International Guild of Knot Tyers Forum

General => Practical Knots => Topic started by: Midlar on October 10, 2010, 08:13:45 PM

Title: Fixed loop, around an object (e.g. ring), middle of the rope. Which knot?
Post by: Midlar on October 10, 2010, 08:13:45 PM
I've been infected with the knot virus, so I have been assimilating my list of favorite knots for situations I have come across as a camper, ATVer, etc..  I have a decent list now, but I have not found a knot specifically described for the use listed in the subject.  Here's an example of the situation:  My friend gets his ATV stuck in the mud and he needs me to pull him out with my ATV.  I am about 20 feet away from him and we have 50 feet of poly rope with us.  He ties a knot on his ATV, using one end of the rope, and he hands me the other end, but I have 30 feet of slack to deal with.  If I had easy access to the end of the rope, I would love to tie a double knotted bowline, an alpine butterfly, or a zeppelin loop.  If I had a hook, carabiner, or similar that I could attach to the frame of my ATV, then I would use an alpine butterfly in the middle of the rope, but I am looking for a solution using only the rope.  Tying a zeppelin loop on a bight seems to work, but I have not seen this knot (zeppelin on a bight) described anywhere so I am thinking there must be a better way.  Tying a bowline on a bight incorrectly (as you would a regular bowline) also seems to work, but this method is also not mentioned anywhere.  Ideas?
Title: Re: Fixed loop, around an object (e.g. ring), middle of the rope. Which knot?
Post by: knot4u on October 10, 2010, 09:28:23 PM
I read that a few times.  I don't understand what the problem is exactly.
Title: Re: Fixed loop, around an object (e.g. ring), middle of the rope. Which knot?
Post by: roo on October 10, 2010, 11:51:20 PM
Will this accomplish what you have in mind?:

http://notableknotindex.webs.com/midspan.html

Push a bight through the ring and execute a Midspan Sheet Bend, or one of the alternatives listed on that page.
Title: Re: Fixed loop, around an object (e.g. ring), middle of the rope. Which knot?
Post by: Midlar on October 11, 2010, 02:09:29 AM
I'm sorry if my example did not make sense.  Put another way, consider that I have two endless rails (the frame of the ATVs in my example) that are 20 ft. apart, and I have 50 ft of rope.  I want to tie a strong loop around each rail while leaving minimal slack between the rails.  I tried the midspan sheetbend as you described, roo, and it seemed to do the trick, and is super easy to tie, but aren't sheetbends considered to be on the weaker side?  Do you think a zeppelin loop on a bight or bowline on a bight tied as a regular bowline (so I can tie it around the rail) would be even stronger? 
Title: Re: Fixed loop, around an object (e.g. ring), middle of the rope. Which knot?
Post by: knot4u on October 11, 2010, 02:50:47 AM
2 Options to try...

1.  Axle Hitch
http://www.layhands.com/Knots/Knots_Miscellaneous.htm#AxleHitch
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axle_hitch

2.  Fixed loop around rail, with remaining rope coiled around standing end
Title: Re: Fixed loop, around an object (e.g. ring), middle of the rope. Which knot?
Post by: Midlar on October 11, 2010, 05:01:18 AM
Thanks for the replies, gentlemen.  To be clear, I have two endless rails (ATV frames or tow rings), 20 ft apart, with one end already tied by my buddy, and I have 30 ft of extra slack to deal with on my end.  I need a mid-line loop that can be tied around my endless rail (ATV frame or tow ring).  Roo's midspan sheetbend variation does work (using a single rope, bight around the rail, see middle diagram in his posted link), but I was hoping for something with a stronger foundation, or, as a bonus, part of the family of knots I already know (bowline, apline butterfly, zeppelin).  The axle hitch appears to require easy access to the end of the rope, and I have 30 ft of extra rope on my end to deal with.  I need to be able to tie the fixed loop mid-line, at roughly the 20 ft point, so an on-the-bight loop will probably be required.  Maybe the midspan sheetbend is strong enough.  I don't know.  As for option 2, you say to tie the fixed loop around the rail, but that's my problem - what mid-line knot can be tied around an endless rail.  All the fixed loop knots that I have read about require access to the end of the rope, or they can't be passed around an endless rail.  The layhands website you sent me (great site) states one of these two problems with all of their listed double loop knots (again, assuming I must use an on-the-bight loop).  I am looking for a knot that does not have either of these two limitations, but maybe I am thinking about this completely wrong, as I would imagine this problem comes up quite a bit (rope way too long to use both ends). 

Again, thanks for the help.

Edit:  I just found this (see section 4-24, three loop bowline):  http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/3-97-61/ch4.htm#fig4-24
It appears to be a bowline on a bight, tied as a regular bowline, with a safety.  Seems to be a good option in addition to the midspan sheetbend.  Thoughts?
Title: Re: Fixed loop, around an object (e.g. ring), middle of the rope. Which knot?
Post by: Transminator on October 11, 2010, 08:56:36 AM
Hi

As far as I am concerned, the KISS principle applies.
1. I would estimate the midspan sheet bend as strong enough. If in doubt, you can use the double sheet bend to form the midspan sheet bend.
2. Using the a doubled rope (bight) as an end of rope to tie any form of bowline (simple, water , yosemite, janus, double, double-knotted) or a zeppelin loop does also work. I personally would probably go for that option.

In addition: if you tie the midspan sheet bend, bowline or zeppelin on the bight, a small loop is sticking out. As an added safety for critical use, you could stick some kind of rod in it (large screw, stick etc.), which would prevent the loop from slipping back through, in the unlikely event the knot does start to slip.

Regards
Title: Re: Fixed loop, around an object (e.g. ring), middle of the rope. Which knot?
Post by: Sweeney on October 11, 2010, 11:06:04 AM
If I read this correctly you have twice as much rope as you need (and more) so why not put eg a simple cow hitch around your vehicle's tow ring and lead the end back to the stuck vehicle either doing the same and joining the ends with say a Zeppelin bend or fastening the end back to the stuck vehicles tow ring. This way you have double the rope and more security - or have I missed the point somewhere? Using a mid line loop presumably means you have 30 feet of slack rope to potentially get in the way anyway.

Barry
Title: Re: Fixed loop, around an object (e.g. ring), middle of the rope. Which knot?
Post by: roo on October 11, 2010, 02:59:15 PM
 I tried the midspan sheetbend as you described, roo, and it seemed to do the trick, and is super easy to tie, but aren't sheetbends considered to be on the weaker side?

Strength variation of knots in rope applications rarely becomes an issue, since you should not be anywhere near the breaking strength of your rope.  This is doubly true in your application where you'd want to err on using a rope large enough to make any stress riser (edges from rocks, etc) irrelevant so that you don't have to worry about the operator being hit by recoil from a broken rope.  Besides, the various orientations of the Midspan Sheet Bend may be as strong or stronger than some common loop knots, but that would be a subject of extensive testing in the rope type you wish to use.  I'd just assume that any knot is going to reduce line strength by about 50% from a perfect unbent state.

Secondly, recovery applications like this shouldn't see a lot of line motion or flogging, so security shouldn't be much of an issue either.
Title: Re: Fixed loop, around an object (e.g. ring), middle of the rope. Which knot?
Post by: Karl the deckie on October 11, 2010, 06:14:19 PM
What about a figure of eight loop?

or a figure of eight on the bight?
Title: Re: Fixed loop, around an object (e.g. ring), middle of the rope. Which knot?
Post by: knot4u on October 11, 2010, 06:20:24 PM
OK, the original poster wants to take up a lot of rope.  While knot tiers typically are searching for the elegant solution, that's NOT the best approach here.  The way to go is to tie a knot that consumes the rope in an inefficient manner.

Accordingly, I'm liking the Zeppelin Loop on the bight.  I previously thought this monstrosity is a knot that I would never want to tie.  But alas, the original poster has presented a situation where this ugly beast is desirable.

The Zeppelin Loop on the bight that comes to my mind is tied like a regular Zeppelin Loop, except it's on the bight and ends up being a double loop plus an extra loop at the working end (3 loops total).  That non-functioning loop at the working end can be coiled around the standing end to keep excess from sticking out too much.  This loop is horrendous and is a woefully inefficient usage of rope.  Thus, it's good for the particular problem at hand.  ;D
Title: Re: Fixed loop, around an object (e.g. ring), middle of the rope. Which knot?
Post by: Midlar on October 11, 2010, 06:31:46 PM
Transminator:  We are on the same page... I just wanted to hear that someone else with more experience had used fixed loops on a bight this way.  I was thinking of just using an overhand loop to protect the small loop that is sticking out, but a stick or similar would work too. 

Sweeny:  In this particular example I suppose I could have doubled the rope back to the other ATV, but I was looking for a more universal, autonomous option that I could use whenever I had too much rope.  In this situation, having the extra 30 ft of rope on the ground was not an issue.  I just wanted to learn a better method than the one we used, which was just a reef knot on a bight, tied over and over :). 

Roo:  You're right - we shouldn't be anywhere near 50% breaking strength, especially being exposed to snap-back on the ATV.  I'd rather the knot spill out than have it lodged in my back.  The midspan sheetbend is definitely the easiest option presented so far, and it fits the bill nicely.  It has been added to my list of knots. 

Karl:  Figure eights either require the end of the rope or, when tied on a bight, cannot be passed around an endless rail. I suppose a rewoven figure eight on a bight would get the job done, but that would be a mess to dress and untie I would imagine. 

Knot4u:  Yes, the zeppelin on a bight is not as pretty or efficient as the standard version, but I have a ton of extra rope to work with as you pointed out.  Tying it with the alternate method listed in the following link allows me to tie it on a bight relatively easily:  http://notableknotindex.webs.com/zeppelinloop.html

I think I have three good options now:
1.  Midspan sheetbend
2.  Zeppelin loop on a bight
3.  Bowline on a bight tied as a standard bowline

Thanks guys.
Title: Re: Fixed loop, around an object (e.g. ring), middle of the rope. Which knot?
Post by: knot4u on October 11, 2010, 06:37:19 PM
I think I have three good options now:
1.  Midspan sheetbend
2.  Zeppelin loop on a bight
3.  Bowline on a bight tied as a standard bowline

Thanks guys.

Those look good.  For the Bowline on a bight, I would add a Yosemite finish.  That would do three things:  take up more rope, take the working end outside of the loop (desirable here), and allow you to coil any remainder around the standing end.

EDIT:  The name of that knot is Triple Bowline or Three Loop Bowline.
Title: Re: Fixed loop, around an object (e.g. ring), middle of the rope. Which knot?
Post by: Midlar on October 12, 2010, 03:22:54 AM
Good idea... I will try that.  Thanks
Title: Re: Fixed loop, around an object (e.g. ring), middle of the rope. Which knot?
Post by: Dan_Lehman on October 12, 2010, 04:28:08 AM
For the Bowline on a bight, I would add a Yosemite finish.

HOW would you do that?! ???

Quote
That would do three things:  take up more rope, take the working end outside of the loop (desirable here), ...

Huh?  What is this "taking the tail outside of the loop" ?
(A Bowline on a Bight doesn't have any tail in any loop (eye).)

Somehow I think you're talking about a different knot than what
is commonly referred to by that name.

--dl*
====
Title: Re: Fixed loop, around an object (e.g. ring), middle of the rope. Which knot?
Post by: Midlar on October 12, 2010, 04:31:41 AM
see section 4-24, three loop bowline: http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/3-97-61/ch4.htm#fig4-24

It's bowline on a bight tied the same way a standard, single loop, bowline, which allows it to be tied around an endless rail.
Title: Re: Fixed loop, around an object (e.g. ring), middle of the rope. Which knot?
Post by: Dan_Lehman on October 12, 2010, 05:03:49 AM
...  I have not found a knot specifically described for the use listed in the subject.

But knots are like tools, and one should learn to adapt them to situations.
One cannot expect that there is some index for all rope probems that indicates
the "correct" knot(s) to use.

In the example that you give, there are conditions that should concern
you more than seeming to have an excess of rope.
(True knoTyers do not admit to that possibility!   ;D  )

I'd wonder about the stability of hitches to these rails, concerned that
if they slide from one point to another it could adversely affect handling
of the ATVs --that suggests some sort of friction hitch mechanism in
the solution.  Beyond that, as Roo alludes to, one must guard against
rope rupture and violent snap-back (!!).  Thus, I like Sweeney's advice
to make use of that extra rope, not see it as surplus --double it.

But, back a more idealized version of the rope problem you want us
to solve, I'd just tie off with some wraps and a Half-hitch or two, putting
in a Slip knot stopper to secure that, and tossing the rest of the rope onto
/into the hauling ATV (or whichever was at this tying point --it could go
the other way sometime).  Or tie a Clove Hitch with a bight of the long
end, put in a Slip knot stopper, and be done with it.

Or one could tie one's preferred (knot looking for a purpose!) eye knot
with a long enough eye to tie that off with a hitch (Anchor Bend, say,
in the eye/doubled rope).  Or one could just take the rope (bight) from
a Butterfly's tail (other SPart) around the rail and tie it off with a Reverse
Sheet bend (or regular) to the eye knot's eye.


--dl*
====

ps: Thanks for that URLink
 www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/3-97-61/ch4.htm#fig4-24

I hope that many here can pick out its errors.  Nice images for the Fig.8 Bend,
and rather uncommon loading for it, IMO.
Title: Re: Fixed loop, around an object (e.g. ring), middle of the rope. Which knot?
Post by: knot4u on October 12, 2010, 05:26:47 AM
For the Bowline on a bight, I would add a Yosemite finish.

HOW would you do that?! ???

Quote
That would do three things:  take up more rope, take the working end outside of the loop (desirable here), ...

Huh?  What is this "taking the tail outside of the loop" ?
(A Bowline on a Bight doesn't have any tail in any loop (eye).)

Somehow I think you're talking about a different knot than what
is commonly referred to by that name.

--dl*
====

It's the Triple Bowline (aka, Three Loop Bowline):
http://www.layhands.com/Knots/Knots_TripleLoops.htm#TripleBowline
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/3-97-61/ch4.htm#fig4-24

HOWEVER, that name may be improper here because we're NOT using 3 loops.  The third loop is the tail.  Take that tail (third loop) and make a Yosemite finish.  That knot inefficiently consumes a lot of rope, and that's GOOD for the problem here.  ;)
Title: Re: Fixed loop, around an object (e.g. ring), middle of the rope. Which knot?
Post by: DerekSmith on October 12, 2010, 11:30:07 AM
Take the rope from your friend, pass it twice around your ATV rail and hand it back to him so that he can take up the slack and tie it again to his ATV rail.

You now have the strongest connection known to man on your vehicle and it cannot jam or become hard to remove, while your friend has all the knots his end and starts to think he should perhaps look into this knot tying milarky.  You have also connected the vehicles with two strands of rope, thereby reducing the strain on each knot your friend ties.

Derek
Title: Re: Fixed loop, around an object (e.g. ring), middle of the rope. Which knot?
Post by: knot4u on October 12, 2010, 10:21:39 PM
Take the rope from your friend, pass it twice around your ATV rail and hand it back to him so that he can take up the slack and tie it again to his ATV rail.

You now have the strongest connection known to man on your vehicle and it cannot jam or become hard to remove, while your friend has all the knots his end and starts to think he should perhaps look into this knot tying milarky.  You have also connected the vehicles with two strands of rope, thereby reducing the strain on each knot your friend ties.

Derek

OK, except I trust myself to tie the knots.  So, I'd tell my friend to make round turns around his ATV rail and then to hand me the ends.  ;)
Title: Re: Fixed loop, around an object (e.g. ring), middle of the rope. Which knot?
Post by: Dan_Lehman on October 13, 2010, 05:40:48 AM
It's the Triple Bowline (aka, Three Loop Bowline):

HOWEVER, that name may be improper here because we're NOT using 3 loops.

 ???

Consider the name (and associated object) "Double Bowline",
which is long established (in Ashley & Day), and corresponds to
the Double Sheet Bend ; now, how does eye count figure here?
(It is a conflict of what to see as multiplied / repeated.)

--dl*
====
Title: Re: Fixed loop, around an object (e.g. ring), middle of the rope. Which knot?
Post by: knot4u on October 13, 2010, 05:47:39 AM
It's the Triple Bowline (aka, Three Loop Bowline):

HOWEVER, that name may be improper here because we're NOT using 3 loops.

 ???

Consider the name (and associated object) "Double Bowline",
which is long established (in Ashley & Day), and corresponds to
the Double Sheet Bend ; now, how does eye count figure here?
(It is a conflict of what to see as multiplied / repeated.)

--dl*
====

I didn't recall the name of the knot when I first mentioned it, but the original poster and I were communicating effectively anyway.

Now, back to the thread...
Title: Re: Fixed loop, around an object (e.g. ring), middle of the rope. Which knot?
Post by: Midlar on October 13, 2010, 03:46:49 PM
OK, except I trust myself to tie the knots.  So, I'd tell my friend to make round turns around his ATV rail and then to hand me the ends.  ;)

My thoughts exactly  :)
Title: Re: Fixed loop, around an object (e.g. ring), middle of the rope. Which knot?
Post by: DerekSmith on October 13, 2010, 07:55:02 PM
OK, except I trust myself to tie the knots.  So, I'd tell my friend to make round turns around his ATV rail and then to hand me the ends.  ;)

My thoughts exactly  :)


So now you have two ends and you can tie whatever knot(s) your heart desires...

Derek
Title: Re: Fixed loop, around an object (e.g. ring), middle of the rope. Which knot?
Post by: knot4u on October 13, 2010, 11:00:56 PM
OK, except I trust myself to tie the knots.  So, I'd tell my friend to make round turns around his ATV rail and then to hand me the ends.  ;)

My thoughts exactly  :)


So now you have two ends and you can tie whatever knot(s) your heart desires...

Derek

I'd probably go with a cow hitch, instead of round turns, on the friend's side.  However, if my friend doesn't know knots, he couldn't tie the cow.

Anyway, here's what I'll say, "You know what, Joe, just relax, and I'll take care of everything."  Two guys working on one simple rope connection is counterproductive and awkward.
Title: Re: Fixed loop, around an object (e.g. ring), middle of the rope. Which knot?
Post by: B.M. on October 20, 2010, 10:26:47 PM
Hi- new to the forum, first post, and beginner knotter here...

Would the mooring hitch and/or tumble hitch do the trick?  I've used neither in any practical application myself, but in my playing around I've thought the mooring hitch to be one that might be more prone to capsizing, but I don't know...

I'm asking rather than suggesting, for my own education as well...

BM
Title: Re: Fixed loop, around an object (e.g. ring), middle of the rope. Which knot?
Post by: knot4u on October 20, 2010, 11:18:08 PM
Hi- new to the forum, first post, and beginner knotter here...

Would the mooring hitch and/or tumble hitch do the trick?  I've used neither in any practical application myself, but in my playing around I've thought the mooring hitch to be one that might be more prone to capsizing, but I don't know...

I'm asking rather than suggesting, for my own education as well...

BM

Welcome.  I personally wouldn't go with a Mooring Hitch.  That's an adjustable friction hitch.  A fixed loop or bend would provide more reliable security and peace of mind.  Also, the Mooring Hitch does capsize more readily compared to some other friction hitches.

Regarding the Tumble hitch, that's an interesting thought actually.  The Tumble hitch is a quick release "exploding" knot.  It may be desirable to have such a quick release on one of the ATV's.  For example, if one ATV begins to slip off a cliff or whatever, then you'd want to release that sucker ASAP.  You'd have to keep in mind the Tumble hitch will come completely off the rail with one yank of the working end.  Again, such behavior may be desirable depending on the situation.
Title: Re: Fixed loop, around an object (e.g. ring), middle of the rope. Which knot?
Post by: Bob Thrun on October 22, 2010, 03:01:04 AM
I'm sorry if my example did not make sense.  Put another way, consider that I have two endless rails (the frame of the ATVs in my example) that are 20 ft. apart, and I have 50 ft of rope.   

Going back to the original problem, I would use the three loop bowline (aka bowline WITH the bight) that was already mentioned or just tie some half hitches with the bight.  The scenario calls for something that can be done quickly.  If strength is a consideration, I would double the entire rope.
Title: Re: Fixed loop, around an object (e.g. ring), middle of the rope. Which knot?
Post by: Dan_Lehman on October 22, 2010, 06:53:30 AM

Would the mooring hitch and/or tumble hitch do the trick?

One should ask why you would think of those?
For they are quick-release knots, and the problem doesn't
need that.  The stability of the former should be fairly good
in much cordage, provided one sets it well.

I personally wouldn't go with a Mooring Hitch.  That's an adjustable friction hitch.  A fixed loop or bend would provide more reliable security and peace of mind.  Also, the Mooring Hitch does capsize more readily compared to some other friction hitches.

???  This use of "friction hitch" is not in keeping with common
parlance, where, e.g., the Prusik or Bachmann or Klemheist hitches
are friction hitches --holding (so far as they to) by pure friction
upon the rope, and not intertwining of parts.  Also, the adjustability
of the Mooring Hitch is more a different thing, too.

Quote
The Tumble hitch is a quick release "exploding" knot.  It may be desirable to have such a quick release on one of the ATV's.  For example, if one ATV begins to slip off a cliff or whatever, then you'd want to release that sucker ASAP.  You'd have to keep in mind the Tumble hitch will come completely off the rail with one yank of the working end.  Again, such behavior may be desirable depending on the situation.

This "slip-free" (my term) hitch doesn't come free all so easily
when under load --indeed, it might be quite hard to release.

Quote
Going back to the original problem, I would use the three loop bowline (aka bowline WITH the bight) ...

Hmmm, I think you'd actually use the latter, not the former
--by Ashley's naming, that is just 2 eyes : the single bowline's
and the bight end.  Why involve the (unloaded) tail in the
structure?  (I.e., bring the bight around the object and engage
the SPart to form the Bowline with a bight, and not hold the
long tail beside the SPart to be engaged with it.)  Except in some
regard of neatness in having the free tail depart from the knot
rather than from being lazily around the object.

--dl*
====
Title: Re: Fixed loop, around an object (e.g. ring), middle of the rope. Which knot?
Post by: knot4u on October 22, 2010, 08:12:09 PM
I personally wouldn't go with a Mooring Hitch.  That's an adjustable friction hitch.  A fixed loop or bend would provide more reliable security and peace of mind.  Also, the Mooring Hitch does capsize more readily compared to some other friction hitches.

???  This use of "friction hitch" is not in keeping with common
parlance, where, e.g., the Prusik or Bachmann or Klemheist hitches
are friction hitches --holding (so far as they to) by pure friction
upon the rope, and not intertwining of parts.  Also, the adjustability
of the Mooring Hitch is more a different thing, too.

???  I don't find the Mooring Hitch to be quick release at all.  Every time I use it, it capsizes into a dressing that nearly jams.  It takes muscle and creativity to get it apart.  In fact, I'm still annoyed that the Mooring Hitch was described as quick release when I used it my first time.  Perhaps common parlance is "quick release", but that's definitely a misnomer that's being perpetuated for the sake of tradition I guess.  For my purposes, the Mooring Hitch is better described as an adjustable friction hitch.  I would use "adjustable grip hitch" to describe the Mooring Hitch, but that terminology is already taken by another knot.

This "slip-free" (my term) hitch doesn't come free all so easily
when under load --indeed, it might be quite hard to release.

???  In my experience, the Tumble Hitch has always come loose with a firm yank of the working end.  For the application at hand, the user definitely needs to be fully aware of this feature.  For the application at hand (towing an ATV), the user must account for the rope going in and out of load as the ATV is being towed.
Title: Re: Fixed loop, around an object (e.g. ring), middle of the rope. Which knot?
Post by: B.M. on November 15, 2010, 05:42:13 PM

Would the mooring hitch and/or tumble hitch do the trick?

One should ask why you would think of those?

At least in the case of the tumble hitch, you don't need access to the ends of the line to tie it, which is exactly the problem the OP is asking about.  And the mooring hitch, would need the end to pass around his endless loop to which he's tying off (the grab handle on the rear of the atv, I'd imagine) only once, and the end is not needed to be fed through the knot to tie it.  Feeding 20' or so of excess rope back and forth is what we are trying to avoid here.

I have been thinking about this problem a bit here and there, and I wonder, can you tie the round turn and two half hitches on a bight in this situation?  I've only done that w/ para-cord in a non-critical situation, so I don't know how well that will translate to a larger diameter rope wrapped around a relatively small diameter bar...

Also, this comes to mind- you could first tie a fixed loop in the middle of the line (Alpine Butterfly, for example) and then if you have a wrench, some kind of rod, or a sturdy branch you could do this kind of cow hitch variation- http://www.layhands.com/Knots/LarksHeadToggle.jpg

BM
Title: Re: Fixed loop, around an object (e.g. ring), middle of the rope. Which knot?
Post by: knot4u on November 15, 2010, 06:22:36 PM
BM, please describe your entire system from start to finish.  I don't follow you.  I don't see how your new ideas are much different than what has already been offered in the thread.  Did you read the entire thread?

I find DerekSmith's solution (or a variation thereof) to be easily the best offered here.  It is so simple that it makes me wonder why nobody mentioned it sooner.
http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=2031.msg14435#msg14435
Note that variations of that solution have been discussed above.
Title: Re: Fixed loop, around an object (e.g. ring), middle of the rope. Which knot?
Post by: roo on November 15, 2010, 06:51:32 PM

I find DerekSmith's solution (or a variation thereof) to be easily the best offered here.  It is so simple that it makes me wonder why nobody mentioned it sooner.

It was not mentioned sooner because it directly violates the original terms of the problem (approx. middle of rope, no convenient end-access).
Title: Re: Fixed loop, around an object (e.g. ring), middle of the rope. Which knot?
Post by: knot4u on November 15, 2010, 07:26:19 PM

I find DerekSmith's solution (or a variation thereof) to be easily the best offered here.  It is so simple that it makes me wonder why nobody mentioned it sooner.

It was not mentioned sooner because it directly violates the original terms of the problem (approx. middle of rope, no convenient end-access).

Well, sometimes we have to provide some thinking for the original poster.  ;)  Note that in the original post he starts off with having access to the ends, and then he later says he doesn't have access.  So, basically, there was somehow no end access because of how the original poster was managing the rope.  The original poster conceded that a variation of DerekSmith's solution is viable.
http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=2031.msg14446#msg14446
Title: Re: Fixed loop, around an object (e.g. ring), middle of the rope. Which knot?
Post by: B.M. on November 15, 2010, 08:33:27 PM
BM, please describe your entire system from start to finish.  I don't follow you.  I don't see how your new ideas are much different than what has already been offered in the thread.  Did you read the entire thread?

I find DerekSmith's solution (or a variation thereof) to be easily the best offered here.  It is so simple that it makes me wonder why nobody mentioned it sooner.
http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=2031.msg14435#msg14435
Note that variations of that solution have been discussed above.

And his solution requires that your rope be just a bit longer than 2x the distance between the atvs.  What if your atvs are 25' apart, and you have 49' or rope, or 200', you find yourself back in the same situation.  How to tie a knot in the middle of a line w/o threading the ending of the line back and forth over and over again...

As far as the round turn w/ two half hitches on a bight- here's some crappy cell phone photos (sorry, I only have a crappy old dumb-phone camera on hand right now)-
And like I said, I only have paracord on hand, and an office door handle.  I don't know how of if it would work w/ larger line around a small-ish diameter bar.

BM
Title: Re: Fixed loop, around an object (e.g. ring), middle of the rope. Which knot?
Post by: knot4u on November 16, 2010, 12:44:11 AM
BM, please describe your entire system from start to finish.  I don't follow you.  I don't see how your new ideas are much different than what has already been offered in the thread.  Did you read the entire thread?

I find DerekSmith's solution (or a variation thereof) to be easily the best offered here.  It is so simple that it makes me wonder why nobody mentioned it sooner.
http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=2031.msg14435#msg14435
Note that variations of that solution have been discussed above.

And his solution requires that your rope be just a bit longer than 2x the distance between the atvs.  What if your atvs are 25' apart, and you have 49' or rope, or 200', you find yourself back in the same situation.  How to tie a knot in the middle of a line w/o threading the ending of the line back and forth over and over again...

If the line is over 2x the distance, then I'd use a variation of DerrickSmith's solution.  The original poster has acknowledged that DerrickSmith's solution is acceptable.  I'd coil the extra rope and attach it to the rope that's there.  There would not need to be multiple passes across the rails.  Extra rope is a common problem.  I don't think there's a need to modify the desired knots just because there's extra rope.

If the rope is less than 2x the distance, then your pics are a possible solution if you somehow have NO access to the ends.  However, having no access to the ends is more of an academic exercise because the original poster acknowledged that DerrickSmith's solution (which requires end access) would work.  Note also that the original poster has access to the ends to start, and then somewhere along the way he doesn't have access (so he says).  I see this problem as more of a rope management issue, and access to the ends is available if the solution calls for it.