugal towards the "big outdoors"
where "they" are very ( by a leaps and bounds ) much more numerous that our minority.

So please "weight" the communication not "by ease to do it" but by "population to be contacted".

If I understood correctly some of what was written : everyone stay "home" on their own domain and forum.
Cavers with cavers,ignoring mountaineers staying with mountaineers ( probably arranged by altitude of climbing ?),
both ignoring and being ignored by tree surgeons ( who separated themselves as deciduous-specialized and
conifer-specialized, most certainly just to keep things on keel) and so on ad infinitum.

Well take just a quick glance at what is happening to Koalas and  Pandas with their specialized diet.

Previously, that is before my eyes were opened by comments made here about my silly mistaken point of perspective
I held to the illusion that IGKT was the unique body  with the will and the knowledge to try and federate all that disseminated knowledge.
Sorry about my mistake, but then I am French and there is the Babel effect of a language not really mastered.

For all the interesting " histoire de chasse" / " hunting stories" that we all put on line
( that is popular parlance for anecdotal , wild, un-reviewed, un-controlled say-so versus "established-as-verified-and-for-the-moment-held-as-not-proven-false" by pondered and reviewed ( internal and external please ) consensus  of knowledgeable people and then and only then receiving the "stamp" of an official body taking moral and intellectual responsibility ) I think that the collective "we" is worth very much more.
It is my faith in this collective value that make we " not fully satisfied".

To go on on the elephant metaphor :
No !
We are not eating it yet, far from it.
We have just reports of  spoors and traces , dubbed "fairy tales" by the established opinion.
We have yet to know where it is and how to kill it.
Only after tracking, studying the lay of the land, the ways of the beast and consulting all the hunters
that want to  take a part either "big" or "rather smallish" will we know how/where/when to kill it.
More!  we need to take great care not to try to kill it before knowing how we will cook it
( so consult with the cooks too!) and make venison with it for fear of only losing a good animal providing marvelous meat.
With that venison we can  barter with other tribes, so we have to make sure they are ready for that too.

It seems to me that Squarerigger mind is rather quick and sharp on the subject, not to say well trained
in this sort of assessment and management.

For now we are very much more in need of that sort of competence rather than in need  of an umpteenth  tyer.

" At the limit" as it goes in maths : a non-knotter with well honed capabilities in organisation, logistics and management
is better "tailored" for the task than a "tyer and tyer only insisting only on "pragmatical" knotting.
Sure theory without practical is useless but practical without theory is pretty limited.
Fortunately Squarerigger give ( to my mind at least) all the right "signals" of being that individual  plus a tyer of standing.

If primatology is anything to go by it is at the lowest rung that it can begin.
Then by the by  it will  creeps up and one day  one 'alpha' will adopt it and it will be all over the group overnight.
I am not thinking "lowest" in another measuring scale than "hierarchical" which does not always mean something valid .

Point n'est besoin d'espèrer pour entreprendre, ne de réussir pour persévèrer
No need to hope to undertake something, nor to have success to go on.
( Guillaume de Nassau ?  Guillaume d'Orange ?)

Take care all and may fair seas and favorable winds be yours.

Nautile


Title: Re: Our Guild Mission
Post by: squarerigger on April 12, 2006, 12:17:30 AM
My dear Nautile,

Thank you for your response - it is always a challenge to conduct correspondance in a non-native tongue and I fully appreciate the effort you have made here.  I also appreciate your compliments, but I do believe that there are much greater minds than mine here - we just have to seek them out.  To seek them out we must approach every member, through our official publication, KM, so that we give each a fair shot at giving their feedback and input - no comment, no whining - rather than relying on the web, which is not reviewed, nor does it have any standard other than that imposed by whoever is the writer, and which web writing may be reviled by some members for those reasons or for their own reasons.  We may also find, as Gordon has said, that members do not want to use the web, and so are not able to be reached by that method, no matter how much we may wish that they would.

In my own translation of your excellent French to English I might say

"Point n'est besoin d'espèrer pour entreprendre, ne de réussir pour persévèrer"  We don't just need hope to undertake something, we need to persevere if we are to succeed

Let us hope that we can persevere together!
Bonne chance and thank you for reading...

Lindsey

Title: Re: Our Guild Mission
Post by: knot_tyer on April 12, 2006, 12:48:19 AM
hello all....
....great topic!: "The Mission of the Guild"
....and that will be the topic in IGKT Knot_Chat
on Sunday!!....i hope to see you all there!!....
((Gordon will be there when he's done with the dishes!!  ;D ))
Dan-Alaska
   http://knotical-arts.com/geehaw.jpg
Title: Re: Our Guild Mission
Post by: squarerigger on April 12, 2006, 03:41:11 AM
Thanks Dan,

I am looking forward to reading others' points of view.

Lindsey
Title: Re: Our Guild Mission
Post by: SKellyog on April 12, 2006, 06:31:39 AM
Thanks to squarerigger for bringing this issue into focus.

I am new member of the igkt. There are many areas about which I am a beginner (esp. ornamental and decorative knots).  But I recognized immediately that the message board itself seems perhaps too general (I mean this positively in the sense that differentiation of topics may not be easily accomplished and creating a new topic  may disperse the sense of community we have by logging on to the same thread (chit chat). I would like to suggest that the forum itself create a couple of more theads that could be used as resources.


The first additional thread would be concerned with cataloging knots, i.e., knot identification.  This being the web, all agreed upon knot names would have to either have a clear series of pictures that members or outsiders could refer to, or a link that pointed to the same. Additionally, non-English names should be included with the identification whenever they are known.  And disputed naming would be so noted.

Another thread might be concerned with knot and rope strength and member or contributor experiences using certain knots. Eg. I'm sure the trucker's hitches I've tied are secure, but if someone has a better method for tying off the hitch or experience with a particular type of cordage (that might give way or slacken), I would love to know...

Anyway, I just want to suggest that part of focusing the mission could occur on this site.

Best.
Title: Re: Our Guild Mission
Post by: squarerigger on April 12, 2006, 07:11:51 PM
What a great idea SK!

I especially like the idea about having a part of the site about knots and their strength (particularly scholarly work) and about knot ID in a second part.  How about a third part for decorative knots, so as not to leave them out.  The remaining discussions could go on with Chit Chat.  That would alleviate the look and feel of the site - what do you think, Webmistress?  Could that be done?

Now, while I like the idea of doing that on the web-site, I still think that our Mission needs some clarification and action items at our AGM.  We still need to address this issue from a paper perspective, for the many hundreds of our members who do not use the Internet (I know it's hard to imagine that someone doesn't use it, but there it is!).  We also can gain a much wider perspective by looking carefully at how our Guild is structured to address this kind of issue in the future.  Here is a question for you all:

Can you name our Board Members, officers included (open to all, except of course for our Board members and officers)?  Can you do it without looking in KM?  Do you know what and where our By-Laws are?  Just asking....

Lindsey
Title: Re: Our Guild Mission
Post by: knudeNoggin on April 12, 2006, 08:09:27 PM
Quote
 Medical professionals use knots recommended by IGKT and IGKT-PAB in operating theaters.  Courts are assisted by forensic experts from IGKT and IGKT-PAB (I can only assume all other branches are having similar success).

??!
I must have missed these recommendations for medical knots--where are they?
(Medical knotting I surmise is the practical knotting that has the most scientific treatment,
with publication in peer-reviewed journals & presentations at conferences.  Hmmm,
and it thus should be something Nautile can bring up and compare w/IGKT!)

Courts are assisted by IGKT experts?  Rather, some experts who have assisted courts
are IGKT members.  There is a difference.  Is there any active discussion of the methods
of forensic analysis for knotting?  (Courts have been accused of fostering "junk science",
and one might wonder at what knotting expertise has been seen there.)

The note "I can only assume that all other branches ..." speaks to this:  why can
you "only assume"??  Shouldn't you know? (!!)  How is this an IGKT and not
merely personal involvement, is the point.

Some time ago in the IGKT history there was a debate about establishing some sort
of educational, knot-knowledge certification program; where one would take some
kind of self-study and by-mail (?) examination in order to obtain credentials issued
by the IGKT ("chief knot tyer" or "loose end" maybe  :P ).  But that got as much
opposition as support, and dried up, but for the published record, and maybe more than
a few yet believers in some version of it.
And there was discussion about having a journal, to which a quite nasty (should not
have been published!) note of opposition came from one Richard Hopkins, decrying
advocates of the journal as pompous know-it-alls(!).  --a quite unflattering note.

So, there is quite some further progress to be made to achieve the charter.

*knudeNoggin*
Title: Re: Our Guild Mission
Post by: squarerigger on April 12, 2006, 09:51:11 PM
Hi Knudenoggin,

Great post - thank you!  Having the actual proof is something different than having thought you have the proof!  The fact that some members are asked to give testimony (giving evidence is limited to scientists, law enforcement, expert witnesses, etc., about whom the courts here are very sticky) or have worked and been paid as an expert witness is, I agree, NOT necessarily a function of the IGKT but rather of the individual's own achievements, whilst also a member of the IGKT.

I would like to hear more opinions about the Journal - should it exist, should it be peer-reviewed (in which case how do we measure who are the peers?) and what should be the circulation?

As for the whole question of certification - that is in itself a can of worms, because we need then to know at least the following:
Who are the judges
What are their qualifications for judging?
Is this renewable or a lifetime decoration
In what areas of knotting speciality are the individuals judged
How many areas are there
Is there a fee involved
Is this worldwide
Are there age limits

The questions just keep coming and that I feel is a question for a whole different posting.  I am particularly glad that you are showing an interest in the Mission post and please keep the questions and comments coming in so that we have more material for the discussion in May at the AGM and possibly beyond.

Lindsey

Title: Re: Our Guild Mission
Post by: squarerigger on April 12, 2006, 09:56:58 PM
This message is to SKellyog and all who may want to answer the question of Board members' names, which question I posted in my reply:

PLEASE DO NOT post individuals names on this web-site (this is a very public forum and we should absolutely respect their privacy) but do enjoy yourself trying to find the information.  Let me know in private - only I will see it I promise! ;D

Thank you for your cooperation

Lindsey
Title: Re: Our Guild Mission
Post by: squarerigger on April 13, 2006, 12:58:10 AM
Hi one last time today Knudenoggin and then I'll be quiet until tomorrow,

Here is what you said at the end of your post:

So, there is quite some further progress to be made to achieve the charter.

In your post you addressed somewhat the idea of the scientific study of knotting.  What I did not see was a mention of the ways in which actual research could be undertaken or achieved by the IGKT - do you have some thoughts about that?  Should a separate Worldwide Scientific Branch be set up, seeking its own funding?  Should a University or Museum be approached in one or several countries?  Just how could this happen?

Also, do you have some thoughts about how an authoritative body could be established for consulting purposes - or should it be?  Would this body again be a separate Consulting Branch or would it be some separate body of people who are members but who only do that work or what?  We have 1100 members worldwide (maybe more or less) so there is quite a pool to pick from!

You are obviously a committed reader and writer to this forum and to your own, so how about it?  Could you share with us?

Lindsey

Title: Re: Our Guild Mission
Post by: Dan_Lehman on April 13, 2006, 03:09:05 AM
Quote
...There are many areas about which I am a beginner (esp. ornamental and decorative knots).
But I recognized immediately that the message board itself seems perhaps too general ...
I would like to suggest that the forum itself create a couple of more theads that could be used as resources.

I think that what you mean is that the the current category Chit Chat should
be replaced with a couple (Decorative / Practical ?) more constrainted topics?
This could have the effect of giving a feel of denser information within each
such division (vs. being all in one pot).

Quote
The first additional thread would be concerned with cataloging knots, i.e., knot identification.
I'm surprised that to date I'm the first to point out that such a thread exists (though
now pushed beyond the latest page of threads, with accumulation of others).
It's a good, but tough issue.

Quote
Another thread might be concerned with knot and rope strength and member or contributor experiences using certain knots.
Here, too, is something I think is worth pursuing, at least to get a better understanding
of the limits of prediction for practical purposes (something to consider in setting
"safety factors").

Quote
Should a separate Worldwide Scientific Branch be set up, seeking its own funding?  Should a University or Museum be approached in one or several countries?  Just how could this happen?
Good questions.
Re the cataloguing & identification, it might be simplest that interested contributers
just post to an on-going Forum thread, with some kind of maintenance of a more
formal/organized set of files undertaken in the background (updates issued as
appropriate ...).  E.g., someone could take some publication (book, article), and report
the names/identification of knots given in it, and these would be recorded for the
particular knots as we specify them in some master file.
(One should beware that, as specification in documents is often ambiguous to what
detail we should find necessary, that many citations from books/etc. would be attached
to a few such knots as we define them.
So, after some period of seeking & recording, an entry for some particular knot could
have a series of sightings recorded for it.  I suppose it would be equally helpful
to have for each knot-name its set of referents (to see to what, e.g., "fisherman's
bend" has been applied--expected & unexpectetd).

From this, the IGKT Wise Ones might attempt to make some judgements, or perhaps
better, recommendations, about correct/desireable vs. wrong/undesireable
identification.  (A real case:  advise those in the arborist community to change from
calling the Scaffold knot (& like) a "Single Fisherman's Knot", given the denotation
of the latter name throughout history & other application areas.)

Such a compilation and periodic document (i.e., some set of recommendations
or at least citations of problems) should be of use to the knot tyers from various
application areas, who IMO typically lack a broad awareness of knots (and hence
can look at the Dbl. Fisherman's Knot and figure that the use of one Dble.Overhand
component in noose form to hitch to a device should be "Single Fish.", ignorant
of the conflict).
 
Quote
... how an authoritative body could be established for consulting purposes - or should it be?  Would this body again be a separate Consulting Branch or would it be some separate body of people who are members but who only do that work or what?
Let me suggest that re this aspect the IGKT might not be the right sort of entity
for engaging in any normal consultation?  --issues of corporate governance
and liability?

Quote
We have 1100 members worldwide (maybe more or less) so there is quite a pool to pick from!
It's a question of quality, not quantity (though 1100 is not a big sample).  Who of
various application areas who are evidently active knots people are IGKT members?

--dl*
====
Title: Re: Our Guild Mission
Post by: squarerigger on April 13, 2006, 08:46:56 AM
Hi Dan,

Welcome to the discussion!  It is always encouraging to see people who are respected on any post, especially when it is not about knots, per se but about the way in which our organization perceives its own actions.

Let's see - you are probably right that such a thread exists, but SKellyog was suggesting that whole new areas of the forum (other chat areas) be generated for discussions of what I referred to as the three types - viz.:  general chat and then (1) scientific concerns having to do with strength (not specific as to type of strength), durability, type of cord, effects of contaminants including twists and hockles (otherwise and also known as kinks) etc., etc., (2) usefulness and application of knots of one type or another (is the bowline really best at what it is used to do, is the overhand knot really worthwhile being disregarded or are there some places it excels, etc., etc.) and then a third area titled decorative knots, so that we could bring together the people who have those interests in each area instead of doing what you have identified as being a common problem (although you didn't say as much) that it is perhaps difficult to find the thread you want to join in with.  It would seem to me that this would warrant another chat area - a total of six, including the present three, not just another thread (which might get lost) within the chit chat area.

Your sense of how the cataloguing and identification would go - do you have a specific set of knotbooks (or rigging books or sailing books or safety books or camping books, etc.) in mind or do you think we should start arbitrarily with ABOK for instance, or should we somehow use a list derived by the "committee"?  Organization IS important, as is definition, but we also need to be able to retrieve the information - I would really appreciate your putting together a suggested organization.

You may be right that the IGKT is not sufficiently separate from the "authority" to be impartial.  I think that a separate body of people would be better (so they would have to be paid, of course) than volunteers, and they would need to be given a very defined set of definitions and instructions (all put together first by the IGKT or a separate committee) and then given a scheduled time by which the work is to be complete.  A difficult and very long-term project.  How about a quicker win for the team?  Get a group of IGKT members to put together a suggested method for consulting and then get Requests for Proposals (RFPs) out to interested parties?  Perhaps a university group of anthropology Master's students might find this interesting?

Lastly, your point about the 1100 members is somewhat on target and somewhat off.  You suggest that it is a question of quality.  I think that, for people to firstly admit themselves interested in knots, and then to pay for that privilege year after year, speaks of quality.  There are varying degrees of ability among those people, but they are all of quality.  I spoke of quantiity because the simple numbers of such a self-picked group entitle a person to think that these are people with an already dedicated, interested knowledge area, and they will have a real commitment to see this succeed.  Float an idea first, before we deny it from view.  If it dies, it can be put aside for the time being.  If it lives on, it was worth it.

When this Guild was first suggested nearly 25 years ago, it was not idly set up as a hobbyist group, and some lofty goals were set into the Mission Statement.  In countries around the world, the dedication to the art, craft and science is amazing, from what little I have seen (I've only been here for 9 years now, and I am just getting started).  So let's give ourselves a shot in the arm and really build for the future of our craft among young people and among the people who now hold the best way of getting it started on the next 25 years - our existing members!

Thank you Dan - you are very valuable in bringing some sensible ideas and valid comments to this discussion!

Lindsey
Title: Re: Our Guild Mission
Post by: KC on April 13, 2006, 04:05:15 PM
All good ideas; i'd like to see lots of strides made in understanding knot tying mechanics of strength and security; as well as rope power increases by inline/ pulley pulls and non-inline/leveraged line sweating a'la Toss.

Thanx Squarerigger for bringing this forward, and Dan L. too, as well as that  knudeNoggin person!
Title: Re: Our Guild Mission
Post by: squarerigger on April 14, 2006, 04:32:31 AM
Thanks for your posting KC,

Knot-tying mechanics eh?  I guess that is a long way from auto mechanics, isn't it?  Pardon my levity - just cannot resist sometimes ...  These items definitely would come into that part of the science of knotting, its study and practice.  It could also be part of the research into all aspects of knotting, so it seems like we must be on the right track already, if you are a member and have a need for this information.

I have a question for you - if you were the IGKT person responsible for answering this question, where would you start?  Would you want to be able to give answers right now or be prepared to wait, while an answer was sought by your action committee?  What would you expect if you were the person who asked this question?  Would you want them (IGKT) to give you an answer that is correct, based on a rough guess from experience or would you want something worked out like an engineer might do?  Rigging 101 or Rigging 601?

Would you want to be able to turn to a recommended book?  A recommended person or corporation?  Would you want to be able to take some training, however that might be offered (in class, by internet, mailings, etc.), or do you want a quick and dirty answer?  Is this (IGKT) really the right forum for your question?  How secure would you feel in the answer?

Your question is very good at raising issues that are definitely germane to our current discussion.  Our very existence is something that we need to exercise some care with, so as not to expose our Members to unreasonable expectations or risks.  Thanks again, and please do let us know what your thoughts are to the areas discussed above.

Lindsey
Title: Re: Our Guild Mission
Post by: DerekSmith on April 14, 2006, 05:14:57 PM
Squarerigger and Nautile,

Rarely have I read such clarity of perception and structured determination to promote a worthy topic out beyond the closed ranks of the converted.  Bravo gentlemen, I support your innitiative and offer my direct support.

I am a 'hobby knotter' (there is not much call for knots in the laboratory) and am not at present a member of the IGKT.  When I first came across the IGKT website, I was not unduly impressed, nor convinced that the Guild had much for me.  I hung around the forum, but, because of its failure to include images, again I learned little from the discussions between skilled knotters who's descriptions frequently went way over my head.

And then came this post.  Yes, to those within the IGKT all may seem on track, but to an outsider, there is virtually no attraction to join in.  The site and its content are not 'sticky' and there is virtually nothing to attract newbies into the hobby.  It was good to read that the Mission of the IGKT actually encompasses the aspects I intrinsically feel that it should include.

So, in an attempt to start to turn desire into reality I have started a Wiki which will allow anyone to contribute to any of the mission objectives in a flexible and unfettered manner.

To all:-

To view the Wiki, go to http://igkt.pbwiki.com you can read any of the content already entered as a starting point.  If you would like to then add or edit content yourselves, simply log in.  Enter your name, email address and the password which is igkt

Give it a try and let me know if you think this is a tool which can be used to promote the Guild Mission.

Any questions just drop me an email

Derek Smith
Title: Re: Our Guild Mission
Post by: squarerigger on April 14, 2006, 10:21:26 PM
Hello Derek,

Thanks so much for your comments.  I see that you have also responded to some other posts and that you have set up a Wiki page that is arranged so as to gather and disseminate information about knots.  Your commitment to the Wiki system is to be applauded.  I also encourage fellow knotters to examine the Wiki system for themselves and ask how this may help them in their own search for valid information.  I feel that, at ANY time that you are looking at a system on ANY web-based information (including this site), you should check for supporting or corroborating information, else that system or that information must be treated with a little caution - not that it is necessarily wrong or suspect, but that information, wherever it derives, must always be accorded the authenticity of its author(s), with sufficient basis for acceptance.  You all have likely heard the adage "I found it on the web, so it must be true"?  That adage applies to any system of information, so please use good judgment.

Derek, you have set up a very interesting place where people can enjoy themselves by posting their information in, as you say, an unfettered manner.  I am looking forward to seeing what people post there!

Looking at the Long Ashley Bend, as you call it, #1452 in ABOK, from your puzzles on the Wiki page, it is not only different in appearance than #1452, it has been tied such that the tucked ends (or what should be tucked ends) appear to be the standing parts tucked - at least that is what I have seen when I tried to recreate the knot shown on your Wiki page and then untied it to remove the ends.  My description requires more explanation - why don't you ask others for their explanation here on another thread?  You are sure to get some interesting replies.

Thanks again Derek - I wish you joy of your efforts and I shall watch with interest.

Lindsey
Title: Re: Our Guild Mission
Post by: DerekSmith on April 14, 2006, 11:11:13 PM
Hi Lindsey,

Thanks for the comments, I hope others find the Wiki to be useful, particularly the facility to upload pictures for discussion.

Re the puzzling dressing of Ashley #1452, I will create a new post as you suggest and upload images of its dressing to the Wiki.
Title: Re: Our Guild Mission
Post by: KC on April 14, 2006, 11:49:58 PM
Fantastic!  i have a small sight, that Dan and KnudeKnoggin have helped on.  It is mainly for tree worx; but that encompasses biology, knots, rigging and yes mechanics.

Here are a few Lynx, table of contents at bottom of each page:



Knot Links Page (http://www.mytreelessons.com/Pages/Knots_Links.htm)

Bowline to SheetBend Commonalities/Mechanics Comparisons (http://www.mytreelessons.com/images/Bowline%20to%20SheetBend.JPG)


Tree Climber's Friction Hitch Commonalities/ Mechanics comparisons (http://www.mytreelessons.com/Flash/Friction%20Hitch%20Comparison.htm)

2HandingPower (http://www.mytreelessons.com/Flash/2handing.swf)




And, yes i believe that knot mechanics is appropriate; and am glad that somehow we here have settled together at this time; perhaps to allow the IGKT to give more leadership in these things.

i think that if you make a 180 degree bend around a pulley and anchor 1 end, while pulling on the other; you get 2x effort - friction at the said bend.  Inside a knot, i think the same mechanics are relative.  So in studying strung rigging, we can have a microscopic view of what happensi inside the tiny microcosm of a knot!  For, they are powered by the same forces, even use the same materials of ropes and bends.  i think that only inline/linear with no friction or impact gives same force; but a bend of any kind takes a longer route to do the same work; so alters the amount of distance to carry the same load; and voila we have leveraged forces.  Just like a lever takes a longer route of input motion, than the output motion to give more power.  For only force can overcome distance; so anytime the distance is not inline and altered on one sode of the balanced formulae of equals and opposites, thereby; commands that force be altered on the opposite side of the balance!

Orrrrrrrrr something like that!
:o
P. S. Luv that this site allows Flash animations; many don't!
Title: Re: Our Guild Mission
Post by: Willeke on April 15, 2006, 12:00:42 AM
For those of you who wonder what that 2handing power thing is (like I did), click on the click point and you see moving pictures.
If you do not, maybe you need to allow pop-ups for this site.

Thanks for sharing KC.

Willeke
Title: Re: Our Guild Mission
Post by: squarerigger on April 15, 2006, 12:41:58 AM
Excellent KC!

This is exactly the kind of thing that should be in an area of its own on our web-page - how about it Mel?

Lindsey
Title: Re: Our Guild Mission
Post by: KC on April 15, 2006, 12:57:38 AM
Thanx; i sent this to you in a PM earlier; it is an application from a book, that i dug up to prove / show the theory, but have met much opposition on elsewhere's anyway.  

From "The Marlinspike Sailor" of the great knot author Hervey Garret Smith (http://www.mytreelessons.com/Marlinspike_%20Sailor_Rig.htm); a ship's use of this prinicipal i thought you'd like.

i've always been the little guy; and have pulled many a bigger man over with this principal ever since a teen; shen force applied like below.  There'd be a sudden stop of their laughter as i switched from the strategy in the top of the picture, to the strategy in the bottom of the picture; though you use the same amount of effort!    More power available by pulley on anchor, not load here; seems to be a brain teaser causing disbelief!

(http://www.mytreelessons.com/images/Anchored%20Leverage.GIF)
Title: Re: Our Guild Mission
Post by: squarerigger on April 15, 2006, 01:26:10 AM
Thanks again KC,

Of course, as an engineer, I would say that the effort expended is greater, to achieve the apparently greater pull, based on the principle that energy is neither created nor destroyed.  However, your point is well taken - thank you!

Lindsey
PS - If anyone has a different point of view, or would like to discuss this further, what about starting a new thread?
Title: Re: Our Guild Mission
Post by: Dan_Lehman on April 15, 2006, 07:06:47 AM
Quote
Your sense of how the cataloguing and identification would go - do you have a specific set of knotbooks (or rigging books or sailing books or safety books or camping books, etc.) in mind or do you think we should start arbitrarily with ABOK for instance, or should we somehow use a list derived by the "committee"?  Organization IS important, as is definition, but we also need to be able to retrieve the information

This touches back to the prior thread, where I gummed up the works with issue
of (even) What IS a "knot"?--which seems the foundation on which to build.
But for getting off the ground (which process can help show up issues needing
resolution, to find actual paradigm problems / case studies, so to speak),
one might begin with some Annotated & Extended Ashley:
"crunch" all in-hand documents (books, WWWeb pages, ...) to extract the names
that are given to Ashley's set (and the Extended superset) of knots.
Products would be a set of knots each with a list of citations for names attached
to it;
and a set of knot names, each with a list of knots (& referenced sources) so noted.
(E.g., the Scaffold Knot's list would cite works that named it "Fisherman's Knot",
and under "Fisherman's Knot" there'd be a citation for the Scaffold.)

And pretty soon, it should be perspicuous that knot naming is mass confusion!
(And knot users cross various application fields, where such confusion is quite
detrimental.)

Quote
You may be right that the IGKT is not sufficiently separate from the "authority" to be impartial.  I think that a separate body of people would be better (so they would have to be paid, of course)

I'm lost as to what this reply attaches?  (My only thought re IGKT appropriateness
was in terms of liability concerns for much consultation.  I see no problem
with the quite factual compilation of aspects of knots literature, or even of any
recommended nomenclature that might derive from that analysis.)

Quote
Get a group of IGKT members to put together a suggested method for consulting and then get Requests for Proposals (RFPs) out to interested parties?  Perhaps a university group of anthropology Master's students might find this interesting?

Anthropolgy?
I've mused about perhaps helping to define knots-testing projects such as are
occasionally conducted in university settings.  Such help could be to broaden the
literature the tester is familiar with, and to provide some better set of knots (where
this might be some knots whose differences are slight & focused and thus maybe
better at highlighting some aspect, than knots more broadly different).

continued ...
[POST CHOPPED FOR SIZE (DARN!)]
Title: Re: Our Guild Mission
Post by: Dan_Lehman on April 15, 2006, 07:10:53 AM
Quote
I think that, for people to firstly admit themselves interested in knots, and then to pay for that privilege year after year, speaks of quality.

A couple years ago there appeared in KM a somewhat favorable review of one
of the worst knot books I've come across--Derrick Lewis's Great Knots and How
to Tie Them
.  I think of the IGKT (obviously not the reviewer!), I was alone
in objecting to this review, even though I appealed to several fellow members to
join in the condemnation of the book.  The IGKT's KM is the LAST place one should
find the sort of rubbish that pops up (one might be suspicious!) on Amazon.com,
where at least a couple members entered sharply critical reviews to counter the
nonsense ones (by "Top 100/500 Reviewer"s).  That speaks of "quality" only in
the sense of poor quallity--very poor.
FYI:
Quote

Negligence or Deceit?! [this refers to Top Reviewers!] , March 31, 2005
Reviewer: Dan Lehman (Falls Church, Virginia United States)

I cannot stand to let any positive review of this book (even one
implying some acceptability of it) risk influencing a potential
reader: this supposed book on knots is beyond the pale bad!
One reviewer remarks that the book shows "a few knots that you
probably will not use (Hangman's Noose...)", and this helps show
one (of many) egregious flaws: the photo of the supposed Hangman's
Noose is in fact of a simply coiled hank of rope--you know, with
multiple loops at each end, and a couple lines that suspend this
hank running up out of the picture. In short, it's nothing at all
like the alleged knot! That is the nature of this terrible book.
How can anyone giving even cursory review of it not see this at
once? --(gross) negligence, or deceit!

KM also carried my objection to its review & the book, to be fair.
Against this, you see, comes a strong desire for translating what CLDay called
perhaps the best knots book, Om Knutar, 2nd ed. 1916--something
all who aspire to knots understanding should have the benefit of reading.  It
would be well worth the effort; we do have Swedish members.  (I don't know
how well e.g. Sten Johansson might feel about spearheading such an effort,
though he provided a bit of it in one or a couple articles in KM?)  It would
be worth vastly more than yet one more book in the bargain bin full of color photos
of knots often in most UNtypical cordage & settings--pretty for publishers' sake.

Quote
In countries around the world, the dedication to the art, craft and science is amazing, from what little I have seen

What, re science of knotting, have you seen to amaze you?

One thing that might help knot testers would be a resource that presented knots
in different orienations/settings, which could be referred to by testers.  A common
case of ambiguity I point out is for trace knots (e.g. Fig.8 loopknot) where
one has a choice of ends to load (unlike for a Bwl)--test data usually gives no  hint
of which choice was made.  The Net (e-mail/WWWeb) is a powerful resource for those
wanting to collaborate.  "Special Interest Groups" is a form of association used by
some professional groups to focus efforts.  There might be something there for us
to build on.

Quote
I was not unduly impressed, nor convinced that the Guild had much for me.

I've thought about making express invitation to those practitioners of knotting in
various fields such as rockclimbing, caving, SAR, arborism(?), ... , but came to believe
that they'd have just such an opinion of IGKT literature (and, egads yes, what have
*I* done about that--touche'!).
Yet I continue to believe that there is some big step that can & should be taken,
to move knotting beyond the historical nonsense parroting of those who have or
affect typically maritime/nautical connections, to a higher level of understanding
and awareness.
(E.g., after Jimbo's slight of the Granny for shoelaces, I've been tying my shoes
. . . with the Granny!  "untied" ?  --not!  And I learned a bit in so doing--Granny ends
need to run opposite to Reef ends, which is awkward for tying; but it holds
(one should note, precisely this is a Doubly Slipped Granny, and the extra material
in the knot matters, methinks).)

--dl*
====
Title: Re: Our Guild Mission
Post by: squarerigger on April 15, 2006, 10:06:02 AM
Hi Dan,

First, let me say that I am beginning to get the hang of these tag-tools on the bars at the top of the box - watch out now!  Your posts inspired me to look, so please don't think I am just trying to look good - I'm trying to get the message across more clearly.  Let's see:

Dan, you have many points that need airing and that also need better responses than I can give.  I would like to think that I have all the answers, but I do not.  I wish I could wrest the sought improvement from your obviously keen mind - could you come up with some more specific suggestions as to how this will work?  You did make some good suggestions...

You suggested:

Quote
Yet I continue to believe that there is some big step that can & should be taken,
to move knotting beyond the historical nonsense parroting of those who have or
affect typically maritime/nautical connections, to a higher level of understanding
and awareness.
[/color]

OK - let's look at what that might encompass.  Do you have a specific idea as to how one might improve the basis that this entails?  You appear to suggest that the majority of knot books are crap, because they parrott what has gone before without thinking and that color photos are put in to sell books.  I am not wealthy enough to publish books under my own name as a publisher and hope to have it sell, thereby rewarding myself for the effort involved, even if I am parrotting (which I do not think I am).  Therefore I need to follow to a certain extent what the publisher wants to have, because they are taking the financial risk.  So, in my search for the Holy Grail, what is it that such a publication would include to promote "a higher level of understanding" such as you suggest, presumably meaning higher understanding on the part of the knot-book author?

Then you suggest:

Quote
One thing that might help knot testers would be a resource that presented knots
in different orientations/settings, which could be referred to by testers.  ....

"Special Interest Groups" [SIGs] is a form of association used by
some professional groups to focus efforts.  There might be something there for us
to build on.
[/color]

I agree that SIGs would be good and that such a resource would be good to have, if a little limited in scope to what is thought worthy by the compilers of such a reference.

Now, I am going to do just what you have suggested is a really bad thing - I am going to ask our readers to focus on just those two ideas for now - I feel sure that others will come up.  Based on those two ideas only, that small quantity, what do our readers think?

First: Could SIGs work?  How would the reference work be compiled, who would compile it and how would it be paid for?  Is this a worthwhile resource?

Second: What is the big step that could be taken to prevent or improve the parrotting?  How could quality be improved?  Is that really necessary or will individuals find their own value - after all they have a brain and can pick out what they like and do not like or that they think works or does not work.

Just focussing on those two ideas, could anyone suggest some real-time solutions?

Thanks again for your input Dan - you have very valuable questions that cause us all to think.

Lindsey
Title: Re: Our Guild Mission
Post by: DerekSmith on April 16, 2006, 08:03:19 PM
Hi Lindsey,

Yes I believe that SIGs can work.  They require a champion, a goal, a team of 'activists' and a means to meet/share work, ideas, results, review and conclusion.

I can't provide the first three, but I have added a SIG section to the Wiki and popped a couple of possible SIG goals in there so the place is not quite so empty and foreboding (very few people like an empty sheet).

You can get to the SIG home page from the Menu sidebar through this link  http://igkt.pbwiki.com

If your rationalisation was Step 1
and the provision of the Wiki SIGs section was Step 2 in this long journey, then possibly Step 3 would be to see if readers have ideas for topics they would like to see set up as SIGs.

Derek
Title: Re: Our Guild Mission
Post by: KC on April 16, 2006, 10:04:05 PM
i think that the field specialists should come in.  The mechanics of knotting betwixt the seperate fields be examined.  Then, the 'binding' elements of this mechanics be distilled out.  Then, this place would be the holding of the comprehensive overview; of the continuity of these mechanics in their simplest and evolved forms.

At least that is what i looked for here, a few times over the years as i stopped in.  i was looking for the elemeants of working knots; to progress my own understandings, and found mostly discussions on a few ornamental knots and meetings.  Not that there is anything wrong with that; jsut not the comprehensive view i suspected; from what i'd thoght would be the world's leading authority on knots!

Derek, once again i think the Wiki is great; i have more than a few things on knots and pulleys i've maid; just kinda wondering what fits etc.  There is a link in my signature to a page on my web sight for knot links, and index at base of each page; if anyone wants to take a look and give guidance on what fits here or there.  Dan has sent me great hand drawn knots through email and snail mail over the years.

(http://www.mytreelessons.com/Easter/rabbit_painting_happy_easter_lg_clr.gif)
Title: Re: Our Guild Mission
Post by: squarerigger on April 17, 2006, 04:24:32 AM
Thanks Derek!

I'll continue to watch and see what happens.  You have sung the praises of Wiki very fully, so for now I'll wait to see who else signs in.  Thank you

Lindsey
Title: Re: Our Guild Mission
Post by: DerekSmith on April 17, 2006, 10:09:53 AM
Point made Lindsey,

I'll give the voice a rest.

Derek
Title: Re: Our Guild Mission
Post by: Jimbo on April 17, 2006, 09:33:12 PM
Quote
Here are the three parts of our Mission:

1. To promote the art, craft and science of knotting, its study and practice
2. To undertake research into all aspects of knotting.
3. To establish an authoritative body for consulting purposes.


Hail and howdy, fellow kinkers of cordage!

OTOH (On The One Hand), This IS the "Great Work" which the world wants the IGKT to produce.

OTOH (On The Other Hand), I'm but one of many who has piped up with suggestions, etc. toward this very end, which inevitably die "in committee", as it were, when the threads either get hijacked by some spammer, poisoned by a petty squabble, diverted by a stray unfocused reply, or otherwise snubbed before any progress can be made.

This is all Good, as a "false start" is still a "start", just lacking a "go".  Maybe SquareRigger has the "go" this time...

Meanwhile, scientists, engineers and "computer people" have figured out the analysis process pretty well over the decades, as analysis to us is like knotting to sailors: it's an inscrutable, seemingly-small part of the job, but a part without which the job itself would not exist.

The "analysis methodologies" used are many and varied, and I won't bore anyone here with that distraction, but using the techniques can still be handy.  One design methodology is called "Bottom-Up Design".

Bottom-Up:  'Define atoms with which to build molecules with which to build chains with which to build ...'

Problem:  Words:
Kinkers of Cordage need a major vocabulary overhaul!!

Examples:
If the lead is melted, a leading rigger, rigging leaders, can lead the lead into the lead.  Take the lead in using more lead for the entire leader's lead.  Did you follow that?  Or shall I lead you through it again?
Hitch up your britches & hitch that wagon to that star, with a hitch.  If the hitching doesn't go without a hitch, you can hitch a ride home.
You can whip with a hitch, or with service, but stopping isn't whipping, serving nor hitching.  Am I stopping this whipping or whipping this stopping?  I started marling, but I'm about to have a seizure, just wrapping this rope with string!
Why do you "bend" to a spar (a horizontal piece of wood) but you "hitch" to a rail (yet another horizontal piece of wood)??
Why do sailors "tie up" at the end of a voyage?  It looks like "mooring" to me!

EEEEK!!  Holy impediment to effective communication, Batman!!  The word "definition" has a specific meaning, so should the words the IGKT uses.  PS: Let's not forget that a huge chunk of our terminology came from a bloodthirsty horde of ignorant, superstitious men with nothing better to do.  And no, I don't mean PABPRES!!! ;) I'm talking about sailors!  Not that tree- and rock-climbers have been any help!

Solution:
Pick one meaning for each word and find new words for all the other "meanings".

(Snipped for YaBBc, Pt. II follows)
Title: Re: Our Guild Mission
Post by: Jimbo on April 17, 2006, 09:37:52 PM
(Part II, YaBBc workaround)
Problem:  Knots:
"What is a knot?  What isn't?  How can I tell?"
Even if we assume a basic level of functionality (e.g. "a clever kink in a cord") in response to these customary (quasi-rhetorical) questions, that's not even a start, if knots are the IGKT's raison-d'etre.  I'm not just punning here, without a definition of what is and is not a knot, how can anyone hope to eliminate the dizzying ambiguity used throughout this field of study??  Without a clear (language-independent) method for determining "knotness", how can IGKT hope to be "International"?

Sub-problem:
Why do some knots have so many names, yet some very good knots have naught but a number in ABoOK?  Specifically, how can I tell you to tie a ______, unless we each have the same reference?  Numbers are OK, if there's a list somewhere with one number per knot, one knot per number (unlike ABOK).  That same list with names might be an impossible dream.  But a Bowline by any (of a half-dozen) other names will still "untie itself" if you don't properly finish tying it.
Sub-solution: break down knots into their atomic (i.e. most fundamental) aspects - turn, bight, strain, nip, cross, tuck, etc. - define those and how to link them together to define the knot(s).

And that leads to a bigger "knot" problem:
The vast array of "almost like" knots (this one is almost like that one, except for this wee twitch in the kinking) leads -- pardon me, "procedes in like fashion" -- to such a scrambled state of nomenclature (names of things within a category) that I personally can't see how (without detailed drawings which are impossible for some of us to render) this subject can be communicated in the first place!  From history (Day, Bowling, Smith, Ashley), it appears it cannot be!  Even CWA introduced errors into the information stream, despite his extreme level of care, interest, and concern!  And that's just on the knots with names!
And that problem has sub-problems too:  The "Sailor's Hitch" and the "Icicle Hitch" don't appear in the "standard reference" ABoOK, but there are useful alternatives, e.g. ABOK#1743, 1760 - 1764, etc.  (If new, named knots come along, how do they get "hallowed" into the "standard reference"?  Also, if old knots get "rediscovered" & subsequently named, how does the "standard reference" get updated?)

Examples:
Why is a "Flying Bowline" called that??  It's cuteness hardly justifies the ambiguity it introduces into what's already an "information-light" world.  I can see where "Angler's Loop" might seem passe' on the docks, but "you can stand in the garage & holler, but that doesn't make you a car."

I'm sorry, as I know this isn't much help.  The answers are the responsibility of the IGKT, as I really don't care what you call them, as long as they come out of my hands when I need them, and I can teach them to the hired help.

IMNERHO (In My Not Even Remotely Humble Opinion), the only valid reference on Knots should be the IGKT.  Not Ashley, not "Mr. Complete" Budworth (though each should get due credit for their contribution(s)), not any of the others, but the Guild itself.  IGKT "needs" (IMO) to "step up" and make this happen.  If not the International Guild of Knot Tyers, then whom?

Nice start, SquareRigger, but you're refreshing tracks laid down by a lot of us.  Good luck and keep going!

Jimbo
Title: Re: Our Guild Mission
Post by: KC on April 17, 2006, 11:11:31 PM
In short; i think it is just a tough problem that will take a number of times of hard headed peoples running into the wall to knock it down.  Perhaps this is the time it will happen, perhaps not; but i hope for no loss of the energy of enthusiasm as it is pointed out to what depth, width and height the wall to overcome is.

Personally i think that knots are so simplistic and commonplace as to be tough, even though the answers lie right before us in examples all around, like other mechanics that we blindly use everyday.  This is not the fault of anyone here, but rather jsut what has been handed down to us over the ages for one of the most elemental, yet seemingly intricate machines known.

i think that knots (at least the working class) should be broken down, not into their uses, but their mechanics.  At least in naming, it is alas a little late for that now, as would only add to the confusion; for would be a total overhaul to what is already known and understood in most cases.

i am a tree climber; i've climbed on both the Icicle and the Sailor's Gripping hitches as friction hitches for ascent and descent.  i've even modified the Sailor's Gripping Hitch to end with a Backhand hitch rather than Half; and think it is great.  Many friction hitches in the DdRT (Doulbed Rope Technique of 2:1 mechanics as opposed to the SRT 1:1 of Singled Rope Technique that you can't descend on friction hitches in) require a hardware 'tender' to serve the hitch upward/ keep slack out of the line on ascent with 1 hand.  These mentioned moslty self tend without the hardware.

i think in the working class, it is all mechanics of these knot machines that do work for us.  That is why i think that knots should be broken down by these mechanics.  i think Ashley tried to serve some towards that end; with chapters broken down by how some knots grab a spar by parallel or perpendicualr use, and that there is a great key to the mysteries in that, by their mechanics.

i think a bowline should be seen as a sheetbend to self to form eye; and how that changes the mechanics to make a bowline safer.  i also think that a clove/ cow is not 2 opposing half hitches, but rather a leading (closest to initiating pull) crossed turn; that then leads to a hitch.  In short all mechanics, and the secrets can't be found until that view is taken.

In short, it is all just a knotty problem; but is no time to give up.  i think rigging is jsut enalrged knots, with the same working forces, with the same linking material.
Title: Re: Our Guild Mission
Post by: squarerigger on April 18, 2006, 04:22:11 AM
Thank you KC and especially thank you Jimbo!

You have brought the knotty issue to a very fine point viz:  what are we talking about, how does it work and why do we care?  I am all-fired transposed about the subject of Mission Statement and where it goes.  Some others obviously care (including the non-web-enabled), and some like just to tie the darn things, never mind the names and mechanics of it.  All views are important and that means that all require attention.  KM has done a fine job for the IGKT in having members' expressions put in print, but where does the rest of it go?  We are in a communication-filled age and it should assuredly not be beyond our capabilities to arrive at a means to include all the reasonable parts that will help to:

a)   Define what we do
b)   Define what it looks like
c)   Define how it works
d)   Name people or groups to deal with things
d)   Tell it like it is, in a language that all can see and understand.

I want to be a part of the answers to this and I think right now that the IGKT is a good place to start finding the answers, with like-minded souls, having a more or less common language, using tools available to all.  We could spend a VERY long time trying to please all, or we could spend a reasonable amount of time trying to do a bang-up job with what we have, in a direction that looks right for now, leaving the door open for future changes.  I vote for the second alternative (there probably are more alternatives, but I have not tried to put them on paper as ideas yet).

How can the IGKT start be brought about?  One way would be to look at the Mission Statement and get some things more clear, like:

1.   How long is this Mission supposed to take?
2.   Have we bitten off more than we can chew?
3.   If not, who is chewing and who is doing?
4.   Have all reasonable parts been included (see above a through d)?
5.   Is there a mechanism for adding something we have yet to see or might want to include later?

I am putting together a Word document to submit to the IGKT at our meeting in UK in May, which submittal I would like to use as the springboard for getting 'er done!  I will be happy to use your information (yes, this includes the information you still want to include but have yet to put on paper or the web-page) or to leave it at the dock for another voyage.  The ship (putting the message together) will be leaving the dock at
1200 GMT on April 30, 2006
so that I can be sure the sailing time is sufficient to get to the Guild for the May meeting.  Want me to add your two cent's worth?  That's the deadline!  Thank you ALL for your contributions.  If you prefer to have your contribution not aired in front of the WWW then send me an IM or private e-mail.  Cheers!

Lindsey

Title: Re: Our Guild Mission
Post by: DAVE WALKER on April 20, 2006, 12:32:15 AM
Dear lindsey, I have quickly read your thoughts on the direction that the guild should be going in. I will read it in more detail latter, I have been trying for some time to push the guild forward  Its been a struggle. Please kick my back-side if you think I could do better, all thoughts and ideas will be gratefully recieved and I, as long  as I am Chair of the committe, will be put to the committee.
Iwill read your comments in more detail and get back to you .
                  Happy Knotting,
                   Dave Walker,
                              Chair IGKT
Title: Re: Our Guild Mission
Post by: KnotMe on April 20, 2006, 03:59:17 AM
One of the things I find perturbing is the proliferation of sites.  If becoming THE authoritative body is a desired goal, then khww and the new wiki are not particularly helping the cause.  Effort is spread out and dissipated, not to mention difficult to keep track of, even for the enthusiast.

I have many times thought of spawning off a group focused on decorative knotting, but firmly believe that such a thing should be a subset of the IGKT.
Title: Re: Our Guild Mission
Post by: Knot Head on April 20, 2006, 05:33:27 AM
Hey knot heads.

Well to reply to the post above. My intention for KHWW is not to become the authoritive body. KHWW, is just a place for the artist and craftsman to mingle and just maybe get to know one another. Though thousands of miles may seperate the artists, they can still communicate and share with one another.

I believe the Guild is doing the best that they can with what they have to work with. I love that the Guild is here just as much as I love KHWW being there.
Title: Re: Our Guild Mission
Post by: KC on April 20, 2006, 05:34:22 AM
Edit: Knot Head types faster than me i guess; i reply to what he has replied to.

Like many things, i think that can go either way; depending on how you lend yourself to it/ how you work it.  Even the bitters can become lemon-aid....

The work can evolve other places; and be sewn together here at maturity etc.  There doesn't have to be loss.  Much knowledge is already spread to many special-ties that won't just come running here; but will be more comfort-able in it's own environment i believe.

Allowing whatever it takes to build it high, without losing sight of the end goal, can be very powerfull.  By allowing the forces to play out as they best can, not dampening spirits towards any good targets.  It might take more work to bind it to-gather at some points; but the total might hit a higher order if let to flow unfettered and just softly funneled into 1 at the right timings.

No worries, just write!;D

Orrrrrrrrr something like that!

edit: nice sight KnotHead, have to add it to my links page at next re-vision!
Title: Re: Our Guild Mission
Post by: Knot Head on April 20, 2006, 06:29:07 AM
KC has put it in more eloquent words than I. Thankyou for your reply kind sir. :)
Title: Re: Our Guild Mission
Post by: squarerigger on April 20, 2006, 08:54:48 AM
Thanks to Dave W, to KC, Knot Me and to Knot Head!

I absolutely echo what KC has said - the thing I find most daunting is to sort out the wheat from the chaff - maybe I need to get a different filter and start seeing food Vs waste instead?  Dave, I shall look forward most definitely to hearing more from you, KC keep keeping it write and Knot Me and Knot Head - it will all come out right in the end and you are just the people to make it come out that way.

In the power of one there is only effort, in the power of many there is synergy, teamwork and the power to do anything.  Many hands make light work!

Lindsey
Title: Re: Our Guild Mission
Post by: KnotMe on April 20, 2006, 08:08:30 PM
I should point out (since upon reflection my original post just sounded grumpy) that khww and the wiki (already!) are both fine sites.  It is due to the fact that they are informative, lively and cannot be dismissed that makes them so annoying. 8) 8) 8)

Structure (and a single data stream) would do much to help us fight the information overload.
Title: Re: Our Guild Mission
Post by: squarerigger on April 22, 2006, 01:16:06 AM
Hi Carol,

Thanks for your response - what do you suggest should be the format of the structure you are seeking?  If we know what to use, maybe we can use the same structure in all three places?  One thing seems certain - we are awaiting the word from the Guild - maybe we just have to provide the word ourselves and then run it up the flagpole to see who salutes it?

Lindsey
PS  Are you going to San Francisco for our PAB AGM in June/July?
Title: Re: Our Guild Mission
Post by: KnotMe on April 22, 2006, 01:46:51 AM
the avenues are many, but a single web forum, single rss stream, single email list come to mind.

even a single rss stream backed by multiple sites might not be too painful.   the easiest thing for the site creators to do would probably be to send all their updates to a single email notification list with a nice set format (not HTML, please!) with linkbacks so that pictures and threaded discussion could be viewed if so desired.

ps.  yes, still planning to come.  8)
Title: Re: Our Guild Mission
Post by: SKellyog on April 22, 2006, 08:54:44 AM
I would like to respond to KnotMe and KnotHead.  I must admit that I am a bit of a counterculteral type myself.  

The sense of sharing in non-formal relationships is something we all share and aim for - especially in a community like this. Superimposing stucture via rules spelled out by the IGKT will inevitablly lead to a conflicting sense of what the IGKT was set out to accomplish. Is it a  community? Is it a hierachy?

For a member, like mself, posting from a distance, this can be difficult to thrash out.   I like a sense of community! When we agree or differ or posit a solution to a question,  we want respect.  When we finally agree on method (how to tie) we all hope for a naming convention we can refer to and respect even if we don't initially agree on the name.  Should we always agree on the name?  NO!  But we should be able to say that the IGKT (as a whole) has a position on the name (or use,  or purpose) or even historical discription of etc. -  such that  we can cite the IGKT and then state our disagreement. etc....

Of intererst to me....KnotHead has noted the importance of Wikipedia.  Personally, I think Wikipedia has been getting better and better and so on...  I finally learned the Eskimo Bowline from Wikipedia.

I'm not sure how this would happen...    I would hope that Wikipedia would accept or would, as a formal matter, be respectful of official postings by the IGKT! Links back to the IGKT would refer the viewer back to either  a) a decription b)  a dicussion
I would hope Wikipedia can accomodate either a link on its own site or a link on an external (IGKT) site.. (but honestly I don't know)

Personally, I think we have joined the IGKT because it is bigger than us, but in the end it is us.

If I've not understood the points made by KnotHead or KnotMe, my humble appologies. I'm just trying to advance the IGKT.


Title: Re: Our Guild Mission
Post by: knot_tyer on April 22, 2006, 11:30:10 AM
hello SKellyog...
....i'm not sure if you know but Derek made an IGKT-Wiki page/site:

  http://igkt.pbwiki.com/

....it's in the process of becoming official and it works great...just take time to look through the tutorials....
Dan-Alaska
Title: Re: Our Guild Mission
Post by: DerekSmith on April 22, 2006, 01:59:44 PM
As this thread is all about going forward, I made the Wiki as an experiment to see if this style of internet tool could be valuable in promoting the Guild Mission and enabling contributors to directly create content, instead of having to wait for seasonal updates of the official site.

Much can be achieved by motivated contributors if they are given the means, or in this case the medium, to do it.  Look at Wikepedia as an example of how much can be created using a Wiki.  But the internet is a place of evolution.  Ideas which find favour blossom, whereas ideas and sites which attract no use or interest die quickly.

The IGKTWiki is only an experiment.  Only if it is of value will it be reasonable to consider it for formal inclusion within the Guild services.  A static website is ideal to hold hard formal unchanging information together with structural links to various parts of the Guild services - Merbership, Contact, SubGroups, Forum and perhaps the Developmental Wiki.

Only time and use will tell if the Wiki is of any value to the knotting community, but of course, in order to make that asessment, the Wiki has to be there in the first place to allow knotters to think - Is that of any use or value to me? - Is it part of what I have wanted for a long time?  - Do I want something better?
Title: Re: Our Guild Mission
Post by: DerekSmith on April 22, 2006, 04:48:57 PM
Lindsey has posted an important issue here.

I am not a member of IGKT.  That fact should be important to the IGKT leadership and sheds some light on why Lindsey's post is so important.

I am a chemist, and have spent the whole of my career firmly reliant upon, and part of, the numerous Associations, Bodies and Guilds which define and support my industry.  These Professional Bodies are driven by their membership and act purely as 'co-ordinators' to collect and direct endeavors.

As a hobby knot tyer (with a background of rock climbing and a nautical father) I was naturally drawn to the International Guild of Knot Tyers, expecting to find a professional body of the ilk I had been used to working within.

What I found was a disappointment.  The IGKT appeared to be nothing more than a small (even though International) group of amateurs, swapping the occasional knot discussion on the forum.  The website -  which I had expected to hold a reference list of knots, their names and histories, their uses and methods of formation by different occupations, their strengths and weaknesses, and of course, all legislative and CoP aspects of knotting - in reality contained none of this, to such an extent I felt that the IGKT would be of no value to my hobby other than to follow the postings on the forum.

A Google search of the web lists over 27 million hits for knots, that does not even include the fields of rope, thread, braid etc. the specialist fields of sport, industry, decoration and so on.  There is MASSIVE interest in this arena, but the IGKT reflects, promotes and co-ordinates none of it (at least through its web presence).  I recognise that the IGKT also operates the KM and that other streams of information could well be available though that publication, but I surmised that as there was no indication of the IGKT playing the role that its rather grandiose name implied and its mission statement implied it to aspire to.

Against this, Lindsey has highlighted the key issue by posting his question re the Guild Mission.  To Lindsey's question must be added three more:-

What do the present Guild officials want the Guild to become?

What does the present membership want the Guild to provide?

What does the 'Industry' want from a truly representative Guild?

The opportunities and challenges facing the Guild are arguably too big.  Even the name containing the word 'International', challenges the Guild to achieve levels of involvement beyond the scope of just about every other professional body in functional operation today.

To me, the key question is :-

Does 'The Guild' want to stay essentially a 'Hobby' Guild, or do they want to satisfy the need for a professional Guild in this field (i.e. reflect the current mission statement).  The latter is eminently doable, but as Lindsey and others have pointed out, it requires structure, plans, leadership and above all - considerable work and funding.

So, if the IGKT are standing at a critical junction in its evolution, could I suggest that everyone with an interest, contributes to the production of a 'Road Map' of the process the Guild faces in order to get to the goal we each desire.  This forum is a good tool to discuss points of view and issues, but it is not ideal to formulate a consensus plan.  To this end, I have added a 'Road Map' page to the Wiki, which is of course a far better tool to create such a plan.  Visit the page at http://igkt.pbwiki.com/IGKT%20Mission and log in with name, email address and the password igkt in order to edit the page.  I will kick off the process with my own contribution for others to reshape as they see fit.
Title: Re: Our Guild Mission
Post by: squarerigger on April 22, 2006, 06:27:35 PM
Good Morning Derek,

I really appreciate your having added more questions - the answers are important to know, and I would like to be part of the formulation of the answers and an individual who is able to use the answers.  Principally, I think the Guild was set up as a "hobby mostly" group, with dreams of making it much bigger, based on the first writings and notions of which I am aware.  The fact that an authoritative body was needed to resolve the question initially posed in the Times (of London) gives credence to this thought and that may have been the driver to include that wording (authoritative body) in the Mission.  Add to that a "somewhat" more fanciful idea of finding out how knots really work scientifically and you have the makings of the Guild's Mission.  Right now, the hobbyists are alive, active and kicking butt to get the answers - but sometimes those answers exist in some as-yet-undefined manner, loosely coming together now or then and perhaps being answered.  Much (but certainly not all) of what exists is happenstance, rumor, belief, hand-me-down  and supposition, rather than hard fact defined by scientific study, using methods that statistically eliminate a majority of other possible answers, much in the same way as scientists do their work today so as to reduce the possibility that another answer exists.

I think we need to do just as you have suggested - decide what it is we do.  There are other groups who also have an interest in what we do - manufacturer groups who have a different focus for themselves, anthropolgists who argue with themselves, criminal analysts, fashionistas, you name it....  Can we provide answers for all?  I think not now, but eventually probably we can answer, say, 99.9% of questions.  That would be a part of the goals we would have to set for ourselves in defining what it is we do.

Right now we SAY that we do much and we do much of what we say we do, but in a less-than-focussed form and without adequate funding.  Let us get some focus, define what we do and then the devil take the hindmost - whether or not we do this as volunteers, we can still achieve great things.  Anecdotally, I have had the good fortune to work with some volunteers who are unusually dedicated to what they do.  They usually know what they can achieve collectively, given a goal, a driver and a willing team with people willing to step into the breach when things are not as quick or as complete as they would have liked.  I know we have such a team among our members - I know we have such goals among our own dreams  - and I think we can do it.  Every tool we can find to help achieve our goal will be welcomed - but first we have to decide what our goal is, define it some and then set about working up a plan to achieve it.  In saying "we" have to decide it, "we" have to decide what "we" do.  I would like the "we" to be reflective of our Council, hence our membership, and hence ourselves, so that as a Guild "we" can set about achieving our goals.

Thanks again for your interest and input.

Lindsey
Title: Re: Our Guild Mission
Post by: KC on April 22, 2006, 10:03:49 PM
i too have stopped by several times over the years to scour around these parts for answers about working class knots of a more mechanical, safety, strength etc. focus, along with pulley use etc.

Kinda where you would go as an extension of ABOK etc.; for more modern, scientific evaluations and updates etc. as referance and authority.

Until visiting so; i'd kinda forgotten there were ornamental knots; so beyond a reminder of that; found not much to help me and others of the working fields.

i think this working class of knot lacings is vast, and laoded witht he simplest and very powerfull mechanics that 'binds' it all together.

Only force can overcome distance.  The flip side of that as promised by the Equal and Opposite duality; is that only force can keep somethng from gaining distance that wants to move.  Knots are man's simple way to do so, and full of history because of it.  To sieze, apply power to, or compound the powers of seperate events together; knots were man's first choice; and probably predates cooking.  So, to me it is science/ mechanics.

If the IGKT doesn't wish to lead so, someone else eventually will; but noone will be as setup and logically looked to for this task, methinks.

Title: Re: Our Guild Mission
Post by: KnotMe on April 22, 2006, 10:38:32 PM
just one thought about increasing membership:
- give or set a greatly reduced membership cost for scouts/guides/cubs/brownies/sparks/etc.

- perhaps a junior or associate membership (give them an email knotting
matters vs paper to differentiate and keep costs down?)

- reach out to allied guilds/crafts:  in particular, i think there is a ropemaking group.  also the braid society.  probably there are climbing and fishing groups and a host of sailing groups.

- i have mentioned before and i will say again that there are decorative knotting groups in Taiwan, Korea, Japan, and probably China as well.  I have unverified information about Korea and Taiwan...
Title: Re: Our Guild Mission
Post by: Willeke on April 22, 2006, 11:01:03 PM
This is a reaction on KnotMe, but it is an idea I have been thinking about for a while, I even have spoken about it a few times.

I feel it is time to send a personalised letter to every magazine/organization to do with knots. Like (but not just) sailing magazines, outdoorsports, crafts (esp needlework with a broad view), scouting, ....
In that letter can be a bit about the guild, international and per country on country level. Or even on local level for local magazines or groups.
A paragraph on some members working (hobby or professional) in the field of the magazine or organisation, with names and contact information, by preference within traveling distance so the magazine can interview them.
And if there are any, contact information for 'local meetings'. (These can also be national or international meetings.)

The letter will be in English, as it is an official outing from the guild, but should be translated to the languages of the magazines or organisations to which they are addressed.
I think local members should translate the letter and add the personal information, of course only with the consent of the persons to be listed.

To get the letters to the people to send them we need to know the field of knottying of many of our members so we can co-ordinate who to send it to and which magazines they can reach.

I am willing to do my part, and translate into Dutch and send it to all magazines where decorative knot tying can be at home.

Willeke
Title: Re: Our Guild Mission
Post by: Dan_Lehman on April 23, 2006, 10:06:49 AM
Quote
I have been trying for some time to push the guild forward  Its been a struggle.  ... all thoughts and ideas will be gratefully recieved and I, as long  as I am Chair of the committe, will be put to the committee.

Some time ago there was some scattered discussion in KM regarding forming
a basic knots set; I submitted an article musing over this, but it didn't make
the cut then--perhaps coming late enough that the issue was felt to be stale.
But I also recommended to a past Chair that it should be good if the IGKT could
create such a knots set for recommending to scouting organizations,
which are at once (1) youth/future, (2) large in number, and (3) in need of some
updating of their knots.  In the absence of overall Guild action, one chapter took
it upon themselves to create a set, and the Surrey Six was born.  (The extant
set(s) of scouting knots arose in times of natural-fibre cordage; but today one is
more apt to find polypropylene, polyester, & nylon.)

Anyway, I still think this would be a good way to ingratiate the IGKT with a
significant population.

And this need not be limited to practical knotting, esp. w/girl scouts, who might
more readily take to the decorative side as well.

Quote
I feel it is time to send a personalised letter to every magazine/organization to do with knots. Like (but not just) sailing magazines, outdoorsports, crafts (esp needlework with a broad view), scouting, ....
In that letter can be a bit about the guild, international and per country on country level. Or even on local level for local magazines or groups.

Despite what Derek has remarked?  --about his (even w/o help of a letter) finding
the IGKT, but finding it wanting in interest to him?  And as I remarked earlier,
what of the IGKT is there to commend it to the serious rope user?
I don't think we're there yet (on the practical knotting[i/] side).

--dl*
====
Title: Re: Our Guild Mission
Post by: DerekSmith on April 23, 2006, 10:53:39 AM
Hi Carol,

I have taken the liberty to add your membership ideas to the 'Road Map' at http://igkt.pbwiki.com/IGKT%20Mission and credited them to you.

PS  You have created a stunning visual style for your Chinese knots website.  Your use of rainbow braid is not only attractive, it also allows the eye to follow the strand through the knot with greater accuracy.  Your use of a standardised mannequin hand created excellent clarity of method.

Perhaps both of these could be considered as the defacto standard in the IGKT Knot Index
Title: Re: Our Guild Mission
Post by: KnotMe on April 25, 2006, 02:18:41 AM
Willeke: what you are describing sounds very much like a press release.  Having recently taken a class on the topic, what you describe makes a lot of sense.  Press packages take some work, but what they do is make publishing an article by a magazine or newspaper easy, because you've already written it for them.  You've given all the information and resources and wording they need tied up with a neat bow.  They will sometimes take you up on an interview (to change focus or expand on the piece you've written which is no more than 2 pages), sometimes they will rewrite the article in their own voice, but as often as not, they will drop the whole thing verbatim into their publication.  Much less work for them that way.  Publications like press releases.

For the guild to undertake this, they (we?  8) should write a template release with a few guidelines and goals, then ask for volunteers from the membership for targets (publications, guilds, groups, etc) and localization assistance (eg. get a scout leader to tailor the release for scouting organizations, get a local to tailor the release for a local boating group)

Derek:  thanks so much for the feedback.  I have tried to cull the best practices from the various books and magazine articles that I have observed.  My methods are, therefore, by no means original and if others want to use them, they are more than welcome.  The goal has always been to make pictoral instructions so clear that the text that accompanies it is redundant and unnessary so that an international audience that may not (fully or at all) understand your language can still use your instructions (I have far more Chinese, Japanese, Korean and one Czech! craft books than I have English ones and my lack of fluency or literacy in those languages hinder me only slightly).
Title: Re: Our Guild Mission
Post by: squarerigger on April 25, 2006, 06:29:44 PM
To Carol and Willeke,

I think that, if the IGKT ever asks for such a press release, you may well be the people to whom the Guild should turn, because your energy in that direction is positive and certainly well-intentioned and well thought through.  Dan's point about whether or not the Guild actually is able to back up the release without first having checked out the local talent, the availability, a local and knowledgeabe contact, etc is also very valid and perhaps we should make such a request to the Council prior to putting in effort such as this?


To all our faithful readers and writers,

Prior to all of the above, however, should we also ask the Secretary or President of the Guild for the Council's desired direction in ratifying, denying, rewriting or in any other way saying that the Guild Mission is where it should be and that it looks like what we do (or have truly committed to do) as a group?  It would be horribly embarassing to have a Mission that we cannot support or that we cannot say exactly where we AS A GROUP are meeting the Mission Statement.

Lindsey
Title: Re: Our Guild Mission
Post by: admin on April 28, 2006, 01:53:13 PM
Quote

P. S. Luv that this site allows Flash animations; many don't!

Please do not post Flash animations on this forum.

This site and forum are hosted in the UK which has specific laws regarding web sites and what they might/might not offer to disabled people. Some animations can trigger photo-epilepsy which could in turn result in a formal complaint against this forum. Others, such as the one posted in this thread, are not accessible to anyone who cannot use a mouse - which could result in a complaint of disability discrimination.

In the interestes of protecting IGKT against any such complaints, I would strongly recommend that any animations are posted on an external site and only the urls are posted here.

Thank you.
Title: Re: Our Guild Mission
Post by: admin on April 28, 2006, 01:58:49 PM
Quote
This is exactly the kind of thing that should be in an area of its own on our web-page - how about it Mel?Lindsey

I am more than happy to help with any suggestions for additions to the site - although I would have to wait for formal approval from IGKT's web adminstrator before going ahead.

However, I think it only fair to warn you that, with regard to animations, they would need to comply with current guidelines and UK legal requirements for access by disabled people. Videos are another possibility but, likewise, each video would need to be accompanied by full text and audio transcripts.

It's all do-able but may be a little more complex than most people envisage if you get into the realms of multimedia.

Mel

Title: Re: Our Guild Mission
Post by: squarerigger on April 28, 2006, 05:58:23 PM
Hi Mel and KC,

Please pardon that I was not aware of the UK's restrictions on public forums.  When replying to KC I had in mind that a separate part of the Forum would be helpfully set off from the other three principal areas.  If that can still be achieved within the rules, so that readers then can choose what they read, how may I help to get that in place?  KC - did Mel's comments throw any light on your thoughts?  PM me and we'll talk,

Lindsey
Title: Re: Our Guild Mission
Post by: Jimbo on April 28, 2006, 06:05:41 PM
Quote

Please do not post Flash animations on this forum.


AMEN!!
AMEN!!
AMEN!!!!!

Ditto for any other "spinning, flaming logos"!!  And that goes for Microsoft's abominable "Marquee" as well!  It doesn't help convey information, it just annoys people.

The only thing that should move on your screen is your own mouse pointer!

Animated GIF files aren't usually too big, but fall into Webmistress' "visual trigger" category*, so please consider animated GIF's as the same thing as flash, but without the extra software.  (Not to mention that most knot animations stink!!)

Just keep reminding yourself: Animation is not Information.

*BTW, Webmistress, most people who have that type of epilepsy will have enough self-preservation instinct to disable Flash, animations, etc., and will use a Standards-based browser which doesn't support the hideous "Marquee".  Oh, and you can disable all this in the YaBB setup!   ;D
Title: Re: Our Guild Mission
Post by: admin on April 28, 2006, 06:38:57 PM
Quote
*BTW, Webmistress, most people who have that type of epilepsy will have enough self-preservation instinct to disable Flash, animations, etc., and will use a Standards-based browser which doesn't support the hideous "Marquee".

Internet Explorer still has about a 70% share of the market and I wouldn't call that a 'standards compliant browser'. :)

Seriously though, some people access the web via libraries or other semi-public machines where individual browser configuration isn't allowed, so we need to bear in mind that, although the average home user should be be to disable some web page features, it doesn't mean that they will:
a) have the knowledge/confidence to do so
or
b) have the option to do so in specific situations.

I'm not against animations, per se but I do think they need to be used carefully and appropriately.

Quote
Oh, and you can disable all this in the YaBB setup!   ;D

I've had a quick look via the admin interface and didn't spot anything I could disable that wouldn't have a knock on effect elsewhere - such as stopping people uploading perfectly acceptable static images. However, I haven't checked through the setup script yet. Perhaps there's something in there I could ultilise if this ever becomes a real problem?

Generally speaking, I think it's usually better to educate and explain the issues if possible. Most people simply don't realise there are problems associated with specific types of multimedia and will usually react very positively once they do become aware. That means I can save rules and exclusions for only the most intransient cases.
:)
Title: Re: Our Guild Mission
Post by: admin on April 28, 2006, 06:58:39 PM
Quote
Hi Mel and KC,

Please pardon that I was not aware of the UK's restrictions on public forums.

No problem, Lindsey. Most people - including the owners of a few really big commercial sites - aren't aware that the UK does have laws and guidelines covering all forms of electronic communication - including web sites.

For the most part, the DRC did try a softly-softly approach for 5 years but, when that didn't work,  started to make some more agressive rumbling sounds about a year ago. That culminated in a new BSI guideline document being released early last month which has meant that the whole issue of web site accessibility across the board has suddenly been thrown into quite a strong spotlight.

Quote
When replying to KC I had in mind that a separate part of the Forum would be helpfully set off from the other three principal areas.  If that can still be achieved within the rules, so that readers then can choose what they read, how may I help to get that in place?


Given that forums are more discussion areas rather than reference sources, I'd suggest that a better place for some of the material might be on the main web site. People could then link back and forth within the forum without introducing any new problems. It would also open up the possibility of having alternative 'accessible' versions of some material (such as transcripts of videos or Flash presentations) available for those that needed it.

Defining what is, or what is not, accessible, within a web site, can be a complex business and, ideally, every case has to be judged on its own merits and then the appropriate action taken if necessary. With the greatest of respect to forum members, it has taken me 5 years to 'learn' accessible design techniques (and I'm still learning), so I don't think it would be fair or reasonable to ask someone who didn't have the technical background to make those sorts of decisions by throwing open an area of the forum to them and then saying "Oh - make sure it's accessible".

However, with the web admin's OK, I'd be more than happy to work with forum members to develop an area of the web site that was designed to meet the necessary resource requirements and remained accessible within the current UK guidelines.

Quote
 KC - did Mel's comments throw any light on your thoughts?

I did send KC some resources on developing accessible Flash presentations via a thread on the Feedback board that might help.

Title: Re: Our Guild Mission
Post by: squarerigger on April 28, 2006, 07:13:26 PM
Perfect!  Could that

Quote
However, with the web admin's OK, I'd be more than happy to work with forum members to develop an area of the web site that was designed to meet the necessary resource requirements and remained accessible within the current UK guidelines.


area also be made members-only access?  Thanks so much Mel!

Lindsey
Title: Re: Our Guild Mission
Post by: admin on April 28, 2006, 07:52:39 PM
Quote
Perfect!  Could that
area also be made members-only access?

If you want a single username/password that every member uses, I can set up such a 'members only' area within minutes. In fact, it's something that Lesley and I discussed a while back but never managed to develop beyond the idea stage.

An area that used an individual usernname/password for every member (similar to the forum) is also do-able but, as it's more complex, would take longer to set up and would require members to register to use it.
Title: Re: Our Guild Mission
Post by: DerekSmith on April 29, 2006, 03:58:37 AM
This thread started with a plea that the IGKT should begin to practice what it preaches - at least to practice what it claims in its Mission stament, and of these the first one is:-

Quote
1. To promote the art, craft and science of knotting, its study and practice


Without question, the IGKT needs to promote itself.  Indeed, even this forum only has 16 pages of posts since 2004 and the last page of posts contains contributions from less than three dozen individuals.  By todays standards, that is DEAD.  Many Forums have hundreds of posters active at any moment and zip through a couple of pages of posts in a day.

However, within the last five posts alone there have been three major attempts to kill any interest the remaining few posters may have.

First we have an administrator posting instructions not to make posts too long because it might bore some people, particularly the administrators who feel duty bound to read everything in order to ensure safety of content.  --  Promote but only in small chunks  --

Second we have the Webmistress herself, instructing posters not to post animations because they are not PC and because they do not have 'mouse independent' functionality.  So that is --  Promote but only use boreing text, No Animations Please - We're British  --

And finally and almost unbelievably, the person who started the thread with a plea for the IGKT to look to practice its Mission statements is, if I understand his last post correctly, requesting that the :-
Quote
area also be made members-only access?

And I think that comes out something like --  Promote, but only in secret, and only to those who already 'belong'. --

Now for those who do not understand.  PROMOTE sort of means --  Take it to those who do not already belong, give it to them and see if it interests them.  Listen to their comments, implement them and thereby attract a wider and growing audience, then do it all again.

It does NOT mean -- Strangle, Stifle and Hide behind locked passwords.

If you folks really want to grow the IGKT and implement the Mission Statements, then  --  Willeke, for all your excellent work, no one makes you do it.  So, if the posts bore you then either don't read them or quit administration.  But if you decide to stay an administrator, please be thankful that you have something to administrate.  If you get so pickie as to complain about too much boreing stuff to read, you might soon have nothing to administrate but your own posts.

--  Webmistress, the IGKT site contains virtually nothing of interest to the majority of knotters.  This is evidenced by the growing number of excellent sites offering an extensive array of graphics and content.  It is the 'I' GKT, as in International, and although the site is hosted in the UK you aspire to an international status and an international audience.  Now, although Britain is fast becoming a truely international Jackass with its 'Baa Baa 'Rainbow' Sheep' idiocy, you do the site no favours by reminding visitors that Britain is now a 'Nation' of PC pratts.  And as for turning away someone who has spent considerable time and effort in creating a visual aid which very effectively opens the mind to the mechanics within a knot - you do the IGKT and its Mission a dire dis-service.

Finally -- Lindsey.  You claim that you want the IGKT to 'Go Forward'  to 'Meet its Mission Statement'.  But I must ask - Is your agenda something totally different?  Your request was not the sort of thing I would expect to hear from someone truely intent on promoting the IGKT.  You cannot promote from inside a locked room with closed curtains.  Your comment is more in line with the actions of a person intent upon gaining control.  I do so hope that I am wrong !!
Title: Re: Our Guild Mission
Post by: Jimbo on April 29, 2006, 04:29:02 AM
Quote
I have a dilemma and need some help.  There are fifteen pages of knot forum postings on this web-site and not one of them has to do with the other two parts of our Mission.

Perhaps that's because this site is only intended to support one part of the Mission...

Call it "Public Outreach"...

Or not, but I hope you find this idea useful:

Trying to answer several postings, it suddenly dawned on me that there's a really good model already available.  Much is left unsaid...

Consider the World Wide Web Consortium (http://www.w3.org/).

This is a group of passionately interested, unpaid (or, at best underpaid) devoted individuals who have managed to define the way the world will communicate for the next century or so at least.  And that despite (as Webmistress hinted) the persistent, determined assault by the richest man in the world, using his entire software factory as his weapon!!

My suggestion would be that the IGKT "arrange" (assign, appoint, berate, cajole, dole out, whatever) a "Working Group" of 5 or 10 people to communicate with the W3C (http://www.w3.org/) and learn as much as possible about the strategy and tactics they used to achieve their mission, then bring that knowledge back to the IGKT at large in the form of a collaborative report.  The Working Group could pass copies of their report amongst themselves until they all agreed that it said what it needed to say, then release it to the general population.

Once the entire Guild has had a chance to review the report (of the methods used by the World Wide Web Consortium to achieve their mission objectives), general discussion ("rabble") could last for some time to weed out the "do-able" items from the "no way" bits.  (Example: a "database" of knots, comparable in scope and purpose to the database of HTML commands, should be maintained by the Guild, but (other than making it freely available for communication) the method of communication need not be addressed.)  This forum should be prepared to host that discussion, and everyone even interested should be prepared to step in and do the "do-able" items as they turn up.

This adapted information (aka "knowledge") could then serve as a framework for the IGKT to use ... well, assuming a lot about ambitions and all that ... you know the rest.

There are other models than this.  The method of acquiring knowledge could work for all, especially with several "Working Groups" working simultaneously ...

Just a thought.


Jimbo
(PS: "dilemma" is technically a problem having two and only two (equally good-or-bad - mutually exclusive) solutions.  From "di", meaning two and "lemma" meaning "horn" (either way, you're "stuck"  :D ).  You have a quandary, a predicament, a plight, a jam, a fix, a pickle.  ;D  You also have a knack for starting and maintaining a really nice thread!!)
Title: Re: Our Guild Mission
Post by: squarerigger on April 29, 2006, 05:17:04 AM
Hi Derek,

It is amazing what can happen when you read between the lines, isn't it?  You asked:

Quote
Finally -- Lindsey.  You claim that you want the IGKT to 'Go Forward'  to 'Meet its Mission Statement'.  But I must ask - Is your agenda something totally different?  Your request was not the sort of thing I would expect to hear from someone truely intent on promoting the IGKT.  You cannot promote from inside a locked room with closed curtains.  Your comment is more in line with the actions of a person intent upon gaining control.  I do so hope that I am wrong !!


You are wrong.  I wish no control, nor indeed did I advocate any, and I did not request control - I wrote, simply:

Quote
Could that area also be made members-only access?


I wrote that request to know whether it was possible, not whether it should be practiced!  I know, usually when someone asks if something can be done, the assumption is made that they also want it done.  Remember, when I assume, I make an ASS out of U and ME.  Read what is written not what is read, and particularly not what is read into what is written!

You might BETTER and more usefully have asked "Why do you want to know"? which would be much more reasonable and more in line with what I would have expected from you (don't ask).  But it does not appear that you are seeking reasonableness - Derek says that it should be so and it must therefore be so?  Are you somehow concerned with being shut out?  Has your diatribe added to the establishment or fulfillment of the Mission Statement? :o  It would make me mad as heck to have someone assuming rather than trying to find out what is going on - why did you not ask >:(?  maybe you did and I missed it?  See - I am asking...

Here is what you told Willeke to do...

Quote
then either don't read them or quit administration


Here is what you told Webmistress ...

Quote
And as for turning away someone who has spent considerable time and effort in creating a visual aid which very effectively opens the mind to the mechanics within a knot - you do the IGKT and its Mission a dire dis-service


Willeke's point was towards reasonableness and Webmistress's was towards compliance with the law.  I recognize that we should always question authority, but, please, let's do so in a true sense of trying to find out something that can be improved, rather than jumping to conclusions.  Nobody is trying to shut you up - just asking for some cooperation...

You asked what my agenda is - I simply want to know what the Mission of the Guild is and how we fulfill it.  Nothing more - thanks for asking.  Once I know what the Mission is and how we are going about fulfilling that Mission, I will have some better idea of where I fit in.  Does that help you?  Are you prepared to meet that? ???

Lindsey
Title: Re: Our Guild Mission
Post by: DerekSmith on April 29, 2006, 11:38:26 AM
Touche Lindsey, now to use your own words, please read what I wrote.

Quote
snip --
And finally and almost unbelievably, the person who started the thread with a plea for the IGKT to look to practice its Mission statements is, if I understand his last post correctly, requesting that the " area also be made members-only access?" -- snip --I do so hope that I am wrong !!


Thank you for confirming that my reading of that request was wrong.  So now following your advice I will ask.

"Why do you want to know if the site can be locked by password?"
Title: Re: Our Guild Mission
Post by: Willeke on April 29, 2006, 12:21:45 PM
There can be, in the future, a kind of information or discussion we do not want to share with the whole world.

An example can be a password for a wiki, so we can have many aproved members working together but at the same time keep the public from missusing the site.
Having had to dump the same bit of spam from a forum 5 days running I am getting aware that spammers will kill a lot of nice sites.

Willeke
Title: Re: Our Guild Mission
Post by: DerekSmith on April 29, 2006, 05:53:12 PM
Quote
There can be, in the future, a kind of information or discussion we do not want to share with the whole world.

An example can be a password for a wiki, so we can have many aproved members working together but at the same time keep the public from missusing the site.
Having had to dump the same bit of spam from a forum 5 days running I am getting aware that spammers will kill a lot of nice site.

Now there you have the crux Willeke.  Security against spam and mischiefe.  However, even one of the biggest Wikis on the web - Wikipedia, functions with an open book approach.  Every contributor registers and signs on so they can be kicked off if they misbehave, but appart from that, it is an open book - they desperately need contributors - Wikipedia is only the success it is because of the millions of hours its contributors have spent creating its content.  None of that would have happened if they had got all precious and protective at the begining.

Hey, even 'I' am allowed to contribute !!

A Wiki is a bit of anarchy.  It is not perfect and every bit of content is not 'right' all of the time, but none of that matters in the long run.  It is a big leap from a 'formal' website where every word is accounted for and crosschecked.  But where the job is big and you need the help of a lot of people, then the Wiki has proven itself to be a very powerful tool of enablement.  Wikipedia is just one example of proof.

Quite simply, over security can kill more than it can cure, it needs implementing with caution and with consideration for the potential implications.

Title: Re: Our Guild Mission
Post by: Jimbo on April 29, 2006, 10:40:52 PM
People!  People!!  SETTLE!!!

DerekSmith, I can tell from the way you 'think', you're an American.  To you, "anarchy" (the social state of living without the rulership of a king or queen) is as natural as "citizenship", because that's the way we do it "over here".

We all need to remember this is supposed to be "International".

The thing a lot of Americans don't seem to "get" is that Europeans don't like freedom!!  Believe it or not, many of them actually fear the thought of independent individual autonomy!!  "The blessings of Liberty" is as foreign a concept to them as "The bounds of Society" is to us.  European Socialist ruling class [ string of expletives deleted ] have worked long and hard to indoctrinate their "subjects" into servile submission to alleged "authority"; and they're good at their jobs.  Many of them still believe some great invisible white guy came down to Earth & impregnated their great-great-...-great grandmother, just so they could be "the boss".

To Americans, this just seems absurd.  Actually, to an ever-increasing number of European "commoners", the absurdity of a hierarchical, class-oriented society and artificially proscribed behavior is becoming more and more obvious.  So there's some hope for "day after tomorrow"...

But for today, we free Citizens will just have to be patient with our European brothers & sisters until they can catch up with us.  They seem to be making progress throwing off their shackles, so let them.  We owe them that, because they are our brothers and sisters.  Stone walled castles and secret passwords - the whole Spy vs. Spy mentality - are just quaint, if you choose to see it that way; and if you don't already have a throw-away E-mail address for receiving "countersign" passwords, you should go set one up now.  Perhaps some may forget where we are...  No one with any sense exposes personal information on the Internet anyway, so playing their "Star Chamber" game couldn't possibly hurt as bad as it did in Milton's time!

Likewise, our European brothers & sisters are going to have to realize that we "ugly Americans" just don't "get it", when you obsess over authority figures, "hierarchical collective command structures", secret meetings, codes, passwords, rulership, censorship, oppression...  Freedom-loving Americans don't tolerate any of that.  We aim at the officers, on purpose, remember?  That's why we're here and not over there with you.  Yes, it's true we're currently infected (as a society) with a bad case of Eurotrash in our prima-facie "ruling classes" -- the more European we get, the more our system breaks down.  But since we argue amongst ourselves so much, it takes us a long time.  We like that, and we do improve, just not quickly -- we have a proven process in place & we're effecting repairs!

On a more personal note:  We all need to remember that each and every individual here has to be here!  ???  Not because anyone "over" us "made" us come, but because each and every one of us, newbie and old, is driven by the exact same mysterious electric passion you feel when you take up a piece of cordage & put a clever kink in it.

It would help us all to learn to appreciate and embrace (or at least ignore) our personality and word-choice differences & stick to our knotting.

Wiki's come & wiki's go; and the same fate may await the IGKT.

Meanwhile,
                                     all we,
                                                        here,
                                                                           have ...
                                                                                              is us,
                                                                                                                                                                           here.

What are we going to do about that?

Hmmm?
Title: Re: Our Guild Mission
Post by: Fabounaman on April 29, 2006, 11:34:58 PM
Hi Jimbo ;)
You are funny, but you also speak the truth, even if you have a long way to do it.

But when you say
"On a more personal note:  We all need to remember that each and every individual here has to be here!    Not because anyone "over" us "made" us come, but because each and every one of us, newbie and old, is driven by the exact same mysterious electric passion you feel when you take up a piece of cordage & put a clever kink in it."

Why does anyone "have" to be here when you have the freedom to be "there"  some place where there is no arguing,  it looks to me as if you as individuals are doing the mission allready that the IGKT is not appeering to do.
I do not know if I have write properly what I mean here.
sorry if it is wrong.

Thanx
fabounaman


Title: Re: Our Guild Mission
Post by: admin on April 29, 2006, 11:58:07 PM
Quote

Consider the World Wide Web Consortium (http://www.w3.org/).
[..]
My suggestion would be that the IGKT "arrange" (assign, appoint, berate, cajole, dole out, whatever) a "Working Group" of 5 or 10 people to communicate with the W3C (http://www.w3.org/) and learn as much as possible about the strategy and tactics they used to achieve their mission, then bring that knowledge back to the IGKT at large in the form of a collaborative report.


One word...

Money.

W3C  does have a very significant amount of commercial backing. Even a very large corportion run by, say, the richest man in the world, contributes to the 'pot'. The fact that such a corporation then appears to totally ignore W3C's recommendations just goes to show that the world we live in isn't always fair or logical. :)

Title: Re: Our Guild Mission
Post by: Dan_Lehman on April 30, 2006, 12:32:19 AM
Quote
Dan, ... could you come up with some more specific suggestions as to how this will work?  You did make some good suggestions...

...
You appear to suggest that the majority of knot books are crap, because they parrott what has gone before without thinking and that color photos are put in to sell books.
...
Therefore I need to follow to a certain extent what the publisher wants to have, because they are taking the financial risk.

I listened closely to a t.v. news blurb about the (most) recent case of plagiarism
(or, in author's non-incriminating-speak, "internalizing (other's words)"),
and then a follow-up insight that for many books, it is the PUBLISHER who dictates
much of the plot & characters, then seeks an author.  I found this to be the case for
Maria Co[n]stantino's books, where clearly she'd been contracted (after the publisher
couldn't find some IGKT hack for it) to produce yet another Knots-101 book,
with resultant comedy of some goofs in ignorant paraphrase, etc..

But to the What to do, hmmm, a SIG-PracticalKnotting could inventory the
knotting by application area (user group), building the many knot-sets to each.
Now, KC falls to us from the uppeReaches of limbs, and we might have also other
contacts to the arborist world (and there area several on-line forums, and some
pub'd works).  There are likely a few climbers (Derek & I claim some familiarity;
mine is slight, on the fringe (I like to spell it 's a f e' if not 'c h i c k e n' :) );
maybe some cavers or SAR folks?
Commercial fishing has itself various fields, and all have some regional flavors,
I surmise.  But e.g. only with this latter field, in their binding of lines & mesh in
netting, have I seen the Seizing Hitch--the tying of #1243 from R to L,
or top to bottom (end) as Ashley presents it, line running in spiral around whatever
is to be bound, knot sometimes serving to just give intermittent locking of this
spiral wrap.  And many other knotted structures of commercial fishing aren't visible
in published works I've been able to find.

Maybe there is sufficient research to be done back in time--read "with rare/old books,
scarce resources, good library--about the history of some knots.  Anyone who's
read Pieter van de Griend's Letter to Lester can see how this can result
in revised histories, in doubt about the printed word  (he sought the origin of the
Constrictor knot--reached a "?" loose end at Tom Bowling's & Hjalmar Ohrvall's
mention of it (no images), with neither implying that the knot was new to them
(unlike Ashley did, much later), but also giving no hint of their source for it)!

Maybe some SIG-Materials/Cordage could help describe the various cordage in
use, and to compile some collection of test data & other information.  From my not
so well organized observations, I see conflicting information given about materials'
resistance to UV or abrasion, etc., in manufacturer data.  A compilation of such would
put all that in more perspicuous contrast.
(My conjecture is that modern cordage has a vastly greater variety of surface
friction (materials & coatings), construction (lays & braids), & elasticity (from the
no-stretch high-mod.s to elonnnnnnngating nylon) than in the past, but much
of the parroted information re knots is brought forward without good adaptation
(this, too, a basis for the Surrey Six).

Peter Suber continues, but has for some time been absorbed with a new job and
unable to actively update/maintain his big WWWebsite on knotting.  Maybe some
folks could offer to help out there, or to mirror via clean-up?

Both the practical-knotting SIG & some impractical/worthless-er-decorative-knotting
SIG (smiley smiley SMILEY) could seek by simple look-&-see-&-record compilation
greatly expand the current IGKT WWWeb site's "Other Websites of Interest",
perhaps with some further categorization of listings--there'd be lots of folks' own
sites up for decorative works, easily!  And maybe there'd be a periodically updated
Overview document giving some explanation of the area as an introduction to the
collected sites (which might be seen as furthering what P.Suber has done).

E-mail, e-communications are fast; but personal lives move in a different pace,
and we must build our patience remembering that, too.

--dl*
====
Title: Re: Our Guild Mission
Post by: Willeke on April 30, 2006, 12:35:11 AM
About freedom.....

Most people living in the USA think they are living in the most free country.
That is a dream, so if you think that way, please dream on.

Our freedom is different from yours but we do not need to sue everybody to proof we are free.
We have different laws from you, we also have different laws from our neighbours, we are not upset about it.
We try to live our lifes so that we do not break the laws, unless we feel that breaking the law is really important.

About the guild moving slowly....

As an international organisation we have to comply with the law in Europe, as well as the law in America.
And with the tendency in America to sue and the protection of the European laws we might be a little too tied in to move freely.

I do understand the hessitation of the commity of the guild and their trying to stay within the law. If they let the guild break laws they are, as a person, responsible.
And our prisons might be more humane than what I see from the USA, I can understand that they do not want to run the risk. (Nor the risk of paying a heavy fine, which is much more likely.)

But when the commity of the IGKT agrees to go for something they often do it wholeheartedly and with great speed. So they might surprise you one day.

Willeke
Title: Re: Our Guild Mission
Post by: squarerigger on April 30, 2006, 12:53:51 AM
Hi Jimbo,

Man, I nearly missed the chance to respond to your excellent suggestion on April 28 in the evening about how to get some hints from the W3C - that architecture is already on their web-site!  They (in our case the IGKT Working Group or whatever) define Activities, then gather Groups interested in the defined Activities (from among the membership of interested parties), then ask for a Proposal from the Group to get the Activity completed - couldn't be simpler!  The whole process could be repeated over and over with different Activities each time.  I like it!

We would not NEED money - as long as we have willing volunteers, we can achieve whatever we put our mind to do. :)  However, they may need some considerable guidance...

Thanks for the suggestion!

Lindsey

Title: Re: Our Guild Mission
Post by: squarerigger on April 30, 2006, 01:08:30 AM
Hi Dan,

Now you're thinking and making positive suggestions at the same time - wonderful!! :) ;) :D ;D

Your idea of SIGs (Special Interest Groups, for those who may not know what it means) is right along the same lines as Jimbo referenced in his posting about using the architecture of the W3C Activities and Groups method.  There are many methods, but both of these methods seem more collaborative than others and would definitely help to pull us together instead of pulling us apart.  Some of them may even need to work together first (alone? shudder!) before releasing their ideas for general comment? 8)

Anyone for tennis?  I seem to recall that this is a line from a play, but that may not have been its first use - it was an invitation to come join an activity together, albeit sometimes competitively, known colloquially as play - wanna play?  Let me know...

Lindsey

Title: Re: Our Guild Mission
Post by: KnotMe on April 30, 2006, 07:05:23 AM
someone mentioned peter suber's annotated link omnibus and the possibility of the guild maintaining one.  another thing to consider for a guildie is to work for the Open Directory Project (http://www.dmoz.org/).  This is a volunteer organization that feeds google and various other search engines and thus very important.  I have volunteered off and on with the decorative knotting category, but can't keep up (and am not currently the editor for that category or the macrame category.  last i looked both are up for grabs).

This would be important and influential work for someone knowledgeable,  and with the time and energy to keep up with the ever growing and evolving web.
Title: Re: Our Guild Mission
Post by: squarerigger on May 01, 2006, 05:43:38 AM
Great site Carol,

Some very interesting material and quite extensive too!  Thanks for the heads-up

Lindsey
Title: Re: Our Guild Mission
Post by: KnotMe on May 01, 2006, 11:57:27 PM
I'm going to go ahead and beat a dead horse, because, perhaps I wasn't clear before.  The open directory project was created as an open source competitor to Yahoo.  It has since surpassed Yahoo and feeds both Yahoo and Google and a host of other search engines and major portals because it is open source, because the subject matter experts are volunteers (and you could be one, the application process is simple).  In this sense it is closely allied to the Wikipedia (the volunteer part, I don't think the Wikipedia makes you audition to enter data).
Title: Re: Our Guild Mission
Post by: Fairlead on May 05, 2006, 12:57:41 AM
Lindsey,
I have to admit to being very remiss - that in all the deliberations on this topic, I who should have known better, failed to check the Guild Constitutional Rules.  I too took the three mission statements on this site to be correct - they are in fact a precis and not direct from the book.
Nothing changes in my quest to support you at the AGM and to take onboard the comments of the contributors but here - for the record - is how the Rule book is written - and I urge all the contributors to read it carefully.

Rule 2
The object of the Guild shall be the advancement of education by the study of and practice of the art, craft and science of knotting, past and present.  In furtherance of this object but not otherwise the Guild shall have the following powers:
i) To undertake research into all aspects of knotting and to publish the useful results.
ii) To establish and authoritative body for consultation purposes.
iii) To publish a periodical or periodicals and other papers and books about knotcrafts and related subjects.
iv) To form and maintain a library of books, papers, films, photographs and other materials about knotcrafts and related subjects, with a view to making information available to Members of the Guild, and the general public.
v) To fom a collection of knots and knotting and work related crafts.
vi) To encourage the employment of knotcrafts as a manual activity in schools, and as a therapy among the physically handicapped.

As I said, this is just to set the record straight so that nobody is in any doubt about the official line - I will get Mel to change the Mission Statement i.d.c.


Title: Re: Our Guild Mission
Post by: squarerigger on May 06, 2006, 12:43:16 AM
Hi Gordon,

Many thanks for the heads up!  Well, that clarifies one part of the Mission Statement as to why we have three parts to it.  So, for the benefit of all readers and posters, this is what the current Mission probably looks like, if I am correctly interpreting what is in the Rule:

The Mission, or rather, the object of the Guild is "...the advancement of education by the study [of] and practice of the art, craft and science of knotting, past and present..."

That is what we are here for, the advancement of education.  Our object is the advancement of  education by studying and practising the art, craft and science of knotting, past and present?  Now I know it needs to be cleared up!  How do we do that?!

Let's see, there are other questions also; we have the power, as a Guild, to further this object of advancement of education by doing one or all of only six things:

i) To undertake research into all aspects of knotting and to publish the useful results.
ii) To establish an authoritative body for consultation purposes.
iii) To publish a periodical or periodicals and other papers and books about knotcrafts and related subjects.
iv) To form and maintain a library of books, papers, films, photographs and other materials about knotcrafts and related subjects, with a view to making information available to Members of the Guild, and the general public.
v) To form a collection of knots and knotting and work related crafts.
vi) To encourage the employment of knotcrafts as a manual activity in schools, and as a therapy among the physically handicapped.

We may not, as a Guild, then do any of those six things, or anything else, if it does not go to the advancement of education.  How do we know when something is to the advancement of education?  How do we decide ... and when?  This is not clear to me.

Question for Members:  Did you sign up for the advancement of education?

There must be something I have missed, because this does not make sense to me.  Now I really need clarification!  I feel sure that someone will be able to provide the answer and I hope that it can be done soon enough to assuage the tide of comment that we have seen so far.  It is obvious that people are keen to take part in knotting, and to take part in defining knotting (and knots) and to know what the science of knotting really amounts to.  We also have established a library of books, papers, etc. 8)  We have also published a periodical. 8) 8)  How do these facts go to the advancement of education?  Are we speaking of child education, adult education, physical education, or what? :-/  Your thoughts fellow kinkers of cordage, twiddlers of twine and strokers of string?  Where would you go to find out? ???

Lindsey
Title: Re: Our Guild Mission
Post by: Fairlead on May 06, 2006, 01:20:28 AM
I suspect that the wording has something to do with the requirements of the Charities Commission.  Advancement probably started off as 'Promote' but that sounds too commercial for a charity so change it to 'Advancement' - I am sure you get my drift - in the end you get a legal document, that can be twisted to suit the problem of the day, even if it is not good old "Plain English"

Gordon
Title: Re: Our Guild Mission
Post by: Willeke on May 06, 2006, 11:26:50 AM
I read it as 'teach whenever you can, help other people teaching and support the general tries to get the teaching done on a professional basis'.

Yes I did sign up to do that.

(But mostly because this fellow I met said I would be at home with these knottying people, he was right.)

Willeke
Title: Re: Our Guild Mission
Post by: squarerigger on May 06, 2006, 08:38:50 PM
Hi Willeke,

Hmmm!  Teaching = education?  Not my thought, but perhaps I am too literal.  How about:

Teaching is what you do to/with an individual to help educate them and;

Education is what you get from a teacher/educator/instructor/self-study session?

Am I being too literal when I read what is written, that we, the IGKT Members, have the object of advancement of education?  We have as our goal furthering the overall goal of the education profession?  Is that what is being said?

If your (anyone's) desire is to form very practical knots and to form wonderfully intricate knots and it is your great desire to teach others - that is all absolutely great and that advances ONE PART of what we do as a Guild - after all a Guild is many, not one.  So what about those of us, who also signed up to make knots, and who also saw the opportunity for publishing and conducting research about knots, for understanding the science of knots, for helping the handicapped (physically differently-abled) become better abled through knotting, and for art and craft development, not just in the sense of beautiful knots but in objects made with beauty using knots in at least some part?

You have answered the call of the first part, and kudos to you for having done that and for continuing to do that, but how do the other schlubs like me get to work on the OTHER parts?

I did not ask the question as a challenge, but as a question such as you might have had in school - how does the Guild's Mission get answered IN FULL?  If we cannot even find out what the question is, how do we get to answer that call?

An old skipper friend once was testing my ability to get the answers in commanding a vessel, and his favorite response was "What comes before you do that?", by which he wanted to know if I could honestly respond that I had given a complete answer and thought everything through.  That was and is a good mantra for me.  I have carried that with me and I still try to respond in that way, to every opportunity that I get to be responsive.  So, my question has to do with, how completely are we providing for our members?  Have we offered what we do, or just posed a teaser?  If, as a Guild, we have posed the opportunity to prospective members to do something that appeals to them, how do we as a Guild provide that opportunity, or is the opportunity (our Mission Statement) just not there (hot air)?

I said I had a dilemma, and I was right, it is a dilemma - can it be done or can it not?  Do we meet the Mission (whatever it is) or do we not?  It is a simple question and I find myself running in tighter circles trying to find the straight answer.  Willeke, you have helped tremendously to straighten out some part of that for contributors to this forum, a part that I felt I had a reasonable handle on already.  PABPRES said much the same in his response, that we are already meeting our Mission.  So what about the rest of the Mission - is there anything there or is it not there yet?

Maybe I should just shuffle off and have a cup of tea?!  No answer yet, but still trying - very trying!  Thanks for reading.....

Lindsey
Title: Re: Our Guild Mission
Post by: Willeke on May 06, 2006, 09:18:49 PM
Lindsey,
remember an old truth:
Even the longest journey starts with the first step.

So I feel we should walk on while thinking about ways to do the rest.

One way, I have mentioned already, is trying to get a journal started. I read since that one of the problems the commity has is that they do not have a member with experience in publishing accademic papers.
So we need to search for an editor for the Journal who has the needed experience. Wheather it will be one journal or a series of booklets printed in demand and sold for a little more than cost.

At the same time we are looking into teaching.
First children and adults who come to us, but at the same time not forgetting people with special needs.
I think most of us teaching at shows, or just in the center of town, have had people with special needs approaching us.
In my case it were mostly young people who had learning abilities of a much younger child. But I try to keep other disabilities in mind too when I write for my website, however, having never had to teach a blind person I do not know how much (or little) of my explanations would make sense to them.

As a person who has never been to university, nor has interest in research I am not the person to do research but whenever asked a question I can answer I do my best to assist people who do research.
And when the guild is going to publish research papers as booklets I intent to buy them to encourage the guild to go on publishing.

Doing my part in establishing an authoritative body for consultation purposes is as hard.
When aproached I did send the person on to one of the guild members who is able to answer the question, which is my little step in the process.

I have done my part in buying, and will continue to do so, the guild publications. And maybe one day I will be able to have a book of my own published by the Guild.

I also tried to help the guild library by pointing out books they did not already have, but being in an other language country does not always help. (And buying Dutch language books for the guild did not seem vital either.) But I do have my own collection of knotbook which might one day join the guild library.

We are talking about a new set of knotwork to be made for the 25th birthday, and this collection going on show.
(I never realized the guild should have a collecton of knotwork, but now I am reminded I will ask about the collection and how we manage it.)

I did have a good look at all the points again and tought about them.
As you see above, I do take whatever small steps I can and hope the others in the guild do take theirs.

Willeke

PS,
this post is too long, but I could not answer in full and still be compact.
Sorry.
Title: Re: Our Guild Mission
Post by: KnotNow! on May 07, 2006, 12:13:35 AM
Lindsey, I admire your courage in attempting this whole thread about our "Mission".
 As with so many wonderful creations I can't believe that the founding fathers of IGKT could have dreamed how far their child has traveled.
 You ask "Question for Members:  Did you sign up for the advancement of education?".   When I joined I surely was not concerned with IGKT goals and mission statements.  I was just thrilled to find that there was any orginization devoted to what I had though of as a solitary persuit.  I expected to learn a great deal (and well I have) so you may say education was at the root of my signing on.  As I read the back issues of KM and KN I became inspired to try to teach some of my simple skills in print, resulting in 20 or so articles.  Years passed and I finally got to attend a show.  Wow!  Now the teaching phase really became intense.  I thought we'd just put out some of our favorite projects but that turns out to be just the bait.  You hear that same comment "I didn't know there was such an organization.... how do I join?"  Teaching has become a large part of my IGKT interaction.  Then came requests to do stage demonstrations, which lead to the "Fifteen Second Thump Mat" and I had to learn to hold forth with constant patter while making ocean plats and prolong mats and so forth.  That lead to my first posted tutorial on the internet at KHWW.  So to put this in a nutshell:  My whole IGKT experience is very much based in education (mine and others).  I really would need to think if there were a more significant way to advance the body of knowledge than what we collectively do.  Lindsey, your wonderful books are the result of your individual efforts but I wonder if you would have been inspired to write had you never joined the guild?  It will be good fun to see how the guild grows and what new venues open.  Who could have guessed this site would exist.
Title: Re: Our Guild Mission
Post by: squarerigger on May 07, 2006, 12:28:08 AM
Thank you Willeke,

A very earnest and heartfelt reply and well worth reading over again.  Thank you for pointing out that we can indeed do things in small pieces.  Thank you also for pointing out that we can each contribute something, no matter how small we may think it is, for the end result will be as a rope, useful and strong.  Your contributions are indeed very powerful and it would definitely be useful to have a journal, not just of learned papers, but of the everyday acts of our members like you, contributing great benefits to others.

Individually, we have a strong set of members who are acting as they see fit and proper, and they are doing a great job of that.  Think how much more could be achieved and known if we were to act together, like a rope, so that we could harness the synergy of all, pulling together in the same direction, or like a net, gathering the energies together.  Our Council is the guide that is intended to act as our directing force, the unifying body that gets us all to pull together, like so many strands, each different but empowered to do something worthwhile, so that we can achieve great things as a Guild.  It is to the Council that I will now turn, to find what they can provide by way of a consistent, comprehensive, understandable, unifying direction for the many energies that we all represent.

Lindsey
Title: Re: Our Guild Mission
Post by: KC on May 07, 2006, 08:02:02 PM
i came to this site to contribute and take into / from an open pool of knotting knowledge.   Whether wishful thinking or not; it is what i thought the name somehow implied. i must ask, if this is not the place for this, then where is?  Is there some other peoples better suited?  Someplace named better for it?

It is also why in past years i have come here, then wandered off; kinda in dismay.   Those that have been here awhile, probably don't have this outsiders view/ expectation.   But, i think it is more of a common sense expectation, than to just seek to find ornamental knot talk, meetings, sales events etc.  Especially if you seek to grow; i'd think the doors should be opened wider to encompass more, and more folks.

Being new, i've sat back and watched the turbulence, as change from olde comfortable ways is proposed.  All along pretty much 'siding' with Derek, and respecting what he has tried to spearhead and bring about; towards the point that i always thought this place should be anyway.

Peace
Title: Re: Our Guild Mission
Post by: DerekSmith on May 08, 2006, 12:11:17 PM
Lindsey,

For all that I support your innitiative in this thread, I believe 'from the heart' that you are 180 degrees out in your focus for action.

Quote
It is to the Council that I will now turn, to find what they can provide by way of a consistent, comprehensive, understandable, unifying direction for the many energies that we all represent.


You can turn to the Council to hopefully inspire them, you might even join the Council, if that is on your agenda, and add some much needed direct action.  Perhaps you will be able to direct some funding towards the provision of elements which could empower members to contribute to the Guilds Mission (whatever that may be).  You can even sit around a table and flap jaw and make some very important decisions for the rest of us to 'pay attention to'.

And then what?

More hot air, more edicts, more pontification  --  but no change.  No action.  Why?  Because the driving force for action is not at the Council table, it is out here -- it is the contributors.  Members and (like me) non-members all keen to take the field of knotting forward - us, the "Anoraks of Hairy String".

There has been massive interest and energy poured into this thread from more contributors than have posted on any topic for many months.  That energy is going to go to waste by you effectively closing the subject with a passionate "I'm taking our woes to THE COUNCIL, folks -- I may be some time -- Wish me luck"

The passion is here with the contributors and the action is here with the contributors.  For "The Anoraks of Hairy String" the body must lead the head in the sense that the doers must set what they want their Council to do for them.  When the contributors decide on a naming and numbering system, the Council will adopt it for them.  When the contributors set a course of action, the Council will promote it for them.

Why is this the truth?

Because, we "The Anoraks of Hairy String" can either get off our collective arses and start making this Guild what we want it to be, or we can all sit back and leave the Council to 'float a little hot air' and look forward to another 20 years of petrification.

Some  have already started 'Doing' by collecting material using the Wiki - so the rest of us that truely want action - get contributing to the future of knotting in the Wiki at http://igkt.pbwiki.com/  --  sign on with your name, email address and use the password igkt .

The area attracting the most input at the moment is 'Building The Index of Knots'

Alternatively, do nothing and watch your string turn to stone as you wait another 20 years in the hope that 'they' will 'do something'.

Derek Smith
Self confessed "Anorak of Hairy String"
Title: Re: Our Guild Mission
Post by: DerekSmith on May 08, 2006, 12:42:32 PM
To members of the Council who may have been upset by my inference that the Council 'does nothing'.

Please do not waste any of your energies getting upset and letting us all know just how busy you have been.  I do not doubt that there has been much activity behind the scenes, just keeping the boat affloat.  For this you have our thanks.

The post is about 'doing that which has not yet been done' and the stagnation of the last 20 years is proof to that effect.  If your gall has been stired by my critical comments, then please consider for one moment what would best benefit the Guild - having a return kick at me (make you feel better yes - but would it help the Guild?) or paying heed to my words and perhaps taking the lead in developing a 'Knotting Issue' which has tempted you for years, yet you never got round to it because you were too busy with Guild business?

Yes, you (the Council) are all contributors too, so there is no magic 'Council' line preventing you from being part of the ground swell of action that actually does something for a change.  But if you still feel the need for a pop at me - please go ahead - after all, they are only words!!!!!

Derek
Title: Re: Our Guild Mission
Post by: squarerigger on May 08, 2006, 09:52:39 PM
Hi Derek,

Yes, you are right that action is needed and, if you read our Librarian's post you will see that perhaps the web-site does not have a completely correct Mission Statement?  That being the case, I have been beating my head about for nothing so far - better that I had learned this earlier than later, but now I am wiser, and not too much older.  Once I know what the Mission is, then I can start getting it in order.  I want to get the action going and I think that my response time is a pretty good indication of the heartfelt manner in which I believe that this will occur.  You may not be aware that the next Council meeting will be at or shortly after the AGM this month in Shrewsbury.  If nothing is resolved, then I can start taking action elsewhere - nothing of course need prevent my doing that now but, frankly, I have to earn a living and so cannot devote so much of my time rattling around trying to find answers to the wrong questions.  First, I need to find out what it is we are supposed to be doing, which of course includes tying knots (something I have not been able to do much of lately) and then I can put my energies into going along that path instead of trying to fight my way through interminable jungle just to come out in the same place, exhausted and with a new path, destroyed forest behind me, with an easier path that I could have followed with much less effort and time right there aloongside me.

I want to have an easier life, not a harder one and I want to get there with as little effort as I need to expend, unless I feel that this is such a travesty that I cannot stand it and must do something.  The reason I decided to wait is to regain my energy and then forge ahead in the appropriate direction, rather than simply forging ahead with a new path.

This is the 100th post to this thread so I am not wanting in the energy - I just want to spend it appropriately.

Lindsey
Title: Re: Our Guild Mission
Post by: Jimbo on May 15, 2006, 01:06:16 PM
In a forum thread far, far away,
Quote
The names we now have are irrational and non-standard.  The numbering system is as yet undefined for ALL knots, under ALL configurations, and takes no account of putting the knot under tension from different angles and directions and parts - so how do we get to that point?  An extension of ABOK, using at least two types of drawings in tandem might help - the knot loose in a single plane, and then the knot faired, as seen from an orthogonal projection perhaps?  Add a description, using an as-yet undetermined or unagreed-upon lexicon and we might get somewhere.

Yes, please, let us have lots of carefully-checked drawings, even if it means hiring a good artist & teaching them the knots!!

And let there please always be a carefully drawn depiction of the knot in its proper, final form!!!  Not photographs!  Photos of newly discovered knots "in the wild" are hard enough to decipher, the tools for teaching knotting to the future generations should not be.  Please think of these drawings & their associated descriptions, as Ashley did, as the Standard Reference ("Reverence" - thank you Willeke - is a better word) for the Future of Knotting.
Title: Re: Our Guild Mission
Post by: DerekSmith on May 15, 2006, 01:41:13 PM
As this is now 2006 and the age of the TV and the Internet, why not utilise the tools of the age?

Let us utilise animation to show exactly how to tie the knots, then rotate the knot in 3D to let the reader 'see' the final beast.  Lets use voice over to assist in the comprehension and a few shots of the knot in use to drive home when and how to use it (and of course when not to!!)

The technology is here now.  KC is showing us how powerful this tool is.  We have asked the Webmistress for guidelines on the use of Flash in order to comply with regs, but so far there has been no reply - Heads up there Webmistress!!

Perhaps we could even convince cartoon makers to create a new character to teach kidds the value of cord and knots ?

But the best progress is small progress.  That is --  do something now and see how it worked, then move on from there.  Don't try to create the one perfect solution from go - it is not likely to actually make it beyond the drawing board.
Title: Re: Our Guild Mission
Post by: Dan_Lehman on May 16, 2006, 03:33:16 AM
Quote

Yes, please, let us have lots of carefully-checked drawings, even if it means hiring a good artist & teaching them the knots!!

And let there please always be a carefully drawn depiction of the knot in its proper, final form!!!  Not photographs!

Why would drawings--one layer removed from reality--be better than photographs
("the camera doesn't lie")?  Do you see many artists' work in knot books?  
Which one(s) should we follow?

Point is, the knot in its in-use/set form is going to often be ambiguous; it can be
difficult to discern even with images from different sides.  I think that Des Pawson's
Handbook of Knots[/u] did a great service by giving photos (blown up) of anglers knots,
which have typically been shown as mere squiggles (possibly because
few knew what they actually looked like, tied properly--hard to see, etc.!).

Sometimes when I make a knot drawing, I try to capture the final look and yet
have the knot unambiguous, and either cheat a little in showing some parts
that actually aren't visible when set (but which help clarify ...), or numbering the
segments in sequence (SPart = 1, ...) so the viewer can follow the flow of the rope
through the knot.

It helps in photos to choose the materials for display of the knot--doN'T use the
fancy patterned kernmantle rope (think :  camouflage), but solid colors!  Don't
show fishing knots in kernmantle!  Etc..  Publishers seem to want coffee-table
books for people not really interested in knots.   ... cordage on the chess set:
yes, the infamous Dbl.Checkmate Hitch, the Rank&File Binder.   geesh

Nautile presented some couple of sets of photographed knots from explorations
on a beach & by the Seine; I'd hate to have had to sketch all of those, keeping
so faithfully to reality (though I'm accustomed to quick sketches for myself (which
sometimes, alas, I look at and wonder "What ... ?!!?")).

--dl*
====
Title: Re: Our Guild Mission
Post by: squarerigger on May 16, 2006, 04:04:30 AM
Thank you Derek,

As for the use of computer-aided animation in general, the people who really want to learn should be able to learn where they are when learning - in a remote camp, perhaps, or maybe at sea or even in a classroom setting such as at the pierhead with a crowd of onlookers?  Certainly there is a place for the use of computer-aided teaching via wireless laptop or notebook and for downloading animated files onto a Blackberry or something similar, but not everyone can afford that, nor do they always have ready access, so perhaps electronic arts should not be the only method of recording the information?  Definitely that is one avenue, but let us all hope it is not a cul-de-sac!

There was a CD produced in California of an animated figure tying knots - cartoonlike and interesting, but only a few knots and that took about six months to produce - where is the financial incentive to do that going to come from?  As a business, that is not much return for the expenditure.  Despite what Dan says, I think Ashley had the right idea.  Yes, the drawings need improvement, but put drawings with an effective teacher and some written phrasing that helps the tier to remember how to do it, perhaps even adding some photos to help the learner to relate to the knot/bend/hitch/splice/braid/sinnet in its final and loaded form and I think you have a winner...

But that's just my opinion - I could be wrong.

Now, to get back to the Mission - does any one know what went on this weekend at Shrewsbury?  Inquiring minds need to know! ???

SquareRigger
Title: Re: Our Guild Mission
Post by: Dan_Lehman on May 17, 2006, 10:16:36 AM
Quote
Despite what Dan says, I think Ashley had the right idea.  Yes, the drawings need improvement, but ...

"Despite ... " ??  Recall that my response was mainly opposed to Jimbo's plea
for not using photos for the final, set knot!  --the most demanding drawing
task.
But do you think that Layhands & Grogano's sites would be better or even as good
with drawings?  Again, I challenged people to point to what they thought were
good presentations, in current documentation.  I just did so (though I'm still
taking shots at Grogano's images for various points :) ).  I have some of my own
drawings on the Bowline thread--the Locktight II & Lehman8 are done in somewhat
exploded form, but with an eye to giving good indication of the set form; a sort of
photo (p.copy) accompanies the latter (but that is NOT a good quality image!).

Quote
Now, to get back to the Mission - does any one know what went on this weekend at Shrewsbury?

Ah-uh, no hijacking the thread!

--dl*
====
Title: Re: Our Guild Mission
Post by: KnotMe on May 17, 2006, 10:54:10 AM
Part of the problem is that photos aren't always better.  Constantini's (sp?) book was a good example of that.  The cord choice was poor and the resulting photos were not clear illustrations.  Sometimes a photo is just what you need, and sometimes the contrast and emphasis that can be produced by an illustration is the only thing that works.  

Even worse for people who are trying to plan is that sometimes an illustration may work for some people and not others.  Everyone learns differently, everyone sees differently.  The best you can do is provide as many different resources to people as you can and let them search amongst them to find what works for them.
Title: Re: Our Guild Mission
Post by: DerekSmith on May 17, 2006, 11:43:08 AM
Yes, sometimes photos are poor, but I generally believe that this is due to lack of the photographers technique, rather than a failing of the techninique of photography.  Your own photos Carol and those of Dave Root are a testament to the fact that photography has the potential to well exceed the likely drawing skills of all but a few.

Perhaps what is needed is a little guidance from the like of yourself and Dave to give the rest of us a chance to replicate your results.

However, I would agree that there is a place for line diagrams, and that is in the embellishment of good photos by the addition of a line trace to indicate the path the cord will take in the making of the knot as utilised in a number of Dave Roots illustrations in his Knot Index site.  If the Guild decides to produce its own 'Master Index', then perhaps it should ask these two individuals to formulate a template for image production, covering issues they have found to be important in the creation of good images.

Cord selection,
Background contrast,
Lighting type and direction,
Image size and resolution,
Compression type and extent,
.......

I do not believe in enforced conformity, but I do believe in shareing the best knowledge and skills available.
Title: Re: Our Guild Mission
Post by: Jimbo on May 18, 2006, 09:00:05 PM
Quote
As this is now 2006 and the age of the TV and the Internet, why not utilise the tools of the age?

No problem there.  Can we agree to use "the tools of the age" (including an entire box of "old" tools) in an appropriate manner, with primary focus remaining on the GOAL, not the ego of the presenter of the information??  That might smooth a few ruffled feathers...

Quote
Let us utilise animation to show exactly how to tie the knots, then rotate the knot in 3D to let the reader 'see' the final beast.  Lets use voice over to assist in the comprehension and a few shots of the knot in use to drive home when and how to use it (and of course when not to!!)

Animation is not information.  Even CWA's cute little "voice-overs" (meaning the folksy paragraphs not specifically describing ABOK#xxx) don't really add much information, just entertainment.

For a case in point, look at Grogno for yourself.  You need look no further than his Bowline.  Once you get past the "gee whiz" (not to cross streams with a "haw whiz"  ;) ) factor, how useful is it, really, to see an animated rendition of the "Rabbit & Tree" method for tying a Bowline?  Please, feel free to tell us all where to find some beautiful photo-animated graphics of the PABPRES-level "flippy-twist" method of Bowline tying!  I'll wait...

Animation is not information.  Computer technology is not as ubiquitous as Bill Gates would like for you to believe.  Learning requires a teacher, a student, and a method for exchanging ideas.  "What method" is the question at hand (for those not "reading back") and the more broadly accessible that method is, the more likely its influence will be broadly felt.  IMO, taking a lot of time shooting enough photos to make a valid static image -- with enough detail to be useful in teaching -- and that's nevermind the multiplied number required to animate the picture -- is great if the activity pleases you, but for teaching knots, 2 active, open minds and a piece of string is still the best we have.  Yes, Grogno's site is fun to watch, if you have the time.

For teaching knots, two active, open minds and a piece of string are the best tools we have.

Quote
The technology is here now.

Non sequitur.  The technology is NOT "here" at the forecastle, nor "here" on the docks, nor "here" in the branches of the trees outside.  How, pray tell, will we spread our high-tech, photo-realistic, animated knot-knowledge in this fashion without laptops & battery chargers & expensive insurance to cover the inevitable "Ooops, I forgot to put a lanyard on my PC!" claims?

It's one thing to slog your way through a method illustrated by animated photographs, but I can put in an entire Bowline between the frames of Grogno's animation, and by the time the animation has run once, my niece has seen the "PABPRES" method 8 times & can do it "the PABPRES way" & now Grogno's "rabbit & tree" method is of no use to her whatsoever.  Wonderful.  Thanks for all the fish.

Quote
KC is showing us how powerful this tool is.  We have asked the Webmistress for guidelines on the use of Flash in order to comply with regs, but so far there has been no reply - Heads up there Webmistress!!

No, KC (et al.) are telling us now powerful this virtual tool is!!  And I'm not disagreeing!!!  But I'm also not seeing much "power" in "the real world" where I spend most of my time, and where I tie (and teach) ALL my knots!

Quote
Perhaps we could even convince cartoon makers to create a new character to teach kidds the value of cord and knots ?

Like "Jasper the Mule (http://www.jasperthemule.com/)" who's drawn to look exactly like a Donkey?  Like the (demonstrably incorrect) cartoon handouts the Game Wardens in my State use because they don't have the "wetware" to understand the actual Law itself?  Like the cartoon interface on Windows XP?  Okay, I know you were joking.  I hope...

Quote
Don't try to create the one perfect solution from go - it is not likely to actually make it beyond the drawing board.

I agree completely!!!  See, I'm not as antagonistic as I seem sometimes!  But I'm actually doing the work (promoting the art, craft & science; undertaking research; barking loudly to herd "you people" into implementing Mission Initiative III --  "M-I-III"...), and I can't afford the "horse" to carry this new technology "out in the paddock" where I need it.

At the risk of overflowing this post, the Very Best tool I've found after the piece of string in my pocket is a deck of Tarot-sized "flash cards" depicting a knot per card, something like a couple dozen cards.  The whole deck fits in my pocket, the cards are waterproof, and the box holds a bit of string & a wee dowel.  Let's see Macromedia beat that!

(PS: I'm not picking on Grogno!!  For the people I meet who want animated tutelage, his and the Ropeworks (http://www.ropeworks.biz/text/arch.html#ANIMATED) animations are the only places I send them.)
Title: Re: Our Guild Mission
Post by: Jimbo on May 18, 2006, 09:46:16 PM
Quote
"Despite ... " ??  Recall that my response was mainly opposed to Jimbo's plea for not using photos for the final, set knot!  --the most demanding drawing task.


Okay, first of all, I didn't object to photos, just the use of a picture as "the final reverence".  I enjoy G. Budwort's Complete Photographs, with their quaint "settings" of salty souvenirs & such, but I'd hardly expect a "Rabbit & Tree" -level tyer to fully appreciate the subtlties of (e.g.) the "LH Bowline" vis-a-vis a "normal" Bowline, just from pix.

As someone who has actively studied the learning & teaching processes (not to mention Data Communications) for several decades, I don't appreciate seeing the "giants" upon whose shoulders I stand denigrated by egos with agendae who know them not.

Of course, as always, I will gladly sacrifice my life to assure your right to denigrate anyone whom you choose!!

But I'm a tough sell.  I just don't "just believe it" when someone asserts something as if it were fact, without first checking to make sure it really is a "fact", not just a regurgitation of "cultural prejudice".  It's amazing how often this happens.  Examples:
Fact: Today is Thursday.
Cultural Prejudice" "Freedom of Speech doesn't mean you're free to say whatever you want."
Cultural Prejudice: "The Bowline is the King of Knots"
Fact: The Bowline will untie itself if you don't set it right.

Quote
But do you think that Layhands & Grogano's sites would be better or even as good  with drawings?

Uh...

Yes.

Vastly, indescribably Better.

But not if it meant they removed the pixtures!!!

Quote
I challenged people to point to what they thought were  good presentations, in current documentation.

I'd like to see that myself!!!  Hellooo???  Are you listening, IGKT???  "M-I-III"??

Quote
I have some of my own
drawings on the Bowline thread--the Locktight II & Lehman8 are done in somewhat  exploded form, but with an eye to giving good indication of the set form; a sort of photo (p.copy) accompanies the latter (but that is NOT a good quality image!).

From your own fingers...

You Dan_Lehman, have just shot yourself in the foot over this one!!  Your own drawing is one of the best knot drawings I've ever seen!!!!  I especially liked the little annotations you added to allow us to more effectively describe & discuss its aspects, qualities & attributes!!  But the picture that accompanies it is "lubberly and not to be countenanced"!!!  Not "proof", but certainly "evidence for the Defense" as to the power of CAREFULLY DRAWN drawings over most photographs.

And I'll even "twist the knife" by beating you over the head with Clifford Ashley's own words:
"...[D]rawings also have certain definite advantages over photographs."
    ~ABOK, p9
"...[F]or any shortcoming [...] an author should hold himself responsible."
    ibid.

So, at the risk of abusing my "freedom", I'd like to take this opportunity to weigh in my vote for:

"ALL THE ABOVE", if that's what it takes to tie more knots better & teach same to all who ask to learn.

Sho 'nuff!
Title: Re: Our Guild Mission
Post by: Jimbo on May 18, 2006, 11:01:07 PM
Beg pardon, Dan, not that you "deserve" it, but you toss up the softballs, I just smack 'em into the field:
Quote
("the camera doesn't lie")

If you really believe that, tell me why there are so many UFO photographs?  Why are there so many photographs of Ghosts, Gods, Saviors & their Mothers and other "invisible friends"??  If you want, I'd be glad to give you an "unretouched photo" of your own bedroom window, with a properly-exhibited ghost of your own.  It's not obvious, or it'd be "debunked" by now, but it's not hard to do either.  A film camera can be made to "lie", especially if one takes the time to build their own bellows camera!

One thing the camera really does not do is to eliminate the texture(s) and color(s) of the cordage being photographed.  It also does not peer into the depths of a bulky knot to show some important aspect "inside".  It also does not add nifty little annotations to help discuss the aspects & attributes that might be important.

Show me a photograph of a Short Splice fully opened.  CWA drew it, over a half century ago.  On that note...

Quote
Do you see many artists' work in knot books?

I admire your nerve, making a bold splash like that in front of the "Clifford Ashley Appreciation Society"!!!

So, at the risk of overstating the obvious, "no, not 'many', just one".
 
Quote
Which one(s) should we follow?

The one which can be proven correct, by pragmatic, peer-reviewed, unambiguous, apolitical, rigorous examination in The Real World.  Duh.

Quote
Point is, the knot in its in-use/set form is going to often be ambiguous; it can be difficult to discern even with images from different sides.

That's the "standard" argument against pixtures, dude!  As DaveRoot's "Granny Myrtle's Loopknot" -- one of the simplest forms I can find -- proves concisely.  Look how well DaveRoot photo-documented it, and yet how difficult it was for the rest of us to "learn", and we're (supposed to be) the "experts"!!

Quote
I think that Des Pawson's Handbook of Knots[/u] did a great service by giving photos (blown up) of anglers knots, which have typically been shown as mere squiggles (possibly because few knew what they actually looked like, tied properly--hard to see, etc.!).

I condur, but only because there are already a zillion & six different "typically" drawn renditions of them all, leaving photos as the only remaining "undiscovered country" for DP to explore.  And I still believe his artistic skill plus his knotting skill are the only contributing factors to the success of his photography.

Quote
Sometimes when I make a knot drawing, I try to capture the final look and yet have the knot unambiguous, and either cheat a little in showing some parts that actually aren't visible when set (but which help clarify ...), or numbering the segments in sequence (SPart = 1, ...) so the viewer can follow the flow of the rope through the knot.

And how, pray tell, do you propose we accomplish all that with photographs??  Or are you, like our late Nautile, merely "playing devil's advocate" to make us all realize the folly of either the "photo only" camp or their "drawings only" counterparts?

Quote
It helps in photos ...   geesh

All that was quite correct and quite irrelevant to a knot-drawer.

Quote
Nautile presented some couple of sets of photographed knots from explorations on a beach & by the Seine; I'd hate to have had to sketch all of those

As would anyone!!  And why would a sketch be required of a field discovery, unless the discoverer lacked a camera??

We're "blurring the lines" here between "input" "output" and the "reverence" in between.  When you discover an odd kink in a cord, you should capture it for the rest of us using whatever means you have at your disposal.  And you should share it with the rest of us (speech-police aboral pores notwithstanding) in like fashion -- any way you can!!

But when the "Reference Standard" for all knots is composed, I can guarantee you its value will be severely diminished by every single effort made to suppress any form of expression (verbal, artistic, photographic, etc.) at all, likewise any contribution made by even "non-members".  The IGKT is dancing on the edge of nothingness, IRL, unless all the "wet blankets" are loaded up with smallpox & given to the Indians as God intended.

Jimbo still says that the only hope for success is to incorporate all input from all sources, even the one(s) you find "offensive" or "outcast" in any way.  Drawings are not enough, pictures are not enough, text is not enough, and the undercurrent, in this forum, of "exclusivity" will wash the whole rig over the taffrail, and the World will soon forget what the acronym "IGKT" stood for.

[/bark]
Title: Re: Our Guild Mission
Post by: Dan_Lehman on May 19, 2006, 08:25:22 AM
Quote
Part of the problem is that photos aren't always better.  Constantini's (sp?) book was a good example of that.  The cord choice was poor and

As I noted previously, one can do stupid things with a camera (as well as with
a pen or drawing software, or, in Co[n]stantino's case, the keyboard).  This isn't
an argument relevant to the issue:  one can chose cords that contrast with any
other objects/cords in use and the background, just as one could choose such colors
for illustration by other means.

Since you've mentioned Maria's book, I'll vent over that too typical situation for
knots books:  written by a contracted author devoid of knot knowledge; copied from
a few other knots books (THIS is the typical research one sees!).  I esp. loved
her botching of Budworth's Complete Book of Knots[/u] (also Ultimate) which read
"The Double Bowline [ah, touching another thread here, too!] is stronger than the
Bowline (about 70-75%), and ..." which Maria paraphragiarized as "is 70% stronger
than the Bowline" (!!--would make it about 104% tensile).  (And yet when they got
to giving a bibliography for a later issue, not a single one of GB's books is listed!)

Same thing re Jimbo's point on the Dbl.X photo:  drawing it in the same angles
would be no better (numbering can be Photoshop'd if you want).
And no I didn't shoot myself in the foot in ref. to my images, which I also anticipated
by pointing out that the pseudo "photo" was a photocopy re-presented on-line
(heck, might've been a photocopy of a photocopy, but that usually takes the image
to Hades in a hurry!).
.:.  Pretty much the best way to show a knot set /in-use is by camera, and digital
cameras make the connection from generation to on-line presentation; Photoshop
further aids their use (I understand, not yet from experience).

Quote
One thing the camera really does not do is to eliminate the texture(s) and color(s) of the cordage being photographed.  It also does not peer into the depths of a bulky knot to show some important aspect "inside".

Again, again, (1) one can choose the object in the photo about as well as for some
drawing, and the point was to have a photo of some actual, set knots--not for all
of the intermediate steps of construction.

Quote
You need look no further than his Bowline.  Once you get past the "gee whiz" (not to cross streams with a "haw whiz"   ) factor, how useful is it, really, to see an animated rendition of the "Rabbit & Tree" method for tying a Bowline?  Please, feel free to tell us all where to find some beautiful photo-animated graphics of the PABPRES-level "flippy-twist" method of Bowline tying!  I'll wait...

... for Godot?
If you "look no further" you'll see no further; otherwise, you should try his
One-Handed animation--plenty flippy twistiny enuff for PABPRES or anyone.
(But his confusion of HH.s w/Overhands reveals itself at the end--another *bug*
to be cleaned up.)  But it is better to flippy twist in the opposite way, so that the
Bowline shows its opp. face on the finish, IF there's some further tying to do, such
as making any of the secured Bwl.s I presented.

But all such concerns should be able to be put to rest if the work gets good critical
review (something lacking too often ... ).

--dl*
====
Title: Re: Our Guild Mission
Post by: squarerigger on May 19, 2006, 07:27:44 PM
Hello Dan L and Hello Jimbo,

Boy, when you two go at each other you pull no punches do you?  Out of the many diatribes between you it looks like we have a consensus that photos and drawings are both good, particularly when carefully done by someone who (would that be Dan or Jimbo?) is fully aware of all the nice and naughty things about knots that should/could/must be included about one or other knot. ;D

OK already!  There is definitely a level of passion about the subject of the Guild's Mission that I wanted to know about and, in my ignorance (pardon me for having tried to bring this back on topic Dan!) I referred to the Guild Mission discussion in England (Shrewsbury) and asked if anyone knew about it.  I was smartly told to get back on topic (the Guild Mission) and so now I am:

What about the Mission?

There seems to be agreement that we should have a Mission of some sort, yes? :)
That Mission needs to reflect what we do, yes? :)
We educate people about knots, yes? :)
We educate using all appropriate means, yes? ;)
We observe how knots are used, yes? :D
We record our collective observations, yes? :)
We try to analyze our records, yes? :D
We publish something that tells others what we have recorded, yes? ;D
Did I miss something?

OK, that's enough of the agreement - what about possible disagreements? ???
Should we educate the public and ourselves about ropes and ropemaking as well (that is a question that has not yet been addressed in this thread)? :-[
Should we seek funding (possible donation to our charity for training/educational classes +/- possible funding body +/- do part of our dues go to fund knotting projects defined by whomever)? :P
What will our records look like (electronic +/- paper +/- art +/- scientific +/- distributed +/- etc.,)? :o

SIGH!  And I thought we were coming to a conclusion.... :'(

SquareRigger

Title: Re: Our Guild Mission
Post by: Fairlead on May 19, 2006, 09:09:44 PM
Lindsey,
Do you bake bread without knowing that you use flour, water and yeast ? And that depending on which flour, water and yeast you use will determine the type of bread and in some cases those who can and cannot eat it.  So too I think we should know as much about the materials with which we tie our knots - or we could be in trouble.  Therefore I think we should learn and teach ropes and ropemaking.  
One of my talks to 'groups' 'clubs' and 'meetings' is based almost entirely on ropes and rope making - with a few knots introduced here and there for completeness.
Here in the UK, I can almost guarantee that where an IGKT member(s) attend shows, festivals, fetes etc that there will be a rope making machine of some sort.  Firstly it is a good audience puller (action going on), the kids love to turn the handle or walk the dolly - they learn something (as do many of their parents!) and go away clutching a piece of rope to tie knots in or to skip with - delighted with what THEY have made.  Isn't this what we are all about?  Many of our members contribute to the Ropemaking forums too.
Gordon  
PS - I HOPE to get a rope braiding machine set up and working at the 2007 meeting in Fareham
Title: Re: Our Guild Mission
Post by: squarerigger on May 19, 2006, 11:11:30 PM
Thanks Gordon,

Great analogy - not just from the point of view of what goes into making the rope twisted or braided, but also what goes into the actual fibers that are used to make the rope with.  I take a clutch or sheaf of fibers with me and leave them on the table for people to ask about or for me to tell them about, so that kids especially get the idea that the ropes don't get picked from trees ready-made!  I also use a stick to twirl a piece of rope (getting kids to do that in the US you are asking for a lawsuit!)and the leather over the thigh to demonstrate how to make rope the Native American way (and presumably other parts of the world too) so that kids get the idea of just how difficult it was to get rope when you couldn't just go to the store!  Next, I'll have to think about a braiding machine in addition to a spinning machine - hmmm?

Thanks for the feedback!

Lindsey