International Guild of Knot Tyers Forum

General => Practical Knots => Topic started by: wackymorningdj on January 25, 2011, 07:18:56 PM

Title: Looking for a sheet bend alternative
Post by: wackymorningdj on January 25, 2011, 07:18:56 PM
I'm new to the forum, and an occasional knot nut.

I'm working on a knotless net bag as a demonstration project that I'm going to teach in a few weeks, and I need a good bend for tying two pieces of twine together.  In previous bags I've used sheet bends, but I've noticed that they tend to come untied after a lot of use.

Ideally the bend should be (in decreasing order of importance):

Also, the knot doesn't need to be untied, so it's OK if it jams.

I figure if there's anywhere to ask, this is the place.

Mike
Title: Re: Looking for a sheet bend alternative
Post by: roo on January 25, 2011, 07:23:57 PM
I'm working on a knotless net bag as a demonstration project that I'm going to teach in a few weeks, and I need a good bend for tying two pieces of twine together.  In previous bags I've used sheet bends, but I've noticed that they tend to come untied after a lot of use.

Ideally the bend should be (in decreasing order of importance):
  • Easy to tie for beginners.
  • Secure without loading.
  • Able to cut the free ends short.
  • Flat.

If it's just twine, I was going to suggest a European Death Knot (based on a simple overhand knot):

(http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQX3yeMAV3UrhD38zURdQBA2d7_hNKYTt1YpJy3ilRJl8TaYpTI)

...but I'm not sure what you mean by "flat".  What is the flatness supposed to accomplish?

Another option:  http://notableknotindex.webs.com/Zeppelin.html
Title: Re: Looking for a sheet bend alternative
Post by: wackymorningdj on January 25, 2011, 07:54:35 PM
By "flat", I mean something that isn't bulky, and that has the two lines coming out from the knot in opposite directions.  The netting mesh is fairly small, so the knot shouldn't stick out.  Basically I'm trying to hide the knots.
Title: Re: Looking for a sheet bend alternative
Post by: knot4u on January 25, 2011, 08:01:05 PM
I'm new to the forum, and an occasional knot nut.

I'm working on a knotless net bag as a demonstration project that I'm going to teach in a few weeks, and I need a good bend for tying two pieces of twine together.  In previous bags I've used sheet bends, but I've noticed that they tend to come untied after a lot of use.

Ideally the bend should be (in decreasing order of importance):
  • Easy to tie for beginners.
  • Secure without loading.
  • Able to cut the free ends short.
  • Flat.

I figure if there's anywhere to ask, this is the place.

Mike

Does the knot need to be untied, or is it OK if it jams?
Title: Re: Looking for a sheet bend alternative
Post by: wackymorningdj on January 25, 2011, 08:15:34 PM
Jamming is fine.  The knot shouldn't ever need to be untied.
(I'll add all this to the original post too)
Title: Re: Looking for a sheet bend alternative
Post by: roo on January 25, 2011, 08:22:16 PM
By "flat", I mean something that isn't bulky, and that has the two lines coming out from the knot in opposite directions.  The netting mesh is fairly small, so the knot shouldn't stick out.  Basically I'm trying to hide the knots.

In that case, the Zeppelin Bend listed above might be a better choice for your needs.  

A Water Knot might also be a option, though maybe a little bulkier:
(http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSayfX4Y1bBTv-KfR6_a6RcEhvrV-6WaflVOzssLE3zSc33P6T6Cw)

Its jamming probably won't be a problem for disposable twine, but sometimes it's nice to be able to adjust a knot if it isn't in the right spot on the first try.
Title: Re: Looking for a sheet bend alternative
Post by: knot4u on January 25, 2011, 08:40:11 PM
OK, jamming is not an issue.  Further, I would think you would actually want the knot to jam if you plan on cutting the ends.  I was initially going to say the Zeppelin Bend.  However, because jamming is OK, the door is open to a larger world of knots.  Let me think...

Ideally the bend should be (in decreasing order of importance):

...

  • Able to cut the free ends short.

...

Title: Re: Looking for a sheet bend alternative
Post by: SS369 on January 25, 2011, 08:42:31 PM
Hello wackymorningdj and welcome.

For a simple knot to use as the bend, what comes to mind given the particulars you've listed is a Waterman's knot. It has other names such as Fisherman's, True Lover's and Angler's knot. Probably more, but that is another topic.
I'll attach a picture from the Net.

Another that could be easy is the Flemish bend. Basically two figure 8's that are woven into each other.

Hopefully these will do. If not ask away.
Seems like a good opportunity to teach some knotting to the beginners. Welcome them to here if you would like to!

SS
Title: Re: Looking for a sheet bend alternative
Post by: knot4u on January 25, 2011, 08:50:34 PM
I recommend the Flemish Bend (Figure 8 Bend), the Fisherman Knot or the Water Knot (Overhand Bend).  All three are relatively easy to tie, and they all jam, which I think is preferable here.  If you're going to cut the ends, you want the knot to stay put.  With cut ends, if the knot became untied, you'd have to tie the knot at a different location...not good.

(http://i52.tinypic.com/ayvas5.jpg)
Flemish Bend (Figure 8 Bend)

(http://i51.tinypic.com/epoina.jpg)
Fisherman Knot

(http://i55.tinypic.com/2rx8g09.jpg)
Water Knot (Overhand Bend)
Title: Re: Looking for a sheet bend alternative
Post by: TMCD on January 25, 2011, 10:06:48 PM
You said you were using sheet bends for a while, but wanted an upgrade. I would suggest a Simple Simon Under, it's in Geoffrey Budworth's Encyclopedia of Knots & ROPEWORK...Budworth calls this bend a very useful and underrated bend, stating it deserves more recognition and should be used on a wider scale than it is at present. It's a step up from the Sheetbend. It's VERY easy to tie too.

Another bend I would strongly consider is the Racking Bend, it's based on figure 8 interweaving. But it works well with two ropes of different sizes...the smaller rope seizes the bight of a much thicker rope and allows the bight to remain seized. Budworth's book says it can be used to join massive cable laid cordage aboard ocean going ships or used in fine twines.
Title: Re: Looking for a sheet bend alternative
Post by: Dan_Lehman on January 26, 2011, 07:52:52 AM
Hello, Wacky!

The knot that you should use is the Surgeon's knot (so-called).
(I.e., the Square Knot cousin, not the angler's oddly named multiple overhand.)

This is very easily tied in your finicky small stuff, and by beginners,
and will jam secure upon setting, to be trimmed at each end.

QED.

 :)
Title: Re: Looking for a sheet bend alternative
Post by: SaltyCracker on January 28, 2011, 03:08:37 AM
This is ABoK 1031 tied as a bend. It is the lowest profile bend that I know... the crossings don't seem to double up anywhere in the structure of the knot. It's fairly easy to tie. (Anything is easy if you know how to do it.) It holds in about any type of line. Ends come out parallel to the standing part, etc.
Title: Re: Looking for a sheet bend alternative
Post by: SaltyCracker on January 28, 2011, 03:09:39 AM
Drawn-up, finished knot from previous post. Resembles a vice-versa (corrected spelling 2011-Jan-28) but more versatile. Can also be a loop knot.
Title: Re: Looking for a sheet bend alternative
Post by: SS369 on January 28, 2011, 03:40:32 AM
Yes that will work easily for the purpose. That is the same knot as in the picture I posted in reply #7 and the center picture that knot4u posted as well.

And I was incorrect as I mis-saw the knot you posted SaltyCracker, sorry. ;-)

Thanks you for adding it as well SaltyCracker.

Now if wackymorningdj is watching he can take this same knot and do the double version of it and it should assuage Roo's concerns.

SS
Title: Re: Looking for a sheet bend alternative
Post by: Dan_Lehman on January 28, 2011, 04:53:39 AM
Yes that will work easily for the purpose.

That is the same knot as in the picture I posted in reply #7
and the center picture that knot4u posted as well.

Wrong on all accounts.

I don't see how Salty can find this of such small profile, as the Reef
is of course smaller, and the Water Knot (Ring Bend) & Fisherman's
knot
as small and better shaped.  (It's interesting that Ashley didn't
see in #1031/1048 the interlocking-overhands bend Harry Asher
christened "Shakehands", which is loaded in reverse to what's
presented here, and thus easily untied --not wanted, though, for
the OP's application.)  Ashley's #1406 is quite small, trimmed,
but it's tricky to set and it's not reassuring about jamming secure.

I will revise my recommendation above (for the Surgeon's) to be
for the Double Harness Bend or ABOK #1421.  This not only
has a small profile but it presents the ends together (there is a
version that has them opposite) which in the OP's circumstance
is an ideal presentation for cutting off --both at once, and both
right at the nub (much easier to trim than were they exiting parallel
to the SParts)!

The Layhands site has a decent representation of it, but for easy
tying, you'll want to skip to step#3 and look at the geometry
there and work up your method to tie one end first, then the
other, then bring the halves together (to abut each other),
which can take some bit of dexterity or technique/practice.
Pull to set & jam, and then snip the tails close to the body
.:.  perfect!

Cf www.layhands.com/Knots/Knots_Bends.htm (http://www.layhands.com/Knots/Knots_Bends.htm)
where #8 is the Dbl.Harness Bend, and #18 Shakehands.
(Beware of the appalling bozos on-line pretending to show
a "double harness bend" in some videos --egadz. (eHow/Marinews))


 ;)

Title: Re: Looking for a sheet bend alternative
Post by: knot4u on January 28, 2011, 07:43:13 AM
Yes that will work easily for the purpose. That is the same knot as in the picture I posted in reply #7 and the center picture that knot4u posted as well.

Thanks you for adding it as well SaltyCracker.

Now if wackymorningdj is watching he can take this same knot and do the double version of it and it should assuage Roo's concerns.

SS

It's not quite a Fisherman Bend, but it's close.  That bend in Salty's pics has an overlap that the Fisherman doesn't have.  Zoom into the third pic.  It's an interesting bend.  I'll have to test it out.
Title: Re: Looking for a sheet bend alternative
Post by: wackymorningdj on January 28, 2011, 08:35:09 AM
Wow, lots of responses!

So far my pick of the bunch is the double harness bend.  I can get it to jam pretty well, I like that it isn't very bulky at all, and it seems relatively easy to tie.  I actually found that the  diagrams (http://www.layhands.com/Knots/Knots_Bends.htm#DoubleHarnessBend) I was pointed to are easy to follow (without skipping to step 3 as suggested).  All of these knots are much better than the sheet bends I've been using.  You can't beat a fisherman's bend or water knot in terms of simplicity, but both of those felt a little bulky.  I guess I'll see what the response is if I try to teach a knot that's a bit less common.  Fortunately there will be a variety of classes happening at the same time, so if all else fails, I can just send people to the knot class.   :)
Thanks to everyone.

Mike
Title: Re: Looking for a sheet bend alternative
Post by: SaltyCracker on January 28, 2011, 09:35:39 AM

It's not quite a Fisherman Bend, but it's close.  That bend in Salty's pics has an overlap that the Fisherman doesn't have.  Zoom into the third pic.  It's an interesting bend.  I'll have to test it out.
[/quote] Sorry knot4u... I don't have this quote thing down yet.

Thanks for your replies. If anything the knot in replies 11 & 12 is similar to, but not the same, as Harry Asher's Shake Hands, as shown in Budworth "Encyclopedia" book. It also resembles Vice Versa. It isn't a complicated knot to tie but certainly less straight-forward than some of the others in this topic. It is very obscure in that the only place I've ever seen it is as a loop knot in ABoK #1031 and, tied in the bight, #1048. And, I've never seen anyone else use it as a bend.

As stated in another topic, several years back I switched to using this on the Kevlar line on speargun line-shafts. It holds better in springy & slippery material than certainly the bowline but also many other knots as well. I prefer it over the Zeppelin, Hunters, and some of the other interlocking overhand knots since the ends do not come out of the knot at right angles. Also, by being a long knot, load is distributed through the knot improving its breaking strength. Only breaks that I've experienced have been at the attachment point (twice) of the line & never at the knot.

Give it a try in working conditions and then give some feed back. Let me know if it would be worthwhile & I'll start this in its own topic.

As always... be sure for yourself of a knot before you use it for real. Since this is obscure it hasn't had the testing of some of the more main-stream knots.

Title: Re: Looking for a sheet bend alternative
Post by: xarax on January 28, 2011, 02:20:08 PM
   Wackmorningdj, I think that if you have chosen the Double Harness bend, it would be better to make just an additional small step...Re-tuck this bend, and have a safer (1), really nice looking bend, with collars around two rope diameters and standing end/tails pair of the same rope adjacent and parallel to the bend axis. No comparison with the parent bend !  :)

1) "safer" theoretically, as the tails are secured once more - in relation to the parent bend- as they pass through the collar loops.
Title: Re: Looking for a sheet bend alternative
Post by: wackymorningdj on January 28, 2011, 04:00:10 PM
Is that "re-tucked" double harness bend the same as the Reever Knot (http://www.layhands.com/Knots/Knots_Bends.htm#ViceVersaBend) shown here? (second set of pictures)
Title: Re: Looking for a sheet bend alternative
Post by: xarax on January 28, 2011, 05:17:13 PM
  Since I had posted the relevant thread/quiz, this very good web site article (1) about bends has been modified (and improved, by the addition of (2)). One can read all the important things one would really need about this knot there. I can not say which of the two bends is stronger, but I think that they, both, are preferable from the Double Harness bend.
( To my view, this web site is, to this day, the best easily accessible knot reference we have)
( Unfortunately, I have deleted/lost, the original pictures of this thread/quiz)
 
  1. http://www.layhands.com/knots/Knots_Bends.htm
  2. http://www.layhands.com/Knots/Knots_Bends.htm#ViceVersaBend
Title: Re: Looking for a sheet bend alternative
Post by: roo on January 28, 2011, 05:47:53 PM
So far my pick of the bunch is the double harness bend.
If you find this hard to teach, you might introduce the Blood Knot, not necessarily as an alternative, but to show that the double harness bend is much like a watered-down version of the Blood Knot.

You have an interesting niche.  The Double Harness is usually avoided in rope for various reasons.  In fishing line, the Blood Knot is preferred for security.  Your application is somewhere in between.
Title: Re: Looking for a sheet bend alternative
Post by: Dan_Lehman on January 28, 2011, 07:37:13 PM
So far my pick of the bunch is the double harness bend.
I can get it to jam pretty well,
I like that it isn't very bulky at all,
and it seems relatively easy to tie.
AND it is the most easy knot to trim, however closely your
desire (as the ends -a- are parallel and -b- able to be cut at the body).

NB:  There are two ways to orient the tails as they exit : the way you
should use will keep the tail close to its wrapping; this will have the
tails abut but not CROSS each other --the crossing, though nice in rope,
and maybe adding both strength (slightly?) and ease of untying, make
the knot a little wider/bulkier, less trim & jamming.
(And it is this bulkier orientation that can lead to the Reever bend,
which goes beyond what you need, in providing if anything unneeded
strength, and bulk, and tedious tying to achieve.)

Quote
  I actually found that the [Layhand instructions] I was pointed to are easy to follow
 (without skipping to step 3 as suggested).

Fine, but the point of my urging you to skip to the structure
shown in #3 was that it should be simpler for tyers to go about
the tying by first forming one half, then the other, separately,
vs, the harmonious shaping & through-some-inchoate-gap tucking
esp. as you are working in (it seems) rather small, fiddly material.

Btw, can you provide any images of your material/net-bag?
(-- photo by yourself, or a link to such images at a site)

While the Fisherman's knot might seem bulky, it is one of the
most streamlined and evenly shaped knots, and does find regular
use in commerical-fishing knotting for things that might even run
through a pot-hauler V-grooved gripping wheel (where knots get
compressed).

Quote
so if all else fails, I can just send people to the knot class.   :)

Um, no, that's likely --alas-- NOT a good solution,
as some of the knot-instruction videos can attest,
i.p. about a so-called "double harness bend"!   >:(
(What the eHow/Marinews video eventually shows is
a SINGLE harness bend (and not two "harnesses").)

--dl*
====
Title: Re: Looking for a sheet bend alternative
Post by: roo on January 29, 2011, 07:18:31 AM
So far my pick of the bunch is the double harness bend.
If you find this hard to teach, you might introduce the Blood Knot, not necessarily as an alternative, but to show that the double harness bend is much like a watered-down version of the Blood Knot.
Wackymorningdj,

Along these lines, you want to be observant enough not to water down the knot too much, as you would arrive at the, um... interesting or disturbing Grief Knot or Whatnot:

http://notableknotindex.webs.com/reefknot.html
Title: Re: Looking for a sheet bend alternative
Post by: SaltyCracker on January 29, 2011, 05:35:27 PM

... If anything the knot in replies 11 & 12 is similar to, but not the same, as Harry Asher's Shake Hands, as shown in Budworth "Encyclopedia" book. It also resembles Vice Versa. It isn't a complicated knot to tie but certainly less straight-forward than some of the others in this topic. It is very obscure in that the only place I've ever seen it is as a loop knot in ABoK #1031 and, tied in the bight, #1048. And, I've never seen anyone else use it as a bend...


In regard to the #1031/#1048 based knot previously posted, I've been experimenting with Asher's shake hands and believe that it is the same knot... I'll start another topic on this knot rather than it being a distraction to this topic... so maybe I have seen it used... just didn't recognize it!
Title: Re: Looking for a sheet bend alternative
Post by: trade use only on January 30, 2011, 04:42:55 PM
I'll vote with Fisherman's Knot.  Simple to remember, pleasing to play with and style just right - and very very strong ("the fishermen knew what they were doing").  You can't get a Fisherman's Knot undone after it has been loaded.  Not a problem in this case.
So I'm with "SS369" who provides "fishknot.gif"
(BTW - got to laugh at naming mess-up - "Fisherman's Knot" is a bend, "Fisherman's Bend" is a hitch - you want "Fisherman's Knot")
Title: Re: Looking for a sheet bend alternative
Post by: dmacdd on January 31, 2011, 01:20:10 AM

So far my pick of the bunch is the double harness bend. 


The double harness bend seems like the best choice to me too, after the requirements creep that may have occurred in the course of the thread, and conceivably in the formulation of your original post.  It occurs to me that in the pedagogical environment in which you are working, the double sheet bend would have attributes that might make it more attractive than the double harness bend -- if it meets your minimal requirements for an improvement over the sheet bend, which I suspect it might. 

The sheet bend is also known as the weaver's knot, although "weaver's knot" is also used generically for knots made in thread and yarn by weavers with the ends of the fingers. There is a particularly easy way to make "the" weaver's knot in very small stuff with the ends of the fingers. It  may be seen at the Wikipedia entry for the sheet bend:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheet_bend (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheet_bend)   

The double sheet bend may be tied in a way that is an obvious extension of the weaver's way of making the sheet bend, which makes it another "weaver's knot".  It seems to me that the double sheet bend made this way would be considerably easier to teach and make than the double harness bend, and only a small modification of what you are already doing if you are currently making the sheet bend as a weaver's knot.  These attributes might outweigh the strengths of the double harness bend in your application. I cannot judge this, but I thought it was worth a mention.

Ashley describes a knot he calls the double weaver's knot (488) which, as he says, is topologically identical to the double sheet bend (1434).  "Topologically identical" may in this case mean "inferior".  If the morphological difference between 488 and 1434 bothers you, the usual double sheet bend can be made by a slight modification of the method given in 488 by making the second turn on the outside of the first turn rather than, as shown in 488, on the inside.

Title: Re: Looking for a sheet bend alternative
Post by: wackymorningdj on January 31, 2011, 03:16:13 AM
It occurs to me that in the pedagogical environment in which you are working, the double sheet bend would have attributes that might make it more attractive than the double harness bend -- if it meets your minimal requirements for an improvement over the sheet bend, which I suspect it might. 

[snip]

The double sheet bend may be tied in a way that is an obvious extension of the weaver's way of making the sheet bend, which makes it another "weaver's knot".  It seems to me that the double sheet bend made this way would be considerably easier to teach and make than the double harness bend, and only a small modification of what you are already doing if you are currently making the sheet bend as a weaver's knot.  These attributes might outweigh the strengths of the double harness bend in your application. I cannot judge this, but I thought it was worth a mention.

The "weaver's knot" is indeed how one usually ties lines together for the work I'm doing.  Generally I teach it using the "tricK" method (#2562), which couldn't be easier, and works great in the small netting material.  Overall, it seems like teaching a double sheet bend or a double harness bend would rank similarly in terms of complexity, though I could reasonably expect at least some of the students to know how to tie a sheet bend.

(BTW - got to laugh at naming mess-up - "Fisherman's Knot" is a bend, "Fisherman's Bend" is a hitch - you want "Fisherman's Knot")
Good catch.  I know my fisherman's knot plenty well, but I always forget about the "bend".

Oh, and here are photos of the bag I'm teaching (bottom and side).  I'm using jute for the bags.  This one is around, say, 8 inches across, and it's pretty stretchy because of all the loops.
Title: Re: Looking for a sheet bend alternative
Post by: Dan_Lehman on January 31, 2011, 08:53:29 PM
   Wackmorningdj, I think that if you have chosen the Double Harness bend,
it would be better to make just an additional small step...Re-tuck this bend, ...

1) "safer" theoretically, as the tails are secured once more - in relation to the parent bend- as they pass through the collar loops.

I disagree and stated why, for this application.

But I will further revise my recommendation based on seeing what
material --natural fiber (jute)-- he is working with.  And in this, I
can see a Xarax "additional ... re-tucking" working well for some
alternative but like knot to the Dbl.Harness --viz., the S88 bend.

I think that the basis of the S88 --viz. Ashley's #1406 "Whatnot-1"--
is perhaps best, given the jute; Xarax's S88 extends this base with a tuck
of the tails.  The S88 seems to be easier to set tight with pull on both
SParts & tails (iteratively) than the Dbl.Harness, and might be surer
to jam!?  The latter perhaps requires more *flow* of tension in the
knot and with a frictive and not-so-strong natural-fiber material it's
better to go with an even simpler structure (which in turn would work
less well/surely in slipperier material).  The S88's tails are perpendicular
to the axis of tension, so are pretty easily cut off at the not body; and
they leave behind a workable structure of the Whatnot/Grass Bend
even should the final tuck be lost.
But this is an awkward knot to tie, and is not done so all that
material-efficiently.  Go with the Whatnot-1 (#1406)!

Cf.
   Rusty, have you tried the "S88 bend" in comparison to yours ?
(In the attached pictures, I post pictures of both. The S88 bend pictures were posted, for the first time, at (1). S88 bend (Simple 88) is the un-tucked version of the F88 bend (Full 88), presented at (2) The pictures of your version, were taken after your post, are based on your pictures, and are posted here for the first time.)
 
1. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1935.0
2. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1919.0


Hmmmm, further fiddling with these options in some sort of small,
natural-fiber cord (about 3mm diameter, 6-strand laid), points strongly
to the Whatknot-1.  It's quickly tied and can be set manually to a nice
snug, jammed state in this frictive stuff; I should think that it will do
the job well in that jute.  Take care in setting the knot to balance each
side's pull & nip on the other.  This knot has a very small profile, with
the tails trimmed off!

Cheers,
--dl*
====