International Guild of Knot Tyers Forum

General => Practical Knots => Topic started by: TMCD on March 27, 2011, 02:11:01 PM

Title: What's the BEST knot to tie of a small jon boat to a big tree on the shore?
Post by: TMCD on March 27, 2011, 02:11:01 PM
When we go camping out and fishing, I've got this situation where I pull the jon boat into the shore line and tie off to a good size tree. My tie off rope is about twenty foot long, leaving me with plenty of line to work with. I recently tied off with a poachers knot or scaffold knot as Budworth refers to it and it worked well. But what would the experts on here use? The tree's to big to tie a snuggle hitch, clove hitch etc. IMO.
Title: Re: What's the BEST knot to tie of a small jon boat to a big tree on the shore?
Post by: Sweeney on March 27, 2011, 02:47:35 PM
If I understand correctly you are currently using a slip loop around the tree trunk because the tree is too big to use a clove hitch etc. You might think along the lines of a "tensionless hitch" without the usual wraps - add a small (or whatever size may be useful) loop to the end of your tie off line, take it around the tree and clip a climbing carabiner through the loop and then clip it over the standing part. You can always leave the carabiner attached to your tie off line when not in use. Not strictly a knot perhaps but quick and easy to use and release.

Barry
Title: Re: What's the BEST knot to tie of a small jon boat to a big tree on the shore?
Post by: TMCD on March 27, 2011, 03:09:12 PM
Yes, I'm using the scaffold knot because I can slide it up or down the line for tension. Thanks for your suggestion but I'd prefer to just stay within the realm of knots and rope.
Title: Re: What's the BEST knot to tie of a small jon boat to a big tree on the shore?
Post by: SS369 on March 27, 2011, 03:23:03 PM
Hello TMCD.

Thinking about your question, what comes to my mind is the need for simplicity and security. I would most likely tie a timber hitch around the tree, but I would add the taking of the WE through the eye that was formed around the SP. I don't think it is necessarily needed. You could just add additional wraps that comprise the eye forming part.
I don't suspect that there will be so much tension on the anchor line that untying will be too troublesome.

Another possibility is a slipped bowline.

Not necessarily the Best, but they're my contribution. Food for thought anyway.

SS
Title: Re: What's the BEST knot to tie of a small jon boat to a big tree on the shore?
Post by: Dan_Lehman on March 27, 2011, 03:28:26 PM
You haven't said, and --tsk,tsk-- Barry didn't ask, What type of cordage
are you using?
 This should be one of the first bits of information
sought in such What knot...? queries.

Although, frankly, I'm puzzled at the described situation posing much
of a quandry --this is a commonplace circumstance amenable to many
solutions.  I am much surprised at your choice of a strangle noose
instead of something more simply tied:  what is your reasoning?
(This noose is not well disposed to hitching to a relatively wide
object, as the (double) strangle knot is pulled open by loading
an end at an angle to a bound object.)

But the obvious questions coming to my mind are:

Why not use a bowline or tautline (rolling) hitch ?
(The latter can be tied/untied under tension; it can also be tied
in the bight (orienting the slack half just out of the way until
the closing half-hitch, and securing that w/a slip-knot. )

Is there much of any need for the rope, even --beyond the obvious
slight (yes?) chance of boat drift ?  I.e., for the most part, the
beaching of the boat is adequate to hold it; the rope ensures
that it stays so, but will often be untensioned beyond setting.


Cheers,
--dl*
====
Title: Re: What's the BEST knot to tie of a small jon boat to a big tree on the shore?
Post by: Dan_Lehman on March 27, 2011, 03:45:00 PM
Huh??

Thinking about your question, what comes to my mind is the need for simplicity and security.

Right on target, here (though we're missing the query re cordage.)
 ;)

Quote
I would most likely tie a timber hitch around the tree,
but I would add the taking of the WE through the eye that was formed around the SP.

But here there's more consumption of cordage than needed,
on large trees, for a knot that isn't a hallmark of security, esp.
when slack --and cannot be tied to/under tension.
Now, "the eye that was formed around the S.Part" really
puzzles me, as that eye is typically elongatedly large, not at all
a nipping structure --and it takes even more line to get to this
point.

Quote
... wraps that comprise=>compose the eye forming part.
[pet peeve alert!]
Mr. Grammar points out "the whole comprises (all of) the parts,
the parts compose the whole" --and damn the newspeakers who
trespass this important distinction is some lust for a new sound,
or ... (who knows).  (Likewise re "further" : "farther" IS a word
in the series "far"-"farther"-"farthest", indicators of distance or,
metaphorically, *linear* extent.)  Hrrrrmph!   >:(


The fixed gripper hitch should pop up in this discussion were
its discoverer poking around at this time; it, too, can work.
Guarding the strangle with a half-hitch is a way of joining
the frictional nip of the latter with the security of the former.

--dl*
====
Title: Re: What's the BEST knot to tie of a small jon boat to a big tree on the shore?
Post by: SS369 on March 27, 2011, 05:13:58 PM
Mr. Grammar strikes again.  LOL
Ok,  I'll let spelling/grammar mistakes of others slide if you do Dan. But, I appreciate you doing the teacher thing. Absolutely will try my best to not induce peeve petting again. ;-)

As for the query of cordage, well, I believe that my offering as a possible solution can work regardless of the type rope/cord.
TCMD states that he has ample rope for His task.
Security is ample with either of the tie off methods I offered. Especially if in the case of the Timber hitch if you were to insert the WE through the eye.
If we are talking about saving possibly six inches of rope then my solution fails. ;-)
A nipping structure is not always needed to perform a task.

But, I did include a possibility with a nip to ponder, the slipped bowline.

Truth be known, there are so many knots that would work here. I just offered two that I would consider using, given the OP's question and parameters.

SS
Title: Re: What's the BEST knot to tie of a small jon boat to a big tree on the shore?
Post by: TMCD on March 27, 2011, 07:47:13 PM
We use a 1/4 inch polyester. Its main purpose is for trailering the boat and tying off. It's essential for this rope to be present on the boat. The shoreline isn't a beach or sand unfortunately, the area we're forced to tie off in is actually the corner of the dam. The bank isn't steep but it's full of small rocks, small logs etc., so I can't "beach" the craft if you will. I have to let the boat stay adrift at shores edge.

The scaffold knot did work but it rained that night and it was very difficult to untie the next morning when we went out fishing. But it did exactly the job I was looking for, it kept the rope tight and the boat directly in it's place. I'm a newbie to the world of knotting but have thrown myself into learning as much as possible. My wife thinks I'm nuts and laughed when I couldn't hardly get the scaffold knot untied.

On this camping trip alone, I used the truckers hitch, slipped clove hitch, clove in a bight, and scaffold knot. I don't know how I survived all those years without knowing about knots. I find myself creating situations to use various knots and rope.lol.
Title: Re: What's the BEST knot to tie of a small jon boat to a big tree on the shore?
Post by: dmacdd on March 28, 2011, 01:00:09 AM
 It sounds like you want a big loop,  around a big object, but not tight around it, with the knot on board your boat?

Why is the plain old bowline not sufficient?

If you want something adjustable, (why?) why not an old fashioned rolling hitch or midshipman's hitch around the standing part, with an extra finishing half hitch for security?
Title: Re: What's the BEST knot to tie of a small jon boat to a big tree on the shore?
Post by: knot4u on March 28, 2011, 01:35:42 AM
Bowline, Running Bowline, or Slipped Buntline
Title: Re: What's the BEST knot to tie of a small jon boat to a big tree on the shore?
Post by: TMCD on March 28, 2011, 12:56:57 PM
The rolling hitch or some kind of hitch that slides and grips is ideal for me, it's one reason I used the scaffold knot. With the excessive length of rope, about five feet to much, these slide and grip hitches are ideal for me to manipulate the line taut. I don't think I could get the rope that tight using a regular bowline, there would be some slack. I want the roper suspended in midair after being tied off to the tree....it just occured to me that a truckers hitch would be perfect.lol. that's what I'll use.
Title: Re: What's the BEST knot to tie of a small jon boat to a big tree on the shore?
Post by: Dan_Lehman on March 28, 2011, 05:18:44 PM
The rolling hitch or some kind of hitch that slides and grips is ideal for me,
it's one reason I used the scaffold knot.

Really, though, this is a non-sequitur : the (multiple) strangle knot
isn't much a *friction hitch*!  Yes, it can grip and resist movement,
but it is hardly intended for such function (anglers, now, will take
some issue with this!), and it is at best a cumbersome, poor realization
of this ideal.

Quote
With the excessive length of rope --about five feet too much--,
these slide and grip hitches are ideal for me to manipulate the line taut.
I don't think I could get the rope that tight using a regular bowline,
there would be some slack. I want the roper suspended in mid-air after
being tied off to the tree....it just occured to me that a truckers hitch
would be perfect.lol. that's what I'll use.

What's ideal is the rolling (tautline) hitch --consider its name!   ;)
A trucker's hitch is needless, overkill --you might employ it
were you intent upon hauling the boat up onto dry ground,
but you'd be needing ample line for this.  As I noted above,
the tautline hitch can be tied with the bight of rope, sparing
one the awkwardness of working with a lonnnnng tail.  Finish with
a slipped half-hitch (part of the knot, i.e.) in which a slip-knot is
then tied, to prevent loosening.

--dl*
====
Title: Re: What's the BEST knot to tie of a small jon boat to a big tree on the shore?
Post by: knot4u on March 28, 2011, 06:26:16 PM
Your desire to get the line taut wasn't obvious in your original post.  I imagined your boat that could be moving all over the place within, say, a 10 foot radius.  So, I thought getting the line taut would be a waste of time based on what you described originally.

The rolling hitch or some kind of hitch that slides and grips is ideal for me, it's one reason I used the scaffold knot. With the excessive length of rope, about five feet to much, these slide and grip hitches are ideal for me to manipulate the line taut. I don't think I could get the rope that tight using a regular bowline, there would be some slack. I want the roper suspended in midair after being tied off to the tree....it just occured to me that a truckers hitch would be perfect.lol. that's what I'll use.

OK, so you want the line taut.  A fixed loop is obviously not what you want.  There are also better choices than a Scaffold Noose (ABOK #1120).  I'd go with one of these:

Blake Hitch
Adjustable Grip Hitch
Trucker Hitch
Round Turn & Three Half Hitches
Title: Re: What's the BEST knot to tie of a small jon boat to a big tree on the shore?
Post by: [Inkanyezi] gone on March 29, 2011, 09:52:18 AM
I didn't bite on this one immediately, although I was inclined to do so.

 A small jon boat on the shore is a very commonplace thing, and mostly it would not need to be tied up at all, just beaching it is sufficient to keep it in place.

Any token sign of not abandoning can be used, a bowline, or the most common, two half hitches, or another common token impediment is a chain and padlock.

But in essence, the knot would not serve any other purpose than a token, that you did not just abandon the boat, but you cared for it in some sense.

So for just a short time ashore, like going to the grocery shop, I would leave the line in the boat, not tying it to anything at all. If it is to be left till the next day or more, I would probably tie with a bowline or two half hitches, just to show that the boat is intended to stay where it is. If tying it there for prolonged periods, like all summer (except for when it is used) I would maybe use chain and padlock, still as a token, that someone cares for this jon boat and wants it to be there when he comes back.
Title: Re: What's the BEST knot to tie of a small jon boat to a big tree on the shore?
Post by: Dan_Lehman on March 30, 2011, 05:47:05 AM
I didn't bite on this one immediately, although I was inclined to do so.

 A small jon boat on the shore is a very commonplace thing,
and mostly it would not need to be tied up at all,
just beaching it is sufficient to keep it in place.
...

But you need to read further, as in a later comment there comes
more to the situation --to wit:

Quote
I can't "beach" the craft if you will. I have to let the boat stay adrift at shore's edge.

I would likely cast a quick, initial *guard* half-hitch
to take up any strain, and then finish with a taut-line h.
itself perhaps finished with a slip-bight slip-knotted.
(But I think that the possible "strain" here is slight,
unless some power-boaters can throw some wake ... .)

--dl*
====
Title: Re: What's the BEST knot to tie of a small jon boat to a big tree on the shore?
Post by: dfred on April 06, 2011, 08:04:38 PM
I can't "beach" the craft if you will. I have to let the boat stay adrift at shore's edge.

I would like cast a quick, initial *guard* half-hitch
to take up any strain, and then finish with a taut-line h.
itself perhaps finished with a slip-bight slip-knotted.
(But I think that the possible "strain" here is slight,
unless some power-boaters can throw some wake ... .)

I do a fair bit of river canoing and the need to tie up still floating boats in moving water is a regular occurrence. This can be due to either an unsuitable grade at the shoreline for beaching or a desire to reduce erosion (in many cases it is both).  And when leading larger groups it can be a simple lack of space at a lunch spot for all the boats to be brought ashore.   I normally paddle a 13' (4m) solo open canoe.  For context below, the painters are 5/8" (16mm) solid braid fine spun polypropylene, often called "Derby" rope in US stores.  It is quite soft and floats.  Even when it is new it holds knots pretty well, and this improves as the surface fuzzes up a little with use.   I use such large rope because this type is not strong for a given size and, due to the river setting, the painters may be called into duty for pulling out a pinned boat.  The only other size available locally was 3/8", and factoring in sun exposure, dirt ingress, and general wear I decided this wasn't sufficient.  If 1/2" was available I'd probably have used that instead.  The large size does make it quite easy on the hands.

I second Dan's suggestion of using a single "guard" half-hitch around the standing part, as it tends to better align the pull on the later rolling hitch if one has passed around a very large anchor object.  If maintaining initial tension is especially desired, I've on occasion put in an awning hitch "guard" after passing around the anchor object (e.g. tree) before finishing with something else further up the standing part to maintain tension on the awning portion.     Using guard hitches like this before running further back up the standing part is also handy when one wants to intentionally use up more line to prevent the end from dangling in the sand or mud.   The loose solid braid rope I use is like a sponge and a dirty painter quickly leads to a dirty boat.

If I'm tying to a tree where the painter barely will reach, I will often use a slipped-buntline hitch tied perpendicularly onto the standing part.   This is basically Sweeney's suggestion above of using a single turn tensionless hitch, but using a BH instead of a 'biner.   (One could also think of it as an abuse of the Corned beef knot ;) ).

One last little trick my dad showed me is tying a double sheet bend to a bundle of long grass in the manner of a heaving line bend.  I can't remember if ABOK shows this, but it wouldn't surprise me.  (nor would it if that's where he learned it.)  Twisting the grass slightly helps.  Adjust the bight of grass to make sure the strain comes evenly onto all the roots when loaded from the expected direction.  This works sort of the same way pulling on a handful of hair isn't as painful if the strain is evenly borne by all the roots -- if some have less slack they tend to get pulled out before the strain comes on the rest.   This is obviously for very light-duty mooring only, but I've used it when there was nothing else to make fast to.


Incidentally, and this is JMHO, many of the rigging problems posted on the forum seem to call more for "applied knotting" tailored to the specific circumstance one encounters in the field, rather than the identification of a single "best knot".   This thread is actually pretty good, but keeping this in mind when framing these discussions could be helpful.

Title: Re: What's the BEST knot to tie of a small jon boat to a big tree on the shore?
Post by: TMCD on April 10, 2011, 12:31:41 AM
We went camping last night and I had this situation present itself again. With the suggestions fresh in my mind from this board, I decided I would use a rolling hitch. It worked like a charm and it's a good thing because it got windy and nasty this morning. I came home to look at the hitch I tied thinking it was a rolling hitch only to find out it was the Magnus Hitch, it's all good though.

I just learned there's two kinds of rolling hitches, along with the Magnus Hitch which is very, very similar. I like the rolling hitch that turns over the S.P. twice and then tucks under the second turn from the other side of the S.P.
Title: Re: What's the BEST knot to tie of a small jon boat to a big tree on the shore?
Post by: Dan_Lehman on April 10, 2011, 04:31:46 PM
I came home to look at the hitch I tied thinking it was a rolling hitch only to find out it was the Magnus Hitch, it's all good though.

I just learned there's two kinds of rolling hitches, along with the Magnus Hitch which is very, very similar.
I like the rolling hitch that turns over the S.P. twice and then tucks under the second turn from the other side of the S.P.

I think that it's safe to say that these knot names are so confused
that we're at a loss (or should think so!) as to which knots you're
referring to --ABOK knot-#s of course can distinguish.

Your cordage might suggest otherwise, but putting in a stopper to
surely secure these knots is a good piece of safety --that closing
half-hitch being less than all so sure, to my mind.


 :)
Title: Re: What's the BEST knot to tie of a small jon boat to a big tree on the shore?
Post by: knot4u on April 11, 2011, 03:08:52 AM
I think this thread has got so much attention because people are bored.