International Guild of Knot Tyers Forum

General => Practical Knots => Topic started by: xarax on May 24, 2011, 02:03:51 AM

Title: Interlocking overhand knots
Post by: xarax on May 24, 2011, 02:03:51 AM
   Two simple, interesting and good looking bends, by interlocking overhand knots. ( For another, more complex bend, by interlocking re-tucked overhand knots, see (1)). It is always pleasantly surprising to me, to (re)discover different dressings of the same simple rope tangles. Just a few rope twists can generate so many species of knots...

1). http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1919.msg16396#msg16396

P.S. 2011-10-31 : The bend "B" is identical with the B 25 bend, named "Illusion", by Roger E. Miles : Symmetric bends. (How to Join Two Lengths of Cord), 1995. (p. 94, p.113)
Title: Re: Interlocking overhand knots
Post by: Dan_Lehman on May 26, 2011, 06:29:27 AM
As the OP's knot-A looked to be, possibly, a viable offset
end-2-end joint --something desired for joining abseil lines--,
I tried in in a pair of similarly but differently sized ropes.
.:.  I don't like the amount of *movement* & *flow* I saw
in the parts of the knot; also, it lost some of the beneficial
offset aspect as the SParts were drawn away from each other.

(The other knot --"B"-- hasn't interested me enough to venture
into its tying.  "A" was enough work in tying & dressing.)

--dl*
====
Title: Re: Interlocking overhand knots
Post by: xarax on May 26, 2011, 03:50:04 PM
   The A knot is difficult to dress, and it should be tightened / inspected-dressed / tightened again a number of  times in order to be settled to a symmetric final form. I always use same diameter ropes for end-of-the-line bends. I arrived at it after the B knot, manipulating the paths of the strands into the knot s nub. I have not seen it anywhere, and this was a good reason for me to publish it, such a "simple" knot as it is . ( At the end of the day, it is still nothing more than another two interlocked overhand knots bend !)
   The B knot is even more symmetric / useful ? I am sure it must be already known, but I myself do not remember to have tied or seen it anywhere. It presents the front/back face symmetry that is so pleasant / helpful when we inspect a knot. ( Leaving some other things aside, I personally prefer the Zeppelin bend from the Hunter s bend, just because of this symmetry   :)). I believe that the B knot bend is one of the simplest and more symmetric bends I know, with satisfactory wide first curves, and a "stable" form ( compared to Matthew Walker or Rusty bends, for example ) I will certainly incorporate this bend in the Knots War tests I plan - along so many others few peope seem to care about ...:)   
Title: Re: Interlocking overhand knots
Post by: xarax on May 31, 2011, 07:25:45 AM
   I think I now have a simpler method tto tie the A and B bends posted earlier - as well as some other interesting bends belonging to this thread. We start from two linked single turn loops, as shown in the first attached picture. ( There are many ways to inter-link two single turn loops, but, for the time being, we will use only this specific one, shown in the picture ). We label the 7 "black holes"  :) shown there by their relative position : upper left (uL), upper right (uR), lower left (lL), lower right (lR), left (L), right (R) and centre (C). We only have to follow the labels, pass the working end of each one of the two loops through the indicated  hole, and so complete each one of the two overhand knots. Notice that the first label describes the path of the left (orange in the pictures) working end, and the second label the path of the right (white in the pictures) working end.
    I have tied all the possible combinations produced by this method, looking for interesting, symmetric bends. The following were the best I have met, but I may well have overlooked something. The interested reader is advised to explore the method by himself. It is easier than it sounds !   
Title: Re: Interlocking overhand knots
Post by: xarax on June 05, 2011, 04:57:58 AM
   I had hoped that my presentation at (1) was lucid enough, but I may be wrong. I will try to describe the easily memorizable method I use for tying those bends one more time, with other words.
   This method comes in two steps : first, we build a loose knot "base", and then, using this base, we tie the final bend, driving the two working ends of the two links of the bend through the appropriate, indicated paths of the loose knot base.
   Imagine two inter-linked half-turn bights in a 3D space configuration, like two rope-made links of a chain. Moreover, imagine those links laying  in two planes, the one vertical and one other horizontal. (see the first two attached pictures). Notice the specific relative position of the standing and working ends in this configuration. We will return to this later on.
    In each link, the standing end and the working end are crossed at a point.  Hold the two inter-linked bights by those points: hold the first link with the thumb and index finger of the one hand, keeping its plane vertical, and the second link with the thumb and index finger of the other hand, keeping its plane horizontal.
    Rotate 90 degrees any of the two links, rotating the wrist of any of the two hands, in a counter-clockwise direction. Doing this, the 3D space shape becomes a 2D one. Now, look at this shape from the "front" side: it is the side where the shape of the two interlinked bights looks like the "symmetric" shape at picture #3. That means two things :
   1. The working end ( and the standing end ) of each link should be shown to leave the loose knot towards OPPOSITE directions, in relation to the working end  ( and the standing end ) of the other link.
   2. The working end of each link should be shown to pass OVER the standing end, in both links.
   That is the knot "base" on which we weave the final bend.
   We can see those 7 "black holes"  :) in this shape. I label them conveniently, as they are shown in the picture s frame: upper Left (uL), lower Left (lL), upper Right (uR), lower Right (lR),  Left (L), Right (R)), and Centre (C).
   From that point, you just have to pass the working end of each one of the two links, through the specific "hole" indicated  by the label of the bend, thus completing each one of the two interlinked overhand knots. The labels that should be followed to tie a particular knot are written in a certain order : the first indicate the "hole" from which we should pass the working end of the first, left link, and the second indicate the "hole" from which we should pass the working end of the second, right link  Fot example :  In the lR - uL bend, we have, first, to pass the working end of the first., left link through the lower, Right hole (lR) , and then, we have to pass the working end of the second, right link, through the upper Left hole (uL).(See attached picture)  
   Forming the shape, it is better not to have too narrow, or two wide "holes". The knot is tied easier, if we leave just the minimum required room for the working end o pass through: one rope diameter. Doing this, the subsequent dressing of the knot becomes much easier, and unambiguous. ( Note: In the attached picture of the loose lR-uL bend, the "holes"are left wider, only for presentation purposes)
   I hope I offered some (almost  :)) comprehensible written instructions for the tying of this beautiful, most symmetric bend. Of course, - as it always happens in the case of verbal instructions for tying knots , the words are not enough, or they are too much, and they tend to  confuse/ perplex the reader, more than to help him !The pictures are telling the most of what has to be told here. The interested reader is kindly requested to ask me any question, and, also, if he wishes, to teach me how I could better describe this method, so it becomes more comprehensible and memorizable - or even how to tie those knots using another, different, and possibly better way.

1) http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3086.msg18494#msg18494
Title: Re: Interlocking overhand knots
Post by: xarax on June 05, 2011, 09:17:33 PM
   Yet another picture of the (loosened) lR-uL bend, which can be easily tied with the method described in (1) and (2). One can readily follow the path(s) of the rope(s) into the knot s nub, and see the apparent symmetry of the whole configuration.

1) http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3086.msg18494#msg18494
2) http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3086.msg18601#msg18601
Title: Re: Interlocking overhand knots
Post by: xarax on June 05, 2011, 10:28:35 PM
how to tie those knots using another, different, and possibly better way.

   The first thing an interested reader might ask, is about the obvious : why I just do not describe the loose knot "base" I use for those bends simply, as an "inter-linked 6 and 9 (or p and q)" configuration ? The answer is simple, too. I do not know !  :) The truth is thatI I have chosen to present my method as a method similar to the classic Carrick bend tying method, because I was more interested to compare those two loose knot "bases"- and, also, to show that the "base " I start is even simpler, and more beautiful, than Carrick s. AND to show what is most important, starting from those two bases, the lR-uL bend is more symmetric and beautiful, while the Carrick bend is less. ( I would even go as far as to characterize Carrick bend as "ugly"!)
   The 6 and 9 (or p and q) method produces some of the most interesting bends we know, and, among them, the best of all, the Zeppelin bend. I could nt possibly dare to compare the lR-uL bend with the Zeppelin bend, but it comes close !  :) It is even more symmetrical, in a way, than the Zeppelin bend, because, in a certain pre-loaded dressing, each of the two links is point symmetric to itself. (See attached pictures)
   So, if the reader wishes to chose a field where there are viable, strong competitors, the 6 and 9 (or p and q) method is more appropriate. If he wishes to feel the satisfaction of an easy win, the Carrick bend loose bend "base" method is preferable.
Title: 8 Interlocking overhand knots symmetric bends
Post by: xarax on June 09, 2011, 02:12:33 PM
   I have deleted some previous posts, to present here, again, in a more ordered way, all the interlocking-overhand-knots symmetric bends produced by the 8 possible *  combinations of moves, on the same "base"- together with some interesting dressing variations. The interested reader who would possibly discover some other stable and interesting dressings, is kindly requested to report them to me, so I would be able to complete this presentation.

  * Because this method produces the same knot for the uR-lL and the oSE,R  - oSE,L conbination, we have, in fact, 7 , in total, distinct bends.
Title: 1: lR - uL . 2 : oSE,lR - oSE,uL .
Post by: xarax on June 09, 2011, 02:35:19 PM
1: lR - uL
2: oSE,lR - oSE,uL

P.S. 2011-10-31 : The bend IR -uL is identical with the B 25 bend, named "Illusion", by Roger E. Miles : Symmetric bends. (How to Join Two Lengths of Cord), 1995. (p. 94, p.113)
Title: 3. uR-lL, variations A and B
Post by: xarax on June 09, 2011, 02:38:47 PM
3. uR-lL , variations A and B
Title: 4. oSE,uR - oSE
Post by: xarax on June 09, 2011, 02:43:01 PM
4. oSE,uR - oSE,lL
Title: 5: R - L . 6: oSE,R - oSE, L
Post by: xarax on June 09, 2011, 02:45:59 PM
5: R - L
6: oSE,R - oSE, L

P.S. 2011-10-30 : The bend R - L is identical with the B 24 bend, named "Rhomb  bend", by Roger E. Miles : Symmetric bends. (How to Join Two Lengths of Cord), 1995. (p. 94, p.113). See also D. Mandeville, Knotting Matters 29, 1989, 6-13.
Title: 7: C - C . 8: oSE,C - oSE,C
Post by: xarax on June 09, 2011, 02:49:54 PM
7: C - C
8: oSE,C - oSE,C
Title: Re: Interlocking overhand knots
Post by: roo on June 09, 2011, 03:20:27 PM
Since you are posting this in the Practical Knot forum, what are the properties of these latest knots that make you see them as practical, and not just decorative or "good-looking"?
Title: Re: Interlocking overhand knots
Post by: roo on June 09, 2011, 04:17:18 PM
Since you are posting this in the Practical Knot forum, what are the properties of these latest knots that make you see them as practical, and not just decorative or "good-looking"?
  Your repetitive claim, that my knots are decorative, run the danger of the boy that cried "wolf !". ( In any of the three variations of this myth - I have told you where to read the original text, for you to decide which specific variation you prefer...) A repetitive claim, is, after a number of times, either "fancy" or "decorative", and should be better posted in the relevant "Fancy and Decorative Knots " forum. I admire your persistence ! ( Although it might have a therapeutic purpose...in that case, I am sorry, and I have nothing more to say.)
    
I'm not claiming anything.  I'm asking a question.  There is a difference.  If you are annoyed by questions of practicality in a Practical Knot forum, the question will not arise in the Chit Chat forum or the Knot Theory forum or the Fancy and Decorative Knotwork forum.

Translating via Google (I don't speak your native tongue):
Δεν είμαι διεκδίκηση τίποτα. Ρωτάω μια ερώτηση. Υπάρχει μια διαφορά. Αν είστε ενοχλούνται από ερωτήσεις του πρακτικότητα σε ένα φόρουμ Πρακτικές Knot, το ζήτημα δεν θα προκύψει στο forum Κουβεντούλα ή το Knot Θεωρία forum ή το Fancy και Διακοσμητικά Knot φόρουμ.
Title: Re: Interlocking overhand knots
Post by: roo on June 09, 2011, 04:42:17 PM
  I'm not claiming anything.  I'm asking a question.  There is a difference.

   You are not asking a question. You are asking the same question about all the knots I have posted in this forum. There is a difference !
   If you do not remember how many knots I have posted in this forum, I can help you : Go to the thread (1), and start counting... Stop, after number 30. ( And this is only the bends. Do not count the hitches...) Then, try to count the decorative knots. Stop, after number 1.
   I doubt you have ever bothered to tie any of them, or you will ever tie one. It seems you find pleasure only in repetition, so you tie the same small number of knots it happened for you to learn when you were young. There is nothing wrong with this, we all stop learning, after a certain age, and spend the rest of our lives trying to persuade ourselves that there is nothing new under the sun...    
   Roo, you have a problem with me, I know, but I beg you : Do not let this problem evolve into a problem with yourself. Your contribution to this forum was, and still is,  valuable, and it will be a pity...I really feel sorry. I sincerely hope the best.

1) http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3125.0

I'm asking the same question again because you keep refusing to answer.  I have no problem with you on a personal level.  Why are you perpetually surprised at questions of knot practicality in a Practical Knot Forum?
Title: Re: Interlocking overhand knots
Post by: roo on June 09, 2011, 05:06:34 PM
 Why are you perpetually surprised at questions of knot practicality in a Practical Knot Forum?

   I am not surprized by perpetual questions !  :) I try to find the cause that is at the root of the repetition, like we do with all repetitive natural phenomena. When it comes to a perpetually broken mechanism, I stop. I can not fix the human soul, I can only tie some knots ! 
   I suggest you better start tying my knots, and stop talking with me... :) I assume you have not lost the former ability yet, but I am afraid you desperately try to find some kind of cure, practising the latter. ( Go to Google, and translate, please, my native dialect into yours.)
When I tie your knots, what am I looking for?  You refuse to say what problem it solves.  You refuse to say what the practicality is.  I cannot test your hypothesis if you hide your hypothesis!

If you were to say, "This bend nicely resists jamming and is secure", then I'd have both a motivation to tie the knot, and a claim that I could test.

As it stands now, it's like you're throwing out patterns of ones and zeros in a software forum without bothering to run the program, debug the program, or even describe what it is supposed to do well.

Help us out, Xarax.  We cannot read your mind.
Title: Re: Interlocking overhand knots
Post by: roo on June 09, 2011, 05:53:41 PM
Do not hesitate to ask me as many different questions as you wish, and I will answer immediatelly.
Really?  Let's limit it to this thread.  Of the knots presented in this thread, which is the most practical?  How does it excel as a practical knot?  What problem does it solve?

Let's see if you will answer immediately.
Title: Re: Interlocking overhand knots
Post by: xarax on June 09, 2011, 06:08:49 PM
   I believe that the lR-uL bend is the most interesting one, as the two overhand knots are maximally interlocked : The extend of the contact between the two links is quite large, probably more than adequate for securing the tails into the knot s nub. Also, I like the front/ back side symmetry, which makes the knot very easy to inspect ( as it is the case for the Zeppelin bend). I have also tested in slippery monofilament material, and it holds very well. It is only one tuck more complex that the Carrick bend, and its first curnes are much wider, so I guess it will have a greater strength ( The Carrick is not such a strong knot).
   I do not know if you have tied this knot... If so, what are your first thoughts about it ?
Title: Re: Interlocking overhand knots
Post by: xarax on June 11, 2011, 04:39:00 AM
   I have met, by pure chance, the bend lR - uL first, and, elaborating on it a little, the oSE,lR-oSE,uL , later. ( The "B" and the "A" knots, respectably, as named initially in the first posts of this thread )(*). It was only much later that, by "reverse enguineering", I have learnt the general method of tying them, and I have met the 5 other new knots belonging in the same tying group.
   Now, we can group those 7 knots in three broad categories. In the second we can place the Ashley-bend-like (looking) bends (  C-C, oSE,C-oSE,C , oSE,uR-oSE,lL ) In the first, besides my favourite, also the R-L (see attached pictures) (**). This bend is also looking central symmetric from each side (but the two sides are not themelves identical, like in my favourite... :))
   It might well be proved that this bend will be an equally secure and usefull bend, as the lR-uL. Its strands are secured, by friction, along an equally convoluted and long path inside the knot s nub. So, the not-uninterested, or not-disinterested reader  :), is kindly requested to have a look at this bend as well.

   A Note. Presenting those pictures, I try to do many things, so I have to compromise a little on all. The bends are not tightened as tight as they could, so the knot retains a more symmetric pre-loaded shape, and the paths of the rope strands are easily followed by sight. A mixture of a realistic image with a diagramm, in short, no one of them being perfect...

(*) P.S. 2011-10-31 : The bend IR - uL is identical with the B 25 bend, named "Illusion", by Roger E. Miles : Symmetric bends. (How to Join Two Lengths of Cord), 1995. (p. 94, p.113)

(**) P.S. 2011-10-30 : The bend R - L is identical with the B 24 bend, named "Rhomb  bend", by Roger E. Miles : Symmetric bends. (How to Join Two Lengths of Cord), 1995. (p. 94, p.113). See also D. Mandeville, Knotting Matters 29, 1989, 6-13.
Title: Re: Interlocking overhand knots
Post by: Dan_Lehman on June 11, 2011, 07:24:46 AM
A Note. Presenting those pictures, I try to do many things, so I have to compromise a little on all. The bends are not tightened as tight as they could, so the knot retains a more symmetric pre-loaded shape, and the paths of the rope strands are easily followed by sight. A mixture of a realistic image with a diagramm, in short, no one of them being perfect...

If you were drawing images, you could sometimes get the
harder-to-discern-but-more-realistic image to succeed by
supplementing it with indicators of *flow* through the knot
(say, by numbering parts 1, 2, 3, ... <end>).
Sometimes, looking at a knot in an ambiguous image, one can
arrive at a *new* knot by (mis)connecting parts!  --which leads
to an interesting question about "invention".

This knot can be seen as an interlocked variation to a sort of
"mis"-oriented fisherman's knot --the overhand components
being tied differently.  Which knot seems quite secure, albeit
somewhat awkward/bulky.  This interlocked variation might achieve
some bump in strength, but looks to be jamming, and more bulky.

--dl*
====
Title: Re: Interlocking overhand knots
Post by: xarax on June 16, 2011, 12:54:24 AM
This knot can be seen as an interlocked variation to a sort of "mis"-oriented fisherman's knot --the overhand components being tied differently.

  I would not characterize the fisherman s knot as an "interlinked-overhand-knots" bend ( like the Zeppelin and the Hunter s bend, the Ashley s, the Alpine butterfly and the Shakehands bend.) In the fisherman s knot, the inter-connection is too simple, something resembling more of an inter-penetration: the two overhand knots do not have their curved rope segments interlinked the one with the other , and only the standing ends are penetrating the one into the other s knot nub.
   Because of the fact that the curved segments of the one overhand knot are found in an elbow configuration with those of the other, this bend is bulkier than the fisherman s knot. However, its curves radii are much wider, and this is what moved me, in the first place, to search for it, and for the other bends of this thread.
Title: Re: Interlocking overhand knots
Post by: xarax on October 02, 2011, 09:27:41 PM
   A different dressing for the most symmetric interlocked-overhand-knots bend, the lR-uL (shown at Replies#1, #3, #6, #8). The two pairs of ends are perpendicular and in touch to each other. I do not know if this dressing/form can be maintained under heavy loading, but it is interesting nevertheless, because it reveals the symmetry of this bend in yet another way.