International Guild of Knot Tyers Forum

General => Practical Knots => Topic started by: xarax on July 09, 2010, 08:09:27 PM

Title: Interlocking knots
Post by: xarax on July 09, 2010, 08:09:27 PM
   The 88 bend. Also shown at (1). It starts from two interlocked "8" shaped slip knots. An un-tucked, simplified 88 bend, the "S88" (: simple 88) bend, is shown at (2).
   The fact that the two identical links, that are interlocked in the 88 bend, are slip knots, makes this bend also suitable for a bowline-like end-of-line loop. As such a loop, it could be named "4 collars/nipping loops" bowline, or "2 collars+2 nipping loops" bowline, or "22 bowline".

1) http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1919.msg16218#msg16218
2) http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1935.0

P.S. 2011-10-30 : This bend is identical with the A 24 bend, named "Tweedledee bend", by Roger E. Miles : Symmetric bends. (How to Join Two Lengths of Cord), 1995.(p. 86, p.106)
Title: Re: Interlocking knots
Post by: roo on July 11, 2010, 02:30:39 AM
I wonder if this combination can serve for a bend or a loop.
Xarax,

People are more likely to take the time to evaluate bends or loops if you first show that you are taking the time to seriously evaluate and test knots (ease of tying procedure, memorability, security, jam resistance, etc.), and are not just posting endless pictures of knot permutations as if you are showcasing decorative ideas in the Fancy & Decorative Knotwork board.

In other words, do you expect others to give these knots more than just a glance if you're not willing to give them more than just a glance before posting them?
Title: Re: Interlocking knots
Post by: SS369 on July 11, 2010, 02:38:16 PM
Hello Xarax,
I personally thank you for posting the "permutations" as you explore them.
I don't know that too many here do as you are doing even privately.

In the beginning, I came across, developed, invented, discovered a double loop knot by chance and fiddling while relaxing and so began my membership here in the forum and then the Guild itself. I had sought out the answer to "Did I invent a new knot?". After much searching, purchasing books, digging and inquiring, I was finally informed by a much more involved and learned knot person that the "Scottknot" had been developed already. Probably by the same methods that you and I have done.

This is the place of all places for this and I hope that you'll continue to post the high quality pictures (Thank You!) as you find another permutation. They are worth thousands of words, to me at least.

Perhaps what you are showing us has been done somewhere, sometime, but if it hasn't or no one has seen the pictures we'll never know.

BTW, some of these knots you've tied could almost be worthy of post in the Fancy and Decorative Knotwork board.  ;-)

Scott
Title: Re: Interlocking knots
Post by: SS369 on July 11, 2010, 07:17:50 PM
This thing about jamming is so subjective though pretty important most of the time, but you really can't tell if a particular knot (one that is supposed to be able to not jam) will jam unless you subject it to its most extreme use.
For instance: I had to combine two sewn tow straps to achieve the needed length to pull a piece of equipment from a mud hole. Knowing that I was about to yank and jerk and strain these two I decided the simplest way to join them was to thread one strap through the loop of the other and then the other through the other's loop. Essentially the way you'd join two rubberbands. So simple..
Yet after the loads were applied and the equipment was salvaged, I attempted to undo the knot and failed to do so.
Just recently after a couple of years of sitting in the barn happily coupled to each other, I took to nearly destroying those two straps with pliers and spike, but finally divorced them. I noticed that though I did not exceed the breaking limits of the straps the loops had fused together and thus jammed in a seemingly "un-jammable" bend.

Title: Re: Interlocking knots
Post by: KnotMe on July 13, 2010, 05:07:37 PM
As a fancy and decorative type, I'm totally enjoying this series of posts.  Showing back and front is especially helpful.  Keep up the good work.
Title: Re: Interlocking knots
Post by: roo on July 13, 2010, 05:14:29 PM
As a fancy and decorative type, I'm totally enjoying this series of posts.  Showing back and front is especially helpful.  Keep up the good work.
Are you suggesting (perhaps correctly) that this be moved to a different board?
Title: Re: Interlocking knots
Post by: roo on July 13, 2010, 07:50:53 PM
Are you suggesting (perhaps correctly) that this be moved to a different board?
   
   To roo,
   Are you suggesting (perhaps correctly) that the same should be forced to happen to any thread that dares to describe "non-bowlinesque" knots as bowlines, or "random" knots as new, or any knots whatsoever that present some symmetry higher than ordinary "practical knots" ? Do not bother, I have been censored many times in my life... :) :) :)
No.
Title: Re: Interlocking knots
Post by: Dan_Lehman on July 16, 2010, 08:41:24 PM
 Yet another figure 8 - Clove Hitch joint, the third posted in this thread. Notice the pleasent back view, with the characteristic S shaped (orange) strand between the two parallel (white) loops of the hitch.

None of these knots has a proper "Fig.8" in them -- just something
that has an '8' shape.  In this case, it's a Constrictor (and, with the
Clove, thus 1 tuck shy of symmetry).

Quote
  Note added at 16-7-2010

With an International audience, date forms should be of yyyy-mm-dd format,
to avoid confusion.  ("16" can only be a day, here, of course.)

--dl*
====
Title: Re: Interlocking knots
Post by: Wed on July 16, 2010, 09:55:00 PM
Do I have an international audience ?
Yes
Title: Re: Interlocking knots
Post by: KnotMe on July 17, 2010, 04:18:32 AM
the IGKT is by definition an international thing.  off the top of my head there are regular contributors to this forum from France, UK, US, and Canada plus a new one from Russia.  No doubt there are lurkers from elsewhere and regular contributors that haven't yet declared a country of origin.

whenever you post to the internet you should assume an international audience
Title: Re: Interlocking knots
Post by: yetanotheruser on September 23, 2010, 08:45:40 AM
Dear Sir, I have got a practical problem, and after some trials I discover "Aphrodite" last week independently. Very nice knot!
It was interesting for me if somebody discover it before me. In that way I find out your Post.
The second question was if you have any experience with using Aphrodite in my practical application. Probably not, but maybe I'm in wrong. So, Aphrodite, in my opinion, is the best solution to tie a net by means of static climbing rope, climbing net. The shape and Aphrodite properties seem to be very close to perfect solution. The only disadvantage is a big rope consuming. What do you thing about net application? "Aphrodite" is very nice but maybe "The Oyster" is closer to this knot. You was first, it is your choice
Title: Re: Interlocking knots
Post by: Rrok007 on September 23, 2010, 05:38:26 PM
Looking at the knots you are posting here, especially the recent "oyster" knot, it strikes me that you are close to discovering what could very well be called, for all intents and purposes, a Matthew Walker Bend. Though, I think, such a thing would rarely be practical, it would nonetheless be attractive.
Title: Re: Interlocking knots (The two 88 bends)
Post by: xarax on January 17, 2011, 08:11:01 AM
  I have tied again all the knots that I have published here, and I have discovered a minor mistake at the pictures of a family of knots that I should gave corrected in the first place, so that the representation of the loose/initial form of those knots resemble closer their tightened/final form.
  There are two similar knots in this family, where I interlocked two 8 s to make a bend (hence their name, 88 bends).
  In the first case, there are two riding turns around the knot s nub on the outside side of its shell. In the final tight form of this knot, we get a nice compact bend/stopper, with beautiful curvilinear rope paths, that I have named "Aphrodite" at first !  :) But, because this bend turned out to be the most tightly jamming knot I know,(!), I renamed it "The Oyster", for obvious reasons...The standing part paths are wide, around three rope diameters, a characteristic that I considered very interesting. I must point out, though, that I have not succeeded, to this day, to discover a simpler method of tying this beautiful, compact bend/stopper.
   In the second case, the strands that were going -previously, in the "Oyster"- around the knot, now stay inside its nub, as two "embraced" rope strands. Unlike the "Oyster", this bend is easily unloaded and untied - it is not easily jammed. I have named it the "F88' bend ( because, in a simplified form - where we un-tuck the tails of an F88 bend once-this knot produces an interesting Carrick-like bend that I have named "S88" bend : simplified 88 bend).
   In the corrected loose form of those knots, one has only to grasp the two standing ends/tails pairs and pull them apart, to tighten the knots, without the relative position of the strands inside each pair be changed, in any way, during the whole dressing procedure.

P.S. 2011-10-30 : This bend is identical with the B 5, N-fold, N=3 Threefold bend, by Roger E. Miles : Symmetric bends. (How to Join Two Lengths of Cord), 1995 (p. 87, p.108). Miles suggests that " the easiest way to tie [ those N-fold bends ], is via the Ashley illustration (ABoK#777)" (p.124).
Title: Re: Interlocking knots
Post by: xarax on January 17, 2011, 08:17:15 AM
  The (F)88 bend.

P.S. 2011-10-30 : This bend is identical with the A 24 bend, named "Tweedledee bend", by Roger E. Miles : Symmetric bends. (How to Join Two Lengths of Cord), 1995.(p. 86, p.106)
Title: Re: Interlocking knots
Post by: xarax on January 17, 2011, 08:24:05 AM
  The old pictures of the same knots, that should now be replaced with the above, were the following ( See attached pictures). Notice the relative positions of the two rope strands of each standing end pair, in the new and old pictures, and the final, tightened, forms of the bends. In the new, corrected pictures, the one is above the other, in the old there were side by side. Big difference ! In the new pictures the standing ends (and the tails) stay in this position right through the tying procedure, to the final, tightened knot form, without any additional dressing.
Title: Re: Interlocking knots
Post by: rusty427 on January 17, 2011, 12:23:38 PM
Hey Xarax, excellent pictures! I like "The Oyster".

I will add this to my repertoire. Knot tying is a personal  expression of what one likes, it stimulates the mind and provides great satisfaction. I like to recognize my work in the wild, I saw some today that are a couple of years old, still functioning. I will be sure to leave "The Oyster" some where on the water front for you. It could make a pretty loop too!

Rusty
Title: Re: Interlocking knots
Post by: SS369 on January 17, 2011, 04:30:31 PM
Thanks for reinstalling these and adding the corrections as well Xarax.

I liked the "Oyster" bend and forgot to capture the image.

SS
Title: Re: Interlocking knots
Post by: knot4u on January 17, 2011, 07:11:59 PM
Xarax, thank you for re-posting your pics.  Some folks would like to imagine your pics have no value, but your pics certainly do.  This forum is more valuable with your pics here.  For example, your pics (now removed) of the Gleipnir made that knot click for me, and now the Gleipnir is one of my favorite knots.  After that, I started to pay more attention to the knots you post.
Title: Re: Interlocking knots
Post by: SS369 on January 20, 2011, 08:56:38 PM
Since we/I have jump into interlocking overhands I thought I would move the answer in  the thread over in  "Wanted : A bend for very stiff ropes" http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=2154.msg16306;topicseen#new (http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=2154.msg16306;topicseen#new) to right here. Could be here and there, but this is my choice.

Xarax:

I am surprised at your disliking this "bend"? LOL To create what I mentioned in the other thread, the re-tucked ABOK2421 twofold overhand bend, AKA two strand Mathew Walker knot, all that I have done was to chase the working ends through the middle paralleling the first go. Gently pulling and snugging on both SP and WE as I pressed the coils into place.
Not necessarily the easiest to form up in the way of bends, but some just take a little work.
Close up picture has SP and WE indicated.

Mind you, this has not been loaded very much, just opposing hard pulls by hands.

SS
Title: Re: Interlocking knots
Post by: SS369 on January 20, 2011, 10:41:11 PM
Tie it single, pull it closed some leaving room for the re-tuck and then take each WE and follow its respective part inside the collars so they, the working ends are side by side.

See if this picture helps any.
Newly tied two colors, imposed on the original picture and labeled parts.
It do look symmetrical. ;-)

SS
Title: Re: Interlocking knots
Post by: xarax on January 21, 2011, 06:48:28 PM
   Thank you SS369,
   After your last post, I realized that I had NOT tied this bend till now, and I tried to follow your instructions.
  I came up with three :), slightly different, re-tucked true lovers bends, and I wonder which is the one you describe, if it is any at all ! LOL
  1. You tie a tightened single true lovers bend.
  2. You pull the (initial) colars to make some room, alongside the central axis, for the re-tucking of two tails.
  3. You pass the two tails ( that are now your working ends) around the standing ends, to form two (new) colars. Otherwise the tails would slip, and disappear, into the knot, if they would be pulled by the their free ends.
  4. Then, you pass the two working ends through the central opening of the loosened knot s nub, in opposite orientations, parallel to the central axis.
  5. You end up with a re-tucked true lovers bend, where the tails and the standing ends of each of the two ropes are adjacent, parallel, and coming out of the knot from the same side.

   When one has completed the collar forming stage, he has three options in the way he can pass the working ends through the central opening. The working ends can go through the knots nub in a crossing or in two non-crossings ways. I have labeled these two re-tcking ways the S(x) ( x: crossing of the tails just before they exit the knot s nub) and the S(1) and S(2). The crossed tails way produces a slightly larger, in volume, knot, as expected.
   Although these knots are somehow symmetric, they are not as much symmetric as the original bend. In the S(1) and S(2) case, we have two symmetric to each other links, but in the S(x) we have the aditional complication of the two tails crossing each other from oposite sides.
   I had previously tied many different re-tucked nots, starting from the same true lovers knot, but my philosophy was different. I any place within the knot I saw a pair of two adjacent rope strands, I tried to "feed" it  by a third strand going adjacent to the original two. I had tried to find a path inside, or around, the knot s nub, so the re-tucked tails pass by this place. My initial purpose was to have nipping loops going around three rope diameters, in the spirit of my original question about bends suitable for stif ropes. So, I have been tying very different knots, and I overlooked those three you have suggested.

   P.S. 2011-1-22 : I have completely mis-understood the simple set of re-tucking rules offered to me by SS369, so I have tied completely different knots ! Read the following posts, where I was finally able to understand what has been told to me right from the begining... :)
http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1919.msg16373#msg16373
 

Title: S(1) re-tucked true lovers bend
Post by: xarax on January 21, 2011, 06:50:18 PM
S(1) re-tucked true lovers bend
Title: S(2) re-tucked true lovers bends
Post by: xarax on January 21, 2011, 06:54:33 PM
S(2) re-tucked true lovers bends
Title: Re: Interlocking knots
Post by: SS369 on January 22, 2011, 05:43:21 AM
These are interesting Xarax.

have you loaded them at least as much as you can by hand and how well do they untie?
See any real advantages to the added interplay of the diameters and thickness?


The version I tied and photographed looks the same both sides, just the colors are reversed.
But is a neat compact knot once dressed, even though there are increased diameters.
I'll have to load mine heavily and see how it unties.

SS
Title: Re: Interlocking knots
Post by: SS369 on January 22, 2011, 06:33:47 PM
Good day Xarax,

I have retied and rephotographed and here are the results.
I don't think it is Identically symmetrical in Every way, every view, from all angles, but then after twisting, turning, wrestling with the larger rope my eyes are crossed. ;-)

IMHO, in my mind it should be though since they are identical knots just opposing and interlocked.
Then again I may be just to close to it for now.
Anybody have an opinion?

SS
Title: Re: Interlocking knots
Post by: xarax on January 22, 2011, 07:37:48 PM
  Beautiful knot, beautiful pictures ! Congratulations ! You did it BECAUSE you have not followed your instructions, as I did !  :) You pass the tails/working ends AROUND the knot s nub, before you make them enter inside it, and pass them through the central opening. This is a very natural, very useful re-tucking, and offers nice, VERY wide standing parts (first) curves, around five (5 !) rope diameters ! Smaller than the re-tucked water bend, completely symmetric links...Beautiful ! Delete the previous pictures, this is perfect ! You should move the post back to its original place, because this bend is a beautiful answer to my stif rope bend question !  :) But no, post it in a new thread that it deserves.  
Title: Re: Interlocking knots
Post by: SS369 on January 22, 2011, 08:54:19 PM
Thanks Xarax.

Going back over my "instructions", poor as they were, they still made sense to Me. LOL
I am glad you hooked up with what I had tied and ineptly described and had success. It must have been the picture of the exploded knot that spoke the thousand words. ;-)

I think that I will leave all this here because it is germane to the thread's topic line.
These are interlocking knots (of the same type).
The preceding pictures led the way to here and some may get ideas from those as well. (And that is very important)

If someone would like to discuss the merits(?) of this as a useful bend, in the realm of a permanent connector, e.g., the double fisherman's bend, we can take it elsewhere if we care to.

It is kind of pretty.  :-)

SS
Title: Re: Interlocking knots
Post by: SaltyCracker on January 23, 2011, 12:11:08 AM
Might as well throw the doubled granny knot into this mix...
Title: Re: Interlocking knots
Post by: SS369 on January 23, 2011, 12:29:35 AM
Hello SaltyCracker,
thanks for throwing in.

At least we're thinking about this.
Do you think that the Granny re-tucked has anything to it that makes it better or worse?
Would you use it for anything?

SS
Title: Re: Interlocking knots
Post by: SaltyCracker on January 23, 2011, 04:06:49 AM
It's ABoK #779 turned into a bend instead of a two-strand lanyard knot. Discovered it when trying to figure out the knot in Norman Rockwell's "We Have a Job to Do" painting... not the turk's head the other one.

http://www.scouters.us/images/r1944.jpg

It's not the one in the painting, just one that was considered.
Title: Re: Interlocking knots
Post by: SS369 on January 23, 2011, 05:11:15 AM
The knot below the kerchief woggle looks to be a two strand re-tucked Mathew Walker lanyard knot. I think.
Basically the same thing as what is in my photo, just with the working ends oriented in the same direction if I am correct.
We're on the same page in thoughts.

SS
Title: Re: Interlocking knots
Post by: xarax on January 23, 2011, 10:49:34 AM
  As for the initial, single/simple true lovers bend, because it is so symmetric and simple, it is very sensitive to the initial form(s) of the loose knot we use before we tighten it . See the picturess of two possibly usefull representations of the initial stage, together with the one cited at Wikipedia at :  
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:True_Lover%27s_knot-0.jpg
Title: Re: Interlocking knots
Post by: SaltyCracker on January 23, 2011, 11:32:05 AM
The knot below the kerchief woggle looks to be a two strand re-tucked Mathew Walker lanyard knot. I think.
Basically the same thing as what is in my photo, just with the working ends oriented in the same direction if I am correct.
We're on the same page in thoughts.

SS

Yep, that's what it appears to be. ABoK #776 with an additional 1/2 wrap in the forming.

I think that this is a bit off topic so let's end or move to another thread.
Title: Re: Interlocking knots
Post by: SS369 on January 23, 2011, 03:42:36 PM
Anyone else vote to move this?
Or does it still fit in regards to the discussion of interlocking knots?

The versions we've been discussing prior have been with a "bend" type orientation.

SS
Title: Interlocked trefoil bend
Post by: xarax on January 23, 2011, 05:29:57 PM
  The re-tucking knots party is not over yet.  :)
  A re-tucked overhand knot is an "open" trefoil knot, a knot with two ends. If we join those two ends (again), we get our original trefoil knot back.
   Here is a close relative to the re-tucked true lovers bend presented by SS369. It is a point symmetric bend, that is probably jamming, or something next to it, when it is heavy loaded.
   I call it "interlocked trefoil bend", in the meaning of an "open trefoil" knot, i.e. a re-tucked overhand knot, mentioned above.
Title: Re: Interlocking knots
Post by: xarax on January 23, 2011, 05:34:49 PM
   If we remove the one link, the re-tucked overhand knot tied with the orange/red rope in the pictures, without even touching the other link, see what we are left with : The "open trefoil" knot, the re-tucked overhand knot I was talkng about in the previous post.
   The two twin links are identical, and are placed point-symmetrically into the knot s nub.
Title: Re: Interlocking knots
Post by: SaltyCracker on January 23, 2011, 05:48:30 PM
Anyone else vote to move this?
Or does it still fit in regards to the discussion of interlocking knots?

The versions we've been discussing prior have been with a "bend" type orientation.

SS

The suggestion to move to another Topic wasn't clear. The intent was to refer only to the subject of the knot in Norman Rockwell's "We Have a Job to Do" cover on a 1944 Boy's Life magazine. A separate Topic on that has been started. Look forward to your inputs & pardon the confusion.


Title: Re: Interlocking knots
Post by: xarax on January 25, 2011, 12:58:22 AM
   Two interlocked hitches always form interesting bends, and here is one of the most simple out of them : Two interlocked Clove hitches. Depending upon the precise orientation of the two riding turns, relatively to each other, we get two forms of interlocked Clove hitch bends, presented in the attached pictures. The one with the standing ends departing from different points out of the knot s nub is more interesting, (and more symmetric) from the other, as a bend.  
Title: Re: Interlocking knots
Post by: SS369 on January 25, 2011, 02:29:15 AM
Clean looking bend Xarax.
I'll try it out .

How do you think the knot will perform under load? The pictures don't show a loaded orientation.

I have just tried tying to interlocked cow hitches using 3/16" pull start cord (tough stuff) and applied foot and hand strain (made a loop) to it and I like it.
It holds very well and is as easy to untie as the Rosendahl bend.
Camera battery dead. ;-(

Someone else try it please.

SS
Title: Re: Interlocking knots
Post by: [Inkanyezi] gone on January 25, 2011, 09:24:35 AM
Camera battery dead. ;-(

Someone else try it please.
Something like this then. It is made by first tying a Carrick Bend, then reeving ends through the collars along the standing parts.
Title: Re: Interlocking knots
Post by: xarax on January 25, 2011, 11:20:08 AM
   The first time it had happened to me to tie the two interlocked cow hitches, was when I  posted my "best 4 ends bend" problem. I thought that it was a good bend, in the case that 3 or even 4 of the ends of a bend are loaded. Dan Lehman, in a constructive reply, proposed the water bend, and I think that this is the best solution of this problem to this day.
  There are two problems with this bend, that I have encounter, in a more or less pronounced way, in many other symmetric "lovers" bends, that is, bends made by two identical links.
   The first problem is what I call "symmetry breaking" of a "love" bend, when the bend is loaded. The two links are tightened differently, depending upon the particular position of the standing ends and/or tails in the particular dressing, so, at the end, we come up with a bend with identical topologically, but not geometrically, links. The two Cow hitches bend is very sensitive to this effect. (The Zeppelin X bend was also sensitive, but much less). In the attached pictures one can see a very common asymmetrically loaded form of this bend. The two coils of the one Cow hitch / link (orange/red rope) remain on two parallel planes, while those of the other (white rope) form a flat B figure.  
   The second problem is more serious, I think. When the first link is locked around the other, the second run the danger to remain loose and untightened, so the bend does not close in a tight, compact form. We have to carefully dress the bend, to make the two links to lock simultaneously, to escape from this danger. That problem was not present in the simpler two interlocked Clove hitches bend.
   In the case of the Cow hitch bend, I have tried to address the first problem in a way, but I fall into a bigger second problem !  :) Namely, I tied an interlocked bull hitches bend, shown in the attached pictures. One escapes from the Scylla to fall onto the Charybdis here ! The two links of the two interlocked bull hitches bend is very difficult to be forced to lock simultaneously, as this is a more complex bend than the simple interlocked Cow hitches one.
   I think that the interlocked bull hitch bend might be a solution for bends tied with ropes of hugely different diameters, the problem knot4u has posed some time ago. But the solution of Inkanyezi, with the Zeppelin bend where the line of the smaller diameter rope is doubled, is also very satisfactory, and it is a benchmark against which the other solutions of this problem should be examined.
Title: Interlocked bull hitches bend
Post by: xarax on January 25, 2011, 11:41:56 AM
Interlocked bull hitches bend (side view)
Title: Re: Interlocking knots
Post by: SS369 on January 25, 2011, 04:04:22 PM
Thanks for the picture Inkanyezi. ;-) Yep that is it.
Interesting way you mention to tie it, I'll try that way too. I just tied it by cow hitch method.

Thanks Xarax for the Bull hitch version. I do wonder how it would perform under high loading. Would the rope/cord creep and unwind to the point of disassembly?

I sure wish we, the IGKT, had a test cell at our disposal!

These hitch/bends do need some added attention in the tightening and dressing department, but if the virtues are great enough then that is what it needs for use. There are plenty of other practical knots that need this as well.

SS
Title: Re: Interlocking knots
Post by: DDK on January 25, 2011, 04:57:30 PM
  The first time it had happened to me to tie the two interlocked cow hitches, was when I  posted my "best 4 ends bend" problem. I thought that it was a good bend, in the case that 3 or even 4 of the ends of a bend are loaded. . . .

  There are two problems with this bend, that I have encounter, in a more or less pronounced way, in many other symmetric "lovers" bends, that is, bends made by two identical links.
   The first problem is what I call "symmetry breaking" of a "love" bend, when the bend is loaded. The two links are tightened differently, depending upon the particular position of the standing ends and/or tails in the particular dressing, so, at the end, we come up with a bend with identical topologically, but not geometrically, links. The two Cow hitches bend is very sensitive to this effect. . . .
 
   The second problem is more serious, I think. When the first link is locked around the other, the second run the danger to remain loose and untightened, so the bend does not close in a tight, compact form. We have to carefully dress the bend, to make the two links to lock simultaneously, to escape from this danger. That problem was not present in the simpler two interlocked Clove hitches bend.

When working with the Carrick Bend version of the Cow Hitch Bend as described above by Inkanyezi, I find that some minor additional dressing of the bend is possible after moderate to heavy loading, but otherwise, the bend is nearly self-dressing.

DDK
Title: Re: Interlocking knots
Post by: xarax on January 25, 2011, 06:39:49 PM
  With my climbing kernmantle ropes, the "interlocked cow hitches" bend takes this asymmetric form too many times, to allow me characterize the symmetric form as "nearly self-dressing ! But I start from two loose interlocked cow hitches, because this is the most natural and easily memorizable way to tie this bend, I believe, although not the faster one, of course. The "interlocked clove hitches" bend does not suffer from this problem so much.    
Title: Re: Interlocking knots
Post by: SS369 on January 25, 2011, 07:01:21 PM
I am finding that when tying the clove version one of the outer most bights (going around the standing part) pulls loose moving the nipped working end loose when loading. Even when I dress it tightly the same happens as the two standing parts straighten.

The cow version seems to be a little more tolerant of this phenomena.
Another aspect to the cow version is that the load to the line looks to be mostly imparted on the central coils, not so much to the entry points of the standing ends.

I am still only applying what I can using the sling pulled by hand and foot method.

Anyone else experience this?

SS
Title: Re: Interlocking knots
Post by: xarax on January 25, 2011, 07:12:27 PM
   SS369, which one of the two versions are you referring to ? They look quite the same, but they are loaded differently...
Title: Re: Interlocking knots
Post by: SS369 on January 25, 2011, 07:44:37 PM
Looking back at this thread I only find one version with pictures that show different views of the same knot and unloaded.
Hard to answer your question.

The version(?) I tied is  if you tie two separate clove hitches and merge them into each other's center.

I'll have to take and share a picture later if time allows.

SS
Title: Re: Interlocking knots
Post by: DDK on January 25, 2011, 07:50:39 PM
 With my climbing kernmantle ropes, the "interlocked cow hitches" bend takes this asymmetric form too many times, to allow me characterize the symmetric form as "nearly self-dressing ! But I start from two loose interlocked cow hitches, because this is the most natural and easily memorizable way to tie this bend, I believe, although not the faster one, of course. The "interlocked clove hitches" bend does not suffer from this problem so much.    

One can tie interlocked cow hitches in four different forms, i.e. distinct bends (excluding right or left-handedness).  Two of these bends has rotational (Smith/Hunter's-like) symmetry and the other two do not.  The Carrick Bend leads to a Cow Hitch Bend which has rotational symmetry.  Possibly, the behavior seen is due to starting with a bend which is not rotationally symmetric before tightening.  I could also see how, for example, a stiff rope might require much more care in the dressing of this or any bend.

DDK
Title: Re: Interlocking knots
Post by: xarax on January 25, 2011, 09:03:47 PM
One can tie interlocked cow hitches in four different forms, i.e. distinct bends (excluding right or left-handedness).  
 
   True, but only the most symmetric forms are interesting, I suppose, because the two links are loaded in the same way, as they should, if we want to have evenly distributed tension forces on them. ( I reckon that the two most symmetric knot forms would be probably safer, as bends, than the other two, but this is only a vague hypothesis...) I think that, as regards those two most symmetric forms, the precise form they take when  they are loaded has to do with the -relative- positions of the standing parts of the two links. When the standing parts are as shown in the first attached picture, the bend that comes out is mainly the normal, symmetric form, where both the two cow hitches have their usual shape ( shown in the first picture, as symmetric A form). When the standing parts are as shown in the second attached picture, the bend that comes out has one or two "B" shaped cow hitches (shown in the second picture, as B form). In the other two, less symmetric cases, we get the mixed results of the first and second picture of reply 41.
   I think that most people would prefer the A form, and would tend to believe that this bend would be safer than the other. I, too, prefer the aspect of the A form, but I am not sure about its better safety characteristics as a bend, relatively to the B form...
Title: Re: Interlocking knots
Post by: xarax on January 25, 2011, 09:43:42 PM
  I only find one version...
   The version (?) I tied is if you tie two separate clove hitches and merge them into each other's center.
   SS
 
   The picture of the reply #51 shows two slightly different "interlocked clove hitches" bends (1). When we tie a normal clove hitch around a pole, we can tie it in two mirror symmetric ways. The riding turn is not exactly "vertical", i.e. it is not perpendicular to the pole s axis. It is tilted to one side, if we tie it the one way, or to the other, if we tie it the other way. Now, when we tie two clove hitches around each other, the relative orientations of their riding turns produce the one, or the other, of the two "interlocked clove hitches" bends, as shown in the picture. Look at the first picture : The white rope links are identically tilted clove hitches, in both bends. (This is evident in the identical orientation of the white rope riding turns (10-4 o clock), shown in the second picture). But the orange/red rope links are slightly different, the tilting of the riding turns of each one of them relatively to the riding turn of the white rope, is different. In this first picture, the orange/red riding turn is tilted counter-clockwise (11-5 o clock), in the upper/left bend, and clockwise (1-7 o clock), in the lower/right bend.
   I hope I have described the difference of the two variations in an intelligible way !  :)
  
1.http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1919.msg16425#msg16425
Title: Re: Interlocking knots
Post by: SS369 on January 26, 2011, 12:56:06 AM
Here is a photo to gander at.
It shows the clove bend and the cow bend. The arrow indicates where the knot loosens under pull whereas the cow did not.

SS
Title: Re: Interlocking knots
Post by: xarax on January 26, 2011, 01:30:43 PM
It shows the clove bend and the cow bend.

  Unfortunately, there is not one, the, cow bend, neither one, the, clove bend !  :)
Regarding the clove bend, your bend in the previous post is only one of the four possible, or one of the two possible most symmetric such bends. It is the one shown in the first picture of reply #50. There is also the less common - symmetric nevertheless - version shown in the second picture of reply #50, which forms "B figure" shaped clove hitches. There are also two other, less symmetric versions, which form mixed results, as the one shown in the two first pictures of reply #41.
   With the clove hitch(es), we have a similar situation. I have presented two "interlocked clove hitches" bends, in post # 38, (1), where I presented this type of bend.
In the attached pictures, in two posts (because there is still a limit of four attached pictures in each post...), I post the detailed succession of tying this bend (in particular, the one shown in the upper/left part of the first picture), because it seems to me that it can be tied in ways that can lead to the problems you have mentioned in your post. The "interlocked clove hitches" bend does have problems, that is for sure, as I have attempted to explain in reply # 41, but I do not think that a properly tied "clove bend" suffers from the problem you mention. Of course, I may be mistaken, because those "simple" hitches/bends are not SO simple, after all !  :)

1). http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1919.msg16425#msg16425
    
Title: "Clove bend(s)"
Post by: xarax on January 26, 2011, 01:32:40 PM
"Clove bend(s)"
Title: Re: Interlocking knots
Post by: SS369 on January 26, 2011, 04:42:18 PM
Good day Xarax,

Don't get too upset with me for my liberty-taken naming. LOL

Something that stands out in the pictures you've added (thank you) is that the "clove bend" assembles at approx. right angles and so when loaded it would appear, as in the photo of mine to stress and move the crossing of the SP where I indicated.
Maybe I will try another orientation of the the two cloves to see if that can help.

"The" cow bend seems to not suffer from this SP crossing stress phenomena. Or if it does it does so to both sides relatively equal.

SS
Title: Re: Interlocking knots
Post by: xarax on January 26, 2011, 06:36:28 PM
...the "clove bend" assembles at approx. right angles

  I would say, at exactly right angles !  :) Now, if you tighten this bend after this right angles-initial loose state, you get a bend that does not presents the problem you mention.
  See the attached pictures, where the "clove bend" is shown tightened and loaded, and its working ends aligned. See how they exit the knot, and how the tails exit the knot.
   The "clove bend" name is fine !  :) Or we can name it i-clove bend (instead of the full "interlocked clove hitches bend"), if this name is not under some company s copyright !  :)
Title: Re: Interlocking knots
Post by: SS369 on January 26, 2011, 08:44:06 PM
I've retied it a couple of times and I believe that my first go is different than what you are displaying. My second, etc. go at it yields something different yet again. ;-0
One immediate difference I see is that I have the SP and WE parts crossing outside of the central area as in how a Carrick bend does.
Yours cross inside as in the "cow" version or re-tucked interlocking overhands more so.

Here's a picture of what I have tied.

SS
Title: Re: Interlocking knots
Post by: xarax on January 26, 2011, 10:33:42 PM
   Yes, I see your attitude, which leads to bends similar to the bend on picture of your reply #52.
   My purpose was to tie a i-clove bend as compact as possible. Of course, this has its shortcomings - the "close form" bends that are tied that way are jamming, and are jamming veeery tightly, while this may not be so if you tie the more "open form" bends you have been tying...
   Go back to my pictures, especially those where I tie the one clove hitch after the other, around the glass tube, and then the two together, around each other. That way we get the more tightly tied i-clove bend, and I think that we can really distinguish that way by the standing ends that exit the knot s nub at right angles, as you have mentioned. ( Notice the glass tube, that was rotated at right angles, from the one step to the other ). When we do not have standing ends at right angles, we have differently tied, "open" form i-clove bends.  
Title: Re: Interlocking knots (The two 88 bends)
Post by: Dan_Lehman on January 27, 2011, 06:40:12 AM
But, because this bend turned out to be the most tightly jamming knot I know,(!), I renamed it "The Oyster", for obvious reasons...

After tying this and so getting to see it from other perspectives,
I came to realize that I'd seen something like this some time ago,
back when I was looking for improvements to the "EDK" (offset
water knot
) for an abseil-ropes joint --and offset bend.  Look at
this form either end, and you'll see a quite appealing structure
for being loaded by that end's two exiting parts (qua SParts),
where each of the orange/white ropes will lie on the inside &
also the outside of the other --neither can be pried out around
its opposite.

However, even my ARJ knot --where the tails exited in another
manner, at right angles to the offset body-- was not easy to untie.
And I came to realizing that symmetry is not a winning characteristic
for ARJ knots, as the joined materials are often *asymmetric*, of
different sizes & nature.  I called my offset bend the "Beehive"
for this classical domed hive look.

--dl*
====
Title: Re: Interlocking knots
Post by: SaltyCracker on January 28, 2011, 03:22:47 AM
Finished version of Interlocking knot shown in steps in the post at the link below. Kinda like the vice-versa (spelling correction 2011-Jan-28) but more versatile. Can be tied as a bend or fixed loop. It's ABoK 1031 tied as a bend.

http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=2792.msg16568#msg16568 (http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=2792.msg16568#msg16568)

Holds in about anything; Low profile; not too hard to tie; seems to have a high breaking strength; fairly easy to un-tie; ends lie parallel to standing parts. I've switched from bowline to using this in kevlar speargun line-shaft line.
Title: Re: Interlocking knots
Post by: SS369 on January 28, 2011, 03:46:39 AM
Hello SaltyCracker,
Thanks for posting.

This knot isn't, in my opinion, an interlocking one in the same vein that the others in this thread are. The fisherman's knot (many names for this one) doesn't interweave the main structure of each half.

Look into the double version of this knot for an even more secure bend. I am sure you will enjoy it more.

SS
Title: Re: Interlocking knots
Post by: Dan_Lehman on January 28, 2011, 05:21:24 AM
Hello SaltyCracker,  Thanks for posting.
This knot isn't, in my opinion, an interlocking one in the same vein that the others in this thread are.
 The fisherman's knot (many names for this one) ...

Hey, Scott, as remarked elsewhere, you're mis-seeing this knot
(or having similar trouble w/download as I have --maybe it's my
connection).  NB: "#1031" (also 1048).

(And I call the Grapevine-bend type of knots "pull-together",
yes, not "interlocked", nor "trace" (Ring/Flemish, e.g.).)

 ;)
Title: Re: Interlocking knots
Post by: SaltyCracker on January 28, 2011, 09:56:13 AM
See the "... Sheet Bend Alternative" topic for additional info on the knot.

http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=2792.msg16580#msg16580 (http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=2792.msg16580#msg16580)

As always be sure a knot is suitable for the purpose and tied properly before using. (And don't be wrong about being sure. Remember Statistics is the method by which mistakes are made with confidence... I think that's from Heinlein the sci-fi writer, may have been Piers Anthony... knot sure.)
Title: Re: Interlocking knots
Post by: xarax on January 28, 2011, 01:08:23 PM
   Thank you SaltyCracker,
  
   Very nice bend ! I have to say that, although I have tried dozens of "interlocked" knots, I have missed this one ! So, who knows how many other are there, still waiting for us to discover / re-discover them ? I do hope that we will have an exhaustive list of all practical knots ( and bends ) some-when in the near future, because they are many, that is true, but they are not infinite !  :)ker
   I would not describe this bend as an "interlocked knots" bend, made by two overhand bends, but that is only a matter of semantics or personal prejudices...May be the two linked overhand bends here can be described as "inter-woven"/inter-knitted" together...
   This bend is not so compact, but this has its advantages : Its structure is transparent, so the knot is easily inspected. The "second" nipping loop of the overand knot remains untightened sometimes, so the bend needs some adittional dressing by pulling the tails, too.

P.S. SaltyCracker calls his bend "ABoK#1031 bend". See: 
http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=2804.0
Title: Re: Interlocking knots
Post by: SS369 on January 28, 2011, 03:07:31 PM
Oooops, my bad.......eyes.
I indeed mis-saw the knot, please excuse.

Walks away semi-hangdog.
;-)

SS
Title: Re: Interlocking knots
Post by: Dan_Lehman on January 28, 2011, 07:49:09 PM
I would not describe this bend as an "interlocked knots" bend, made by two overhand bends
...May be the two linked overhand bends here can be described as "inter-woven"/inter-knitted" together...

Boy, this is splitting hairs --and I don't see any basis for your
distinction.  The subject knot DOES interlock overhands, and
more so than Rosenthal's, which is usually considered in this set.
1452, 1453, 1408, 1425, 1425a, RZ, Shakehands(1031 Rev'd),
...)  (The F88 knot(s) w/"8"-oriented overhands might be going
a bit farther afield?)
Here, the SParts interlock (unlike the RZ), and the collars contain
the opposite tail which is nipped by the interlocked SParts;
what further can be asked of it to qualify ... ?!

Quote
This bend is not so compact,  ...
 The "second" nipping loop of the overand knot remains untightened ...

Yes, but do remember that Shakehand is just this knot loaded
in reverse --and is #18 at the Layhands site.  That knot will be
more nicely shaped on setting/loaded, and easily untied.

Both, qua eyeknots, are TIB (Tiable In Bight).

--dl*
====
Title: Re: Interlocking knots
Post by: SaltyCracker on January 29, 2011, 05:38:36 PM
From the sheet bend alternative topic...


... If anything the knot in replies 11 & 12 is similar to, but not the same, as Harry Asher's Shake Hands, as shown in Budworth "Encyclopedia" book. It also resembles Vice Versa. It isn't a complicated knot to tie but certainly less straight-forward than some of the others in this topic. It is very obscure in that the only place I've ever seen it is as a loop knot in ABoK #1031 and, tied in the bight, #1048. And, I've never seen anyone else use it as a bend...


In regard to the #1031/#1048 based knot previously posted, I've been experimenting with Asher's shake hands and believe that it is the same knot... I'll start another topic on this knot rather than it being a distraction here... so maybe I have seen it used... just didn't recognize it!

Title: Re: Interlocking knots
Post by: xarax on January 30, 2011, 01:53:29 AM
   It was never so easy for me to dress the true lovers bend/ MWalker two strand bend quickly and correctly...( perhaps because, due to its maximum symmetry and simplicity, this knot is very sensitive to the initial loose form we have to set and tighten, in order to tie the knot in its correct final form.) So, when it comes to the doubled (re-tucked) version of it, (1)-(2), my difficulties are doubled ! To tie this beautifull compact bend correctly, I had to tie first the single true lovers/MWalker 2strand knot, then to loosen it and re-tucked it, and then to tighten it again...So, sometimes, I prefer to start from another, easier and quicker to set loose knot, which, when tightened, leads to a similar, but not so round and not so pretty bend. See the attached pictures of this not-so-compact form, and compare it with the original bend, at replies #18 and #25 (and my pictures of it, at reply #26).

1) http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1919.msg16314#msg16314
2) http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1919.msg16373#msg16373 
Title: Re: Interlocking knots
Post by: SS369 on January 30, 2011, 03:15:40 AM
Hello Xarax,

Although the knot you've shown has the same half parts, it is not the same knot as previously shown by me. The arrangement of those halves can make all the difference. There are quite a few knots that can be dressed other than the way it has been shown here and there. The dressing and orientation can take a fantastic knot and make it not so and vice versa.

I am fairly sure that there are others who have to tie a knot simply and then double or re-tuck it to make it happen for them. Just look at the myriad of ways people approach the tying of the bowline, zeppelin, butterfly, etc.
Take the re-tucked Zeppelin. It is finicky till you've rolled, pushed, pulled till it is tight. Before that the re-tucks can come out and the whole thing will be a loose mess till it results in the plain old Zeppelin(maybe).

Dressing is so important that we've just got to take the time to do it properly
or we'd better pick another knot altogether.

In decorative knotting the Mathew Walker knot was The most difficult knot to date for me to get dressed correctly. It was harder than even the single lead 7px6b pineapple knot! But, practice makes sort of perfect.

I believe that I prefer the earlier orientation of the interlocked re-tucked overhands (2strand MW bend) to the latest. As for which is the most secure, easiest to untie? I'll leave that till I can do more tests for myself.

Have you tried to jam it? Maybe some smaller cord will help you get a "feel" for it.

SS
Title: Re: Interlocking knots
Post by: xarax on January 30, 2011, 11:18:59 AM
   Thank you SS369,

...Although [this] knot...has the same half parts, it is not the same knot as previously shown by me.

  No, it is not. It is topologically identical and geometrically similar, but it is not the same !  (It is much uglier...and I have called it SS369 B, if you don't mind...Could you propose another name, please ? Because you are the father of this knot, too, like it or not ! :)). Its only advantage, for me, is that it is easier and quicker, (again : for me...), to dress it correctly.
   I find it amusing that knots that are different, even topologically, they can be named as variations of the same knot nevertheless , because they look quite the same, ( the Zeppelin and the Zeppelin X, for example) - while others, like those two bends of yours,  should probably be named differently, despite their similarities !
 
  Dressing is so important that we've just got to take the time to do it properly[/b] or we'd better pick another knot altogether.

 Me, personally, I am more interested in the strength characteristics of those two knots, than their decorative aspects. I can see the HUGE difference in their aesthetic qualities, believe me. But I am more interested in the fact that those two bends are great bends for stiff ropes, because their standing parts follow very gentle curves in their path inside the knot s nub. So, If I want a stiff rope bend, and I do not want to waste many more moments of the few left in my life, I would probably tie the SS369 B. I do not know "another knot to pick", better than this !  :)
 
 In decorative knotting the Matthew Walker knot was The most difficult knot to date for me to get dressed correctly... But, practice makes sort of perfect.

   Thank you !  :) I thought that it only was something in my brain that was jammed, because I have not read anybody else having the difficulties I encounter to dress even the single / un-tucked  MWalker 2strand knot correctly...I only tie a few knots, and much fewer decorative ones, for less than two years now, so my practice" is still in its infancy, alongside my "theory" !  :)
   I do not wish to test knots outside a properly equipped laboratory, so I am always reluctant to report my superficial results...I guess that both knots are very secure as bends, regardless their jamming or not properties.  
Title: Re: Interlocking knots
Post by: SS369 on January 30, 2011, 03:04:05 PM
Hi Xarax,

I dare not name the knot. And somewhere it probably has a name or number.
Yes, I do think there should be a method of nomenclature for knots that have undergone a modification, but are basically the same as the parent knot. But, if the major evolution is a re-tuck or being slipped, then I say add that as a descriptive portion to the original's name.

Dressing is so important to the security and performance of a knot that it could indeed loose strength if this is not addressed.

I think I'd be correct in stating that many others have had the challenge of dressing the MW knot and it is technique following that wins here.

Testing knots other than in a controlled environment is one part of the game, but there is the "practical" side of knot use and tying that can give you/us lots of insight(s) (for yourself personally) that if done correctly will teach of good and bad properties.
So unless someone has access to a test cell and does volunteer, we will have to do what we can and share our "tests, insights and findings".

Most of life is a theory anyway. (-.-)

SS
Title: Re: Interlocking knots
Post by: xarax on January 30, 2011, 04:38:25 PM
   OK father, I will serve as a godfather !  :)
   Let this new-born knot be named...re-tucked Hunter s X bend (!).
   Because that is exactly what it is... :) We take the Hunter s bend. We cross ( cross : X ) the tails before they exit the knot s nub ( just as we do in the case of Zeppelin bend, to get the Zeppelin X bend). We re-tuck this Hunter s X bend. We get your not-so-good-looking, second variation of the re-tucked true lovers bend/MWalker 2strands bend !
   It had not crossed my mind to re-tuck this crossed-tails Hunter s bend  !  :) (which, in its compact form, is identical to the true lovers / MWalker 2strands bend ).
Title: re-tucked Hunter s bend ( compact )
Post by: xarax on January 30, 2011, 06:57:28 PM
   Now that we have tied the re-tucked Hunter s X bend, we shouldn t leave the original Hunter s bend un-tucked, should we ?  :) See the attached pictures for a nice, compact version of it.  
Title: re-tucked Hunter s bend ( compact )
Post by: xarax on January 30, 2011, 07:50:50 PM
   If, in the re-tucked Hunter s bend, we cross the already re-tucked tails before they exit the knot s nub, we get a slightly different knot. The oblique tails, adjacent to the oblique helical turns of the coils, form an aesthetically pleasing whole. See the attached pictures.
Title: not-compact re-tucked Hunter s bend ( long, A )
Post by: xarax on January 30, 2011, 10:29:07 PM
   There are two very similar ways to re-tuck the Hunter s bend, in a "long", non-compact version. ( I have labeled them "A" and "B". See the pictures in this post, for the first of them, and in the next one, for the second. The differences are obvious. )
Title: not-compact re-tucked Hunter s bend ( long, B )
Post by: xarax on January 30, 2011, 10:31:55 PM
not-compact re-tucked Hunter s bend ( long, B )
Title: Re: Interlocking knots
Post by: xarax on January 31, 2011, 08:25:41 PM
  If we manage to tie the more easily tied SS369 B - re-tucked Hunter s X bend knot (1), we can push the two double rings/coils towards each other, and get the SS369 A - re-tucked MWalkers / true lovers bend knot (2)(3)(4). We just have to lave enough room so that the two links can slide the one towards the other, till they close to this beautiful globular knot. See attached pictures for three successive stages of this procedure.

1. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1919.msg16619#msg16619
2. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1919.msg16314#msg16314
3. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1919.msg16373#msg16373
4. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1919.msg16374#msg16374
Title: Which is which...
Post by: xarax on February 06, 2011, 12:52:00 AM
   Quiz : Whitch bend is which in the attached picture ?
   ( The Strangle bend, and the re-tucked Matthew Walker 2 strands bend.)
   Almost identical in their outer shell, their volume, and their possible advantages/disadvantages.
   
   
Title: Re: Interlocking knots
Post by: SS369 on February 06, 2011, 01:05:04 AM
Insufficient data.  ;-)

SS
Title: Re: Interlocking knots
Post by: xarax on February 06, 2011, 01:12:14 AM
Insufficient data.  ;-)

 :)
  It does not help if I say that , in the Strangle bend, in each link, the two ends are crossed under the riding turn, while at the re-tucked MWalker 2strands bend they are crossed beside the riding turn ? I suppose not, because the crossings are covered by the other links riding turns in both bends... :)

   However...However, if we look closely at those bends, they do look different : In the Stangle bend s outer shell, we do not have adjacent rings / riding turns that belong to different links, as we do in the MWalker 2strands re-tucked bend. With ropes of different colours, this is quite evident. (See attached picture)
Title: Clove bend(s)
Post by: xarax on February 06, 2011, 06:52:03 PM
     At previous posts in this thread, (1)-(2), I have posted some pictures of the Clove bend ( the bend made by two interlocked clove hitches).
   In those pictures I have tied the most "natural" clove bend(s), where the two rings are in touch to each other. We can tie the clove hitch and the clove bend(s) slightly differently, ( so the two rings are in one rope diameter a distance to each other ), if we interchange the positions of the standing end and the tail as they cross each other under the riding turn. See the attached pictures, for this B variation of the Clove bend. It might not look as compact as the first one, and this was the reason I had not considered and presented it until now. However, the fact that the two rings stay a little apart to each other, may have some advantages: They cover the oblique riding turn of the other clove hitch in a way that might be beneficial for the stability of the knot form under heavy loading.
   As with the Strangle bend and the trefoil bend, the Clove bend should be better tied with two clove hitches of the same orientation, two right-handed OR two left-handed hitches. Look carefully at the two pictures, and you will see that the Clove hitch tied with the orange/red rope is identical, has the same handedness, to/with the Clove hitch tied with the white rope.
   Because this has happened in all the "interlocked-hitches" bends that I have tied until now, I dare predict that it is a general rule : Contrary to what one might have expected, the two hitches of such a bend are better interlocked when they have the same handedness, they are both right-handed OR left-handed.
   Of course, all the swans were white - until we have met the first black one !  :)

1) http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1919.msg16425#msg16425
2) http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1919.msg16522#msg16522
Title: Re: Interlocking knots
Post by: xarax on June 22, 2011, 06:21:17 PM
   In (1) I have shown some bends that, although they are tied by interlocking - more or less - two overhand knots, they look like they are made by two fig .8., or two 8 shaped knots. The overhand knots. in both links, are elongated and twisted in their middle, so they appear like twisted 8 shaped figures, and not like a classic overhand knot figures.
   In the Oyster bend,which is also made by two interlocked overhand knots, although maximally interwoven together, this is also seen very easily - if we look at the loosened knot, and not the very compact, tightened final knot. I post two new pictures of the loose Oyster, to show the 8 shaped form the overhand knots can take in a knot.( See attached pictures)
   There was some vague views expressed recently, that the new knots I have posted in this forum are "bulky". I would like to quantify this characterization a little, if possible. The Oyster bend, for example, is a compact, massive knot, but not "bulky"! It can be inscribed, as a solid figure, into a cylinder, with a radius of one and a half to two rope diameters, and a hight of three rope diameters. Very few bends are less "bulky" than this !   :)

1) http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3148.msg18869#msg18869
    http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3148.msg18872#msg18872  
2) http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1919.msg16217#msg16217
     http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1919.msg16219#msg16219
Title: Re: Interlocking knots
Post by: SS369 on June 22, 2011, 09:45:12 PM
I personally like the Oyster bend very much and have wondered how it would compare in all aspects to say the Grapevine (double fisherman)?
The bulkiness is something to consider if the rope has to pass over or through something and the leading edge shape and orientation has more to do with this (going over) than its massiveness.

If the mass of the bulk is capable of adding "strength and security", then it is to be considered a plus. Materials and tasks will dictate.

SS