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General => Practical Knots => Topic started by: xarax on August 05, 2010, 02:41:51 PM

Title: Two Double Zeppelin bends as fishing knots
Post by: xarax on August 05, 2010, 02:41:51 PM
Two Double Zeppelin bends as fishing knots
(and a second/simpler version of the second, B, bend)
Title: Re: Two Double Zeppelin bends as fishing knots
Post by: roo on August 05, 2010, 02:55:56 PM
I have not been able to find any measurable differences between them.
Since you're talking angling, where strength is of more concern, the real question is how they compare to common angling knots.  I expect common angling knots to do better.
Title: Re: Two Double Zeppelin bends as fishing knots
Post by: knot4u on August 05, 2010, 05:53:37 PM
I tested the Albright Special several times against the regular Zeppelin Bend by using 10-pound test monofilament, and the Zeppelin Bend won.

http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1874.msg13148#msg13148

It really doesn't matter what other tests show because I'll be the one tying the knots out there on the boat.  (Regardless, I have not yet seen a test that compares the Albright Special to the Zeppelin Bend.)  I was so impressed by the regular Zeppelin Bend in fishing line that I haven't had the motivation to test the Double Zeppelin.  I'll test it when I get around to it.

Fishing knot tying is an area of knots in which people just tie what they're told.  I have not seen much testing on fishing lines.  Even when I started that thread above, repliers are talking more about theory, and less about what they've actually tested.  Theory is great for beginners who just need a knot that works.  I'm a bit beyond that now and pay attention to posts here that talk about actual testing.  Keep testing those fishing lines and share your results.  :)
Title: Re: Two Double Zeppelin bends as fishing knots
Post by: knot4u on August 05, 2010, 06:12:02 PM
 I was so impressed by the regular Zeppelin Bend in fishing line that I haven't had the motivation to test the Double Zeppelin.  I'll test it when I get around to it.

Thank you knot4u. I would be glad if you will be able to discover any differences between those two variations of the Double Zeppelin and report them to us. I dont have the required equipment, and I am a not a good experimentalist, I guess.

The cool thing about 10-pound test monofilament is that no special equipment is needed.  My technique is to tie the two knots I'm testing in the same line.  I pull the line until one knot breaks.  (If you can't break 10-pound test monofilament, then you don't need to be out there fishing anyway.)  I'll repeat that test several times.
Title: Re: Two Double Zeppelin bends as fishing knots
Post by: Dan_Lehman on August 05, 2010, 06:46:46 PM
Xarax, showing a supposed "front" & "back" view is kind funny
for this particular knot (needless, i.e.)!

I'm a little surprised at your no-difference results; in any case,
it is only the first (double collar) version I'd use.  You might try
an in-between version, where the main loop goes not 180deg
or your 540 but 360 degrees, to collar the opposite line.

Quote
I tested the Albright Special several times against the regular Zeppelin Bend by using 10-pound test monofilament, and the Zeppelin Bend won.

And I found otherwise.  But as the A.S. is intended for mis-matched lines,
why not test the venerable Blood knot, with, oh, 4 wraps?  -- or the Grapevine
(or Dble. G.) ?  These would be the more streamlined, equal-lines-joiners
that anglers would use.

--dl*
====
Title: Re: Two Double Zeppelin bends as fishing knots
Post by: roo on August 05, 2010, 06:50:00 PM
why not test the venerable Blood knot, with, oh, 4 wraps?  -- or the Grapevine
I second this.  You might also try the Uni-Knot for two lines.
(http://www.everglades-fishing.com/everglades-fishing/images/knot1.jpg)
Title: Re: Two Double Zeppelin bends as fishing knots
Post by: knot4u on August 05, 2010, 06:54:27 PM
And I found otherwise.  But as the A.S. is intended for mis-matched lines,
why not test the venerable Blood knot, with, oh, 4 wraps?  -- or the Grapevine
(or Dble. G.) ?  These would be the more streamlined, equal-lines-joiners
that anglers would use.

--dl*
====

I have tested the Double Uni Knot against the Zeppelin Bend by using 10-pound test monofilament, and the Zeppelin Bend won.  However, that was a single test, and so I did not publish my results here.  Nobody was more disappointed than me because the Double Uni Knot, when tied correctly, is a pretty looking knot.

One thing to remember is that the Zeppelin Bend dresses perfect every single time it's tied in fishing line.  On the other hand, sometimes these other fishing knots having multiple turns are not always dressed perfectly.  If not dressed perfectly, you're basically talking about a different knot than whatever it is you dressed.

That's good for you that you can make the Albright Special stronger than the Zeppelin Bend.  Again, you won't be tying my fishing knots for me.  So, I'll go with the knots that do well in my testing.
Title: Re: Two Double Zeppelin bends as fishing knots
Post by: roo on August 05, 2010, 06:57:54 PM
One thing to remember is that the Zeppelin Bend ties perfect every single time it's tied in fishing line. 
Perhaps you already do this, but it's good to wet your typical angling knot before tightening to help things slide together neatly.
Title: Re: Two Double Zeppelin bends as fishing knots
Post by: knot4u on August 05, 2010, 07:04:41 PM
One thing to remember is that the Zeppelin Bend ties perfect every single time it's tied in fishing line.
Perhaps you already do this, but it's good to wet your typical angling knot before tightening to help things slide together neatly.

Yes, and these conventional angling knots dress perfectly about 50% of the time.  When I say perfectly, I mean NO visible imperfection whatsoever can be seen when the knot is inspected with a magnifying glass.  That 50% is while I'm sitting here in my cozy home, not while I'm out there on a cold, rocking boat.  So, 50% is the best case scenario.  By the way, when I test, I test only a knot that I think is a perfectly dressed knot.  The Zeppelin Bend dresses perfectly in fishing line 100% of the time.

If anybody here does anymore testing, please send me a message so that I know to come back to this thread.
Title: Re: Two Double Zeppelin bends as fishing knots
Post by: knot4u on August 05, 2010, 09:22:22 PM
I pull the line until one knot breaks.  

That is ok for relative strength, but how do we test relative slippage ? If none of the knots slips before it breaks, we can not know in which knot, and where in this knot, the friction forces work more effectively... I used a dental floss filament, I oiled the fishing line, but those two Double Zeppelins do not slip !

I tested the Zeppelin Bend and the Double Zeppelin Bend in 10-pound test and 30-pound test monofilament.  I tested these knots by themselves for slippage.  Neither of these knots slipped at all.  They broke before they slipped.  I have not tested yet which is the stronger of the two.

One thing that the Zeppelin Bend may lack is shock absorption.  Shock absorption is a feature that some fisherman desire.  Personally, I don't think my angling skills are refined to point that shock absorption is a factor.  Note here that I'm talking about theory.  The Zeppelin Bend very well may have some shock absorption qualities in real fishing line.

I really like the Zeppelin Bend because I can see with my naked eye if the knot is dressed perfectly.  So far, 100% of the time the Zeppelin Bend has dressed perfectly for me.  The Zeppelin Bend (or Double Zeppelin Bend) will be my go-to knot when I need to join fishing lines.  Again, I yet need to perform a strength test on the Double ZB.  By the way, in fishing line, the Zeppelin Bend jams up tightly, which is a desirable feature for fishing knots.

I can understand that folks may be skeptical about what I'm saying here.  Consider this though: The Palomar is perhaps the strongest knot one can use to attach a line to a hook.  Meanwhile, the Palomar's structure is based on a simple overhand and is unlike other angling knots that have multiple turns around the standing end.  The Zeppelin Bend is also based on simple overhand knots.  Like the Palomar, the Zeppelin Bend is relatively easy to dress perfectly in fishing line.  We already know the Palomar is a strong knot.  I'm comfortable with saying the Zeppelin Bend is up there in strength as well.
Title: Re: Two Double Zeppelin bends as fishing knots
Post by: knot4u on August 05, 2010, 10:02:35 PM
And I found otherwise.

OK, thank you for suddenly sharing your conclusion here.  In that other thread, there's a lot of verbiage and no clear conclusion as to what knot you thought was stronger.  Also, I could not quite understand the description of your test.

http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1874.msg13284#msg13284
Title: Re: Two Double Zeppelin bends as fishing knots
Post by: knot4u on August 06, 2010, 01:52:17 AM
Quick observation, Double Zeppelin Bend "B" in your original post jammed in some boot laces I have.  I had to throw away the laces, thanks.  :-\
The regular Zeppelin Bend and Double Zeppelin Bend "A" did NOT jam in the same laces.
So, in theory, Zeppelin Bend "B" should be BETTER than the other Zeppelin Bends for fishing line.  That is if you can dress it correctly in fishing line.
Unfortunately, I have yet to dress Zeppelin Bend "B" correctly in fishing line.  I tried unsuccessfully 4 times so far.
Title: Re: Two Double Zeppelin bends as fishing knots
Post by: Dan_Lehman on August 06, 2010, 07:52:43 AM
And I found otherwise.

OK, thank you for suddenly sharing your conclusion here.  In that other thread, there's a lot of verbiage and no clear conclusion as to what knot you thought was stronger.  Also, I could not quite understand the description of your test.

http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1874.msg13284#msg13284

No "verbiage" (did you mean "wording"?), but it wasn't a Tweet,
it's discussion.  This often deserves more than two lines.

But early in that post, before more than a couple of two-lines,
I asked you where your Albright knot broke -- it has asymmetric
halves, after all:  one makes a U, the other hitches to this.
Did you notice this?  (It should be pretty obvious, with what
is left of the breakage.)

My conclusion was there, but rather well delayed; thanks, I've
amended the post to put a clear statement early.   (You say
you didn't understand ... ; I don't see any question re that,
though -- did you not care to understand?)

--dl*
===
Title: Re: Two Double Zeppelin bends as fishing knots
Post by: Dan_Lehman on August 06, 2010, 08:02:14 AM
why not test the venerable Blood knot, with, oh, 4 wraps?  -- or the Grapevine
I second this.  You might also try the Uni-Knot for two lines.
(http://www.everglades-fishing.com/everglades-fishing/images/knot1.jpg)

THIS is the typical image given for the "Double Uni" (noting that "double"
here is used in a confounding way, vis-a-vis "Double sheet bend",
"Double Bowline", "Double Overhand");
note that it does NOT show the tied knot at all, clearly.  There are
SOME images presented that show a transformation from the clearly
visible form shown here to a Strangle-knot form of the multi-Overhand,
but I imagine that this form often doesn't obtain (I have had trouble
coaxing it into existence, knowing what I wanted!) !?
I find it hard to believe that the form as show here,
which could be likened to a multiple Anchor bend tied
in reverse, can be very strong at all -- and certainly not
"grip" the rope (in the (single) Uni-knot version) sufficient
to effect a semi-fixed eye!

But damn if the authors ever come out and say in plain
language "this knot should look --when fully dressed & set--
just like the Nail Knot" (another multiple Overhand).  And yet
that seems to be what is intended (or is intended by those
who know ... ).

--dl*
====
Title: Re: Two Double Zeppelin bends as fishing knots
Post by: knot4u on August 06, 2010, 09:02:41 PM
Somehow, I got "B" to dress correctly, but I'm not confident I can do it out on the boat.  Maybe it just takes practice.  "B" looks like a heck of a bend for fishing line.  Again, "B" jammed some boot laces that I used.  That is a good thing for fishing line and inspires confidence.

I haven't tested this knot yet for relative strength, but I did break it using 30-lb test monofilament.  It broke right at the knot at one of the standing ends.  It required a good hard yank, and I'm 6'2, 200 lbs, above average strength.  The three other ends stayed in tact, even after I yanked on them after the breakage.  That makes me believe that "B" undergoes zero slippage.
Title: Re: Two Double Zeppelin bends as fishing knots
Post by: Dan_Lehman on August 07, 2010, 03:20:16 PM
Consider this though: The Palomar is perhaps the strongest knot one can use to attach a line to a hook.  Meanwhile, the Palomar's structure is based on a simple overhand and is unlike other angling knots that have multiple turns around the standing end.

We should look more closely than this.  The Palomar is presented
in three orientations:  with the bight-end left around the shank of
the hook; with it moved out to surround the knot (Half-hitch);
and with it brought fully up around the SPart & tail ("tag end"),
which makes it a Pile-hitch noose hitch.  (Both Sosin & Kreh
and Wilson say "make sure the loop [bight-end] rides up over
the hook eye and doesn't bind around the shank".)
Are these three knots equally strong?

In HMPE ("gel-spun") lines, apparently, the Palomar and
with 2 extra wraps around the eye the Triple Palomar
are not, according to Geoff Wilson's testing (e.g., 75% for
the stronger, "Triple", where line is breaking at 130% of
its rating).  (The Uni, given a triple-turn guard, too, is a
bit stronger; Wilson shows it deliberately tied in the Strangle
orientation (using an aid to pass the end up through wraps).
(Well, hmmm, I see that Wilson too is coy about equating
the knots -- the Uni still left much to the imagination
and vagaries of setting, alas.))

In fact, with the bight-end brought back past the hook's
eye --either around the knot or father-- , one DOES have
some bit of wrapping, though hardly the extent in e.g.
a clinch knot.  Consider what is more important:  that
the knot is tightened to a great extent by pulling on both
ends --SPart & tail-- , which makes the bight-end wrap & bind
more surely than would the knot if tied in rope and left
to load-tightening.

The Overhand is turned into a Half-hitch, with I think
less pressure of a choker sort around the SPart than
is the case for Rosendahl's bend.

--dl*
====
Title: Re: Two Double Zeppelin bends as fishing knots
Post by: xarax on July 12, 2014, 05:04:55 PM
  Starting from the common, single Zeppelin bend, if we duplicate the collars, we get the "A" variations. If we duplicate the nipping loops, we get the "B" variations. So, we can imagine "AB" variations, where everything is duplicated - the material and the time required to tie and untie the bend included, unfortunately (*). Another way to describe the B variations, is this : Starting from the common, single Zeppelin loop, where the Standing Parts make 180 degrees U-turns around the pair of the Tail Ends, if we retuck the Standing Ends through the opposite collars once, we get the 360 degrees variation ( the B2 ). If we retuck them once more ( = twice ), we get the 540 degrees variation ( the B1).
   See also : http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4777.msg31022#msg31022

(*) Each one of the two collars can encircle the Standing End of the one or of the other link - the situation is similar with the double-collar Hunter s bends, shown at :   
http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1919.msg16661#msg16661
http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1919.msg16662#msg16662
Title: Re: Two Double Zeppelin bends as fishing knots
Post by: TMCD on August 05, 2014, 12:08:32 AM
As a true blue fisherman that has tested many of these leader knots and terminal knots, Iet me suggest several that are my favorites.

As for a terminal knot, line to hook for example, the Snell Knot is awesome. It's not only super strong but it gives you an in plane pull when setting the hook because of it's relationship being tied not to the eye of the hook but to the hook's shank.

For leader knots, I like the Bristol Knot and the Yucatan Knot. You must tie either a triple over hand surgeons loop, perfection loop, bimini twist or my favorite, the Spider hitch in the main line and then join your leader to your chosen loop.

I can attest to how addictive tying fishing knots really is because I've been tying and testing for 18 months now.
Title: Re: Two Double Zeppelin bends as fishing knots
Post by: xarax on August 05, 2014, 02:46:17 PM
Iet me suggest several that are my favorites.

  Thank you. We would be grateful if you could examine which of those fishing knots could possibly be "simplified" ( that is, tied with fewer wraps ), and serve as bends, loops or hitches that can be tied on "ordinary" rope ( so, not only on fishing line ). Just tie the fishing knots you know on a chord or rope, with the minimum number of turns they can be tied, and see if they retain their knotting properties, and can serve as ordinary knots.