International Guild of Knot Tyers Forum

General => Chit Chat => Topic started by: seabasedm on January 15, 2006, 04:35:13 PM

Title: knot books
Post by: seabasedm on January 15, 2006, 04:35:13 PM
   I'm looking into buying a knot book.I know the Ashley
is the king,but what are some others that would cover at least a good number bends,hiches,loops boating and climbing,rescue,and fancy mats,braids ,senets.........
would  the encyclopedia of knots and fancy rope work be a good one?  thankyou                Knothead
 
      P.S.  I'm also looking for a rigging knife.I hear the myerchin line is good but they look like 440 stainless dosnt sharpen well.should I look at the ka-bar's or case insted?
Title: Re: knot books
Post by: Dan_Lehman on January 16, 2006, 06:41:58 AM
There are many knots books published recently that present about 100 different
knots with cursory information and glossy color pictures (often of absurd apparent
applications of the knots!).  In contrast, Ashley's book is in black'n'white, but his
images are usually as good or better, and his associated text generally has more
to say.  Although he has some couple hundred practical knots, don't believe ABOK
is in any way "complete"--nor are others, which proclaim that in their title, as per
the shameless desires of book marketers.  Of course, with Ashley, one also gets
a whole bunch of decorative stuff, too.

To learn better about some particular application, get a book in that field--such
as rockclimbing or caving or fishing (Ashley worked in the age before synthetics,
so there is much missing for that).  With knotters, though, Ashley is a standard
of reference.

As for The Ency.of Knots & Fancy Rope Work, there are probably many in this
knotty community who find its treatment of decorative work passable or better;
but for practical knotting, aside from it being a collection of MANY images, it is
laughable (more funny if you didn't pay much for it), with an incredible load of
nonsense in gems such as "The Half Hitch Lineman's Loop has no practical value",
"The Cross Turn Bend is an unusual [I'll say!] way to make a bend with a cross
turn in the middle." and "The Crossed Hitch Weave has crossed hitches placed in the
ends as shown."  --whatever THAT matters!?  For a great bulk of the knots presented
here, the thought will be "huh?  WHY is this here??".  I can only imagine that
Hansel and Gretel had a jolly time sitting around and making things up!!
(It is plain hard to find another explanation, really!?)  It amazes me that this mass of stuff
got published ever.  It must succeed just by pure volume (at which few bother to look).

--dl*
====
Title: Re: knot books
Post by: KnotNow! on January 16, 2006, 11:32:03 PM
Hi,
 You didn't say if you wanted a folding "riggers knife" or a stick knife.  I carry a Case folding "riggers" knife with a folding spike.  I'd not want to be without it.  It goes on with my clothing.  I also have the same pattern from Buck and Camillus.  All three are about equal.  A.G. Russel also offers two versions of the same idea.  Much more expensive (which is why I don't own one from them).  I also have a variety of sheath knives in a riggers pattern.  Steel is a compromise, as you may well know.  If it is hard enough to take an edge it may be too hard to sharpen easily.  If it has enough addititives to be "stainless" it may be less than perfect as to ease of sharpening or edge holding.  I don't own a myerchin but played with one that would not hold an edge and was not very stainresistant... but that was a long time ago.  It had a noggy little spike in the same sheath that was about worthless.  It all depends on what you are going to do.  My favorite marlingspike and favorite sheath knife look silly at the bank... but my little folding Case (which is acceptable for daily wear where I live) is overmatched for some tasks (but pretty good for many, or even most).
 As to books... I'd not want to be without ABOK.  After 45 years I still keep it at hand, still make discoveries.. I can't think you would ever regret getting one.  They go fairly reasonably on Ebay if you are persistant.  I too would skip H & G until you need to be frustrated.  The color photo books, particuarlly the ones by Mr. Budworth and Mr Philpott, are wonderful tools to inspire and teach.  That said, due to the rich format they of necessity cover fewer knots.  Brion Toss's books, quite natrually, are sailing/rigging centered.  You may find that the more you learn the less you need fully detailed step by step with 7 views.  You will find some great tutorial sites on line.  Alan Grogono's animated knots is excellent and the tutorials offered at <www.khww.net> can help with some nice work too.  Weleke's site is wonderful too.  Hope this helps.  Let us know where you settle on both the books and the knife.
Title: Re: knot books
Post by: roo on January 16, 2006, 11:40:08 PM
Quote
and the tutorials offered at <www.khww.net> can help with some nice work too.  .


I just tried that, and it won't let you access the tutorials unless you register with an e-mail address, etc.  How bizarre and annoying.  >:(
Title: Re: knot books
Post by: Willeke on January 17, 2006, 07:03:56 PM
About books,
I like the books by Geoffrey Budworth, just look for one of his general or practical knots books, I get very good reports on the Hamlyn book of practical knots.

Also the books by Des Pawson, Floris Hin, Richard Hopkins and Gordon Perry are a good bet.
If you have a good bookshop near, or a library with a good collection, go in and have a look in all available.
If you can read the instructions and like the style it is a good book for you.
There is one book in the market at this time I would advice against, the knot handbook by Maria Costantino looks good but has some serious disadvantages,  in many photos it is hard to see where the lines go and in some cases the knots are plain wrong.

Willeke
Title: Re: knot books
Post by: PatDucey on January 17, 2006, 10:35:03 PM
Roo,

I would like to defend the KHWW website.  I have never been spamed from the site, and there is some good knot information there.  I also enjoy the galleries.  If I were to compare KHWW to this site, in many respects it is equal or better.  The forum is not as active as here, but I can post photos, tutorials, and templates.  Registering is painless, the information is priceless.

Pat
Title: Re: knot books
Post by: roo on January 17, 2006, 10:44:16 PM
Quote
Roo,

I would like to defend the KHWW website.  I have never been spamed from the site, and there is some good knot information there.  I also enjoy the galleries.  If I were to compare KHWW to this site, in many respects it is equal or better.  The forum is not as active as here, but I can post photos, tutorials, and templates.  Registering is painless, the information is priceless.

Pat


If they never plan on using e-mail addresses for nefarious purposes, why require them for even viewing tutorials?  It's inexcusable and is likely the reason they don't get much participation.

It reminds me of certain clueless news sites that ask for registration before you can view articles.  They must think they're the only show in town.
Title: Re: knot books
Post by: André van der Salm on January 18, 2006, 02:44:06 AM
The only reason that you have to register is to only have serious knot tyers on the site. I have to agree with Pat, registering isn't much fuss and you get a whole lot of info in return. One thing is for sure (in my opinion) they certainly don't think they are the only show in town.

of course it's your own decision to sign up or not.

regards
André
Title: Re: knot books
Post by: roo on January 18, 2006, 03:07:38 AM
Quote
The only reason that you have to register is to only have serious knot tyers on the site. I have to agree with Pat, registering isn't much fuss and you get a whole lot of info in return. One thing is for sure (in my opinion) they certainly don't think they are the only show in town.

of course it's your own decision to sign up or not.

regards
André


Oh yes, we wouldn't want non-serious types looking at tutorials!  You know all the problems that would cause.   ::)
Title: Re: knot books
Post by: seabasedm on January 18, 2006, 05:57:16 AM
    great ,thanks for all the info guyes.
Title: Re: knot books
Post by: Lasse_C on January 18, 2006, 11:34:30 AM
Quote
Oh yes, we wouldn't want non-serious types looking at tutorials!  You know all the problems that would cause.   ::)


Come on, roo, calm down!
The KHWW wants people to register in order to access the material, including the tutorials. Yes... and? KHWW makes this material and lay it out on the website for FREE. All KHWW wants from the interested individual is a registration. The registration is simple, takes very little time, and is also FREE. I am registered, and have never experienced any problems from that! On the other hand the tutorials and other material have been quite useful.

Frankly, I am unable to see the problem. This guy offers good material, asking nothing in return except that visitors are polite enough to register and tell who they are. Is that really so terrible?

Lasse C
Title: Re: knot books
Post by: KnotMe on January 18, 2006, 12:24:22 PM
It's not except it is.  For the casual browser, not being able to see the content before giving out precious personal information is likely to make them run.  Just the fuss of it all turned me off for quite a while, and that's even with half of PAB telling me I must be on KHWW...

If it's free, then let it be free... if you really want everyone to be looking.

On the topic of books, it should be realized that different people learn differently.  I have occasionally found a knot that made no sense in this book finally made sense in that one.  So, go to the library, see what books they have and try out the books and knots that interest you.  Odds are that one book will make more sense than the others.  Buy that one.  8-)
Title: Re: knot books
Post by: roo on January 18, 2006, 07:19:33 PM
Quote


Come on, roo, calm down!
The KHWW wants people to register in order to access the material, including the tutorials. Yes... and? KHWW makes this material and lay it out on the website for FREE. All KHWW wants from the interested individual is a registration. The registration is simple, takes very little time, and is also FREE. I am registered, and have never experienced any problems from that! On the other hand the tutorials and other material have been quite useful.

Frankly, I am unable to see the problem. This guy offers good material, asking nothing in return except that visitors are polite enough to register and tell who they are. Is that really so terrible?

Lasse C


Once again, there's no explanation as to why e-mail registration is needed to view tutorials.  WHY do they need to know who tutorial viewers are?  What do they do with that info, and why is it so important that they are willing to drive people away to the other dozens of sites that allow free and instant access to info?  

There are only two conclusions I can come up with:

1.) It's an accident and therefore a needless hassle and delay that is keeping their tutorials covered with dust and irritating folks.

2.) They're trying to get something out of your e-mail address in the way of sending spam, or making money selling e-mail addresses to spammers.
Title: Re: knot books
Post by: Willeke on January 18, 2006, 07:39:29 PM
I have been a member of KHWW for months now, and my e-mail address is not been used by anybody. (I have a different e-mail address for every board so I can if which one, if any, gets used.)
It gives the owner of the site some control over people posting spam if they have an e-mail address.

But I do agree that for the tutorials registring should not be necesary. But if the people doing the work on the site like it that way, let them. You are welcome to join but if you do not want to, so it is.

Willeke
Title: Re: knot books
Post by: KnotNow! on January 18, 2006, 09:17:18 PM
Here is a little more on books.  IGKT-PAB has an extensive knot library.  Dues paying members in good standing may borrow from the library.  So far we have only had one book "misplaced" since it seems that anyone bothering to join and pony up the dues isn't doing so just to steal a book.  Although my personal library is slim I've been able to read many of the most recognized and widely quoted knot books.  I am sorry that viewing KHWW is so frustrating for you Roo.  Perhaps it is something we can fix (what I don't know about websites would fill more books than we have on knots :-[)  I just contribute to the tutorials, participate in the forums and now and then throw in a few dollars to keep the site flowing.  There are plenty of guest only sites, our own IGKT-PAB site being one <www.igktpab.org> so happy surfing. :D
Title: Re: knot books
Post by: Knot Head on January 19, 2006, 10:39:42 AM
Hello Knot Heads...

All right to cut to the matter at hand.

1. I do not use anyones email for spamming purposes or otherwise. The reason for email registration is for one simple purpose. So others whom are members can communicate with one another. The email registration has a 2 fold purpose.

2. I do not sell khww members emails. I work too hard to secure the site from spam rippers to let that happen as is. The last time I checked you had to register here on IGKT Forum with an email address.

3. I want nothing to do with anyones email address on the personal side anyway. I have too much now to keep up with.

4. KHWW members who like to read would like also to have a monthly news letter from KHWW. The last time I checked, you have to have an email for that. I would like to continue with the Monthly News Letter from KHWW to all the members. This is a free news letter also.

I hope that cleared that up about registration on KHWW. Now on to the next topic.

The tutorials are now open to the public. After having it the way I had it for a year or better. Well now you do not have to be registered at all.

Roo you more than welcome to stop in and take a look around at the tutorials.

Regards,
Brian Kidd - Owner Webmaster www.khww.net
Title: Re: knot books
Post by: unregistered on January 19, 2006, 07:18:14 PM
Quote


... The last time I checked you had to register here on IGKT Forum with an email address.



Nope, not yet.  Technically, you can just put a placeholder in the email space.
Title: Re: knot books
Post by: bazz on January 19, 2006, 09:52:50 PM
How do Seabasedm, and All,

Two nice little books that have a varied selection of knots and fancy work that any knotter should give shelf space to are" The Harrison Book of Knots" by P.P.O. Harrison, and " Knots Splices andFancy Work" by Chas. L. Spencer.

As for knives, Stainless may not hold an edge quite as well as carbon steel but it does have the bonus of rust resistance, ideal around a salty environment.
If you want some good advice on rigging knives you could try contacting Brion Toss, you should be able to contact him through his site  
http://www.briontoss.com
He is the author of the "Handbook of Rigging" this book also contains info on choosing a good rigging knife.

I hope this is of help to you,

Take Care,
Barry ;)
Title: Re: knot books
Post by: Jimbo on January 22, 2006, 10:08:08 PM
Quote
440 stainless dosnt sharpen well

Yes and no.

"440 Stainless" isn't enough to decide (http://www.materialsengineer.com/E-Stainless-Steel.htm).

Is it "440A ("Low Carbon") (http://www.suppliersonline.com/propertypages/440A.asp)"?
"440B (http://www.suppliersonline.com/propertypages/440B.asp)"?
"440C ("High Carbon") (http://www.suppliersonline.com/propertypages/440C.asp)"?

Opinions abound (http://www.knifeart.com/steelfaqbyjo.html) on the relative merits therein contained, so that's why I put technical (http://www.weldingengineer.com/Stainless%20Steel.htm) references under the URLs above.

Basically, "Low Carbon" Stainless Steel will resist rust better, but will not hold an edge as well as "High Carbon" SS, which rusts more...  Finding the balance is where the fun is.  Even 440C, if not hardened properly, won't "sharpen well"...

The basic criteria of "sharpen well" is even too vague to address adequately, to wit:  IMO, "sharpen well" means a knife I can laboriously scrape to a perfect edge that will never, ever dull.  Yeah, right.  Well, I compromise by using steel & methods which extend the life of the edge as much as possible.  

OTOH, a friend for whom I stopped sharpening stuff (he kept bleeding all over my house -- do NOT play with my cutlery!! >:() prefers softer steel which is easy for him to "play with" (my term), as he continuously grinds away at his knives with all his newly-bought sharpening gizmos.

Knowing how your steel behaves (the "Urge of Metals (http://www.answers.com/metallurgy&r=67)") will free you from the FUD that knife makers throw up as a screen.  

To give a personal example:
I make (hideously crude) knives for "fun".  I've been working on my latest monster, a stainless utility "Dragon's Tooth" made from austenitic (http://www.ndx.com/fmmag/printpage.asp?article_id=728) SS that does not take heat tempering (http://www.assda.asn.au/asp/index.asp?pgid=26141) (nor hardening) at all.  It must be "work hardened", meaning as I cut it with a saw, the pounding of the cutting teeth actually hardens the material, making it harder & harder to cut!!  The "plan" (yeah, right) currently is to cut it out somehow then beat the edge down (it's called "drawing (http://www.scythesupply.com/workshop.htm)") to a semblance of sharpness.

There's a boatload of information on the WWWeb about cutlery, so here are a few links to suppliment the facts given above:
Key to Steel (http://www.key-to-steel.com/)
http://www.cutlerscove.com/kwg/knife-steel.htm
http://www.warehamforge.ca/knife.html
http://www.internetarmory.com/knife_info.htm
http://www.fholder.com/Blacksmithing/article5.htm
http://bronksknifeworks.com/sharpening.htm (even places that sell stuff have useful information)
Why is Stainless Steel Stainless? (http://chemistry.about.com/cs/metalsandalloys/a/aa071201a.htm)

I hope this helps some.  And be sure to click the colored links imbedded in the text above (Disclaimer: That last was so PABPRES won't have to say it!  ;) )

Bottom line:  What's the best knife?  The one you have in your hand!
Title: Re: knot books
Post by: KnotNow! on January 23, 2006, 10:43:03 AM
Links?  What links?  Thanks, Jimbo.  So you and I will go on making our own blades............ but what is your shot at a good one for someone who needs one off the shelf?  I am very fond of Cold Steel "Carbon V" which rusts the very second you yield and think about water or salt.  I've some fancy steels with silly 3 diget designations... and none of my best steels came to me ground as good "rigger" paterns.. so I made them myself.  For the average knotter, who isn't going to make a knife... what?  Maybe that is the ticket.  Blade blanks cost about 10% of a good knife of any pattern.  Modification isn't that hard.  Perhaps the best riggrs knife is the one you make out of an extremely high quality blank to your own specifications?   Spend 20$ for a 200$ knife?  I think this drifted of thead. A good "riggers knife" is one that can cut any line you work with in a single pass (no sawing at it).  It can also trim servings and seizings so nobody can find where the end is hidden.  I could go on all night about blades and such.. But should not.  After all, this isn't the International Guild of homemade Blades hehehehe. :D  If anyone wants to chat on that topic lets take it off forum... Email me and I'll talk from experience.
Title: Re: knot books
Post by: Jimbo on January 24, 2006, 07:22:14 AM
Quote
I think this drifted of thead.


Not exactly.  The OP had asked about a certain knife.  As DanL will attest, there's a ton of FUD about knottery; well, likewise with steel.  (Especially Stainless.  More especially the 440 series!!)  No one yet gave much feedback on that part of his post.

As for me, I like my Camillus, but Buck makes a nice one, as well as many other very fine manufacturers.  It really doesn't matter which one you pick, just do it.

Did anyone notice my "bottom line"?  That's paraphrasing Rex Applegate.  The best knife is still (IMNERHO) the one in your hand.  Ashley recommends a hatchet & club, so there.  Any of the knives in my kitchen will cut cordage just as nice as can be, though they may not look too sexy doing so.  Or you could spall off a shard of Chert or glass...

All I can say is, just get any blade you can afford & use it.  If you don't like it, train a friend in knottery, hand-me-down the blade & get yourself a new one.  No problem.

Jimbo