International Guild of Knot Tyers Forum

General => Practical Knots => Topic started by: Hrungnir on February 10, 2011, 12:06:05 AM

Title: Fixed loop for hiking and skiing
Post by: Hrungnir on February 10, 2011, 12:06:05 AM
I'm actually looking for a good all round loop I can use when I'm outdoor hiking and skiing.

The bowline works for most tasks, but it has one major fault - it works loose. I don't wanna tie important equipment like a lanyard to my cell phone or compass with a bowline. Right now I'm using the zeppelin loop. It does the job but, you can't tie it in a hurry and I don't like the combination of many steps and cold fingers ;)

I want a loop which can be tied fast and easily (cold fingers), easy to release but doesn't work loos. Easy to recognize.


My experience so far:

Bowline - works loose
Round turn bowline - it holds better than the original bowline, but in my experience it might work loose still.
Zeppelin loop - too many steps to make the knot
Retreaded figure eight - too many steps to make the knot
Alpine butterfly - in my experience it jams. I also find the knot hard to recognize


I don't have enough experience with the double dragon and perfection loop. Would any of these perform better than the mentioned knots? Do you have other suggestions or comments to the knots above?
Title: Re: Fixed loop for hiking and skiing
Post by: roo on February 10, 2011, 12:25:35 AM
I'm actually looking for a good all round loop I can use when I'm outdoor hiking and skiing.

The bowline works for most tasks, but it has one major fault - it works loose. I don't wanna tie important equipment like a lanyard to my cell phone or compass with a bowline. Right now I'm using the zeppelin loop. It does the job but, you can't tie it in a hurry and I don't like the combination of many steps and cold fingers ;)

I want a loop which can be tied fast and easily (cold fingers), easy to release but doesn't work loos. Easy to recognize.


My experience so far:

Bowline - works loose
Round turn bowline - it holds better than the original bowline, but in my experience it might work loose still.
Zeppelin loop - too many steps to make the knot
Retreaded figure eight - too many steps to make the knot
Alpine butterfly - in my experience it jams. I also find the knot hard to recognize


I don't have enough experience with the double dragon and perfection loop. Would any of these perform better than the mentioned knots? Do you have other suggestions or comments to the knots above?
The Double Dragon loop is quite difficult to tie as end loop, threading through an object (and it can jam when used as a midline loop in certain conditions).  The Perfection Loop might fare a little better in tying as an end loop, but it is a known jammer.  If you want something with a little more security than a Double Bowline, you might experiment with a Water Bowline (http://notableknotindex.webs.com/waterbowline.html).

I'm actually surprised that you're tying and untying your aforementioned items so often.  Maybe a small clip would be worth it to you.

Would you be open to hitches?
Title: Re: Fixed loop for hiking and skiing
Post by: SS369 on February 10, 2011, 12:32:08 AM
"I don't wanna tie important equipment like a lanyard to my cell phone or compass with a bowline."

For those items I personally would make a sling with small cord for each or both(?) and then have the item tied to the attachment points with any number of hitches. Use a cow hitch on both ends of the sling for example. Very simple that way.

Hope that helps.

SS
Title: Re: Fixed loop for hiking and skiing
Post by: roo on February 10, 2011, 12:38:21 AM
"I don't wanna tie important equipment like a lanyard to my cell phone or compass with a bowline."

For those items I personally would make a sling with small cord for each or both(?) and then have the item tied to the attachment points with any number of hitches. Use a cow hitch on both ends of the sling for example. Very simple that way.

Hope that helps.

SS
If he only has access to one end of the attaching cord, he could leave the Zeppelin Loop in place permanently, run it through the lanyard, and put the object through the Zeppelin loop.

If the object's attachment hole/ring is too small to pass a loop knot, a separate small lanyard could be attached (small cord and one bend).
Title: Re: Fixed loop for hiking and skiing
Post by: knot4u on February 10, 2011, 12:47:49 AM
Can you describe your setup a bit more because it's a bit unclear?  Anyway, I have found clever usage of a Cow Hitch or a Bull Hitch to be preferable in many applications involving lanyards and such.  Many times, a simple Cow has caused me to say, "Now, why didn't I think of that before now?"

A Cow (or Bull) may be tied, for example, within a permanent Zeppelin Loop.  Another option is to make a giant loop by tying a some sort of bend (e.g., Zeppelin, Carrick, Butterfly), and then using a Cow somehow to connect what you want.  In the short, the lanyard or whatever is installed and removed via the Cow (or Bull).  These are just general tips as it's unclear what your setup is exactly.

My experience so far:
...
Alpine butterfly - in my experience it jams. I also find the knot hard to recognize
...

I don't like the Butterfly as an end loop.  Anyway, what application made it jam on you?  I have found the Fig 8 Loop to more jam-prone.  Are you sure you're tying the Butterfly correctly?  It is easy to tie incorrectly.  
Title: Re: Fixed loop for hiking and skiing
Post by: Hrungnir on February 10, 2011, 01:07:19 AM
I don't wanna tie important equipment like a lanyard to my cell phone or compass with a bowline.

I'm sorry. This sentence was a bit unclear.

Actually I'm using the zeppelin to tie the lanyard to my jacket, backpack og belt. The other end of the lanyard is attached to the object with whatever knot works for that object.

I've uploaded a picture with a lighter attached to a twine with a double constrictor knot. The other end is attached to the backpack with a zeppelin loop.

(http://bildr.no/thumb/821049.jpeg) (http://bildr.no/view/821049)

I'm a bit paranoid with some of my small stuff equipment. I'm very afraid my cell phone might fall out of my pockets and get lost. Same thing about car keys, pocket knife, lighter and so on. I often use the setup above to make sure nothing fall out of my pockets or I accidentally forget something where I had my last break.
Title: Re: Fixed loop for hiking and skiing
Post by: knot4u on February 10, 2011, 01:14:44 AM
I don't wanna tie important equipment like a lanyard to my cell phone or compass with a bowline.

I'm sorry. This sentence was a bit unclear.

Actually I'm using the zeppelin to tie the lanyard to my jacket, backpack og belt. The other end of the lanyard is attached to the object with whatever knot works for that object.

I've uploaded a picture with a lighter attached to the lanyard with a double constrictor knot. The other end is attached to the backpack with a zeppelin loop.

(http://bildr.no/thumb/821049.jpeg) (http://bildr.no/view/821049)

Right there, here's what I would have done instead:

-Around lighter, tie a Boom Hitch with ends of roughly equal length.
-Connect ends by using a bend (e.g., Zeppelin, Carrick, or Butterfly).  The result is a large loop with the lighter secured via the Boom.
-Connect the large loop to the jacked by using a Cow Hitch (or Bull Hitch).  The result is a setup that's secure and easily removable from your jacket via the Cow.
Title: Re: Fixed loop for hiking and skiing
Post by: roo on February 10, 2011, 01:15:36 AM
I'm sorry. This sentence was a bit unclear.

Actually I'm using the zeppelin to tie the lanyard to my jacket, backpack og belt. The other end of the lanyard is attached to the object with whatever knot works for that object.

I've uploaded a picture with a lighter attached to the lanyard with a double constrictor knot. The other end is attached to the backpack with a zeppelin loop.
In this case, the permanent Zeppelin Loop could pass through the jacket loop, and then the object can be passed through the Zeppelin Loop.
Title: Re: Fixed loop for hiking and skiing
Post by: Hrungnir on February 10, 2011, 02:09:22 AM
I don't like the Butterfly as an end loop.  Anyway, what application made it jam on you?  I have found the Fig 8 Loop to more jam-prone.  Are you sure you're tying the Butterfly correctly?  It is easy to tie incorrectly.  
I'm using tying method number four on this website:
http://www.layhands.com/Knots/Knots_SingleLoops.htm#AlpineButterfly

The overhand knot really bites around the working end and standing end. I can't figure out how to release this knot easily  ???

Quote from: knot4yu
-Around lighter, tie a Boom Hitch with ends of roughly equal length.
The important thing about the binder is that it really bites into the object. That's why I've been using the (double) constrictor this task. The constrictor is simple enough to tie outdoor when it's cold and you don't wanna use too much time on knotting. I don't have any experience with the boom hitch, but are you able to make it bite really hard into the object? Simple and fast to tie?
Title: Re: Fixed loop for hiking and skiing
Post by: Hrungnir on February 10, 2011, 02:14:08 AM
For those items I personally would make a sling with small cord for each or both(?) and then have the item tied to the attachment points with any number of hitches. Use a cow hitch on both ends of the sling for example. Very simple that way.

Quote from: roo
If he only has access to one end of the attaching cord, he could leave the Zeppelin Loop in place permanently, run it through the lanyard, and put the object through the Zeppelin loop.

If the object's attachment hole/ring is too small to pass a loop knot, a separate small lanyard could be attached (small cord and one bend).


Seems like there's an general agreement on these suggestions. Either a sling or ring of a zeppelin loop and attach the lanyards with cow hitches. Can probably attach a mug or a bottle to the backpack in the same manner :)
Title: Re: Fixed loop for hiking and skiing
Post by: Mike on February 10, 2011, 03:24:53 AM
The Double Dragon loop is quite difficult to tie as end loop, threading through an object (and it can jam when used as a midline loop in certain conditions).

Tying the DD is actually extremely simple to tie  around an object.  In fact, I bet I can tie it just as fast if not faster , than any other method.
Title: Re: Fixed loop for hiking and skiing
Post by: knot4u on February 10, 2011, 03:59:48 AM
I understand your dilemma because I'm an avid snowboarder.  Sometimes, it's so cold that it's literally dangerous to have your hands exposed at all.  Based on your need to make these attachments in the cold, I recommend setting things up beforehand so you would only have to tie Cow Hitches out there.  In the cold, I wouldn't even enjoy that otherwise easy task.

I don't like the Butterfly as an end loop.  Anyway, what application made it jam on you?  I have found the Fig 8 Loop to more jam-prone.  Are you sure you're tying the Butterfly correctly?  It is easy to tie incorrectly.  
I'm using tying method number four on this website:
http://www.layhands.com/Knots/Knots_SingleLoops.htm#AlpineButterfly

The overhand knot really bites around the working end and standing end. I can't figure out how to release this knot easily???

I can see how the Butterfly has been difficult to untie from where you were. To untie the Butterfly easily, first, you need to get the Butterfly to look like Pic#7 of Method #1 in that link. You may get to that pic by pulling the ends in opposite directions until the knot takes on that form. However, if the Butterfly is already too tight, it may be difficult to get there. So, you need to get to Pic #7 before you apply loading. However, before you do all this, note that I don't even like the Butterfly as an end loop.
Title: Re: Fixed loop for hiking and skiing
Post by: Dan_Lehman on February 10, 2011, 04:45:48 AM
I'm actually looking for a good all round loop I can use when I'm outdoor hiking and skiing.

The bowline works for most tasks, but it has one major fault - it works loose.
...
I want a loop which can be tied fast and easily (cold fingers), easy to release but doesn't work loos. Easy to recognize.

Knot4U has almost asked the question that everyone's been missing,
but which I'd hope would become more the initial question on the
mind --to move from thinking of "knots" as having unconditional
qualities to realizing that various materials knot in different ways;
so, the question needs to be What is it that you want to knot?
--what material?


And to Roo's
"I'm actually surprised that you're tying and untying your aforementioned items so often."
I say +1 !!  The easy & sure attachment, as has been suggested,
is to have a sling suitable to be inserted through some small
attachment ring and then girth-hitched.

(Btw, you could tie a sling through your jacket hole and then
tie a constrictor or double (no further, though) constrictor
around that cylindrical object --can't do that with a boom hitch
(which is an odd knot to use).)

The bowline can be secured pretty simply, in some materials.

--dl*
====
Title: Re: Fixed loop for hiking and skiing
Post by: knot4u on February 10, 2011, 06:06:58 AM
I have successfully tied a Boom for attaching a rope to items such as a small flashlight, a wrench, an extension cord, a pill capsule and other items.  I may then tie a Girth (i.e., Cow) in the rope to something else, such as a keyring.  A Double Constrictor may work too, but it's usually not my preference.
Title: Re: Fixed loop for hiking and skiing
Post by: dmacdd on February 10, 2011, 08:51:57 AM
I have successfully tied a Boom for attaching a rope to items such as a small flashlight, a wrench, an extension cord, a pill capsule and other items.  I may then tie a Girth (i.e., Cow) in the rope to something else, such as a keyring.  A Double Constrictor may work too, but it's usually not my preference.

I  attach a plastic lighter with an elliptical cross section to each of my spools of nylon cord by a lanyard.  The lanyard is fastened to its lighter with a double constrictor. It works very well, and never seems to come adrift, but I check it each time I use it, of course.
Title: Re: Fixed loop for hiking and skiing
Post by: Hrungnir on February 10, 2011, 02:17:25 PM
I can see how the Butterfly has been difficult to untie from where you were. To untie the Butterfly easily, first, you need to get the Butterfly to look like Pic#7 of Method #1 in that link. You may get to that pic by pulling the ends in opposite directions until the knot takes on that form. However, if the Butterfly is already too tight, it may be difficult to get there. So, you need to get to Pic #7 before you apply loading. However, before you do all this, note that I don't even like the Butterfly as an end loop.
You are absolutley right about the behaviour of the butterfly. It's easier to untie if you mange to pull the ends to make the knot take the "midline" form. I don't know the security of the knot in the "midline" form as an end loop. I realize and agree with you that there are better end loops than the bytterfly.
Title: Re: Fixed loop for hiking and skiing
Post by: Hrungnir on February 10, 2011, 02:38:48 PM
Knot4U has almost asked the question that everyone's been missing,
but which I'd hope would become more the initial question on the
mind --to move from thinking of "knots" as having unconditional
qualities to realizing that various materials knot in different ways;
so, the question needs to be What is it that you want to knot?
--what material?

When going hiking and skiing I'm mostly using the twine you saw on the picture. It's 2mm polyester. I use this line for all kind of tasks. Lanyards, attaching stuff to my jacket or backpack. Organize or packing my stuff. I can also use it to repair some items. I use mostly binding knots, but a good fixed loop might be handy, like a replacement for the zeppelin in the previous discussion

I also bring some thicker line. Probably 1cm nylon. The line is three laid. Right now there's an eye splice in the end of the rope, so I can easily use that as a fixed loop or use it to tie a girth hitch. It's easier to tie a zeppelin on this rope than the twine, but I welcome suggestions for improvement :)

The bowline can be secured pretty simply, in some materials.
I often see people securing the bowline with a double overhand knot. The bowline becomes more difficult to tie and untie because of this. I do prefer the zeppelin loop, or a round turn bowline if working loose is not that big of a concern.
Title: Re: Fixed loop for hiking and skiing
Post by: roo on February 10, 2011, 03:44:55 PM
The Double Dragon loop is quite difficult to tie as end loop, threading through an object (and it can jam when used as a midline loop in certain conditions).

Tying the DD is actually extremely simple to tie  around an object.  In fact, I bet I can tie it just as fast if not faster , than any other method.

This is probably a good topic for a new thread.  Every time I ask someone to show a supposed quick and easy way to tie the Double Dragon around an object, I get a diagram of a convoluted, error-prone method.
Title: Re: Fixed loop for hiking and skiing
Post by: SS369 on February 10, 2011, 03:57:01 PM
Here's as good as any I've found for the DD loop Roo > http://www.Layhands.com/Knots/Knots_SingleLoops.htm#DoubleDragon (http://www.Layhands.com/Knots/Knots_SingleLoops.htm#DoubleDragon)

Method 2

SS
Title: Re: Fixed loop for hiking and skiing
Post by: roo on February 10, 2011, 04:00:20 PM
Here's as good as any I've found for the DD loop Roo > http://www.Layhands.com/Knots/Knots_SingleLoops.htm#DoubleDragon (http://www.Layhands.com/Knots/Knots_SingleLoops.htm#DoubleDragon)

I was hoping no one would suggest that.  That is exactly the convoluted, error-prone method I was thinking of.
Title: Re: Fixed loop for hiking and skiing
Post by: dmacdd on February 10, 2011, 04:13:28 PM
I can see how the Butterfly has been difficult to untie from where you were. To untie the Butterfly easily, first, you need to get the Butterfly to look like Pic#7 of Method #1 in that link. You may get to that pic by pulling the ends in opposite directions until the knot takes on that form. However, if the Butterfly is already too tight, it may be difficult to get there. So, you need to get to Pic #7 before you apply loading. However, before you do all this, note that I don't even like the Butterfly as an end loop.
You are absolutley right about the behaviour of the butterfly. It's easier to untie if you mange to pull the ends to make the knot take the "midline" form. I don't know the security of the knot in the "midline" form as an end loop. I realize and agree with you that there are better end loops than the bytterfly.

I like the butterfly as an end loop, but to make it less jammable, I  tie it as an end loop, not as a butterfly loop that happens to be at the end of the cord. To to this you tie the end to the bight as if making a butterfly bend. The natural working   form of the knot is the familiar butterfly, but with the parts of the cord playing different parts. Stress on the loop keeps it in this form, so there is no need to transform it back into butterfly form to untie it. See my web page on this at http://davidmdelaney.com/alpine-butterfly-loop/Alpine-butterfly-bend-loop.html. Also see the attached picture.
Title: Re: Fixed loop for hiking and skiing
Post by: SS369 on February 10, 2011, 04:31:45 PM
Quote: "I was hoping no one would suggest that.  That is exactly the convoluted, error-prone method I was thinking of.

I'm sorry Roo.
But I have absolutely no problem tying it the way that is shown.
Can you explain to me why/how it is error prone to you?

SS
Title: Re: Fixed loop for hiking and skiing
Post by: roo on February 10, 2011, 05:34:26 PM
I'm sorry Roo.
But I have absolutely no problem tying it the way that is shown.
Can you explain to me why/how it is error prone to you?
Just to be clear to everyone, we're looking at Method #2 (http://www.layhands.com/Knots/Knots_SingleLoops.htm#DoubleDragon).

Picture 2:  Which way is the coil made?  There are about four ways.  Nothing forces the correct option.

Picture 3:  Which way do you flip the coil over?  How is it "flipped"?  Nothing forces the correct way.  Our odds of error are getting very high, even at this early stage.

Picture 5:  Which way does the cord wrap around the knot body/skeleton?  Nothing forces the right option.  

Picture 6:  You have many easy ways to mis-tuck the ends.

In my opinion, this method is several steps beyond being memorable and it is ripe for error even among knot nerds.  This method would fail the one-month or several month mental fast test, where you see if you can tie the knot from memory after not using or thinking about the method for the allotted time period.  I think even one week after studying the method would be too long.
Title: Re: Fixed loop for hiking and skiing
Post by: knot4u on February 10, 2011, 06:03:41 PM
I can see how the Butterfly has been difficult to untie from where you were. To untie the Butterfly easily, first, you need to get the Butterfly to look like Pic#7 of Method #1 in that link. You may get to that pic by pulling the ends in opposite directions until the knot takes on that form. However, if the Butterfly is already too tight, it may be difficult to get there. So, you need to get to Pic #7 before you apply loading. However, before you do all this, note that I don't even like the Butterfly as an end loop.
You are absolutley right about the behaviour of the butterfly. It's easier to untie if you mange to pull the ends to make the knot take the "midline" form. I don't know the security of the knot in the "midline" form as an end loop. I realize and agree with you that there are better end loops than the bytterfly.

I like the butterfly as an end loop, but to make it less jammable, I  tie it as an end loop, not as a butterfly loop that happens to be at the end of the cord. To to this you tie the end to the bight as if making a butterfly bend. The natural working   form of the knot is the familiar butterfly, but with the parts of the cord playing different parts. Stress on the loop keeps it in this form, so there is no need to transform it back into butterfly form to untie it. See my web page on this at http://davidmdelaney.com/alpine-butterfly-loop/Alpine-butterfly-bend-loop.htm. Also see the attached picture.

Hey, that's a good looking loop.  I see your point.  If you have enough data, please compare that loop to the 2-Wrap Bowline and the Zeppelin Loop.  Or do you know of a thread?

By the way, that link did not work for me.
Title: Re: Fixed loop for hiking and skiing
Post by: roo on February 10, 2011, 06:22:19 PM
By the way, that link did not work for me.
David just left off the final L.   Remember this thread?:  

http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1878.0
Title: Re: Fixed loop for hiking and skiing
Post by: Hrungnir on February 10, 2011, 06:23:13 PM
By the way, that link did not work for me.

This is the correct address for dmacdd link:
http://davidmdelaney.com/alpine-butterfly-loop/Alpine-butterfly-bend-loop.html

With some practice it might be easier and faster to tie than the zeppelin loop. The knot is recognizable if you already know the bight version. When you put tension on the line you won't get the version/structure which jams. Seems like a good end loop :)
Title: Re: Fixed loop for hiking and skiing
Post by: SS369 on February 10, 2011, 07:20:37 PM
Good day Roo.

First, I was not recommending this loop for the thread's answer. I was merely pointing to a series of pictures that showed, to me, a simple method (#2) of tying it around an object.

For me the method is very easy and don't see a problem. Everyone's learning curve is different.

Memory is a whole different story! Passing the one hour/day/week/month test(s) is a challenge for sure.
How many tying methods for knots I barely or just don't tie would I need to refresh myself on? Good question!

All that said, I think if this loop fulfills someone's need then they can learn it...... and maybe even remember it.  ;-)
Title: Re: Fixed loop for hiking and skiing
Post by: SS369 on February 10, 2011, 07:30:09 PM
Good day knot4u.

Yes, I agree with you that the DD loop can jam and quickly too, but it is pretty darn secure for a narrow leg loop.

Not my pick for the easiest to tie with cold hands and gloves on.

Adding a slip as the final tuck may help. Maybe even a double tucked slip.

SS
Title: Re: Fixed loop for hiking and skiing
Post by: roo on February 10, 2011, 07:39:00 PM
OK, so the Double Dragon is pretty freakin' hard to untie once there's a heavy load on it.  Is there a trick?
While I don't generally recommend the loop for various reasons, it does seem to resist jamming IF it is only loaded as an end loop, with no tension on what is usually the free end.

If you've found some dressing that permits jamming as an end loop, perhaps you could post a diagram or image of it (in a new thread... we've hijacked this thread too much as it is).
Title: Re: Fixed loop for hiking and skiing
Post by: Dan_Lehman on February 10, 2011, 08:08:03 PM
For me the method is very easy and don't see a problem. Everyone's learning curve is different.
Quote from: roo
Which way is the coil made?  There are about four ways.
Nothing forces the correct option.
Which way do you flip the coil over?  How is it "flipped"?
Nothing forces the correct way.
Our odds of error are getting very high, even at this early stage.
...

I know what everybody's thinking, now : How does Roo do shoes?!
Which foot to do first --there are about two of them, (and that's 4 laces!)
 ...

 :D

Both the particular "Double Dragon" AND the tying method shown
by the Layhands site are less than optimal, IMO.  Given the "doubled"
aspect, though, that knot isn't bad, but taking the tail wraps in the
other direction yields a much better knot on the first pass, with then
the 2nd as added assurance vs. necessity.

The initial coil around the finger is easily done, and only one way,
given the hand and gravity.
But then the next step should be to sorta *slap* the tail smack
into this coil and see that as the *inspiration* for turning up the
coil to form the crossing-knot form.
And after this is done, tail extending leftwards/S.Partwards with
length sufficient for wrapping, the wrapping can only go in
one direction --opposite to Layhands's direction, hence.

None of which is much easy in the fine-twine-cold-fingers
circumstance of the OP.  But not much is, frankly.

--dl*
====
Title: Re: Fixed loop for hiking and skiing
Post by: roo on February 10, 2011, 08:36:15 PM
I know what everybody's thinking, now : How does Roo do shoes?!
Which foot to do first --there are about two of them, (and that's 4 laces!)
This mockery is coming from someone who is surprised that people get his written instructions wrong 99% of the time.
Title: Re: Fixed loop for hiking and skiing
Post by: Dan_Lehman on February 10, 2011, 08:47:52 PM
I can see how the Butterfly has been difficult to untie from where you were. To untie the Butterfly easily, first, you need to get the Butterfly to look like Pic#7 of Method #1 in that link.

It's a shame that the both-ends-pulled-opposite-eye formation was
put forward under the name "butterfly" --it's really a rather different
beast, much as the lanyard-knot form of #1452 in #781/2 are.  That
they are topologically equivalent is small consolation to behavioral difference.

I like the butterfly as an end loop, but to make it less jammable, I  tie it as an end loop,
not as a butterfly loop that happens to be at the end of the cord.
To to this you ...

[SEE : ] http://davidmdelaney.com/alpine-butterfly-loop/Alpine-butterfly-bend-loop.html (http://davidmdelaney.com/alpine-butterfly-loop/Alpine-butterfly-bend-loop.html). Also see the attached picture.

Will it be disquieting to point out that "there are about six ways"
in which the "butterfly" can emerge from its cocoon (excluding Layhands's) ?!

The tails can be "parallel", uncrossed; or they can be crossed in either of
two ways; and for each of these orientations there is the choice of
which end to load, to make S.Part !

Here are two crossings.  We can refer to one overhand component
as taking the "pretzel" form, the other the half- or timber-hitch form.
That shown by David's orange rope takes the timber-hitch form, in the
*split* crossing orientation (my quick term, meaning that this S.Part
doesn't bite & draw its own tail but the opposite side's tail (such as we
can view them qua "tails" for the moment)).

See attached photos, fresh from the SDHCard.

--dl*
====
Title: Re: Fixed loop for hiking and skiing
Post by: knot4u on February 10, 2011, 08:50:50 PM
I know what everybody's thinking, now : How does Roo do shoes?!
Which foot to do first --there are about two of them, (and that's 4 laces!)
This mockery is coming from someone who is surprised that people get his written instructions wrong 99% of the time.

He got you there, Dan.  :D
Title: Re: Fixed loop for hiking and skiing
Post by: alpineer on February 10, 2011, 09:07:31 PM
 
I know what everybody's thinking, now : How does Roo do shoes?!
Which foot to do first --there are about two of them, (and that's 4 laces!)

AND I heard he tries to tie his shoes with his beloved Zeppelin Bend but ends up with False Alpine Butterfly Bends every time! :D
 
Title: Re: Fixed loop for hiking and skiing
Post by: SS369 on February 10, 2011, 09:21:07 PM
Gentleman, let's stay on topic please. Good natured as it maybe we're straying too far afield.

Anyone have a better solution for Hrungnir original request?

SS
Title: Re: Fixed loop for hiking and skiing
Post by: Hrungnir on February 10, 2011, 11:39:30 PM
I've finally put the discussed knots to the test!

I did put on my wool mittons and picked a 2mm twine and a 1cm line. The loops I tried to tie was the bowline, zeppelin loop, butterfly bend loop and double dragon.

I was able to tie all of the knots with the 1cm line. The double dragon was a bit more difficult to untie than the other knots.

2mm twine:
- Bowline: Had two attempts, because the half hitch dissolved on the first attempt. I managed to tie the bowline on second attempt.
- Zeppelin: Passing the working end through two loops in the final step was too difficult.
- Butterfly: Passing the working end on the right place inside that overhand knot in the final step was too difficult and confusing
- Double Dragon: I managed to tie this knot in first attempt. The length of the twine was the only concern. No starting knot made tying easier and the fact that I could tie the knot around my mitten.

I didn't try the perfection loop nor the retreaded figure eight. I did the tying indoor, so no cold weather, rain, snow. wind or cold fingers to influence the result.
Title: Re: Fixed loop for hiking and skiing
Post by: roo on February 11, 2011, 01:24:56 AM
I've finally put the discussed knots to the test!
What happened to just leaving the end loop permanently undisturbed (http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=2836.msg16957#msg16957) and using object tucking such as:
(http://globalflyfisher.com/fishbetter/reel_backing.gif)?
Title: Re: Fixed loop for hiking and skiing
Post by: Dan_Lehman on February 11, 2011, 08:08:32 AM
It's still unclear to me what sort of things you're attaching to
--in detail.  I.e., why the method Roo continues to ask about
in not possible, and so on.

For it might be possible to build your attachment structures
using a stopper knot.  Brion Toss names a simple hitch
"Knute hitch" in which a bight is put through a small opening,
then the line's tail (stoppered, would be wanted, for you) is
tucked though the bight, which then is drawn back through
the opening to nip the tail and hold (but not able to pull the
tail through!).  With a nice knob of a stopper, this seems to
be something that one could manipulate with gloved hands
--just grabbing the knob, to pull out cord to untie, and the
simple tucking through a big bight (again, assuming you have
such material available) is easy tying to effect in gloves.


. . . beyond the question of needing to tie/untie such things . . .

--dl*
====
Title: Re: Fixed loop for hiking and skiing
Post by: rusty427 on February 11, 2011, 11:22:16 AM
Hi Guys

I love that Double Dragon, But it is a mongrel to tie around something, I use this method, even so it takes practice. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Df7pYB2T6vU

The perfection loop is a good choice, though my old man showed me one the other day, again I don't know its name, but it starts like a Perfection loop, so its easy to tie around something, but just stick a half hitch to finish instead of looping through. It looks good and is easy to tie and undo.

Perfection loop on the right.
(http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii253/rusty427/DSCF5739.jpg)
rusty
Title: Re: Fixed loop for hiking and skiing
Post by: Hrungnir on February 11, 2011, 03:03:39 PM
I've finally put the discussed knots to the test!
What happened to just leaving the end loop permanently undisturbed (http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=2836.msg16957#msg16957) and using object tucking

Hei Roo!

I agree this is a good solution for attaching small objects to backpack and clothings. There were also some good suggestions about cow hitching a permanent loop too.

My original question was a good allround or general purpose fixed loop for outdoor activities like skiing and hiking. The bowline is a simple and easy knot to tie, but it works loose. Attaching objects to backpack and clothings was an example of a situation where this behavior is unacceptable (loss of important equipment).
Title: Re: Fixed loop for hiking and skiing
Post by: Hrungnir on February 11, 2011, 03:13:46 PM
Hrungnir, thank you for your feedback.  I'm not sure if you know, but there are at least 3 distinct methods for tying a Bowline.  The good old Bowline is convenient to tie.  If you can make it work with different rope material or whatever, it may be worth the effort for mere convenience.  I know it's cool to venture off into other knots, but really the Bowline is popular for good reasons.

Anyway, let's back up and think again about your situation here.  Help me understand something.  You still seem to be wanting to tie these loops with gloves on in the cold.  Well, that doesn't make sense to me because there's no way you can untie these knots with gloves on.  So, whatever you can't untie easily outdoors should be saved for tying indoors where it's warm.  That's how I see it anyway.  I wish you good luck with getting loose a tight Double Dragon when it's 15 degrees below zero.

I'll go back to my suggestion above.  Actually, I'll revise my suggestion to say this is what I would do.  I would tie whatever knots I can tie indoors in the warm.  I would save the Girth (Cow) for outdoors.  I believe I can tie and untie a Girth while wearing gloves.  If not, I can take off the gloves briefly, and I can tie a Girth within a few seconds while I have my gloves off.

Yes, I know you both have the one hand and lightning method for the bowline. I'm not sure if the lightning method would have helped me, but the twine was too short to use the one hand method.

About the mittens: When it's really cold, I don't wanna take off my mittens if I don't have to, but it's not a demand. If I can tie the knot with my mittens on, I can also tie it with frozen hands. I don't wanna tie any knot on a 2mm twine wearing mittens outdoor though :P Good point about untying. Untying will become a lot more difficult when it's a jammed knot in cold, snowy, windy weather.

The experiment was nice for learning though. Some forum members thought it would be difficult to tie the double dragon in difficult conditions, while I myself thought the Alpine Butterfly End Loop would be easy ;)
Title: Re: Fixed loop for hiking and skiing
Post by: Hrungnir on February 11, 2011, 03:14:32 PM
I've finally put the discussed knots to the test!
What happened to just leaving the end loop permanently undisturbed (http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=2836.msg16957#msg16957) and using object tucking
Hei Roo!

I agree this is a good solution for attaching small objects to backpack and clothings. There were also some good suggestions about cow hitching to a permanent loop too.

My original question was a good allround or general purpose fixed loop for outdoor activities like skiing and hiking. The bowline is a simple and easy knot to tie, but it works loose. Attaching objects to backpack and clothings was an example of a situation where this behavior is unacceptable (loss of important equipment).
Title: Re: Fixed loop for hiking and skiing
Post by: Dan_Lehman on February 11, 2011, 06:24:16 PM
I love that Double Dragon, But it is a mongrel to tie around something,
I use this method, even so it takes practice. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Df7pYB2T6vU
...
rusty

Rusty, you'll do well to follow my tying advice above vis-a-vis
the method shown in the video (and by the Layhands site).
You simply lay the tail across the loop formed in Step-1,
and then fold the loop around,
after which your tail is ready to make those wraps in the
opposite direction --which gives a viable knot on the FIRST
wrap, bolstered by the 2nd (whereas the video requires the
2nd wrap in order to stabilize that other-direction wrapping).

--dl*
====
Title: Re: Fixed loop for hiking and skiing
Post by: sbachar on February 11, 2011, 06:47:44 PM
For some of these objects, those with permanent rings or attachment points, would a slipped buntline work?
Title: Re: Fixed loop for hiking and skiing
Post by: Hrungnir on February 11, 2011, 07:18:19 PM
(http://globalflyfisher.com/fishbetter/reel_backing.gif)?

I've now tried this setup, roo.

It works pretty well as long as you are attaching one object only. If you attaching more than one object, you will have to thread all the objects through the lanyard of the new object. Cow hitches works better for multiple objects.

I tied a Jug Sling Hitch to my water bottle and used roos method for attaching it to a permanent loop. The method was superb! But again: one item per permanent loop also here.

Quote from: sbachar
For some of these objects, those with permanent rings or attachment points, would a slipped buntline work?
Yes, you can probably knot either Slipped Buntline Hitches or Siberian Hitches to these permanent loops. But I would prefer these hitches to connect items to my backpack and not clothings.

Title: Re: Fixed loop for hiking and skiing
Post by: roo on February 11, 2011, 07:28:24 PM
I've now tried this setup, roo.

It works pretty well as long as you are attaching one object only. If you attaching more than one object, you will have to thread all the objects through the lanyard of the new object. Cow hitches works better for multiple objects.

I tied a Jug Sling Hitch to my water bottle and used roos method for attaching it to a permanent loop. The method was superb! But again: one item per permanent loop also here.
I'm a little unclear on your new multiple item setup, but I would think that you'd prefer to have your cell phone and your compass on separate cords, so that you don't have to remove both even if you want to remove only one.

Maybe you could be specific on the objects you have in mind.
Title: Re: Fixed loop for hiking and skiing
Post by: Mike on February 11, 2011, 07:29:30 PM
Hi Guys

I love that Double Dragon, But it is a mongrel to tie around something, I use this method, even so it takes practice. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Df7pYB2T6vU

The perfection loop is a good choice, though my old man showed me one the other day, again I don't know its name, but it starts like a Perfection loop, so its easy to tie around something, but just stick a half hitch to finish instead of looping through. It looks good and is easy to tie and undo.

Perfection loop on the right.
(http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii253/rusty427/DSCF5739.jpg)
rusty




Once you have tied the Double Dragon like this a few times it becomes simple.  This is the method i use and i can tie it in less than 20 sconds.
Title: Re: Fixed loop for hiking and skiing
Post by: roo on February 11, 2011, 07:38:45 PM
Once you have tied the Double Dragon like this a few times it becomes simple. 
Most good knot tying methods allow me to go years without tying them, and yet still remain memorable.  I find it telling that after only a few hours, I could not recall this tying method for the Double Dragon as an end loop around an object.  If I use the on-the-bight method, things are OK.  Would you be willing to go a month or two without tying the Double Dragon to see how your retain the method in the video?
Title: Re: Fixed loop for hiking and skiing
Post by: rusty427 on February 12, 2011, 12:23:18 AM
I love that Double Dragon, But it is a mongrel to tie around something,
I use this method, even so it takes practice. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Df7pYB2T6vU
...
rusty

Rusty, you'll do well to follow my tying advice above vis-a-vis
the method shown in the video (and by the Layhands site).
You simply lay the tail across the loop formed in Step-1,
and then fold the loop around,
after which your tail is ready to make those wraps in the
opposite direction --which gives a viable knot on the FIRST
wrap, bolstered by the 2nd (whereas the video requires the
2nd wrap in order to stabilize that other-direction wrapping).

--dl*
====

Thanks Dan, that is a great improvment to this method, I have implemented it to my method.
Good show!
rusty
Title: Re: Fixed loop for hiking and skiing
Post by: Mike on February 12, 2011, 03:12:42 AM
Once you have tied the Double Dragon like this a few times it becomes simple. 
Most good knot tying methods allow me to go years without tying them, and yet still remain memorable.  I find it telling that after only a few hours, I could not recall this tying method for the Double Dragon as an end loop around an object.  If I use the on-the-bight method, things are OK.  Would you be willing to go a month or two without tying the Double Dragon to see how your retain the method in the video?

I guess everyone has a differnt ability to remember things.   I had not tied it in well over a year and was still able to remember it.  But thats just me,  YMMV.
Title: Re: Fixed loop for hiking and skiing
Post by: Dan_Lehman on February 12, 2011, 05:49:16 AM
I love that Double Dragon, But it is a mongrel to tie around something,
I use this method, even so it takes practice. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Df7pYB2T6vU
...
rusty

Rusty, you'll do well to follow my tying advice above vis-a-vis
the method shown in the video (and by the Layhands site).
You simply lay the tail across the loop formed in Step-1,
and then fold the loop around,
after which your tail is ready to make those wraps in the
opposite direction --which gives a viable knot on the FIRST
wrap, bolstered by the 2nd (whereas the video requires the
2nd wrap in order to stabilize that other-direction wrapping).

--dl*
====

Thanks Dan, that is a great improvment to this method, I have implemented it to my method.
Good show!
rusty

Note that it's a not just an improved method (what I said,
in full), but a different --though similar-- knot.  And it's
a knot that with but a single wrap is more stable than the other.

Note that rather than "across", the better guide is "above",
running parallel with the other eye leg.  Then the fold of the
loop around should see these eye legs in good position for
the one to be wrapped.

Here is such (single-wrap) knot, found *in the wild* (and I suppose
used seriously, not as some peculiarity), along with a bowline.

--dl*
====