International Guild of Knot Tyers Forum

General => Chit Chat => Topic started by: Joe McNicholas on October 13, 2010, 02:40:02 AM

Title: Irish hitch (new knot)
Post by: Joe McNicholas on October 13, 2010, 02:40:02 AM
The Irish hitch is the strongest knot.  It doubles the cow hitch in an endless loop halfing the length of the of the material.
Doubling the strength.  (200%) breaking strength.
The name comes from the Hill of Tara
( Ireland).
The knot,  when tyed in webbing is flat.
Joe :)
Title: Re: Irish hitch (new knot)
Post by: Rrok007 on October 13, 2010, 04:23:31 AM
endless loop? Is this made with infinite rope?
Title: Re: Irish hitch (new knot)
Post by: Joe McNicholas on October 13, 2010, 04:26:56 AM
Think of a rubber band
Title: Re: Irish hitch (new knot)
Post by: Rrok007 on October 13, 2010, 04:32:11 AM
So what is it's connection to the Hill of Tara?
Title: Re: Irish hitch (new knot)
Post by: Joe McNicholas on October 13, 2010, 04:49:15 PM
Check the web 's image of the hill of tara from above!
Title: Re: Irish hitch (new knot)
Post by: Rrok007 on October 13, 2010, 06:26:32 PM
Okay, I say the images and I understand the reference, though I'd suggest that ... were this a new knot, I'd call it Tara's Hill Hitch or something similar. Just as I'd have called your "Italian" bowline something other than Italian... the Nation-based naming really isn't that great of a scheme.

.....

Having said all of that... I've seen this knot before. In a book. Recently.

It was about 4-6 weeks ago in Barnes and Knobles. It was in the Sports section in the books that transition between mountain climbing and sailing. I don't remember the book name itself. I think it had something to do with unusual or unique knots or something like that. It's a hardback book, divided into colored sections, with the entire page, not just the edge in that color. The spine is designed so it can lay flat I think. It even gave some historical or useful information on each knot

And it was named something more appropriate to it's description, grommeted cow-hitch or double-reverse... I don't remember but it was basically referred to as a cow hitch variation. In fact, the illustrations you posted in your post are almost identical to those from the book, though I believe the illustrations are of a different colouring.


Wish I could remember the name of the book, now I'm gonna have to stop by the bookstore and see if I can find it.
Title: Re: Irish hitch (new knot)
Post by: Sweeney on October 13, 2010, 06:51:27 PM
I recognised this too - it is in a book called "What Knot?" by Geoffrey Budworth and Richard Hopkins published in 2007 (page 182) and called a "ring hitch, double ended". The illustration in the book shows the knot tightened which gives the appearance of a reef/square knot (a bit like "Asher's Equalizer" used with a bottle sling). If there is a difference then it is is marginal - this is not a new knot by any definition.
Title: Re: Irish hitch (new knot)
Post by: Rrok007 on October 13, 2010, 06:56:47 PM
I do believe that's the book I'm thinking of.
Title: Re: Irish hitch (new knot)
Post by: Joe McNicholas on October 13, 2010, 07:37:50 PM
I invented this knot in 2002 Patented and published in 2003
Showed Geoffery Budsworth in 2003 name changes to ring hitch doubled later that year and republished in England by The Ivy Press Limited (old candlemakers, west street, Lewis,East Suxxex, BN7 2NZ)
The directory of KNOTS by  John Shaw.
So, I can see your confusion.  Joe
Title: Re: Irish hitch (new knot)
Post by: Wed on October 13, 2010, 08:18:17 PM
I invented this knot in 2002 Patented and published in 2003
Showed Geoffery Budsworth in 2003 name changes to ring hitch doubled later that year and republished in England by The Ivy Press Limited (old candlemakers, west street, Lewis,East Suxxex, BN7 2NZ)
The directory of KNOTS by  John Shaw.
So, I can see your confusion.  Joe
Posting this kind of information in the very first post, is probably a very good idea.
Title: Re: Irish hitch (new knot)
Post by: roo on October 13, 2010, 11:15:05 PM
I invented this knot in 2002 Patented and published in 2003
???
What's the patent number?  I hope you didn't pay too much to get that patent.
Title: Re: Irish hitch (new knot)
Post by: SS369 on October 14, 2010, 02:15:02 AM
Irish hitch
United States Patent Application 20030178852
The Irish hitch is a flat knot that combines two cow hitches together to form a new knot. The Irish hitch is twice as strong.

The knot doubles the material of the cow hitches [FIG. 2]. The Irish hitch [FIG. 3] is a flat knot and is superior to two knots.

The knot is secure and can hold when the load shifts.

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/y2003/0178852.html (http://www.freepatentsonline.com/y2003/0178852.html)


Title: Re: Irish hitch (new knot)
Post by: Rrok007 on October 14, 2010, 05:03:42 AM
Which means that the knot is now completely useless because if I use it without permission, I can be sued...


The problem I see with this is that, as presented, it has little application outside of using it for luggage tags or similar situations. The loop has to be big enough for the object with the original cow hitch to pass through it after it has been passed around another object and sown through the first cow hitch.

If used as pictured with two rings, you've only doubled the strength between the two rings. One of those rings has to be free from secure attatchment in order for the loop to pass over it again, which introduces a new break point.
Title: Re: Irish hitch (new knot)
Post by: Joe McNicholas on October 14, 2010, 06:22:53 AM
I spent ?200 american dollars.  
You have my permission to use this hitch
Thank you!
The webbing can be attached to an eye then bolted to the sec ond object.
Title: Re: Irish hitch (new knot)
Post by: knudeNoggin on October 14, 2010, 07:47:19 AM
I invented this knot in 2002 Patented and published in 2003
Showed Geoffery Budsworth in 2003 name changes to ring hitch doubled later that year and republished in England by The Ivy Press Limited (old candlemakers, west street, Lewis,East Suxxex, BN7 2NZ)
The directory of KNOTS by  John Shaw.
So, I can see your confusion.  Joe

If you showed G. Budworth, what did he say?
Did he say "This is a new knot!" ?  Or did he
just say "Thank you for showing this knot to me."?
Did you also show the knot to John Shaw, and what
did he say?  What does his book say?

In whatever case or history, this sling joining makes an interesting
tag attachment as you have photographed.  (Why do you duplicate
each image, by the way?)  It lets the tag and attachment point
float around in the big loop parts.  (But for this use, I don't think
there is much concern about the strength aspect, do you?)

*kN*
Title: Re: Irish hitch (new knot)
Post by: Sweeney on October 14, 2010, 10:03:39 AM
Joe

Has your patent been granted? If not what is the status of your application? I ask because where knots are concerned it is unusual to say the least for a patent to be granted not least because it is usually impossible to prove that the knot is original. It regularly happens that a "new" knot turns out to have been discovered some time ago (perhaps the most famous being Hunter's Bend - Dr Hunter did devise a method of tying but the knot itself was not original). The difficulty is that often someone devises a knot, uses it and perhaps it becomes widely used but never published in a book.
Title: Re: Irish hitch (new knot)
Post by: Rrok007 on October 14, 2010, 06:28:30 PM
I spent ?200 american dollars.  
You have my permission to use this hitch
Thank you!
The webbing can be attached to an eye then bolted to the sec ond object.

Okay, I am not unwilling to admit when I am short-sighted. While I'm sure there are better methods, I could easily see this as useful somehow to climbers.

To me, I think, the best use of this knot would not be with a closed loop, but rather an open one. Doing so, the ends run through the cow hitch, wrap around to the back, and then fed through a slide/slidelock mechanism. In such a tie, it makes an easy to learn cincher like how the truckers hitch is used.
Title: Re: Irish hitch (new knot)
Post by: Dan_Lehman on October 16, 2010, 07:00:26 AM
The NKCAC was formed in order to focus the attention of dedicated
and interested expertise on submittals of "new knots" --be they claims
by a supposed "inventer" or queries from the merely curious.  Part of
the hope was to be a filter on Knotting Matters to spare it consuming
pages for what could be more efficiently & effectively dealt with directly.

Given the capabilities of the Net, this forum provides even better access
to information, though I might still receive some hard mail from time to
time (10/15, in fact -- a (re-)invented traced Strangle bend, aka "Surgeon's
Knot"
by anglers.  Something like that is better not a KM article!

In the present case, the IGKT had some experience ca. 2003 with Mr.
McNicholas : his "Irish Bowline" presentation was forwarded to me by
Brion Toss, and the "Fig.8 Bowline" (since, finding Italian heritage)
via IGKT offices.  But queries --hard- & e-mail-- in response to these
items were not answered, and w/o a missing-persons  search or something,
there was little more to do.

Re the OP, it is something to be proud of to have discovered a clever
securing of a sling such as this.  However, it is a pride that others might
share, and --as Barry/Sweeney points out-- I'm sure that Harry Asher was
tickled (as was his wont) with his "Equalizer" discovery --i.e., THIS same
bight-locking structure.  One can find "Asher's Equalizer" published in
Knotting Matters, A Fresh Approach to Knotting, and at least a couple
Budworth books --viz., The Complete Book of Knots (of course, it's
"complete"!) & The Ultimate Encyclopedia of Knots & Ropework--;
their respective copyrights are ca.1985, 1992, 1997, & 1999.

The question above about What did Budworth say? is a good one to ask,
for one can find in his own books Asher's Equalizer --published before Joe
discovered it, even, let alone presented it to him (or patented it!).  And no
doubt Geoffrey learned of Asher's discovery fairly quickly from Harry, as they
shared correspondence, and I think that GB was editing KM at the time when
HA's article on it appeared --circa 1985.  (So, this shows some of the weakness
of the U.S. Patent & Trademark Office.)

As for the strength claims --"200%" / "strongest knot"-- , these are prima facie
false, and seem to be based on a simplistic comparison of this doubling of
sling material on a span which could be done for other knots (such as Cow
or Girth hitches).  The knot part of this structure is akin to the not-so-strong
Reef / Square knot, though it is likely better for having all ends loaded.
But this attachment in nylon & Dyneema (rockclimbing) slings has been
tested and the strength was nowhere near 100% of sling strength --one
is urged to connect slings with carabiners, thus.  (I think that there might
be better knotted ways.)  (And, so, Rrok007, I cannot see this structure's
use for climbers : what do you conceive that they might do with it?)

--dl*
====
Title: Re: Irish hitch (new knot)
Post by: Joe McNicholas on October 16, 2010, 10:40:55 AM
Irish hitch - primarius vacuus knot (first rate free) knot.
Hooking a carabiner to connect will decrease the knot by 90%.
When tied in webbing the weak links are the rings. 
hook directly to the load thru bolts is the best way.
The webbing can hold 2000 Lbs.
The rings can only hold 200 Lbs.
Title: Re: Irish hitch (new knot)
Post by: Dan_Lehman on October 17, 2010, 05:29:35 AM
Hooking a carabiner to connect will decrease the knot by 90%.

 ???
Connecting tape slings with a 'biner is the recommended method,
and retains most of their strength.

--dl*
====
Title: Re: Irish hitch (new knot)
Post by: Sweeney on October 17, 2010, 08:32:16 AM
The webbing can hold 2000 Lbs.
The rings can only hold 200 Lbs.

This may be but a carabiner will hold around 24 Kn (well over 2000 lbs force) hence Dan's comment.

Barry
Title: Re: Irish hitch (new knot)
Post by: Joe McNicholas on October 17, 2010, 02:44:28 PM
The reference to rings is about the name changing to ring hitch doubled.  The knot doubles the material the knot only sees half the load. The other half goes through the knot. 2X the strength the carabiner 1X.  The Ashley equalizer should not be used for climbing.w  Joe
Title: Re: Irish hitch (new knot)
Post by: Bob Thrun on October 18, 2010, 01:12:54 AM
When tied in webbing the weak links are the rings. 
hook directly to the load thru bolts is the best way.
The webbing can hold 2000 Lbs.
The rings can only hold 200 Lbs.
Both webbing and rings come in a great variety of
sizes and strengths.
Title: Re: Irish hitch (new knot)
Post by: Dan_Lehman on October 18, 2010, 08:54:59 PM
In researching a recent New-Knot Claim (being the fictitious chair of
the fictitious NKC Assessment Committee sometimes garners some
bona fide new-knot claims!), I discovered that Ashley has largely
anticipated Asher's (nb : different names, different people) merging
of bight-ends for the Asher's Equalizer : #446 shows something
similar, though distinct.  Btw, Ashley's center image for this entry
is wrong (in being impossible, for one) ; the left images shows
the start that can result in the structure shown in the right one.

Prior to the manipulations that achieve the right-hand structure,
a structure similar to Asher's Equalizer momentarily obtains,
en passant, so to speak.  With just some rotation of the doubled
bights, one gets the OP's presented structure, aka Asher's Equalizer.
Now, is there an older new-knot claim to invalidate or qualify as derivative?
And should we try to keep making claims, or putting stakes on them?

--dl*
====
Title: Re: Irish hitch (new knot)
Post by: Rrok007 on October 18, 2010, 11:16:04 PM
Oooooo.... Steak... that sounds good.