International Guild of Knot Tyers Forum

General => Practical Knots => Topic started by: Transminator on June 01, 2011, 03:42:41 PM

Title: Surrey Six Challenge
Post by: Transminator on June 01, 2011, 03:42:41 PM
Quote from the Surrey Branch: "Now, you ALL have an opportunity to better our Six. I challenge YOU to come up with six knots for general purposes for use in modern rope which may, or may not, include some of "The Surrey Six"."

We'd have to agree on ONE total number of knots (e.g., 6 knots total).  You can't cheat and have alternatives, add-ons or whatever.  You also can't make assumptions like "Well, I showed the customer the Buntline, so now the customer knows the Clove Hitch and the Half Hitch."  No, you showed the customer the Buntline, but did NOT teach the customer the Clove Hitch or the Half Hitch by themselves.  You CAN teach the student various uses of the Buntline.  Six knots are all you get, and six is probably the maximum number of knots you could teach to the average, disinterested "customer".  (Five is even stretching it.)  Then, each person here explains their reasoning behind their system of knots for pure beginners.

It's easy to criticize the Surrey Six, but let's see others come up with a system of six knots for a disinterested customer who knows nearly nothing about knots.  This calls for a new thread so the discussion is focused...
So here we go. A new thread just for this purpose.

Things to consider:
What are the most common applications and scenarios the 6 knots should cover?
In my opinion they should be useful for everyday life (household,camping etc.) but also for extreme scenarios (survival).
You might need to catch animals/fish, put up a tent, tie a parcel, bundle something up, tie things together. You may need to clime trees, abseil, build a hut. your rope supply is probably limited in a survival scenario, so you need knots that can be untied and are easy on the rope.
In every day life you probably use a bend and a binder most. You might need to tow a car, drag something heavy.  
Considering this we need:

A fixed loop, a bend, a binder, a hitch, probably a noose, a fishing knot, a friction hitch.
Do we need a stopper? Wouldn't an overhand knot be sufficient? Well, the surrey six solves that problem by using the figure eight, which is multi-purpose.
A knot that needs a stopper for security should be replaced by a different knot that doesn't.

Here my first tentative list:

1. Zeppelin loop (secure fixed loop, can be easily untied, easy to tie and remember (imo), can be used as hitch (similar to figure 8 of the surrey six), does not need any additional locking mechanism for critical use> abseiling, towing)
2. Zeppelin bend (secure, easily tied and untied, use the same method for loop and bend, works well for different rope sizes too, but in doubt, tuck thinner end twice or use two interlocked zeppelin loops instead)
3. Timber hitch (very simple, surprisingly secure, can be tied under load (especially in combination with a round turn), easily untied and has some resistance for lengthwise pull as well, stopper> tie timber hitch without an object)
4. constrictor (binder, can be used as a makeshift lashing and whipping, alternative hitch, use the double constrictor for heavy duty)
5. uni knot (universal fishing knot, noose, bend)
6. gripping sailor's hitch (friction hitch, put the zeppelin loop at the working end and you can use it for climbing ropes/trees, as tool for putting poles in and out of the ground...)

p.s.: It really hurts to omit so many clever and useful knots such as the butterfly loop etc. But we are talking bare essentials here and if somebody really needs a midline loop, he can tie an overhand not on the bight. I think we all agree that the overhand knot is a knot that everybody knows and thus does not need to occupy any of the 6 available slots and a round turn is also a universal concept (also used in the surrey six) and not really a knot. They also "cheated" by adding the double sheet bend for free, therefore I do the same for the constrictor.

p.p.s: show how to use the available knots as a truckers hitch, which is not really a hitch but a system to apply tension to a rope (and thus tie something down). The truckers hitch can be tied off with the timber hitch (instead of half hitches).
Title: Re: Surrey Six Challenge
Post by: Sweeney on June 01, 2011, 06:58:02 PM
I think this is trying too hard to be all things to all people. I favour 6 knots aimed at not just the beginner but set in groups of 6, for example the uni knot is part of a "fisherman's 6" (and some knots would be common to more than one group) - anyone who is not an angler would find this taking up a valuable place. I would apart from that favour including the perfection loop rather than the Zeppelin loop (which is difficult for a beginner to tie) in a "domestic 6" and adding a mid-line loop such as the butterfly or farmer's loop (both are easily tied around the hand). The pile hitch deserves consideration because it is so simple and as such encouraging to try more complex knots. Personally I prefer the strangle knot to the constrictor because it sits more neatly but that is just personal preference - the constrictor is worthy of inclusion in any group. People who have a need for knots such as climbers and sailors are not really our target audience - they need knots from the off. In order to attract an audience the groups might start with something like:

Domestic use around the home & garden
Camping and outdoor pursuits
Fishing (unlike climbing & sailing training is not a requirement before you start)
On the road (eg towing, getting stuck, fastening a load)

General knot books tend to be ordered by knot type (hitches, bends etc) when a beginner would more likely look for a knot suited to their situation (do they know what a "bend" is - esp having seen the fisherman's bend!) hence the idea of groups of say 6.

Barry

Title: Re: Surrey Six Challenge
Post by: Hrungnir on June 01, 2011, 07:36:06 PM
1. Alpine Butterfly Bend Loop - a fixed, secure end loop, which won't jam.  http://davidmdelaney.com/alpine-butterfly-loop/Alpine-butterfly-bend-loop.html
2. Alpine Butterfly Bend - an easy to tie, secure bend which won't jam. I think this is a good choice, as we already know the tying method and structure of the ABBL.
3. Alpine Butterfly Loop - identical structure as the two other knots. The tying method is identical to and has all the strengths as the Alpine Butterfly Bend. The loop is secure and can be loaded in either direction. The user can make several Alpine Butterfly Loops on a rope and use it as a ladder. The knot can be used as a rope shortener and to isolate damaged rope - working just like the bend. The user now has all the tools to learn the truckers hitch, poldo tackle and the versatackle at a later point if needed. The user is also a tiny step away from learning multi loops.
4. Reef Knot - weak binder which is difficult to get tight and  will sometimes work loose. However, there's probably no better option for first aid tasks, like binding a bandage. Helpful knot to tie the sweater around the waist or a bandana on the head. To close packages and bags.
5. Double Pile Hitch - a god middle hitch and end hitch. The performance on lengthwise pulls is excellent.
6. Tensionless Hitch - teaches the power of roundturns to make a secure hitch. Finnish the roundturns off with Two Half Hitches.

Note: If the similarities between the three Alpine Butterflies (identical knot structures, identical tying methods, works in the same manner) allows me to call it two knots instead of three, I'll put in a stronger binder as the sixth knot. Corned Beef & Salt Pork Knot would be my choice, as the knot doesn't have to be pressed against the object - unlike the constrictor.
Title: Re: Surrey Six Challenge
Post by: Dan_Lehman on June 01, 2011, 08:25:27 PM
1. Alpine Butterfly Bend Loop - a fixed, secure end loop, which won't jam.  http://davidmdelaney.com/alpine-butterfly-loop/Alpine-butterfly-bend-loop.html
2. Alpine Butterfly Bend - an easy to tie, secure bend which won't jam. I think this is a good choice, as we already know the tying method and structure of the ABBL.
3. Alpine Butterfly Loop - identical structure as the two other knots. The tying method is identical to and has all the strengths as the Alpine Butterfly Bend. The loop is secure and can be loaded in either direction. The user can make several Alpine Butterfly Loops on a rope and use it as a ladder. The knot can be used as a rope shortener and to isolate damaged rope - working just like the bend. The user now has all the tools to learn the truckers hitch, poldo tackle and the versatackle at a later point if needed. The user is also a tiny step away from learning multi loops.

...

Note: If the similarities between the three Alpine Butterflies (identical knot structures, identical tying methods, works in the same manner) allows me to call it two knots instead of three, I'll put in a stronger binder as the sixth knot. Corned Beef & Salt Pork Knot would be my choice, as the knot doesn't have to be pressed against the object - unlike the constrictor.

You need to look at these knots more closely --they are hardly
identical.  They also allow variations in dressing such as it took
some lonnnng discussion on this forum to drive home for Ashley's
bend #1452
(!)  .  (And they're hardy the sort of knots one
would want to be trying to tie in really small stuff.)


--dl*
====
Title: Re: Surrey Six Challenge
Post by: Hrungnir on June 01, 2011, 08:56:24 PM
You need to look at these knots more closely --they are hardly
identical.  They also allow variations in dressing such as it took
some lonnnng discussion on this forum to drive home for Ashley's
bend #1452
(!)  (And they're hardy the sort of knots one
would want to be trying to tie in really small stuff.)
Perhaps there's something wrong with my eyes, but I can't tell the difference from the backside and frontside of any of these knots, no matter how hard I try! I hope you aren't referring to the obvious fact that the Alpine Butterfly Bend isn't a loop?

My dressings for these knots are also identical. I can't give an answer to how other people dresses these knots.

Edit: I'm able to tie these knots in twine made of hemp. I have to use sewing thread if I'm going to tie the knots in anything more "small stuff" than this.
Title: Re: Surrey Six Challenge
Post by: knot4u on June 01, 2011, 11:59:31 PM
1.  Sheet Bend
2.  Bowline
3.  Reef
4.  Figure 8
5.  Roundturn and Three Half Hitches
6.  Bight Slip (Yes, I'm using a precious slot for this so I don't cheat.)

That would be my six if I were teaching an average, disinterested "customer".  It could change if there's something I'm not considering.  Maybe you guys could ask questions and try to prove why this list sucks.  I'm open to improving the list.  If you're wondering, I just noticed after making this list that it's similar to the Surrey Six.
Title: Re: Surrey Six Challenge
Post by: Hrungnir on June 02, 2011, 12:11:32 AM
You need to look at these knots more closely --they are hardly
identical. 

Bend Loop at the top, Bend at the left and Loop to the right
(http://bildr.no/thumb/895909.jpeg) (http://bildr.no/view/895909)


Bend Loop at the top, Loop to the left and Bend to the right
(http://bildr.no/thumb/895910.jpeg) (http://bildr.no/view/895910)

As far as I can see, I will end up with three identical bends if I cut the loops....
Title: Re: Surrey Six Challenge
Post by: Transminator on June 02, 2011, 02:18:43 PM
1. Alpine Butterfly Bend Loop - a fixed, secure end loop, which won't jam.  
2. Alpine Butterfly Bend - an easy to tie, secure bend which won't jam. I think this is a good choice, as we already know the tying method and structure of the ABBL.
3. Alpine Butterfly Loop - identical structure as the two other knots. The tying method is identical to and has all the strengths as the Alpine Butterfly Bend. The loop is secure and can be loaded in either direction. The user can make several Alpine Butterfly Loops on a rope and use it as a ladder. The knot can be used as a rope shortener and to isolate damaged rope - working just like the bend. The user now has all the tools to learn the truckers hitch, poldo tackle and the versatackle at a later point if needed. The user is also a tiny step away from learning multi loops.
4. Reef Knot - weak binder which is difficult to get tight and  will sometimes work loose. However, there's probably no better option for first aid tasks, like binding a bandage. Helpful knot to tie the sweater around the waist or a bandana on the head. To close packages and bags.
5. Double Pile Hitch - a god middle hitch and end hitch. The performance on lengthwise pulls is excellent.
6. Tensionless Hitch - teaches the power of roundturns to make a secure hitch. Finnish the roundturns off with Two Half Hitches.
Note: If the similarities between the three Alpine Butterflies (identical knot structures, identical tying methods, works in the same manner) allows me to call it two knots instead of three, I'll put in a stronger binder as the sixth knot. Corned Beef & Salt Pork Knot would be my choice, as the knot doesn't have to be pressed against the object - unlike the constrictor.

Regarding:
1. > I find that one fiendishly difficult to tie, remember and dress correctly.
2. > The tying method differs a lot, at least for me. the bend and loop, yes, but not the butterfly bend loop. The end structure and dressing is the same, yes, but getting there is a different matter.
3. > I thought long about whether or not putting the butterfly loop in but eventually decided against it, because: you hardly ever need a midline loop (I think) but if you do, you can help yourself with an overhand on the bight. Therefore I did not want to use a precious slot for a midline loop.
Multiple loops: again, I never really had the need for one and the poldo tackle is useless.
4. > I personally would not want to waste a precious slot for it. you pointed out the shortcomings yourself.
5. > though the pile hitch is good, it is difficult to tie (and remember how to) without excess to the end of the object. If you want to tie it around a tree, you already have a problem.
Corned Beef & Salt Pork Knot> this is another knot I find rather cumbersome to tie and remember and you can't use it for much else.

@ Barry
I know where you are coming from but the task is to find 6 and only 6 that get you far for almost any scenario. The 4 groups you suggested already give you potentially 24 different knots.

@knot4u
I decided against the sheet bend because it is not secure enough. I picked the zeppelin because it is secure enough to join ropes I intend to use for abseiling if needs be. The same applies to the bowline. I love the bowline and it is very quickly tied and my choice for almost all cases I need a fixed loop, but again I needed to consider critical use and there you need a backup (be it an extra tuck (double bight bowline, yosemite) or a stopper (strangle knot)).
The reef for me is too week as a binder and I can't use it for much else. The constrictor is more versatile.
I decided against the figure 8 because it is prone to jam, though versatile, I don't need its versatility. I don't need it as a hitch, as I have a hitch already in the list or can use the zeppelin in the same way. I don't need it as a bend, as I have the zeppelin (that is another reason I picked the zeppelin loop, I tie it the same way I tie the bend and is thus easy to remember). I don't need the figure 8 as stopper, the loop is strong, but more difficult to tie around an object.
I don't find a bight slip so important and I certainly would not use a slot for it. I tried to use knots that can be untied without needing a slip instead.

Regarding my own list: I tried it yesterday and it is not easy to use a timber hitch to tie off a trucker without loosing tension. So I might consider using a slot for the half hitch but then again with the available knots a versatacklle is no problem.



Title: Re: Surrey Six Challenge
Post by: knot4u on June 02, 2011, 05:31:36 PM
Just so this thread doesn't get out of hand like the other thread, the six knots are for the "average, disinterested customer" as far as I understand the original post.  We have plenty of "Favorite Knots" threads.  The focus here is a bit different.  I'm assuming people who have declared they go climbing, rappelling/abseiling or other similar activities, typically don't fall into the category of average, disinterested customer.  I'm not even partially suggesting the knots on my list are suitable for life-critical activities.  Assume that you MAY DIE if you use any of my listed knots for such activities.  Also, I'm assuming people who regular go fishing are typically not the average, disinterested customer.
Title: Re: Surrey Six Challenge
Post by: Sweeney on June 02, 2011, 07:12:45 PM
OK here goes with my 6 with brief reasons:

Perfection loop - easy to tie and holds together better then a bowline when tension is released (will also work in bungee cord/very stiff washing line where a bowline won't; contrary to Ashley I find it not that difficult to untie in synthetic material).
Zeppelin Bend - where you want to undo the knot afterwards
Fisherman's knot - where you are not bothered about cutting the cord/rope if necessary but almost impossible to get wrong (untidy maybe but just as effective if the overhand knots don't marry)
Pile hitch - needs the end of the item tied to but none better for exercising a pull for tightening a constrictor etc or mooring for the amateur on holiday
Strangle Knot - neater than a constrictor and good for temp whipping (the noose version is easy for someone to understand later and great for thimbles)
Fisherman's Bend aka Anchor Bend - finished with a half hitch is better than 2 half hitches and no more difficult.

I often use the Zeppelin loop bit's not easy to tie for Mr Average-and-not-really-interested; the figure 8 is a possible but I excluded it as most people get by with an overhand knot (they also get by with an overhand loop usually).

Barry

Title: Re: Surrey Six Challenge
Post by: Dan_Lehman on June 02, 2011, 09:41:57 PM

As far as I can see, I will end up with three identical bends if I cut the loops....


Well, yes, the "nub" is the same (though from tyer to tyer there
might well be differences in the dressing --Wright & Magowan
specified a particular crossing of the eye legs, e.g., and yours
like many other presentations don't cross).  But the loading of
the "bend-loop" differs, assuredly, from the other two; also,
its tying method requires an end; further, one must make a
choice in this knot as to the orientation of parts --it is not a
symmetric structure, after all.

--dl*
====
Title: Re: Surrey Six Challenge
Post by: Transminator on June 03, 2011, 10:03:14 AM
Just so this thread doesn't get out of hand like the other thread, the six knots are for the "average, disinterested customer" as far as I understand the original post.  We have plenty of "Favorite Knots" threads.  The focus here is a bit different.  I'm assuming people who have declared they go climbing, rappelling/abseiling or other similar activities, typically don't fall into the category of average, disinterested customer.  I'm not even partially suggesting the knots on my list are suitable for life-critical activities.  Assume that you MAY DIE if you use any of my listed knots for such activities.  Also, I'm assuming people who regular go fishing are typically not the average, disinterested customer.

My "favorite knots" selection would be different (e.g. the Siberian and the bowline have their place there, as they are good knots for most situations). But that aside I was thinking this: What 6 knots can I give to anybody to get through life, even if they never learn any other knot. I take the overhand knot for granted.

If a friend asked me to show him a good loop knot, I usually show them the bowline, as it is fast and reliable. But for the 6 knot challenge I decided against it as I had to teach them a variation or a backup for critical use. Therefore I put the zeppelin loop on the list as it is still relatively easy to tie but does not need the extra backup.

So I was looking for a "universal set of knots" that can be used in everyday life as well as in a survival scenario. That is why I put one universal fishing knot on the list.  6 knots that can be put on a single sheet of paper to carry in your wallet for reference.
Of course, if somebody plans to go fishing or rock climbing, that person is/should be interested in at least learning the knots he/she needs for that task. And if some uninterested customer asked to give him 6 knots for fishing or 6 knots for household and garden, the list would be different.
But I started on the assumption of an uninterested customer who only wants a set of knots for "everything". We convinced him to accept 6 (though he rather had 3 or only 1) in addition to the overhand he already knows.
Title: Re: Surrey Six Challenge
Post by: DerekSmith on June 03, 2011, 10:24:57 AM
Because the majority of us have not been taught how to use knots, we have lost the knowledge of just how useful cordage is, and can be.  Instead, we turn to glue, tape, velcro and bungees.  We use them because we have no alternatives, because we have never learnt how to use cordage for these jobs.

For me then the challenge for the Surrey Six, is to choose six 'knots' that best allow me to teach the USE of cordage.  Secondly, but for me, just as important, is the method of tying - it must be easy, memorable and reliable.

So my selection will focus on routine tasks I come across and will also be influenced by 'How to use it' and 'How to make it'.

1.    Top of the list for me then in terms of simplicity and functionality, is the Round Turn(s).  Not a knot? That is debatable, but in my book it is one of the most important structures that cordage users need to understand and utilise because of its incredible ability to exponentially shed the rope load into the stationary bar with virtually no reduction in rope strength, and giving the user the ability to 'hold' large load forces or controllably release them.  It should arguably be considered to be the 'grounding' for any hitch intended to take a significant load.

2.    Next up has to be the Half Hitch (or multiples) who's function is to terminate end loads and to hold the end (or a mid line bight end) in place during use.  I had considered nominating the simple hitch here, as it is my preference for many 'round turn and hitch' jobs, but it does rely on a stable coefficient of friction which might not be the case in use, and the half hitch is seen by most folk as a 'proper' termination.

3.    Up until about a year ago, I would never have considered proposing the Carrick as my third knot.  It is a lovely knot, but is just too damn hard to remember and make.  Then I realised that the Chinese Button knot method, shown to us by Willeke a few years back, made the carrick structure as an intermediate step, and that getting to this intermediate step was simplicity itself by the method she described.  Stopping the 'Button knot' at the carrick structure naturally produces a Carrick Loop - strong, reliable, and utterly jam proof.  It took only a trivial amount of experimentation to adapt the same method to tying the Carrick as a bend, with all the same quality attributes.  I now use the Carrick almost exclusively as my loop and bend of choice - even tying it inline on a bight as an inline loop.

Nominating this knot as my third choice, really does bring home the critical importance of the method of tying.  There is no question that this knot would not even feature on my list were it not for the simple, fast and memorable method brought to us through the Chinese button knot method.

4.    For me, this list would be meaningless without the Constrictor made by the 'Loop, fold over thumb' method.  As I make my Clove, Constrictor, Double Constrictor and Boa, all by the same method, they are to me all the 'same' knot, just with different degrees of grip and security, much as round turns are round turns, the only difference is 'how many round turns'.  The Constrictor is my proverbial 'third pair of safe hands', and I use it wherever I want a tight binding that will resist movement and flogging.  I also used to use it as the intermediary to producing my once favoured gardening loop - The Myrtle - make a constrictor, pass the end around the object to be 'looped' and put the end through the Constrictor - pull the constrictor and it pirouettes to wind the end into the ultra simple Myrtle, but this use has fallen by the wayside with the discovery of the simple Carrick loop method.

5.    Another newcomer to my list of often used knots has to now be the incredibly useful Gleipner.  Ultra easy to tie,  Ultra easy to tighten, massively strong, adjustable, and even easy to untie in hairy garden twine.  For me, this knot has a great future as more and more applications fall under its spell - I even found myself using it the other day as a delightfully controllable and adjustable inline tensioner...

6.    Finally, I must add my baby to the list - the KC Hitch - although I do not use it as often as the first five, it is without question my all time favourite for applying a hauling load to slippery or awkward loads, whether I am making it in cord, rope, chain or wire.  My only reservation is using it on objects that you do not want to damage, this is because as the levers open, they can apply an enormous compression force onto the gripped surface (necessary to develop the frictional grip) and can bite into, or 'bruise' the gripped object.  With this one proviso, the KC is ultra easy to make and use, and if you are using the sling variant, it won't jam - it can even be put to use as a sliding grip hitch on smooth objects such as scaffold poles, spars, masts etc.

Finally, don't forget that in use we use 'rope machines' which generally are combinations of knots, so the six 'knots' in this list should be considered almost as 'Lego blocks' with which to construct our final desired 'machine'.  For example, I used the KC on a pole and the Gleipner as an adjustable loop to hold loads at a fixed height, or the inline Carrick loop and half hitches to construct the Truckers 'Pulley' hitch, and of course, the half hitches ( tucked or single) are used everywhere to tidy up and lock up those otherwise 'lose ends'.

Derek

 
Title: Re: Surrey Six Challenge
Post by: knot4u on June 03, 2011, 08:28:17 PM
What's a KC Hitch? If I recall that was some invention revealed on this site, right? You gotta post a link to that, or else you're in your own cave, buddy!

I'm really diggin' the proposal of the Round Turn and the Half Hitch.  I was thinking about going that direction.  However, there's a problem with trying to teach those structures to a "disinterested customer".  Somehow you have to get them to appreciate all the different uses.  That's permissible here, but it just may take awhile.

=====

Generally, I think any list here is lacking if you cannot easily tie a Trucker Hitch and a versatile binder.  If you can address tying down a load and binding something, then you probably cover over 90% of the things an "average, disinterested customer" will do.

On my list above, I know the Reef is not the best binder, but it works OK and also it's important for the "average, disinterested customer" to be able to tie their shoes properly.  Notice I have the Bight Slip there also, and so a proper bow can be tied on the Reef to form properly tied shoelaces.  If you don't have the Reef on your list, then you're not allowed to show your customer how to tie a Reef instead of a Granny! :D  Anyway, my Roundturn and Three Half Hitches can also be a binder, and would be better than the Reef in some instances.

As to the Bight Slip, another big reason I put that there is because the Bight Slip and the Figure Eight allow the customer to tie a slipped Figure Eight for the Trucker Hitch (not my favorite, but It'll do for my customer).  Some of you have the Butterfly Loop and that would be better.  I didn't list the Butterfly Loop because I used a slot for the Bowline, which is more versatile and easier than the Butterfly for regular applications.
Title: Re: Surrey Six Challenge
Post by: DerekSmith on June 03, 2011, 11:56:08 PM
Hi K4U,

I think that you are mixing up teaching people six knots with teaching people how to use them.

The knots need to be simple and memorable, and at the same time totally effective.  Then when the audience can tie these basic knots, only then can we start to show them how to use them.

Teach a class full of children how to make a round turn - then take the very biggest and the smallest and show how the smallest can easily hold the heaviest one aloft with one hand and can then lower them in total control - the look of realisation on their faces is priceless - rope and knots are powerful - suddenly they want to learn more.

The challenge is in part choosing the knots to teach, but the greatest challenge is choosing the examples that demonstrate the usefulness of cordage and knots.  Perhaps the next thread might be - ways to demonstrate the Surrey Six...

Derek
Title: Re: Surrey Six Challenge
Post by: xarax on June 04, 2011, 01:27:09 AM
    Hi Derek,
   Allow me, please, to make some comments on your 6 choices above. ( You have been just and so kind to me in the past, ( I do not forget it ), and so I hope I can take that liberty, without receiving back much punishment!   :)
    Leaving aside semantics, nobody could possible deny that #1 and #2 are most basic elements of knots / knots. In those, you should add the riding turn ( that secures the tails that pass underneath and/or in between them in a friction hitch around a pole ), and the collar ( that secures the tails that pass around a rope segment, making a 180 degree turn - like in the bowline, for example ).
   I have recently noticed another most basic knot, that could well have been ABoK #0.5 ! It is the "Blackwall / Becket hitch on a (single or double) bight". I have seen that it can serve as a one-and-only-end release mechanism, where the one end of a rope that pass through a (single or double) bight can be pulled quite easily, while the other can not. A magnificent, most simple and basic one-end-blocking / one-end-releasing knot. ( See (1), and attached picture).
   Your #3 choice, is simply wrong!  :)
  I have never liked the Carrick bend, for many good reasons, but I have recently discovered another one, that is the final nail on its coffin! I have arrived at a Carrick-like bend that is, by far, better and more symmetric than the Carrick bend, as easy to tie, easier, by far, to inspect, in short, a Carrick extinguisher !  ( Adjectives are chosen deliberatly, for provocative-marketing purposes... :)) (See (2), and attached picture) I have labelled it lR-uL bend (lower Right-upper Left), for the time being. Throw away the Carrick; put this beautiful, most symmetric and secure bend in its place !  :) Seriously, now, I can not understand why one should prefer the Carrick from the Zeppelin bend, which should be at your #3, ( alongside "my" "new" bend, if you wish to be too kind to me!)
   The Constrictor is the finest "tails secured under riding turns"  hitch we have, no question about it. (The Boa knot might be overkill, most of the times, I think). But there are is a whole "new" class of hitches, I call "tails secured into nipping loops and opposing bights - crossed or parallel U s". We can also secure the tails of a hitch around a pole, passing them through a nipping loop, (like in the "simple hitch a la Gleipnir"), or through two - crossed or parallel - opposing U s (like in the 2U hitch) (see (3), and attached picture). So, I think that, together with the Constrictor, we should place those two classes of hitches in our front row, in #4.
    Nothing could overstate the importance and beauty of #5, It is not only one knot, but a whole new way of looking into the field of knotting, that made possible, among other hitches and binders, the "simple hitch a la Gleipnir" and the 2U hitch.
   Your #6 is something analogous, I suppose, with the ABoK# 1755 around a rope (not around a pole !), SS369 s SS hitch (yet to be published), the recent modification of spong knot ((see (4)), and the "ww hitch" (see (5), and attached picture). I have tried all the known friction hitches around tensioned ropes, (and then some...  :)), and I now believe this class of hitches that use crossing coils ("cross gathering" of coils) around the rope, is holding better, and with far less initial pull until they "lock", than the prussic knot, or any of the other similar climbing knots. I have tried the ww hitch with many or fewer coils, and with all the possible interlinked nipping loops as "lower ends" (see (6)), and I can say that we do not have a more secure hitch than this. I believe that, eventually, it will replace all the known climbing hitches.
   I have also a criticism to tell about an obvious omission. If I were an alarm clock next to the knot tiers beds, I would have been awaking them each morning, repeating "Do not forget the bowline, do not forget the bowline, do not forget the bowline..."  This marvellous combination of a nipping loop and a collar should not leave its crown place in any pedagogical collection of knots, however small !
   Of course, I am in no position to teach you anything about knots ! :) I only express my humble opinion, based in far less a knowledge and experience in this field than yours, and most of other senior members of this forum. However, I think I can tell that I share with you a, not so common nowadays, common wish to reveal that, oftentimes, things are simpler than they look (but not simpler than they are!  :))
   Take care

1) http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3012.msg17895#msg17895
2) http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3104.0
3) http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3104.0
4) http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3068.msg18348#msg18348
    http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3068.msg18353#msg18353
5) http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=2849.0
6) http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=2948.0
Title: Re: Surrey Six Challenge
Post by: knot4u on June 04, 2011, 04:18:52 AM
Hi K4U,

I think that you are mixing up teaching people six knots with teaching people how to use them.

The knots need to be simple and memorable, and at the same time totally effective.  Then when the audience can tie these basic knots, only then can we start to show them how to use them.

Teach a class full of children how to make a round turn - then take the very biggest and the smallest and show how the smallest can easily hold the heaviest one aloft with one hand and can then lower them in total control - the look of realisation on their faces is priceless - rope and knots are powerful - suddenly they want to learn more.

The challenge is in part choosing the knots to teach, but the greatest challenge is choosing the examples that demonstrate the usefulness of cordage and knots.  Perhaps the next thread might be - ways to demonstrate the Surrey Six...

Derek

All due respect, I think you're incorrect.  The original post says we're directing six knots to the "average, disinterested customer".  I'm expecting no light to go on for that person.  They don't care.  They just want to get the job done.

If you're not going to show the many uses of the Round Turn and the Half Hitch, then I think those knots would not be good for this list.  Again, it's for the average, disinterested customer.  You're assuming the person is going to take your knots and explore and discover, like you have.  Nope, your customer is not interested.

I was reinforced about this idea of the "disinterested customer" this morning.  I was trying to teach my girlfriend a good binder so that she could secure our baby's stroller for checking on a plane.  It turns out that I lost her after about 20 seconds.  That was it.  She's decided to go with a jamming knot that she already knows (probably a Granny), and she said she's going to cut the rope later.  :-\
Title: Re: Surrey Six Challenge
Post by: xarax on June 04, 2011, 04:49:56 AM
   To knot4u :
   Do you think that your average disinterested customer can learn the Zeppelin bend through the pq/69 method ? Is it a knot too difficult for her to learn ?
   I am asking this because I think you are underestimating the abilities of a person to learn, IF she discovers the wonder, the miracle of a thing, and thus uses her heart along with her brain. When we use the sentimental sphere of a student as well as her intellectual skills, the abilities to learn, and memorize a thing, are multiplied. Knots are simple things, a little more complex than basic arithmetic. When a student does not learn a thing, that does not means she can not, it simply means that she wish not to. The blame is on the teacher, not the student, the teacher that fails to unveil the wonderful, beautiful properties of nature, to motivate the inherent, natural admiration of every human being towards it. Move the heart as well as the brain ! Teach her the beautiful rope-made hinge, the Zeppelin bend.
   P.S If you fail, (which is most probable, because women s heart and brain are often jammed...), start again, with the knot4u junior this time! :)
Title: Re: Surrey Six Challenge
Post by: knot4u on June 04, 2011, 05:34:15 AM
Well, again, this thread is not about students of knots.  We established that in the other thread referenced in the original post.  This thread is about a disinterested "customer" who only wants to get the job done.  It's a huge difference, and perhaps the original post should have been spelled out more clearly.

I know it's hard for many of us to believe, but many (or most) people simply do not see the wonderfulness of knots, even after you show them.  They want to use one of your knots as a means to an end.  I'd go even further and say they don't even want to use your knots.  It's more like they're willing to do the "chore" of tying a knot so that they can get their job done and move on with their lives.  Now, the question is, what six knots do give to that person to get most of their jobs done?
Title: Re: Surrey Six Challenge
Post by: xarax on June 04, 2011, 06:07:48 AM
   Oh, I really do not know, may be because I am a customer of few things, and a seller of none. I simply want "my job" done, which is the next best thing to natural immortality, understanding nature...and that wonderfull little corner of nature, knots.
   
Title: Re: Surrey Six Challenge
Post by: DerekSmith on June 04, 2011, 10:13:46 AM
I have to concede to the both of you, not in the choice of knots, but in the realisation of the overarching importance of one word

     DISINTERESTED

By side-lining the word, I have started in completely the wrong place - it is not the choice of the six knots, nor even the choice of examples that is key here - the real challenge is to break through that barrier of  DISINTEREST.  Only then will a choice of knots and usage take on any relevance.

I have to classify my good lady as a Knot Luddite - while she is quite happy to sport a decorative cordage Dragonfly laced over her PC monitor, the things she does to my spare cordage when she 'tidies it up' would make any lover of knots cringe in visceral pain at the monstrosities she creates in the process of converting my cordage into a 'tidy' tangled lump...  but occasionally, even she enjoys  the use of cordage.

A few weeks back we went out for a meal with two lady friends, one of whom had invited along her daughter and her ten year old grandson Tom - Four women, me and Tom...

The wine and the conversation soon started to flow and I could see young Tom's eyes glaze over as his mind escaped to places of far greater interest.  So I pulled out two pieces of (freshly washed, in order to mitigate the deadly 'put that dirty thing away' stare) twiddling cordage.  I showed him how to join the ends using the Carrick by the ultra simple 'Wrap, Loop, Poke' method, showing him how strong it was and yet how easy it was to untie, making it repeatedly so he developed a little muscle memory of the method.  He had a nice long loop, which was about his hands as he tugged at it for tension - up until then the ladies had expressed nothing other than polite indifference, when suddenly decades old childhood memories came flooding back - hands plunged in, and the most wonderfully complex 'Cats Cradles' started to be pulled out of his loop of cord.

For a full twenty minutes excited schoolgirl voices chittered around the table with "Ooh, I remember that one..." and "Did you ever do this one...".  Tom joined in, eager to learn the complexities of these clever manoeuvres, and I sat back enjoying the spectacle of four grown women enjoying playing with a piece of string...  Twenty minutes of 'Fish', 'Diamonds', 'Field', 'Candles', 'the Manger', 'Knitting Needle's, and 'the Scorpion' - how many thousands of times must they have made those moves to have embedded them so solidly for so many years?

But then the memories ran dry, conversation went back to gossip and Tom and I had our string returned to us. 

Now Tom, although only ten, wanted a Jack Russell puppy, a goal that mum was resisting most firmly.  So I showed Tom how to turn his string into a strong lead and how to safely fix it to the collar loop (when he eventually got his puppy).  Tom made and remade his dog lead over and over, and at the end of the evening his mum asked him why he was walking around holding a knotted piece of string - his answer - "I'm practising taking my puppy for a walk".  Apparently Tom kept this up for two weeks  - taking his string for a walk - until mum relented and Tom and his new best friend can be seen nights curled up in bed together.  The string lead?  Well, naturally, that got replaced by a nice 'propper' (i.e. store bought) lead.

The moral of this story?

If you are going to teach someone how to tie knots, of what one thing must you first be certain ?
Answer -- You must make sure that your string is the right colour...  (OK, I am a sucker for Norfolk irony ؟  ) 

(just another way of stating that you always need to be sure to start from the right place...)

Derek



Title: Re: Surrey Six Challenge
Post by: DerekSmith on June 04, 2011, 10:36:39 AM
What's a KC Hitch? If I recall that was some invention revealed on this site, right? You gotta post a link to that, or else you're in your own cave, buddy!

Hi K4u,

It is a pretty small cave, but I think we are all in here together - address
IGKT,
Forum,
General,
Practical Knots...

You can find the KC Hitch posts through the search facility, but here is the very simple KC Sling Hitch
(http://igkt.pbwiki.com/f/double%20KC%20sml.jpg)

the thread

http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=551.0 (http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=551.0)

and the original post;

http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=542.0 (http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=542.0)

Derek
Title: Re: Surrey Six Challenge
Post by: DerekSmith on June 04, 2011, 11:53:48 AM
   Hi Derek,
SNIP...

   Your #3 choice, is simply wrong!  :)
  I have never liked the Carrick bend, for many good reasons, but I have recently discovered another one, that is the final nail on its coffin! I have arrived at a Carrick-like bend that is, by far, better and more symmetric than the Carrick bend, as easy to tie, easier, by far, to inspect, in short, a Carrick extinguisher !  ( Adjectives are chosen deliberatly, for provocative-marketing purposes... :)) (See (2), and attached picture) I have labelled it lR-uL bend (lower Right-upper Left), for the time being. Throw away the Carrick; put this beautiful, most symmetric and secure bend in its place !  :) Seriously, now, I can not understand why one should prefer the Carrick from the Zeppelin bend, which should be at your #3, ( alongside "my" "new" bend, if you wish to be too kind to me!)
 
SNIP...

Hi Xarax,

I hope you are in a 'good place'.  You might know that I respect your opinion as being just as valid as my own, so I would not attack you for holding a view at odds with my own.

I would though, like to explore your comments on my choice of the third knot - the Carrick.

As I explained, prior to finding a simple tying method, I would never have proposed the Carrick for a list such as this.  Indeed, the only reason I ever made the Carrick was to be able to study its form and function, never as a working knot.  Indeed, no matter how 'perfect' a knot might be in performance, if a tying method has not been developed that is easy and memorable, then it is never going to catch on.  Personally, I really like the little Vice Versa bend, but I have never found a memorable way ting it (I even find it hard to remember its name...) so I almost never use it.

This is possibly why the Reef  and the Bowline are so widespread, despite them being very flawed in function - they are just so easy to tie and remember.

This brings me around to your 'new' knot.  It does not look easy to tie, but you claim that it is.  So, can you please post your tying method here so we can judge its ease and memorability against the Carrick by the 'Fold, pull, poke' method.

Also, would you mind expanding on the 'many good reasons' that you have against the Carrick, because I am finding it hard to find any.

Derek
Title: Re: Surrey Six Challenge
Post by: TMCD on June 04, 2011, 12:28:54 PM
It's hard for me to add to the conversation in this thread but I'll give it a go concerning the bend choice. If we're looking for an easy to tie, easy to untie and easy to remember bend, then it's got to be the Alpine Butterfly Bend. It's been tested and grades out just as strong as Ashley's Bend from what I understand. It's almost impossible to screw up once you learn the movements....and they're simple movements. I would have to put the Alpine Butterfly Bend on the list because of it's simplicity and pure strength. If I'm working with a SheetBend, I always tie the Double Sheet Bend or the Tucked Sheet Bend because I have little trust in the common Sheet Bend.

Regarding the Bowline, it's the King of knots, I don't understand how some say it's inefficient and so forth. If you're worried about it slipping, either leave plenty of working end or tie an OH with the working end. The Bowline has to be on the list, it's a time tested knot according to most experts.
Title: Re: Surrey Six Challenge
Post by: Transminator on June 04, 2011, 05:54:52 PM
Indeed, no matter how 'perfect' a knot might be in performance, if a tying method has not been developed that is easy and memorable, then it is never going to catch on.
This is possibly why the Reef  and the Bowline are so widespread, despite them being very flawed in function - they are just so easy to tie and remember.

Hi Derek
I agree that the tying method is a very important factor. That is also one reason for the knots I chose for my list. I put a lot of thought in it. I find the zeppelin bend and loop easy to tie, as I use the same method (based on the 69 principle). Well, the bowline is simpler, but only slightly so and has shortcomings, but I would not go as far as calling it "flawed". I still believe it earned its title of "king of knots", because there are not many knots that combine simplicity, security, ease of untying in the way the bowline does. In fact, as I wrote before, whenever I need a fixed loop and it is not for critical use (which is almost always), I use a bowline, for those reasons and I would probably be OK even for critical use, at least when using a good old hemp rope, but why gamble? The only reason why I did not put it on my list is that adding a securer version (double knotted or yosemite) would mean two slots of the precious 6, so I chose a knot that does not need backup.

The Carrick 'Fold, pull, poke' method.
Now you got me curious. What is this mysterious method? Do you have a diagram or video that shows it? I am highly interested as I do have several methods to tie it, but none strike me as very simple (i.e. as simple as a bowline or at least as a zeppelin)

Regarding your other points:
Again, I agree with you that teaching knots is all about teaching principles, making it exciting, creating interest and such, but as knot4u pointed out, this thread is meant to give a "customer" his 6 tools to work with. All he wants is a small, universal toolbox that gets him through life without ever learning another knot and he runs away if you try to show him that he would be better off learning some basic principles and basic knots, because he would be able to solve his own knotting problems.
We know that once you learned the basics, you discover that many other knots are merely extensions, variations or combinations of those, but our customer does not but the crux is: he does not want to know. For him, ignorance is bliss.

If we're looking for an easy to tie, easy to untie and easy to remember bend, then it's got to be the Alpine Butterfly Bend. It's been tested and grades out just as strong as Ashley's Bend from what I understand. It's almost impossible to screw up once you learn the movements....and they're simple movements. I would have to put the Alpine Butterfly Bend on the list because of it's simplicity and pure strength. If I'm working with a SheetBend, I always tie the Double Sheet Bend or the Tucked Sheet Bend because I have little trust in the common Sheet Bend.

I also was in two minds about the butterfly bend or the zeppelin bend when I nominated my 6 knots. In my opinion they are equal regarding strenght, security and simplicity of tying and untying. The butterfly is slightly faster to tie, which is why I use it at least as often as the zeppelin, probably more often. The Zeppelin bend made it on to the list because I already have the zeppelin loop on it and I would teach our "customer" the same tying method for both. That is the only reason.
Title: Re: Surrey Six Challenge
Post by: knot4u on June 04, 2011, 07:03:24 PM
It's interesting that when it came down to it, nobody yet has listed the Buntline.  In that other thread, at least one person criticized the Surrey Six and other similar lists for not having the Buntline.
http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3075.0

I guess things are different when you have to come up with the six knots yourself.
Title: Re: Surrey Six Challenge
Post by: DerekSmith on June 04, 2011, 10:18:07 PM

The Carrick 'Fold, pull, poke' method.
Now you got me curious. What is this mysterious method? Do you have a diagram or video that shows it? I am highly interested as I do have several methods to tie it, but none strike me as very simple (i.e. as simple as a bowline or at least as a zeppelin)


I think we might have a problem.

I just did a search for Willeke and Chinese Button Knot - after all, why repeat something when it has already been done.

But - either the search function is faulty, or a great raft of posts has been eliminated.  Is this the consequence of the threatened 'tidy up'?  I do hope not, because some valuable material will have been lost if that is the case.

Can either the Webmistress or Webadmin cast some light on this please.

Derek
Title: Re: Surrey Six Challenge
Post by: xarax on June 04, 2011, 11:02:11 PM
It's interesting that when it came down to it, nobody yet has listed the Buntline.

   The Buntline is a fine simple hitch, I agree. I would characterize it more as a noose, because it does not accumulate any gripping power offered to it by an initial pull of the standing end and/or the tail.  
   However, it has two problems: The first problem is that it has two dressings, that end up with two secure, but completely dissimilar (looking) knots ( following the same path through the knot s nub, at the final tuck we can pass the working end over or under the standing end ). The second problem can be named as the "Buntline extinguisher"  :), and it is shown in the attached picture. I mean, if you go all that way until the Buntline s final tuck, why do you pass the working end the one way you do it, and not the other one ?
   The Buntline is only one of the 16, or so, different combinations of hitches/nooses based upon the figure 8 form. My 2 pence opinion is that the "Buntline extinguisher"  :) is the best of all. If I were to include a simple hitch / noose into the 6, this is the one I would choose.
Title: Re: Surrey Six Challenge
Post by: xarax on June 04, 2011, 11:18:38 PM
 As I make my Clove, Constrictor, Double Constrictor and Boa, all by the same method, they are to me all the 'same' knot, just with different degrees of grip and security, much as round turns are round turns, the only difference is 'how many round turns'.  

    In comparison to the Boa knot, what do you thing about the related ABoK#1687 ?
Title: Re: Surrey Six Challenge
Post by: SS369 on June 05, 2011, 01:53:29 AM
Hello Derek,

in regards to the searching for Willeke  there comes 12 pages with her name found, so I can't say what challenge you've got going on there. And a large amount of discussion concerning the Carrick family.

Scott
Title: Re: Surrey Six Challenge
Post by: xarax on June 05, 2011, 05:54:52 AM
would you mind expanding on the 'many good reasons' that you have against the Carrick, because I am finding it hard to find any.

   Oh, I realy do not know from which one to start !  :) I would say that the main reason is that this knot is, most of the tines, tied in a pre-collapsed state, and only then, afterwrds,  it is forced to collapse, in an entirely dissimilar, differently looking form. This abrupt tranformation would be magic, and great, if it transfigured something ugly to something beautiful, of course, but here it only does the exact opposite ! Come on, admit it, the Carrick is un ugly looking knot, at least compared to the beautiful, pre-collapse "base" it starts with. We have dozens of other bends, most of them secure, good looking and easy to tie. Just for an example, consider the "Violin", derived from a Dan Lehman more complex bend. (see (1), and attached pictures). You have to forget how to tie a Grief knot, to forget how to play/tie this Violin... :) And, contrary to the case of the Carrick, in that case the transfiguration, from the brrr twisted Grief knot to the mmm Violin, is a true metamorphosis of un ugly thing to a beautiful one !
    My point was less about your choice of including the overestimated Carrick, and more about your choice of ommiting the Zeppelin bend, and the bowline. It does not bothers me much when we overestimate something due to our traditional knot tyers conservatism, as to underestimate something of the highest value, as, first, the bowline, and, second, the Zeppelin bend.  

  This brings me around to your 'new' knot.  It does not look easy to tie, but you claim that it is.  So, can you please post your tying method here so we can judge its ease and memorability against the Carrick by the 'Fold, pull, poke' method

    I made yet anther effort to explain the veeery easy and memorizable method I use to tie this knot. (See (2)) However, there are more things to consider, when chosing a bend. For one thing, this "new" knot has the great merit of being most symmetrical, and beautiful,  more than even the Zeppelin bend ! ( as each link is point symmetric to itself).  But it might well have many shortcomings, that will keep it in the sidelines, as it s often the case with the so called "new" knots.

1) http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=2694.msg17155#msg17155
2) http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3086.msg18601#msg18601
Title: Re: Surrey Six Challenge
Post by: Dan_Lehman on June 05, 2011, 07:48:34 AM
I have to concede to the both of you, not in the choice of knots, but in the realisation of
 the overarching importance of one word

     DISINTERESTED

...
-- the real challenge is to break through that barrier of  DISINTEREST.

I was wondering how Knot4U understood this word, but it made sense
as he used it by the proper meaning --which is devoid of bias.
Alas, you seem to want to follow popular confusion of equating it
to "UNinterested", which is quite another matter.

Let's not corrupt the useful distinction.  A disinterested student is one
who will take the instruction without conflict, whereas an uninterested
one is, well, not much of a student at all.

--dl*
====
Title: Re: Surrey Six Challenge
Post by: knot4u on June 05, 2011, 08:00:59 AM
I was using the second definition of "disinterested" from Dictionary.com:

2.  not interested;  indifferent.

 :)

=====

I believe this thread broke off from the other mentioned thread because we wanted to focus on "customers" who genuinely have no interest in knots.  We're not talking about about students ("student" implies at least some interest).  At least, that was the point of me suggesting this new thread.  Customers want to "buy" a knot just to get the job done.  They're buying a knot from you to complete that task.  If another tool works better and is available, then the customer would happily use the other tool without a second thought.  These people need knots to get a job done but have absolutely no intellectual curiosity about knots alone.  I find that about 90% of people in my daily life fall into the category of disinterested customer.

Crap...Do I need to start another thread?
Title: Re: Surrey Six Challenge
Post by: DerekSmith on June 05, 2011, 09:22:10 AM
Hello Derek,

in regards to the searching for Willeke  there comes 12 pages with her name found, so I can't say what challenge you've got going on there. And a large amount of discussion concerning the Carrick family.

Scott

Hi Scott,

Willeke has a massive 34 pages logged to her credit.  I have painstakingly searched through them and found the post in question.  The issue was with my memory, not with the Search function.  Having re-read the post, I do not think it is going to be suitable to describe the fast Carrick tie method, so I think I will have to create it from fresh.

Derek
Title: Re: Surrey Six Challenge
Post by: xarax on June 05, 2011, 09:47:50 PM
... can you please post your tying method here so we can judge its ease and memorability against the Carrick by the 'Fold, pull, poke' method.

   I have already presented my tying method in the original post, ( see (1) and (2)) , so I do not find it appropriate to repeat it, once more, here. However, I would be glad if you could present it in better wording than the mine, so we can compare the Carrick bend, and the "Carrick extinguisher" :) bend, on equal footing. Now you are going to re-phrase the Carrick bend tying method, you could possibly use a similar wording to describe the method used to tie the various bend presented in(1)), in general, and the "Carrick extinguisher" :) bend, in particular.
   The "Carrick extinguisher"  :) starts from yet a "simpler" loose knot "base", ( "simpler", as judged by its simpler 3D picture ), but it produces something more beautiful than its origin - not less, as Carrick does !

1) http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3086.0
Title: Re: Surrey Six Challenge
Post by: Hrungnir on June 06, 2011, 04:02:24 AM
Quote from: Hrungnir
Alpine Butterfly Bend Loop
1. > I find that one fiendishly difficult to tie, remember and dress correctly.
Perhaps, but in my opnion it's easier to learn and remember than the Zeppelin Loop. What will help you a lot is to see where the ends are coming in and out of the overhand knot. The working end will always enter at the same place and exit at the same place of the overhand knot  when tying the Butterfly Bend Loop.

A Bowline is pretty much a half hitch, up from the hole, round the tree and down the hole. Alpine Butterfly Bend Loop is an overhand knot, up from the hole, around the tree and up from the hole. Pretty much the same number of steps.

Quote from: Hrungnir
Alpine Butterfly Bend
2. > The tying method differs a lot, at least for me. the bend and loop, yes, but not the butterfly bend loop. The end structure and dressing is the same, yes, but getting there is a different matter.
Wrong. You can tie the Alpine Butterfly Bend in the exactly same way as the Alpine Butterfly Bend Loop. Another advantage is that you can tie it in the same way as the Alpine Butterfly loop too. You get three knots for two tying methods, where you can use both tying methods for the Bend.

Quote from: Hrungnir
Alpine Butterfly Loop
3. > I thought long about whether or not putting the butterfly loop in but eventually decided against it, because: you hardly ever need a midline loop (I think) but if you do, you can help yourself with an overhand on the bight. Therefore I did not want to use a precious slot for a midline loop.
As I've already introduced the Alpine Butterfly structure in the previous knots and can use the same tying method as the Bend, I've now got two new reasons for including this knot. I also listed a lot of other reasons and uses for the knot in my original post.

Quote from: Hrungnir
Reef Knot
4. > I personally would not want to waste a precious slot for it. you pointed out the shortcomings yourself.
If you assume the customer already knows the Granny, then I agree with you. I would have chosen another binder too. If the customer doesn't know the Granny, he/she will have a lot of tasks he/she can't solve without the Reef Knot.

Quote from: Hrungnir
Double Pile Hitch
5. > though the pile hitch is good, it is difficult to tie (and remember how to) without excess to the end of the object. If you want to tie it around a tree, you already have a problem.
The simple Pile Hitch is simple enough to tie around a tree. I do agree the Double Pile Hitch is a lot more confusing to tie when not having the end of the object available. I did however include the Tensionless Hitch which also has some gripping power.
Title: Re: Surrey Six Challenge
Post by: Dan_Lehman on June 06, 2011, 05:14:08 AM
snip...

I was wondering how Knot4U understood this word, but it made sense
as he used it by the proper meaning --which is devoid of bias.
Alas, you seem to want to follow popular confusion of equating it
to "UNinterested", which is quite another matter.

Let's not corrupt the useful distinction.  A disinterested student is one
who will take the instruction without conflict, whereas an uninterested
one is, well, not much of a student at all.

--dl*
====

The prefix 'dis'  means 'the opposite' or 'not'.


I'm not gusted by this response.  Surely you don't learn your
words by such constructions.

In any case, you're fix-ated on the wrong part of the word;
the issue isn't the pre- but the suf-fix : interested --and the
interest lacking is that that could be counted as "vested" or not.

Quote
So someone who is disinterested is uninterested or not interested.
As a consequence of their lack of interest, a student might appear to have no bias ...
I must remember that Americans do not speak English.

Nevermind nationalist recollections, check the OED and read

"Not influenced by interests; impartial, unbiased, unprejudiced; now always
Unbiased by personal interest; free from self-seeking."


"disinterested" has long been a contentious word with the
loss of such distinction.  The sense has good application,
and "uninterested" serves another application amply well;
there is no need to double up with slopped expanded or
migrated senses.


 >:(
Title: Re: Surrey Six Challenge
Post by: dmacdd on June 06, 2011, 06:00:28 AM

Willeke has a massive 34 pages logged to her credit.  I have painstakingly searched through them and found the post in question.  The issue was with my memory, not with the Search function.  Having re-read the post, I do not think it is going to be suitable to describe the fast Carrick tie method, so I think I will have to create it from fresh.


Isn't this the method you're thinking of? : http://davidmdelaney.com/carrick-bend/carrick-bend-1439.html (http://davidmdelaney.com/carrick-bend/carrick-bend-1439.html)

It's pretty fast.

Even though I prefer the butterfly bend and the Zeppelin bend for pedagogical reasons, I find myself tying the Carrick bend often because I've known this method for 47 years, and it comes to my fingers without thinking. I even tie it in string!
Title: Re: Surrey Six Challenge
Post by: DerekSmith on June 06, 2011, 08:27:50 AM
snip...

   Oh, I really do not know from which one to start !  :) I would say that the main reason is that this knot is, most of the tines, tied in a pre-collapsed state, and only then, afterwards,  it is forced to collapse, in an entirely dissimilar, differently looking form. This abrupt transformation would be magic, and great, if it transfigured something ugly to something beautiful, of course, but here it only does the exact opposite ! Come on, admit it, the Carrick is an ugly looking knot, at least compared to the beautiful, pre-collapse "base" it starts with.

 snip...

I apologise in advance for going off topic here, but could not resist the opportunity.

Thank you for bringing this up Xarax, it is yet another example of why I believe that decorative weaves such as the Carrick mat are not knots - they are unstable, dis-functional weaves and do not deserve the appellation of KNOT.

The amazing thing about the Carrick though is that this pretty decorative weave is also capable of transforming under tension into a highly functional and truly excellent knot.  Indeed, its chameleonesque ability goes even further - if you make the Carrick bend in wildly different thickness of cord it transforms into yet another form with equal voracity to hold and the same resistance to jam.

It is said that beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and I find the form and function of the Carrick Knot to be just as beautiful as many find the pretty little decorative Carrick Weave.

Derek
Title: Re: Surrey Six Challenge
Post by: DerekSmith on June 06, 2011, 08:54:42 AM

Willeke has a massive 34 pages logged to her credit.  I have painstakingly searched through them and found the post in question.  The issue was with my memory, not with the Search function.  Having re-read the post, I do not think it is going to be suitable to describe the fast Carrick tie method, so I think I will have to create it from fresh.


Isn't this the method you're thinking of? : http://davidmdelaney.com/carrick-bend/carrick-bend-1439.html (http://davidmdelaney.com/carrick-bend/carrick-bend-1439.html)

It's pretty fast.

Even though I prefer the butterfly bend and the Zeppelin bend for pedagogical reasons, I find myself tying the Carrick bend often because I've known this method for 47 years, and it comes to my fingers without thinking. I even tie it in string!

No, it is even easier than this, and 'flows' better.

I am getting a series of photos ready to post.

Derek
Title: Re: Surrey Six Challenge
Post by: xarax on June 06, 2011, 11:26:23 AM
  The amazing thing about the Carrick though is that this pretty decorative weave is also capable of transforming under tension into a highly functional and truly excellent knot.

   I agree on this : you have stated the, one-and-only, good reason in favour of the Carrick bend !  :)

  The prefix 'dis'  means 'the opposite' or 'not'.  

   However, I am afraid I do not agree with this, but, I do not dis-agree !  :)

   See: English words prefixed with dis- :
   http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Category:English_words_prefixed_with_dis-
   A "proof" , dis-like it or not : the word : undisprovable  :).
Title: Re: Surrey Six Challenge
Post by: Sweeney on June 06, 2011, 12:19:38 PM
At the risk of prolonging this the Oxford English dictionary makes it clear that disinterested means impartial or not biased whereas uninterested means having no interest ie not bothered at all. That said it also recognises that in recent years the word disinterested has become commonplace as meaning the same as uninterested - an example of the sloppy use of language taking over. Although in some cases the difference between the two is marginal there are times when the use of disinterested in its correct context is important. To describe a boxing referee as uninterested is tantamount to an insult; disinterested is potentially a compliment.

To relate this to knots I could say I am disinterested in the use of the butterfly bend or the Zeppelin bend ie I have no bias toward one or the other - I favour them both equally - but if I were uninterested then I couldn't care less about either. In the context of choosing 6 knots it really doesn't matter - but being careful about using the right word is a useful habit for the time when it does matter.

Barry
Title: Re: Surrey Six Challenge
Post by: squarerigger on June 07, 2011, 12:09:33 AM
Well said Barry,,

Derek - might we have some facility with English after all?
<grin>

Lindsey
Title: Re: Surrey Six Challenge
Post by: xarax on June 07, 2011, 12:46:24 AM
might we have some facility with English after all?<grin>

   Do I have to remind you guys, that the battle of Yorktown is over ? 
Title: Re: Surrey Six Challenge
Post by: squarerigger on June 07, 2011, 01:22:12 AM
No problems,

I am English and have found it QUITE fascinating (and educative) to learn the usage of the language in the USA.  To quote the first person ever to have shown me by example "There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy...." [Hamlet, Act 1, Scene V]

SR   ;D
Title: Re: Surrey Six Challenge
Post by: knot4u on June 07, 2011, 03:02:14 AM
At least Americans don't have to buy into the whole annoying royal family nonsense.  :P
Title: Re: Surrey Six Challenge
Post by: squarerigger on June 07, 2011, 03:17:01 AM
Hi Knot,

No, that is true - but somehow the paparazzi still find a ready sale point for their wares regarding the Royal family in the tabloid magazines that line the checkout counters of the grocery stores and liquor stores!  Human nature being what it is in some, there will always, I might suppose, a place for such sales.... :P

SR
Title: Re: Surrey Six Challenge
Post by: Hrungnir on June 07, 2011, 06:14:29 AM
Unless you've served your king and country in the army, you would probably never understand what the royal family is.

But it would be nice if we could continue this discussion on topic - The Surrey Six Replacement ;)
Title: Re: Surrey Six Challenge
Post by: aknotter on June 07, 2011, 06:43:42 PM
Yall aint heard nuthin til you go down south!!!   (I'm from South America - - - Alabama!)
Title: Re: Surrey Six Challenge
Post by: Dan_Lehman on June 07, 2011, 08:10:22 PM
...
3. Timber hitch (very simple, surprisingly secure, can be tied under load (especially in combination with a round turn), easily untied and has some resistance for lengthwise pull as well, stopper> tie timber hitch without an object)
...

This just caught my eye :  :o   ::)

How does one tie a timber hitch under load?!

("not well" (vs. "knot well"!  :D ) )

Arborists use this knot regualarly, but with caution and some
anecdotal evidence that the "surprising" thing about it is that
it doesn't always hold so well (catching a drop).

--dl*
====
Title: Re: Surrey Six Challenge
Post by: Transminator on June 08, 2011, 10:02:08 AM
How does one tie a timber hitch under load?!

Same as the round turn and two half hitches.
The only difference is that you have to thread the end through 3 times in place of the first half hitch.
The former certainly better suited for this, but it is possible (especially in combination with 1 or more round turns)

Arborists use this knot regualarly, but with caution and some
anecdotal evidence that the "surprising" thing about it is that
it doesn't always hold so well (catching a drop).

Sure, the timber hitch has certain drawbacks.
I picked it for my list because of its versatility, simpleness and relatively good security.
It can be made more secure with further wraps but that does not, of cause, solve the root cause.
For critical use or permanent hitch, one can use the zeppelin in combination with a round turn as a hitch.

If not restricted to six knots, one would use different hitches for different purposes.
Whenever I need a quick hitch, I usually go for the siberian, for its ease of tying.
Title: Re: Surrey Six Challenge
Post by: TMCD on June 08, 2011, 12:02:27 PM
The Timber Hitch is suspect unless you tie at least one half hitch around the log...I just towed several good size limbs from my front yard to the back of the property using the Killick Hitch(timber hitch/half hitch), it holds well. I tried the timber hitch alone, and it spilled completely....the half hitch actually keeps it stable.
Title: Re: Surrey Six Challenge
Post by: Transminator on June 08, 2011, 03:34:18 PM
The Timber Hitch is suspect unless you tie at least one half hitch around the log...I just towed several good size limbs from my front yard to the back of the property using the Killick Hitch(timber hitch/half hitch), it holds well. I tried the timber hitch alone, and it spilled completely....the half hitch actually keeps it stable.

For lengthwise pull (dragging logs) yes. The Killick is much better suited for this, as it also gives you the advantage of tying the timber hitch further away from the end of the log and the half hitch close to the end. But it works fine for right angle load. When dragging logs its also important to make the tucks in such a way the the knot gets tighter in the direction of pull, as Roo pointed out on the timber hitch page of the notable knot index.
Title: Re: Surrey Six Challenge
Post by: Dan_Lehman on June 08, 2011, 06:39:12 PM
How does one tie a timber hitch under load?!

Same as the round turn and two half hitches.
The only difference is that you have to thread the end through 3 times in place of the first half hitch.
The former certainly better suited for this, but it is possible (especially in combination with 1 or more round turns)

Not at all "the same" : the venerable (round turn &) two half-hitches is a noose hitch
--a hitch tied to the structure's SPart, and something that can be done
under tension, albeit not necessarily set without yielding some length
in adjustment.
But the timber hitch is a proper *hitch* with tucked parts running
against the hitched object --something one cannot readily
do with tension on part to be "dogged" (tucked under).  Indeed,
preferably, the final tuck(s) will be towards the SPart's entry,
to receive greatest nipping pressure.


Quote
Arborists use this knot regualarly, but with caution and some
anecdotal evidence that the "surprising" thing about it is that
it doesn't always hold so well (catching a drop).

Sure, the timber hitch has certain drawbacks.

It remains a mystery as to these anecdotal failures, some by
tyers who should be doing a pretty decent job of making
enough (seemingly!) tucks and across a good span of rope.
Could it be some bit of potential magic of friction (lessening)
from a surge of force on the tucked bight --an initiated and
thus continuing slippage got by "shock" ?!  And maybe
something precluded or greatly mitigated by taking a full
turn before dogging the tail (which also can provide some
friction-hitch-like gripping to keep the set knot from loosening
when slack) ?

Quote
I picked it for my list because of its versatility, ...

It's a spar & pile hitch, but not a ring hitch; there is that much
of a limitation on its versatility.  (In contrast, a clove hitch
--especially when stoppered-- can serve across this range
(which asks a lot of a knot!).)

Quote
For critical use or permanent hitch, one can use the zeppelin in combination with a round turn as a hitch.

The way in "zeppelin" pops up in so many places, and especially
lists of basic knots such as this, betrays an armchair appraisal of
knotting.  For a (semi-)permanent hitch one will typically want
something that turns the fully loaded SPart around a hard-smooth
object (in that common circumstance).  One can see some easy
adjustments to the fig.8-based noose-hitches just posted by Xarax
for knots that would do this well (and still yield to untying effort).
Whereas interceding with force and hitch with some eyeknot will
then see repeated load cycles wearing rope-vs-rope in that knot,
which I think will be much quicker deterioration of material.


  -  -  -  -  -  -  -

Quote
... the Killick Hitch(timber hitch/half hitch), it holds well.

Let me object to calling this structure by this name : I surmise that
the (true) Killick (Killeg, ...) hitch which is given a history of having
bound commercial fishing lines to stones is (was) actually
a cow hitch with the tail dogged for security --a knot that
draws up rather snugly and with a suitable jamming, perhaps
aided by shrinkage of wet natural-fibre (or nylon!) rope.
This is a surmise from the given historical use & origin.

Spreading out that knot into two halves is moving to something
different, a compound structure as you've described.

(ABOK is seemingly amply supportive of seeing the knot as you
--and many other sources (echoes)-- present it, but the context
of the structure at #271 ("Occupational Knots") and its stated use
(along with #272, the slingstone hitch ) strongly suggest that
there is a jamming knot, not a loose half-hitch.  For this, I will note
that the **cow** orientation of this half-hitch to the timber
makes a better jamming structure than does the **clove**; but if
they are to be spaced apart --as for use on timber-- the difference
of orientation doesn't matter.)


Quote
I tried the timber hitch alone, and it spilled completely....the half hitch actually keeps it stable.

 ???

Can you elaborate, please?  I'd think that the main issue with
using only the timber hitch would be possible slippage up
the spar, which, needing the knot to be proximate an end,
for the sake of steering control, would risk it pulling off.
But ... spilling?!  Sure, there's more load on the knot,
but the hitch should nip & grip & hold.  Any thoughts
on the mechanics involved to loosen it?  --how many tucks?
(and over what span of rope?)


--dl*
====
Title: Re: Surrey Six Challenge
Post by: Dan_Lehman on June 08, 2011, 07:31:19 PM
1.  Sheet Bend
2.  Bowline
3.  Reef
4.  Figure 8
5.  Roundturn and Three Half Hitches
6.  Bight Slip (Yes, I'm using a precious slot for this so I don't cheat.)

That would be my six if I were teaching an average, disinterested "customer".

Let's settle on our target audience (this "disinterested" party)
being >>not interested in becoming Ace Knot Tyer<<,
and pretty much >>not knowing any knots<< .  I think
that this is better than "uninterested", for they of course
have to be willing to listen and try to learn --but they are
presumed giving us limited attention, readily turned off if
the instruction gets *deep* & esoteric ... .  Fair enough?

I'm struck by "bight slip" --by which I take to mean the
common finishing a knot with a "slip-tuck"/"slip-bight",
for (supposed) easy untying.

And I'm frustrated by coming to terms with the limitations that
this sort of "six knots" challenge imposes:  is it to be taken in
a quite strict sense, or can it be understood more loosely,
perhaps to instructing on movements & shapes --e.g., that
teaching the overhand stopper AT LEAST gets one
a bonus of the overhand eyeknot which is after all just
the same movement of cordage but with a bight vice single line?

And back to Knot4U's "bight slip" : here, with the latter
thinking (looser stricture), I'd suggest then the slip-knot,
as that structure at least can be used qua noose (simply switching
the function of the ends) and as a component for the trucker's
hitch
(also in both ways, one using a 'biner, say) !  And we have
therein also introduced the notion of "bight slip" along the way,
which even if not allowed to be counted in the knots-count,
seeds that notion as "an exercise left to the student."

Beyond this can come some other things,
but the slip-knot can be a nice finishing to the clove hitch
--provided our strictures allow this combination of taught
movements to come without cost of the knots-count.
Ashley's stopper might also be seen to be within reach.

--dl*
====
Title: Re: Surrey Six Challenge
Post by: Transminator on June 09, 2011, 08:45:11 AM
But the timber hitch is a proper *hitch* with tucked parts running
against the hitched object --something one cannot readily
do with tension on part to be "dogged" (tucked under).  Indeed,
preferably, the final tuck(s) will be towards the SPart's entry,
to receive greatest nipping pressure.

In theory yes, but in practise no!
What happens in practice is that you tuck the end through at the same gap in which
you tuck the half hitch, only 3 times instead of one. When you then let go
of the load, the not yet tightend hitch revolves around the object
until that gap disappears and voila, the end is tucked under the SPart and pressed against the hitched object.

I never claimed this is a good solution and if the hitched object is square or rough, the above might not work at all
but it can be done and I tried it successfully. Would I use a different hitch when not restricted to the 6 knots?
Of course. But this is what this thread is supposed to be about. To find a solution for most scenarios by only using these 6 knots.
This will inevitably lead to solutions that are not ideal.

It's a spar & pile hitch, but not a ring hitch; there is that much
of a limitation on its versatility.  (In contrast, a clove hitch
--especially when stoppered-- can serve across this range
(which asks a lot of a knot!).)

You point out the one it cannot satisfactorily perform. This needs to be compared with the list of things it can perform.
If you look closer at my list, you also find the constrictor, which can be used as a ring hitch and is more secure then the clove.
If you have another hitching problem that the mentioned two cannot solve, you find yet another one on my list, the (gripping) sailor's hitch.

The way in "zeppelin" pops up in so many places, and especially
lists of basic knots such as this, betrays an armchair appraisal of
knotting.  For a (semi-)permanent hitch one will typically want
something that turns the fully loaded SPart around a hard-smooth
object (in that common circumstance).  One can see some easy
adjustments to the fig.8-based noose-hitches just posted by Xarax
for knots that would do this well (and still yield to untying effort).
Whereas interceding with force and hitch with some eyeknot will
then see repeated load cycles wearing rope-vs-rope in that knot,
which I think will be much quicker deterioration of material.

We are talking about a list of 6 knots here out of which you have to
find a "solution" for most scenarios. Yet again you are making the mistake
of criticising a viable solution by pointing out that there are better options,
that it has shortcomings and so on. Of course it has. This particular option
of using the zeppeling loop (in combination with one (or more) round turn(s))
as a hitch is one solution one can construct with this "bare essential" list of 6 knots and
has nothing to do with armchair appraisal of knotting. The surrey six
do exactly the same thing with the figure 8. Since I do not have the figure 8 on my list,
I point out that one can use the zeppelin loop in the same way.

Why don't you post your 6 knots so we can scrutinize whether
one can find a viable solution for any sort of knotting problem by only using those 6?
Well?
Title: Re: Surrey Six Challenge
Post by: DerekSmith on June 09, 2011, 06:31:18 PM
Perhaps at this conjuncture we could do with a 'Test Set' of applications against which our average disinterested user might sensibly attempt to make use of the six knots they have been taught.

We could then all attempt to use the various proposed knots and see which ones we find to score the highest for a number of parameters.

Perhaps score out of five 0= crap -  5 = perfection for;

Ease of tying
Ease of untying
Getting it right
Speed
Simplicity
...?

Here are some applications we might consider to make into the test set -

Strap a bunch of kindling
Strap a bunch of bamboo canes
Tie a tow cable to a log to tow it
Tie a cable to a pole to pull (lever it) out of the ground
Tie up a pony to a rail
Tie up a dingy to a ring
Hang a ring on a vertical scaffold pole
Hang tinnies or bottle in water to cool them
Tie a tow rope to a car tow ring
Secure a bike to a car rack
Tension a fly sheet
Stop a cut rope from fraying
Secure the bottom of a ladder from slipping (no one to foot it)
Temporary dog leash
...?

Derek
Title: Re: Surrey Six Challenge
Post by: xarax on June 09, 2011, 07:25:05 PM
Here are some applications we might consider to make into the test set -

   I believe that the knots one knows determine which, and how many, applications one can discover for them in everyday life, and not the opposite. So, a "test set" should be, for our uninterested or disinterested customer, not to solve a number of pre-set applications with a number of pre-known knots,, but to discover (new) applications where the (new) knots can be applied. Then we will see which, and how many, applications our customer has discovered, and how well he managed to apply the new (for him) knots, with the new (for him) applications of (those) knots. If I will see a customer that uses a new (to him) knot he has learnt to solve a new (to him) problem, a problem that had never before crossed his mind that it can be solved with knots, then I will be sure that the initial selection was successful.
   In short, the learning of the use of tools, at the end of the day, is succesful not when it comes after pre-existing problems, but when it leads to discoveries we had never imagined before.
Title: Re: Surrey Six Challenge
Post by: Hrungnir on June 09, 2011, 09:26:09 PM
Here are some applications we might consider to make into the test set -
I do enjoy reading these lists of "when to use which knot". The presented problem, solving the problem and reading other forum members solutions are quite educational.

We are however reduced to a limited number of knots (six), and finding practical problems will introduce us to a wide specter of knotting material. Fishing lines, webbings, clothing, bandages, twine and different types of rope (natural, synthetic fibers etc).

Making a list of practical problems will also highly reflect the author of the list. How many people do have interest of tying a temporary dog leash? My guess is only those who is a dog owner. Same thing about boat and car, but more people owns a car than a boat, which makes car knots more relevant?

First aid is something that concerns everyone, but I very seldom see people mentioning first aid knots as relevant for a list of knots. Be able to throw a rope end to some helpless guy in the water. Using rope to secure yourself when swimming to help a drowning person, or lower yourself, a person or equipment down a cliff to help someone. Tie a compression bandage. Splint a broken foot. Make a stretcher.

There are also simpler tasks which presents themselves far more often:  making a lanyard for your sunglasses, tying a sweater around your waist, a stopper for your sewing thread, close a bag and binding together small stuff (to be able to carry more at once).

I also agrees with xarax that it's easier to see a knotting problem when you already know how to solve it ;)
Title: Re: Surrey Six Challenge
Post by: knot4u on June 10, 2011, 12:47:46 AM
Perhaps at this conjuncture we could do with a 'Test Set' of applications against which our average disinterested user might sensibly attempt to make use of the six knots they have been taught...

I think you're on to something, but I want to take that idea a step further.  Just to be clear, let's assume we're providing knots for the "disinterested customer".  I could imagine a list of regular applications that are not too specialized (e.g., not rappelling).  Under each application would be 1 recommended knot for that application.  So, the disinterested customer could look up the application that is closest to what he's doing and find the knot.

That's an order of magnitude better than doing things the other way around - seeing the list of knots, reading about each knot and then trying to figure out which knot to use.  Imagine if a "disinterested customer" were looking for a knot to tighten the lines on a tent.  He could see a picture of a Blake Hitch and pass right by it because he doesn't know any better, figures it's too complicated, etc.  In contrast, if the disinterested customer first sees the application he wants, then he is more likely to gather enough motivation to focus on how to use the recommended knot to get the job done.
Title: Re: Surrey Six Challenge
Post by: xarax on June 10, 2011, 03:29:28 AM
if the disinterested customer first sees the application he wants, then he is more likely to gather enough motivation to focus on how to use the recommended knot to get the job done.

   I do not think so. If the disinterested "customer"  sees the application he wants, he would probably chose to satisfy this need without using knots at all !  :) ( he would buy a plastic fastener, α metal carabiner, etc...) . The motivation comes with/after the knowledge. If he knows a small set of properly chosen knots, then he will be motivated to use this knowledge in his everyday life, as man has done from time immemorial. The "customer" will not learn any fishing knot, if he just want "his job done", that is, to eat fish ! If he knows how to fish, he would be motivated to catch the fishes and eat them...First the knowledge of the tool, then the application.
   If you show to somebody a protractor, and tell him that "an angle is what this tool measures". you will never achieve to persuade him that the knowledge of the properties of angles is useful, and he will never incorporate the idea of angles in his thinking. No wonder that such a failed teaching method has created a whole generation of mathematically illiterate young people...
   
Title: Re: Surrey Six Challenge
Post by: knot4u on June 10, 2011, 06:30:50 AM
  I do not think so. If the disinterested "customer"  sees the application he wants, he would probably chose to satisfy this need without using knots at all !  :) ( he would buy a plastic fastener, α metal carabiner, etc...)...

You misunderstood what I meant and went off in a different direction.  As an example of what I mean, the customer wants to tie down a tent and sees "Tie Down a Tent" as a topic, instead of the list of knots first.  Categories like "Gripping Hitch" are probably meaningless to the customer.

So, the knots database is organized by application.  As I said above, the customer then searches for the application that is closest to their application.  It's a simple, but important, change of how the knots are presented to the disinterested customer.

Anyway, you don't have to agree, but I'm confident this technique would work for my niece, nephew, dad and mom, who all have no fascination with knots.
Title: Re: Surrey Six Challenge
Post by: xarax on June 10, 2011, 07:08:25 AM
You misunderstood what I meant ...
 
   I do not thing so...  :) You were very clear, and I am not very dull.  :)
   First, teach the "customer" a hitch. Then, ask him/her if he/she can discover an application that this hitch could be used, in some way. If he/she comes out, with a big smile in his/her face, and say : "Hey ! I can tie down my tent with this thing ! ", then, and then only, you would have succeed something ! You teach people the tools, first, and they will discover the applications for them by themselves, later.
Title: Re: Surrey Six Challenge
Post by: knot4u on June 10, 2011, 07:21:43 AM
You misunderstood what I meant ...
 
   I do not thing so...  :) You were very clear, and I am not very dull.  :)
   First, teach the "customer" a hitch. Then, ask him/her if he/she can discover an application that this hitch could be used, in some way. If he/she comes out, with a big smile in his/her face, and say : "Hey ! I can tie down my tent with this thing ! ", then, and then only, you would have succeed something ! You teach people the tools, first, and they will discover the applications for them by themselves, later.

OK, now you're off on a different thread.  This thread is about providing a list to disinterested customers.  You won't be there to explain anything, or maybe the disinterested customer is looking at the list of knots a year after your lecture to them while they dozed off.

Agh, this thread is going in circles.  I think I'm done here.
Title: Re: Surrey Six Challenge
Post by: Transminator on June 10, 2011, 01:49:32 PM
This thread is about providing a list to disinterested customers.  You won't be there to explain anything, or maybe the disinterested customer is looking at the list of knots a year after your lecture to them while they dozed off.
Agh, this thread is going in circles.  I think I'm done here.

Exactly. That is why it was suggested to always teach knots in context, i.e. with at least some applications of that knot.
My idea of that list would be similar to the 1 page pdf file of the original surrey six.
It should contain a brief description of the knot, what it is for and (perhaps more imporantly: what it isn't for > do's and don'ts), a diagram that shows clearly how to tie it and two or three small illustrations of applied us of each particular knot.

Example:
Say we put the Blake Hitch on the list:
We show how to tie it with a clear diagram
We give a brief description of its function and intented use (climbing a rope (illustration)
Additional uses: ascend a pole in combination with a fixed loop (illustration), tightening tent lines by creating an adjustable loop (illustration) ...
do's: do use extra turns to increase the amount of friction if needed (slippery material e.g.)
do use a stopper knot for safety when using it as an ascending knot...
etc.

P.S.:
The Blake Hitch seems to work fine also as a regular hitch (with perpendicular direction of pull) and the adjustable loop can also function as a hitch.
With extra turns it seems to perform similarly well as the gripping sailors hitch or the icicle hitch (in my first tests). For that reason I am considering adding Blake's Hitch to my list in favor of the timber hitch and the sailor's hitch, which would free a slot for an additional knot.


Title: Re: Surrey Six Challenge
Post by: oneiros on July 03, 2011, 08:57:16 PM
To my mind, the essential beginner knots should be easy to remember, easy to tie, and difficult to mess up should they be tied imperfectly.  To this end, I'd choose the following knots for this challenge:

Figure-eight KnotA good stopper that forms a foundation for the following two knots.
Figure-eight LoopThe only loop that's easier to tie is the overhand loop, to which this loop is superior. It should be easy to remember too, now that the beginner is familiar with the figure-eight knot.  If he messes it up, he'll probably wind up tying the overhand loop, which will still probably be good enough to do the job.
Figure-eight NooseOnce again, the figure-eight pattern comes in handy.  If the beginner messes up the tying, he'll likely wind up with the Simple Noose, which will again probably be good enough.
Zeppelin BendThe fisherman's knot is easier, since everyone already knows how to tie overhand knots.  But teaching them "b and q and tuck them through" should make it easy enough to remember how to tie the Zeppelin, which is far superior.
Double ConstrictorSimple enough, and obviously very secure.
Turquoise Turtle KnotMight as well teach them to tie their shoelaces securely.
Title: Re: Surrey Six Challenge
Post by: DerekSmith on July 10, 2011, 04:50:46 PM
I think that some of us are starting from different positions here.

The reason I proposed a list of 'Test Uses' was so we might evaluate the some twenty or thirty different knots proposed as 'The New Six'.  We need some way of taking the valuable proposals posters have made and resolve them in some way to a usable list of Six - otherwise, all the proposals will simply sit here without an consensus as to what might actually make a good set to offer to the proverbial 'disinterested customer'.

Personally, I believe that sets such as 'The Surrey Six', or as this might turn out to be  - 'The IGKT Surrey Six' have great potential value in bringing people back to the use of cordage.  Cordage is massively useful, but only if you have a rudimentary set of knots that allow you to use the cord  reasonably proficiently.  All too often, users have no knot knowledge, they stack a set of overhands and swear when the whole thing comes loose at first gust of wind - then they have to face the ridicule for their ineptitude and cut the damn thing to get the jumble off again.

An 'Optimal Six' for 'Layman Use' would at least have the opportunity of giving people a tool for potentially hundreds of uses (once you had taught them and given them some sense of potential usage) - the perfect six to offer to teach to every school child.

I think the IGKT almost has a duty to evaluate and prepare such a list - those we teach these knots to will be the future of the IGKT...

Derek
Title: Re: Surrey Six Challenge
Post by: Hrungnir on July 10, 2011, 11:51:02 PM
Quote from: Derek Smith
The reason I proposed a list of 'Test Uses' was so we might evaluate the some twenty or thirty different knots proposed as 'The New Six'.  We need some way of taking the valuable proposals posters have made and resolve them in some way to a usable list of Six - otherwise, all the proposals will simply sit here without an consensus as to what might actually make a good set to offer to the proverbial 'disinterested customer'.

I agree with this one. But rather looking at one specific problem the user might be interested in solving, we should also look at which knots solves most problems. Adjusting tentlines is a good argument to teach the tautline hitch, but there are several other knots which can solve the same problem (Clove and two half hitches can be used in several other situations, while adjustable grip hitch is a more secure adjustable loop hitch).

As general purpose knots, I do believe the IGKT Six "must have" is: a Hitch, a Bend, a Binder and perhaps a Fixed Loop. This leaves room for two or three types of other knots.


My attempt to make a list of type of knots the user might be interested in:

Stopper

End bend
Bight bend

End loop
Mid loop
Adjustable loop
Multipe loops
Noose

Binder

Vertical pull hitch
End hitch
Bight hitch
Crossing hitch
Ring hitch
Pole hitch
Hitch tied under load
Hitch able to remove slack

Shortenings

Splices
Lashings
Whippings
Coiling rope
Fishing knots
Decorative knots
Rope systems (Mechanical advantage)
Various (Bottle sling, barrel hitch, shoelaces, neckties, bow tie, swings, ladders, heaving, etc)

Quote
We could then all attempt to use the various proposed knots and see which ones we find to score the highest for a number of parameters.

Perhaps score out of five 0= crap -  5 = perfection for;

Ease of tying
Ease of untying
Getting it right
Speed
Simplicity
...?
When we can agree on which tasks must be solved, I agree that a rating system is a great idea.