International Guild of Knot Tyers Forum

General => Chit Chat => Topic started by: scott on January 05, 2006, 04:20:36 PM

Title: new stopper knot ???
Post by: scott on January 05, 2006, 04:20:36 PM
   is this a named knot?start with line running from rt. to
left.grasp line with left hand about 6 inches from end,wrap standing end around left thumb 3 or 4 times,
like you would the Steve Dover knot,now take the end in your left hand and wrap it around to the right side and tuck it into and through all the wraps and out the other end.dress and set.I'm new at this knot thing and I dont have ant books to help me name this knot.but I get to name it first !
Title: Re: new stopper knot ???
Post by: roo on January 05, 2006, 09:21:15 PM
To make things clear, could you draw a picture of what you're describing?
Title: Re: new stopper knot ???
Post by: knudeNoggin on January 06, 2006, 06:58:54 PM
Quote
  is this a named knot?start with line running from rt. to
left.grasp line with left hand about 6 inches from end,wrap standing end around left thumb 3 or 4 times,
like you would the Steve Dover knot,now take the end in your left hand and wrap it around to the right side and tuck it into and through all the wraps and out the other end.dress and set.I'm new at this knot thing and I dont have ant books to help me name this knot.but I get to name it first !
Words can work but you need good words.
"running from rt. to left." means the (bitter) end is on the left, SPart rightwards?

"wrap standing end around left thumb"
Is the wrapping to be of the (indefinitely long--maybe attached to a pole, say) SPart,
and around both thumb AND END, wrapping LEFTwards.

"Steve Dover" = "Stevedore"
In the Stevedore stopper, the SPart u-turns and now as end wraps around itself.
Above, is the SPart to wrap back around thumb and end similarly?  (Though
leaving the SPart ultimately still leading rightwards, after final turn/wrap.)

"now take the end in your left hand"
Well, the end has always been in my left hand, just as I did the wrapping with
the SPart, no?

"around the right side" = "around the SPart (indefinitely long end)" ?

"dress & set":  Ha!  There are questions needing clearing up before we can guess
what it is that we might care to dress.  This is yet unsettled.

*knudeNoggin*
Title: Re: new stopper knot ???
Post by: KnotNow! on January 15, 2006, 01:47:57 AM
Hi Steve,
 I'm still hoping for a sketch or photo.  I'll admit to being completly lost in the verbal description.  I hope you come back to us with a little more help.
Title: Re: new stopper knot ???
Post by: scott on January 15, 2006, 04:26:51 PM
I wish I could send a drawing or pic.yes running rt.to lft ,I mean standing end to your right and bitter end to the left.wrap standing end over the bitter end or your thumb.4 wraps.now bring the bitter end over to the right side of the knot and run it through the wraps.it takes a little work to get it dressed but you end up with a side ways looking steve dore or double overhand (tripple overhand?)I hope this helps.  Knot head
Title: Re: new stopper knot ???
Post by: Dan_Lehman on January 16, 2006, 05:58:32 AM
Quote
...  yes running rt.to lft ,I mean standing end to your right and bitter end to the left.wrap standing end over the bitter end or your thumb.4 wraps.now bring the bitter end over to the right side of the knot and run it through the wraps. ...

With this further detail, I come up with something (varied by number of wraps)
one might call an Anchor Bend stopper!?  I.e., the hitch tied around air.
Seems a quick way to secure a lump of rope, but not so good at being snug in that
drawing out inevitable looseness of the wraps is tedious.  One can shift the SPart
from being precisely where it is in the Anchor H. so that it's more *centered* among
the wraps.
Looks like it (what I describe, anyway) could be strong, but then there's this issue
of escaping material under load as it sort of tries to unwrap itself.
Hmmmm, more play time needed ...  ::)

--dl*
====
Title: Re: new stopper knot ???
Post by: SKellyog on January 16, 2006, 07:54:56 AM
It would be appreciated if the moderator could offer a rule here or other... Before a request of this sort : a picture or drawing should be posted, lest the conclusion point in turn to the same ambiguous description contained in the original description/question.    
Title: Re: new stopper knot ???
Post by: roo on January 16, 2006, 09:20:44 AM
Quote
I wish I could send a drawing or pic.


Surely you have access to at least a rudimentary draw program.  You can e-mail a sketch to me and I could post it for you.  My address is on the Notable Knot Index website.

"If a thing is worth doing, it is worth doing badly." -G.K. Chesterton

Title: Re: new stopper knot ???
Post by: Willeke on January 16, 2006, 07:46:51 PM
I do not think we need a drawing with every knot.
And for many people it is hard or even impossible to post a picture with the post.

But this knot does need a little more than scott can tell us.

Scott,
can you draw a line drawing with a marker or pen.
Or can you get someone to take photos while you tie the knot.
If you have no way to make it a digital picture, we can help you to get it on the net, even if it needs using mail and someones scanner.
Maybe you can also try to descibe it as if a blind person, who never tied a knot in his live, has to tie it from what you say.

Willeke
Title: Re: new stopper knot ???
Post by: Dan_Lehman on January 16, 2006, 10:23:21 PM
Quote
I do not think we need a drawing with every knot.
And for many people it is hard or even impossible to post a picture with the post.

But this knot does need a little more than scott can tell us.

I concur in the first but not concluding sentiment.  Scott with another visit
can simply confirm my (correction to my earlier) description/analysis.

I worry that language skills become a lost art in the face of some reliance on graphics!
Words are not that useless, esp. when coupled with some known references.
Scott can confirm my description or amend it as needed, as he did for the previous
point-by-point questions.

But I see one correction right off:  it's not quite
Title: Re: new stopper knot ???
Post by: nautile on January 16, 2006, 10:39:25 PM
Hi!


Is that the knot ( in Brittany-Knots ) ? or is it a "bit like that"

http://charles.hamel.free.fr/BRITTANY-KNOTS/floatsam-B1.jpg
http://charles.hamel.free.fr/BRITTANY-KNOTS/floatsam-B2.jpg
http://charles.hamel.free.fr/BRITTANY-KNOTS/floasam-B3.jpg
http://charles.hamel.free.fr/BRITTANY-KNOTS/floatsam-B4.jpg
Title: Re: new stopper knot ???
Post by: scott on January 17, 2006, 02:57:10 AM
      I think Dan has got it figured out.it does look like a fist,standing part being the arm.If I can I will send a pic or drawing asap.And your idea of moving that last wrap over to the center sounds like a good idea.If tyed rite it shouls stay and not loosen up,but I havent tested it properly.alittle slow to dress and might get tough to undo after a load has been put on it.but I think you got it Dan.is there a name or simmeler knot?


            Scott
Title: Re: new stopper knot ???
Post by: KnotNow! on January 18, 2006, 09:14:42 AM
Hi Scott and fellow knotters,
 I think it is as if I were in a pasture with an astronomer and a telescope and a star searcher.  "You see that star?"  No, which one?  "The little bright one next to the red/green one?" Nope, I can't see it.  Well look to the horizon and come up three finger widths and yada yadda yadda."
 Do you see that without a point of reference it all conversation becomes "yadda yadda"?
 "Hi, I just discovered a new star!"  That's nice.  Where is it?
  Do you see that without some frame of refference and some common terms there can be no hope of our seeing what you see?
  When looking at the stars just seeing "it" is enough but that understanding stars requires great study.
  When looking at knots simply "seeing" it is not enough.. there must be a reason for it to exist.   Stars exist.. just because..  but knots must exist  for a tangible "because".  We need this knot as it is superior to all that have come before.  Or equal to.  But not often because "I just thought of it.".  Be careful of your "new" knots.. and your new stars.
 But of course never stop searching for new knots... and new stars!!!! :D
Title: Re: new stopper knot ???
Post by: KnotNow! on January 18, 2006, 09:00:50 PM
Hi Scott,
 Rereading the posts this AM I sure hope you can post a drawing or photo or two.  Also I am puzzled where this stopper will fit in the progression of existing stoppers.  Start with an ovdrhand knot as the smallest and most primitive, next a figure 8 stopper for a larger diamater and more easily untied stopper, then the stevedore (aka longshoreman) stopper for hardly more bulk than the fig 8 but of long established utility, then the Oysterman Stopper (aka Ashley's stopper) which bulks more diameter than the previous 4 and finally Brion Toss's Sink Stopper.  Beyond that Ashley offers 49 or so terminal or stoppers.  Where would you suggest "Scotts Stopper" fits in the progression?  Since I am still unable to follow the description (my fault as much as anything... just a very visual person) can you lead me to one from ABOK or to a url that will help me see where it fits in the world?  I am very much looking forward to clarification.  
Title: Re: new stopper knot ???
Post by: SKellyog on January 21, 2006, 08:45:42 AM
I concur with Willeke (Moderator) to this extent: the forum should not discourage submissions for the reason that there is no picture or graphic.  But when identification is the concern, the final identification should be posted as a graphic or picture (tho not necessarily by the person asking the question)- the aim being to settle the original question so that IGKT is a good (?the best) place to come to settle an identification question.  

Being an old fan of Monty Python, and after reading the post of PABPRES with reference to stellar identification, it took some time to pick myself off the floor.  Thanks.

I don't want to disparage the power of the written word. It's being eroded ever so quickly.  Visual representation, unless our acuity fails us, is needed for the sake of agreement - this is the web after all.   I agree that written language is worth our investment.  Lets not discourage any questions. But the spoken word is even better - if somene has a knot and no access to a graphic or other, it might be helpful if we could offer a phone number so that the questioner could call, and then describe the knot in some detail to someone of us who has the ability to post a picture or graphic (not always easy).  
My apologies for this odd (ok, obnoxious) post.  My concern is that when the next 500 people want confirmation on whether this is a Blakes hitch, triple crown knot, Eskimo bowline or other, that there be some standard way to communicate agreement if the question is absent a pictorial representation.

Regarding the "new stopper knot," I still want to know : is it "new?"

Title: Re: new stopper knot ???
Post by: KnotNow! on January 22, 2006, 08:43:04 AM
How will we know without a visual image?  Several, if that is what it takes.  Life is hard.
Title: Re: new stopper knot ???
Post by: bazz on January 22, 2006, 02:37:59 PM
How do All,

Scott/ Skellyog,

If you are unable to draw or photograph your knot for any reason, you could send a submission to Nigel Harding, the Guild Secretary, for the attention of The New Knot Claims Board?(someone correct me if I have the wrong title there).
You should include a description, and or diagram of your knot along with samples of the knot tied properly, and also a loose version for easier understanding of the structure, not forgetting to add a proposed name, and possible uses for your knot.


It may be worth sending an email to confirm you are sending your material to the right place,

Guild Secretary: Nigel Harding,  secretary@igkt.net

Hope this helps,
Barry ;)
Title: Re: new stopper knot ???
Post by: Dan_Lehman on January 23, 2006, 09:48:17 PM
"Is it *new*?"

What's "new" 2 U ?
I'll guess that it's not appeared in literature, but who can have searched all that
"literature" encompasses?!  Has anyone ever previously tied it?!  Again, quite an
impossible thing to say.
It's practically new, to me.

Quote
Hi Scott,
 Rereading the posts this AM I sure hope you can post a drawing or photo or two.

Re-reading my description, I'm sure that you can work it out:  you have a left
hand, last time I looked; you know the end from the SPart; you know how to
tie a Stevedore stopper, etc.--the instructions are as clear as a picture would be
(and maybe more so, except by a series of step-by-step images)!  Just get your dang
hands off of the keyboard sending plaintive notes demanding images!  ;D

Quote
 Also I am puzzled where this stopper will fit in the progression of existing stoppers.  Start with an ovdrhand knot as the smallest and most primitive,...

AND--importantly(!!)--the only one that can be tied & set snug against something!

Quote
.. next a figure 8 stopper for a larger diamater and more easily untied stopper,

I don't give it much edge on the former--nil, in practical terms.

Quote
then the stevedore (aka longshoreman) stopper for hardly more bulk than the fig 8 but of long established utility,

Again, not so much extra bulk at its stopper face, but more material & heft.
As for "longshoreman" & "long established", can you justify this assertion?
--as it's contrary CLDay's credit of the name to the COMPANY "Stevedore" who
made/sold ropes, and NOT to the supposed users of the same name.  Again,
overlooked for this knot is that its turns provide extra grip to the SPart and
hence security when slack--preventing loosening, i.e. (unlike the preceding two).

Quote
then ... Ashley's stopper... which bulks more diameter than the previous 4 and finally Brion Toss's Sink Stopper.

Ashley's has a wonderful face, which needs to be set well tight at the point
where the Overhand noose is formed, before drawing that down upon the end.
The Sink Stopper is more a joke than any improvement or enlargement, as the
meander the end takes to be nipped makes it weak against pressure.  For a truly
grande stopper, one can tie Ashley's using a bight (hence, doubled material),
with appropriate deviation--i.e., begin the doubling/twin parts at the Overhand
component.  Unlike Ashley's tying, this knot can be set well tight (tightening
the twin'd Overhand) on tying, with no need for all that "working".

I've seen many stoppers in commercial-fishing gear, where presumably an Overhand
is seconded by another Overhand/half-hitch tying, and which can capsize into
different forms (e.g., into a sort of Reef or into 2HHitches around air); the point
seems to be both bulk & security--longterm--; sometimes a hog ring enforces
the latter.  I'm disappointed and a bit surprised to NOT see Ashley's stopper,
which afterall has appeared in print, and is quite a quick thing to tie; but the
proper tying method hasn't been described, insofar as I've seen, and maybe that
has led folks to misjudge the knot's qualities (though I'd think not).  Really,
to have quick-tying, security, AND broad face, with such economy of material,
recommends the knot to usage, and yet ... ?!

Quote
Where would you suggest "Scotts Stopper" fits in the progression?  Since I am still unable to follow the description (my fault as ...

You're just tired and not trying (or stargazing)!
Scott's Stopper makes for a large, oblong knot, more easily untied than most,
I think; more tedious to tie, dress, & set, too, alas.  And I prefer the dressing
that gets the SPart to come out mid-turns (just by rather crudely overlaying it
at the desired position).

Cheers,
--dl*
====
Title: Re: new stopper knot ???
Post by: roo on January 23, 2006, 11:27:22 PM
Text and graphics are complementary, not competitive, parts of communication.  They both should be used as clearly and concisely as possible.

I once heard a writing professor say that the biggest downfall of his students was their inability or disinclination to use graphics with their writing.
Title: Re: new stopper knot ???
Post by: seabasedm on January 27, 2006, 04:14:19 PM
        Hay Dan, I think you have it figured out,maybe you can send a drawing or pic,and I'll approve it.


                                                                Scott
Title: Re: new stopper knot ???
Post by: Dan_Lehman on January 29, 2006, 09:26:13 AM
Words HAVE worked:  il a fait que j'ai e'crit--voila!  [roughly put, maybe very so :-]

see photographies here (http://tinyurl.com/7gyx3)

::)
Title: Re: new stopper knot ???
Post by: roo on January 31, 2006, 12:06:34 AM
Quote


see photographies here (http://tinyurl.com/7gyx3)



If you subtract a few coils from the knot in the images and roll the stopper knot as if were being loaded, it would seem to be just an overhand, double overhand, or triple overhand knot, depending on how many coils or wraps are subtracted.
Title: Re: new stopper knot ???
Post by: Dan_Lehman on January 31, 2006, 02:20:27 AM
Quote
If ...  it would seem to be just an overhand, double overhand, or triple overhand knot, depending on how many coils or wraps are subtracted.

Of course:  as noted above, it can be tied by a dressing of the Anchor hitch.

(It's giving me some ideas!)


;)
Title: Re: new stopper knot ???
Post by: nautile on January 31, 2006, 04:56:26 PM
You can see a diagram of Scott's stopper on Dan_Lehman method  by clicking here (http://tinyurl.com/bomx2)


xxxxxxxxx

This structural diagram can be used in making a litlle "genetic engineering" using a transposition : End become 'Spart and 'Spart become End : just use the diagram in reverse  by clicking here (http://tinyurl.com/bvua9)


Of course these identical Structures give  TWO different geometry outcome therefore 2  different knots from the point of view of the everyday 3D world. (Structure = the ordely arrangement in sequence of the crossings H&L  and nothing else).
xxxxxxxxx


In the "Original" one 'Spart is perpendicular to the thickness of the "coils serie" in the "Reverse" it is in "alignment with it.
So they will not "function" the same , Hey Dan_Lehman!

The "original" give you a "T" handle" and the "reverse a "I" handle ( 'Spart being the reference )

Nevertheless if it is only a thick stopper you want the "reverse" is IMO much more easy to dress as it comes almost dressed from its laying.
Title: Re: new stopper knot ???
Post by: scott on February 01, 2006, 05:56:38 PM
   you guyes got it.I have seen a knot simmelur to this but it was in line.even a loop.the loop looked like a hangmans noos but the working end adjusted the loop not the standing end.but I cant remember the name.
OK I'll try again.lol.   the other knot that I cant remember the name of.
    start with standing end in left hand and standing end to the left.bitter end running from left to right.now wrap line in coils back over itself moving back to the left.
make as many coiles as you please,about 4 to 7.now feed bitter end down through the coils along the standing part and out the other end of the knot to the right.and dress.when finnished it will look like a line with coiles then the line just comes out the other end.If making the loop,just push a loop through insted of pushing the line end through.I have learnd my knots from the internet.and if I didnt bookmark the page then most time I have lost it.there are two other knots that I have seen on knot pages that the auther did not know the name of.both were loops.maybe nex time.

                                                         arrowhead whittler