International Guild of Knot Tyers Forum

General => Practical Knots => Topic started by: xarax on December 04, 2010, 04:19:27 AM

Title: Improving the humble cow hitch
Post by: xarax on December 04, 2010, 04:19:27 AM
Improving the humble cow hitch
Title: Re: Improving the humble cow hitch
Post by: knot4u on December 04, 2010, 05:52:12 AM
That's a Bull Hitch.
http://notableknotindex.webs.com/bullhitch.html

It jams up like a champ if you use it as a regular hitch.  I'll use it for lightweight stuff like rings, lanyards and whatnot.
Title: Re: Improving the humble cow hitch
Post by: Dan_Lehman on December 04, 2010, 07:08:37 AM
That's a Bull Hitch.
http://notableknotindex.webs.com/bullhitch.html

It jams up like a champ if you use it as a regular hitch.  I'll use it for lightweight stuff like rings, lanyards and whatnot.

You need to be more careful, here : XaraX has shown TWO versions
of the Bull Hitch; they behave differently.

I have just pulley-loaded the *coil-in* version --i.e., where the
SPart reaches to the away point of the coil-collar and wraps
back towards the object; and I'm feeling like I'm wrestling with
a "champ", indeed !  (7mm soft-laid CoEx PP/PE, not new, on a 'biner)
(... had to *cheat* to untie : i.e., slid the knot off of the 'biner's gate!)

But the other version took if anything a greater load
(I did some bouncing) and untied pretty easily.

Thinking that adding another turn would ease the difficulty of
the jamming version, I gave it a go : ... "champ" time again!

.:.  It appears that one can pick one's behavior per orientation
(and do so appropriate to need).

--dl*
====
Title: Re: Improving the humble cow hitch
Post by: SS369 on December 04, 2010, 02:46:42 PM
Even using " marks, I'd be very careful saying/naming this an improved Prusik. I have a hunch that it does not actually improve the gripping/sliding action of the Prusik.
A hunch says that it transfers more of the bite to the center, limiting the spread of the grip.
But I do like the idea of adding round turns to some established knots, to ease strain, friction, load bearing ability and ease of untying. Not necessarily all of the before.
And it adds a little "something" to them for me in the decorative knot zone.

Scott
Title: Re: Improving the humble cow hitch
Post by: SS369 on December 04, 2010, 03:47:47 PM
I do think the adding of the additional wraps increases some potential load bearing of the cow hitch, but it still depends upon the actual loads and its behavior, i.e., dynamic or static.
Maybe even more wraps around the we/sp..   Though we may be back to lashings. lol

SS
Title: Re: Improving the humble cow hitch
Post by: knot4u on December 04, 2010, 07:25:10 PM
I tied a Bull.  Then, I tied what looks like your Improved Cow.  Both knots look exactly the same.  If you're saying they're different, then you should loosen those knots in the pics to show the difference.

Anyway, in the original post, let's pretend that both ends have equal lengths.  In that case, the only difference between the two pics would be that one hitch is tied "left-handed" and the other is tied "right handed", right?

BEFORE you go off on an extended lecture, try to answer that question directly, thanks.
Title: Re: Improving the humble cow hitch
Post by: knot4u on December 04, 2010, 09:14:01 PM
Now that I understand the pics, I'm more confident in my naming it a Bull Hitch.  :)

Here's another pic:
http://books.google.com/books?id=GbeV0iKl8EgC&pg=PA120&lpg=PA120&dq=piwich+knot&source=bl&ots=ItGK6RAM3q&sig=KLg1jQv7cGjqjXMMFsezfAkVDUo&hl=en&ei=Mhb2TLXoDYLQsAOQz8CoCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5&ved=0CCgQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=piwich%20knot&f=false

The author shows 6 diagrams of the Bull Hitch.  Examine the diagrams closely.  The author ties it two ways like the two ways in your original post, and he calls each way a Bull Hitch.

 In that case, the only difference between the two pics would be that one hitch is tied "left-handed" and the other is tied "right handed", right?

   Wrong ! The short rope strand is the tail, while the long rope strand is the standing end. You pull the hitch from the standing end! It makes a big difference which one of the two rope strands is the one and which is the other. The short rope strand ends in the frame of the picture, but the long rope strand ends in your hand !

Actually, I'm right.  You conveniently deleted the sentence before, which was there to set up my question.  There is no short rope in my question.  I said pretend the ends are equal length.  I asked the question for my personal understanding of how the knot is tied.  You went ahead and answered a different question that I was not asking.  A simple yes or no to my question would have sufficed.  That's why I asked you not to lecture because, as I predicted, the lecture was useless, as it answered something I was not asking.
Title: Re: Improving the humble cow hitch
Post by: knot4u on December 04, 2010, 09:35:05 PM
After you listen to any short or extended lecture, and before you decide to correct the lecturer, be sure you understood the issue !
Thanks

Apparently, you don't understand the issue.  Your knots in the original post have been published before with color illustrations and pictures.  If you showed pics that are easier to identify, then I could have informed this thread sooner.  However, since you seem to know everything, carry on with your virtual classroom with your virtual students, pretending as if those knots are new when they're not.
http://books.google.com/books?id=GbeV0iKl8EgC&pg=PA120&lpg=PA120&dq=piwich+knot&source=bl&ots=ItGK6RAM3q&sig=KLg1jQv7cGjqjXMMFsezfAkVDUo&hl=en&ei=Mhb2TLXoDYLQsAOQz8CoCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5&ved=0CCgQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=piwich%20knot&f=false

Regards
Title: Re: Improving the humble cow hitch
Post by: SS369 on December 04, 2010, 10:44:46 PM
Communication is an high art and it seems that we get stuck sometimes finger painting.

I am enjoying (up to a point) this discourse that has perhaps been looked at or tried by many others before us, but I do not want to stifle the process in any way except to ask that we stay on track and not dive into the heated abyss to which no one really succeeds.
The smell down there is vile.
Just distractions.
To whomever: Please continue to write away in intelligent fashion so that we can, with open minds, give considerations to what is presented.
Title: Re: Improving the humble cow hitch
Post by: admin on December 04, 2010, 10:49:42 PM
Korgan: Can you please moderate your language? Not everyone appreciates a discussion that veers into Anglo-Saxon invectives. ;) If a thread begins to annoy you, I can heartily recommend the "Mark as read" button.

Thank you.
Title: Re: Improving the humble cow hitch
Post by: SS369 on December 05, 2010, 12:47:15 AM
The added round turns encircling the hitched to object certainly does not hurt to spread load as shown in the pictures, but I do wonder if additional nipping turns are worth anything. Unless there is a pendulous swinging action then these additional rings of cord can spread across the nipped area.

I think it better to keep this hitch in its simplest form and if the need is greater, graduate to a more likely hitch to better suit the situation.
Title: Re: Improving the humble cow hitch
Post by: Dan_Lehman on December 05, 2010, 03:33:24 AM
 If you showed pics that are easier to identify, then I could have informed this thread sooner.

???

You informed this thread immediately --the first reply.
To which I followed up with a point about the effective differences
between the two orientations.  This should have informed you and
anticipated/precluded your later antagonizing questions.

Good find with Budworth, who glosses over the differences without remark
--typical of knots books (and a thorny question about making Book Reviews
to point out the lazy presentations of celebrated IGKT members in their own
quarterly! --a current thread under ChitChat).

 - - - - -

I concur in Scott's doubting the "improved Prusik hitch" vis-a-vis that
knot's raison d'etre ; but with regard to Knot4U's point about jamming,
one can view this Prusik variation as what XaraX casts it as (if only nomimally),
viz. an improved Cow --the improvement being an extra wrap around the
object to absorb force and mitigate the risk of jamming (when used,
as Knot4U implies, to secure a circular sling to something) : i.e., one can
get more moderate tightness in the knot-securing turns around its ends
(and for what it's worth, some better security at holding its position on
the object, to boot).

--dl*
====
Title: Re: Improving the humble cow hitch
Post by: knot4u on December 05, 2010, 07:53:01 PM
An important note, I don't consider the Bull to be an improvement of the Cow.  I tie the Cow specifically because the Cow has NO hold when there is no load.  That's not a flaw.  That's a feature.  The Bull removes this feature and competes in the realm of tightly holding hitches, such as the Buntline, the Anchor Bend, the Lobster Buoy, the Round Turn With Two Halfs, the Boom, etc.  I don't view the Cow as being in this space, and the unique features of the Cow are highly preferable sometimes.  By the way, I like to secure the working end of the Cow with a Double Bowline for a combination that is quick tying/quick releasing.  This combination is usually my anchor knot in a Trucker's Hitch.
Title: Re: Improving the humble cow hitch
Post by: knot4u on December 05, 2010, 09:13:25 PM
  I tie the Cow specifically because the Cow has NO hold when there is no load. That's not a flaw.  That's a feature. .. the unique features of the Cow are highly preferable sometimes.

  So you are saying that the Bull hitch - at least those two variations that I have considered in my first post, because the "Bull hitch X" variation is a little different on this, - destroys a feature of the Cow hitch that enables it to revolve around and/or move alongside the poles s axis freely, without been hooked to a certain position by any occasional loading.
   I had not this feature in mind when I was looking for its "improvement" by the addition of the nipping loops(s), obviously. On the contrary, I was searching for ways to improve the gripping power of the Cow hitch, or of the "Bull hitch X", even while it is not loaded, and ways to secure the one end, the tail, even after it has been loaded. That was my intention in the case of the Prusik, too, at least for the case where the loaded ends are at right angle with the pole s axis. The existence of the nipping loop(s) prevent the wraps of "eating" rope length out of the standing end or the tail, so the hitch remains in a tightened state around the pole even when it is not loaded.

If you want security when unloaded, then yes the Bull is obviously an improvement on the Cow.  Regarding the Prusik, I view that knot as a similar concept to the Cow.  When not loaded, the releasing of the Prusik is a feature, not a flaw.  If you add the nipping loops, you place these knots (Cow and Prusik) into competition with a wide host of other options that are more likely to be preferable.  It all depends on the application obviously.
Title: Re: Improving the humble cow hitch
Post by: knot4u on December 06, 2010, 05:57:33 PM
To address jamming issues, I tested a Slipped Bull.  On the positive side, the Slipped Bull (each variation) works well to address jamming issues, and it's a compact knot.

On the negative side, the other limitations with the Bull are also present in the Slipped Bull.  The Slipped Bull must be flush against the object to work properly, or else the knot capsizes and does not hold securely.  For example, the Slipped Bull works well with relatively small round objects, but does not work well with large square objects.  In contrast, a Round Turn Plus Slipped Buntline holds securely with a wide variety of object shapes and sizes.
Title: Re: Improving the humble cow hitch
Post by: knot4u on December 06, 2010, 07:57:22 PM
  Which knot do you call by the name "Slipped Bull hitch" and which "Bull hitch"? What is the part of the knot that is "slipped"?
  I thought that you were suggesting the name "left-handed" and "right handed" "Bull  hitch" for the two variations in the pictures of my original post.

I slipped both versions in your original post or both versions here:
http://books.google.com/books?id=GbeV0iKl8EgC&pg=PA120&lpg=PA120&dq=piwich+knot&source=bl&ots=ItGK6RAM3q&sig=KLg1jQv7cGjqjXMMFsezfAkVDUo&hl=en&ei=Mhb2TLXoDYLQsAOQz8CoCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5&ved=0CCgQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=piwich%20knot&f=false

The slip involves nipping a bight at the final exit of the working end.  It's the most obvious way to slip it.  Don't over think it.
Title: Re: Improving the humble cow hitch
Post by: Dan_Lehman on December 06, 2010, 08:01:26 PM
I tie the Cow specifically because the Cow has NO hold when there is no load.

The Cow hitch has ample hold in many materials qua ring hitch,
where it improves on the Clove hitch in being easier to loosen & untie.

Quote
To address jamming issues, I tested a Slipped Bull.  On the positive side, the Slipped Bull (each variation) works well to address jamming issues, ...

Your testing is insufficient (and you gave few specifics).
Repeating the quick-test I did with quarter-inch laid CoEx-PP/PE
I find the jammed slipped distal** Bull hitch damn-jammed.
Getting the round-turn collar to slip over the 3 diameters of the
knot is maybe harder than doing so for just the 2 dia. of the
unslipped version --the trio of strands making the ideal circular
grouping of material to be compressed & nipped without need
of as much bending of the encircling wraps.
-- I'll have to "cheat" and take this hitch off of the 'biner
by sliding it, then untying it!   ouch!

[** "distal" in a quick "away" denotation in reference to the
Bull H.'s nipping coil-collar; "proximal" would be the other loading.]

NB:  It is bad to refer simply to "the Bull hitch" without further indication
of the particular loading, as behavior depends upon that.

--dl*
====
Title: Re: Improving the humble cow hitch
Post by: alpineer on December 06, 2010, 08:37:02 PM
I dedicate this knot to xarax. I call it the PILE O' BULL HITCH! ;D
Title: Re: Improving the humble cow hitch
Post by: knot4u on December 06, 2010, 09:37:57 PM
Your testing is insufficient (and you gave few specifics).
Repeating the quick-test I did with quarter-inch laid CoEx-PP/PE
I find the jammed slipped distal** Bull hitch damn-jammed.
Getting the round-turn collar to slip over the 3 diameters of the
knot is maybe harder than doing so for just the 2 dia. of the
unslipped version --the trio of strands making the ideal circular
grouping of material to be compressed & nipped without need
of as much bending of the encircling wraps.
-- I'll have to "cheat" and take this hitch off of the 'biner
by sliding it, then untying it!   ouch!

[** "distal" in a quick "away" denotation in reference to the
Bull H.'s nipping coil-collar; "proximal" would be the other loading.]

NB:  It is bad to refer simply to "the Bull hitch" without further indication
of the particular loading, as behavior depends upon that.

--dl*
====

Basically, the performance of the Slipped Bull in your testing is even worse than what I found.  How you managed to jam a Slipped Bull Hitch, I don't know, but I'll take your word for it that you could.

By the way, I indicated above that I tested both variations from the original post.  I tested that cheap rope from Home Depot.  I also tested boot laces.  I used various different object shapes and sizes.  The performance was too poor to get me motivated to write too many more details here.
Title: Re: Improving the humble cow hitch
Post by: Dan_Lehman on December 07, 2010, 12:46:27 AM
Basically, the performance of the Slipped Bull in your testing is even worse than what I found.  How you managed to jam a Slipped Bull Hitch, I don't know, but I'll take your word for it that you could.

?!  It jams just as any other knot would.  If you can liberate
this knot by pulling out a slip-bight --i.e., getting a strand to
move through the round-turn nip--, then you could loosen
the knot by moving the round turn back on the SPart/tail
and readily break the knot.  As I said, having the 3rd strand
to surround might even add to the tightness as its a little
easier for the turn to flow and increase tension around 3 strands.

Quote
By the way, I indicated above that I tested both variations from the original post.  I tested that cheap rope from Home Depot.  I also tested boot laces.  I used various different object shapes and sizes.  The performance was too poor to get me motivated to write too many more details here.

Yes, both versions, you said, re the slipped knot.  Now, if
you got jammed rope with the "proximal" (XaraX's righthand in OP)
version (unslipped or otherwise), that's hard to figure!  With boot
laces (flat, round, ...?) you can give pretty high relative force rather
easily; with the Home Depot (3/8" ?) kermantle, no so easily.
I used a pulley (5:1 but hardly in great working order) and body
wgt (180#) w/some bounces --and that's a serious load; should
be well more than my rope's WLL, for that matter.

 - - - - - - -

One could revise the knot with the following variation:

  make a full (round) turn and then flow into the round-turn
  collar ; finish as usual.  (not sure what Alpineer's done--maybe this)

The tail has the collar-tightening advantage and so the knot
can be set pretty tight ; the SPart is impeded from making
the knot overly tight by both the version choice (the "proximal"
version --SPart wrapping into collar away from object--,
and the extra turn around the object further impeding delivery
of force into the nipping collar.

It should be remarked that we here might have all been hitching
to a smooth object (e.g., I to a 'biner, as a ring hitch); but the
transmission of force around a rough object (tree limb, say) is
far less, and the jamming (even setting tight) harder to get.


--dl*
====
Title: Re: Improving the humble cow hitch
Post by: knot4u on December 07, 2010, 12:57:38 AM
?!  It jams just as any other knot would.  If you can liberate
this knot by pulling out a slip-bight --i.e., getting a strand to
move through the round-turn nip--, then you could loosen
the knot by moving the round turn back on the SPart/tail
and readily break the knot.

???

I don't see how the part after the word "then" logically follows what comes before it.

If a Bull Hitch is jammed (whichever variation), then it's difficult to "loosen the knot by moving the round turn back on the SPart/tail and readily break the knot".  However, a Slipped Bull Hitch (whichever variation) comes loose relatively easily with a firm yank of the working end.  The slip option is there for someone who wants to ensure the knot will be easy to untie.
Title: Re: Improving the humble cow hitch
Post by: knot4u on December 07, 2010, 01:52:12 AM
The Cow hitch has ample hold in many materials qua ring hitch,
where it improves on the Clove hitch in being easier to loosen & untie.

I agree that the Cow Hitch has ample hold when there is loading.  Without loading, the Cow Hitch has essentially no hold.  In other words, the internal forces of the knot are not doing much to keep the knot pressed tightly against the object.  Again, I view that as a feature, not a flaw.
Title: Re: Improving the humble cow hitch
Post by: Dan_Lehman on December 07, 2010, 04:33:27 AM
... The slip option is there for someone who wants to ensure the knot will be easy to untie.

This is specious, as I showed : in a truly jammed knot, there is
no effective "slip option" --nothing moves.  (And even if by some
force multiplier (capstan, winch) to assist, in many ropes there
will be at least some *snow-plowing* effect AND a bulge of a
folded slip-bight tip that will not pull out.)

.:.  With the Bull Hitch variations (of which only the "distal" one
is much a jam threat, I think), if one can move a strand within
the collar's nip, then one should be able to move a half-turn
of the collar and continue such working to break the knot
--it is movement of whichever, relative to the other : strand
to collar or vice versa (jamming denying both).

--dl*
====
Title: Re: Improving the humble cow hitch
Post by: knot4u on December 07, 2010, 04:51:25 AM
This is specious, as I showed : in a truly jammed knot, there is
no effective "slip option" --nothing moves.

???

I have jammed a Buntline where a Slipped Buntline would not be jammed.  I consider a knot to be jammed if I can't work it loose after a reasonable amount of time.  A slip provides a leverage that is otherwise non-existent without the slip.

Anyway, I don't even know why I'm arguing with you.  A Slipped Bull Hitch was clearly easier to untie to a regular Bull Hitch in some testing I did, and the other characteristics of the knot did not appear to change.
Title: Re: Improving the humble cow hitch
Post by: Dan_Lehman on December 07, 2010, 05:10:59 AM
I dedicate this knot to xarax. I call it the PILE O' BULL HITCH! ;D

Hot dang, good show!  We could use some new old blood here,
even with purple rope.

Now, what's the point of this Pile o' Bull?  --looks to me as though
it could do with more turning, to become adequately secure when slack.

You are aware that rockclimbers might have a use for the Bull Hitch,
or what they might prefer to call "an Improved Girth Hitch" --using
it to keep in place a typically tape sling/runner on a chickenhead
or extending piton (huh?  who uses such things, you say!).  For
the former --i.e., on a relatively large-diameter object--, it might
be better to replace the Bull's round turn with a Clove Hitch (i.e.,
the loaded parts are drawn through a nipping Clove Hitch).

Which reminds me that I was just fiddling around with a structure
derived from a slip-knot/-noose for such a purpose.

--dl*
====
Title: Re: Improving the humble cow hitch
Post by: Dan_Lehman on December 07, 2010, 05:59:11 AM
This is specious, as I showed : in a truly jammed knot, there is
no effective "slip option" --nothing moves.

???

[transient version 1 :-]
That statement is untrue in my world.  I can tie a Buntline that will be considered jam by people who don't have special powers.  I can then tie a Slipped Buntline right next to it in the same conditions, just slipped.  I would be able to untie the Slipped Buntline relatively quickly.  A slip provides a leverage that is otherwise non-existent without the slip.  In contrast, the jammed Buntline would have to be cut after I wrestle with it for five minutes only to make it tighter and tighter.

[version 2]
I have jammed a Buntline where a Slipped Buntline would not be jammed.  I consider a knot to be jammed if I can't work it loose after a reasonable amount of time.  A slip provides a leverage that is otherwise non-existent without the slip.

Anyway, I don't even know why I'm arguing with you.  A Slipped Bull Hitch was clearly easier to untie to a regular Bull Hitch in some testing I did, and the other characteristics of the knot did not appear to change.

I was hoping we wouldn't have to consider the peculiarities of other worlds
or conjecture myself special powers.  But you do come up with some strange
observations and so I must wonder ... .  As told, I did the quick testing that
I reported, with the serious pulley-generated forces which amount to hundreds
of pounds.

Now, I had at one point (in a too transient text) put in some
allowance for exceptions re my assertion about slipping's merits
being specious, and then trying to focus on the OP's knots as
heeding the rule, but that ... well, was transient indeed.  Still,
I might grant that some "YMMV" applies depending upon the
knot structure, where the slip-bight might come under less
stricture but the usual points of breaking the knot be jammed.

And I thought that you might've landed one right away, with
the Buntline, and so I have now given that some quick testing
too --same materials : the quarter-inch CoEx laid rope and 3/8"
(multifilament PP?) "Home Depot" rope (I found it, so can't
speak w/assurance re its origins --but it fits the description).
The former is more frictive than the latter, which yet has some
*new* feel & slickness.  .:.  In both cases, I was able to break
the Buntlines by pushing the outer turn w/thumb, working on
the away-from-SPart side of the turn in the CoEx case, which
was the more tightly jammed.  (force?  well, the 'biners were
locked from stretch --I think they are supposed to be able to
be opened at at least 200#, by UIAA standards?  --Alpineer?)
And in both cases, pulling the slip-bight tail was not very
helpful --harder (& futile?) w/CoEx; likely problematic in
the harder-loaded, 2nd time, with Home Depot, at the
point of the final bulge coming to the knot (the very bight-end
bulking, w/torque, to boot).  Still, I'll allow that perhaps in
some stretchy Nylon under suitable load the material extension
could lead to a tight nip of the diminished-diameter SPart
such that on relaxation the SPart could not feed back into
the knot, and the tight nip would be considered jammed,
and yet the tightness upon the slip-bight might not be
so great as to preclude its coming undone.  That sure
wasn't the case for my two ropes around a 'biner, ring
hitches.

And I'll reiterate that there was NO MOVEMENT in the case
of the jammed Bull Hitch (distal).

Now, if in your world you're playing with tiny stuff such
as boot laces, you will have (1) much more difficulty in
getting the sort of *push* purchase because of such great
disparity between your digit size & material diameter; AND
(2) you'll have "Paul Bunyan" strength advantage for pulling
a slip-bight out.  (Though we should remark that for the Bull
Hitch the slip-bight's tail isn't well oriented to be pulled, as
it points back at the hitched object; one might hold the SPart
and pull ... , but that's awkwards.)  But I should hope that
you (and if not, at least others) will come to see that your
belief that one can adequately test knots by using small
stuff and then project that behavior more broadly is highly
dubious.


--dl*
====
Title: Re: Improving the humble cow hitch
Post by: knot4u on December 07, 2010, 06:15:18 AM
This issue is not that complicated and unworthy of this much attention.  Bottom line, I'll still be using a slip in my Buntlines and many other knots because they otherwise jam on me.
Title: Re: Improving the humble cow hitch
Post by: Dan_Lehman on December 09, 2010, 07:35:25 AM
This issue is not that complicated and unworthy of this much attention.  Bottom line, I'll still be using a slip in my Buntlines and many other knots because they otherwise jam on me.

Complexity is not at all what is at issue here,
but observation/testing and reporting,
which certainly IS worthy of attention for it's what
knotting has been lacking for so long.  And so it is quite
a curious thing to see such conflicting reports of behavior.

And I should not be the only one checking these claims
of jamming or superior strength or whatever.  But at least
I have been checking.

--dl*
====
Title: Re: Improving the humble cow hitch
Post by: xarax on February 24, 2012, 03:32:04 PM
   If we use more coils, we can pre-tighten the two standing ends of the improved Cow hitch / Bull hitch, and this pre-tightening will able the coils to remain perpendicular to the axis of the pole, be squeezed between their neighbour coils, and grip it very tightly, even during a lengthwise pull. ( See the attached pictures, and read the posts at (1), and all the other posts there, describing the "pre-tensioning" / pre-stressing effect. ).
   The long, double X "neck" will nip the two standing ends sufficiently, and retain this blockage even when the standing ends are not pulled any more. So, the standing parts will not be allowed to slip though it, and release their tension, and the enhanced friction of the coils with the surface of the pole.

1. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3794.msg22221#msg22221
Title: Re: Improving the humble cow hitch
Post by: SS369 on February 24, 2012, 03:48:48 PM
Very good xarax!

This is and has been my preferred knot on my Purcell prusik. It makes the foot loop so much easier to use. It stays in shape throughout all the gyrations of ascending.

SS
Title: Re: Improving the humble cow hitch
Post by: xarax on February 24, 2012, 04:24:03 PM
   Thank you SS369,

   I am not accustomed to such helpfull, nice words in this forum, so I can not say I am not just a little happy with them... :)
   I have posted some similar hitches somewhere in this forum, but I do not remember where any more...See how I have named them !  :)
Title: Re: Improving the humble cow hitch
Post by: SS369 on February 24, 2012, 05:16:05 PM
The four diameter "prusik" is interesting and I will have a go using it on a climbing rope soon as the weather allows.
My initial, knee-jerk response is that it will not be as good to the task I will use it for than the prior "improved cow hitch" you've share pictures of in reply #28.
These latest look like they will bight too deeply, concentrating the load mainly to the area between the encircled four diameters and the rope/pole and not through the coils.

I'll have a better comment once my weight has been on it and gyrated a bit. ;-)

The other (the first two pictures) look like they as well will bite too hard and therefore make this knot harder to release for the use in ascending a rope or backing up a rappel, grip and slide scenarios, etc. The x'd crossings being like the related parts of a constrictor, locking whatever is underneath very hard.

SS
Title: Re: Improving the humble cow hitch
Post by: xarax on February 24, 2012, 09:29:58 PM
The other (the first two pictures) look like they as well will bite too hard and therefore make this knot harder to release for the use in ascending a rope or backing up a rappel, grip and slide scenarios, etc. The x'd crossings being like the related parts of a constrictor, locking whatever is underneath very hard

   That was the purpose of the double parallel or the double crossed ( X ) neck... that is, to bite hard into the standing ends, and prevent any subsequent slippage of them through it. Do not let the (superficial) name suggest we are looking for any sort of a climbing hitch here, that would need to be released easily, when "used in ascending a rope or backing up a rappel, grip and slide scenarios, etc." Perhaps  the name is really  misleading, and we should describe those knots only as "multi-coiled Bull hitches". It was just a hard gripping hitch around a pole that I was looking for here, without any concern for easiness of tying or untying, possibility of sliding alongside the pole or tensioned rope, etc.
   I believe that the climbing hitches is an altogether other world, strange and unknown to me... The functions that climbing hitches have to fulfill, are many, and much more complex than what we require of a common hitch. I would never dare to suggest any climbing friction hitch to climbers, or pretend I have discovered a way to "improve" the Prusik...  :)
   I have also to point out that it is a very different thing to tie those hitches around  a pole, than to tie them around a tensioned rope. I am talking here about the fact that a segment of the pole can not revolve in relation to another, as it can happen in a rope. When the standing ends pull the ends of the coil tube to one direction, say, clockwise, while the transverse, bight element pull the other ends to the other, counter-clockwise, a rope at the core of the coil can adjust itself and follow the local twisting, by twisting itself, while a pole can not. A rope can never resist to torsion forces as much as a pole ! So the final geometry, and the tension forces inside the different segments of the coil tube, would be different at the hitch-around-a-rope, than at the hitch-around-a pole. In short, I expect those hitches to be more effective when wrapped around poles, than when wrapped around ropes.
Title: Re: Improving the humble cow hitch
Post by: rickan on November 02, 2013, 11:38:00 AM
Thank you, xarax, for sending me here! I'd found some stuff on the cow hitch on this forum before I posted my bull hitch but didn't get to this topic.