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General => Practical Knots => Topic started by: knot4u on June 13, 2010, 04:30:05 PM

Title: Fishing Knots - Joining Lines
Post by: knot4u on June 13, 2010, 04:30:05 PM
1.  What knot do you prefer for joining fishing lines?

2.  Can I safely use two San Diego Jam knots, or two Improved Clinch knots, etc., for joining lines like I do with a Double Uni knot?  I've searched the Internet and have only seen the Uni knot used for multiple fishing needs, such as joining lines as well as attaching lures, etc.

3.  Do you use different knots to join monofilament, braided, fluorocarbon, etc.?  Or do you use the same knot for joining all types of fishing line?

=====

EDIT:  After some testing, I'm finding the Zeppelin Bend to be as good as, or better than, common fishing knots for bending fishing lines.  I didn't even test the Double Zeppelin Bend, which is likely to be even stronger than the Zeppelin Bend.  Also, the Zeppelin Bend jams up in monofilament.  I did not test braided or fluorocarbon. See my Replies #71, etc.
http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1874.msg13148#msg13148
Title: Re: Fishing Knots - Joining Lines
Post by: knot4u on June 20, 2010, 09:39:05 PM
Based on discussions in another thread, the Zeppelin and Double Zeppelin will be my go-to knot for joining ANY fishing line.  I'm putting the Zeppelin family over the Sheet Bend family.  If the Zeppelin family somehow fails for joining fishing line, there's always the Double Uni.

http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1872.msg12788#msg12788
Title: Re: Fishing Knots - Joining Lines
Post by: roo on June 23, 2010, 04:35:03 AM
Based on discussions in another thread, the Zeppelin and Double Zeppelin will be my go-to knot for joining ANY fishing line.  I'm putting the Zeppelin family over the Sheet Bend family.  If the Zeppelin family somehow fails for joining fishing line, there's always the Double Uni.

http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1872.msg12788#msg12788

What do you have against standard fishing line knots for fishing line?  I assume that you're not trying to untie these knots, and you don't care much about how much line is used.  A little extra strength from the typical  fishing knots may be worth it.
Title: Re: Fishing Knots - Joining Lines
Post by: knot4u on June 23, 2010, 07:46:52 AM
Based on discussions in another thread, the Zeppelin and Double Zeppelin will be my go-to knot for joining ANY fishing line.  I'm putting the Zeppelin family over the Sheet Bend family.  If the Zeppelin family somehow fails for joining fishing line, there's always the Double Uni.

http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1872.msg12788#msg12788

What do you have against standard fishing line knots for fishing line?  I assume that you're not trying to untie these knots, you don't care much about how much line is used.  A little extra strength from the typical attributes of fishing knots may be worth it.

I have nothing against them.  I'm just looking to see what people use by asking the original three questions.

I've read that the strength of the Double Uni Knot is not as high as the strength of the Double Sheet Bend (which probably has less strength than the Zeppelin Bend).  I read that on a fishing site by a fisherman who actually uses the Double Sheet Bend on fishing line.  In fishing line, strength is an important consideration.  So, I'm just looking to see people's experiences.  It looks like there aren't too many fisherman here, or if there are, then this issue is not that important to them.
Title: Re: Fishing Knots - Joining Lines
Post by: Transminator on June 23, 2010, 08:09:51 AM
I've read that the strength of the Double Uni Knot is not as high as the strength of the Double Sheet Bend

I wonder what the source of that statement is.
The Double Sheet Bend failed for me in several scenarios in which I expect it to hold and that was with "normal" rope. In fishing line I expect it to be
a lot worse.
The Dbl Uni Knot (and that should be obvious by just looking at the structure and the mechanism) out-performs the Dbl Sheet Bend by a mile.
I saw a broadcast called "Knot Wars" somewhere on the web in which the Uni Knot was joined winner with the Blood Knot (not the double overhand knot, which is also sometimes called blood knot) when it came to bending fishing line.
They did a good bit of testing. Different line types and many common and not so common fishing knots, several repetitions each time.
The palomar loop, btw. was the winner in the "what knot to use for attaching a fishing hook to a line" category, which was probably a big surprise not only to me.

Edit:
just browsed the web for knot wars and it seems that there is a new champion. The modified albright has beaten the uni to uni.
Nevertheless, it only proves that the uni to uni is a very strong knot and it took a while before a new champion was found and in my opinion, it is a very easy not to tie and remember.
For the average person who goes fishing only once in a while, the palomar loop and the uni knot might be all they ever need.
Title: Re: Fishing Knots - Joining Lines
Post by: knot4u on June 23, 2010, 07:56:11 PM
I've read that the strength of the Double Uni Knot is not as high as the strength of the Double Sheet Bend

I wonder what the source of that statement is.
The Double Sheet Bend failed for me in several scenarios in which I expect it to hold and that was with "normal" rope. In fishing line I expect it to be
a lot worse.
The Dbl Uni Knot (and that should be obvious by just looking at the structure and the mechanism) out-performs the Dbl Sheet Bend by a mile.
I saw a broadcast called "Knot Wars" somewhere on the web in which the Uni Knot was joined winner with the Blood Knot (not the double overhand knot, which is also sometimes called blood knot) when it came to bending fishing line.
They did a good bit of testing. Different line types and many common and not so common fishing knots, several repetitions each time.
The palomar loop, btw. was the winner in the "what knot to use for attaching a fishing hook to a line" category, which was probably a big surprise not only to me.

Edit:
just browsed the web for knot wars and it seems that there is a new champion. The modified albright has beaten the uni to uni.
Nevertheless, it only proves that the uni to uni is a very strong knot and it took a while before a new champion was found and in my opinion, it is a very easy not to tie and remember.
For the average person who goes fishing only once in a while, the palomar loop and the uni knot might be all they ever need.


Thank you for the info Transminator.

I'm finding that the properties of fishing Line are vastly different than the properties of rope.  In fishing line, I guess jamming is the same thing as security (?).  In rope, we know that's not true because the overhand knot is great for jamming, but it somehow also slips (insecure).

So, please be careful not to jumble up security with strength.  For fishing line, security seems to be a giving because if fishing line jams, then it's also secure.  Strength, however, is the quality around which all fishing knots seem to be judged.  As you know, strength is so important in fishing line because the line is only as strong as the best knot.

I just want to clarify something that you said.  You said, "The Dbl Uni Knot (and that should be obvious by just looking at the structure and the mechanism) out-performs the Dbl Sheet Bend by a mile."

I have to point out here that your statement may have some validity when talking about fishing lines.  However, I don't think that statement applies to rope generally at all.  Going off of pure looks, I would have guessed the Double Fisherman is substantially stronger and more secure than the Zeppelin Bend.  Also, I wouldn't have guessed the Zeppelin Bend is very secure at all, but in fact it's more secure than any other bend I know even with light coming through the Zeppelin Bend.  Again, however, I will highlight that we are talking about fishing line here.

Going back to my original point, if jamming is the same as security IN FISHING LINE, then does that knock out the Sheet Bend and the Zeppelin Bend for being good fishing knots?  Neither of these is known for jamming, which is something I do want to happen in a fishing line.

I'm just think this through.  I brought these question to this site because the fishing sites don't want to get too technical when talking about knots.  They know what works for them, and they don't really want to analyze why.
Title: Re: Fishing Knots - Joining Lines
Post by: roo on June 23, 2010, 08:13:04 PM
I'm finding that the properties of fishing Line are vastly different than the properties of rope.  In fishing line, I guess jamming is the same thing as security (?).  
No, it's not the same thing.  Jamming just doesn't factor in because you don't typically try to untie fishing line.  You cut it.  It's disposable.

Quote
  Also, I wouldn't have guessed the Zeppelin Bend is very secure at all, but in fact it's more secure than any other bend I know even with light coming through the Zeppelin Bend.  Again, however, I will highlight that we are talking about fishing line here.
  I don't know how a Zeppelin Bend performs in angling situations, but at least in rope, the Double Fisherman's Knot is more secure, perhaps partially due to jamming tendencies storing spring energy that prevents loosening, and partially because of the way the final change of direction of the free ends butt up against each other in the mating plane of the knot.

Usually, people don't care much about security in angling knots, because common angling knots are overkill enough not to be prone to security issues.

Quote
Going back to my original point, if jamming is the same as security IN FISHING LINE, then does that knock out the Sheet Bend and the Zeppelin Bend for being good fishing knots?  Neither of these is known for jamming, which is something I do want to happen in a fishing line.
  Even if there are no security problems in common rope knots used in fishing line, what's going to knock them out is alternative knots common to angling that have real or perceived strength advantage.  Anglers don't want the big one to get away, and their stealthy, slim line plays close to the cliff of breaking strength.


Title: Re: Fishing Knots - Joining Lines
Post by: knot4u on June 23, 2010, 08:20:33 PM
Thank you for your input Roo.  I have a comment about one thing you wrote.

I don't know how a Zeppelin Bend performs in angling situations, but at least in rope, the Double Fisherman's Knot is more secure, perhaps partially due to jamming tendencies storing spring energy that prevents loosening, and partially because of the way the final change of direction of the free ends butt up against each other in the mating plane of the knot.

You may have typed that too fast for me to completely understand, or maybe I just disagree.

I've read reports from people who mountain climb about the Fisherman and the Double Fisherman.  Some climbers specifically don't like these knots because of their ability to jam and also slip (strangely) in extreme loadings.  On the other hand, I have NEVER heard about the Zeppelin Bend slipping.  So, I don't know how it's possible to get more secure than "never".
Title: Re: Fishing Knots - Joining Lines
Post by: roo on June 23, 2010, 08:25:56 PM
I don't know how a Zeppelin Bend performs in angling situations, but at least in rope, the Double Fisherman's Knot is more secure, perhaps partially due to jamming tendencies storing spring energy that prevents loosening, and partially because of the way the final change of direction of the free ends butt up against each other in the mating plane of the knot.

You may have typed that too fast for me to completely understand, or maybe I just disagree.

I've read reports from people who mountain climb about the Fisherman and the Double Fisherman.  Some climbers specifically don't like these knots because of their ability to jam and also slip (strangely) in extreme loadings.  On the other hand, I have NEVER heard about the Zeppelin Bend slipping.  So, I don't know how it's possible to get more secure than "never".

Please pass along the reports of slippage (sources, links).  

There are different modes of security.  The mode that tends to affect most knots in rope is shaking while the rope is slack, causing things to spring open (especially a problem in stiff, slippery rope).

Title: Re: Fishing Knots - Joining Lines
Post by: knot4u on June 23, 2010, 08:34:27 PM
I don't know how a Zeppelin Bend performs in angling situations, but at least in rope, the Double Fisherman's Knot is more secure, perhaps partially due to jamming tendencies storing spring energy that prevents loosening, and partially because of the way the final change of direction of the free ends butt up against each other in the mating plane of the knot.

You may have typed that too fast for me to completely understand, or maybe I just disagree.

I've read reports from people who mountain climb about the Fisherman and the Double Fisherman.  Some climbers specifically don't like these knots because of their ability to jam and also slip (strangely) in extreme loadings.  On the other hand, I have NEVER heard about the Zeppelin Bend slipping.  So, I don't know how it's possible to get more secure than "never".

Please pass along the reports of slippage (sources, links).  

There are different modes of security.  The mode that tends to affect most knots in rope is shaking while the rope is slack, causing things to spring open.



In that case, the word security get's rather complex.  A trucker tying down a load for his truck (lots of shaking) will have different considerations than a sailor connecting lines for an anchor (mostly load and less shaking).  I'd guess the security of the Zeppelin Bend outperforms most, or all, bends when the application is mostly load and less shaking.
Title: Re: Fishing Knots - Joining Lines
Post by: knot4u on June 23, 2010, 08:44:00 PM
I don't know how a Zeppelin Bend performs in angling situations, but at least in rope, the Double Fisherman's Knot is more secure, perhaps partially due to jamming tendencies storing spring energy that prevents loosening, and partially because of the way the final change of direction of the free ends butt up against each other in the mating plane of the knot.

You may have typed that too fast for me to completely understand, or maybe I just disagree.

I've read reports from people who mountain climb about the Fisherman and the Double Fisherman.  Some climbers specifically don't like these knots because of their ability to jam and also slip (strangely) in extreme loadings.  On the other hand, I have NEVER heard about the Zeppelin Bend slipping.  So, I don't know how it's possible to get more secure than "never".

Please pass along the reports of slippage (sources, links).  

This article analyzes slippage of the Overhand, the Double Overhand and the Figure 8 in extreme conditions:

http://www.needlesports.com/catalogue/content.aspx?con_id=75b7be92-45dd-474a-9229-9c9e00a60c7f

Abseiling is about as important as knots can possibly get.  Because the Fisherman and the Double Fisherman are in the same family, they too are not exempt from slipping.

As to the Zeppelin Bend, I just have not read anything about that knot slipping.  So, please provide a report there.
Title: Re: Fishing Knots - Joining Lines
Post by: roo on June 23, 2010, 08:58:42 PM

This article analyzes slippage of the Overhand, the Double Overhand and the Figure 8 in extreme conditions:

http://www.needlesports.com/catalogue/content.aspx?con_id=75b7be92-45dd-474a-9229-9c9e00a60c7f

Abseiling is about as important as knots can possibly get.  Because the Fisherman and the Double Fisherman are in the same family, they too are not exempt from slipping.

As to the Zeppelin Bend, I just have not read anything about that knot slipping.  So, please provide a report there.
I don't think you can extrapolate flipping in the European Death Knot to problems with the Double Fisherman.  Unless I'm missing something, the article seems to contrast the two, with the Double Fisherman being the safe "gold standard" that regrettably becomes difficult to untie:

This is against his "gold standard" of a Double Fisherman's Knot which broke the rope (at well over 1000kg) in every case, however sloppily it was tied
Title: Re: Fishing Knots - Joining Lines
Post by: knot4u on June 23, 2010, 09:24:52 PM
This guy thinks the Zeppelin Bend is more secure than the water knot, fisherman's knot, double fisherman's knot, carrick bend, and the rigger's or hunter's bend.

http://www.survivaltopics.com/survival/how-to-make-a-zeppelin-bend-knot/

Again, I have not heard reports about the Zeppelin Bend slipping.  I'm not saying the Zeppelin Bend doesn't slip.  I just have not read any such reports, not even from you (Roo).  So, I your statement about the Double Fisherman being more secure than the Zeppelin Bend is still unsupported by evidence.
Title: Re: Fishing Knots - Joining Lines
Post by: roo on June 23, 2010, 09:35:29 PM
 I just have not read any such reports, not even from you (Roo).  So, I your statement about the Double Fisherman being more secure than the Zeppelin Bend is still unsupported by evidence.

Under the vast majority of conditions, I don't expect either knot to just slip or slither (you can search this forum for teflon-coated floss knots for the exceptions).  The evidence I have of the Double Fisherman's Knot being more secure than the Zeppelin Bend is the slack shaking tests I have done in stiff, low-friction rope in which the Zeppelin Bend springs open and shakes apart before the Double Fisherman's Knot does so.

Title: Re: Fishing Knots - Joining Lines
Post by: knot4u on June 23, 2010, 09:49:00 PM
Here's the main article that made me start this thread.  This guy claims the Double Sheet Bend is useful in monofilaments, super lines, fly line, and also maintains 90% to 95% of strength.  That's incredible.

http://www.marinews.com/Double-Sheet-Bend-686.php

The same guy also claims the Uni Knot is at 75% to 80% of strength, which is great but still NOT as good as the Double Sheet Bend.

http://www.marinews.com/Double-Uni-Knot-267.php

 I just have not read any such reports, not even from you (Roo).  So, I your statement about the Double Fisherman being more secure than the Zeppelin Bend is still unsupported by evidence.

Under the vast majority of conditions, I don't expect either knot to just slip or slither (you can search this forum for teflon-coated floss knots for the exceptions).  The evidence I have of the Double Fisherman's Knot being more secure than the Zeppelin Bend is the slack shaking tests I have done in stiff, low-friction rope in which the Zeppelin Bend springs open and shakes apart before the Double Fisherman's Knot does so.

OK, fair enough, thanks
Title: Re: Fishing Knots - Joining Lines
Post by: roo on June 23, 2010, 10:43:39 PM
Here's the main article that made me start this thread.  This guy claims the Double Sheet Bend is useful in monofilaments, super lines, fly line, and also maintains 90% to 95% of strength.  That's incredible.

Conflicting results from more detailed data in different material should at least raise serious doubts:

http://www.caves.org/section/vertical/nh/50/knotrope.html
Title: Re: Fishing Knots - Joining Lines
Post by: knot4u on June 23, 2010, 11:05:22 PM
Here's the main article that made me start this thread.  This guy claims the Double Sheet Bend is useful in monofilaments, super lines, fly line, and also maintains 90% to 95% of strength.  That's incredible.

Conflicting results from more detailed data in different material should at least raise serious doubts:

http://www.caves.org/section/vertical/nh/50/knotrope.html

Thanks

It's too bad they didn't provide test results for the Overhand Bend, Figure Eight Bend and some other common bends for climbing/rappelling.
Title: Re: Fishing Knots - Joining Lines
Post by: Dan_Lehman on June 23, 2010, 11:29:59 PM
This thread has worsened from silly to seriously confused and misleading:
the notion of using Rosendahl's Zeppelin bend to join fishing lines is
ridiculous, on its face -- such lines want knots that jam secure and are strong;
I doubt Rosendahl's is going to do well at jamming or strength, here.

Now this chatter about "overhand knot" --something or other, but
so far an ambiguous name-- and Fisherman's knots being in the same
"family":  what ... ?!

The Offset Ring Bend (to use a name that shouldn't be ambiguous:
a Ring Bend loaded in the offset manner) can indeed both "slip" in the
sense of capsizing, aka "rolling"/"inverting"/"flyping", and jam (and so
produce a break, and strength data).  But this end-2-end joint is used
in circumstances where the forces that would lead to either behavior
are not going to be encountered (assuming that the knot is well tied).
Beyond this, there are some simple ways to make the knot secure
against flyping, such as putting a stopper in both tails or the proper one.

Quote
I'm finding that the properties of fishing Line are vastly different than the properties of rope.

How are you "finding" this?
(One could say the same thing about various fishing lines,
and various ropes and various tapes.)

Quote
As to the Zeppelin Bend, I just have not read anything about that knot slipping.
// On the other hand, I have NEVER heard about the Zeppelin Bend slipping.  So, I don't know how it's possible to get more secure than "never".

Do you know how it's possible to never read anything?
-- to have virtually never used something (and so never
writing about it)?!  Have you read reports of a Double Bowline slipping?
-- of Ashley's bends #1408, 1425, 1425a, 1452, or the Blood knot slipping?!
-- or even of the Fig.8 bend slipping?

I'll surmise that in HMPE (Dyneema/Spectra) rope that Rosendahl's bend
can slip, and will do so more than Ashley's #1408, 1425, 1425a, & 1452,
but this is surmise at this point.  As for the Grapevine bend (aka Dbl.Fish),
that has slipped in sheathed hi-mod cordage (apparently in test labs of
makers for HMPE, and in one Tom Moyer test w/Technora) --the core
pulling through--, and so a Double Grapevine (Trpl.Fish) is recommended.

Quote
A trucker tying down a load for his truck (lots of shaking) will have different considerations than a sailor connecting lines for an anchor (mostly load and less shaking).

I'm not sure that this is the right picture here:  a trucker's load will be set
in sufficient tension to hold it secure, devoid of movement; an anchor
rode will ebb & flow with variations of water flow, at times --not really
anything like shaking, though, but at least a change of tension.  Maybe
vibration (under tension) is something the truck line will endure,
which might figure on the holding of a friction knot.
Shaking, per se, is something the bend in a flag-pole line will
get, slapped against the pole (w/some tension).


Quote
This guy claims the Double Sheet Bend is useful in monofilaments, super lines, fly line, and also maintains 90% to 95% of strength.  That's incredible.

Indeed, "incredible" -- or "incredi-bull____" !    :P

One must wonder where this guy came up with such nonsense.
And one can point out to some rather simple reference to this
site w/o looking around; where one could also find this gem of
reiterated assertion (it is near verbatim of the '78? press item):
Quote
Tests conducted by the English showed the Hunter's Bend not to be as strong as the Blood Knot, however stronger than the fisherman's and sheet bends.
Now, work all that into the tiny span between 95% and 100%!
(I see his animation of SmitHunter's bend botches the first Overhand.)

In stark contrast to this misinformation, one will usually find the
strength of the Sheet Bend put at about 55%; in testing of 3 types
--7mm accessory, 10.5mm dynamic, & 12.7mm "static"-- of nylon
kernmantle ropes, Dave Richards found the Sheet & Dbl.S. to slip,
with strengths IIRC in the 50s% range.

Beyond that, though, the site's knot-tying advice seems sensible,
and I especially appreciate the urging to recycle tangled/used line
-- I have procured samples from just such a recycling bin (incl.
some Bimini Twists, for examination, and much line!).


--dl*
====
Title: Re: Fishing Knots - Joining Lines
Post by: knot4u on June 23, 2010, 11:43:18 PM
Dan, I appreciate your knowledge and detailed response, but wow this thread has gone off track.  I think I need to go to a fishing-specific site to answer the original three questions.  It wasn't until we got off track when the thread started getting active here. I'll admit these side ventures are entirely my fault because I took the thread off track in my second post.
Title: Re: Fishing Knots - Joining Lines
Post by: roo on June 24, 2010, 12:07:52 AM
1.  What knot do you prefer for joining fishing lines?

2.  Can I safely use two San Diego Jam knots, or two Improved Clinch knots, etc., for joining lines like I do with a Double Uni knot?  I've searched the Internet and have only seen the Uni knot used for multiple fishing needs, such as joining lines as well as attaching lures, etc.

3.  Do you use different knots to join monofilament, braided, fluorocarbon, etc.?  Or do you use the same knot for joining all types of fishing line?

1.  Blood or various modifications of the Uni-Knot, such as:
(http://www.everglades-fishing.com/everglades-fishing/images/knot1.jpg)

2.  Yes.

3.  You can use the same set of knots.  If you're unsure of a knot, why not test it in the fishing line you use?
Title: Re: Fishing Knots - Joining Lines
Post by: knot4u on June 24, 2010, 12:52:05 AM
Thanks Roo... I have tried out the "Double San Diego Jam" knot as a bend, but have never seen any discussion about this knot anywhere.  I figured there may have been a good reason.  I mostly see the Uni Knot and Blood Knot (or Double Improved Clinch) being discussed for multiple usages, but I see no reason why other similar knots don't receive similar attention.  By the way, my favorite fishing knot right now is the San Diego Jam.
Title: Re: Fishing Knots - Joining Lines
Post by: Transminator on June 24, 2010, 09:27:18 AM
Thanks Roo... I have tried out the "Double San Diego Jam" knot as a bend, but have never seen any discussion about this knot anywhere.  I figured there may have been a good reason.  I mostly see the Uni Knot and Blood Knot (or Double Improved Clinch) being discussed for multiple usages, but I see no reason why other similar knots don't receive similar attention.  By the way, my favorite fishing knot right now is the San Diego Jam.

First of all I have to agree with you about my previous remark regarding "obvious security" by just looking at a knot. That was a silly thing to do. I just felt so for the dbl sheet and the uni, but I tested them first and then thought, yes, its actually obvious when you look at them. But it can be misleading and the examples you gave are proof enough.

The site you mentioned lists the following:
Retained Breaking Strength:     90% to 95% for the (dbl) sheet bend
Retained Breaking Strength:     75% to 80% for the uni to uni

Ah ok. The dbl sheet bend goes easy on the rope, (because the rope is not so heavily bend and pinched?), but that is to no use, if the line slips, which it did in my tests.
I have yet to see the zeppelin or the uni to uni fail (line slipping) but I could imagine that the breaking strength of the rope is reduced more with the zeppelin, as the rope has several sharp turns to endure in the zeppelin bend.
Fishing line e.g. seemed to break more easily when bend with the zeppelin then with a double fisherman or uni to uni, but I still did not see it slip. For fishing line it is important though, that the line retains a good bit of breaking strength, therefore the zeppelin is out.
The knot wars tests were very convincing though, as it took a while before the uni to uni was beaten, which means first of all: it does not slip, but the breaking strenght remains considerably high. 
For fishing the dbl. sheet bend is out of the question, because it slips to easily and falls apart if there is no load on it (which is one of the advantages of it in other circumstances. The sheet bend (and dbl sheet bend) remain one of the standard knots in the German navy e.g. but I would not use it for abseiling.

I picked the uni (and the palomar) for fishing, as they are simple and very strong but I will have a look at the "new champion" the modified albright and your favorite the San Diego Jam, because I am a knot-nut and like to learn new knots.
Title: Re: Fishing Knots - Joining Lines
Post by: knot4u on June 24, 2010, 05:38:01 PM
OK, I change my mind about possibly using the Double Sheet Bend or the Zeppelin Bend for joining fishing lines.  However, it's not "ridiculous" or "silly" to pose the question and have the discussion.  That's why this is a discussion forum, and not a website for one-way information.  So, shame on you, Dan.  :P

The Zeppelin Bend first looked ridiculous and silly to me because sun shines through it.  But then I tested it out, and the Zeppelin Bend instantly changed my whole mindset about knots.  Recall that Ashley didn't put the Zeppelin Bend in his book.  Perhaps Ashley came across the Zeppelin Bend (before it was the Zeppelin Bend), but summarily dismissed the knot as a "ridiculous" and "silly" mistake.
Title: Re: Fishing Knots - Joining Lines
Post by: roo on June 24, 2010, 05:49:38 PM
The Zeppelin Bend first looked ridiculous and silly to me because sun shines through it.

Just to check:  You are firmly setting/working all bends in rope before using them, right?  I would hope that you could eliminate daylight shining through gaps in the bend in most cases.
Title: Re: Fishing Knots - Joining Lines
Post by: Dan_Lehman on June 24, 2010, 06:10:07 PM
First of all I have to agree with you about my previous remark regarding "obvious security" by just looking at a knot. That was a silly thing to do. I just felt so for the dbl sheet and the uni, but I tested them first and then thought, yes, its actually obvious when you look at them. But it can be misleading and the examples you gave are proof enough.

Bah!  It should be the case that such observations can be made
with confidence in at least some occasions.  In the one at hand,
you are right in re the Sheet bend vs. many other knots.

Quote
The site you mentioned lists the following:
Retained Breaking Strength:     90% to 95% for the (dbl) sheet bend
Retained Breaking Strength:     75% to 80% for the uni to uni

Ah ok. ...

 ???  Did you not read my post, in which the claim of supposed
strength of the Sheet bend was examined?!  --nothing "ok"
about it at all:  it is QUITE contrary ALL other evidence!  AND
contradicted by other information presented (by echo) on the site.
Moreover, for anyone familiar with knots it should be strikingly dubious
(along with your correct thinking about security).


Quote
The knot wars tests were very convincing though, as it took a while before the uni to uni was beaten, ...

Do you have a URLink for these tests?
Do they show the actual tied & tested knots, so one can
see what they're testing (as opposed to some other source's take
on what the knot should be).  In the case of the Uni knot, I've
found quite clear images of the before-setting form, but that of
the set tight form is shown in only crude appearance, which
seems generally to be a sort of Multi-Strangle form,
but that implies a significant transformation from the clear form shown.

Quote
The sheet bend (and dbl sheet bend) remain one of the standard knots in the German navy e.g. but I would not use it for abseiling.

Those who might use such end-2-end knots in that case would do so
with Strangle knots tying off the ends; the main knot would be
chosen for ease of untying (and possibly for different-diameter ropes).

Quote
I picked the uni (and the palomar) for fishing, as they are simple and very strong but I will have a look at the "new champion" the modified albright and your favorite the San Diego Jam, because I am a knot-nut and like to learn new knots.

Except that in the "gel-spun" (HMPE) line, the Palomar isn't so strong;
many older knots come up short and are replaced with ones with
more turns or length or used with "double"s -- i.e., long eyes of
a (still strong) Bimini Twist.  Btw, the Palomar is presented variously
in >>three<< dressings:  that end bight left around the hook shaft,
or moved up to surround the body of the knot (specifically stated
e.g. by Lefty Kreh, noted fishing author), or pushed farther up to
surround the SPart (e.g. by Geoffrey Budworth), making the the
knot a sort of eye-secured Half-Hitch, Pile Hitch noose.

--dl*
====
Title: Re: Fishing Knots - Joining Lines
Post by: Dan_Lehman on June 24, 2010, 06:37:09 PM
1.  What knot do you prefer for joining fishing lines?

1.  Blood or various modifications of the Uni-Knot, such as:

Have any of you actually tied a Uni-knot?  Do you have a good
idea of what that tiny squiggle shown in the cited (and every other
I've found) presentation is supposed to be -- you know, the actual
knot geometry that meets the Real World!?

For I have, and have had failure so far to achieve the form of
a (multiple-)Strangle in monofilament of moderate strength
(I'll guess 30-50#?  --maybe less; I don't have a good feel for it).
I found some thinner line and in it got the transformation I'd
expected.  Given one author's assertion that the knot can be
set tightly enough to be a fairly effective fixed eyeknot,
it must be the case that the Strangle-knot form is intended,
for simply hauling bunch of turns tight with a to-be-loaded
SPart pulling through them to the end turn couldn't be expected
to grip & hold.  Some presentations show a mid-transformation
state that is that of going to Strangle form.

But I have seen some commentary that suggests that the above
transformation isn't so readily achieved.  In my efforts (a few
attempts, though --come to think of it, dry line), I got
an Overhand twist of end & SPart at the away end and
this didn't work into and become surrounded by the multiple
wraps.

One might suspect that some different opinions/results on the
knot could arise from this difference in formation -- and the
vague imagery provided in the knot's presentation sadly does
nothing to resolve it.

Quote
Quote
2.  Can I safely use two San Diego Jam knots, or two Improved Clinch knots, etc.,
 for joining lines like I do with a Double Uni knot? ...

2.  Yes.

 ???  I'm looking at this:   www.marlinnut.com/knots/sandiego.shtml (http://www.marlinnut.com/knots/sandiego.shtml)
Please show me how to ring hitches can be used reasonably
qua end-2-end joints?!  The Uni knot is well suited to abut something
under load, but I don't see the ring hitches above as being so.
(And I can see one dressing the knot so that it was only the
ring-proximate parts of these hitches that involved the other
hitch, the away parts being beyond such overlap.)

Quote
Quote
3.  Do you use different knots to join monofilament, braided, fluorocarbon, etc.?
Or do you use the same knot for joining all types of fishing line?

3.  You can use the same set of knots.  If you're unsure of a knot, why not test it in the fishing line you use?

The sources I've seen present fishing knots as often particular
to circumstances, such as line type; this is especially true for the
newer, "gel-spun" lines of HMPE, which is very slippery and
strong.  And there are special knots for joining dissimilar lines
(typically of different diameters).

--dl*
====
Title: Re: Fishing Knots - Joining Lines
Post by: knot4u on June 24, 2010, 06:43:39 PM
The Zeppelin Bend first looked ridiculous and silly to me because sun shines through it.

Just to check:  You are firmly setting/working all bends in rope before using them, right?  I would hope that you could eliminate daylight shining through gaps in the bend in most cases.

In big thick rope, I have found that light comes through the Zeppelin Bend no matter how hard I pull.  The knot, nevertheless, still works great.
Title: Re: Fishing Knots - Joining Lines
Post by: knot4u on June 24, 2010, 06:46:18 PM
Dan, that's a little too verbose for me.  Did you answer the original three questions somewhere in there?  I'm not saying you must.  I'm saying I DO value your opinion, even you're kind of a dick, and I mean that in the nicest possible way.  ;)
Title: Re: Fishing Knots - Joining Lines
Post by: roo on June 24, 2010, 07:25:42 PM
1.  What knot do you prefer for joining fishing lines?

1.  Blood or various modifications of the Uni-Knot, such as:

Have any of you actually tied a Uni-knot?
??? Yes.
Quote
 Do you have a good
idea of what that tiny squiggle shown in the cited (and every other
I've found) presentation is supposed to be -- you know, the actual
knot geometry that meets the Real World!?
I don't know what you're referring to.  It's been clear enough for me.  I'm sorry you're having problems.

Quote
Please show me how to ring hitches can be used reasonably
qua end-2-end joints?!
 The same way any hitch can be hitched to the belly of another hitch.  I'm not a regular user of the knot in question, but it certainly can be done.  It's not like the San Diego Jam Knot is tied on the bight.

Quote
The sources I've seen present fishing knots as often particular
to circumstances, such as line type; this is especially true for the
newer, "gel-spun" lines of HMPE, which is very slippery and
strong.
 
Some people may have opinions on what is best suited for a particular line, but the question was one of possibility.  And it is possible to use common angling knots among a wide spectrum of fishing line.  Some line may require more or less coils of the basic knot structure to suit friction requirements.
Title: Re: Fishing Knots - Joining Lines
Post by: roo on June 24, 2010, 07:30:02 PM
In big thick rope, I have found that light comes through the Zeppelin Bend no matter how hard I pull.  The knot, nevertheless, still works great.
Do you also try to smash the collars tighter as you pull on the various ends of the bend?
Title: Re: Fishing Knots - Joining Lines
Post by: knot4u on June 24, 2010, 08:12:55 PM
In big thick rope, I have found that light comes through the Zeppelin Bend no matter how hard I pull.  The knot, nevertheless, still works great.
Do you also try to smash the collars tighter as you pull on the various ends of the bend?

I just tried on some nylon rope that's stiff and not even that thick.  Daylight still comes through a little, but I like that.  For this particular application, I will be untying the knot, and a tight bend is neither necessary nor desired.
Title: Re: Fishing Knots - Joining Lines
Post by: roo on June 24, 2010, 08:21:34 PM
I just tried on some nylon rope that's stiff and not even that thick.  Daylight still comes through a little, but I like that.  For this particular application, I will be untying the knot, and a tight bend is neither necessary nor desired.

Actually, if you fail to set it and leave the Zeppelin Bend too loose, there is a small but real chance that the bend may change forms into a jammable distortion with certain types of rope.

Title: Re: Fishing Knots - Joining Lines
Post by: knot4u on June 24, 2010, 09:12:41 PM
I just tried on some nylon rope that's stiff and not even that thick.  Daylight still comes through a little, but I like that.  For this particular application, I will be untying the knot, and a tight bend is neither necessary nor desired.

Actually, if you fail to set it and leave the Zeppelin Bend too loose, there is a small but real chance that the bend may change forms into a jammable distortion with certain types of rope.



I don't know what kind of rope and/or strength with which you're working.  No matter how tight I get the Zeppelin Bend, after the knot is dressed completely tight, when I then put a strong load on the standing ends, daylight ALWAYS comes through at least a tiny bit.  I have no problem with this.  Other bends, such as the Overhand Bend and many other bends, will not have daylight coming through when a strong load is placed on the standing ends.  It's just the nature of the various knots and doesn't seem to affect performance either way from what I can tell.
Title: Re: Fishing Knots - Joining Lines
Post by: roo on June 24, 2010, 09:16:44 PM
I'm not really sure what kind of rope and/or strength with which you're working.  No matter how tight I get the Zeppelin Bend, after the knot is dressed completely, when I then put a strong load on the standing ends, daylight has ALWAYS come through at least a little. 
As long as you are setting it as you would other bends, you'll be fine.  It's the effort that counts.   I was just making sure you weren't being too lax. :)
Title: Re: Fishing Knots - Joining Lines
Post by: jcsampson on June 25, 2010, 12:01:32 AM
Quote from: roo
"I would hope that you could eliminate daylight shining through gaps . . . in most cases."

I recommend also the adequate tightening of all knots on almost all occasions. My Zeppelin Bends are generally gap-free.

If I were to use big, twisted, polypropylene rope, then there might necessarily be gaps through which daylight can shine . . . but the knot will still be tight.

Quote
"Actually, if you fail to set it and leave the Zeppelin Bend too loose, there is a small but real chance that the bend may change forms into a jammable distortion with certain types of rope."

I recommend the adequate tightening of all knots on almost all occasions. Quite frankly, when folks talk about problems with the Bowline, all I can think is, "They probably didn't tighten it properly." If you don't tighten it properly, then you didn't make it properly, and you cannot expect it to work "as advertised."

JCS
Title: Re: Fishing Knots - Joining Lines
Post by: Dan_Lehman on June 25, 2010, 06:16:48 AM

Do you have a good idea of what that tiny squiggle shown in the cited
(and every other I've found) presentation is supposed to be -- you know,
the actual knot geometry that meets the Real World!?

I don't know what you're referring to.  It's been clear enough for me.  I'm sorry you're having problems.

If the cryptic images of the Uni knot are clear to you,
how can my question not be?  I even explained it:  that some
of the text implies that a (multi-)Strangle is expected, but it's
not something I've been able to coax out of one fishing line,
though did achieve it in a thinner one.  The commonly seen
images of the Uni Knot show as the last clear image (the final
being a mere "squiggle", in my words) is what one might
call a Reverse (multi-) Anchor Bend.

Quote
Quote
Please show me how to ring hitches can be used reasonably
qua end-2-end joints?!
The same way any hitch can be hitched to the belly of another hitch.
I'm not a regular user of the knot in question, but it certainly can be done.

I did say "reasonably"; theoretically I understand, and in this
case quickly dismiss as A Bad Thing.

--dl*
====
Title: Re: Fishing Knots - Joining Lines
Post by: Transminator on June 25, 2010, 09:28:11 AM

Bah!  It should be the case that such observations can be made
with confidence in at least some occasions.  In the one at hand,
you are right in re the Sheet bend vs. many other knots.

True, but I think we both agree that the proof of the pudding is in the eating.

???  Did you not read my post, in which the claim of supposed
strength of the Sheet bend was examined?!  --nothing "ok"
about it at all:  it is QUITE contrary ALL other evidence!  AND
contradicted by other information presented (by echo) on the site.
Moreover, for anyone familiar with knots it should be strikingly dubious
(along with your correct thinking about security).

I did read your post.
Whether the alleged percentages for breaking strength are correct or incorrect,
I can't tell and also have my doubts about them.
I was trying to point out though that retained breaking strength of one
knot may be high, it does not necessarily mean higher overall security of that knot.
In particular the sheet bend seems to slip before it breaks, but the zeppelin rather
breaks before it slips, at least in my experience.

Do you have a URLink for these tests?

Have a look here.
http://www.versus.com/fishing/videos/#browser (http://www.versus.com/fishing/videos/#browser) (type: "knot wars" in the search bar)

They did not show a close up of the tied knot, but they showed how each knot is properly tied,
they tried it with 3 common types of fishing line and repeated each test several times.
They also seem to know what they are doing and you expect them to tie the knots they present correctly.
Do I have ultimate proof of that? No.

Those who might use such end-2-end knots in that case would do so
with Strangle knots tying off the ends; the main knot would be
chosen for ease of untying (and possibly for different-diameter ropes).

Does not make sense to me. 1. why not use a better knot in the first place (that has the quality of being secure AND ease of untying) like the zeppelin e.g. ?
2. If you use a sheet bend for ease of untying and then back it up with strangle knots (which jam so hard that a marlins pike runs home crying) the ease of untying is gone.

Except that in the "gel-spun" (HMPE) line, the Palomar isn't so strong;

Then I would use the uni instead of the Palomar, which is also good for that purpose.
Title: Re: Fishing Knots - Joining Lines
Post by: roo on June 25, 2010, 02:44:35 PM
Quote
The same way any hitch can be hitched to the belly of another hitch.
I'm not a regular user of the knot in question, but it certainly can be done.

I did say "reasonably"; theoretically I understand, and in this
case quickly dismiss as A Bad Thing.
It's so unreasonable and bad because...?  Please be specific.

It's not going to be the strongest option (which is why I encourage common angling options), but it's tyable.  If he has another method of implementation that's stronger, all the better.
Title: Re: Fishing Knots - Joining Lines
Post by: Dan_Lehman on June 25, 2010, 06:16:00 PM
Whether the alleged percentages for breaking strength are correct or incorrect,
I can't tell and also have my doubts about them.
I was trying to point out though that retained breaking strength of one
knot may be high, it does not necessarily mean higher overall security of that knot.
In particular the sheet bend seems to slip before it breaks, but the zeppelin rather
breaks before it slips, at least in my experience.

In this case, I disagree:  we can tell -- the knots at issue are ancient,
and if they had anywhere near this alleged breaking strength we
wouldn't be learning about it all of a sudden only in the 21st century!
Moreover, one can't posit the knot as insecure and accept a high
breaking strength -- it has to hold in order to break.  And fishing
line does not make for greater, rather lesser, security.


Quote
Have a look here.
http://www.versus.com/fishing/videos/#browser (http://www.versus.com/fishing/videos/#browser) (type: "knot wars" in the search bar)

They did not show a close up of the tied knot, but they showed how each knot is properly tied,
they tried it with 3 common types of fishing line and repeated each test several times.
They also seem to know what they are doing and you expect them to tie the knots they present correctly.
Do I have ultimate proof of that? No.

Thanks.  As for knowing what they're doing, well, hmmm,
that impression is given at times by some hilariously botched
presentations, but I'll hope that they do.

Quote
Those who might use such end-2-end knots in that case would do so
with Strangle knots tying off the ends; the main knot would be
chosen for ease of untying (and possibly for different-diameter ropes).

Does not make sense to me. 1. why not use a better knot in the first place (that has the quality of being secure AND ease of untying) like the zeppelin e.g. ?
2. If you use a sheet bend for ease of untying and then back it up with strangle knots (which jam so hard that a marlins pike runs home crying) the ease of untying is gone.

Your supposed "better" knot isn't proven to be all so secure
in the case of contact w/rock and wouldn't be trusted.
(Here is a good cue for Agent_Smith to re-surface and tell
of his further adventures at promoting that e2e joint to the
SAR/climbing world!).  And the Strangles would hardly be
so tight as you fear (!! --indeed, I've heard of folks having
them come loose, even (!?)), as they are only loaded by hand
in setting, and secure the Sheet bend's tails, that's all; ease
of untying is present.

Quote
Except that in the "gel-spun" (HMPE) line, the Palomar isn't so strong;

Then I would use the Uni instead of the Palomar, which is also good for that purpose.

Hmmm, I don't see the Uni in Geoff Wilson's small pamphlet on
tying Gel-spun lines; but I do see his note that the Blood knot broke
as such low loads (40%) that he stopped further testing/listing of it
in an appendix of various results:  the Uni seems rather like the
Blood in geometry.  And the bump in strength from the Palomar
to Triple P. of about 12%-pt.s came from the triple-turns on
the ring; he uses a similar thing with the Uni --although names
the structure "Collar & Capstan", and makes no comment about
it being tantamount to a Uni, and ties it directly into Strangle
form using a helper eye to pull tail up through wraps--
and boasts about an 85% or better strength.

It really is irritating to have authors present knots that are
--though not clearly stated, but by apparent presentation--
the same as others, but the similarity isn't remarked/confirmed!?
(Were it confirmed, the image from one knot could help in
guiding the tying of the other; it could further inform the reader.)

As I think Knot4U remarked, he'd never guess that the Palomar
would be so strong; I've had the same puzzlement, if not for
absolute strength, then, for relative strengths --i.e., I cannot
figure why one knot is stronger than this other, and so on,
given appearances.  Partly this must be due to the failure of
the presentation to show even the final image, or what the
geometry becomes on loading --though we can note that
with angling knots, one is often setting them to a fairly
high percentage of tensile strength (I think Barnes, who got
to test the new-fangled at that time nylon monofilament,
opined that about 60% tensile loading was needed for
optimal results):  which means that the set geometry
should be pretty near the at-rupture geometry.
(In contrast, we meager humans setting even skinny climbing
ropes come nowhere near to full-load force, let alone breaking
forces.)

Here's such a mystery:  an end-2-end joint recommended as
very strong, for gel-spun line, is joining two Bimini Twists
in a "Cat's Paw Splice" --which is just the repeated making
of a sort of "Girth hitch" around-&-through-&<repeat> weaving
of eye-&-eye.  With ten such interweavings, who would think
that the eyes would be where the break would occur?  --after all,
those eye strands individually need share only 50% of the force,
whereas the eyeknots have 100% on a single strand!  But, as
per Wilson, increasing from ten can gain strength, so it must be
in the wraps that the break occurs.  And this is at about 90%
of listed break strength (which is typically understated).

--dl*
====
Title: Re: Fishing Knots - Joining Lines
Post by: Dan_Lehman on June 26, 2010, 06:19:36 AM
I don't know what kind of rope and/or strength with which you're working.  No matter how tight I get the Zeppelin Bend, after the knot is dressed completely tight, when I then put a strong load on the standing ends, daylight ALWAYS comes through at least a tiny bit.

Yes, as the SParts press against the collars.  But I've just gotten
the knot to jam in 1/4" shock cord, and there's very little light
coming though.  Which I regard as a good thing; I'm not
sure how far I'd trust this jammed knot to stay tied, but it's looking
pretty good at the moment; I have no concerns about being able
to loosen & untie it --that will be simple enough.  I can get this
result by deliberate dressing of Ashley's Bend #1452, but that
knot is nowhere near so neatly compact is Rosendahl's.

--dl*
====
Title: Re: Fishing Knots - Joining Lines
Post by: knot4u on June 29, 2010, 04:16:14 PM
Please pass along the reports of slippage (sources, links).  

There are different modes of security.  The mode that tends to affect most knots in rope is shaking while the rope is slack, causing things to spring open (especially a problem in stiff, slippery rope).

According to this source, the security of the double fisherman fails in high strength, slippery cord.
http://www.xmission.com/~tmoyer/testing/High_Strength_Cord.pdf

"Dyneema/Spectra's very high lubricity leads to poor knot holding ability, and has led to the recommendation to use the triple fisherman's knot [rather than the traditional double fisherman's knot] in 6mm Dyneema core cord to avoid a particular failure mechanism of the double fisherman's, where first the sheath fails at the knot, then the core slips through."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_fisherman%27s_knot#Security

That wikipedia entry recommends the Triple Fisherman where the Double Fisherman fails.  I call B.S.  Where the Double Fisherman fails, I'd be going with an entirely different bend approach.
Title: Re: Fishing Knots - Joining Lines
Post by: roo on June 29, 2010, 04:34:41 PM
According to this source, the security of the double fisherman fails in high strength, slippery cord.
http://www.xmission.com/~tmoyer/testing/High_Strength_Cord.pdf

"Dyneema/Spectra's very high lubricity leads to poor knot holding ability, and has led to the recommendation to use the triple fisherman's knot [rather than the traditional double fisherman's knot] in 6mm Dyneema core cord to avoid a particular failure mechanism of the double fisherman's, where first the sheath fails at the knot, then the core slips through."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_fisherman%27s_knot#Security

That wikipedia entry recommends the Triple Fisherman where the Double Fisherman fails.  I call B.S.  Where the Double Fisherman fails, I'd be going with an entirely different bend approach.
I think you may be misinterpreting strength findings.  Look at page 3:

For a double fisherman's knot, Gemini and Titan share an interesting failure mode.
The sheath breaks at the knot and the slippery core unties, pulling through the sheath. When a triple fisherman's
knot is tied, this does not happen. The strength gain for the triple fisherman's is not large, but it is enough to
change the mechanism.


The failure mode they're talking about is merely the mode of breaking with a small or "not large" strength change that one might expect anyway by using more rope.  This is not a security issue with slippage, it's what happens after the rope ruptures.

As I said before, the security issue with slick stiff rope and this knot is the possibility of things springing open, not slither or slipping.  
Title: Re: Fishing Knots - Joining Lines
Post by: knot4u on June 29, 2010, 04:58:28 PM
According to this source, the security of the double fisherman fails in high strength, slippery cord.
http://www.xmission.com/~tmoyer/testing/High_Strength_Cord.pdf

"Dyneema/Spectra's very high lubricity leads to poor knot holding ability, and has led to the recommendation to use the triple fisherman's knot [rather than the traditional double fisherman's knot] in 6mm Dyneema core cord to avoid a particular failure mechanism of the double fisherman's, where first the sheath fails at the knot, then the core slips through."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_fisherman%27s_knot#Security

That wikipedia entry recommends the Triple Fisherman where the Double Fisherman fails.  I call B.S.  Where the Double Fisherman fails, I'd be going with an entirely different bend approach.
I think you may be misinterpreting strength findings.  Look at page 3:

For a double fisherman's knot, Gemini and Titan share an interesting failure mode.
The sheath breaks at the knot and the slippery core unties, pulling through the sheath. When a triple fisherman's
knot is tied, this does not happen. The strength gain for the triple fisherman's is not large, but it is enough to
change the mechanism.


The failure mode they're talking about is merely the mode of breaking with a small or "not large" strength change that one might expect anyway by using more rope.  This is not a security issue with slippage, it's what happens after the rope ruptures.

As I said before, the security issue with slick stiff rope and this knot is the possibility of things springing open, not slither or slipping.  

I hear you, but a failure is a failure.  The technicalities don't matter to the user when it happens.  I have to wonder if the same failure would happen if a Zeppelin Bend were used in the same test.  That's the important question.
Title: Re: Fishing Knots - Joining Lines
Post by: roo on June 29, 2010, 05:04:33 PM
I hear you, but a failure is a failure.  The technicalities don't matter to the user when it happens.  I have to wonder if the same failure would happen if a Zeppelin Bend were used in the same test.  That's the important question.
I'm not sure why it would matter what happens after the rope ruptures if the overall strength is comparable to other knots.

When a knot breaks, it breaks.  I'm interested in what the strength percentage is, not what dance the rope does or does not do afterward.

Title: Re: Fishing Knots - Joining Lines
Post by: knot4u on June 29, 2010, 05:35:21 PM
I hear you, but a failure is a failure.  The technicalities don't matter to the user when it happens.  I have to wonder if the same failure would happen if a Zeppelin Bend were used in the same test.  That's the important question.
I'm not sure why it would matter what happens after the rope ruptures if the overall strength is comparable to other knots.

When a knot breaks, it breaks.  I'm interested in what the strength percentage is, not what dance the rope does or does not do afterward.



It seems that that the Zeppelin Bend doesn't put as much stress on a rope as does the Double Fisherman.  The angles in the Zeppelin Bend are not as extreme.  So, perhaps the rope failure wouldn't happen in the first place.  I don't know, but again I'd be interested to know if the Zeppelin Bend would cause the rope to fail in the same manner.  I understand that you're not interested, and that's fine.  I am.
Title: Re: Fishing Knots - Joining Lines
Post by: roo on June 29, 2010, 05:44:51 PM
It seems that that the Zeppelin Bend doesn't put as much stress on a rope as does the Double Fisherman.  The angles in the Zeppelin Bend are not as extreme.  So, perhaps the rope failure wouldn't happen in the first place.  I don't know, but again I'd be interested to know if the Zeppelin Bend would cause the rope to fail in the same manner.  I understand that you're not interested, and that's fine.  I am.
But the very report you cited shows on page 5 how the Double Fisherman's Knot is nearly as strong as the Triple Fisherman's Knot which is well respected for strength!

In the strength arena, it doesn't make sense to say that you'd prefer a weaker knot (Zeppelin in this case) to a stronger knot just because the stronger knot has an unusual behavior after rupture.
Title: Re: Fishing Knots - Joining Lines
Post by: knot4u on June 29, 2010, 06:15:35 PM
It seems that that the Zeppelin Bend doesn't put as much stress on a rope as does the Double Fisherman.  The angles in the Zeppelin Bend are not as extreme.  So, perhaps the rope failure wouldn't happen in the first place.  I don't know, but again I'd be interested to know if the Zeppelin Bend would cause the rope to fail in the same manner.  I understand that you're not interested, and that's fine.  I am.
But the very report you cited shows on page 5 how the Double Fisherman's Knot is nearly as strong as the Triple Fisherman's Knot which is well respected for strength!

In the strength arena, it doesn't make sense to say that you'd prefer a weaker knot (Zeppelin in this case) to a stronger knot just because the stronger knot has an unusual behavior after rupture.

How is the Triple Fisherman a stronger knot than the Zeppelin Bend?  I haven't seen any evidence.

I'm not even convinced the Triple Fisherman is more secure generally.  I'm not referring to your shake test.  I mean brute force pulling in slippery rope.
Title: Re: Fishing Knots - Joining Lines
Post by: roo on June 29, 2010, 06:23:51 PM
How is the Triple Fisherman a stronger knot than the Zeppelin Bend?  I haven't seen any evidence.

I'm not even convinced the Triple Fisherman is more secure generally.  I'm not referring to your shake test.  I mean brute force pulling in slippery rope.
You're avoiding the issue.  Why would you judge strength not by percentages of rope strength but by irrelevant behavior after rupture?

The tests you cited made no mention of slipping before rupture.  Slipping after rupture isn't a security issue.
Title: Re: Fishing Knots - Joining Lines
Post by: knot4u on June 29, 2010, 06:34:13 PM
How is the Triple Fisherman a stronger knot than the Zeppelin Bend?  I haven't seen any evidence.

I'm not even convinced the Triple Fisherman is more secure generally.  I'm not referring to your shake test.  I mean brute force pulling in slippery rope.
You're avoiding the issue.  Why would you judge strength not by percentages of rope strength but by irrelevant behavior after rupture?

The tests you cited made no mention of slipping before rupture.  Slipping after rupture isn't a security issue.

I'm right at the issue that I original brought up.

According to the test in the source I cited above, "The sheath breaks at the knot and the slippery core unties, pulling the sheath through."

That is, the sheath breaks at the Double Fisherman Bend.  I'm wondering if that same sheath would break at the Zeppelin Bend in the first place.  That brought up my comment about how the Zeppelin Bend may be easier on the rope than is the Double Fisherman Bend.  I don't know, but would like to know.

Title: Re: Fishing Knots - Joining Lines
Post by: roo on June 29, 2010, 06:39:18 PM
I'm right at the issue that I original brought up.
In response to my request for reports of slippage, you cited an article that showed no slippage before rupture.
Title: Re: Fishing Knots - Joining Lines
Post by: knot4u on June 29, 2010, 06:47:28 PM
I'm right at the issue that I original brought up.
In response to my request for reports of slippage, you cited an article that showed no slippage before rupture.

I'd classify the issue in the report as being a security issue.  The definition of security is the ability of a rope to resist slippage.  Thus, there's the link to your question about slippage.  Anyway, the important thing to me is that there is a failure in the Double Fisherman Bend, as I explained above.  The failure is a security issue and/or strength issue.  Whatever you want to call it, there is an issue.

Again, I'm wondering if the Zeppelin Bend would have the same failure in the same test.  You may continue to argue your point.  However, I'm primarily concerned with that sentence I put in bold right there.
Title: Re: Fishing Knots - Joining Lines
Post by: roo on June 29, 2010, 06:57:58 PM

I'd classify the issue in the report as being a security issue.  The definition of security is the ability of a rope to resist slippage.
Not after rupture.  After rupture, it's game over.  Once a rope ruptures and begins (in that split second) losing cross-sectional material, there's no going back.

I'm done trying to think of different ways to explain this.  Security issues only apply before rupture.  It shouldn't need to be said.

Title: Re: Fishing Knots - Joining Lines
Post by: knot4u on June 29, 2010, 07:05:51 PM

I'd classify the issue in the report as being a security issue.  The definition of security is the ability of a rope to resist slippage.
Not after rupture.  After rupture, it's game over.  Once a rope ruptures and begins (in that split second) losing cross-sectional material, there's no going back.

I'm done trying to think of different ways to explain this.  Security issues only apply before rupture.  It shouldn't need to be said.

Well damn, if a person is going to use that type of rope and if it is known that the Zeppelin Bend won't cause a rupture in that type of rope, I would think the user of that rope would want to know such information about the Zeppelin Bend.

This is the "Practical Knots" Forum, not the "The Theoretical Parameters for Knots" Forum.
Title: Re: Fishing Knots - Joining Lines
Post by: knot4u on June 29, 2010, 07:08:25 PM
I still haven't seen evidence of how the Triple Fisherman Bend is stronger than the Zeppelin Bend.  Above, Roo, you state that like it's a given:

In the strength arena, it doesn't make sense to say that you'd prefer a weaker knot (Zeppelin in this case) to a stronger knot just because the stronger knot has an unusual behavior after rupture.

I'd guess the Zeppelin Bend is stronger because the angles within the knot are knot as extreme.
Title: Re: Fishing Knots - Joining Lines
Post by: roo on June 29, 2010, 07:10:51 PM

Well damn, if a person is going to use that type of rope and if it is known that the Zeppelin Bend won't cause a rupture in that type of rope, I would think the user of that rope would want to know such information about the Zeppelin Bend.

Won't cause a rupture?

All knots eventually rupture in any rope.   No rope is indestructable.  No knot can be stronger than the rope.  These rupture issues are all questions of strength percentages, not security, not slippage.  
Title: Re: Fishing Knots - Joining Lines
Post by: knot4u on June 29, 2010, 07:17:39 PM

Well damn, if a person is going to use that type of rope and if it is known that the Zeppelin Bend won't cause a rupture in that type of rope, I would think the user of that rope would want to know such information about the Zeppelin Bend.

Won't cause a rupture?

All knots eventually rupture in any rope.   No rope is indestructable.  No knot can be stronger than the rope.  These rupture issues are all questions of strength percentages, not security, not slippage.  

I don't care what label you put on it.  Call it "all of the above" if you want.  For about the third time, I don't care what you call the issue.  There is an issue.  There is a rupture difference between the knots (Double Fisherman Bend and Zeppelin Bend).  I would like to know about this difference.  Sheesh, this place is impossible.
Title: Re: Fishing Knots - Joining Lines
Post by: roo on June 29, 2010, 07:28:01 PM
 There is a rupture difference between the knots (Double Fisherman Bend and Zeppelin Bend).  I would like to know about this difference.  Sheesh, this place is impossible.

Repeating your secondary question on strength ad nauseum won't answer it.  The reports than analyze the strength of Double & Triple Fisherman Knots typically do not analyze the strength percentage of the Zeppelin bend in the same set of tests (or at all).

I would have you look at p. 51-52 of this document for even more info on the Double & Triple Fisherman's, however:
http://www.speleo-bg.com/images/stories/pdf/rope1.pdf
Title: Re: Fishing Knots - Joining Lines
Post by: knot4u on June 29, 2010, 08:19:07 PM
 There is a rupture difference between the knots (Double Fisherman Bend and Zeppelin Bend).  I would like to know about this difference.  Sheesh, this place is impossible.

Repeating your secondary question on strength ad nauseum won't answer it.  The reports than analyze the strength of Double & Triple Fisherman Knots typically do not analyze the strength percentage of the Zeppelin bend in the same set of tests (or at all).

I would have you look at p. 51-52 of this document for even more info on the Double & Triple Fisherman's, however:
http://www.speleo-bg.com/images/stories/pdf/rope1.pdf

So, you have no evidence on whether the Zeppelin Bend is weaker than the Double Fisherman Bend.  You did make that assertion above.
Title: Re: Fishing Knots - Joining Lines
Post by: roo on June 29, 2010, 08:33:23 PM
 There is a rupture difference between the knots (Double Fisherman Bend and Zeppelin Bend).  I would like to know about this difference.  Sheesh, this place is impossible.

Repeating your secondary question on strength ad nauseum won't answer it.  The reports than analyze the strength of Double & Triple Fisherman Knots typically do not analyze the strength percentage of the Zeppelin bend in the same set of tests (or at all).

I would have you look at p. 51-52 of this document for even more info on the Double & Triple Fisherman's, however:
http://www.speleo-bg.com/images/stories/pdf/rope1.pdf

So, you have no evidence on whether the Zeppelin Bend is weaker than the Double Fisherman Bend.  You did make that assertion above.
Someone did some very limited tests and found that the Zeppelin Bend was weaker than the Flemish (Figure Eight) bend:

Now in my other Zeppelin bend thread, Pulling a Zeppelin bend to failure... I did break it. Since I don't have a way to break test non-knotted rope, I can only go by the manufacturer's published MBS for 10mm PMI of 6070 lbs. That reduces the strength of the rope to about 63% of the rope's MBS.

Since I couldn't measure the non-knot break strength of the rope, I decided to at least pull an F8 bend for comparison. It broke at about 66% of the ropes MBS.

66% seems a bit low for an F8 bend though. That would suggest that the break strength, 63%, of the ZB may be a bit low too.  
http://www.treebuzz.com/forum/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=228120&page=0&fpart=all&vc=1

And the speleo link noted that the Double Fisherman's Knot was "noticably" stronger than the Flemish Bend.

Title: Re: Fishing Knots - Joining Lines
Post by: knot4u on June 29, 2010, 09:24:57 PM
Since we're comparing the Zeppelin Bend to the Double/Triple Fisherman Bend, we might as well be comparing the Double/Triple Zeppelin Bend instead.

Discussions about strength are always a bit hokie.  There are always a few variables that are conveniently ignored for the sake of continuing the discussion.
Title: Re: Fishing Knots - Joining Lines
Post by: jcsampson on June 29, 2010, 10:27:17 PM
Quote from: knot4u
"Sheesh, this place is impossible."

They told me that what survives in the end is the good stuff.

I hope that helps.

JCS
Title: Re: Fishing Knots - Joining Lines
Post by: knot4u on June 29, 2010, 11:41:05 PM
EDIT:  After some testing, I'm finding the Zeppelin Bend to be as good as, or better than, common fishing knots for bending fishing lines.  I didn't even test the Double Zeppelin Bend, which is likely to be even stronger than the Zeppelin Bend.  Also, the Zeppelin Bend jams up in monofilament.  I did not test braided or fluorocarbon. See my Replies #71, etc.
http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1874.msg13148#msg13148
Title: Re: Fishing Knots - Joining Lines
Post by: roo on June 29, 2010, 11:50:25 PM
 If we start comparing knots that jam easily, I'd like to throw into the comparison the Albright Special, the Double Uni, the Double San Diego Jam, etc.  Let's stack the Fisherman Bends up against those knots.
I hope that means you're warming up to the idea of using standard angling knots for fishing line.  That was what this thread was about... I think.

Rope knots and homebrew knots, while certainly possible to tie, just aren't going to be strength competitive with common angling solutions.
Title: Re: Fishing Knots - Joining Lines
Post by: knot4u on June 29, 2010, 11:56:24 PM
If we start comparing knots that jam easily, I'd like to throw into the comparison the Albright Special, the Double Uni, the Double San Diego Jam, etc.  Let's stack the Fisherman Bends up against those knots.
I hope that means you're warming up to the idea of using standard angling knots for fishing line.  That was what this thread was about... I think.

Rope knots and homebrew knots, while certainly possible to tie, just aren't going to be strength competitive with common angling solutions.

EDIT:  After some testing, I'm finding the Zeppelin Bend to be as good as, or better than, common fishing knots for bending fishing lines.  I didn't even test the Double Zeppelin Bend, which is likely to be even stronger than the Zeppelin Bend.  Also, the Zeppelin Bend jams up in monofilament.  I did not test braided or fluorocarbon. See my Replies #71, etc.
http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1874.msg13148#msg13148
Title: Re: Fishing Knots - Joining Lines
Post by: roo on June 30, 2010, 12:08:45 AM
 In rope, if we're going to talk about knots that jam, then we might as well borrow some knots from the anglers and compare those.  We're on another topic at this point...
Meh.  I think there are already too many rope knots that jam.

But I don't think certain rope users choose these knots because they jam.  They sometimes choose them because they hope to not be seriously straining the ropes, such that they might not jam.  And there might be some other attribute about the knot that they like, such as extreme security in hostile (stiff, slick) rope, and the knot might just be easy to tie and hard to screw up. 

And so on.
Title: Re: Fishing Knots - Joining Lines
Post by: SS369 on June 30, 2010, 12:58:37 AM
Something that should be considered while contemplating the joining of these lines is the knot's ability to pass through the eyelets.

SS
Title: Re: Fishing Knots - Joining Lines
Post by: Dan_Lehman on June 30, 2010, 06:28:26 AM
There's more Replying here than reading & thinking,
and some comments that call for redress.

To one central point --i.e., relative strength of Rosendahl's bend--,
there is some evidence that the Grapevine Bend (aka Dbl.Fish) is
considerably stronger.  A decade ago or so, one fellow did some
homebrew, truck-pulls-knotted-rope-with-knots_A_vs_B in a sort
of competition.  With a few trials for most, he came out with the
Blood knot as a champion, and the Grapevine was also strong;
Rosendahl's Zep. bend was around the middle, not quite so strong
as Ashley's #1452, IIRC.  About these, we can wonder at the exact
geometry taking the force.  (The ends of each specimen were tied
w/Fig.8 eyeknots:  these never failed!!)
((Roo should recall this:  initiated by interest in a presumed invention
of the "Bulldog Bend", which turned out to be Ashley's #1425, which
indeed is a neat knot.))

And from the Treebuzz thread cited by Roo, we have another view:
Quote
When I tested the F8 bend against the ZB, I got 66% and 63% respectfully,
in 9mm PMI rope. I don't even consider 3% enough to claim a difference.
The DFB, however, held to a significantly higher loading and I finally ran
out of room on the machine before it failed.

This is not all so surprising, and quite contrary to
Quote
It seems that that the Zeppelin Bend doesn't put as much stress on a rope as does the Double Fisherman.  The angles in the Zeppelin Bend are not as extreme.
???
To my eye --and to one commenter in the Treebuzz thread--,
the initial bends in Rosendahl's bend are relatively hard, around
one diameter, whereas those in the Grapevine are more gradual
AND each SPart gets gripped pretty firmly by the other.  (E.g.,
in one test of 8mm low-elongation (caving) kernmantle where
a Strangle noose-hitch was tested (i.e., rope turned around a
'biner, and then a "half a Dbl.Fish" was tied to itself), the break
came in the SPart of the noose-hitch, not the knot --so tight
was the knot's choke on the highly loaded line!  (This might not
occur with every rope, though.)

To Roo's dismissal of the witnessed slippage "post rupture" of
the Grapevine:
Quote
When a knot breaks, it breaks.  I'm interested in what the strength percentage is,
not what dance the rope does or does not do afterward.
I'm done trying to think of different ways to explain this.
Security issues only apply before rupture. It shouldn't need to be said.
...
This is not a security issue with slippage, it's what happens after the rope ruptures.

But this behavior is significant, indicating the internal
slippage occurred prior to and so led to the rupture of the mantle
and not the (very strong) core.  Consider that at rupture HMPE
stretches about 4%, but polyester about 10%:  why would the
PES mantle be first to break, then?  --unless the kern's slippage
has left the mantle to do the work (or more than it should)!?
That's my conjecture, anyway.

So, it's not simply some behavior occurring after rupture, IMO;
it has occurred during loading and led to rupture.

Moreover, re
Quote
As I said before, the security issue with slick stiff rope and this knot
is the possibility of things springing open, not slither or slipping.
while I'm unsure of "this knot" --Rosendahl's?--, stiff rope can be
problematic re slipping as turns don't become sharp and nip,
enabling the rope to slip.  (This might explain Richards's results.)


Quote
I'd like to throw into the comparison the Albright Special, the Double Uni,
the Double San Diego Jam, etc.  Let's stack the Fisherman Bends up against those knots.

Firstly, let's forget we even thought about some "Dbl.SDJam"
-- hitching to a hitch is an obviously severe weakening, worse
than eye-in-eye:  1dia turns of highly loaded line vs. line, AND
moving (with force increase).

Secondly, somewhere above I asked if anyone had actually tied the Uni;
my point was that the just-prior-to-tightening images that are commonly
shown present a markedly different form of a multiple-Overhand knot
than seems to be expected to obtain from setting (which would be
the Dlb./Trpl./Quad Fisherman's/Grapevine (and Strangle) form.
So comparing a Uni to the Fisherman's is working with mirrors.
That this isn't recognized speaks to the level of familiarity with
these knots (which to some degree speaks to their presentations).

Quote
But I don't think certain rope users choose these knots because they jam.

Oh, they do.  And they do more:  they tape or hog-ring staple or
tuck-through-the-lay or otherwise secure tails of knots, even of
ones we conclude jam (such as the Fisherman's, noting here though
that Richards's testing found them to slip at high loads).  And
I've read remarks that jamming (well, what would pretty much
be tantamount to this aspect) is deemed good to limit movement
of material within the knot, under load.  (Think *frictional heat*.)

--dl*
====
Title: Re: Fishing Knots - Joining Lines
Post by: knot4u on June 30, 2010, 07:11:32 AM
Firstly, let's forget we even thought about some "Dbl.SDJam"
-- hitching to a hitch is an obviously severe weakening, worse
than eye-in-eye:  1dia turns of highly loaded line vs. line, AND
moving (with force increase).

Secondly, somewhere above I asked if anyone had actually tied the Uni;
my point was that the just-prior-to-tightening images that are commonly
shown present a markedly different form of a multiple-Overhand knot
than seems to be expected to obtain from setting (which would be
the Dlb./Trpl./Quad Fisherman's/Grapevine (and Strangle) form.
So comparing a Uni to the Fisherman's is working with mirrors.
That this isn't recognized speaks to the level of familiarity with
these knots (which to some degree speaks to their presentations).

First, I tie the Double San Diego Jam like I tie the Double Uni or the Fisherman Bend.  It's not a hitch to a hitch.  We're talking bends here.  Maybe you just don't think too well.

Second, I have tied the Double Uni several times and it's freakin' beautiful.  Maybe you need to practice a little more.
Title: Re: Fishing Knots - Joining Lines
Post by: Dan_Lehman on June 30, 2010, 07:45:33 AM
First, I tie the Double San Diego Jam like I tie the Double Uni or the Fisherman Bend.
It's not a hitch to a hitch.  We're talking bends here.  Maybe you just don't think too well.

I think well enough and have asked previously about how this
knot was formed (Roo at least gave the hitch-2-hitch answer;
you, nothing):  there are two ways I could see such a hitch
opposing hitch made:  each hitch *throttles* the other's *neck*,
or they are made (could be made) well apart, and then --yes,
like the Fisherman's Overhand components-- slide together,
abutting each other.  The latter formation doesn't seem at
all good, IMO, for strength or shape; the former would
be trickier to tie.

Quote
Second, I have tied the Double Uni several times and it's freakin' beautiful.  Maybe you need to practice a little more.

Here, again, I've asked (twice) about the form of the component
knots --"freakin'" or otherwise.  And here, too, you've provided no help.

--dl*
====
Title: Re: Fishing Knots - Joining Lines
Post by: knot4u on June 30, 2010, 05:45:46 PM
or they are made (could be made) well apart, and then --yes,
like the Fisherman's Overhand components-- slide together,
abutting each other.  The latter formation doesn't seem at
all good, IMO, for strength or shape

 ???

The Double San Diego Jam ends up looking almost identical to the Double Uni.  The tying method is similar to that of the Double Uni and the Triple Fisherman.  I would think the properties of all these knots are similar, but the angler knots are built for being able to tie more turns easily.  Also, because the San Diego Jam may be stronger than the Uni, the Double San Diego Jam may be stronger than the Double Uni.
Title: Re: Fishing Knots - Joining Lines
Post by: knot4u on June 30, 2010, 06:38:41 PM
To clear up some confusion, some guy on the Internet uses the term "Double San Diego Jam" but is NOT talking about joining lines together.

When I use this term "Double San Diego Jam" above, I'm talking about the bend analogy to the Double Uni and the Triple Fisherman.  My usage makes more sense because the term "Double Uni" is well established to refer to joining lines like this:

http://www.netknots.com/html/double_uni_knot.html
Title: Re: Fishing Knots - Joining Lines
Post by: knot4u on July 06, 2010, 05:36:28 AM
Ooops... Here are some test results that go against conventional wisdom.  I just did some testing with the the Zeppelin Bend on fishing line, and the results were surprising.

Using 10 pound test monofilament, I tied a Zeppelin Bend in the same line as an Albright Special.  I used a magnifying glass to inspect proper dressing and started over if I thought a knot was dressed improperly.  I pulled the line on each end until something broke.  The line broke at the Albright Special.

I repeated this test 5 times and received the same result each time.  The line consistently broke at the Albright Special and not at the Zeppelin Bend or anywhere else.  By the way, the Zeppelin Bend jams up in 10 pound test monofilament.

New thread: http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1902.0
Title: Re: Fishing Knots - Joining Lines
Post by: Dan_Lehman on July 10, 2010, 06:49:00 AM
Ooops... Here are some test results that go against conventional wisdom.

To say the least!

Quote
I just did some testing with the the Zeppelin Bend on fishing line, and the results were surprising.

Using 10 pound test monofilament, I tied a Zeppelin Bend in the same line as an Albright Special.
I used a magnifying glass to inspect proper dressing and started over if I thought a knot was dressed improperly.
I pulled the line on each end until something broke.  The line broke at the Albright Special.

I repeated this test 5 times and received the same result each time.
The line consistently broke at the Albright Special and not at the Zeppelin Bend or anywhere else.
By the way, the Zeppelin Bend jams up in 10 pound test monofilament

Good show!

One might question whether you tied the Albright Special correctly;
and, in re "correctly", what is your standard for assessing correctness?

First question, though, is where did the break occur?  (What
sort of loose piece did you have, what did the broken knots resemble?)

Good science demands repetition & verification,
so, thanks to your initiative, I got out some of my bags of discarded
fishline and set about doing a similar test.  I've no idea what strength
the monofilament line is, but it held for a while --in a closed loop/circle--
37.5# of barbell weights, and broke holding the same, just as I was
taking a gander at one of the Rosendahl bends.  I tied TWO of each
knot, in four pieces of line; each side of this closed sling/loop had
one of each knot (AS & RZ) --so I have a survivor of each, to examine.
So, maybe 20-30# line?
It was one of the Rosendahl Zep. bends that broke.  [edit to ad this, um, detail (!) :o]

I found tying the Albright to be a PITA; I used a Geoff Wilson method,
wrapping away from the bight tip 5 times and back the same number
to tuck out the end.  Even with saliva & pliers & nudging, I didn't get
the wraps to draw up fully, and certainly not to close tight the way one
should begin with the method of making all wraps back towards the
bight end (reach far straight, then wrap back).  These sorts of made
or not-made transformations I suspect lead to some various results.

I tied Rosendahl's Z. bend such that each Overhand's tail was pulled
by the other one's SPart away from its SPart --a form I think giving
a nice gradual curvature to the knot.  When I at first drew up one
knot in the easier-to-form version --tails toward respective SParts-- ,
the knot did seem as though it might jam (in such fiddly little stuff);
but the form/version I tied seems readily openable (but right now I
don't want to disturb the survivor).

Possibly, my version of the RZ is less strong than the other, in this
monofilament material.  As best I can tell from the broken knot,
the break came at the bend after passing through the collar, which
is where I'd expect it, at the u-turn.  (But one must be careful in
taking the now untensioned survivor's form as that that
held the full load; there is some recoil.)

In my quick review of some books' info re the Albright, I see that it
is intended for use of tying ("hitching" to a bight, I would say) thinner
line to thicker (or to wire), and sometimes using a "double" --i.e., an
eye knot (Bimini Twist, i.p.)-- for the Albright.  Doing that, of course,
makes the direct comparison to Rosendahl's bend problematic.

--dl*
====
Title: Re: Fishing Knots - Joining Lines
Post by: knot4u on July 11, 2010, 02:17:47 AM
In my comparison of the Zep Bend to the Albright Special, I tied the Albright Special according to a common technique.  I don't know how it's possible to prove to anybody if I tied a knot in 10-pound test correctly.  All I can say is that I tied the knots as best as I could and that I'm pretty good at tying knots.

Note the following:
(1) I tested the knots in my comfy bright home, not on a cold boat that's rocking with the waves; and
(2) If I can't make the Albright Special stronger than the Zep Bend in ideal conditions, then I probably can't make it stronger while on the cold boat.

I'm a little troubled by my findings because, as I understand it, the Albright Special is supposed to be a relatively strong bend for fishing lines.  It makes me have even less confidence with any claims of strength for a particular fishing knot.

When the time comes to bend fishing line for real, I'll probably pull out the good ol' Zeppelin Bend.  I can easily see if I tied the Zep Bend perfectly, and I know that it'll probably be as strong as, or stronger than, any other bend I know.