International Guild of Knot Tyers Forum

General => Practical Knots => Topic started by: ibu on January 31, 2011, 02:19:44 PM

Title: The best three-strand terminal knot for rope for japanese bondage (shibari)?
Post by: ibu on January 31, 2011, 02:19:44 PM
I'm looking for the best three-strand terminal knot for rope for japanese bondage (shibari).

Details:

purposejapanese bondage (shibari)
rope fiberjute
rope diameter5-6mm
rope typethree-strand
whippingno [1]
knot typethree-strand terminal knot
knot durabilityhigh [2]
knot sizebulkier than ABoK#684, not bulkier than ABoK#693 [3]
outcoming strandsclosely together [4]

[1] for esthetic reasons

[2] even without a whipping and with washing in a machine

[3] it allows to join another rope fast and easily

[4] all strands should form kind of a brush

The traditional terminal knot on ropes for shibari is an overhand knot.
An alternative terminal knot which one could see often is ABoK#684 (two wall knots).

Disadvantages of ABoK#684:
It's volume is not large enough. It works to join another rope, but it would be nicer to have a little more volume. Not much more. Just a little.
The stability during days or weeks of usage or after washing the rope is not the best.

Which three-strand terminal knot, please, do you recommend (and why)?

Thanks a lot.
(And sorry for my poor English.)

I found one three-strand terminal knot, which is called "thistle knot" by the photographer:
http://www.bindme.nl/threeends2.jpg

This name does not exist in the ABoK.

Do you know anything about a knot with this name?
Title: Re: The best terminal knot for rope for japanese bondage (shibari)?
Post by: Rrok007 on January 31, 2011, 02:57:14 PM
Man rope knot or matthew walker knot.
Title: Re: The best terminal knot for rope for japanese bondage (shibari)?
Post by: ibu on January 31, 2011, 03:51:51 PM
Quote from: Rrok007 on January 31, 2011, 02:57:14 PM
Man rope knot
ABoK#847 ?

Quote from: Rrok007 on January 31, 2011, 02:57:14 PM
matthew walker knot.
ABoK#683, right?

Which features mark this terminal knot for you as the best terminal knot?
Which advantages do you see, comparing it to others, please?
Title: Re: The best terminal knot for rope for japanese bondage (shibari)?
Post by: SS369 on January 31, 2011, 04:17:59 PM
Hi ibu and welcome.

For a stopper/terminal knot the best that comes to my mind is the Ashley's Stopper Knot or Oysterman's Stopper or ABOK #526.
It is bulky enough for most any task of stoppering and so very easy to tie. Dress it tightly and I surmise it will pass your tests.

If it needed to be made "permanent" I would think you could pass a thread through it.

SS
Title: Re: The best terminal knot for rope for japanese bondage (shibari)?
Post by: ibu on January 31, 2011, 04:29:29 PM
Quote from: SS369 on January 31, 2011, 04:17:59 PM


For a stopper/terminal knot the best that comes to my mind is the Ashley's Stopper Knot or Oysterman's Stopper or ABOK #526.
Thanks for your hint.

But the (single-strand) #526 is to bulky.

I'm looking for a multi-strand terminal knot.
Title: Re: The best terminal knot for rope for japanese bondage (shibari)?
Post by: Rrok007 on January 31, 2011, 06:30:34 PM
Quote from: ibu on January 31, 2011, 03:51:51 PM
Quote from: Rrok007 on January 31, 2011, 02:57:14 PM
Man rope knot
ABoK#847 ?

Quote from: Rrok007 on January 31, 2011, 02:57:14 PM
matthew walker knot.
ABoK#683, right?

Which features mark this terminal knot for you as the best terminal knot?
Which advantages do you see, comparing it to others, please?


Well, I'm know what you're looking for because I have similar interests. The advantage is that they both look nice, they aren't bulky, and they prevent unravelling.
SS, just so that you know, ibu's looking more for a knot to finish the ends, not an actual stopper knot. Hence his use of "terminal". With Shbari, you want a knot at the ends of the rope to prevent unravelling more than to prevent it from sliding through an opening.
I am curious why whipping the ends its not an option? Are you looking to have some fraying/unravelling at the ends for a tasselled look?
Title: Re: The best three-strand terminal knot for rope for japanese bondage (shibari)?
Post by: SS369 on January 31, 2011, 07:26:48 PM
The Footrope knot seems best of class to me now that I know that it is not a stopper knot that is needed. The strands exit the knot in a bundle that could be left to frizz.

Searching for the above mentioned "thistle knot" in Google images will take you to a few sites that deal with this subject and I'll just refrain from posting direct links. ;-)


I think this will be better to serve the forum in the Decorative section.

SS
Title: Re: The best terminal knot for rope for japanese bondage (shibari)?
Post by: ibu on January 31, 2011, 07:51:38 PM
Quote from: Rrok007
[ABoK#847 and ABoK#683]The advantage is that they both look nice, they aren't bulky, and they prevent unravelling.
I still do not know, which knot do you mean with "Man rope knot". There are several. The #847 is (a lot to) bulky.
The #683 is nice, yes.
But it seems it is quite difficult to form it nicely.
And to be honest, I prefer the appearance of the #693 (Diamond Knot) - which is difficult to form as well.

I mentioned the "thistle knot" with the hope, there will be some comments on it.
I still do not know how it is to bind. But I suppose it is a combination of one crown and one following wall.
That combination looks as nice as the #693, is easier to bind and the outcoming strands are more closely together.

In shibari the end knots have two functions: Prevention of unravelling and stopping a joined rope.
(When I find a picture of this type of join, I will post it.)


Quote from: Rrok007
I am curious why whipping the ends its not an option? Are you looking to have some fraying/unravelling at the ends for a tasselled look?
Mainly it is my personal esthetic decision.
But it seems that - as well - in traditionel shibari they will never use whippings.

And yes, I like the tasselled look of the strands (2cm) behind a terminal knot.
Title: Re: The best three-strand terminal knot for rope for japanese bondage (shibari)?
Post by: ibu on January 31, 2011, 08:04:21 PM
Quote from: SS369 on January 31, 2011, 07:26:48 PM
The Footrope knot seems best of class to me now that I know that it is not a stopper knot that is needed.
Rrok007 missunderstood me.

The knot has two functions: prevention of unravelling and stopping.

If anyone knows, if the "thistle knot" has a number in the ABoK, please let me know.

If anyone finds a clear and explaining picture of the knot ...
Title: Re: The best three-strand terminal knot for rope for japanese bondage (shibari)?
Post by: SS369 on January 31, 2011, 09:29:09 PM
Looking into the "thistle knot" further it seems that it is a Footrope knot after all.
Here is a link to a site that has a good graphic of the tying of it.  http://www.ropeworks.biz/archive/footrope.html (http://www.ropeworks.biz/archive/footrope.html)

Basically a crown knot with a wall knot under it around the rope and then tuck the ends through the center of the crown knot and dress tightly.

Hope this helps you.

SS
Title: Re: The best three-strand terminal knot for rope for japanese bondage (shibari)?
Post by: ibu on January 31, 2011, 09:52:39 PM
Quote from: SS369 on January 31, 2011, 09:29:09 PM
Looking into the "thistle knot" further it seems that it is a Footrope knot after all.
Here is a link to a site that has a good graphic of the tying of it.  http://www.ropeworks.biz/archive/footrope.html (http://www.ropeworks.biz/archive/footrope.html)
Thanks a lot. :)
That's exactly what I supposed, the knot is tied - and what I tried here.

It is equivalent to ABoK#696. In the Ashley the way to bind it is different to the way which is shown on the website "ropeworks.biz". But the result is the same.

What do you think about the durability of this knot - compared to other terminal knots of equal bulkiness?


Title: Re: The best three-strand terminal knot for rope for japanese bondage (shibari)?
Post by: SS369 on January 31, 2011, 11:42:10 PM
You're welcome ibu,

I personally think the durability is very high, but that depends on the severity of abuse to it.
Dressing it incrementally tight will work best

If it would not detract from the look or the function, using a sealer/coating (varnish or something else) could improve the longevity.

SS
Title: Re: The best three-strand terminal knot for rope for japanese bondage (shibari)?
Post by: ibu on February 01, 2011, 12:06:59 AM
@SS369

Varnish does not fit to the esthetic of the whole thing (IMHO).
Title: Re: The best three-strand terminal knot for rope for japanese bondage (shibari)?
Post by: Rrok007 on February 02, 2011, 03:13:19 PM
Quote from: ibu on January 31, 2011, 08:04:21 PM
Quote from: SS369 on January 31, 2011, 07:26:48 PM
The Footrope knot seems best of class to me now that I know that it is not a stopper knot that is needed.
Rrok007 missunderstood me.

The knot has two functions: prevention of unravelling and stopping.

If anyone knows, if the "thistle knot" has a number in the ABoK, please let me know.

If anyone finds a clear and explaining picture of the knot ...



Sorry about that. I'm curious though, what style are you practicing? Typically when I've seen reference to "shibari" in reference to eastern styles,  it tends towars fewer "knots" in the sense of things like overhand and square knots and more reliant on what would be more of a friction wrap.
Title: Re: The best three-strand terminal knot for rope for japanese bondage (shibari)?
Post by: ibu on February 02, 2011, 03:29:31 PM
Quote from: Rrok007
I'm curious though, what style are you practicing?
I'm a beginner. At three different places I learned the same from three different longtime practioners of shibari kinbaku (japanese bondage):
The knots at the end are neccessary to join the next rope. Then their function is a stopper knot.

I'm sorry I could not find a photo of that very simple join. If I will find one, I will post a link.

Quote from: Rrok007
Typically when I've seen reference to "shibari" in reference to eastern styles,  it tends towars fewer "knots" in the sense of things like overhand and square knots
That's exactly my cognition.
Title: Re: The best three-strand terminal knot for rope for japanese bondage (shibari)?
Post by: Rrok007 on February 02, 2011, 03:34:22 PM
Ah. Okay. Never mind. I totoally understand why you need a stopper knot before. As I seem to recall, typically when adding the second piece of rope, you use a cow hitch/lark's head knot. Everything makes sense know. I beleive SS393 indicated the "thistle knot" you found was actually a manrope knot. That should do you well, or a three strand matthew walker knot would be another handsome way to finish the ends. I'm considering it.
Title: Re: The best three-strand terminal knot for rope for japanese bondage (shibari)?
Post by: ibu on February 02, 2011, 05:50:16 PM
Quote from: Rrok007 on February 02, 2011, 03:34:22 PM
As I seem to recall, typically when adding the second piece of rope, you use a cow hitch/lark's head knot.
Thanks, yes the "lark's head" ABoK#5  could be used to explain the way of adding the second rope to the first.
The second rope is "like the stick".

To be honest:
The way to add the rope results in an ugly and bulky "something".
Sure, it's fast and simple.

I don't know if there are other - and better - ways to add a rope - when you use the technique of a "double applied rope" like it is typical for shibari.
Title: Re: The best three-strand terminal knot for rope for japanese bondage (shibari)?
Post by: Rrok007 on February 02, 2011, 06:17:21 PM
Depends on how far from "traditional" you're willing to stray.

The nice and practical part about the lark's head/cow hitch is that it doesn't eat up much rope.

If you're more concerned with aesthetics than tradition, then I would suggest take a look at a number of different bends and splicing techniques. I know that in Des Pawson's book, he shows how to make a perpendicular splice amongst other kinds of splicing.
Bends are specifically designed for joining two different lengths of rope, so you could always look at thouse to see if there's one more aesthetically pleasing.
Title: Re: The best three-strand terminal knot for rope for japanese bondage (shibari)?
Post by: ibu on February 02, 2011, 06:36:40 PM
@Rrok007

Yes, indeed, the "shibari-join" does not eat up much rope. That's an advantage.

Can you please post a link to a picture of the bend or the splice you are talking about. Or a number in the ABoK.

Otherwise it is difficult to make sure, that there are no missunderstandings.

Let's make one thing fix for the discussion:
Each rope is 8m long and is used "double as a 4m rope".
Title: Re: The best three-strand terminal knot for rope for japanese bondage (shibari)?
Post by: Rrok007 on February 03, 2011, 03:16:44 PM
Well I tried doing a search for splices and perpendicular splices and couldn't find a good image. I'll have to see if I can find a scan or something. Or see if you can find a copy of Des Pawson's Guide to Knots. the basics of it is that the three strands are spliced though the other rope at a right angle. In my vision, all you'd have to do is splice a small length through, then tie it off with a simple Matthew Walker kot, or possibly a more simple stop knot, such as a wall and crown combo. This would use up very little rope, perhaps close to the amount used by the larks head. And it shows a wider degree of rope skills.

However, considering that your using the rope doubled over (not sure how I forgot that part) I'd suggest a bend instead of a splice.

As for which kind of bend, I'd have to look for a bit. One suggestion would be to use a Double Coin knot (Josophine) as a bend. Make the double coin knot in the second rope, slip the first rope through the loops of the double coin knot and then tighten the double coin knot. A stopper knot at the end of the first rope should prevent slipping through the double coin knot on the second. Should use only slightly more rope than the lark's head, but would look nicer. And due to the nature of the loops in the double coin, you can use it to continue length in vitrually any direction compared to the first rope.
Title: Re: The best three-strand terminal knot for rope for japanese bondage (shibari)?
Post by: ibu on February 03, 2011, 03:32:50 PM
@Rrok007

Thanks for your idea with the double coin knot.

The result is a nicer look of the join of two ropes.

But of course binding that double coin knot needs a lot of time. I think that collides with the typicall character of shibari, that the process of binding is steady flow.

One could say "Binding the double coin knots a each rope is part of preparing the ropes and is done before a bondage starts".
But there are several Bondages which don't need a join of another rope.

Just some thoughts of a beginner.