International Guild of Knot Tyers Forum

General => Practical Knots => Topic started by: xarax on July 17, 2010, 03:04:16 PM

Title: The Pretzel bowline(s)
Post by: xarax on July 17, 2010, 03:04:16 PM
The Pretzel bowline(s)
 
 
Title: Re: The Pretzel bowline(s)
Post by: Dan_Lehman on July 17, 2010, 06:39:46 PM
   It s official ! :) The pretzel looking bowline(s) are now named The Pretzel Bowline(s).

Bulloney:  most if not all of these late-blooming so-called "bowlines"
are lacking the quintessential element of a bowline -- viz., the central
nipping loop, one end being the SPart, the other an eye leg.
The world doesn't need such lame naming that every eyeknot that
someone dreams up garners "bowline" in its moniker as some sort
of claim to legitimacy.

The Bowline (Ashley's #1010) is a marvel of material efficiency
-- the simple union of a loop & bight.  To seek from such limited
structure an essence is like splitting hairs, but to my mind the
task can be done, and what is essential is the nipping loop.  (The
bight-wise finish is something that can be employed broadly, but
is not so important a structural feature as the nipping loop.)

As for the essence of a pretzel, that has to my mind a struggle between
the Overhand & Fig.8 forms, where the latter is cast appropriately.
(The sequence of knots beginning {Overhand, Fig.8, Fig.9, Fig.10 ...}
can be put into this ends-twist-in-the-center form.)

For the first-presented knot here, note that I've named as "Mirrored Bowlines"
the like knot where (1) the central, nipping Cow hitch has ends pulling away
from, rather than crossing, each other, and (2) the tail makes a similar (hence
"Mirrored") collaring of the Cow Hitch end feeding the eye.
This knot is envisioned as good for rockclimbing tie-in, able to withstand
repeated falls w/o tightening, yet quite resistant to loosening (from an
already amply open/loose setting).

The knot you show here takes those Cow Hitch ends in the opposite
directions, with a particular crossing -- having the SPart pass under
(i.e., closer to knot body, as shown here) is much preferable.

--dl*
====
Title: Re: The Pretzel bowline(s)
Post by: knot4u on July 17, 2010, 06:43:33 PM
I really don't care what the name is.  I prefer the Short Pretzel Bowline.  Even though the working end finishes on the outside of the loop, I think the Short Pretzel Bowline is closer to Bowline theory.  I have yet to try the Wavy Pretzel Bowline.  Now, I just have to try out these knots on real applications.  Generally, that's a good job and keeping venturing off into the unknown.   :)

EDIT:  I take back what I said above about the Long Pretzel Bowline vs. Short Pretzel Bowline.  After re-examining the pics, I noticed that you're tying the initial fake overhand differently for the different knots.  I tied the Long Pretzel Bowline wrongly initially.
Title: Re: The Pretzel bowline(s)
Post by: knot4u on July 18, 2010, 12:25:46 AM
I take back what I said above about the Long Pretzel Bowline vs. Short Pretzel Bowline.  After re-examining the pics, I noticed that you're tying the initial fake overhand differently for the different knots.  I tied the Long Pretzel Bowline wrongly initially.

These knots are in the non-jamming camp.
Title: Re: The Pretzel bowline(s)
Post by: knot4u on July 18, 2010, 01:42:02 AM
I noticed that you're tying the initial fake overhand differently for the different knots.  I tied the Long Pretzel Bowline wrongly initially.

   Yes, and I was driven to the Long Pretzel Bowline , i.e. to a more bowline-like knotform of what was conceived initially as Loop 1, after your suggestions, remember?  :)
http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1931.msg13372#msg13372

OK cool... I'll note that the Short Pretzel Bowline was what I was tying all along from that other thread.  The Short Pretzel Bowline is also "more Bowline-like", but not as apparent initially because the working end finishes outside the loop.  However, I don't see the internal forces as being analogous to a modified Bowline with the working end wrapped the other way around the tree.  Rather, I see the Short Pretzel Bowline as bing comparable to a standard Bowline.

Never mind what I'm saying here if it's not making sense.  I'm just thinking sort of out loud.
Title: Re: The Pretzel bowline(s)
Post by: Dan_Lehman on July 18, 2010, 07:32:08 AM
  Bulloney:  
   most if not all of these late-blooming so-called "bowlines"
are lacking the quintessential element of a bowline -- viz., the central
nipping loop, one end being the SPart, the other an eye leg.
The world doesn't need such lame naming that every eyeknot that
someone dreams up garners "bowline" in its moniker as some sort
of claim to legitimacy.

   Nonsense!
   First of all, please, do not tell the world what it needs...( I paraphrase a well known advice to Einstein, so this is really a honour to you... :))
   The quintessential element of bowline is very well known to me, as to millions of sailors that use it. It is a slip knot you form/tie on the standing part/ first leg, and through which you pass the second leg two times, one before forming the collar and one afterwards. You dream possessing the one and only definition of the bowline, as if you have read it on some wall up there, but there are also those  who actually use the bowline every day, the sailors, and they know better. I don't mind if you have such a limited view on the definition of the word, but please allow others to have a broader one. Is our subject reduced to quelling about words, I wonder...That would be a pity, indeed.

I'm unrepentant: the nipping is the essence, not some imagined
slip-knot-magic of tying, which you'll be hard-pressed to find in
any "millions" of sailors out there.  (I'm also not seeing this in
your presentations here; I can well enough imagine the contortion
to effect this for the Long, but not the Short Pretzel.  But I can't
imagine the passing the end through the Slip-Knot bight twice
-- once will suffice.)  And you elsewhere refer to the quick-tie
method different than that using a Slip-knot, which method
might be the more prevalent one.  (In tying the knot in hawswers,
neither method is going to be used.)

There are a great many eyeknots that can be built from a nipping
loop, and its this progeny I rise in defence of for the name!

Quote
The "mirrored bowline" is a beautiful and secure form of bowline, and even if it is a little too bulky for my taste, its nice overall symmetry makes it more than acceptable. I have never thought of criticising this knot for its name, as you do for the knots I have presented - and bear in mind that for many people this "mirror bowline" does not look like "the" holy bowline at all
???
The Mirrored Bowline indeed looks just like a . . .
m i r r or e d   b o w l i n e -- the mirror perpendicular to the axis
of tension, at the start of the eye.   YOUR image shows this, and only
by the reverse side does one see the crossing that distinguishes it (Long).
The nipping loop characteristic of the Bowline is obvious, and repeated.

Mine's a limited definition to have some point to having the concept,
rather than the anything-goes freedom that gets one nowhere fast.
"Ah, look, I've got a Bow-line -- because I say so!"
Well, whoopeedoo 4 U.

I appreciate the idea of like tying, but I don't see that here in these
"pretzels"; and, in any case, I prefer a criterion that is present in the
tied knot, not something temporal and vanished after the tying.

--dl*
====

ps: 
Quote
I have tested them a lot, by jumping with my full weight on a rope hang from two high points, for thousands of times, literally !

I am beyond impressed.  Maybe the TdF steroids checkers can sample your tea?

 :D
Title: Re: The Pretzel bowline(s)
Post by: knot4u on July 18, 2010, 07:29:43 PM
I see the Short Pretzel Bowline as being comparable to a standard Bowline.

   No, it is not, because if you look  at a tight Simple Pretzel bowline knot, you will notice that the tail is nipped by two nipping loop rims, in two areas, after it has turned around the standing end, rather than just one, as in the standard bowline.  So the Pretzel Bowline is a little more secure than the standard bowline, but probably a little less secure than the Long Pretzel Bowline, although I have not been able to verify those claims experimentally.

I was referring specifically to the direction that the working end goes around the standing end.  In the Short Pretzel Bowline, the working end finishes on the outside of the loop.  But if you examine the knot, that's the "correct" way that's closer to being Bowline-like.  If you took the Short Pretzel Bowline concept, and instead took the working end the other way around the standing end, then you'd end up with a knot that's less Bowline-like even though the working end finishes inside the loop.

I'll provide a pic of what I mean about the "other way" for the Short Pretzel Bowline if I get motivated/bored.  Pics take a lot of time for me, and I don't have time right now.