International Guild of Knot Tyers Forum

General => Chit Chat => Topic started by: JimC on December 05, 2005, 02:54:09 AM

Title: Dental Floss - Challenge
Post by: JimC on December 05, 2005, 02:54:09 AM
Been trying to find a simple but effective knot to make a loop (say about 6"dia) in "dental floss (tape variety)".

Have tried all the usual suspects:- surgeons, overhand, double overhand, sheet bend, double sheet bend,  figure eight, fishermans, etc. but no success yet. They all slip under strain.

Any suggestions (do try them first)?

Title: Re: Dental Floss - Challenge
Post by: merickson on December 05, 2005, 05:10:10 AM
ABOK #1021 worked for me.

Make a slip knot (pulling on the end undoes the knot).
Take the end and tie a half hitch around the loop just next to the knot.
Done.

http://www.igkt.net/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=news;action=display;num=1126738621
has a discussion of ABOK #1021
Title: Re: Dental Floss - Challenge
Post by: KnotNow! on December 05, 2005, 05:33:44 AM
Hi Jim C,
 Floss can be slippery stuff.  I think I am a little confused so I'll ask you to help me a bit.  Some of the knots you have tried are bends.  None seem to be loop knots, or I may have missundersood... again... one thing I am very good at. ???
 Merickson offered a loop knot.. and your original post mentioned a loop... but I don't think you intend a loop, as at the end of a line.. bowline sort of structure.. nor ABOK #1021, which is a loop knot and works just fine in waxed floss.
 Help me and maybe I can help you.  Are you bending two ends of slippery floss to form a grommet or continous loop?  Are you putting a loop at the end of a line?
 So if Merickson read you correctly you are off and running.. If I read you correctly then there are many fine bends that will never slip, but I need to know if that is where you are searching.  Also if I am correct in that you are looking for a bend... what books do you have.. or I should say do you have ABOK or any of G.Budworth's most excellent books.  This is because since ABOK some knots for slippery stuff have come on board.. and GB has illustrated them most wonderfully... Good luck.  Is it a bend or a loop?
Title: Re: Dental Floss - Challenge
Post by: knudeNoggin on December 05, 2005, 09:01:25 AM
"loop" is one of the most overused knotting terms, and so results in continual
confusion, ambiguity; I take the problem here to be joining ends of slick thin tiny
tape to make a circle of the stuff (to what end, though?  --could make it easier
to use in the mouth (which could lead to making it more likely to be used!)).

Well, thank you for an exercise in most frustrating material!!
Is this going to get us to give up flossing?

In any case, the most obvious solution to my mind to bend to ends of this slick,
tiny tape together is the Blood bend/knot--both for security AND easy tying!
(Did I say "easy"?  >:( )
Well, if you have some tweezers, you can bring each line around on opposite sides
of the tweezer end (or some other device that can pull ends with), and make
relatively easy wraps of the ends around the opposing SPart and then bring both
ends together to be tweezed-nipped and thus pulled through the center point,
and then draw up the knot carefully (perhaps maintaining grip on the ends until
the knot body tightens enough to hold them).

And maybe the Fisherman's would work were one to finish it with the extension
of tucking the ends back down between the two lines at the center before
pulling the Overhand components tight against each other.  (worked for me)
Perhaps some of the knots you found wanting might also work if you take care
to hold the ends while tightening--which can be hard to do in this material.

*knudeNoggin*
Title: Re: Dental Floss - Challenge
Post by: Willeke on December 05, 2005, 02:23:43 PM
As a guiderule, I would say try the knots used in monofilament fishingline.

I do not understand what you need the knot for, but if bulkyness is no problem the books on fishing knots may help you out.

Willeke
Title: Re: Dental Floss - Challenge
Post by: Brian_Grimley on December 05, 2005, 03:47:45 PM
http://www.layhands.com/Knots/Knots_Bends.htm show both the Ashley's Bend (ABOK #1542) and the Zepplin (Rosendahl) Bend. I used these to form a circle by bending the ends: worked for me (no slip before breaking).

http://www.texasgulfcoastfishing.com/perfection_loop.htm shows the Perfection Loop. It formed a nice loop, in the end of a length of dental floss, that didn't slip.

By the way, the dental floss I used was waxed. I wonder if non-waxed floss would give different results.

Cheers - Brian.
Title: Re: Dental Floss - Challenge
Post by: nautile on December 05, 2005, 05:43:02 PM
Not sure I understand all the implications of the first post but : Hope I am not "too much" outside subject.

If practical question on how to hold dental floss : this is, though I suppose every one "do it like that", how I proceeded the last 40 years ( works even with skin humid or slightly soapy ).
I feel always easier to "read" a knot in pic, diagram, drawing than with words that I always feel awkwards and with often the "vector" missing in my understanding.

For the pic it is hemp of about 0,6 mm in diameter ( did not want to   good dental floss of which I realized I need to buy some more as I will be soon on "shortage" and it is easier to see)
Had the devil of a time to take pic with both hands being the "model" ! pencil in mouth, camera behind a magnyfying glass, and ....)


http://tinyurl.com/cpb32


If theorical question for "slippery material"

When I want to play and experiment how "slippy" a structure is :

I use 3 strands nylon about 3/32   or 2.5mm, ( this size make it is still easy to see what is happening )

and apply either liquid silicon lubricant or WD40 ( smelly, for long time  is the WD40       and I prefer silicon, though WD40 insert itself more readily everywhere in the knot).
If it does not slip with that coating I count it as  "not highly likely to slip with a non "greasy" rope".
( of course these substances surely alter the rope but just for testing "slippiness" it is not an adverse effec to take in linet)




Title: Re: Dental Floss - Challenge
Post by: nautile on December 05, 2005, 08:32:32 PM
Hi
This is what I found

26 different dental flosses, made from silk, polyamide (Nylon) or Teflon, were analyzed with respect to their surface structure and their cross-section. Principally, two different types of manufacturing could be distinguished. The dental flosses either consisted of a large number of individual fibers, or a single, falted membrane. Even flosses that were manufactured in the same manner revealed considerable differences.
in http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=8235532&dopt=Abstract

that is important in dental hygien as well as in knot to know that if comparing is to be made. It is not sure that the same "behavoiur" is to be expected with a wide range of "material"
I only knew befor that : silk, polyethylene,  polytetrafluoroethylene, nylon, tefon, and the old, old one : sinew fibers
some are mono filament some are multi-filaments, (braid), some ar so rigid hat they are used "needlelike" (superfloss)
there are thin, medium, thick
There are waxed and not-waxed

so : dental floss can be many things, stating in which one you are making your experiment ( knots only) could be quite important to comparison of "opinions" and "interpretations of results"
Title: Re: Dental Floss - Challenge
Post by: JimC on December 06, 2005, 01:21:35 AM
Sorry I was out of the loop overnight (that happens when you live down under).

Sorry to cause confusion with terminology. KnudeNoggin is right on the money.  What I'm looking for is an easy (as in simple and convienient) way to create a "circle" of the stuff to facilitate the use for which it is designed (no more 'cut-off-circulation' from multiple frapping turns around index fingers).

Obviously be nice to have a solution that doesn't need jewellers tools and eye glass.

I suspect a tripple fisherman's bend would do it but not exactly something that can be tied with eyes half shut in a semi dark bathroom with pink queue at door.

Thanks for suggestions folks.


Title: Re: Dental Floss - Challenge
Post by: roo on December 06, 2005, 01:56:18 AM
Quote
Sorry I was out of the loop overnight (that happens when you live down under).

Sorry to cause confusion with terminology. KnudeNoggin is right on the money.  What I'm looking for is an easy (as in simple and convienient) way to create a "circle" of the stuff to facilitate the use for which it is designed (no more 'cut-off-circulation' from multiple frapping turns around index fingers).

Obviously be nice to have a solution that doesn't need jewellers tools and eye glass.

...



Ah, I see what you're doing.  You can buy flossing tools to spare your fingers, although since I've never tried them, I can't say how easy or effective they are.  

http://tinyurl.com/e2vx6

Maybe you can find some tough flexible tubing to protect your fingers.  ;D
Title: Re: Dental Floss - Challenge
Post by: JimC on December 06, 2005, 05:51:44 AM
Now that would be a solution but not really an answer Roo.

Have tried several of the suggestions and, so for, the Zepplin bend seems to work best, and not to complex either. Thanks Brian.

Regards
JimC
Title: Re: Dental Floss - Challenge
Post by: knudeNoggin on December 06, 2005, 08:28:25 AM
Well, I'm impressed that you can find Rosendahl's "Zeppelin" bend to be the
best of the lot--seems a bother to tie in the fiddly stuff.  (And a bigger bother to
UNtie, as I wanted to do in order to try another knot--finally did so by loading it and
one end slipped out; the other's Overhand then needed prodding & a fine point.)

"a pink queue" :D :  are you tying a new one each time?  --just re-use, like the tooth
brush.  Btw, I've some of those finger-saving things; my impression is that the line
used (was fibrous, not tape) frayed too quickly, and they aren't all so handy.

Another idea:  turn one end around the opposite SPart, and between your fingers
give this newly formed bight a good twisting (moisten fingers for friction?);
then wrap the opp. SPart (i.e., the one just turned around, so far unknotted) around the
twisted bight (same direction makes sense, at least lest one untwist ...) and finish
by tucking this end back between bight head/tip & Spart (a la Sheet Bend, in a way).
Hold both ends and draw up the knot slowly.

You see, I'm looking for easy tying, and for the material ample turns, and a simple
tuck, then careful, all-parts-tensioned setting.
This tape floss is really slick!

*knudeNoggin*
Title: Re: Dental Floss - Challenge
Post by: roo on December 06, 2005, 07:46:47 PM
Quote
Now that would be a solution but not really an answer Roo.

Have tried several of the suggestions and, so for, the Zepplin bend seems to work best, and not to complex either. Thanks Brian.

Regards
JimC


You must not be using Glide.  Glide floss is coated with teflon and so a Zeppelin Bend or just about any other well-known knot just slithers out.    

Next time you are floss shopping, pick some up for some great knotting frustration if not for flossing.  ;)
Title: Re: Dental Floss - Challenge
Post by: JimC on December 07, 2005, 12:44:32 AM
You are right Roo. That was short lived success. Tried another waxier, slipperier brand and zepplin bend doesn't hold in it.

Blood knot holds for awhile but seems the waxxy ribbon stuff will slip out of just about anything.

Back to ABOK.
Title: Re: Dental Floss - Challenge
Post by: Dan_Lehman on December 07, 2005, 01:52:38 AM
Quote
You are right Roo. That was short lived success. Tried another waxier, slipperier brand and zepplin bend ...

=>"Rosendahl's Bend":  it's not just for zeppelin's, ya know.
So, how about making a 2nd finishing tuck w/each end?

Quote
Blood knot holds for awhile but seems the waxxy ribbon stuff will slip out of just about anything.

Here, again, how many tucks are you using in the Blood?
And how much force are you putting on the knot?!  The stated need of a practical
one (not for test machine), and Gliding to my bathroom cabinet I find that although
indeed that thin tape is eel-ishly slick, several of the recommended knots seem to hold
--maybe until being pulled REALLY hard, but at a force that worries me about just
breaking the stuff, anyway.  Just make a 2nd tuck to the Blood, then.
One could off-load the knot a little by making a round turn on one digit with the
knot on the interior, half-way point of this turn.  But, again, what's been tried above
seems adequate to the flossing task.

Quote
Back to ABOK.

Why there?  --Ashley's not familiar with this stuff (or much of synthetics)!
One will need to do exploratory knotting with an eye to using perhaps a few
well-nipped tucks.
Perhaps just make an Offset Overhand (Thumb) Bend after tying the Blood knot
(i.e., tie an Overhand loopknot such that the Blood is centered in the eye, and snug
up the Overhand to this):  the OOB might slip & roll once, but it shouldn't be able
to roll (flype) AROUND the Blood, nor deliver sufficient force to slip through the Blood.

--dl*
====
Title: Re: Dental Floss - Challenge
Post by: roo on December 07, 2005, 03:23:52 AM
Quote
You are right Roo. That was short lived success. Tried another waxier, slipperier brand and zepplin bend doesn't hold in it.

Blood knot holds for awhile but seems the waxxy ribbon stuff will slip out of just about anything.

Back to ABOK.

Here's another approach that's very fast to tie:

Are you familiar with the Stevedore Knot?

http://www.troop7.org/Knots/Stevedore.html

OK, now imagine you tie a Stevedore with the two ends of the floss twinned together, pointing in the same direction.  Oh, and also use a lot more twists.

So you take both ends together, pointing in the same direction, take a bight from them with your index finger and spin, spin, spin, until you're satisfied, and tuck the free ends through the bight loop.

It should take all of two seconds.

(My apologies if this was described by someone else without me realizing it.  Sometimes describing knots with words is tough).
Title: Re: Dental Floss - Challenge
Post by: JimC on December 07, 2005, 04:01:39 AM
Results obviously relative to floss quality. What works on one doesn't work on other.

Have tried between 4-8 tucks on Blood. More tucks increased effectiveness but still collapsed relatively readily on the 'slippery' one. Adding overhand stoppers pretty much solves the problem and works well. Getting a bit complex for purpose though.

Ashley may not be up-to-date on synthetics but I've not seen too many knots in synthetics that are not in ABOK.

Thanks Roo, best solution (I.e. as in most convienient) seems to be putting an overhand stopper on doubled ends then Stevedore knot behind stopper. Putting overhand stopper initially helps to keep everything together too.

Thanks folks
Title: Re: Dental Floss - Challenge
Post by: Brian_Grimley on December 07, 2005, 05:16:10 AM
The "Rosendahl or Zepplin Bend" worked in the Johnson & Johnson Reach (waxed) Floss but not in the Colgate Total (waxed) Coated Dental Floss that I bought today.

The "Spider Hitch Knot", http://www.sdhookandline.com/knots/spiderhitch.html , worked in the Colgate Total (waxed) Coated Dental Floss.  Instead of using a thumb, I found a piece of plastic straw worked just fine, required less thread and helped keep the strands parallel. With the suggested 5 wraps, the floss circle consistantly broke before the knot slipped; with 4 wraps, sometimes it slipped and sometimes it broke.

I must see if I can find some of this "Glide" next time I visit the pharmacy. Will a Glide owner try the "Spider Hitch Knot" and see if it works?

Cheers - Brian.

Ps. To give credit were credit is due: I found the "Spider Hitch" looking at "How to Split Leaders" when I was browsing for ideas in Geoff Wilson's "Complete Book of Fishing Knots & Rigs". I like his work - BG.
Title: Re: Dental Floss - Challenge
Post by: JimC on December 07, 2005, 06:12:34 AM
Colgate "Total" is the slipperiest one I have at the moment and the one that is proving the greatest challenge. Maybe something to do with the cross section too.

Tried the spiderhitch with some success but, after experimenting with different approaches thought, isn't spiderhitch essentially same as stevedore except that the turns are made with the wend and not by twisting the loop. Final result looks pretty much topographically same construct.

 
Title: Re: Dental Floss - Challenge
Post by: Brian_Grimley on December 07, 2005, 04:45:18 PM
JimC asked, " ... isn't spiderhitch essentially same as stevedore ... ?"

With the discussion in the other thread "Tentative Defining of Knot", I would like to tread softly in this reply.   :)

As you know, the stevedore is a stopper knot of two turns while the spiderhitch is a loop knot of five turns. As a result, if I heard or read others using the words, I would say that they are obviously totally different knots.

I think the challenge is to decide what we mean by the adverb essentially.


First Approach

If we replace the doubled strand, in the spiderhitch, with a single strand and remove one turn at a time, we end up with an Overhand knot. Using Nick Wilde's term "deliberate complication" from his definition of a knot in the "Tentative Defining of Knot" thread, we could say that the spiderhitch is a deliberate complication of the Overhand Knot.

If we remove one turn in the stevedore's knot (defined by the site to which Roo linked (see footnote)) we end up with a Figure-of-Eight.  We could say the stevedore is a deliberate complication of the Figure-of-Eight.

As a result, since they are deliberate complications of different knots, I would say that the spiderhitch and the stevedore are essentially different knots.

Second Approach

If again we replace the doubled with a single strand in the spiderhitch and remove half-turns this time, we end up with a different form of the stevedore knot. If we think of a knot as tied, dressed and set, then the "half-turn reduced" spiderhitch and the stevedore can be seen as tied the same, dressed differently and set. For me, the same knot dressed differently is a different knot and the spiderhitch and stevedore are essentially different knots. However, if you think two knots tied the same but dressed differently are the same knot, then the spiderhitch and the stevedore are essentially the same.

As I said at the beginning, I think the challenge is to carefully define what procedure is used to determine the meaning of the phrase "essentially the same".  :)

Cheers - Brian.

Footnote: If you are using the links posted by Roo and myself to tie the knots, it will be less confusing if the stevedore is tied by going "clockwise" down the standing part rather "counter clockwise" as shown here: http://www.troop7.org/Knots/Stevedore.html .
Title: Re: Dental Floss - Challenge
Post by: JimC on December 08, 2005, 12:34:48 AM
Thanks Brian,

You have confirmed my suspicion. What your saying then is that a Stevedore IS essentially the same (I.e. in the topological sense) as a Spiderhitch.

So; If I start a Stevedore - No! If I start a Figure_Eight - No! If I start an Overhand knot with a double strand and make one extra turn I have a Figure_Eight knot of double strand. If I add two extra turns (in total that is - not in addition to) then I have a Stevedore of double strand. If I add five turns of the loop then I have a Spiderhitch!

Makes you think doesn't it, what about the poor cousins? What are we going to call the constructs with three and four turns - Do they not count?

Note: I don't mind being accused of deliberate simplification.

Question: Which way should I tie my Stevedore if I'm using "S" laid rope?

Title: Re: Dental Floss - Challenge
Post by: Brian_Grimley on December 08, 2005, 03:09:22 AM
JimC said, "You have confirmed my suspicion. What your saying then is that a Stevedore IS essentially the same (I.e. in the topological sense) as a Spiderhitch."

Ahhh ... in a topological sense. If you join the ends of the "Spider Hitch Knot" ( http://www.sdhookandline.com/knots/spiderhitch.html ), it quite easily can be "untied" to become a simple circle of cord. This is called a Null Knot.

If by "Stevedore's Knot" you mean the knot shown here, http://www.troop7.org/Knots/Stevedore.html , and if you join the ends, you can not "untangle" it. It is non-Null. The "Spider Hitch Knot" and the "Stevedore's Knot" are not topologically equivalent.

If by "Stevedore's Knot" you mean a loop knot tied with a bight that has the shape of the "Stevedore's Knot", it is called (by some) a Figure-of-Ten loop. If you join the ends of the Figure-of-Ten loop, it can easily be "untied" to become a simple circle of cord. It is a Null Knot.

The "Spider Hitch Knot" and the "Figure-of-Ten" loop are topologically equivalent to each other. In fact, they are topologically equivalent to all knots that can be tied in or with a bight. They are all Null Knots.

Nice chatting with you, Brian.
Title: Re: Dental Floss - Challenge
Post by: JimC on December 08, 2005, 12:41:30 PM
Brian said, "If you join the ends of the "Spider Hitch Knot" it quite easily can be "untied" to become a simple circle of cord. This is called a Null Knot"

Ahhh ... yes, we agree again! Here we are talking about the case where the ends are being narrowly defined as the ends of the cord and not the more general case where the ends are recognised as being the working end and the standing end of the knot construct.

But I'm more confused now. If we take such a narrow interpretation and, in my attempt to create a reliable circle of dental floss, I see I've been using the wrong ends of the floss as the wend end for the Spiderhitch. But, is it not still a Spiderhitch if I use the separated ends as the wend end and leave the send end as the loop rather than the wend end?

But again, and in any case, is it not also the case that a null knot is not a knot but that a null knot is a knot that is not?

Wend will it all end? I think I'm starting to go round in circles and, since that is what I was seeking in the beginning, I'm well satisfied.

Many Thanks Brian. You have given me much to think about.
Title: Re: Dental Floss - Challenge
Post by: Dan_Lehman on December 12, 2005, 10:19:01 AM
While not understanding how the Spider Hitch (a loopknot, which would be a "knot"
by some distinctions and not a hitch by any but anglers' ... ?) can serve the OP's
problem of joining two ends to make a circle (is it being proposed to ring-load the knot?),
I find this "topological"/ "wend"/"stend" chatter getting further confused.

To the question of similarity between Spider & Stevedore, they differ in the one being
formed with a bight to make an eye, and with the tuck of that coming in the orientation
for the Overhand-Fig.9-Fig.11-Fig.<2n+1> series, vs. the other orientation being in the
Fig.8-10-<2n> series.  (Some books show a Fig.9 as the Stevedore, mistakenly.)

But so far as I can glean from instructions & images, the physical arrangement of the
wraps is different, in that those of the Stevedore are expected to go away from the
small eye (where end is tucked), but those of the Spider are to half go away and the
later half to come back over the first, to cascade towards the eye upon setting,
with the hope of imparting a twist in the SPart.

A common problem with anglers' knots is that images of them are usually vague,
to the point that I surmise that many of those presenting them don't actually know
WHAT the knot is supposed to look like--so they fudge it with a tiny scribble.
(And this might explain some of the conflicting indications of strength--actually from
differently dressed/formed knots!)

Before one can talk about topological qualities of practical knots, one needs some
rule for obtaining the t. form.  Consider the Bwl:  how is the end + SPart union
made?  --different results from the two possible connections.
(A separate problem is determining equality:  some things can sure look different,
and moving from one to the other seem impossible, and yet can be done!
Ashley's "Tweenie" (#525) is in fact what is called a "Fig.9" form--the Overhand
with one full turn more, or the Fig.8 with one half-turn more.  But moving from
the elongated, asymmetric form to the symmetric one of 525 is tricky!  And there
are actually TWO symmetric forms that this extended series can take.  --a good way
to get a headache, trying to manipulate the transition from one to the other!

--dl*
====