International Guild of Knot Tyers Forum

General => Practical Knots => Topic started by: don knots on January 11, 2011, 10:03:42 PM

Title: quick question from a newbie making a special dog leash
Post by: don knots on January 11, 2011, 10:03:42 PM
Hello all,

I am seeking some advice as to which knots to use to make a two-dog leash with latex surgical tubing shock absorber betwixt the dogs such that if one dog goes one way and one goes the other, they don't dislocate each other's neck.  I would like to create a standard loop for the wrist/thumbcli followed by about six feet of leash (so far so good) connected to a ring.  Here it comes.  The ring then, is connected to two additional lengths ....(or one anchored mid way) which are then attached to the dogs via your standard  dog leash clip dealy bobs.  Between the ring and the clip is my problem.  I want surgical tubing for shock absorption, but i need a longer length of rope for security.  So the surgical tubing is shorter to absorb the shock but when the dog goes so far, the rope kicks in for a definitive stop.  Yes, of course I could just drape the rope down, but I was hoping for some type of braided sheathing that would surround the latex tubing and stretch with it a number of inches before the final rigid tug on the neck. 

I don't know if that makes any sense at all.  Mostly I am looking for some kind of braid or knot that will stretch when pulled for a few inches or so.

Any ideas?

Title: Re: quick question from a newbie making a special dog leash
Post by: roo on January 11, 2011, 10:31:49 PM
Hello all,

I am seeking some advice as to which knots to use to make a two-dog leash with latex surgical tubing shock absorber betwixt the dogs such that if one dog goes one way and one goes the other, they don't dislocate each other's neck.  I would like to create a standard loop for the wrist/thumbcli followed by about six feet of leash (so far so good) connected to a ring.  Here it comes.  The ring then, is connected to two additional lengths ....(or one anchored mid way) which are then attached to the dogs via your standard  dog leash clip dealy bobs.  Between the ring and the clip is my problem.  I want surgical tubing for shock absorption, but i need a longer length of rope for security.  So the surgical tubing is shorter to absorb the shock but when the dog goes so far, the rope kicks in for a definitive stop.  Yes, of course I could just drape the rope down, but I was hoping for some type of braided sheathing that would surround the latex tubing and stretch with it a number of inches before the final rigid tug on the neck.  

I don't know if that makes any sense at all.  Mostly I am looking for some kind of braid or knot that will stretch when pulled for a few inches or so.

I must admit that I cannot understand all that you are describing.  I've attached an image of two leashes with an elastic band (in red) between the two.  

To make the connection, you could put a Zeppelin Loop at each end of the elastic material:
http://notableknotindex.webs.com/zeppelinloop.html

And you could run each Zeppelin Loop through pre-formed midline loops made in the leash line.  For example:
http://notableknotindex.webs.com/butterflyloop.html

I have not tried this myself with surgical tubing, so perhaps you could experiment.  Maybe you can get away with a less rigorous approach.
Title: Re: quick question from a newbie making a special dog leash
Post by: don knots on January 11, 2011, 10:59:12 PM
my posts dont' want to post!!!!

I meant more like this
Title: Re: quick question from a newbie making a special dog leash
Post by: roo on January 11, 2011, 11:03:51 PM
my posts dont' want to post!!!!

I meant more like this
I see.  I don't want to be too presumptuous, but it seems like the sketch I posted will work in the same manner with a slightly lower degree of complexity.  Both systems have elasticity between the two dogs until a certain point when the hard stop kicks in.
Title: Re: quick question from a newbie making a special dog leash
Post by: SS369 on January 11, 2011, 11:09:05 PM
Hello Don Knots and welcome.

Quote: "Yes, of course I could just drape the rope down, but I was hoping for some type of braided sheathing that would surround the latex tubing and stretch with it a number of inches before the final rigid tug on the neck."

Seems to me you are really looking for shock cord that already has a woven braided cover. That is available from a slew of suppliers.

The means to attach the shock cord is the question? What knot(s) to use there.
The answers will vary from the utilitarian to the decorative.

Ask away.

SS

Title: Re: quick question from a newbie making a special dog leash
Post by: don knots on January 12, 2011, 12:11:48 AM
yes....your system is much less complicated.  I consider myself fairly intelligent, having aced a year of organic chemistry and so forth, but when it comes to knots (or computers) it all goes down the tubes.  I DO have a bunny leash and harness that has shock cord encased in a fabric sleeve and I supposed that got me thinking more linearly.  Also, thought I might try some simple yet decorative knots to make the leash....or braids or something so it just doesn't look like a rope leash.  Could just go buy one.  just thought i might try to make my own more decorative one of a kind project. 

Anyway, the only thing keeping me thinking on a linear bent is that I may, on occasion, only have one dog on, and during that time, I may be on a bike as well.  So I originally described the shock cord as insulation between the dogs, but I was also thinking to myself that if I only had one dog on and I was on my bike that I would want the shock absorber to keep the dog from jerking me off my bike in that instance.   Pity you couldn't read my mind. 

I made a leash for the bike before....just a length of rope with a bit of surgical tubing....similar to my diagram.

Thinking of a series of metal rings surrounding the tubing every so often with several slack bits of rope holding them but the braid that stretches sounded better. 

Anyhow........

Thanks for the reply.  Who knows what I'll end up with.
Title: Re: quick question from a newbie making a special dog leash
Post by: roo on January 12, 2011, 12:21:38 AM
Anyway, the only thing keeping me thinking on a linear bent is that I may, on occasion, only have one dog on, and during that time, I may be on a bike as well.
I hope your dog is very well trained, with or without the elastic material.   ;D
Title: Re: quick question from a newbie making a special dog leash
Post by: knot4u on January 12, 2011, 01:38:36 AM
my posts dont' want to post!!!!

I meant more like this

Your diagram looks like a disaster waiting to happen.  If you wanted individual control over one dog only, you could not have it.  I'd prefer a device that's closer to Roo's diagram.
Title: Re: quick question from a newbie making a special dog leash
Post by: SS369 on January 12, 2011, 02:32:54 AM
Don,

Just an concerned member's opinion here.
If I were going to do anything remotely like this and the challenge truly is that the dogs do not choke out or get unduly jerked, then I would manufacture or purchase body harnesses. Those are so much kinder and gentler.
Google the possibilities.

Then you can twist and fiddle any kind of leash contraption you'd care to do. (Decorative knot work)

SS
Title: Re: quick question from a newbie making a special dog leash
Post by: don knots on January 12, 2011, 03:15:07 AM
hello again,

getting back to dogs and bikes and choking.......

I at one time tried harnesses with the elastic and without.  the dogs will not pull me along on a bike but prefer to trot along the side of it.  on occasion they will run ahead or off to the side enough that the elasticity alerts them that they are coming to the end of the leash.  Since I know they will not pull me along on the bike, I just need enough "give" in that situation to avoid a sudden jerk for their sake and mine.....there is also a quick release if needed.   Again, a harness was and would be used if I knew they were pulling.  Pulling from the neck is not good.  That is what I am trying to avoid.  When tethered together using an over the counter coupler, there is NO elasticity whatsoever. I am trying to improve that by providing some warning and gradual pull.  Sorry everyonel, I didn't mean to get into a big argument with the ASPCA.  The dogs are fine.  I feed them Wellness and Innova.  Everyone is happy.  Please do not call the Gestapo. 

I'm just a guy looking for a braided or other sleeve-like series of knots that can stretch along with some surgical tubing.   Sorry for the controversy.
Title: Re: quick question from a newbie making a special dog leash
Post by: don knots on January 12, 2011, 03:50:27 AM
What about a dragons tongue, the "straight" piece being tubing and the twisty bits being rope?
Title: Re: quick question from a newbie making a special dog leash
Post by: [Inkanyezi] gone on January 12, 2011, 03:29:33 PM
It seems to me that what's asked is some kind of shock absorber. The boating industry has long had a solution for this that is better than the split lines in the first suggestion from OP.

To make this, a braided line without a core is used. The line is compressed longitudinally, so the centre opens up, and a soft rubber core is inserted; the core can be made of foam material, that will be compressed when the rope elongates, thus providing resiliency.

Having been a dog trainer for some years, the whole idea to me does not seem very good. I would prefer two separate leashes, to give me control over each dog without interfering with the other. After some training, jerks will not be any problem, and no trained dog should pull or jerk on the leash. When using dogs for pulling loads, a harness should always be used, not the collar.

But the simplest way to add resilience is to use a tube braid with foam rubber in the centre. Another option is to have a zigzag portion of the rope through a rubber contraption with several holes, which is another solution used in boating.
Title: Re: quick question from a newbie making a special dog leash
Post by: Dan_Lehman on January 12, 2011, 05:54:24 PM
I have a couple of concerns:

1) that slack non-elastic line (as shown in some proposed solutions)
becomes a snag-magnet, catching and tangling on all sorts of things;

2) that in the situation with a fork there should be all so much need,
as there is a 3-way tension which should itself be somewhat shock
absorbing (i.e., the dogs will not typically be pulling directly against
each other)

As for biking, I'll only comment that dogs on leashes along "bike trails"
are known hazards to cyclists, not all of whom ride w/needed caution
to beware the wayward leanings of a dog & presence of leash.


--dl*
====
Title: Re: quick question from a newbie making a special dog leash
Post by: DerekSmith on January 12, 2011, 08:32:52 PM
Hello Don,

Well, at last I meet one.  An idle person on a bike , but this time, not with one dog on a lead but two dogs on a bungee cord -- you sir, take the biscuit...

Don, I have six greyhounds and I walk them each on a separate leash - why? because if one goes one way and one another, then it is me that takes the grief and not my dogs necks for my lack of attention.  If you have two dogs leashed together and they jump in opposite directions, you have no way of diverting the inevitable neck snapping jar when they eventually hit the hard cord - elastic tube or no elastic tube.  To walk dogs safely you have to be in control and be alert to approaching issues.

And as for biking with your dogs (let alone having your dogs pull you) - I will not cause blushes for the other readers of this forum by giving here my opinion of the idle people I see doing this, other than to say - please find a good home for your dogs, they certainly don't deserve having a companion like you.  Are you really so lazy and so uncaring that you cannot get off your bike and run with your dogs, or find a safe place for them to run off leash?

I genuinely don't care one jit  about your safety should you get knocked off you bike by a spooked dog - you probably deserve it, but jees, can't you give a moments thought and CARE about what would happen to your dogs if they got legs caught in the wheels or pedals - or is it just that you like being seen out as Mr Macho on his bike with his dogs and to hell with giving their welfare any consideration.

Come on Don - brain in gear man - please...  before you injure or kill them...

Derek

Edited to remove 'name calling'.
Title: Re: quick question from a newbie making a special dog leash
Post by: [Inkanyezi] gone on January 12, 2011, 08:43:16 PM
This reminds me of what once happened to me, when I was on the bike with a dog on leash. This was a very nice bitch, she usually obeyed my least wink, but she had one weakness for water. She absolutely loved water.

So I glide idly along this path along the lakeshore, and she suddenly gets the idea to take a bath. I try to stop her, but to no avail. So there we go, first the dog, then the guy on the bicycle. Neck-deep in the water, still on the bicycle, I feel a bit foolish, and my dog is one of the happiest creatures on Earth.
Title: Re: quick question from a newbie making a special dog leash
Post by: DerekSmith on January 12, 2011, 09:44:04 PM
Lucky I guess that the water was on the dogs side.

My greys similarly are usually very good and placid, but they all have one absolute weakness - squirrels.

Mostly, I spot trouble well in advance of the hounds (I have a substantial height advantage) but sometimes I don't and that is when I need to be sure it is me that pays for lack of attention, not my dogs.

Inkanyezi - I really really would have liked to have seen and video'd that little episode - thank you for sharing it with us.  I think the mental image and the imagined embarrassment will live with me for quite some time.

Derek
Title: Re: quick question from a newbie making a special dog leash
Post by: squarerigger on January 12, 2011, 11:33:18 PM
Let's keep the language more moderate on this issue posters please!

SR
Title: Re: quick question from a newbie making a special dog leash
Post by: knot4u on January 12, 2011, 11:40:56 PM
possibly my most favorite thread ever  :D
Title: Re: quick question from a newbie making a special dog leash
Post by: [Inkanyezi] gone on January 13, 2011, 06:18:58 AM
Lucky I guess that the water was on the dogs side.
Indeed it was.  
Quote
I think the mental image and the imagined embarrassment will live with me for quite some time.
It also lives with me still after about thirty years.

But it is not really the whole story, because at the time, I was training guide dogs for the blind, "seeing eye dogs", and this one had been considered a suitable candidate - now imagine THAT!
Title: Re: quick question from a newbie making a special dog leash
Post by: DerekSmith on January 13, 2011, 10:44:00 AM

But it is not really the whole story, because at the time, I was training guide dogs for the blind, "seeing eye dogs", and this one had been considered a suitable candidate - now imagine THAT!

Perhaps it also had a sense of humour...  You can almost hear Mutley's wheezing chuckle in the background.

Derek
Title: Re: quick question from a newbie making a special dog leash
Post by: don knots on January 17, 2011, 05:42:05 PM
Ok, I get it.

I mistakenly thought I would ask a KNOT question on the KNOT TYERS guild forum and included the application such that the respondents could understand what type of KNOTS they might advise using.  My bad (as the kids say these days).

I thank you for your advice, even Derek the delusional.

Seriously Derek, do you honestly think the amount of walking you (a human, I presume),  gives a greyhound (a natural athlete) can provide a dog is adequate??  Sorry my friend, you couldn't be more wrong.  If you are taking your dogs to the park for four or five hours  a day and letting,no MAKING, them run you MIGHT be getting close to what my dogs need.   Unfortunately where I live the dog parks are small, urine and feces infested postage stamp sized health hazards.  I am not superman.  Come to think of it, I have yet to find a person, superhero or not, who can RUN long enough and fast enough to provide a dog (my type of dogs) with the kind of exercise that would provide for their needs.  Shame on you.

I have working dogs.  I took them on an eight mile walk yesterday (actually two four mile walks....one morning, one evening). This took about three hours.  Then en route was an uncharacteristic stop through the dog park where they demonstrated to me that the three hours of exercise was child's play for them as they romped and frolicked like puppies with the other dogs. 

That was, I regret to inform you, what these dogs should have done before breakfast followed by an eight or ten hour day of running after cattle or sheep. 

Greyhounds are a bit different, I know.  Sprint a bit and lounge the rest of they day stinking up the furniture. 

I used to live in the sled dog capital of the United States.  I'd run them in a harness pulling a load if I could, but I haven't had much success with that.  What I HAVE had success with is them running beside me on my bike.  Never had a problem with tangles, never had a problem with them running after a squirrel, always riding in safe and controlled areas with quick release and extension bars so they could not get caught up in the bike if they tried.  By the time I'd tired of riding, they are tired of running.  The SYSTEM has been considered, reconsidered, analyzed, tweaked, adjusted, and otherwise engineered to near perfection. I just needed a little advice on KNOTS.

Not everyone thinks of all the potential hazards in their projects and I DO thank you all for bringing your concerns to light.  I had, however, thought of them all and had done hours of research and consultation by others using such systems.  I just needed some KNOT ADVICE.   

What I really DIDN'T need was condescending attitude from some animal hoarding misfit who doesn't have an inkling of who I am or how I care for my animals.

Yeah, I wanna be seen as Mr. Macho.
Title: Re: quick question from a newbie making a special dog leash
Post by: admin on January 18, 2011, 12:00:54 PM
I mistakenly thought I would ask a KNOT question on the KNOT TYERS guild forum and included the application such that the respondents could understand what type of KNOTS they might advise using.  My bad (as the kids say these days).

I appreciate that your original question has raised a few unexpected responses. Animal care is a subject that often gives rise to strong opinions and emotions. That said, this forum expects that all members conduct themselves in a reasonable manner and try to discuss all topics in a mature and civilised fashion.

I would therefore like to ask all concerned to consider their answers carefully before posting them. Please avoid posting whilst angry  - otherwise you may simply be fuelling the forum equivalent of an arms war. Go and do something more enjoyable instead. If, on your return, you still cannot respond in an equitable manner, consider avoiding the topic altogether. There are plenty of other, perhaps pleasanter, discussions ongoing at any time.

All forum moderators have the ability to close topics. This is not an ability that we wish to exercise but, if a discussion begins to descend into mud-slinging, I, for one, will not hesitate to use it.