International Guild of Knot Tyers Forum

General => Chit Chat => Topic started by: JustKnot on September 27, 2005, 05:55:49 PM

Title: hitch name?
Post by: JustKnot on September 27, 2005, 05:55:49 PM
hi,
I tied this knot by accident and just wondered is there a name for this knot and does it have particular use?
thanx

(http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b40/JustKnot/25-09-05_1932.jpg)
and the other side
(http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b40/JustKnot/25-09-05_1933.jpg)
Title: Re: hitch name?
Post by: roo on September 27, 2005, 07:18:37 PM
Quote
hi,
I tied this knot by accident and just wondered is there a name for this knot and does it have particular use?
thanx



It's great that you included pictures, but before we get too far, you had better specify or show which end is the free end and which end takes the force, and if it is a hitch, where the object to which you're hitching lies.

I see a sliver of something that looks wooden on both sides.  If that is the hitching object, are you showing the flip side of the knot structure?


Title: Re: hitch name?
Post by: JustKnot on September 27, 2005, 09:21:16 PM
sorry, forgot that the loop is not visible in pictures

the loop itself is on the left in both pics, don't know which end could be loaded because, as I said, I tied it accidently when untying some mess
I should try some combinations before another reply
Title: Re: hitch name?
Post by: Willeke on September 27, 2005, 11:16:22 PM
Hello JustKnot,
I am sorry, but I can not help you with the name of this knot. But I want to say: Welcome to this forum.

Willeke
Title: Re: hitch name?
Post by: knot_tyer on September 28, 2005, 01:35:43 AM
hello JustKnot...
...it looks like a type of bowline...could it be an Eskimo Bowline??....or something closely related?:
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:EskimoBowline.jpg
...can't really tell from the photo??
Dan-Alaska
Title: Re: hitch name?
Post by: Dan_Lehman on September 28, 2005, 06:45:32 PM
Quote
the loop itself is on the left in both pics, don't know which end could be loaded ...

I don't think that this structure has a name, nor much value, as tied.
But with the eye on the RIGHT side, and the lower left end loaded,
the resullting loopknot has the Bowlinesque qualities of (1) being
able to be tied after forming the eye (i.e., one doesn't have to pre-tie
some structure such as an Overhand or Fig.8 in the SPart into which
the end will later be reeved to complete the tying), and (2) the knot
will have a collar that enables easy untying.  To get a loopknot
with some security against loosening, have the lower right end,
upon its upper-left exit, then make a turn back down under  and
then up over-through-again (tucked out beside itself); this wrap
should enable the SPart to be gripped sufficiently well to keep it
from loosening (the knot won't be so easily untied, but still pretty
much so, I surmise).

Kinda like the Lehman8 in form.

(-;
Title: Re: hitch name?
Post by: JustKnot on September 28, 2005, 11:19:26 PM
thats not fair, you were reading my minds

I just turned the knot upside down and made some experiments and improvements, so here they are

this is the same hitch, just the loop is on the right and the loaded end goes straight to the left
(http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b40/JustKnot/28-09-05_2105.jpg)
and this is improved for easy untying. I don't remember it exactly but this one is similar to so called "russian bowline"
(http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b40/JustKnot/28-09-05_2108.jpg)
and this is how it is tied (just by pulling loop through loop)
(http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b40/JustKnot/28-09-05_2109e.jpg)
Title: Re: hitch name?
Post by: Brian_Grimley on September 29, 2005, 05:34:20 PM
JustKnot,

I would like to refer to the top picture of the three you posted September 28th.

If your knot is turned over, we see the running end is tucked under one of the two lines of the bight that forms the loop. If you tuck the running end under both of the lines forming the loop, with a little dressing, it is the "Harness Loop", ABOK #1050.

Ashley's graphics seem to show two forms of the "Harness Loop". The center graphic seems to show the loop not crossed. The right-hand graphic shows the loop crossed. Your knot obviously has the loop crossed.

There was a discussion on this forum about the "Double Dragon" loop, http://www.layhands.com/knots/Knots_SingleLoops.htm#DoubleDragon . It can be seen as a "Harness Loop" plus a turn (with a little dressing). Your knot (JustKnot Loop) can be seen as a "Harness Loop" minus a tuck (with a little dressing).

I used to think that the "Harness Loop" was a little boring. Guess not, huh!  ;D

Cheers,
Brian.

Title: Re: hitch name?
Post by: nautile on September 29, 2005, 06:59:40 PM
Quote
PABPRES  Perhaps it is the "Snip Hunters Bowline".  If it is reversed, the standing part becoming the running part it might be the "Mtn. Japer Hunter's Noose".  Both well known and docummented in the "instant knot" community.   "Rockets Knot" is a close second.


Hi PABPRES!
Could you, or someone else put some link to pictures of the 3 knots that you wrote about?
Tried Google : no luck.
Thanks.
Regards.

Title: Re: hitch name?
Post by: JustKnot on September 29, 2005, 07:08:18 PM
... I should buy ABOK before asking questions :)
Title: Re: hitch name?
Post by: KnotNow! on September 29, 2005, 07:27:23 PM
Hi Just Knot,
 I posted in haste, thought better of it so removed the posting, modified it to a more polite tone, removed that but not before all the world had seen.  So I'll go back to try and set the record straight... with apologies to all:
 At first I thought that Just Knot was pulling our collective leg.  So I made refferences to mythical knots used in pranks.. In the USA folks are often taken "Snipe Hunting".  Of course there are no snipe and the person being teased is left in the dark and wet, "Holding the Bag", waiting for snipe that never come.
 Next I thought Just Knot was serious so I tried to suggest that most knots that become universal and acepted are found by working to solve a problem not by doodling.
 Finally I decided it was none of my affair.
 Now that I am back into the thread:
 All knots or wannabe knots can be modified into something known and useful.  The knot as first presented is unknown to me.  I tied it and can find no function not served by other knots.  I am not intending to be harsh.. just giving you my observation.  I'll spend some time with the books I have and perhaps it is there somewhere.  But I keep bouncing back to the concept of a knot being developed without a purpose or need.  That is a very odd idea, or so it seems to me.
 Have fun ;D
Title: Re: hitch name?
Post by: JustKnot on September 29, 2005, 11:54:03 PM
Quote
... I should buy ABOK before asking questions

I wrote this not because of your post, just all these references to ABOK made me feel like christian without his bible
Title: Re: hitch name?
Post by: KnotNow! on September 30, 2005, 12:46:57 AM
Hi Just Knot,
 Well an ABOK becomes less essential as the forums get better and the digital images get handed around on the web.  But ABOK surely does save a lot of time and missunderstanding.  I played with your hitch an hour or two today.  Still haven't found one like it.  Although the (here we go again) ABOK #1831, The Capstan Knot has a similar feature, being able to be slid to adjust and capsized to lock.  Where as yours slides on the working end before being locked the Capstan Knot slides on the standing part and then can be locked.  I really must learn to post a jpg but my dialup is sooo slooowwww.  ABOK's come on Ebay about twice a week.  They tend to be in very fine shape and the price can be good or insane... bidding is like that.
Title: Re: hitch name?
Post by: Willeke on September 30, 2005, 07:26:25 PM
Roy,
While ABOK can be got easily and sometimes cheap in the USA, getting it to Europe, or the rest of the world, makes it too expensive for many Europeans and other people around the world. This is not even counting in the difference in income. A book that costs you an hour work can cost someone else a weeks wages. So, many people outside the USA / Western Europe have to do without ABOK.

Which tells me again that we should get started with the knot database. Often we only need a picture, and a simple "how to tie this knot", to discus it.

Willeke
Title: Re: hitch name?
Post by: KnotNow! on September 30, 2005, 07:57:27 PM
Willke,
 Of course you are correct and again I am guilty of thinking like a colonial.
 Getting the web to do more of the work is the way to go.  You have done so much great work toward that purpose with your web site and your contributions to both IGKT and KHWW.

Thank you.
Title: Re: hitch name?
Post by: nautile on October 01, 2005, 11:31:29 AM
Hi Just Knot

Buying ABOK (or other books)  on the Net

Try www.bookfinder.com ( have language options) this is the largest database on books ( new and second hand).

Description of books are correct and prices are better adjusted than on eBay ( have bought many time on both ). Watch for the grand total price : book + shipping. Sometimes you can buy a better book with less shipping for the same price as a less good one with higher shipping.
Only problem is that you must have a credit card to pay with.
Good luck.


Just to make what Willeke wrote more "palpable"

ABOK new condition


www.boofinder.com    begin at 35.90 euros

www.amazon.com
$47.25

www.amazon.co.uk
38.60£  and 35£ for the Budworth modified
That is $68.10  and $61.75

www.amazon.de
69.50 euros   and 82.90 euros for the Budworth modified
That is $83.58   and $99.70

www.amazon.fr
54.31 euros and 77.01 euros for the Budworth modified
That is $65.32  and $92.62


Minimal salary ( before taxes : about 20%) is 1 357,07 euros that is $1632.08 for 169 h of work

that is 8.08 euros or $ 9.66 before taxes and after ( what go on your bank account : 6.42 euros or $7.73)

so an ABOK in France is  nearly 9 h or nearly 12 hours of work for those at the basic level of salary

Title: Re: hitch name?
Post by: Willeke on October 01, 2005, 12:13:20 PM
As online bookshops go, I have done buziness with Amazon.com, they do hold the website for many small sellers, and I was satisfied with their response.

But the problem stays, not every one in the world can aford to buy books the way we westerners do. Even many of us are not able to spend more than a weeks grocery shopping on a book, let alone a months income.
And yes, for many people a secondhand ABOK for a good price can be more than a months wages.

(changed after reading the new version of the post by Nautile)
As you can see in the amended post above, even in rich France not every body can afford to buy buy this book. Ashleys Book of knots is worth a lot of money, but not money you do not have, or need for daily basics.


Willeke
Title: Re: hitch name?
Post by: Brian_Grimley on October 01, 2005, 04:46:07 PM
JustKnot,

DaveRoot, who posts to this forum, shows, at his site, many knots and relates most of them to Ashley's book. He shows the "Harness Loop" (Man Harness Loop, Artillery Loop) as #8 here: http://www.layhands.com/Knots/Knots_SingleLoops.htm . The Double Dragon Loop is #3.

Dave shows the form of the "Harness Loop" where the legs of the loop do not cross. Your Sept. 28th picture, with the extra tuck, will show the form of the "Harness Loop" where the legs of the loop are crossed.

If we remove the running end one tuck in the crossed form of the "Harness Loop", we get your loop (Sept. 28th picture). If we remove the running end one tuck in the uncrossed form of the "Harness Loop" we get a "Overhand Knot". I think your knot (Sept. 28th) is very interesting.

Cheers,
Brian.

Ps. Perhaps, if Dave would consider adding an index of the knots he shows by ABOK#'s, his site would be an even clearer resource for relating an ABOK#, used in this forum, to a graphic of that knot. Dave, what do you think? - Brian. :)
Title: Re: hitch name?
Post by: JustKnot on October 01, 2005, 06:18:44 PM
Just to compare the difference between EU veterans and new members:

if I buy ABOK at amazon.de that would cost 286 LTL - thats half of the minimal salary, or 1/5 of the average lithuanian's salary :o big money...

Thanks for everyone who helped with this knot name
Title: Re: hitch name?
Post by: DaveRoot on October 01, 2005, 07:06:19 PM
Quote
Ps. Perhaps, if Dave would consider adding an index of the knots he shows by ABOK#'s, his site would be an even clearer resource for relating an ABOK#, used in this forum, to a graphic of that knot. Dave, what do you think? - Brian. :)

Thanks for the idea, Brian!  I'll put together an "ABOK Index" of the knots at my site, and see how well it works out...

Dave
Title: Re: hitch name?
Post by: DaveRoot on October 18, 2005, 04:34:39 AM
Quote
Ps. Perhaps, if Dave would consider adding an index of the knots he shows by ABOK#'s, his site would be an even clearer resource for relating an ABOK#, used in this forum, to a graphic of that knot. Dave, what do you think? - Brian. :)

I added a "Knots Index" by ABOK #:
http://www.layhands.com/Knots/Knots_KnotsIndex.htm

Edit: Here's how to link to ABOK #2436 (for example):
http://www.Layhands.com/Knots/Knots_KnotsIndex.htm#2436


I also added the ability to download the entire knots website (all 9 articles) in a single .ZIP file for offline viewing.

Dave
Title: Re: hitch name?
Post by: Brian_Grimley on October 18, 2005, 03:19:30 PM
Dave,

Nice job! I was wondering about how you would design the ABOK access system to your site's information.  I like your showing a picture of the tied, dressed and set (in most cases) knot in the index!

I also like the organization of your knots by category with a picture, ABOK# and name. It will help people with a "what is the name ... ?" question.

Be assured, when I use an ABOK#, in a forum, and the knot is in your site, I will link to it!

Thank you for your work and let us hope that this will not get lost in the forum!

Cheers - Brian.