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General => Practical Knots => Topic started by: knot4u on June 09, 2010, 11:06:25 PM

Title: Favorite Way to Tie Trucker's Hitch
Post by: knot4u on June 09, 2010, 11:06:25 PM
DELETED
Title: Re: Favorite Way to Tie Trucker's Hitch
Post by: roo on June 09, 2010, 11:18:02 PM
Please list your favorite combination of knots for the "trucker's hitch

The "anchor" would depend heavily on the circumstance, and if the hardware was a hook, ring, bar, or something else.

For pulley-simulating loops, both a Butterfly Loop or a Span Loop will do.  The Butterfly Loop requires no thinking about pull direction, since it doesn't matter, but a Span Loop is very pleasant to untie.

ref:
http://notableknotindex.webs.com/spanloop.html
http://notableknotindex.webs.com/butterflyloop.html
Title: Re: Favorite Way to Tie Trucker's Hitch
Post by: roo on June 09, 2010, 11:49:49 PM
I'll have to check out that span loop.  I haven't tried it.

I generally prefer a slip loop for the pulley, but if I wanted to ensure the utmost security for peace of mind, then I'd go with a fixed loop.

A variable loop that communicates with the tensioning line might very well be fine.  In the back of my mind, I'd probably be wondering if it might be subject to a poldo-tackle-type effect that might allow for some de-tensioning of the system due to vibration or jolting.

ref:
http://notableknotindex.webs.com/poldotackle.html
Title: Re: Favorite Way to Tie Trucker's Hitch
Post by: jcsampson on June 10, 2010, 01:55:37 AM
Excellent topic for a thread!

Let's say there's a horizontal post to which you will hitch. In this context, I would usually make a Trucker's Hitch like this:

- At the other end of the line, I would first make my favorite hitch (Come on, you can guess. . . .)

- Determine the Butterfly Loop's position by beginning to make a Trucker's Hitch--which uses your hand instead of a pulley loop--around the post

- Make the Butterfly Loop at the determined position (using a clockwise turn)

- Try it out, adjust the position and size of the BL as necessary (which is very easy and comfortable once you figure out how), and finish dressing and setting it

- Make the Trucker's Hitch by taking the working end over the post, under through the Butterfly Loop, over the post again, and finally behind the Butterfly Knot, anchoring to the standing part using Two Half Hitches, and then securing the tail to the standing part by using a Fixed-Gripper Knot that is pulled taut, as far away from the Two Half Hitches as possible

- Alternatively, I might make a "perpetually adjustable" Trucker's Hitch by using--instead of Two Half Hitches--two stacked Fixed-Gripper Knots pulled taut up the line

The reason I like the BL for the TH is that, when you remove the TH, the BL stays right where it is on the line and patiently waits for your next use of the TH--so all succeeding uses (on the same truck) can be very fast, easy, and comfortable (if you hitch the other end last, to accommodate variations in load size).

Actually, you don't even need to REMOVE the TH side. Just loosen it and walk to the other side to unhitch. Reverse the procedure with a new load: Hitch and walk to the TH side to tighten.

JCS
Title: Re: Favorite Way to Tie Trucker's Hitch
Post by: Knotman on June 10, 2010, 09:59:32 AM
I have a ute with bars around the tray.  I tie a clove hitch on one side and throw the rope across.  With the end of the rope out behind me I tie the truckie hitch and finish with a slipped clove hitch.  The method I use means you never have to reeve the end through a knot or what you tie down to.  A loop on the bight is drawn down behind the bar and lifted up in front of the line coming across the load.  A loop from this line is drawn up through the look from the bar and locked into a round turn of the line across the load.  It looks like its going to pull out when you put a load on it but this doesn't happen. 

Darren
Title: Re: Favorite Way to Tie Trucker's Hitch
Post by: Knotman on June 11, 2010, 10:56:21 PM
if I pull down on the ear the knot spills; this is how I sometimes loosen it for untying.  In 20 years of using the knot it has never come undone in it's own.  If you're worried about people mucking around with it, would making the sheepshank ear part longer and tying a half hitch around the standing part with it  help?
Darren
Title: Re: Favorite Way to Tie Trucker's Hitch
Post by: roo on June 11, 2010, 11:42:56 PM
 There is probably a way to tie down the trucker's hitch without having access to the rope end

It's not really necessary.  If your rope is too long, leave the excess length on the fixed (non-tensioning) side of the load (easily done with a hook using a Pile Hitch, for example).  Coil or braid up the excess.  Having the right amount of rope on the tensioning side always makes things easier, neater, and quicker.

ref:
http://notableknotindex.webs.com/pilehitch.html
http://notableknotindex.webs.com/midspan.html
Title: Re: Favorite Way to Tie Trucker's Hitch
Post by: Andy on June 18, 2010, 12:25:33 PM
Favorite way to tie a truckie?

When I worked as a "garbo", I had to tie truckie's hitches all day long to secure bins on the back of a truck.
I was taught a "quickie" way of making the truckie's hitch.
Because you only need one hand to do the "double twist", you can use the other hand to bring in the bight, and it's insanely fast.
I've documented the method here:

The "Quickie Truckie": Fast Way of Tying a Trucker's Knot (http://asiteaboutnothing.net/cr_most-useful-knots.html#truckies-knot)

(The link sends you to the middle of a page, where the section about the truckie starts).

Smiles,

Andy
Title: Re: Favorite Way to Tie Trucker's Hitch
Post by: Andy on June 18, 2010, 11:33:20 PM
[EDIT: I did not post four messages in a row. It looks like that because Knot4U deleted his posts. Sorry about the confusing reading. :o ]

Quote
This video shows your version:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gcz-D0kxiwo

Correct. Great resource.

Quote
That's the sheepshank version with the ear tied in a half hitch for locking.

I don't think so.
The structure on the diagram may look similar, but the flow is completely different.
The quickie truckie comes around the post at the very beginning, then the working end goes over the rope.
As a "way to tie the trucker's hitch" (the subject of the post), it's definitely different.

Moreover:
1. There's a double twist.
2. The final locking is optional.

Title: Re: Favorite Way to Tie Trucker's Hitch
Post by: Andy on June 19, 2010, 12:07:21 AM
[EDIT: I did not post four messages in a row. It looks like that because Knot4U deleted his posts. Sorry about the confusing reading. :o ]

Hi knot4u,

Quote
In other words, your diagrams are the same as the video, except you have a double twist around the sheepshank ear.

No. The video is exactly the same as my pictorial. It has a double twist.

What is markedly different from my pictorial is the sheepshank diagram you posted (http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1870.msg12670#msg12670).

You said:
Quote
That's the sheepshank version with the ear tied in a half hitch for locking.

Referring to the sheepshank diagram you posted (http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1870.msg12670#msg12670), I replied:

Quote
I don't think so.
The structure on the diagram may look similar, but the flow is completely different.
The quickie truckie comes around the post at the very beginning, then the working end goes over the rope.
As a "way to tie the trucker's hitch" (the subject of the post), it's definitely different.

Moreover:
1. There's a double twist.
2. The final locking is optional.

Best wishes,

Andy
Title: Re: Favorite Way to Tie Trucker's Hitch
Post by: Andy on June 19, 2010, 12:16:16 AM
[EDIT: I did not post four messages in a row. It looks like that because Knot4U deleted his posts. Sorry about the confusing reading. :o ]

Quote
OK, the way you wrote your post original, "the diagram" seems to refer YOUR diagram on your website.

Okay, got it.
I think diagram" is for some kind of drawing or sketch---that's why I thought it was clear that it referred to the sheepshank drawings you posted. Not clear enough... LOL
I call my presentation a "pictorial", not a diagram. :)
Wishing you a fun weekend
Title: Re: Favorite Way to Tie Trucker's Hitch
Post by: jcsampson on July 02, 2010, 01:31:08 AM
Yeah, it's like an in-line Trucker's Hitch.

JCS
Title: Re: Favorite Way to Tie Trucker's Hitch
Post by: roo on February 05, 2011, 08:01:20 PM
Test out the Span Loop with the Trucker's Hitch.  Let me know if you think it puts too much strain on the rope.  In the Span Loop, I noticed that there are a couple of one diameter turns inside the knot.
You can alter the initial curvature of the incoming line by how tight you tie it, but really the chances of you breaking a rope by the puny force human arms can apply on a trucker's hitch-type application is approaching zero.
Title: Re: Favorite Way to Tie Trucker's Hitch
Post by: SS369 on February 05, 2011, 08:13:18 PM
I just tried out the span loop on my trailer, went from rail to rail (no with load to bind down) and though it is quick, it was more difficult to untie than my go-to loop. I like the butterfly loop best in this application because I will usually leave it a bit sloppily dressed. It still holds as the "pulley" and will untie easier.
The double loop version of the butterfly does this even better, using both loops as the bearing/friction points. Has lots of meat inside too.

Yes, you do have to tie in the right place , but that's not a real big deal.

SS
Title: Re: Favorite Way to Tie Trucker's Hitch
Post by: TMCD on February 06, 2011, 01:03:35 AM
After watching that video of the guy tying the logs down using the span loop, that really seems like the easiest way for me to tie the truckers hitch. I've been toying around with this hitch for several weeks now on my kitchen table chairs.

There's so many different ways on the internet that it eventually confuses a knot novice such as myself, but the span loop method really clicks. Thanks Andy and Knot4u for the video. The guy in the video is gaining some serious leverage and mechanical advantage on that load.
Title: Re: Favorite Way to Tie Trucker's Hitch
Post by: roo on February 06, 2011, 07:34:22 AM
I just tried out the span loop on my trailer, went from rail to rail (no with load to bind down) and though it is quick, it was more difficult to untie than my go-to loop. I like the butterfly loop best in this application because I will usually leave it a bit sloppily dressed. It still holds as the "pulley" and will untie easier.
Are you sure you tied the Span Loop correctly?:

http://notableknotindex.webs.com/spanloop.html
Title: Re: Favorite Way to Tie Trucker's Hitch
Post by: SS369 on February 06, 2011, 04:17:32 PM
Hello Roo,

I am as sure as I can be as I used your drawing on the page at the site you've supplied the link for.
Thank you.

I did yank it tight enough to flex the trailer side rails in towards each other where the front verticals stiffen them.
The rope I used is a dynamic rope and that may exasperate the untying. I did untie it though, just not as easily as the loop I normally use.
I also use some "cheapy" rope for loads that don't require  the "good" rope  and won't dare try it with any kind of knot/loop that stands a chance of jamming because the nature of this rope is very abrasive and compressive.

SS
Title: Re: Favorite Way to Tie Trucker's Hitch
Post by: Dan_Lehman on February 07, 2011, 08:11:08 PM
I like the Span Loop because it may be the easiest loop to untie for this particular application.
I have the found the Butterfly to be more difficult to untie.  YMMV.

Besides the doubled sheepshank (to coin a term),
another TIB eyeknot that could work here is the so-called
Yosemite bowline.  And there are other single TIB bowlines.

And maybe another way to try to lessen abrasion of rope-on-rope
through the eye is to use a 2-eyed knot with separate reevings
per eye --i.e., go through one down to anchor and back up
then down through the other (nominally, more than really,
upping the mechanical advantage to 5:1).  Practically, now,
to lessen abrasion, one would want to haul down on BOTH
down-lines from these eyes, in unison.

--dl*
====

Title: Re: Favorite Way to Tie Trucker's Hitch
Post by: TMCD on February 16, 2011, 01:10:29 PM
I'm currently tying a slipped OH, then taking the loop and tying a half hitch around the standing part above the knot.  This is a super little fixed loop for tying the truckers knot.

Does this loop appear in Ashley's Book? I haven't been able to find it if it does, it's a little different than the span loop which works out of the bellringer knot. I couldn't seem to tie the span loop exactly how Ashley's drawing rendered the knot, my knot part looked just a lttle different. However, I'm sure it was the span loop because it's so simple to tie and it was secure and untied easily. I like the slipped OH tied off with a half hitch though, is there a name for this?
Title: Re: Favorite Way to Tie Trucker's Hitch
Post by: Sweeney on February 16, 2011, 07:28:22 PM
This sounds like a variation on ABOK #1019 (where the end is half hitched rather than the loop itself). I can see it would be hard to untie after loading and of course you cannot slip the half hitch.
Title: Re: Favorite Way to Tie Trucker's Hitch
Post by: Dan_Lehman on February 17, 2011, 06:42:56 PM
Animated Knots used to (maybe currently does, but it's slated to be
upgraded, and the impending revision uses Dir.Fig.8) show a simple
twisted eye for the Trucker's Hitch.  I would take this twisted eye
and make one simple change : put counter-/over-wraps of the tail
around the twisted core, to stabilize that and make the point of
initial curvature-loading of the tail near the twisted eye (rather
than at its tail-end, as currently shown).
Cf. www.animatedknots.com/truckers/index.php?Categ=scouting&LogoImage=LogoGrog.jpg&Website=www.animatedknots.com (http://www.animatedknots.com/truckers/index.php?Categ=scouting&LogoImage=LogoGrog.jpg&Website=www.animatedknots.com)

I tried this structure --the twist-eye holding a bight-eye which is
used qua sheave-- in 5/16" laid PP and stood on the secured
hitch with a 5:1 pulley --400#?  It was easy to untie.  I was
concerned that the twist-eye might compress/deform in some
way with heavy loading, but it seemed stable.

My prescription : make 3 half-turns (adding a cross of bight legs
each time) of a bight, then bring the tail around to wrap in 2
half-wraps (or 3) and tuck a bight through the just-formed twist-eye.
Then take the tail down to the fixed anchorage and back up through
the bight-eye and Haul Away, Joe!


--dl*
====
Title: Re: Favorite Way to Tie Trucker's Hitch
Post by: TMCD on February 19, 2011, 02:38:51 PM
The knot he tied, the slipped OH with the loop half-hitched above:  I don't know a name for this.  I would like to know it, if there is one.
He's not saying that this is a span loop.  Let's for arguments sake call it the the slipped OH with the loop half-hitched above, for now (OH&HHL).

The OH&HHL seems fine.  I tried it and no problems.
The span loop too is good.  I found no reason not to use it.

The knot that Andy uses, the bell ringer's knot with the loop half-hitched above:  any reason why this couldn't be considered a double loop?  I tried it and it seems fine, though I did no testing. (I tried it a few minutes ago and got on here to ask immediately.)

Also, why the name sheepshank?  I love that it's called that but why?  I don't see that the knot resembles a lamb leg.  

One more thing: I came up with another loop idea.  Make the bell ringer's knot.  Then instead of hitching the loop above, instead take it around the standing part above and through the small first sheepshank loop, exactly like a bowline is finished.  You end up with a loop with a tiny smaller one inside, the larger one being the operative one.



Ok ...ONE more thing.  Has anyone considered also using the inline figure-8 loop?  That's also a pretty quick knot to tie.  Also known as the single bowline on a bight, but there at least two knots called that, #1057 & #1058, the latter being preferable.

In Geoffrey Budworth's book, I found this loop and he calls it a overhand knot and half hitch. He also says it's known as a packer's knot. Budworth claims weavers use it, eskimos, and anglers for a leader loop.
Title: Re: Favorite Way to Tie Trucker's Hitch
Post by: TMCD on February 20, 2011, 08:43:42 PM
I really think the knot performs well, it's very simple to tie and has shown it's strength in holding down my ladders. I don't like to untie it though, that's it's major negative IMO. It's hard to undo the half hitch after it's under strain. IMO, the span loop unties much easier BUT is harder to tie, so they both have drawbacks. I'll probably start going with the span loop in the future, although I really like the ease/speed of tying the "packer's knot" when I'm loading up ladders at the end of a hard day.
Title: Re: Favorite Way to Tie Trucker's Hitch
Post by: Dan_Lehman on February 20, 2011, 11:19:04 PM
...
In Geoffrey Budworth's book, I found this loop and he calls it a overhand knot and half hitch.
...

That citation is wayyyy general --GB has about two dozen books!
Which one meets your eyes, here?

 :)
Title: Re: Favorite Way to Tie Trucker's Hitch
Post by: TMCD on February 21, 2011, 02:31:17 PM
...
In Geoffrey Budworth's book, I found this loop and he calls it a overhand knot and half hitch.
...

That citation is wayyyy general --GB has about two dozen books!
Which one meets your eyes, here?

 :)

The Ultimate Encyclopedia of KNOTS and Ropework written by Budworth is the book I found it in. It's in the very front of the book covered under 'basic knots'. I would highly recommend this book to any person with an interest in knots. It's simply a beautiful book from cover to cover.

Title: Re: Favorite Way to Tie Trucker's Hitch
Post by: roo on February 21, 2011, 06:02:03 PM
I've been playing with this stuff all week, thought I'd give my final thoughts, for what they're worth.

Pretty much all of the suggested permanent inline loops (lineman's loop, span loop, bellringers with half hitch, #1074, #1057, #1058) have the same attributes: easy to tie, with a tendency to jam under a heavy load.  None of them stand out from the others too well.  If I want one of these loops, I think the alpine butterfly loop (ABOK #1053) is probably the easiest to untie.  I like Andy's method to tie his Bellringer knot with the half hitch, but I still favour what I always used, which was the slipped stevedore knot.  It's fast to tie, fast to undo and isn't a permanent loop, yet is more stable than just a slipped overhand.  I think these are the most important attributes for a trucker's hitch.

I find that the Span Loop is easier to untie after hard loop load than the alpine Butterfly Loop.  Do you have a picture of a jammed Span Loop for verification purposes? 
Title: Re: Favorite Way to Tie Trucker's Hitch
Post by: Dan_Lehman on February 22, 2011, 12:26:43 AM
I've been playing with this stuff all week, thought I'd give my final thoughts, for what they're worth.

Pretty much all of the suggested permanent inline loops (lineman's loop, span loop, bellringers with half hitch, #1074, #1057, #1058) have the same attributes: easy to tie, with a tendency to jam under a heavy load.  None of them stand out from the others too well.  If I want one of these loops, I think the alpine butterfly loop (ABOK #1053) is probably the easiest to untie.  I like Andy's method to tie his Bellringer knot with the half hitch, but I still favour what I always used, which was the slipped stevedore knot.  It's fast to tie, fast to undo and isn't a permanent loop, yet is more stable than just a slipped overhand.  I think these are the most important attributes for a trucker's hitch.

"Playing" is good; but please give details of materials & loading,
so we can try to understand exactly what you're doing.

There should be an easy selection of non-jamming knots here,
esp. those with bowline-like bases.  As noted, I tried a sort of
version of what I think Knot4U calls a "Stevedore" structure,
stabilizing it with counter-wraps, and loading it pretty substantially
after hauled tight.  (Though we should note that the hauling
puts more challenge to the mid-line eye-knot than the holding,
as it will be somewhat imbalanced vis-a-vis the part leading
away down to the anchor hook/ring, given friction --i.e., it
will be more an end-eye than a mid-line eye, in loading.)



I've brought ropes to near breaking, but the Span Loop still unties easily for me. 
:o  How did you bring ropes to near breaking (and how can you tell)?!
--that's some few thousand pounds force!  Even with my (crummy) 5:1 pulley,
I figure that I'm only reaching around 800# or so if I bounce on it some.
(I have accidentally broken some cords, and Fishline, Beware!)

Quote
a Butterfly tight and difficult to untie, I'll use it in a Trucker Hitch.

Noting that the butterfly is asymmetric, and has various ways to
orient the eye-legs (or tails) --crossing or not (not is usually depicted).


Quote
Above, Roo noted that a slip knot can subject a Trucker Hitch to a Poldo Tackle problem if there is a strong vibration or tampering:
http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1870.msg12642#msg12642

No, Roo only mused that maybe something like that could happen
(and, frankly, it's unlikely in the (dubious) Poldo tackle, for that matter)
--to wit:  "wondering if it might be subject to a poldo-tackle-type effect" .

NONE of the slip knots pass. 
...
I didn't take his word for it.  I verified this when I put various slip knots through a tamper test.

And I don't take your word for it, and ...
I call BS --and let's see some details of your test set-up.

I've just tried to see this in sub-1/4" soft solid-braid nylon,
and 4mm? slick soft-laid (firm strands) PP.  Only with some
deliberate lifting of the haul-down side of the bight to the
anchor hook could I force some shift in the nipped sheave
bight, and only before hauling the structure tighter.
That any such de-tensioning can happen with a tied-off
structure in normal cordage is beyond belief : the slippage
will have to go through the tying-off hitch around haul legs,
around the hook, and through the strongly nipping S.Part-eye!!
That is some kind of tampering.  (My lifting, to be clear, removes
any load from the "slipped" eye-sheave; normal use sees this with
tension.)


--dl*
====
Title: Re: Favorite Way to Tie Trucker's Hitch
Post by: Dan_Lehman on February 22, 2011, 07:42:02 AM
Whether you think I was thinking is beside the point,
it is a question yet begging an answer, lacking in your reply.

Ignoring the question of your "tamper test" in which you found
slippage doesn't shed any light on the issue, either.  You claim
to have gotten a trucker's hitch to have loosen by some mythical
Poldo-Tackle mechanism --slipping around three hard turns and
at least one strong nip--, and that certainly bears questioning,
still in the absence of any explanation (as you eliminate a
practical impossibility).

--dl*
====

Title: Re: Favorite Way to Tie Trucker's Hitch
Post by: TMCD on February 22, 2011, 01:58:53 PM
All of this conversation and we haven't come close to an agreement on which midline loop to use for the truckers hitch....I guess I'll keep using the slipped OH with half hitch added to then form a fixed loop. Budworth also calls this a 'packers knot'. The two that make the most sense to me are the span loop and the one I just described, especially if we're worried about using a slippery hitch of some sort.

The common way on youtube and other internet sites seem to be a slippery hitch with a twist or two...many here seem to think that won't hold properly and I can see where you're coming from. This method would probably be just fine in most applications though, such as moving furniture from one part of town to the other etc. I'm starting to believe the most important part of the trucker's hitch system besides the midline loop or hitch, is the final tying off method.
Title: Re: Favorite Way to Tie Trucker's Hitch
Post by: roo on February 22, 2011, 05:34:33 PM
No, Roo only mused that maybe something like that could happen
(and, frankly, it's unlikely in the (dubious) Poldo tackle, for that matter)
--to wit:  "wondering if it might be subject to a poldo-tackle-type effect" .
I've noted that it isn't difficult to get the Poldo Tackle (http://notableknotindex.webs.com/poldotackle.html) to lengthen if subjected to jostling, jolting, or other motion.  I encourage you to give it a try.  The only question is how difficult it is to get that effect to take place in an actual tensioned trucker's hitch with a slip loop or a loop that communicates with the moving line.  This assumes that you can see the Poldo Tackle analog in such a trucker's hitch that doesn't use a fixed loop.

I will kindly leave the matter to knot4u to describe the conditions by which Poldo-Loosening occurred in his trucker's hitch testing.

(http://notableknotindex.webs.com/poldotackle10.gif) (http://notableknotindex.webs.com/poldotackle.html)
Title: Re: Favorite Way to Tie Trucker's Hitch
Post by: Dan_Lehman on February 22, 2011, 06:48:23 PM
Whether you think I was thinking is beside the point,
it is a question yet begging an answer, lacking in your reply.

Ignoring the question of your "tamper test" in which you found
slippage doesn't shed any light on the issue, either.  You claim
to have gotten a trucker's hitch to have loosen by some mythical
Poldo-Tackle mechanism --slipping around three hard turns and
at least one strong nip--, and that certainly bears questioning,
still in the absence of any explanation (as you eliminate a
practical impossibility).

--dl*
====



Not trying to be mean, I don't know what you're saying.

I am saying this:  you have made a couple of assertions without
giving any detail, which are hard to understand.  How did you
bring ropes to near breaking strength (and how did you know
what the force was, that it was in fact near ...)?
(That is something one usually tries hard to avoid, and with ropes
(not string/cords) it requires considerable force, posing some danger!)
And what is this "tamper test" of which you speak, and by which
you judge many common knots as being defective.

Further, I have tried to find ANY HINT of the mythical Poldo-Tackle
slippage & loosening you claim to have found; but you give no
details of your "tamper test" by which you ...
Quote
I verified this when I put various slip knots through a tamper test.
I tried it with three different materials, more recently with slick,
new, nylon hollow-braid commercial-fishing binding cord run through
a 'biner anchor (a relatively broad, smooth, round metal), which I
could *strum* for vibrations.


Now, Roo suggests trying the Poldo Tackle and seeing the behavior.
Yes, it can happen --just tried it with that hard, firm-slick-3-stranded
soft-laid PP 4?mm cord run through 'biner anchors holding 5# and
then 17.5#.  Indeed, I had long ago built a low-friction Poldo Tackle
using another, maybe slicker PP cord (sent to me in frustration by the
sender and called "the Devil's cord!") and cut-out 2-litre bottle necks
for sheaves (broad, smoooooooth-slick); for I had come to conclude
that the Poldo Tackle was theoretically (i.e., sans friction) unstable
--and, indeed, in this latest, low-friction construction, it quickly slipped
to full-extension lock (Roo's upper figure, eyes abutting) !!

But the P.T. is a far cry from the trucker's hitch workings, where in
place of simple eye one has a hitched eye (i.e., it's constricted)
--maybe two (i.e., the tied-off tail if hitched snug to the sheave-eye)--,
and possibly a constricted pair of haul lines (i.e., when one ties off
around the pair of down-to-&-back-up-from lines around the anchor.
AND one is unlikely to be using the slickest cordage available.


.:.  I'm curious about what your "tamper test" was.


--dl*
====
Title: Re: Favorite Way to Tie Trucker's Hitch
Post by: Dan_Lehman on February 22, 2011, 08:28:58 PM
All of this conversation and we haven't come close to an agreement on which midline loop to use for the truckers hitch....

There's more than one way to skin a cat : you have some variety
presented here from both use & conjecture, and one can encounter
a variety of circumstances of tying & materials.

Quote
I guess I'll keep using the slipped OH with half hitch added to then form a fixed loop. Budworth also calls this a 'packers knot'.

This seems an UNdesirable knot, in that it's not TIB (tiable in bight);
why select it?

Quote
The two that make the most sense to me are the span loop and the one I just described, especially if we're worried about using a slippery hitch of some sort.

I'm not worried about many of the knots here, esp. the traditional ones,
other than the simple nipping turn (bellringer's) construction, which
has that air of instability, vulnerability to mischief --and esp. in some
materials.  As for the span loop, from the same beginning, one can
form a single bowline in the bight, taking the short (upper, as shown)
bight end down & around all that is below it (a bight & tail), bringing
it back up into position as the bowline's collar, and dressing.  This
bowline can be seen as tucking the 2nd turn of a clove hitch through
the first and working that "backflip" (I have called it elsewhere) move
--best in this particular form of the collar, IMO, btw).

Quote
The common way on youtube and other internet sites seem to be a slippery hitch with a twist or two...many here seem to think that won't hold properly and I can see where you're coming from.

The slip-knot or like (in posts above I've specified giving added twists
and then a counter-wrap before tucking the bight through) should be
fine, and no one but Knot4U has deemed it vulnerable to loosening
--an allegation we stand wanting details about, and which possibility
I have strongly denied.

Quote
I'm starting to believe the most important part of the trucker's hitch system besides the midline loop or hitch, is the final tying off method.

For that, if you've room, you can initially put a half-hitch around the
two down-legs, jamming it secure; then you can tie off that with a
rolling hitch, or might only need to wrap the tail around the half-hitch
between the nipped down-legs and jam it into place, which should
give added resistance to the half-hitch slipping.  Again, this will be
material-dependent in behavior.  You might go down to the anchor
a 2nd time and back through the sheave and get some versatackle
mechanics, with adequate rope and accepting anchor.
--more cat-skinnings ...


--dl*
====
Title: Re: Favorite Way to Tie Trucker's Hitch
Post by: xarax on February 23, 2011, 10:54:45 PM
   If we tie a second loop, or if we pass the Working end two times around the anchor point and the (first) loop, we can arrange the tail to pass in between those two loops, and be locked there by the compression of the two U s of the two loops on it.
   This is done very easily. We just pass the tail through the (first) loop, and then we pull it towards the anchor point. It will go automatically, by itself, underneath the second loop, between the first and the second loops, and it will lock there (See attached picture).
   I do not know if it is a common practice, but this is the way I use to tie my trucker hitches from one anchor point on the ceiling, and one anchor point on the ground, to have a tensioned rope, ready for my "hitch around tensioned ropes" tests. The so secured tail between the two loops needs no further knotting, but, in heavy loadings, we should secure it even further. Having it locked at there, this would be now an easier task.
  
Title: Re: Favorite Way to Tie Trucker's Hitch
Post by: xarax on February 24, 2011, 12:48:23 AM
That's like a versatackle, sorta.

   The interesting thing is not the presence, or not, of the second loop (versatackle). It is the way the tail locks in between the two U s, either there is a second loop (versatackle), or one loop and the Working end making another trip through this one loop. The tail is very easily put there, almost by itself, and it stays there ! Then, we can secure it further much easier, in many ways.
Title: Re: Favorite Way to Tie Trucker's Hitch
Post by: Dan_Lehman on February 24, 2011, 05:39:50 AM
I didn't read all that from Dan, and I probably won't because most of what he says is theory B.S.

It's what?
Well, nevermind, I think we can see how you hold to your positions.

Quote
1.  Tampering.  ... grab the length of rope that extends from the slip loop down to the second anchor.
 Pull on that toward the second anchor such that the slip loop shortens.
 You can also pull the opposite strand inside the loop the opposite direction.
 Depending on the rope, you may have to use more force.
 Regardless, that strand of rope is definitely susceptible to movement.

That is some kind of "tampering"!  Yes, what you say can occur.
And there's another "tampering" test to go along with this one,
at the same level of reasonableness & aptness per tampering :
untie the tie-off knot; untie the mid-line eyeknot --not even a fixed
eye stops this tampering (or the simpler one, done with a knife).
Your method sounds like better exercise, though.   ::)

Quote
(Also note that it's common to pull on that strand of rope to help tighten a Trucker Hitch before tying down.)
 

It is?!  I don't note that at all; I haul on the haul line.  But whatever the
case, tying down is done with a tight structure, and for any slippage
to occur it would take some serious deliberate effort such as you describe.
(NB:  You neglected to mention what nature of cordage this occurred in.)

Quote
2.  Vibrating or jostling.  I have some trees around my house supported by Trucker Hitches.  After a storm with strong winds, the Trucker Hitches were loosened.  According to my observation, the slip loops were noticeably smaller.

Mere loosening would indicate unrecovered stretch from loading, most
probably, or some shift as you suggest; but not the shrunken slip-eyes. 
Again, you don't mention the nature of the cordage.  Or the details of
your structure(s) --the then-favored "Steverdore" slip-eye, with Two
Half-hitches
tie-off?

Quote
As another example, I have homemade exercise equipment ...

Of why you care, yes, but this isn't an example of shifting,
for you've not observed any.

Quote
If I tie a simple fixed loop, ..

You prove that there are many ways to skin this cat,
yes.  --which can be simple to tie/untie.

Quote
There will probably be misplaced replies here telling me results are off.  That's OK.  I trust my results more than I trust anonymous dudes on the Internet playing keyboard commando.  Also, I'll be tying my knots.  You'll be tying your knots.  I recommend you generate your own experimental results because you'll [be] the person tying your knots in the future.
People like Dan may call my prudence B.S.  I call it not being an idiot.

"People like Dan" --viz., those who do read (all of) what is written
and think about it and take its measure with what they know--
called your assertion about Poldo-Tackle effects in the Trucker's Hitch
"BS".  Your "tamper test" works to prove that point, but the tree-support
changes urge some further consideration; but we're still short on details
here.  (But I note that you made no hint about finding failing trucker's
hitches
other than by taking Roo's musing into a severe "tamper test"
and then deeming what has worked well for many to be suspect!?)

It didn't seem as though your keyboard punching was done solely for
your own entertainment but was offered as anonymous-person advice;
in this forum, that's up for challenge (even by the unanonymous).

--dl*
====

Title: Re: Favorite Way to Tie Trucker's Hitch
Post by: Dan_Lehman on February 24, 2011, 06:15:44 AM
The interesting thing is ... the way the tail locks in between the two U s, ...
 The tail is very easily put there, almost by itself, and it stays there !

Ahhhh, now you're hooked!  --it IS such an intriguing structure.
But as you use it more and more demandingly you'll find that in
fact it does NOT stay there --rather, it tends to squirm out
of the opposed-bights nip, when tensioning, that is.
This is the reason you see my added long turns around a leg of
one the opposed bights in my binder discussed here
 http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1451.0 (http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1451.0)
(hauling is done best by pulling tails away from each other,
especially on slippery bound objects).

I wouldn't be concerned about the structure under heavy
loads, but under fluctuating ones, and any slackening;
as you note, the tie-off is a simple, casual affair.  And the
untying is done by taking the tail back through the upper
opposed bight (in this orientation) and pulling it out of
the nip.

--dl*
====
Title: Re: Favorite Way to Tie Trucker's Hitch
Post by: xarax on February 24, 2011, 02:31:42 PM
But as you use it more and more demandingly you'll find that in fact it does NOT stay there
I wouldn't be concerned about the structure under heavy loads, but under fluctuating ones,

Yes, I consider this "lock" between the two U s a temporary solution, to offer the tyer the time window ( and the convinience) to secure it further :
  Then, we can secure it further much easier, in many ways.

  The mechanical advantage has also, a a side effect, the advandage to dampen, absorb, in a way, the dynamical loads of fluctuating forces. However, I woudnt leave the tal there without further security, in a truck !   :)
   The tails unlocks, gets out of the embacement, with the same easy way it locks, gets in there, as you describe.
    

 
Title: Re: Favorite Way to Tie Trucker's Hitch
Post by: xarax on February 24, 2011, 02:49:55 PM
the opposed bights [mechanism] discussed here
 http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1451.0 (http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1451.0)

  I had not noticed this mechanism to this day. I might have missed the thread altogether, or confused by the linguistics. The text, just above the telling picture (See attached re-posted picture from this thread) is redundant and tends to obscure the solution, rather than enlighten it. A fine, beautiful mechanism.
  Congratulations, Dan Lehman !
 
  Are the twisting of the two tails used on purpose to offer some aditional, reef-knot-like, friction ?
Title: Re: Favorite Way to Tie Trucker's Hitch
Post by: Dan_Lehman on February 24, 2011, 09:40:56 PM
 Are the twisting of the two tails used on purpose to offer some aditional, reef-knot-like, friction ?

As I said, but wasn't understood --awkward to word--
"This is the reason you see my added long turns around a leg of
one the opposed bights"
:

The twist ("long turn" --well, depends on the structure how "long")
pulls the tucked tail to one side where it can't get into mischief
and let an nipping part crawl over and eject it.  This was the only
way I found to resist that otherwise annoying problem.

I was eager to try out this binder, and one of the first uses was on
some, hmmm, bamboo poles transported on a roof rack for use in
setting up a banner, IIRC.

--dl*
====
Title: Re: Favorite Way to Tie Trucker's Hitch
Post by: xarax on February 24, 2011, 11:03:02 PM
The twist...pulls the tucked tail to one side where it can't get into mischief and let a nipping part crawl over and eject it. 

  Good, I understand it now. It is only to keep the orientation of the tails entering into the nipping loops right.
Title: Re: Favorite Way to Tie Trucker's Hitch
Post by: Dan_Lehman on February 25, 2011, 08:25:23 PM
For everybody besides Dan, ...

As far as readership is concerned,
there's not much evidence that this isn't a null set,
or at least their interest is null,
for you go really off kilter here:

1.  I bought rope that's rated at about 100 pounds.
  Gnarly strong rope is unnecessary for this test.
...
5.  I set up the Trucker Hitch such that the two eye bolts in the ceiling are the first anchor.
The eye bolt in floor is the second anchor.

6.  Instead of tying off the Trucker Hitch, I made a loop at the end.  ...
I make the loop such that it hangs about 1 foot from the floor when the Trucker Hitch is tight.

7.  I use the loop as a foot [pedal] to put extra weight into tightening the Trucker Hitch.
For added weight, I can wear a weight vest.  I bounce on the loop if I'm really trying to break the rope.

NOTES:
-At all times, I'm mindful of the stress points.
-Because of gravity and the nominal 3-to-1 advantage of this Trucker Hitch,
the highest force on a single knot will be at the first anchor.
The next highest force on a single knot will be at the business portion of the "sheave" loop in the middle of the Trucker Hitch.

Accordingly, this test is primarily designed to test those two points.
-If I want to test the knots without going to the breaking point, then I use stronger rope.
-There are many different variations to test many different knots.

The attentive reader's deduction would be, assuming what you say
is right, that you weigh about 40 pounds.  I hadn't put your
weight quite so low, myself --but this wasn't meant for me.

"Bouncing" on the structure to me implies pretty much giving force
equal to or more than your weight, and this is in mere 100# rope,
AND with SOME bit of mechanical advantage, no less --I'll guess about
1.7:1 with that smooth eyebolt.  So, at a mere 90-pound-weakling mass
you should be putting upwards of 150# on knotted (read: weakened)
100#-tensile rope --and it hasn't broken (yet) !  --you MIGHT add a weight vest!!
(In light of your proximity to the in-danger-of-rupture cord,
some long sheet/blanket around the line might be in order.)

As for where the highest force is, the single-strand span between
the ceiling anchor and the sheave knot delivers equal force between
these points --so I don't see how you find them different in this.


For the attentive readers, a more instructive test --and more practical--
would be to toss a likely-to-be-used line or few over a tree limb
(padding w/carpet would be environmentally pleasing) and tie it
to some dead weight (barbell weights, e.g.).  Then see how much
you move these as you work to tighten the tested structures.
The tree limb & padding will give much friction, so you can do
with not so much dead weight (esp. if you actually want to register
some movement and thereby get some guesstimate of generated
force).

Another option would be to span two trees/poles with the
structure, and hoist weights by running the line through a
'biner at one end, for tension.  And you can try *strumming*
the line to check for slippage & tension equalizing on the
haul end.


--dl*
====
Title: Re: Trucker Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: xarax on February 26, 2011, 07:33:47 PM
   A binder, according to
http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1451.0
   Varying the relative orientation of the two loops, the directions from which the tails enter into those loops, and possible twists of the four connecting rope strands around each other, we can have many point symmetric or mirror symmetric variations of the same binder.
Title: Re: Trucker Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: SS369 on February 26, 2011, 08:36:42 PM
Good day Xarax.

Do you find this to have the semi-self locking attributes as say the Versatackle?

SS
Title: Re: Trucker Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: xarax on February 26, 2011, 10:38:27 PM
   Oh, I really can not tell, I think that it has "semi-locking" attributes similar to the " one-tail-in-between-two-U s" mechanism I was talking about in my previous post, (1), but I can not compare it to Versatacle, simply because I have never tied a Versatacle in my life...yet.  :)
   The fact that we have to pull two tails instead of one, has advantages and disadvantages, compared with the simpler mechanism, presented at (1). However, the fact that we have now half of the loads and double of the locking places, might be considered as an insurance premium, worth the added trouble.  :)
 
   1) http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1870.msg17364#msg17364
Title: Re: Trucker Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: xarax on February 27, 2011, 01:19:25 AM
   Thank you knot4u,

if you miscalculate at the beginning, you'll taxed pretty hard later, compared to other binding knots.

  You are right. ( The two links in the pictures were shown so close to eachother for presentation purposes only) The original Dan Lehman s binding has also this problem, although to a lesser degree, I think.
Title: Re: Trucker's Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: Benboncan on March 09, 2011, 09:27:55 PM
Not a knot or a Truckers Hitch but might be of interest.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=55Tx9T55hHc&feature=related
Title: Re: Trucker's Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: xarax on April 09, 2011, 04:13:36 PM
   Just another tucker s hitch variant, based upon the mechanism described at (1). At the "second line of defence", the tail is secured here by a Versatackle-like self locking mechanism.

1. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3012.0
Title: Re: Trucker's Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: Dan_Lehman on April 09, 2011, 09:16:59 PM
   Just another tucker s hitch variant, based upon the mechanism described at (1). At the "second line of defence", the tail is secured here by a Versatackle-like self locking mechanism.

1. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3012.0

Actually, no, this doesn't even begin to work
--the friction build-up overwhelms it.


 :(
Title: Re: Trucker's Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: TMCD on April 10, 2011, 12:38:43 AM
So far, the Trucker's Hitch is by far my favorite knot to toy and play around with. There's just so darn many ways of getting creative with the structure, especially the midline loop. I think the easiest loop and it's never slipped on me, is just making a loop and twisting it a couple of times, this is the biggest descrepancy regarding the T.H. anyway. Some people on here swear by the Span Loop, some the butterfly loop, fig 8 etc. I've tried Andy's T.H. that he learned as a garbage man and it's not my favorite, I just don't like the way the midline loop ties, it's odd to me.

Ashley recommends the Harness Loop in his book and it's a decent loop but seems to require a lot of extra rope until it finally tightens on itself.
Title: Re: Trucker's Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: xarax on April 10, 2011, 12:45:38 AM
--the friction build-up overwhelms it. :(

  That s the good news ! The friction build-up is sufficient to block the binder completely , 2 B sure !  :)
  We have to tighten the binder in more than one step, as I have already said for the other similar binders: First, we pull the proper end of the "one way" mechanism, so that the first loop shrinks to the desired degree, and tensions the binder. Then, and only then, having the size of this first loop fixed by the "first line of defence", the one way mechanism, then we make sure the "blocking end" stays a little tensioned, ( so it remains parallel to the "blocked" end, and the mechanism does not fall apart ). How do we achieve this task ? By passing the tail through the second and third lines of defence, eliminating any slack rope that is left on the second loop.
   It might look complex at first, but, after a little practice, it is not. We first have to master this "one way" mechanism, get the "feeling" of how it blocks the slippage of the rope through the bight when we pull it by the one end, while it allows it when we pull it by the other end. ( We must only make sure that the two legs of the rope are parallel to each other, so we must always maintain a small tensile force on the "blocking" end as well.)
  
    
    
Title: Re: Trucker's Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: xarax on April 11, 2011, 01:59:53 AM
 I think you preemptively scare away 90% of the people in an already small crowd right from the beginning. 

  Impossible ! The 90% of this crowd in not a whole person ! (yet...)  :)  

 Instead of a Bowline right there, that would likely be my second (non-rope) anchor.

  Of course. Sorry for any confusion because of this choice. I have shown the "white" end of the "orange" rope as such, just to cover the case we use this structure as a binder around a pack of objects. In the tucker s hitch, we only need an anchor ring there. ( I always follow the convention to show the free ends as "vertically" placed rope strands in the picture frame.)
Title: Re: Trucker's Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: xarax on April 11, 2011, 02:13:18 AM
  I see a major flaw here.  By introducing more friction, you're further reducing the mechanical advantage in a system that is already not even close to the nominal mechanical advantage...
   I prefer to leave the extra friction out of the system until the very end...

  You are right. I am delighted when I use the mechanical advantage of the Versatackle ( not to say anything about its marvellous self locking mechanism at the very end ). I have tied my first Versatackle only recently, and I still enjoy the wonderful mechanism of this knot. The hitch I have shown here is nothing but an exercise on the possibility of incorporating the "one way" mechanism I explain at (1), in the case of tucker s hitch. I would be glad if you succeed in simplifying this idea even further, perhaps in other, novel ways that have not crossed my mind.
Title: Re: Trucker's Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: xarax on April 11, 2011, 02:30:20 AM
...it used too much material
... for me, tightened down before it was tight enough.  

   For a binder using less material, see (1).
   It was happening to me, too, all the time !  :) The trick is to adjust it in three steps, as I have explained in (2).

   "2 B sure", I think that you have to pass the tail one more time around the anchor pole and the through the nipping loop of your "niptruck". Or, just tie another, second Gleipnir nipping loop alongside the first - as the inventor of the Gleipnir has suggested in the original post.

1) http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3012.msg17902#msg17902
2) http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1870.msg17898#msg17898
Title: Re: Trucker's Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: Atomic on August 21, 2011, 12:32:44 AM
I like the butterfly loop. I didn't know the name of it, just how to tie it. When I looked it up I found that it was also called the lineman's loop. Pretty cool because I am a lineman. Anyway I teach it to all the youngins that try to put a looped overhand knot in the rope. It's easy to remember how to tie and it comes out easy.
Title: Re: Trucker's Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: dbertels on September 14, 2011, 02:22:00 PM
I've been using the Trucker's Hitch (with single slipknot) for many years now, mostly to tie my kayak onto the car's roofrack. The photo illustrates the 2 ways I use of finishing it. I keep on reading that people use clove hitches to finish off, however I've found this difficult to do as the rope is under tension, just using ordinary 'square' knots (if that's the right word) seems to work best for me. While this has been working for me,  is this a sensible way of  going about it?
Title: Re: Trucker's Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: xarax on September 14, 2011, 02:50:17 PM
people use clove hitches to finish off, however I've found this difficult to do as the rope is under tension

   First, you tighten and stabilize the hitch with the help of the single (1), or the double (2) Versatackle-like lock - you pass the tail in between two oposing U s. Then, you finish and secure it with half hitches or something.
 
1) http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1870.msg17364#msg17364
2) http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1870.msg17414#msg17414
Title: Re: Trucker's Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: TMCD on September 14, 2011, 09:40:00 PM
I've been using the Trucker's Hitch (with single slipknot) for many years now, mostly to tie my kayak onto the car's roofrack. The photo illustrates the 2 ways I use of finishing it. I keep on reading that people use clove hitches to finish off, however I've found this difficult to do as the rope is under tension, just using ordinary 'square' knots (if that's the right word) seems to work best for me. While this has been working for me,  is this a sensible way of  going about it?

I use reversed half hitches just like you do when finishing off my trucker's hitch. The RHH's are much more easily untied than the standard two half hitches and they still give plenty of security in my experience. The only thing I do differently than you is the mid line knot. When tying the midline knot, I tie it by taking into consideration how long and how often I'll use this system. For example, I've got my small jon boat secured to the trailer with a trucker's hitch and it's basically semi-permanent, so I use a figure 8 on the bight. If it's a one time deal, such as moving furniture, I'll tie a slipped figure 8 that allows me to untie the knot easily and it can be used for another purpose. You could also use the Butterfly Knot for a semi permanent TH, but I usually tie some sort of slip knot if it's not permanent.
Title: Re: Trucker's Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: TMCD on September 15, 2011, 01:44:15 PM
I always tie the initial half hitch in a slipped form but for some reason, I just like the look of two RHH versus two HH. I've read where Ashley stated two HH are slightly more secure than two RHH, but the RHH untie easily.

A part of me likes the RHH because of the Cow Hitch structure that 's involved versus the clove hitch that makes up two HH. Same as the Buntline vs. Lobster Buoy Hitch, the Buntline is based on the clove hitch while the Lobster Buoy is based upon the Cow Hitch. Of course in the last scenario, they say the Buntline is a tad bit more secure than the Lobster Buoy, but they're both trapping the working end.
Title: Re: Trucker's Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: sinthome on October 26, 2011, 12:03:07 AM
How would you classify the "trucker's hitch" in this video? It is my favorite so far, since it seems to stay pretty secure (with the double loops) and doesn't snag when trying to pull it undone:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQFyR153mXI

I don't know enough about knots to tell which one this is and if everyone has been talking about it already.  :P
Title: Re: Trucker's Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: roo on October 26, 2011, 12:34:52 AM
How would you classify the "trucker's hitch" in this video? It is my favorite so far, since it seems to stay pretty secure (with the double loops) and doesn't snag when trying to pull it undone:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQFyR153mXI

I don't know enough about knots to tell which one this is and if everyone has been talking about it already.  :P
Calling it a "truckies hitch" as is done in the video kinda grates on my ears. 

The video starts off with an unwise choice of a clove hitch.  Just about anything would be better.  The choice of a bell-ringer's knot or some variant is quick (unless you follow the video method), but is not very secure and stable.  You could increase the stability by turning the bell-ringer's knot into Span Loop, and using that as your pulley simulator:

http://notableknotindex.webs.com/spanloop.html

I'm partial to using two pulley simulators as shown here (second diagram for the context of this discussion):

http://notableknotindex.webs.com/Versatackle.html

Not only do you get more tension, but the system is self-locking, so you don't lose tension as you fumble to figure out how to tie off the end.  Just pull and you're done.
Title: Re: Trucker's Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: sinthome on October 26, 2011, 12:46:40 AM
Yeah, I dislike "truckie" as well. I thought it was an Aussie thing. So the loops in this video are bellringer's? I like that they pull free so fast and easy when you are done with the hitch. Versatackle with butterfly loops seems best for when you don't mind the extra time spent on untying.
Title: Re: Trucker's Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: roo on October 26, 2011, 04:29:30 PM
Yeah, I dislike "truckie" as well. I thought it was an Aussie thing. So the loops in this video are bellringer's? I like that they pull free so fast and easy when you are done with the hitch. Versatackle with butterfly loops seems best for when you don't mind the extra time spent on untying.
You can use a Versatackle with Span Loops, or even Bell Ringer Loops.  I think I can completely remove a Versatackle with Span Loops faster than that guy in the video could remove his tangle with all the tucks and turns and re-tucks.
Title: Re: Trucker's Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: TMCD on October 27, 2011, 01:31:21 PM
@Roo, the clove hitch works fine whenever I use it atop my sport utility vehicle. I guess a snuggle hitch or slipped constrictor would obviously be more secure but it would be overkill from my experience's. I can get a ton of security from the first anchor being a clove hitch and have driven one hundred miles at a time with 75lb coolers cinched down with a TH...never had a problem. The CH does obviously have to be positioned correctly though, where the outer parts of the turn is taking the strain.
Title: Re: Trucker's Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: roo on October 27, 2011, 04:27:28 PM
@Roo, the clove hitch works fine whenever I use it atop my sport utility vehicle. I guess a snuggle hitch or slipped constrictor would obviously be more secure but it would be overkill from my experience's. I can get a ton of security from the first anchor being a clove hitch and have driven one hundred miles at a time with 75lb coolers cinched down with a TH...never had a problem. The CH does obviously have to be positioned correctly though, where the outer parts of the turn is taking the strain.
I've never cared for the snuggle hitch and a constrictor isn't really a hitch.   But anecdotal evidence under undemanding conditions does not negate the clove hitch's security problems and vulnerabilities (http://notableknotindex.webs.com/clovehitch.html).   It'd be nice to start with a hitch that could stand up to a really bumpy trip.

There are simple hitches with better security and stability:
http://notableknotindex.webs.com/gnathitch.html
http://notableknotindex.webs.com/slippedbuntline.html
http://notableknotindex.webs.com/pilehitch.html
http://notableknotindex.webs.com/timberhitch.html
http://notableknotindex.webs.com/sailorhitches.html
Title: Re: Trucker's Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: TMCD on October 28, 2011, 12:37:54 AM
One thing that seems to have happened in all of these discussions involving the Trucker's Hitch is overkill has reared it's ugly head. It's reared it ugly head whether we're talking about the midline loop, the anchor hitch etc. We've gotten a thumb's up or down list on various midline loops and what's comical is that many of the loops that make the thumbs down list are actually quite acceptable. The Fig 8 on a bight is VERY secure, not sure how it made the thumbs down list...possibly because it's not real easy to untie?

Let's say for example that we tie the TH using the Clove Hitch as the first anchor point, then we use a slipped fig 8 and of course tie off with two HH.
That VERY common method of tying the TH has been largely discredited by some folks on here, yet it stands up to very tough conditions and performs well probably on a daily basis around the globe.

IF I'm going down a VERY bumpy, pot hole filled road and have something precious to tie down, my method may change. The anchor point probably becomes a slipped constrictor or even two HH, the midline loop would be the Alpine Butterfly locked down with two HH. But this would be a special case as I've seen what kind of job the simple CH with a slipped fig 8 at the mid line can do.
Title: Re: Trucker's Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: sinthome on October 28, 2011, 08:43:25 AM
as long as the rope stays taut and doesn't slip at the loop, isn't the pull direction stable? and doesn't this make the CH a perfectly acceptable option?

there really should be two categories for the TH, with distinctly different criteria-- a "permanent" TH and a "quick" TH. the latter would have the criterion that any loop(s) need to slip undone with zero effort besides a quick pull on the loosened rope, while the "permanent" should have loop(s) that are totally secure but that never jam. both categories should have the criteria of fast tying and setup and not jamming or slipping under expected conditions. the permanent version should, naturally, stand up to all the abuse you can throw at it, while the quick type should just be able to handle the moderate abuse of a regular road.

anyway, that is what i see as being the practical approach. i don't think anyone disagrees that some of the popular methods for tying a TH are quite inferior to others. but sorting out the winners requires two categories.
Title: Re: Trucker's Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: TMCD on October 28, 2011, 01:34:21 PM
You say slipped loops aren't a good remedy but they work just fine EVERYDAY in the world we live in, most folks tying these trucker's hitches are not tying a fixed loop system. If you mean that they're a little easier to tamper with, then I'd agree with that statement. But even then, it would take some pretty boneheaded tampering to goof up a properly cinched down TH...and anybody with common sense knows not to mess with a tie down.

A fixed loop system should be used for a semi permanent TH, like the one I use for tying my jon boat down to the trailer. I use a constrictor at the first anchor point and a directional fig 8 on the bight and trust me, this is arguably the best (securest version) of a TH you can possibly come up with.

Your argument over the CH is very misleading because once it takes strain at a right angle, it's actually very secure. You say you can shake it loose, well sure you can because it's not designed to take stress and pull from different angles, only a right angle. Most hitches are designed to be right angle pulls...very few will properly take pull and strain from just any direction.

Having said all of this, I too like the detailed discussion here and I'm a knot junkie or I wouldn't be here.lol. I still like to keep things simple if I can, just because I know how to tie damn near any hitch, bend or loop, there's no sense in getting fancy if it's not called for IMO. This particular thread is going to impress upon the casual person that they MUST tie their TH with a fixed loop or it's not worth a nickel and that's just very misleading...that's my point. Most people who need a quick TH use the slipped midline loop of some sort and it's perfectly acceptable in the large majority off applications. I know a guy who moved furniture for a living, he tied his TH with a slipped overhand and said he's never had a problem with it...it's how the store manager/owner shows all new hires according to him.
Title: Re: Trucker's Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: roo on October 28, 2011, 04:41:47 PM
as long as the rope stays taut and doesn't slip at the loop, isn't the pull direction stable? and doesn't this make the CH a perfectly acceptable option?

Since sinthome & TMCD aren't using the quote function, it makes it hard to figure out who they are addressing, but I will say that even though a Clove Hitch is especially vulnerable to direction changes, it is also vulnerable to jerking even without direction change.  It's also susceptible to slipping at higher loads.

Part of the Clove Hitch's problem is that there isn't a change of direction of the free end around the standing part to help put a stop to tendencies for the whole form to revolve.  This also happens to be why the Constrictor Knot isn't a good choice for an end hitch (among other reasons) though it may not be as obviously deficient as the Clove Hitch because of the difference in overall frictive force.
Title: Re: Trucker's Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: xarax on October 28, 2011, 06:44:30 PM
   A problem of the (two) loops based upon the slipped overhand knot, is the very sharp first curves of the free ends, and the ends of the bight.  An easy way to address this problem, is to form a nipping loop above the slipped overhand knot, and to pass the bight through it. Besides the fact that now the first curves are smoother, this possibility might be considered as an advantage of tying a slipped overhand loop - because it gives us the flexibility to beef it up that way, if, at any time after we have tied the simpler loop in the first place, we would decide that we should better need a more stable and stronger loop for our trucker s hitch.
   Depending upon the handness of the nipping loop, there are two different loops that can be tied this way, for each of the two slipped overhand loops, so there are four, in total, such loops that can be used in a trucker s hitch. ( See. the attached pictures ).
Title: Re: Trucker's Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: xarax on October 28, 2011, 09:03:23 PM
nice photos, xarax ! are there ABOK#s for those?

 Thanks, sinthome. My purpose was to show how we can improve the one  loop knot ( the simple slipped overhand loop ), by combining it with the other ( the simple nipping loop ). In fact, all that we have to do, is to form two simple nipping loops, and to link them by a simple bight formed by the intermediate line segment ( in the case of B1 and B2 loops), or by a line segment below the "lower" nipping loop ( in the case of A1 and A2 loops) : we make this bight pass through both eyes, the one after the other. So, the point here is not the final compound knots, but the procedure by which they are tied, and the need / reason which motivated us to tie them.
   I believe that it is not useful - in fact, it might well do more harm than good -  to attach the ABOK numbers and their corresponding images to such simple knots :  People tend to learn / memorize by heart those numbers and images, and disregard / forget the reasons that made us chose those particular knots, and not some others.
Title: Re: Trucker's Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: TMCD on October 28, 2011, 09:07:19 PM
To me, the use of a common Bell Ringer's hitch is what I call a Wagoner's Hitch and doesn't have the security needed for my desires. The Span Loop is very well thought of around here but strangely enough, I've never been able to tie it the way it's presented in Ashley's Book. My Span Loop just doesn't "look" correct and I guess if someone showed me what I'm doing wrong, I might come around to it. It's simple enough to tie but I just don't get the desired look for some reason. Not sure what I'm doing wrong.

For a fixed loop, I think the Butterfly is the way to go because of it's ability to take a pull in any direction and it's fairly easy to untie. I've been going with the Fig 8 on the bight, it's the old fashioned way of tying the TH...somewhat of a pain if you intend on untying it though. I have tried the Span Loop with no luck at all. I'll admit though, I find myself tying slipped midline loops more often than not and they've held up very good for me. I've hauled a 75lb cooler on top of my SUV going 75MPH and the cooler didn't move an inch, I marked it and checked it from start to stop on a 100 mile trip. I used the slipped fig 8 in that scenario, with a CH at the original anchor point.

Xarax I wish I had your fertile mind for knotting matters, it's amazing how you can manipulate what's already out there and improve upon it with such ease.
Title: Re: Trucker's Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: xarax on October 28, 2011, 09:23:23 PM
Xarax' solutions just posted basically turn the slipped Overhand into fixed loops.

   Right. Although the motivation was to beef up the slipped overhand loop. so we get more gentle first curves.

The loops were more difficult to untie than a Span (ABOK #1049) and an enhanced Bell Ringer (ABOK #173).

   The Span loop ( ABoK#1049) is not accompanied by the "pretzel" sign of Ashley for no reason !  :)  I do not believe that all those four loops behave the same way, but, of course, I do not doubt your conclusion, that they are harder to untie than the Span knot. I would like to test all the possible loops with, say, a quarter of the maximum and a half the maximum rope strength, and then compare the forces needed to untie them. There are so many TIB midline loops, who knows what we could discover after we test them in a systematic way...

   For a fixed loop, I think the Butterfly is the way to go because of it's ability to take a pull in any direction and it's fairly easy to untie. 

   Knot4u, what are your thoughts about the Alpine Butterfly loop ? How do you compare it with the Span loop ?
Title: Re: Trucker's Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: roo on October 28, 2011, 09:25:09 PM
. My Span Loop just doesn't "look" correct
If it helps:

http://notableknotindex.webs.com/spanloop.html
Title: Re: Trucker's Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: Hrungnir on October 30, 2011, 10:12:13 AM
In hard, stiff and rough materials such as polypropylene, I've experienced the Alpine Butterfly Loop to be very difficult to untie after a hard directional pull. I've used the Versatackle, but you should be able to reproduce a similar result using the Trucker Hitch as well.


Quote from: sinthome
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQFyR153mXI
When trying to increase mechanical advantage, he might be better off using double loops and threading them separately. There will probably be less friction inside the loop(s) when there aren't two ropes interfering with each other.

In my experience, it very hard to maintain the tension after a really hard pull on the standing part. The fingers aren't strong enough to pinch the rope at the loop. It's clever to use roundturns, but I assume he will loose tension compared to a self-locking-mechanism.
Title: Re: Trucker's Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: xarax on October 30, 2011, 02:07:39 PM
   When trying to increase mechanical advantage, he might be better off using double loops and threading them separately. There will probably be less friction inside the loop(s) when there aren't two ropes interfering with each other.

  I guess you mean two loops arranged in a parallel  configuration. For two loops arranged in a series  configuration, see Reply#55 (1).

1. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1870.msg17414#msg17414

Title: Re: Trucker's Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: xarax on October 30, 2011, 02:53:52 PM
   Even a simple 2 : 1 mechanical advantage can be exploited, so knots that would not hold otherwise, can serve as sufficiently secure binders. The most prominent example is the Gleipnir. In the attached pictures, see four adjustable binders, from the more complex to the most simple.

   P.S. The last binder, although it looks very simple, it is very efficient. In fact, each overhand knot grips and immobilizes the penetrating other overhand knot s Tail End so efficiently, it was also conceived as a bend ( ! )( Bend "X", M. B3 ), by Mandeville :
   G. Budworth. The Knot book. ( 1983 )( p. 131 )
Title: Re: Trucker's Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: xarax on October 30, 2011, 08:54:58 PM
To be precise, Hrungnir is talking about tying a double loop...Then, you go around the second anchor twice, and through each loop once.

  That is precisely what "in parallel" means !  :) Like resistors arranged in a series and in parallel...The configuration, "in a series", shown, is self locking.
Title: Re: Trucker's Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: TMCD on November 06, 2011, 04:37:50 PM
I may start to tie my TH's with the Bellringer and a half hitch for insurance. The guy in the Trail Blazer's video that we've featured in this thread does it that way and Knot4U ranks it high on his list. I started fooling around with this method and it seems secure but better yet, it's fairly easy to untie after a heavy load has been tied down with it.

I've tinkered with so many different ways to tie the TH because it's fun to me. Is the Bellringer/half hitch lock method popular?
Title: Re: Big Advantage of Bell Ringer loops
Post by: roo on December 05, 2011, 08:32:01 PM
The Bell Ringer loops are the only loops in my list that allow me to have the rope fed through the loop without needing access to the working end.

This can also be done with a Midspan Sheet Bend (http://notableknotindex.webs.com/midspan.html) pinching off a loop.  The result will be more stable.
Title: Re: Trucker's Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: TMCD on December 06, 2011, 05:13:38 AM
That certainly is a nice advantage to have, but why don't you stop or coil the rope on the first anchor side and then uncoil the proper amount needed to finish the hitch. I did this the other day actually, I just uncoiled the amount I needed for a tie down and left the excess in a coil on the first anchor side. I do see what you're saying though and you could definitely bring the excess coil over to the other side.

Knot4U, I have also started tinkering with the span loop and it's a good looking loop. I don't like the way it takes a load on the one side that seems to distort, so I have to work fairly hard to tie it the way I want it to take the load. I like tying it so that when cinched down, it doesn't distort and that seems to only be achievable from one side of it. It unties like a dream too...On ABOK 1074, are you running the working end through both loops or just the first loop?
Title: ABoK#1148 as a double Trucker s hitch loop
Post by: xarax on December 06, 2011, 06:12:37 PM
  It would be interesting to test the "double" Bell Ringer s loop ( ABoK#1148 ) as a double Trucker s hitch loop, in the spirit of (1). Is it as easy to untie as the Span loop ( ABoK#1049 ) ?

1.   http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=2812.0
Title: Re: Big Advantage of Bell Ringer loops
Post by: Dan_Lehman on December 06, 2011, 10:02:45 PM
BIG advantage of the Bell Ringer loops

These loops are unique in that I don't need the working end of the rope to place the rope through the loop.
...
The Bell Ringer loops are the only loops in my list that allow me to have the rope fed through the loop without needing access to the working end.

I'm not following what is said, what is going on, here.
Can you give an example of this characteristic,
of where the bell ringer succeeds and some other
knot fails?

--dl*
====
Title: Re: Big Advantage of Bell Ringer loops
Post by: TMCD on December 07, 2011, 01:10:32 AM
BIG advantage of the Bell Ringer loops

These loops are unique in that I don't need the working end of the rope to place the rope through the loop.
...
The Bell Ringer loops are the only loops in my list that allow me to have the rope fed through the loop without needing access to the working end.

I'm not following what is said, what is going on, here.

Can you give an example of this characteristic,
of where the bell ringer succeeds and some other
knot fails?

--dl*
====

The tying method of the Bell Ringer automatically places the WE inside the loop once finished, that's all he's saying. You don't have to reeve the WE through the loop like you do in knots such as the Lineman's Loop or Directional Fig 8 etc.
Title: Re: Trucker's Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: Sweeney on December 07, 2011, 06:06:31 PM
I couldn't follow this at first but then realised that I have tied most trucker hitches using a hook at the WE where the loop doesn't matter whereas with no access to the end of the anchor point as would be the case with a bar or roof rack then the bellringer or midspan sheet bend (the latter I rather like for this) do make life easier. I'm grateful to knot4u for pointing this out.

Barry
Title: Re: Big Advantage of Bell Ringer loops
Post by: Dan_Lehman on December 08, 2011, 05:55:31 AM

I'm not following what is said, what is going on, here.
...

--dl*
====

To add to what TMCD said,
...

I'm still lost.
When I see a bellringer's loop I see an eye devoid of anything
*in* it (as in Xarax's copied double version).  Can you explain some
example --showing where this I-don't-see-it difference matters--
in *slow motion*, as it were.

Okay, the infinitely long rope has been tossed over the load
on the lorry, and we're to put in a trucker's hitch.
We grab the rope, and ... ?
There must be just a hook for our anchorage, or else
the endlessness of the rope challenges us if a ring.  OR is
this the key?  --that one can reeve a bight through a ring
and then form the leveraging sheave via bellringer ?

(One can go further than bellinger into a full bowline
with the *working bight-end*, btw, and get twin eyes,
to boot, plus the more stable knot.)

--dl*
====
Title: Re: Big Advantage of Bell Ringer loops
Post by: roo on December 08, 2011, 05:27:10 PM
Should I be tying the Midspan [Sheet Bend] as shown in your diagram on the right?  Or should I be tying it like that diagram upside down?  In other words, which side of the Midspan is the pulled rope?

Both directions of pull will work, although I might have a slight preference to having the U-shaped part of the knot associated with the tensioning side of the line.
Title: Re: Trucker's Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: TMCD on December 09, 2011, 12:32:40 AM
Another clever way to tie a TH using the SheepShank version is to tie the Constrictor in the Bight and then push your bight up through both HH's and cinch down. It essentially does the same thing as the Bell Ringer HH lock does, rendering the Sheep Shank version secure. I'd love to take credit for this tying method because I simply have looked EVERYWHERE on the computer and haven't seen any signs of anyone tying a TH this way. It works just as well as the HH lock on the Bell Ringer and it dresses almost exactly like the Bell Ringer. It unties easily too and I'm pleased to report this finding.

If you're a lover of the SheepShank version, often called the Truckie Hitch, this should be attractive to you. I think I'll start using this method, although I like the Bell Ringer HH lock. I'll call this one the Bell Ringer Constrictor...
Title: Re: Trucker's Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: xarax on December 09, 2011, 01:30:51 AM
push your bight up through both HH's

  Pushing a bight through two nipping loops, resembles the tying method of the four loops described at Reply#92 (also shown at Reply#96) right ?
Title: Re: Trucker's Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: TMCD on December 09, 2011, 01:47:29 AM
Yes, your pics show basically the same theory as what I'm tying. I'm just using the Constrictor on the Bight method and pushing the loop through them as you did. Your pictures don't show the Constrictor method or do they?

I may do a YouTube video of this method as I've never seen or read about it on the internet. This is a really cool way to tie a TH IMO.
Title: Re: Trucker's Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: TMCD on December 09, 2011, 02:14:50 AM
Wait a minute Xarax, the more I studied your pics the farther apart we are here. Your pics show a slipped OH that's beefed up with another HH. My work is the Constrictor on the Bight as the midline knot but it also utilizes key features of the Bell Ringer. It's a Ringer Constrictor in essence.
Title: Re: Trucker's Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: xarax on December 09, 2011, 03:14:23 AM
   I believe a series of carefully chosen sketches and/or pictures can show any tying method of any  practical knot, sufficiently well. ( There is no real need for videos... ). I admit I prefer to see nipping loops where others see half hitches, and I always try to analyze and describe complex knots by using a reduced set of simple knot elements ( and not a set of not simple knots, as the Constrictor ...). Analyzing and describing knots and knot-tying methods by other, well known knots and methods , although it seems an easy and natural thing to do, is often a source of mistakes, because practical knots are simple knots, and simple things are very sensitive to even one minuscule difference... Yes, some pictures will help (me)   :)!
Title: Re: Trucker's Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: TMCD on December 09, 2011, 11:04:36 PM
It does capsize and it's desirable in this case as you already mentioned. I can probably dress it to where it doesn't capsize but then again if I do that, it'll be much harder to untie. I pulled on that ear and it's definitely secure, my 275lbs couldn't budge it.

Here's the deal with this knot. I've been looking for alternatives to the regular Bell Ringer TH because I happen to really like the style of the BellRinger and how it just falls apart. We've got the BellRinger HH lock which was the main improvement to this style until right now...at least that appears to be the case. The Constrictor Ringer just falls apart too and is probably more secure than the Bell Ringer HH lock IMO. It's extremely fun to tie, and is cool in it's ability to improve upon the Bell Ringer which basically went for years without much improvement. Let's also remember that the Bell Ringer is probably the "original trucker's hitch/wagoner's hitch" from back in the day. We've seen many modifications to the TH because of slippery rope...that's the main reason we see it tied with slipped knots and fixed knots. The original method was good for coarse rope. Now we can use the original method with a slick modification.

I'm sure I could tie it with gloves on but gloves would complicate the tying process of darn near any knot IMO.
Title: Re: Trucker's Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: TMCD on December 10, 2011, 06:35:04 AM
I've found another way to secure the Bell Ringer in the TH, just tie ABOK 1244 in the Bight and it operates just like the Constrictor does. I'll have to fool around with it to see whether or not I like it better than the Constrictor. It might be better because it may untie just a little easier. Either way, they both give plenty of security to the TH and could be used as either quickie's or semi-permanent tie downs.

I can't see myself ever using a fixed loop again.
Title: Re: Trucker's Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: Hrungnir on December 12, 2011, 12:50:15 PM
Do you guys have any good suggestions for the finishing hitch of the TH?

Two half hitches seems to jam horrible if there's a lot of tension, or one of the object or cord is soft or springy. A slipped single half hitch may not be secure enough for some situations...
Title: Re: Trucker's Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: Dan_Lehman on December 12, 2011, 06:35:59 PM
Do you guys have any good suggestions for the finishing hitch of the TH?

Two half hitches seems to jam horrible if there's a lot of tension, or one of the object or cord is soft or springy. A slipped single half hitch may not be secure enough for some situations...

!!  If 2HH jams, then so too would a slipped single hitch
--though this implies a lot of load (or a too-small line).
Still, I often like to tie off with a friction hitch to the multiple
lines (two, at least) leading to the anchor point --possibly,
if jamming is a risk, with a *guard* half-hitch (turn) (or double),
and then a rolling hitch or clove hitch (the latter being
adequate in rough cordage and with the guard doing work).

Sometimes, one can put in a tight half-hitch(turn) and then
jam the tail between the just-nipped lines beyond & then
behind this turn (which behind placement spreads the two
tensioned lines immediately before the half-hitch and thus
gives it some better *bite*).


--dl*
====
Title: Re: Trucker's Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: Hrungnir on December 12, 2011, 07:56:13 PM
Do you guys have any good suggestions for the finishing hitch of the TH?

Two half hitches seems to jam horrible if there's a lot of tension, or one of the object or cord is soft or springy. A slipped single half hitch may not be secure enough for some situations...

!!  If 2HH jams, then so too would a slipped single hitch
--though this implies a lot of load (or a too-small line).
I'll try to explain the Two Half Hitches problem:
When finishing off with Two Half Hitches, the inner half hitch is pressed against the loop. The outer half hitch is easily removed, but the inner one is much more difficult if there's a lot of tension. If the object is soft or springy, it will expand when the tension decreases. When you try to work some rope through the remaining half hitch, the object will expand and then pull rope through the loop and further tightens the half hitch you just tried to open.

One solution would be to choose a hitch which can be untied under tension at the first anchor point. Untie this one first and then deal with the two half hitches at the mid-loop afterwards.

I do however like your solution with the rolling hitch. It can be used even in situations where there is no "first anchor point", and the TH is tied with just an end loop.
Title: Re: Trucker's Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: xarax on December 13, 2011, 12:51:09 AM
half hitches seems to jam horrible if there's a lot of tension, or one of the object or cord is soft or springy.

   First, pass the working end through the loop for a second time and lock it there, in between the two bights, as shown in Reply#43 (1), then tie the half hitch around the one, two or all three lines coming from the anchor. This way the half hitch serves now as your second line of defense against slippage, it bears almost no load, so it will never jam.

1  http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1870.msg17364#msg17364
Title: Re: Trucker's Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: xarax on December 13, 2011, 01:45:07 PM
If you do that, you'll have random slack here...

  I have found that, if the rope is elastic enough and long enough, the slack is consumed. With my nylon-based ropes, the line remains tensioned for a long time. I keep tensioned vertical lines from the ceiling to the floor ( 3.3 m, 10 ft) - to test friction hitches around loaded lines. A minimum ammount of slippage through the first,  Versatackle-type lock is in fact welcomed, because it keeps the second, half hitch lock under tension as well.
Title: Re: Trucker's Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: xarax on December 13, 2011, 05:51:30 PM
  You want the second anchor to keep passing the rope fluidly, ideally without friction if that were possible. 

  Why ? The two bights (around the second anchor) communicate, so, eventually, sooner or later, the tensions within them will be equalized, however great the friction forces on the first and/or the second anchor points will be. And it would be safer to have the loads distributed on two points and three lines, rather than one point and two lines, would nt it?
Title: Re: Trucker's Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: xarax on December 13, 2011, 07:10:58 PM
If the slack is not eliminated while you're tying, then you will lose some tension later when the slack does even out. 

  With my somewhat springy nylon-based ropes, and with the lengths I have mentioned, I have not noticed that effect. The tensioned rope remains tensioned, probably because the slack is negligible compared with the length of the rope.

This is easily proven by wrapping rope around something and leaving ample slack in one wrap.  Later, spread that slack over the other wraps and notice the lengths of the other wraps increase.

   Wrong example. In the case you describe, the rope is in touch with the object along its entire length, so the friction ( with the surface of the object) does not let the slack of the one wrap be distributed evenly at each and all other wraps. I suppose that, most of the times, the three short lines that connect the (single or double) tucker s hitch loop with the anchor point are not in touch with the object - and I suspect that you can not make them be so, even if you try, because they are three tensioned parallel lines that not in the same lever.

Anything that moves with the tension of the rope is not an anchor.

   Right. My mistake - I have called the tip of the trucker s hitch loop as an anchor. I was talking about the three lines that connect this point with the (second) anchor.

Around that second anchor, you don't want any friction ideally
...if you keep wrapping the second anchor and the loop using the mechanism of Reply #43, you increase the friction around the second anchor  That's not good because you generate unwanted slack. 

   Again, why ? An already tensioned rope of some length, has enough room to give, and yet remain tensioned, even after the consumption of the small amount of slack we are talking about.

The two bights (around the second anchor) communicate, so, eventually, sooner or later, the tensions within them will be equalized, however great the friction forces on the first and/or the second anchor points will be. And it would be safer to have the loads distributed on two points and three lines, rather than one point and two lines, would nt it?

Title: Re: Trucker's Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: knot4u on December 13, 2011, 08:19:41 PM
I re-read your response.  I think there's another communication gap.  I thought I made it clear, for the problem of unwanted slack, I'm talking about the case of many wraps.  I'm not talking about about the single nip shown in Reply #43.
Title: Re: Trucker's Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: TMCD on December 13, 2011, 10:15:51 PM
I'll try and make either pictures or a video of me tying the TH using the Bag Knot or ABOK 1244. After fooling around with the Bellringer Knot I came to realize you can use either the Constrictor or the Bag Knot tied in the bight and you've got yourself a secure TH. The old problem with the Bellringer or Sheepshank style was the ear could easily be collapsed and the load comprimised. These two knots render the Bellringer secure when you push the bight up through the two crossing turns created by tying them in the bight. 

I've never posted pics on here or made a video but I'll give it a shot when I have some extra time.
Title: Re: Trucker's Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: xarax on December 13, 2011, 10:29:37 PM
the case of many wraps.

  I was always talking about the two opposed bights, and the three lines between the (second) anchor point and the tip of the loop. The rope, after the knot nub of of the midline loop, goes two times around the anchor, but I do not believe that two is "many" :) .

   P.S. I am not emotionally attached to any idea... if it is not proven to be true, that is, experimentally  proven to be part of the physical reality  :) ( So, now ( 20I1-12-13),  I admit I am emotionally attached to the Higgs mechanism !  :) )
Title: Re: Trucker Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: Andy on December 09, 2012, 11:09:40 AM
[EDIT: I did reply "in a vacuum". It looks like that because Knot4U deleted his post. Sorry for the confusing reading.  :'( ]

Quote
tie multiple Trucker Hitches in a series

I do that all the time when hauling construction timber (for instance). Not so much going back to the same loop to increase purchase, as (i) a single truckie is usually tight enough for short distances, (ii) the tension on the (old) rope adds up and (iii) the material can get damaged; but going across / around the cargo and to another anchor point to tie the next truckie. I too love that. This is the method I was taught, we had to tie heavy garbage bins onto the ute / pickup and undo the truckie quite often to add and unload bins, so it had to be fast and efficient.

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Just so we're on the same page, you're talking about ABOK #173.

I may be missing something, but I don't see ABOK #173 on that video (or my method). On 173, the bight goes through a clove hitch / two half hitches. What the video and I are doing is a quick twist of the rope, like the nipping part of a bowline, except twisted twice. Actually a single twist would probably do. Once tightened, it does not settle into 173, it is a different configuration altogether.
You could pass the bight through a clove hitch (173), but making it would probably require two hands, while making the double twist (nip) only requires one hand. Besides, the bight is usually secured to the tensioned rope with a half hitch, so there is no need for anything stronger than that twist / nipping turn.

Is this making sense to you? It really seems to me that we are talking about different things.
Title: Re: Trucker Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: TMCD on December 09, 2012, 02:53:47 PM
Try tying ABOK 173 and then pull hard on the ear, it collapses into your method and the man on the video's method. I normally use 173 as it's shown in Ashley's book though, just running the bight through the Clove Hitch. If you're not satisfied with that, add a third hitch for a load that ultra heavy.
Title: Re: Trucker Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: Andy on December 09, 2012, 07:11:17 PM
[EDIT: I did not post ten messages in a row. It looks like that because Knot4U deleted his posts. Sorry for the confusing reading. :o ]

Hi TMCD, thanks for writing.

Quote
pull hard on the ear, it collapses into your method and the man on the video's

I am not getting that result at all. The clove hitch gives me two "bowline-type nips" on the bite that passes through it, or, if it collapses into something more compact, some kind of "X" nip.
The method shown on the video and on my old truckie illustrations (http://www.asiteaboutnothing.net/cr_most-useful-knots.html#truckies-knot) (which I'd like to improve some day) produces a single nip.

If 173 is tied improperly (not paying close attention to how the clove hitch is formed and making a "fake clove hitch"), it does collapse into a single nip (172).

172 is a bit closer to our double twist---it's what you would get if you did a single twist. But it still isn't the double twist.

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The man in the video is tying ABOK 173, as TMCD explained.

Hi Knot4U, no, I don't think so, as explained above.

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The knot is topologically the same as ABOK 173. 

I cannot agree.

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Play around with with it for awhile with various tying methods.

I have. I also have been using the truckie shown on the video for many years.

Can I request the same of you (to play around with these two methods)? Making sure to do an exact 173 as illustrated in ABOK, and an exact double twist as shown on the video. They are topologically quite distinct.

EDIT: let me add that I am always happy to be proved wrong, so don't hesitate to insist if you are able to carefully double check the two methods and satisfy yourself that they are topologically equivalent.
Title: Re: Trucker Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: Andy on December 09, 2012, 07:32:00 PM
[EDIT: I did not post ten messages in a row. It looks like that because Knot4U deleted his posts. Sorry for the confusing reading. :o ]

The man in the video is tying ABOK 173, as TMCD explained.  The knot in the video is just a different, more secure dressing than what ABOK shows.  The knot is topologically the same as ABOK 173.

To drive the point home: if you guys are right, then you have discovered a revolutionary way of tying a clove hitch! All this time, people have been believing that to form the clove in the bight, you need to lay one loop on top of a mirror loop. But we were all wrong, because apparently all you really need is a double twist!   ;D

I hope I don't seem too biting here, but for some reason, on this very thread I have found once already that points don't get made unless one stands one's ground, witness to which my several replies, near the top of the thread (http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1870.msg12741#msg12741), to posts that have been deleted, which baffles me.

[Edit: corrected typo: "to" -> "don't"]
Title: Re: Trucker Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: Andy on December 09, 2012, 08:06:02 PM
[EDIT: I did not post ten messages in a row. It looks like that because Knot4U deleted his posts. Sorry for the confusing reading. :o ]

Quote
Andy, to go even further, when I tie the knot shown in the video, I begin like I'm tying a one-handed Bowline by using the bight.  Then, I use the ear to tie another Half Hitch, as shown in the video.  The Clove Hitch (or Two Half Hitches) in there would not be readily to anybody watching.

Hi Knot4U, the two half hitches are not in the video. Watch again, he just twists twice in the same direction, in the same way that one turns a screw.
Title: Re: Trucker Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: Andy on December 09, 2012, 11:55:03 PM
[EDIT: I did not post ten messages in a row. It looks like that because Knot4U deleted his posts. Sorry for the confusing reading. :o ]

Quote
Topologically (mathematically), the Two Half Hitches ARE there.

They definitely are not. Otherwise, you have found a way to make a clove hitch by twisting a rope twice in the same direction. Have you?

Quote
we really are just talking about different ways of tying

Well yes, precisely, this is what the Trucker Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie thread is about: different ways of tying. As far as I can tell, the "double twist" which is shown on the video and on my page has not been ranked on your list of "Winners and Losers". Neither is it equivalent to the bell ringer (unless you want to call it a "double bell ringer", but it is still neither 172 nor 173). It is a different hitch.

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WINNERS!

    Span Loop (ABOK #1049)
    Bell Ringer + Half Hitch Lock (ABOK #173)
    Bowline With A Bight (ABOK #1074)
    Butterfly (ABOK #1053) if dressed right
    Double/Triple Butterfly
    Scrap rope as sheave http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3878.0
    Real sheave on a loop
    Steel ring on a loop
    Steel thimble on a loop



Losers

    Bell Ringer (ABOK #172)
    Bowline (ABOK#1010)
    Bowline on the Bight (ABOK #1080)
    Figure 8 Loop (ABOK#1047)
    Directional Figure 8 (ABOK#1058)
    All slip loops, including...
    Slipped Overhand
    Slipped Figure 8
    Slipped Figure 9
    Slipped Figure 10
    Slipped Multi-Twist
    Etc.
Title: Re: Trucker Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: Andy on December 10, 2012, 06:01:45 AM
[EDIT: I did not post ten messages in a row. It looks like that because Knot4U deleted his posts. Sorry for the confusing reading. :o ]

And since a picture is worth a thousand words...

1. Double twist awaiting the bight.
2. Tightened double twist.

Only 4 attachments allowed per post, so look for 3 pictures with ABOK 173 in the next post.
Title: Re: Trucker Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: Andy on December 10, 2012, 06:11:32 AM
This post is a companion to the previous one, to contrast the "double twist" structure with ABOK 173.

1. Clove hitch awaiting the bight (ABOK 173)
2. Tightened 173, worked "open"
3. Tightened 173, worked "compact"

Either way, you can see that this has nothing to do with the double twist, whether visually, topologically, mathematically, psychologically, anthropologically, gastronomically or otherwise.  ;)

So Knot4U, to get back to the question, I would be curious to know how you would rank the method on the video (the double twist) in the winners and losers. Or maybe you've already ranked it as the "bell ringer", but in that case that is not the correct name as it is neither 172 nor 173. One could call it a Double Bell Ringer (double 172), but even that would be confusing as "double" could mean two turns as in the double bowline, as opposed to two corkscrew twists.

That "double twist" hitch probably has a name, I just haven't looked in ABOK.

I hope we now have all the tools in hand to make some progress on this topic then move on.
And yes, I will be very interested in seeing your video of your alternate method when it is ready. Thank you very much for offering.

Wishing you a beautiful week,
Regards

Andy
Title: Re: Trucker Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: Andy on December 10, 2012, 07:48:34 AM
[EDIT: I did not post ten messages in a row. It looks like that because Knot4U deleted his posts. Sorry for the confusing reading. :o ]

Hi Knot4U,

The source of the confusion is now clear. You believe that the guy in the video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gcz-D0kxiwo) ties the knot shown in my second series of pictures (http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1870.msg25307#msg25307) (a clove hitch, 173). He does not. Watch it again closely. You will see that he twists twice in the same direction, the same as my first series of pictures (http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1870.msg25306#msg25306): a "double twist".

Quote
You are confused by how the guy is tying in the video.

Knot4U, you are most definitely confused by how the guy is tying in the video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gcz-D0kxiwo).
(...confused, unless of course you are just refusing to be wrong. I used to have a wife who suffered from that condition. If it afflicts you as well, sorry, and kindly let me know, it will save us time now and in the future.   ;D )

Quote
The original twisting he does is not a double twist if you follow the video closely.

The twisting he does is a double twist, if you follow the video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gcz-D0kxiwo) closely.

See the attached screenshot from the video. He has twisted clockwise once, and he is about to twist clockwise a second time.

Quote
> Otherwise, you have found a way to make a clove hitch by twisting a rope twice in the same direction. Have you?

Well, that's how you tie a Clove on a bight...

You cannot possibly be telling me that you make a clove on the bight by twisting the rope twice in the same direction (corkscrew twist as shown in my first picture).

Quote
Meanwhile, the knot in Ashley clearly has Two Half Hitches (Clove) in there.

I have never disputed that. That knot in Ashley just has nothing to do with the knot in the video.

Quote
TMCD has basically said the same thing.

TMCD has not said anything since the last few posts when I have been making it clearer and clearer. TMCD might very well change his mind.

Quote
Also, I am the one who discovered the video

That's not an argument. You're not the man in the video, so you're in no better position to tell us what he is doing. See the screenshot.

Quote
I'm running out of ways to say this.

For the record you have also changed what you have been saying. Originally you said that my double twist was the same as ABOK 173. It doesn't sound like you are saying this anymore.

Anyhow, it's excellent that you are running out of ways to say what you are saying.
Please see the screenshot, it's time to change your mind.

Incidentally, I'll be happy to say I was a moron if someone can change my mind.

Quote
Anyway, you have what works for you, and that's all that matters.

Well, yes and no. This is a thread about the best way to tie a truckie, and we're still not able to have a discussion about the double twist.

Title: Re: Trucker Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: Andy on December 10, 2012, 10:02:19 AM
[EDIT: I did not post ten messages in a row. It looks like that because Knot4U deleted his posts. Sorry for the confusing reading. :o ]

Hi Knot4U,

Quote
Andy, I guess everybody else here is wrong, and you are right.
[emphasis added]

Who is "everybody"? Knot4U, knot4u and Knot4U?

By the way, for the record, I am replying to a post you have deleted.
The last time we tried to have a discussion, which was at the beginning of this thread (http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1870.msg12755#msg12755), we also disagreed. It seems that you (or someone with control over your account) later deleted all your posts from that discussion. You had also changed your story several times in mid-air. I had the courtesy not to point out the inconsistency between your consecutive posts. But the record of the conversation was erased. It's easy to look right when you delete your half of a conversation, thereby emphasizing the parts where your courteous counterpart agrees with you. But what is the point of looking right? I don't see one. I'd rather learn something than look right.

Quote
He's not making a double twist.

That's funny, because I downloaded the video and watched it in slow motion. That's how I got that beautiful screenshot I sent you. He is making a double twist.

Quote
For crying out, man!

Crying out has nothing to do with it. I watched the video is slow motion, and I don't see what you are seeing. I see a double twist. I also turned up the volume, and I don't hear him crying out.

Quote
> Originally you said that my double twist was the same as ABOK 173. It doesn't sound like you are saying this anymore.

What in the world are you talking about?

For instance, I am talking about this quote from message 25280:
"Try tying ABOK 173 and then pull hard on the ear, it collapses into your method and the man on the video's method."
Or, in message 25276, quoting my question of "What do you call my double twist secured by a half hitch", you replied: "Just so we're on the same page, you're talking about ABOK #173".

This is what in the world I mean by "Originally you said that my double twist was the same as ABOK 173".

Now you can go edit that out of your posts if you like. Sadly, anyone who reads this thread can see who is editing their posts. It's not so easy to see who is deleting, so perhaps you'd like to try that again.

And by the way, it's not a big deal. It's okay that by getting new information your position has evolved. That's absolutely normal. What is less normal is insisting on appearing consistent and infallible. But hey, "less normal" is okay too. Jimmi Hendrix wasn't normal was he?

Quote
How many times are not going to read my posts?

Not only do I read your posts, I remember what you have posted.

Quote
Not trying to be mean, do you have a reading comprehension problem?

Not that I know.

Knot4U, I don't have a problem with you talking down to me (as you have been doing for much of this convo). Please feel free to continue. Just remember to breathe, and please do call 911 if you start feeling some chest pains.

Regards,

Andy
Title: Re: Trucker Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: Andy on December 10, 2012, 10:19:44 AM
[EDIT: I did not post ten messages in a row. It looks like that because Knot4U deleted his posts. Sorry for the confusing reading. :o ]

Quote
tie your double twist plus a Half Hitch on the ear, and try to get the resulting knot in the video.

Thanks, that is what I do all the time. I happen to tie truckies on a nearly daily basis.

Quote
You won't get it.

I have been getting it for a great many years, but hey, since the world supposed to end in 13 days, everything is possible, and this knot I have tied a thousand times, and that was passed down to me by professional garbage collectors, might just blow up in flames when I try to tie it again tomorrow.

Quote
You have made this way more complicated than it needs to be.

Er... really? The only simpler way to bite the bight would be a single twist (172). I have never seen a less complicated way, that's why I call it the "quickie truckie".

By the way, in case that wasn't clear already, I am not presenting myself as a knot expert. I am a knot lover who enjoys this forum because it is frequented by knot experts (as well as others who like me are not experts). I am here seeking knowledge, and I do pay close attention to what people write to me. So it saddens me when a conversation seems to get hopelessly stuck, as today, as it impedes the knowledge seeking.
(Please don't shoot me if that sounded pompous, this is just how I feel.)
Title: Re: Trucker Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: Andy on December 10, 2012, 10:22:33 AM
[EDIT: I did not post ten messages in a row. It looks like that because Knot4U deleted his posts. Sorry for the confusing reading. :o ]

Quote
When you finally realize you're wrong, I expect an apology.

Of course.
Rest at peace, I don't expect the same of you.
Title: Re: Trucker Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: Sweeney on December 10, 2012, 11:09:17 AM
Now that Knot4u and Andy seem to have reached an impasse I thought I throw in two pennyworth and say that you're maybe both right and you're both wrong! (That should get you two to agree if only because you both think I'm wrong....).

Starting with ABOK 172 the half hitch around the "ear" is tied using the standing part (let's agree for the sake of argument that the part from the belfry so to speak is the standing part). A hard pull on this will, like any half hitch, cause it to flip so that the hitch is tied using the ear around the standing part - and it can be flipped back to it's original state. This takes quite a tug but it will happen both ways - I don't see how you can do this pulling the ear from ABOK 172, it has to be the standing part. This appears to be at the nub of the argument because ABOK 173 is the same as 172 with a second half hitch added - for testing this explanation ABOK 172 is easier to use.

Now in the video I can see that the person tying the hitch ties ABOK 172 but then instead of tying 173 as illustrated by Ashley he uses the ear to tie a half hitch around the standing part - the flipped version of ABOK 173 and arguably not the same knot but a transformation of it - but the difference is a difference in orientation rather than a fundamental difference in the knot. I don't see any "twisting" involved save in the way the half hitches are formed perhaps.

Does that help or fan the flames into life again?

Barry
Title: Re: Trucker Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: Sweeney on December 10, 2012, 11:58:59 AM
The pulley of that Trucker Hitch is equivalent to ABOK #173 and also Andy's knot shown here:

Agreed, knot4u, but as I tried to explain whilst the structures are, as you rightly say, equivalent they are not exactly the same. But the difference is only in the way in which the second half hitch is oriented - and I prefer this method as it certainly seems more secure than ABOK 173 as illustrated.

Barry
Title: Re: Trucker Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: TMCD on December 10, 2012, 05:36:01 PM
For clarification's sake, what's the difference between Andy's method of tying the TH and the method shown in the video with the man tying off the load of logs?? Don't they both end up with the same result or am I missing something here? As I said above, you can also collapse ABOK 173 into the exact same result...with the half hitch around the standing part. It's just proves there's more than one way to skin this cat.

Andy's version differs with the double twist and that's all if I'm seeing things correctly. 
Title: Re: Trucker Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: TMCD on December 10, 2012, 07:53:59 PM
What were you and Andy arguing about? I've read through the threads and it seems like Andy doesn't want to admit that his knot and the knot in the video are the same knot....what's the point of contention?

Title: Re: Trucker Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: Andy on December 10, 2012, 11:29:00 PM
Hello everyone.

Quote
it seems like Andy doesn't want to admit that his knot and the knot in the video are the same knot.

Hi TMCD, to the contrary. I have been saying repeatedly that they are exactly the same knot, tied in exactly the same fashion, and that the man in the video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gcz-D0kxiwo) ties the loop through which he pushes the bight (seconds 15 to 19) by twisting a bight of rope twice in a clockwise direction (as if he were driving a screw). That is what I see both at normal speed and in slow motion.

Knot4U has argued that the man in the video does not make that double twist, but fumbles the clove hitch formation. For clarity's sake, here are photos of what I call a "double twist" (http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1870.msg25306#msg25306), and here are photos of a clove hitch formation (http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1870.msg25307#msg25307).

That is the first point of debate. My impression is that at this stage no one is arguing that a "double twist", as shown in the first series of pictures in the paragraph above, result in ABOK 173---but that impression may be wrong.

At this stage, there does not seem to be any point in arguing about what the guy in the video is doing. I live on the planet where it is blindingly obvious that he is twisting twice in a corkscrew direction (seconds 15 to 19). If someone knows this man (called Lee Bundy according to the YouTube channel), maybe one day we will know for sure.

Knot4U, thank you for making a video. What a fantastic way of sharing your knot thoughts. I wish I was equipped to do the same.

Knot4U, I also see that you are not alone on the planet where people do not see a "double twist" in the video, and I apologize if I have implied that you were.
I would however be surprised to hear someone saying "yes, I did watch the video in slow motion between seconds 15 and 19, and he is not twisting twice in a clockwise direction". In case anyone is interested, I have uploaded a temporary copy of the video (http://yu8.us/temp/TruckersHitch.mp4) here (it is easier to freeze frames when you download it). I will delete it in a few days so there is no copyright question.

Quote
I can see that the person tying the hitch ties ABOK 172

Hi Barry, I see that too (first twist, seconds 15-16), then I see him twisting a second time (seconds 19-20).

Quote
he uses the ear to tie a half hitch around the standing part

Are you saying that assuming a single twist, then the securing hitch with the ear contributes to completing a clove hitch?

Wishing you all a beautiful day,

Andy
Title: Re: Trucker Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: Andy on December 10, 2012, 11:42:24 PM
And now, pictures of what I really want to discuss: the double twist.
(I argue that this is exactly what the man in the video does, but there is no agreement on that, so let's not focus on that question for a moment.)

Pic 1: the bight going through a double twist.
Pic 2: the same, tightened without any particular attention to dressing.
Pic 3: optionally, secured with a half-hitch made with the ear. I do this nine times out of ten.

For orientation, the red circle represents one of the anchor points. The other anchor point would be on the right side of the rope. To tighten, you pull the left rope.

This method is both related to 172 and to the sheepshank. I don't know the name for the double twist hitch.

Curious to know if anyone else uses this. If not, what advantage they see to an alternate method.
The benefit I see to this method is best shown by Pic 1: the double twist is frighteningly fast to make. And the hitch is secure.

Peace,

Andy
Title: Re: Trucker Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: TMCD on December 11, 2012, 01:10:27 AM
I'm of the opinion that the double twist version is not an upgrade. Ashley tells us several times in his knot bible that some people will throw in an extra turn, tuck, twist etc., when one would've done just fine. I see this scenario fitting exactly what Ashley was referring to when he made those remarks in his book.

Title: Re: Trucker Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: Andy on December 11, 2012, 04:31:25 AM
Quote
I'm of the opinion that the double twist version is not an upgrade.

Hi TMCD,

Thanks for your message.

My instinct about extra things being added to common knots is similar to yours.
In this case, I am not aware that the second twist would be a variation on any "trucker" or "wagoner's hitch" mentioned in Ashley. Yes it resembles 172 and 1148 with an extra twist, these are presented as Bell ringer's knots rather than truckies, and of those knots Ashley says that "The purpose is to keep the rope from the belfry deck when the bell is not in use." Hardly the same heavy duty job as the one required by a trucker's hitch, which will place enormous tension on that portion of "shortened rope".

In fact, unless I am misunderstanding, this thread started by PwH (http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1736.0) suggests that a double twist is the standard method of tying a truckie in the UK:
[EDIT: nope, PwH tells me that he was talking about something quite different: a twist in the pulley eye, before reeving the downhaul rope, which is also a different "choreography" to the video, where the downhaul is "pre-reeved".]

Quote
Over here in England it is invariably tied as the first end of a short sheepshank, with a twist put in the eye to firm it up, then a bight of the W E pushed thru

This would explain why the truckie was shown to me like that in Australia.

Also, I do have day-to-day experience tying truckies, both with one twist and with two. I have experimented with one twist because when the truckie was taught to me a long time ago, I was told that "one twist can be enough, but it is not as strong." That matches my experience exactly---especially when you don't secure the ear with a half hitch. This may not count for much in an exchange of words, but that is my real-life experience. That's why I was hoping to see more discussion of this simple method. On the other hand, that discussion is only meaningful if others also have experience with (or experiment with) various methods.

Wishing you a beautiful week,

Andy

Title: Re: Trucker Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: Sweeney on December 11, 2012, 12:11:02 PM

Curious to know if anyone else uses this. If not, what advantage they see to an alternate method.
The benefit I see to this method is best shown by Pic 1: the double twist is frighteningly fast to make. And the hitch is secure.
Hi Andy

Now that you've posted pictures (and I've looked at the video another 4 times!) I can see what you mean though I see this as a "full twist" rather than a "double twist" (think of a round turn) though that doesn't make any difference to what it actually is. I think knot4u and I were looking for the wrong thing. No matter let's get to the real question. I've just tried the full twist against the half hitch in a couple of pieces of cord about 4mm (one braided nylon the other 3 strand cotton) tied as if ABOK 172 the full (double if you prefer) twist seems to flip off much more easily than the half hitch - adding a locking half hitch masks this. As always YMMV!

In another thread (http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3878.0 (http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3878.0)) knot4u proposed a quite different method using a piece of scrap rope to save wear. It's well worth considering because not least, like ABOK 173, it can be tied without needing access to the end of the main rope and takes no more time to tie.

Barry
Title: Re: Trucker Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: Andy on December 11, 2012, 08:33:18 PM
Hi Barry,

Thank you very much for taking the time to see that "double twist" in the video (double compared to a sheepshank or bowline nip). It's nice to know I'm not raving mad. ;D

Thank you also for sharing your test results in 4mm material. So in these thinner ropes you are finding that a single twist holds better than two. Interesting! I will experiment with the new rope I bought last week for the truck (8mm polyester). It is thicker as tends to be the case for truckies. You've made me curious to see if it behaves differently from my old 8mm polyprop rope. Anyhow, I dutifully note the +1 on the single twist's score sheet.

Last, thank you for sharing the link to Knot4U's "scrap rope" method. What a fun idea. I love the picture of the stopper and cow sheave.

Wishing you all a beautiful day,

Andy
Title: Re: Trucker Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: Andy on December 12, 2012, 12:08:00 AM
Hi Knot4U,

Thank you for sharing your thoughts.
That's a really interesting and clever way of looking at it.
Man, you seem really passionate about your knots, you dissect them like a biologist.

I think you've just about convinced me and converted me to the single twist.
I'll make an effort to only use that in the next month and see how that feels.

Thanks again.

Regards,

Andy
Title: Re: Trucker Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: TMCD on December 12, 2012, 10:43:20 PM
Very well put Knot4U, my line of thinking was/is very similar to yours regarding this subject.
Title: Re: Trucker Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: Andy on December 18, 2012, 10:40:40 AM
Hi TMCD,

Quote
I'm of the opinion that the double twist version is not an upgrade.
Quote
Very well put Knot4U, my line of thinking was/is very similar to yours regarding this subject.

Interestingly, I have come across a post (http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3953.0) where you said you "love the Siberian Hitch".

If you look at Roo's diagrams (http://notableknotindex.webs.com/haltersiberian.html), you will see that the Siberian, compared with the Halter hitch, is a perfect analogy to the "double twist" I've been talking about for the truckie. In both cases, you have to decide between pushing a bight through the eye of a single twist, or through the eye of a double twist.

But you've made it clear that you despise double twists. Does this mean that since July you've changed your mind on the Siberian? Or that you see something fundamentally different in the Siberian's double twist compared with the truckie's double twist? Or that your thinking is still evolving on this matter?

Regards,

Andy
Title: Re: Trucker Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: Andy on December 23, 2012, 12:21:17 AM
Hi Knot4U,

Quote
Thus, one turn is it.

I've been experimenting with making a single turn for about a week now. So far no complaints. :)

Wishing you a fun weekend and relaxing holiday season.
Title: Re: Trucker Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: Keystoner on December 30, 2012, 12:57:02 AM
Introduction

First, let me introduce myself.  In 1985, at the age of 14, I took possession of, and never returned, the book Klutz Book of Knots, from my father's desk.  I've had an interest ever since.  I'm familiar with the ABOK book, but I haven't treated myself to that expensive book yet.  A few years ago I bought the book Knots, by Richard Hopkins.   A couple months ago it occurred to me to look up the Klutz book for a friend, who has a 14 year old son.  I bought the kid the book and tried to inspire him the way it did me.  He didn't get bitten by the bug but my friend did.  He's been practicing and texting me about various knots ever since.  As a result, my knot passion is as high as ever.  It has brought me to this forum.  I'm still a hack but I'm eager to improve.  This Trucker's Hitch thread and the associated YouTube videos have taken up much of my free time the last couple weeks.

The Fixed Loop

The Klutz book showed a slipped overhand loop.  I like the arguments against using such a knot (losing tension) and was pleased to learn the Alpine Butterfly Knot.  What is the name of the fixed loop used in the following video?: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8N6blmw006U

Pros/Cons?

The Clove Hitch

There was some debate as to the desirability of using a Clove Hitch to initially fix the rope.  I liked the following video for its overall presentation of a Trucker's Hitch: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=drkcOzCjuuU
This fellow ties a Clove Hitch but adds a Half Hitch.  Does the addition of the Half Hitch appeal to those who discourage the Clove Hitch?

The Great Lee Bundy

In this thread, this fellow seems to have gained legendary status with the combination of knots in his Trucker's Hitch (his combo is very similar to the fellow in the linked video just above).  I think his combo deserves his name, Lee's Trucker's Hitch: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gcz-D0kxiwo

I'm not taking sides in the flame war that occurred regarding the dis/advantage of single vs. double turns.  However, I did NOT see a double twist corkscrew turn prior to the insertion of the bight.  I watched it many times over the last week.  Please pardon my ignorance as to the proper lexicon.  Here's what I saw Lee do (I believe someone said something similar):  he forms a loop (possibly the first purported twist?) and then turns it to expose the back of the loop (possibly the second purported twist?) in order to insert the bight.  To me this assembly appears identical to what is done when tying a Bowline (without going around and reinserting the bight, of course).  By the way, in recent comments to the video, Lee was alerted to this thread and was asked whether a double twist corkscrew turn was performed.  A representative at trailblazesonline answered in the negative.

Maintaining Tension

I have questions about Lee's Trucker's Hitch and Trucker's Hitches in general.  With a fixed midline loop, what is the best way to maintain tension while finally tying off?  In other words, the working part (the part that is hauled or heaved? Lexicon?) is passing through an open loop.  As soon as I stop heaving and let up to tie the two half hitches I'm losing tension.  How can I avoid this?

To try to maintain tension, I've tried the following when tying Lee's combo.  After inserting the bight through the nip/loop, I pull on the leg of the bight that snugs up the loop through which the working part passes.  Basically, that loop (the fixed loop in other variations) is cinched down to the diameter of the running part in order to snug it.  This can be done with (what has been so discouraged in this thread) a slipped knot as well.  It's harder to untie.  Is this a good technique or should I follow Lee and leave the loop open?

Thanks all.  I hope to be spending more time on the forum.
Title: Re: Trucker Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: TMCD on January 03, 2013, 06:09:28 PM
Keystoner,
Your reply deserves a response on this subject that's obviously VERY important to us knotheads by the size of the thread. I'll give it a short go and others may chime in with more information.

To answer your last question about how to not lose tension when tying off the final half hitches, you simply take the working end and run it through the midline knot twice, not the traditional method of one time only. By doing this, you also increase your mechanical advantage and it normally gives you a "selflocking" Trucker's Hitch, allowing you to tie off without losing much if any tension. If you choose to only pass it through the midline loop once, the traditional way, you'll have to really pinch down with your fingers to hold the tension.

Of the three methods you linked, I like the middle method the best. That guy's using ABOK 173, which is using the Clove Hitch as the midline loop, WAY more secure than ABOK 172. He's tying TWO Trucker's Hitches, creating at least a theoretical 6-1 mechanical advantage...it's one beast of a TH and my favorite on you tube. If you're moving furniture, tables, wood or anything that needs tied down, you can't go wrong with that setup IMO...Bundy's Trucker Hitch is a good one too...I just prefer the beauty of ABOK 173. I also like the extra half hitch he throws on his anchor Cloves, giving the traditional Clove Hitch much more security.
Title: Re: Trucker Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: Dan_Lehman on January 03, 2013, 06:52:31 PM
To be clear about this mechanism of a double twist, I've linked Andy's pic below.
/.../
http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1870.0;attach=8735;image (http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1870.0;attach=8735;image)
Thanks for that.  But, the image shows the formation/start,
not the result, which is a crossing knot vice a nipping turn.

.:. IMO, the former is more stable --and equally functional--
than the latter.

Quote
The only thing an extra twist does is reduce the constricting force of the nip,
and thereby reduce security.
And of course, given my thoughts above, I disagree;
I see that the crossing-knot gives more stability to equally adequate
nip, and hence is a better assurance of the overall structure working.

Quote
Tie a Figure 8 Stopper, and compare that to a Figure 9 Stopper, a Figure 10 Stopper,
... and a Figure 99 Stopper.  Good luck on getting a Figure 99 to jam or otherwise to hold at all.
???  Acctually, I happen to be focused on stoppers at the moment,
re use in rockclimbing kernmantle (and other) ropes to "back up"
some other structure, to provide an extra security against untying.
And what the stevedore knot gives in advantage over the fig.8 stopper
is greater security (not really much greater bulk, though more mass):
the extra wraps better grip the SPart, which in turn then retains
nip on the tail.  Even so, working with stiff rope can be difficult.

(There is some help in that for the uses I'm focusing on, one will
typically be tying the stopper around a rope and so have one
extra diameter to stuff within the bending-resistant wraps!)
The standard "half a fisherman's" strangle knot (i.e., with just
one overwrap) is too vulnerable to what I call "sympathetic loosening"
in which both ends ease back into the knot and effect a significant
loosening; wheres the stevedore-like construction puts the wraps
towards locking one end, which in turn nips secure the other;
some other knots seem better at not so readily loosening on
a little relaxation of tension.)

Quote
Through this process of extrapolation, I'm comfortable with saying one twist is the point of maximum constriction.

Hmmm, I think that Xarax presented an orientation of a double
(= 2 turns) nipping loop that should give greater nip, and maybe
more stability, to boot.  (For myself, I remain leery of these simple
structures, and prefer a *real* knot, such as the slip-knot.)


--dl*
====
Title: Re: Trucker Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: Andy on January 03, 2013, 07:26:33 PM
Update: still experimenting with the single twist. Two trips to the timber yard yesterday, two truckies each. One slipped when I leaned back to put my weight on it (quite a jolt!), which never happened to me with the double twist. But it's a new rope, so I can't be sure whether to blame the single twist or the rope. (This was not my new white 8mm polyester shown on the picture Dan linked to, but my new black-orange 8mm polypro "California truck rope"). Will keep observing.

Quote
But, the image shows the formation/start, not the result

Great point. Once you pull, the double twist changes configuration and settles into something quite different from the single.

Quote
I think that Xarax presented an orientation of a double (= 2 turns) nipping loop that should give greater nip, and maybe more stability

This reminds me now reading in a book that the "double bowline" (the one with two nips, not two loops) is more stable than the single. Not that it makes it true of course. But I've believed that for a number of years. Always interested in changing my beliefs when new information comes in, so we'll see. Of course this is quite different from a double twist.
Title: Re: Trucker Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: Keystoner on January 04, 2013, 12:45:04 AM
Thank you for responding.  I was beginning to think I was blacklisted after only one post.

To answer your last question about how to not lose tension when tying off the final half hitches, you simply take the working end and run it through the midline knot twice, not the traditional method of one time only.

Do you mean: go through the fixed loop, cinch down, back around the support, back through the fixed loop for the second time (like a versatackle), cinch down, and then two half hitches -or- twice through the fixed loop (like a round turn), cinch down, and then two half hitches?  Interesting.  (I'm writing "two half hitches" as one example of the final tying off.) 

Did you understand what I was trying to suggest about cinching up the loop around the running part to increase friction and reduce tension loss?  What do you think?

Bundy's Trucker Hitch is a good one too...I just prefer the beauty of ABOK 173. I also like the extra half hitch he throws on his anchor Cloves, giving the traditional Clove Hitch much more security.

As I observed:  The Asian fellow uses a Clove Hitch (with a gap between the two nips--as the Austrailian fellow on the wood deck video does--or are we calling this a Sheepshank version?).  Lee Bundy doesn't use a Clove Hitch since he doesn't use two nips; he uses one, similar to a Bowline.  [Keystoner now puts on flame retardant suit...]  He then ties the extra half hitch with the bight that he passed through the single Bowline nip.

This fellow is a great teacher:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PjIi46dZ08M
He ties the same mid-line knot as Lee (one single nip), except that he doesn't tie a half hitch with the bight for extra security.  What I love about this video is that I just learned how to achieve that single nip without explicity forming it prior to insertion of the bight--a new way for me to form a Bowline as well!
Title: Re: Trucker Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: Keystoner on January 04, 2013, 12:58:03 AM
Update: still experimenting with the single twist. Two trips to the timber yard yesterday, two truckies each. One slipped when I leaned back to put my weight on it (quite a jolt!), which never happened to me with the double twist.

Hello Andy.  What I noticed with some YouTube tyers who use a single nip, like Lee, but don't secure the bight with a half hitch like Lee, is that they grab the bight and push/hold it up as they haul the working end down.  This should help prevent the slippage you experienced above.  The Asian fellow (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=drkcOzCjuuU) uses the two nip/clove hitch variation, but he pushes/holds the bight up to prevent slippage.  He says, "Make sure you leave this one up and pull."
Title: Re: Trucker Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: TMCD on January 04, 2013, 04:57:50 AM
Keystoner,
What I meant was making a round turn and then cinching down. By taking the working end through the mid line loop twice, it forms a self locking feature similar to the Versatackle and you don't lose tension. It's very easy at that point to tie a couple of half hitches because you don't have to worry about losing tension, it's self locked. The Australian guy actually demonstrates this method in his video.

Now one thing I tend to do when tying the Trucker's Hitch using ABOK 173 (Clove Hitch), is that I push the Clove Hitch together nice and firm, similar to what it would appear like tied to a rail. Most people seem to let the two nips get wide or far apart, I make the knot appear just like an ordinary CH tied to a rail or ring.
Title: Re: Trucker Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: Keystoner on January 05, 2013, 02:45:30 AM
The discussion about double twist and single twist is irrelevant after you add a Half Hitch by using the ear of the Bell Ringer.  I always add that Half Hitch.  So, I don't know why I got involved with that discussion in the first place.

Considering I used boot laces to observe this, take it for what it's worth...

I've gathered that you're a fan of Lee's Trucker's Hitch.  So am I.  When practicing it with boot laces (I bought them at a Timberland shoe store for the specific purpose of practicing knots!), I've caused the single nip (bowline-similar-loop) to collapse.  The half hitched bight (your ear of the Bell Ringer) remained intact and functional (the TH still worked!), but the nip disintegrated beneath the half hitched bight.  Perhaps in rope where this may be susceptible, tying the second nip (the clove hitch formation that TMCD favors here) would be prudent.  I agree with you though that no corkscrew twisting is advantageous.
Title: Re: Trucker Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: Andy on January 05, 2013, 04:59:29 AM
Quote
I agree with you though that no corkscrew twisting is advantageous.

I, on the other hand, have been tying truckies with real rope on real trucks to hold real cargo on a nearly daily basis for years and years, and I am still not convinced that there is no advantage to the double twist, as my post from the other day mentions, but that probably doesn't count. And thanks for your advice to tie "Lee's half hitch" but I have been doing that for a long time, and it is definitely not "Lee's trucker's hitch", it's a common way of tying it that has been discussed at length.
Title: ~Sigh~
Post by: Keystoner on January 05, 2013, 05:34:36 AM
but that probably doesn't count.

Of course it counts.  I don't doubt that your corkscrews work for you.

And thanks for your advice to tie "Lee's half hitch" but I have been doing that for a long time, and it is definitely not "Lee's trucker's hitch", it's a common way of tying it that has been discussed at length.

You may have misunderstood.  My advice was definitely not to tie "Lee's half hitch."  My advice was that if you use a single nip like Lee but don't tie the securing half hitch with the bight like Lee, then hold the bight up (like the Asian fellow) as you haul the working end down to help prevent the single nip from slipping, as you have experienced and pointed out in your post.

Calling it Lee's Trucker's Hitch is a convenient way to distinguish the plethora of YouTube videos.
Title: Re: Trucker Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: Andy on January 05, 2013, 06:43:55 AM
Thanks for your reply Keystoner, wishing you a fun weekend.
Title: Re: Trucker Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: Keystoner on January 07, 2013, 06:07:40 AM
I can tell you the dressing in my video above is topologically the same as the Clove dressing.  They're both ABOK #173.  This concept is explained several times in this thread.  However, the dressing in my video (extra [emphasis added] Half Hitch by using ear) is more secure and easier to untie than the Clove dressing.

Gotcha.  As I understand what you're saying:

Lee:  a single nip (a la a Bowline) + extra Half Hitch with ear. 
knot4u: two nips (a la a Clove Hitch) + extra Half Hitch with ear.

Using Lee's combo, I experienced the nip collapsing despite the extra Half Hitched ear with my boot laces.

Using "your" combo, I could not get either of the nips to collapse.  This is truly a robust combination.

However...

I just rewatched your video (you remind me of the Man in Black from A Princess Bride  ;)).  This may be a lexicon thing as I don't own ABOK to know what #173 is.  I saw you tie the same combo as Lee, that is, you formed only one nip prior to the half hitch with the ear.  Interestingly, you tied your half hitched ear in the opposite direction that I had been.  Trying that, I still get the nip to collapse (with boot laces mind you--and, nevertheless, the TH still worked).  My conclusion is that two nips, cinched together a la a Clove Hitch (and favored by TMCD--not separated like a Sheepshank), plus a Half Hitch with the ear for security, is my "Favorite Way to Tie."  (Note: no corkscrew twisting at any point.)
Title: Update
Post by: Keystoner on January 08, 2013, 03:42:55 AM
No, I am using Lee's method, as you describe it.  That title is new to me.  I have tied this method in lots of different cord, including boot laces, paracord, and much thicker rope.  I have never had the nip collapse on me.

That title--I coined it.  ;)

Update:  I bought a short length of thin rope (~3/16" diameter) in the climbing section of the local Erehwon.  I tied Lee's Trucker's Hitch (one Bowline nip + Half Hitched bight).  I could not get the nip to collapse with this "real" rope.  Lee is the man!

knot4u, would you be so kind to consider my previous question about avoiding tension loss by cinching the pulley loop around the running part prior to hauling?
Title: Andy's Corkscrews
Post by: Keystoner on January 09, 2013, 03:44:21 AM
Andy, I took a look at your "Most Useful Knots" page.  I liked it.  You may not have used a graphic artist to do your pictures but the black arrows are very readable and understandable to me and I like your selection of knots.

With respect to your "Quickie Truckie"...

I recognize the passion regarding the whole corkscrew twisting business.  The title of this thread requests people's "favorite" way to tie a TH.  Everyone has their own favorite.  You like a corkscrew turn.  You have real world experience.  I know it works because it works for you.  I'm writing now because I noticed you put forth Lee's Trucker's Hitch YouTube video as an example of your corkscrew method.  I know there was a debate as to whether Lee actually did a corkscrew turn and you implored others to take a closer look at his video to verify that he did.  I contend he didn't.  Would you take another look and see if Lee doesn't wind up with, what I've been calling, a single Bowlinelike nip around the bight that is drawn from behind it?  I'd like to suggest that the following video shows a more accurate depiction of what you demonstrate on your website:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HmwURT5apfs.  Clearly this young fellow corroborates what you've been saying, that a corkscrew turn is a most feasible method to tie a TH.
Title: Re: Trucker Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: TMCD on January 09, 2013, 04:37:58 PM
If there's anyway someone could get in touch with Lee Bundy and have him do another Trucker's Hitch on you tube it would solve this debate. Lee would need to tie it slowly and explain the various steps as he went, this would be a great educational video not only for us knotheads but for the general public as well.

We've got to much uncertainty on what Lee does with the midline loop part, for the record, I don't see him double twisting or corkscrewing at all. It appears like Lee's simply taking the bunny ear and making a half hitch, nothing more, nothing less...and this method is very reliable, secure and strong.

Can anyone get Lee to make an instructional like video of his method? I'm thinking about making a you tube video with my method, ABOK 173. The great thing about using ABOK 173 is that if you desire, you can simply add a third hitch, essentially creating a clove hitch and a half, making it ultra secure and beefing it up.
Title: The Great Lee Bundy
Post by: Keystoner on January 10, 2013, 12:22:55 AM
If there's anyway someone could get in touch with Lee Bundy and have him do another Trucker's Hitch on you tube it would solve this debate. Lee would need to tie it slowly and explain the various steps as he went, this would be a great educational video not only for us knotheads but for the general public as well.

We've got to much uncertainty on what Lee does with the midline loop part, for the record, I don't see him double twisting or corkscrewing at all. It appears like Lee's simply taking the bunny ear and making a half hitch, nothing more, nothing less...and this method is very reliable, secure and strong.

Can anyone get Lee to make an instructional like video of his method? I'm thinking about making a you tube video with my method, ABOK 173. The great thing about using ABOK 173 is that if you desire, you can simply add a third hitch, essentially creating a clove hitch and a half, making it ultra secure and beefing it up.

Well it was easy enough using Google to get his contact information.  Based on his Trucker's Hitch alone, I have a good mind to patronize his guide business here:  http://lcpackers.com/about/

As far as asking him to make another video, it is not necessary.  Except for his preference for the far anchor hitch, for which I'm curious, from his narration, the camera lady's narration, and his demonstration in the video, everything else is very clear to me, and apparently to you too (and knot4u as well).  What I will do, is write the man here http://trailblazersonline.com/?page_id=3, and invite him to join us on the forum.
Title: Re: Trucker Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: Andy on January 21, 2013, 08:32:21 PM
Hi Knot4U,
Hope the week is starting well for you, thanks for your message.

Quote
why didn't you provide the link to your site?

I'm not too happy with many of my old pictures, and I've been meaning to take  more with different grades of rope.

One symptom that the pictures may be inadequate is what you say in see in them. On the one at the top right of the truckie series, there is what I call "twist twice" (the loop to the left of that picture, through which the black arrow is going). I could have twisted only once, and you could still make a truckie. (I have been assuming that this is what you have been talking about, as this works.)

Wishing you a fun week,

Andy
Title: Re: Trucker Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: Andy on January 21, 2013, 09:23:00 PM
For me it does hold---picture must be foggy. That's the same kind of nip as on a bowline (until you tighten).
Heading out to the garden but will try to post pictures of both at some stage.
All the best,
Andy
Title: Well now...
Post by: Keystoner on January 22, 2013, 01:06:56 AM
I'm glad this thread perseveres.  It has afforded me the opportunity to really study the technique of others.

I realize Andy's "Quickie Truckie" is exactly how I tie one of my favorite methods.

Now I see why in your video you tied your securing half-hitched bight in the direction you did, that is, opposite that of Lee--because you also tied the Bowline-like nip in the opposite direction, like Andy!  According to your quote above, you form your nip "exactly" the same way as depicted in Andy's picture.  Clearly (now!) in Andy's pic, the nip is formed by rotating counterclockwise, that is, by twisting the standing part with your right hand toward yourself, which is counterclockwise as one would observe from the right side.  Lee twists away from himself--clockwise as one would observe from the right side.

However Knot4u, you do NOT tie your securing half-hitched bight in the same direction as Andy shows in his pic.  If you did, you would not get the topologically-identical-to-a-clove-hitch formation that you mentioned several times.

Andy, I RETRACT the alternative video I suggested in my prior post.  Your TH is almost identical to Lee's.  The nip is mirrored but the securing half-hitched bight is in the same direction.  Unlike Lee, this does not result in a "Clove Hitch" formation with the secured bight. ETA:  When I test each direction of the half-hitched bight, they both seem to work.

This "double twisting" description was quite the red herring, unfortunately.  Why don't we just use geometry?  Andy, you've claimed vehemently that Lee twists twice, and I believe I know why.  I speculated early on but now I'll use *angles*.  Lee takes the standing part with his right hand and twists 180 degrees away from himself (clockwise as one would observe from the right).  This creates what I have been calling a single bowline-like nip.  Then he twists another 90 degrees in order to insert the bight from below the now horizontal nip.  He could have forgone this "second" twist by inserting the bight from behind the vertical nip he formed with the "first" twist.  Knot4u, you said this twisting business is a moot point once the securing half hitch is formed.  I say the double twisting nonsense is moot if the nip is formed the way this fellow forms it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PjIi46dZ08M.  As I alluded to previously, I'll never tie a Bowline by preforming the nip again.  "The rabbit comes out of the hole..."  "What hole?!?"  SILLY!.

BTW, I emailed Lee--never got a response.   :(
Title: On second thought...
Post by: Keystoner on January 22, 2013, 01:36:38 AM
Knot4u, I just watched your video A-GAIN!  As I see it, you do NOT tie your nip the same as Andy.  You tie it the same as Lee.  You tie your securing bight in the opposite direction as Lee (whereas Andy ties the nip in the opposite direction and the bight in the same direction).  I do not agree with your assertion that, with the direction you go around with the bight in your video, you wind up with a topologically identical formation to a Clove Hitch.  But yes, since you and Andy each tie one element of the nip/securing half hitch opposite to that of Lee, you both do tie essentially the same combination.
Title: Re: Trucker Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: Keystoner on January 22, 2013, 01:38:00 AM
By the way, I sent a message to Lee via Youtube, and I did get a response.  I guess you're just not important enough...just kidding!
Rushing to check it right now!
Title: Re: On second thought...
Post by: Keystoner on January 22, 2013, 01:52:25 AM
Then, you need to keep looking because the knot in my video is not quite the same as Lee's.

Agreed.  Your nip (in the video) is in the same direction as Lee.  Your bight is in the opposite direction as Lee.

Quote
My method of tie is like the video you posted of the guy in the snow

Let's give that a well deserved name, shall we: "Perry's Trucker's Hitch."  If we could just get Perry to show Lee how to form the nip and Lee to show Perry the securing bight, perhaps we could solve world peace!
Title: Re: Trucker Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: Andy on January 22, 2013, 04:03:19 AM
Hi guys,

Quote
Lee takes the standing part with his right hand and twists 180 degrees away from himself (clockwise as one would observe from the right). 

Yes, that's what I do too (and I have been saying clockwise repeatedly, and I think the picture I posted at this stage of the discussion (http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1870.msg25306#msg25306) also show that).
I see that the pictures on my site (which I did not reference in this twisting convo) twist in the opposite direction, and I think I know what happened here. It's pretty hard to take pictures of knots while tying them and keeping them in place, and I must have made the twist with my left hand for the pictures on the website, instead of the right hand that I always use.

Like Knot4U I object to arbitrarily naming that double twist configuration after some random guy on YouTube, this was shown to me ages ago in Australia as the standard way of tying truckies and I don't see how the name would go to some random guy among the thousands who use it.
Title: Re: Trucker Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: Andy on January 22, 2013, 05:05:54 AM
Quote
The reason I call it "twist once" is because as shown in Andy's "Quickie Truckie", that's the least amount of twisting you could do to get the Trucker to work.

Here are the pictures promised earlier.
The first one is what I call "single twist", which is what I've been assuming you do, and what this discussion has convinced me to experiment with over the past month.
The second is what I call "double twist", and what I have done in the past, and originally written to ask about. Also what I see Lee doing in the video.

Both the single and double allow the truckie to work, even without securing the ear with a half-hitch (as I nearly always do, and you guys seem to as well). My question since the beginning has been: which is preferable, single or double?

These pictures are for clarification only. I don't know how the holding of the single and double twists relate to the picture on my website you recently referred to---that is irrelevant, because as I mentioned before I always twist clockwise, except, it seems, for that website photo, when my right hand must have been holding a camera or something else while I was twisting in the "wrong direction" with the left. (I gave the single counter-clockwise a quick try and it did hold, but every rope is different.)

EDIT: Oh, and sorry about the disgustingly beautiful weather, it's Summer here in the southern hemisphere.  8)
Title: Oh all right...
Post by: Keystoner on January 22, 2013, 05:07:45 AM
Like Knot4U I object to arbitrarily naming that double twist configuration after some random guy on YouTube, this was shown to me ages ago in Australia as the standard way of tying truckies and I don't see how the name would go to some random guy among the thousands who use it.

~Sigh~ If it were for someone else, I wouldn't hesitate to buy ABOK.  I just can't get myself to spend that kind of money on myself.  It's been a while since I've paged though it in a book store.  It seemed good as an encyclopedia.  From what I remember, the illustrations were a bit dated compared to knot books of today.

Yes, that's what I do too (and I have been saying clockwise repeatedly, and I think the picture I posted at this stage of the discussion (http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1870.msg25306#msg25306) also show that).

Andy, with reference to the three very clear pictures of ABOK #173 that you referenced above which you note "have nothing to do with the double twist," I fully agree with you that Lee does NOT tie ABOK #173.  Nevertheless, do you now agree that Lee doesn't do a double twist either?  Since I don't own ABOK, given Knot4u's definition of ABOK #172 being a single nip, Lee ties ABOK #172 + the securing half hitch with the bight.  Lee's video is a perfect example of what you have on your website for a "Truckie Hitch" except that your pictures have the left hand turn.  That one picture is very deceiving because it certainly looks like a corkscrew turn was performed.

My method of tie is much faster, but it doesn't show up well on video.  My method of tie is like the video you posted of the guy in the snow, but imagine making another nip in the same manner he makes the first nip.  What you end up with is ABOK #173.

I understand "ABOK #173" now.  The Asian fellow and the Australian fellow on the porch tie it, but they don't cinch the two nips together to resemble a Clove Hitch.  With two nips, do you find it necessary to additionally tie the securing half hitched bight?  I see the extra security with that but I've found that Lee's combo is sufficient.
Title: Re: Trucker Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: Andy on January 22, 2013, 05:12:45 AM
Hi Keystoner,

Quote
Lee's video is a perfect example of what you have on your website for a "Truckie Hitch" except that your pictures have the left hand turn

Yes, I have always said that I tie exactly the same truckie as the guy does no that video...
...and that he does a double twist, as defined by the pictures I posted a split-second before your last post (http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1870.msg26068#msg26068).
Title: Re: Trucker Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: Keystoner on January 22, 2013, 05:13:33 AM
Here are the pictures promised earlier.
The first one is what I call "single twist", which is what I've been assuming you do, and what this discussion has convinced me to experiment with over the past month.
The second is what I call "double twist", and what I have done in the past, and originally written to ask about. Also what I see Lee doing in the video.
EDIT: Oh, and sorry about the disgustingly beautiful weather, it's Summer here in the southern hemisphere.  8)

That first picture is EXACTLY what Lee ties.

I live in Chicago, IL USA.  It's 3 degrees farenheit as I type this.  I hate you.  ;)
Title: Re: Trucker Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: Keystoner on January 22, 2013, 05:14:47 AM
Hi Keystoner,

Quote
Lee's video is a perfect example of what you have on your website for a "Truckie Hitch" except that your pictures have the left hand turn

Yes, I have always said that I tie exactly the same truckie as the guy does no that video...
...and that he does a double twist, as defined by the pictures I posted a split-second before your last post (http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1870.msg26068#msg26068).

~Sigh~
Title: Re: Trucker Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: Andy on January 22, 2013, 05:17:27 AM
Quote
That first picture is EXACTLY what Lee ties.

That first picture is exactly what you (and others) see Lee tying.
The second picture is exactly what I (and others) see Lee tying.

Now after Knot4U's posts from this morning, I'm no longer sure what he sees.

Quote
It's 3 degrees farenheit as I type this.

Sorry. I'll try to send the sun around your way, it might take a couple of months.
Title: Re: Trucker Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: Keystoner on January 22, 2013, 05:19:56 AM

Quote
That first picture is EXACTLY what Lee ties.

That first picture is exactly what you (and others) see Lee tying.


Would you take just one more look at Lee's video in light of the "geometry" angles description I proposed?
Title: Australians
Post by: Keystoner on January 22, 2013, 06:00:19 AM
which is what the Australian fellow on the porch ties in his video.

That Australina fellow ties his nips with counterclockwise turns as well.  Andy, are you sure that that just isn't an Australian idiosyncracy, kinda like your toilets going down the wrong way?  :P
Title: Re: Trucker Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: Andy on January 22, 2013, 06:38:25 AM
Quote
Keystoner, there is no need for Andy to take another look.  I already went back-and-forth with him about one hundred times on this issue.  He sees what he sees.

Very true, and also agreeing with you that it does not really matter, the real question being which is preferable (which question you have already given your detailed answer to).
Nevertheless, I have two treats for you guys, which may highlight where we see differently.

First, please look at the three attached pictures, excerpted from the video, with the contrast increased. To see something, you will probably have to click on each picture.
These are three consecutive shots.
==> The first one shows Lee having completed what I call the single twist (same as my picture # 1 from today (http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1870.msg26068#msg26068) I believe).
==> The second one shows Lee... starting to twist that first nip again, clockwise, i.e, starting the double twist.
==> On the third picture (blurry, sorry), he has completed the double twist, and is about to push the bight through it.

Second, if you guys have a media player, please take a look at this excerpt from the video (http://www.asiteaboutnothing.net/pix/knots/TruckersExtract.avi), showing exactly where I see the double twist happening.
[Apologies in advance to readers from the future, as I will delete this at some stage for copyright reasons, although I believe such an excerpt constitutes "fair use".]
If your computer doesn't play this file, you can download PotPlayer (http://www.techsupportalert.com/best-free-windows-media-player-replacement.htm#Quick_Selection_Guide) (fabulous for PC) or VLC (http://www.videolan.org/vlc/index.html) (for Mac or PC).

Looking forward to your thoughts about what we're seeing differently here and why. I might yet rally to your camp.

@Keystoner, the most confusing thing about the southern hemisphere is that mirrors invert top and bottom instead of left and right.  ;)

Peace,

Andy
Title: Slow Motion Truckie
Post by: Andy on January 22, 2013, 07:23:30 AM
Perhaps even better, my friends: please download this video---the segment where I see the double twist (http://www.asiteaboutnothing.net/pix/knots/SloMoTruckie.avi), in slow motion.
Title: Re: Trucker Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: Keystoner on January 22, 2013, 07:23:51 AM
==> The first one shows Lee having completed what I call the single twist (same as my picture # 1 from today (http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1870.msg26068#msg26068) I believe).

Agreed.  Lee has just completed his first 180 degree clockwise twist.  At this point I will define the opening in the nip facing the camera as Side 1 and the opening facing away from the camera as Side 2.  Side 1 is the top facing up and to the left; Side 2 is the bottom facing down and to the right.  Lee is about to twist again.  His right index finger is on top of Side 1; his right thumb is on the bottom of Side 2.

==> The second one shows Lee... starting to twist that first nip again, clockwise, i.e, starting the double twist.

For the sake of agreement, I'll agree to call this the start of a "double twist."  In this picture Side 1 is now facing to the left and Side 2 is facing to the right.

==> On the third picture (blurry, sorry), he has completed the double twist, and is about to push the bight through it.

This picture is horrible, but he has definitely not completed another *180* degree twist.  If you follow the video closely, you will see that Lee pushes the bight through Side 2 and out through Side 1.  His "second" twist was just enough (I said 90 degrees previously) to expose Side 2 to the bight.  He does not twist so far to expose Side 1 again in order for the bight to enter through Side 1. Please try to see this.
Title: Re: Slow Motion Truckie
Post by: Keystoner on January 22, 2013, 07:26:06 AM
Perhaps even better, my friends: please download this video---the segment where I see the double twist (http://www.asiteaboutnothing.net/pix/knots/SloMoTruckie.avi), in slow motion.

It couldn't have been more clear.  What side does Lee insert the bight?  (Hint: Side 2)
Title: Re: Trucker Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: Andy on January 22, 2013, 11:46:17 AM
Hi Keystoner,

Thank you for looking at these pictures and the video in detail.

Yes, I do agree with you that the man pushes the bight in through side 2.

On the slo-mo, I see him as having nearly completed another 180 degree twist (maybe 160), but even if it's just another 130, that's immaterial: if he goes in through side 2, that is the exact same as my picture #2 of earlier today (http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1870.195), in other words, what I have been calling a "double twist". Going through side 1 would be a single twist (picture #1). I say this after double checking rope in hand, looking at picture #2 and side 2 on the screen.
Does this make sense to you, or do you think I am missing something?

Anyhow, between your "side 1 / side 2" and my "picture 1 / picture 2",  it seems like we may have found a "language" to understand what each other means---and we might be near a resolution.

Wishing you a beautiful day,

Andy
Title: Getting there...
Post by: Keystoner on January 22, 2013, 01:54:33 PM
or do you think I am missing something?
Yes, but I'm determined to show you the light.

Yes, I do agree with you that the man pushes the bight in through side 2.
Excellent.  Now let's compare your two pictures from Reply #208.  Please refer to the first picture for which you say, "The first one is what I call 'single twist.'" I'll refer to that as "Andy #1."  Let's compare Andy #1 to the first Lee picture, "Lee #1," from Reply #219.  In Andy #1, a single, 180 degree, clockwise twist has already been performed.  The nip is identical to that in Lee #1.  Side 1 and Side 2 are as I defined in Reply #221.  In Andy #1, Side 1 is facing to the right and Side 2 is facing to the left.  Your right hand has entered the nip through Side 1 and is about to grab the bight.  You are about to pull the bight through Side 2.

Your bight enters the nip through the same side as it did for Lee.  The result is a single nip, identical to that in a Bowline, with the "rabbit"/bight entering the nip in the same way.
Title: And the wheels of the bus go round and round...
Post by: Keystoner on January 22, 2013, 02:56:26 PM
but if you analyze Lee's video and my video, you will notice that Lee's Half Hitch lock goes around (what I consider to be) the wrong way.

I do NOT agree.

As I understood you, all along you have been using the term "topologically equivalent" to refer to Lee's combo as being equivalent to ABOK #173.  As I now understand, ABOK #173 involves two nips, a la a Clove Hitch, like the Asian fellow, the Australian fellow on the porch, and TMCD's description in Reply #181.  As Andy has asserted to you several times, Lee does not explicitly tie a two nip, ABOK #173, formation.

"Mathematically," what does Lee tie?  I submit that he ties ABOK #172 + half hitch lock with the bight.  With the direction Lee ties the bight, all along I agreed with you that it is "topologically equivalent" to a Clove Hitch.  But if you are now saying he goes around the WRONG way, I do not see it as "topologically equivalent" or I do not understand your use of that term.

[This will be hard for me to explain.]

Lee's nip:  Equivalent to a Bowline nip, the nip is formed with the running part passing OVER and to the LEFT of the standing part.

Lee's half hitch lock:  The bight passes behind the standing part from right to left, comes around passing OVER and to the RIGHT of the standing part.

In other words, there is one pass (with a single leg) over and to the LEFT of the standing part, and one pass (with the two legs of the bight) over and to the RIGHT of the standing part, just like a Clove Hitch.  Going around in the opposite direction results in a topologically equivalent Cow Hitch.  As I said, I've tried both directions (in small climbing rope around the handles of my desk drawers).  Neither seemed advantageous but I'll stick with Lee's directions, since I can visually see the Clove Hitch formation.  (Note:  when I refer to Clove Hitch here, I am not referring to the explicit two nip Clove Hitch formation of ABOK #173.)
Title: Re: Trucker Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: Andy on January 22, 2013, 09:00:28 PM
Hello Keystoner,

Thank you for trying to illuminate me.
Please allow me to respond, and perhaps reciprocate?

Quote
You are about to pull the bight through Side 2.

Yes, that's right, that's what happens on picture #1: I push the bight through Side 1 and pull out of Side 2.

But that is not what happens in the video.

For what happens in the video, let us quote you from reply 221 (http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1870.msg26082#msg26082):
Quote
If you follow the video closely, you will see that Lee pushes the bight through Side 2 and out through Side 1.

In other words, per this quote, you see Lee doing the opposite of what you see me doing in picture 1 (per the first quote).

Now may I please ask you to consider the statement "Lee pushes the bight through Side 2 and out through Side 1": I propose that this is exactly what happens in Picture #2: I push the bight through Side 2 and pull it out of Side 1.

As you said yourself, on Picture #1, the part facing me is Side 1. Therefore on Picture #2, Side 1 is at the back. The bight enters Side 2 and comes out of Side 1. Same as what you see Lee doing.

Hope all is well in Chicago.

Wishing you a relaxing evening,

Andy
Title: Baby Steps
Post by: Keystoner on January 22, 2013, 10:28:27 PM
Hello Mate,

Quote
You are about to pull the bight through Side 2.

Yes, that's right, that's what happens on picture #1: I push the bight through Side 1 and pull out of Side 2.

I don't know if you know much about Chicago politics, but you'd fit right in.  That was pretty slick the way you turned that on me.

No, you are about to pull with your right hand/push with your left hand the bight through Side 2 and pull with your right hand out Side 1.

Since I know you disagree, you must have disagreed with me when I wrote this:
Quote
In Andy #1, Side 1 is facing to the right and Side 2 is facing to the left.  Your right hand has entered the nip through Side 1 and is about to grab the bight

We really can't proceed unless we agree on the nomenclature/sign convention.  Take a vertically standing line and hold it in front of you with your left hand.  With your right hand, grab the line and twist forward 180 degrees, forming the classic Bowline nip ("hole" if you will, but I now find that term particulary amateurish) which now sits to the right of the vertically standing line.  You are facing Side 1 of the nip.  Side 2 faces away from you.

Do you agree that I have not changed my sign convention?  Do you agree that what you see is identical to Lee #1?  Do you agree that in Andy #1, which is viewed from the right side, your right hand has entered the nip through Side 1 and has exited through Side 2?

If you don't agree with all those questions, I may just have to go on Walkabout to figure out another tact with you.   ;D
Title: Re: Trucker Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: Sweeney on January 22, 2013, 10:35:37 PM
When I watched the original video several times I also concluded that there was a double twist BUT it's a bit like reading something and seeing what you expect rather than what's actually written. In the video the nipping loop is the opposite way round to the way I naturally tie it (in fact I found it quite awkward to replicate) so that the nipped bight has to be inserted from the back - achieved by twisting the nipping loop - or else there would be no nip at all as Knot4U has said repeatedly - and I owe him an apology for looking but not seeing.

I'll stick to the span loop though and bow out of this discussion now!

Barry
Title: Re: And the wheels of the bus go round and round...
Post by: Keystoner on January 22, 2013, 11:56:22 PM
Please watch the Lee video again and tie exactly what he ties.  Note, I went through the pain of making my own video specifically because Lee ties the Cow Hitch formation, unfortunately.
Trust me, out of respect for you, the whole double/twist discussion, and for my own knowledge, I have EXHAUSTIVELY watched Lee's video and yours.  Remember I noticed that you and Lee tied your bight in opposite directions?  I watched that thing so many times that I cannot let it go with Andy either.  I'd rather not get into a drawn out discussion with you about what you and I now disagree regarding Lee's video, but I maintain that *your* video demonstrates a topologically equivalent Cow Hitch.

With which part of this do you disagree:
Quote
Lee's nip:  Equivalent to a Bowline nip, the nip is formed with the running part passing OVER and to the LEFT of the standing part.

Lee's half hitch lock:  The bight passes behind the standing part from right to left, comes around passing OVER and to the RIGHT of the standing part.

As you know, a Granny is topologically equivalent to a Clove, which is like ABOK #173, which is the most desirable knot formation for this style of Trucker Hitch in my opinion.  See my video and the video of the Australian guy on his porch.

In contrast, a Square is topologically equivalent to a Cow, which is like what Lee ties in his video.  If Lee had taken the bight ear the other way around the standing end, then he would have tied ABOK #173.

I'm a knot hack but I understand everything you said here.  I understand what you mean by "topologically equivalent."  However, I think it is very misleading, and confusing to novices, to equate [ABOK #173] '=' [(ABOK #172) + (Half-Hitch lock)], even though I agree that '=' (equals sign with quotation marks) means "topologically equivalent" (provided the Half Hitch lock is taken around correctly).  To me, properly, [ABOK #173] = [Two Half Hitches] = [Clove Hitch] = [Two Nips], with no quotation marks around the equals sign.
Title: Re: Trucker Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: Keystoner on January 23, 2013, 12:31:33 AM
Just so we're clear, I'm certain in my video I tied the Clove Hitch version (ABOK #173).  You are certain I did not.

Also, I am certain Lee is tying the Cow Hitch version.  You are certain he is not.

The discussion on this issue can't go any further if we are at polar opposites on this fundamental concept.
Thank God!
Title: Re: Trucker Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: Keystoner on January 23, 2013, 12:53:08 AM
Are you aware that in order to see the Clove (or the Cow), you must pull the bight up straight such that the standing end is doing the wrapping around?  If you leave the knot as it looks in my video, it's about impossible to see the Clove.

No, I was not aware.  I'm trying to see this.  Are you pulling the bight up straight after you tied the locking half hitch with it?  I don't know how to visualize the standing part going around the bight at this point.  The bight is going around the standing part.  The only time I see the standing part going around the bight is with the single nip.
Title: How did I miss this?
Post by: Keystoner on January 23, 2013, 01:20:48 AM
so that the nipped bight has to be inserted from the back [emphasis added]

Yes!

"back" = Side 2
Title: Re: Trucker Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: Keystoner on January 23, 2013, 01:53:58 AM
I leave the bight as shown in my video.  I'm just saying that if you want to see the Clove you have to pull the bight straight so that the bight passes through the Clove on the standing end. 

This is where you are very misleading.  Although your TH may be "topologically equivalent" to this enlightening-to-me ABOK #173 figure, it does not look like that at all since you actually pictorially tie [(ABOK #172) + (a Locking Half Hitch)].
Title: Re: Trucker Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: Keystoner on January 23, 2013, 02:14:20 AM
Here is ABOK #172 (the Bell Ringer):
(http://i1221.photobucket.com/albums/dd468/iq201/Public/Loop-BellRinger-ABOK172_zpse729b6bd.jpg)

The nipping loop in the above figure would be formed with a counterclockwise right hand twist.  Lee's ABOK #172 nip is formed with a clockwise right hand twist.  [You don't need to repeat your consistency argument with respect to counter/clockwise.  I understand that.]

In your video, you tie your nip in the same direction as Lee.  You tie your locking half hitch in the opposite direction as Lee.
Title: Re: Trucker Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: Keystoner on January 23, 2013, 02:38:52 AM
Exactly, and everything else I said above stands.

Now we're back to...
Quote
The discussion on this issue can't go any further if we are at polar opposites on this fundamental concept.
and I don't see any point to continue.  Do you?

Andy, where are you?
Title: Persistent little feller, eh?
Post by: Keystoner on January 23, 2013, 02:55:38 AM
I leave the bight as shown in my video.  I'm just saying that if you want to see the Clove you have to pull the bight straight so that the bight passes through the Clove on the standing end. 

This is where you are very misleading.  Although your TH may be "topologically equivalent" to this enlightening-to-me ABOK #173 figure, it does not look like that at all since you actually pictorially tie [(ABOK #172) + (a Locking Half Hitch)].

I think you are having an epiphany.  You have just described the knot in my video precisely.

If you go way back and read the original post, you'll see that one of my favorites is the following:

Bell Ringer + Half Hitch Lock (ABOK #173)

A Bell Ringer is ABOK #172.  In other words, ABOK #173 is topologically equivalent to ABOK #172 + a Half Hitch Lock.  The reason I say "Half Hitch Lock" is because I want to distinguish my dressing from the dressing shown for ABOK #173.  However, I also want people to notice that adding a Half Hitch Lock is equivalent to ABOK #173 once you move things around a bit.

Check, check, check, check.

Yet your video demonstrates a Cow Hitch.  We can agree to disagree, you know?
Title: Lee twists twice to produce a "single twist"
Post by: Andy on January 23, 2013, 11:48:48 AM
Hi Keystoner, hi Knot4U,

Sorry about the delay, out all day.
Gentlemen, I have good news: a resolution (I hope) of the single vs double twist question.

By looking at the two pictures below, I had an epiphany.
They are the picture of my single twist (the shape I produce with one single clockwise twist of my right hand), and the picture of what the man produces with one single twist of his right hand. I had always assumed that these are the same (we both seem to be doing the same motion in a clockwise direction). Looking closely at the two pictures, I see that they do not show the same loop. [Edit to clarify:] On mine, the "down rope" crosses behind. On his, it crosses in front.

1. I now see that I was wrong about the morphology of what the man is tying, and that you both were right about that. He produces what I have been calling the "single twist".


The reason is quite subtle, and, not to diminish your "rightness" about the overall question in any way, there is one fundamental aspect where I believe I was at least as right as you guys, and I believe this was the source of the problem:

2. To produce the "single twist", the man twists twice---nearly exactly the motion I use for the double twist.


I believe this is the source of the confusion.
Believe it or not, this whole confusing discussion may therefore be a story of wasted motion (or, since "wasted" can antagonize, "different motion"): all along, with a single twist, we have been producing different loops, and therefore talking about different things.

Lee twists twice to produce my single twist. Do you guys also twist twice? You must do, as you have said that you do what he does? Please come forward, I have given you the cake and changed my mind about the morphology produced, as I always said I would do the second I was convinced.

For the record, here is the "single twist" motion that produces my "single twist" on my picture below, which differs from where the man is after one twist, and is in fact his double twist.

When I grab the rope to make my first twist, I sweep my right forearm counterclockwise. The elbow points away, and the right hand points towards me. The right hand's fingers crosses the rope from the left, except for the thumb, which stays on the left side, creating a fulcrum opposite the four fingers which grab the rope from the other side. The hand twists clockwise, and we have what I have been calling a "single twist". I am so used to this gesture that I never considered that a single clockwise twist might be producing a different structure. Will post pictures in the next post.

You guys weren't mad that the man on the video produces a "single twist" (I thought you were).
And I wasn't mad that he twists twice (in what looks like my "double twist").

I am amazed that we didn't get here sooner. How very odd that it took all this time.
Glad indeed to have that resolved! I was on the verge of pulling my hair a few times and I'm sure some of you were too. :'(
Thank you all for your patience. I'm sure we all learned something on this ride, whether about knots or about the challenge using words to make each other see the same thing.

Wishing you all a beautiful day,

Andy
Title: My single twist
Post by: Andy on January 23, 2013, 11:50:50 AM
My single twist (what the man does in two twists). This gesture is so natural and ingrained I don't even think about it.

Sorry about the "late night" quality of these pictures.
Title: There is joy in Mudville
Post by: Keystoner on January 23, 2013, 12:59:42 PM
 
Do you guys also twist twice? You must do, as you have said that you do what he does?

No!  I use Perry Peacock's technique.  No twisting required.  You can affect as many nips as you desire by simply repeating the maneuver.  As I said, this was revolutionary for me as it demonstrates the superior way to tie a Bowline.

I know your technique is ingrained in your muscle memory, but please take another look at Perry's simple maneuver to affect a single nip:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PjIi46dZ08M

Cheers!
Title: One down, one to go.
Post by: Keystoner on January 23, 2013, 01:08:14 PM
My video is absolutely ABOK 173. Do I need to make another video to prove it?

No, I don't believe that is necessary since there is no part of your video that confuses me.  But if you're so hell-bent to continue this discussion, why don't you answer this question:

With which part of the following do you disagree?

Quote
Lee's nip:  Equivalent to a Bowline nip, the nip is formed with the running part passing OVER and to the LEFT of the standing part.

Lee's half hitch lock:  The bight passes behind the standing part from right to left, comes around passing OVER and to the RIGHT of the standing part.

If you agree with both of those descriptions, then we have a different concept of Clove Hitch vs. Cow Hitch as applied to Lee's and your TH's.
Title: Maybe we're not done...
Post by: Keystoner on January 23, 2013, 01:29:30 PM
By looking at the two pictures below, I had an epiphany.
They are the picture of my single twist (the shape I produce with one single clockwise twist of my right hand), and the picture of what the man produces with one single twist of his right hand. I had always assumed that these are the same (we both seem to be doing the same motion in a clockwise direction). Looking closely at the two pictures, I see that they do not show the same loop. [Edit to clarify:] On mine, the "down rope" crosses behind. On his, it crosses in front.

They are ABSOLUTELY the same loop, viewed from different angles.  Please refer to my Side 1/Side 2 discussion.
Title: Re: Maybe we're not done...
Post by: Andy on January 23, 2013, 09:06:06 PM
Quote
They are ABSOLUTELY the same loop, viewed from different angles.  Please refer to my Side 1/Side 2 discussion.

Well yes and no.
Yes in suspended 3-D space they are topologically the same thing (a loop of rope), but if you push a bight through the front of the guy's loop, it won't hold, whereas if you push a bight through mine, it will.

No they are not "viewed from different angles", they are viewed from the exact same angle, we both used our right hand, in front of us, and twisted clockwise, everything about the load, knot etc is in the same place, and so is the camera.

That's why he twists a second time, to enter from the other side.
I can sit with a piece of rope and twist once clockwise, with different motions of the right hand, to make either his loop, or my loop. That's my point about wasted motion---he twists twice to make a single twist.

What you said here suggests that perhaps you haven't yet shared my epiphany about why we couldn't understand one another in this discussion?

The motion of the guy in the snow from your other message is interesting, I'll experiment with it in real loading situations.

Warmest wishes,

Andy

ps: on the pictures, notice whether the "down rope" crosses at the front or at the back. Also notice that the bight is pointing the same way.
Title: Re: Trucker Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: Andy on January 23, 2013, 09:16:13 PM
In other words...
Looking at the two pictures above...
You know the slo-mo video I sent you, that pretty much starts on this frame?
If I sent you a slo-mo video starting on the equivalent frame for me, there would be nothing to see---frozen frame, I'm done, ready to push the bight in.
None of that second twist of the video so that the guy can push that bight in.
If I did twist at that stage, that would be to make my old double twist.

I believe there's a point here. Perhaps some of the praise so lavishly spent on the method in that video could be retracted.
Title: Re: Trucker Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: diff_lock on January 23, 2013, 10:37:43 PM
I am not addressing anyone specifically. I'm just super saiyan.

EDIT: There seems to be a term for this already. Loop versus Elbow. See: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a1/BightLoopElbow.jpg

Here is some testing I have done. I would not trust the bell ringer knot (EDIT: With 2.8mm single braid polyester cordage, dry).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=dlAyTquJ_HM

Lee (the guy with the pickup truck and logs?) Does NOT use a bell ringer + half hitch lock.

His initial loop is one extra turn compared to the bell ringer's initial loop (nip?) making one complete twist.

(http://i.imgur.com/SoGx5Xy.jpg)

180 for bell ringer, 360 is an other option which Lee chose.
Title: You're killing me here.
Post by: Keystoner on January 23, 2013, 11:15:55 PM
Andy, your graciousness goes far to assuage my frustration with you.  However, either you don't carefully and thoroughly read my arguments or you don't understand how to apply them, vis a vis how I defined Side 1 and Side 2.  I exclude the possibility of that being false, and that you simply disagree, because I am 100% sure of my position.  (I'm 95% sure with the Knot4u discussion.)  If anyone else would like to engage, please do so, because I feel like I'm running a relay race and no one will take the baton from me.  In any case, I will be taking a break from this thread for a while.

Please, for my sanity, TABULA RASA.  Without any preconceived ideas, as if we were starting from scratch, please ponder my following arguments.  Please do not respond impulsively.  Sleep on it if you have to.  Out of courtesy to you and Knot4u, I have exhaustively been verifying my statements and yours.

>> By looking at the two pictures below, I had an epiphany.
They are the picture of my single twist (the shape I produce with one single clockwise twist of my right hand), and the picture of what the man produces with one single twist of his right hand. I had always assumed that these are the same (we both seem to be doing the same motion in a clockwise direction). Looking closely at the two pictures, I see that they do not show the same loop. [Edit to clarify:] On mine, the "down rope" crosses behind. On his, it crosses in front.

>> Well yes and no.
Yes in suspended 3-D space they are topologically the same thing (a loop of rope), but if you push a bight through the front of the guy's loop, it won't hold, whereas if you push a bight through mine, it will.
 

They are EXACTLY the same loop.  Choosing my words very carefully:  They are EQUIVALENT.  There is NO need for the qualifier "topologically."  They are not a mirror image of each other.  They are EXACT.

>> No they are not "viewed from different angles", they are viewed from the exact same angle, we both used our right hand, in front of us, and twisted clockwise, everything about the load, knot etc is in the same place, and so is the camera.

>> ps: on the pictures, notice whether the "down rope" crosses at the front or at the back. Also notice that the bight is pointing the same way.


Andy, PLEASE bear with me here.  Look at your photo, Andy #1, the one under the warm Australian sun, the one that you've been showing with Lee #1.  Imagine at that same moment in time a camera on the other side--a camera that would show the back of your hands. The loop in a picture from that camera would unmistakably be the same loop as Lee's.  Please try to see this.  You would immediately retract your "p.s."

>> I believe there's a point here. Perhaps some of the praise so lavishly spent on the method in that video could be retracted.

Absolutely NOT.  There is no wasted motion at all (at least not in the sense that you claim--I wish I could show him Perry's motion).  He demonstrates a topologically equivalent ABOK #173--the Clove Hitch variation.  (I'd prefer to state that without the "topological" qualifier: It's equivalent to a pseudo-ABOK #173.)  Lee is the man.

Cheers!
Title: Re: Trucker Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: Andy on January 23, 2013, 11:33:57 PM
Keystoner,

After my messages from yesterday and today, I cannot believe we are still arguing.

1. Of course it is "the same loop", in the sense that a loop is a loop is a loop. Would you prefer if I said that it is "the same loop with a different orientation"? In that case, the guy twists once to produce the wrong orientation. He has to twist twice to produce the right orientation, i.e., the orientation that brings him to the point where he is ready to push the bight through.

2. You say: "Andy, PLEASE bear with me here.  (...) Imagine at that same moment in time a camera on the other side"
Yes. I have not been disputing that. My point is that I have twisted once, and I am ready to push the bight through. He has twisted once, and he has the wrong orientation, he still has to do another twist to push the bight through.

3. You say: "There is no wasted motion at all".
Pardon me, but how can you say that, when I am ready to push the bight through after one twist, whereas, after his first twist, you still have to watch that video of the second twist until he is able to push the bight through? That makes no sense to me "at all".

Kind regards,

Andy
Title: Re: One down, one to go.
Post by: Keystoner on January 23, 2013, 11:47:44 PM
Knot4u, I will respond to this and then take a self-imposed 48 hr time-out from this thread.  Where until now we've all been cordial, I don't want to let my frustration with you and Andy break that trend.

>> Look at the pic of ABOK #173.  There is a definite Clove made with the standing end.  It's not kinda sorta like a Clove.  It's actually a complete Clove that goes completely around the bight that passes through the Clove.

I'm in 100% agreement.  This has NEVER been a source of disagreement.

>> Now, because my video is topologically equivalent to ABOK #173 (which you agree by the way), the knot in my video therefore has the topological equivalent to a Clove in there.

I do NOT agree.  Let me be quite clear, once again:  My opinion is that your video demonstrates a topologically equivalent Cow Hitch.  Lee's video demonstrates a topologically equivalent ABOK #173/Clove Hitch.

Since neither your or Lee's TH look ANYTHING like the ABOK #173 figure, you HAVE to qualify equivalence by introducing the word "topologically."  I get that.

>> I think the problem here is that you're just now seeing the Ashley pics.  So, your mind was thinking about this a different way.  Unfortunately, it's the wrong way if the discussion is based on Ashley references from the original post.  Any knot discussion is too unorganized if everybody is allowed to barge in with their own perspective without regard to the common framework for communication.

To be sure, I understand the ABOK figures quite well.  In fact, I suspected exactly what they were clear back to when Andy described them in Reply #143 followed by the ensuing discussion until Andy posted pictures in Reply #150.

You've speculated on the problem.  Now I'll speculate.

Knot4u's nip:  Equivalent to a Bowline nip, the nip is formed with the running part passing OVER and to the LEFT of the standing part.

Knot4u's Half Hitch lock:  The bight passes behind the standing part from left to right, comes around passing OVER and to the LEFT of the standing part.

Since both elements (the running part and the bight) pass from right to left over the standing part, that is, in the SAME direction, your video demonstrates a toplogically equivalent Cow Hitch.

You don't agree with that definition of Cow Hitch.  That's the problem.  You're looking at it wrong.

In case anyone asks, I'll be on Walkabout.
Title: There are none so blind as those who refuse to see.
Post by: Keystoner on January 23, 2013, 11:48:48 PM
Keystoner,

After my messages from yesterday and today, I cannot believe we are still arguing.

1. Of course it is "the same loop", in the sense that a loop is a loop is a loop. Would you prefer if I said that it is "the same loop with a different orientation"? In that case, the guy twists once to produce the wrong orientation. He has to twist twice to produce the right orientation, i.e., the orientation that brings him to the point where he is ready to push the bight through.

2. You say: "Andy, PLEASE bear with me here.  (...) Imagine at that same moment in time a camera on the other side"
Yes. I have not been disputing that. My point is that I have twisted once, and I am ready to push the bight through. He has twisted once, and he has the wrong orientation, he still has to do another twist to push the bight through.

3. You say: "There is no wasted motion at all".
Pardon me, but how can you say that, when I am ready to push the bight through after one twist, whereas, after his first twist, you still have to watch that video of the second twist until he is able to push the bight through? That makes no sense to me "at all".

Kind regards,

Andy

You just couldn't wait to respond, could you?
Title: Video of Single Twist
Post by: Andy on January 24, 2013, 12:18:57 AM
Hi Keystoner,

I am sad that the discussion is making you so unhappy.
To bring us to the same page, I made a video. I hope this will dissolve any frustration and put a smile on your face.

This video shows how I perform the single twist (http://www.asiteaboutnothing.net/pix/knots/Truckers_Single_Twist.avi).

For those of you who are wondering, I am not trying to wrench the vise away from the bench.  ;)
I took the video indoors to help with lighting, and only to showcase the "single twist" part of the truckie.

Now I am crossing my fingers, hoping to hear that this time it is your turn to have an epiphany.
If you tell me that compared to my video, there is no wasted motion in Lee's vid... Then I'll have to drive myself to the vet and get him to put me to sleep.

Looking forward to hearing from you whenever you choose to break your vow of silence. (Hopefully this will help.)

Wishing you a beautiful evening,

Andy
Title: Re: Trucker Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: Andy on January 25, 2013, 12:20:23 AM
Hi Knot4U,

Thanks for watching! First time making and uploading a video.

Quote
Before I answer, what are your thoughts here?  This nip is like or unlike Lee's nip?

Well, you guys have repeatedly told me that my picture #1 (attached for clarity) is the same as Lee's nip. This is the same as picture #1 (I hope!), so I was thinking that it would be the same as Lee's nip.

My idea with this video was to illustrate the confusion about single vs double twist: if you agree that this is Lee's nip, then Lee twists twice to get to this point, as per the slo-mo video (http://www.asiteaboutnothing.net/pix/knots/SloMoTruckie.avi). This is because of different wrist motion / grab on the first twist. Attaching where he is after one twist to illustrate that, which is before the whole second twist action on the slo-mo video takes place.

So my understanding at this stage is that to produce my single twist, I twist once, whereas Lee twists twice, and that is why I had been convinced all this time that he does my "double twist". He does twist twice, it seems, but only to produce my single twist.

If there is agreement on that, then my video would also illustrate that there is wasted motion in Lee's video---see how fast the bight gets grabbed by the nip on my single twist video, and how slow on his, because he twists twice.

Knot4U, I have a feeling that we are finally getting to the bottom of why you and I were having such a hard time seeing the same thing a while ago---you probably saw my "epiphany post (http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1870.msg26121#msg26121)" acknowledging that you were correct (and I incorrect) about the final formation, and explaining the source of my confusion---that the man twists twice in order to get there, while I only twist once.

Crossing my fingers now that you will respond saying that we are now on the same page.
 ;D

Wishing you a fun evening,

Andy
Title: Re: Trucker Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: Andy on January 25, 2013, 08:09:19 PM
Quote
Andy, we are on the same page.

Knot4U, that is truly great to hear. Thank you for the excellent news. For two reasonable people to see such different things, there had to be a reason. What a relief to have solved the mystery.

Quote
Also, I prefer your new convention of calling a single twist a "single twist."

For the record, and I think you will agree, what I call my single twist and my double twist has not changed. What has changed is that I now see that Lee produces a single twist (even though he twists twice). A two-twist single twist if you will---that really threw me off.

I am really impressed that you saw right away that Lee produces a single twist. For me, looking at the grainy video, seeing him twist the rope twice, and not being very good at noticing details such as how ropes cross, it was "obvious" that he was producing a double twist. Do you think you noticed because at the time you used a similar hand motion to Lee's, or because the way the ropes crossed just jumped out at you?

After all that, as mentioned a few weeks ago, I am still experimenting with tying truckies with a single twist rather than the double twist I had been using for years. It takes time to make an old dog change his routine, but I figure that if I give myself a couple of months to try it out and it does work as well as the old way, it will have become ingrained.

Thank you again for bringing this great news.
Wishing you a beautiful weekend,

Andy
Title: Re: Trucker Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: Keystoner on January 26, 2013, 01:31:59 AM
Here is some testing I have done. I would not trust the bell ringer knot.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=dlAyTquJ_HM


Welcome to the forum.

You tested 3 TH's:

1. ABOK #172
It will work if the bight is held up while hauling the working end down.

2.  ABOK #172 + Half Hitch Lock -- Lee Bundy Style
I noticed this same collapse and pointed it out in Replies #183 and #188.  Notice that the TH still worked!  The pulley remained intact.  Good luck untying it though.  I have not experienced that collapse with thicker line and therefore would not extrapolate your results as a blanket dismissal of a Bell Ringer + Half Hitch lock Trucker's Hitch the way you have.  Andy uses a variation on a regular basis in real life applications and Knot4u mentioned his very robust testing earlier in the thread.  And don't forget, the great Lee Bundy uses it.

3.  ABOK #173
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=drkcOzCjuuU
"Make sure you leave this one up and pull."
Title: Re: Trucker Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: Luca on January 26, 2013, 02:46:20 AM
Hi Keystoner,

If I am intruding in this dialogue,is just because I'm sorry that you did not understand what knot4u means when he pointed out that the pulley that he builds for the Quickie Truckie (the term is by Andy) is equivalent to ABOK # 173,so I try to give you a (pathetic, and I apologize to knot4u for this attempt that would overlap with his explanation,from whom I learned,) alternative explanation. Below I attached two diagrams:the one on the left shows how knot4u "closes"the pulley ,the one on the right indicates how "closes" Lee.The portions of the lines in red correspond to the portions of rope which in the reality are doubled during the construction of the pulleys:imagine you do the two loops with rope,as I drew(with the tails,without bights), but with rather long tails; then grab the tails of the two loops (in red in the diagrams) and grab the legs of the loops that correspond to the red legs in the diagrams, and pull so that the turns of rope correspondents to the red turns in the diagrams disappear and the entire portions of the red lines become straight: if you do this with the rope"arranged"as the left diagram(knot4u),you will see a Clove hitch around the portion of rope that corresponds  to the red line;if you do the same with the rope arranged as the right diagram(Lee),you will see a Cow hitch around the portion of rope that corresponds to the red line.Having left the tails long, now you can "re-double "the portions of the rope in "red" (in the diagrams) forming a bight and retracing:you will see a proper"Clove hitched "Bell Ringer #173 looking at the rope originally arranged as the left diagram,and you will see an improper"Cow hitched " Bell Ringer looking at the rope originally arranged as the right diagram.

(http://)             

                                                                                                           Bye!                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
Title: Re: Trucker Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: Keystoner on January 26, 2013, 02:54:23 AM
Thank you.  I see that.  I'm working on my own sketches and discussion.

To be continued...
Title: Re: Trucker Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: diff_lock on January 26, 2013, 08:16:29 PM
Here is some testing I have done. I would not trust the bell ringer knot.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=dlAyTquJ_HM


Welcome to the forum.

You tested 3 TH's:

1. ABOK #172
It will work if the bight is held up while hauling the working end down.

2.  ABOK #172 + Half Hitch Lock -- Lee Bundy Style
I noticed this same collapse and pointed it out in Replies #183 and #188.  Notice that the TH still worked!  The pulley remained intact.  Good luck untying it though.  I have not experienced that collapse with thicker line and therefore would not extrapolate your results as a blanket dismissal of a Bell Ringer + Half Hitch lock Trucker's Hitch the way you have.  Andy uses a variation on a regular basis in real life applications and Knot4u mentioned his very robust testing earlier in the thread.  And don't forget, the great Lee Bundy uses it.

3.  ABOK #173
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=drkcOzCjuuU
"Make sure you leave this one up and pull."

1. Are you saying I didn't? I held the bight up while initially loading the system. Then removed my hand to reposition myself and get a two hand grip on the cord to apply more force to the system. What should I do differently?

2. Lee Bundy does use the extra half hitch but he does not use the bell ringer as I have. He uses an elbow not a loop as used with the bell ringer. http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-UxNQ_VSs_2I/TqoW743xyGI/AAAAAAAAAP0/2WPY5vJ_3js/s1600/bight+loop+elbow+com.jpg

3.When I first applied load to the system the loop was pointing up (less than 45deg from the standing part of the tackle system). I will remake a video of this setup at your request, must be the same cord though as it is what I use and I have no need for stronger cord/rope. I have some 5mm (I think its 5mm) polyester but then my anchors (wooden loft bed and a chair) would fail before the knot (not tested, only speculated and I do not want to damage my furniture).
When using a truckers hitch (usually) your hands are doing other things and holding up a bight isn't always possible (just super sayian).

Title: Re: Trucker Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: Keystoner on January 27, 2013, 01:08:00 AM
>> 1. Are you saying I didn't? I held the bight up while initially loading the system. Then removed my hand to reposition myself and get a two hand grip on the cord to apply more force to the system. What should I do differently?

Yes, that is what I'm saying.  You have to hold that bight up while hauling down.  But as you point out, this is not practical.

>> 2. Lee Bundy does use the extra half hitch but he does not use the bell ringer as I have. He uses an elbow not a loop as used with the bell ringer. http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-UxNQ_VSs_2I/TqoW743xyGI/AAAAAAAAAP0/2WPY5vJ_3js/s1600/bight+loop+elbow+com.jpg

I'll defer to the knot experts when it comes to the lexicon.

>> 3.When I first applied load to the system the loop was pointing up (less than 45deg from the standing part of the tackle system). I will remake a video of this setup at your request, must be the same cord though as it is what I use and I have no need for stronger cord/rope. I have some 5mm (I think its 5mm) polyester but then my anchors (wooden loft bed and a chair) would fail before the knot (not tested, only speculated and I do not want to damage my furniture).

It was knot4u who requested that you test his method.  As I noted in Reply #188, I still got the nip to collapse when tying the bight knot4u style.  I was using boot laces.  You are using 2.8 mm polyester.  I doubt that you will experience a collapse with thicker lines.  Again, extrapolating your results to the size of lines that will actually be used to tie Trucker's Hitches is bad science.

>> When using a truckers hitch (usually) your hands are doing other things and holding up a bight isn't always possible (just super sayian).

Yes, exactly!  A Half Hitch lock will preclude the need to hold the bight while hauling.  That is why, to be sure, I wholeheartedly endorse ABOK #172 + Half Hitch Lock -- Lee Bundy Style.

Title: Re: Trucker Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: Keystoner on January 27, 2013, 01:13:19 AM
However, I don't agree with his comment "Good luck untying it though."

Did you stop reading after that sentence?  ::)

Knot4u, you try to test Lee's or your TH with the size of line that diff_lock and I used in order affect the collapse that he showed in his video and you try to untie it.
Title: Re: Trucker Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: Andy on January 27, 2013, 01:18:21 AM
Hi Keystoner,

Quote
That is why, to be sure, I wholeheartedly endorse ABOK #172 + Half Hitch Lock -- Lee Bundy Style.

So I understand, do you only endorse the structure, or both the structure and the motion?

For the motion, to product that structure, my impression is that:
- my twist motion (http://www.asiteaboutnothing.net/pix/knots/Truckers_Single_Twist.avi) is far more efficient than Lee's "twist twice to make a single twist", and that
- you prefer the snow guy's motion (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PjIi46dZ08M) anyway.

Awaiting your kind confirmation so we can all get on the same page.

Wishing you all a fun weekend,

Andy

[Edited for clarity: "two twists" => "twist twice"]
Title: Re: Trucker Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: Keystoner on January 27, 2013, 01:23:57 AM
Hi Keystoner,

Quote
That is why, to be sure, I wholeheartedly endorse ABOK #172 + Half Hitch Lock -- Lee Bundy Style.

So I understand, do you only endorse the structure, or both the structure and the motion?

For the motion, my impression is that:
- my twist motion (http://www.asiteaboutnothing.net/pix/knots/Truckers_Single_Twist.avi) is far more efficient than Lee's "two twists to make a single twist", and that
- you prefer the snow guy's motion (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PjIi46dZ08M) anyway.

Awaiting your kind confirmation so we can all get on the same page.

Wishing you all a fun weekend,

Andy

We are on the same page but not the same paragraph.  I am working on some sketches for you.  I'm just a little technologically challenged at the moment.  I need to scan my drawings at work on Monday.  Please be patient.
Title: Re: Trucker Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: Andy on January 27, 2013, 01:38:48 AM
Quote
Please be patient.

Okay, that sounds great.
 :)
Title: Re: One down, one to go.
Post by: Keystoner on January 27, 2013, 01:49:42 AM
Before I respond in detail to Knot4u and present my sketches with respect to whether his or Lee's TH is equivalent to ABOK #173, let me respond to his quote below.


BOOM!  We have found the problem.  Your definition of a Cow Hitch is wrong.  You defined Two Half Hitches, which is a Clove.  When you tie Two Half Hitches, you tie precisely what you wrongly call a Cow Hitch.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two_half-hitches

This did not compel me at all!  If a Clove Hitch is two Half Hitches, what is a Cow Hitch, one Half Hitch + WHAT?  A Clove Hitch and a Cow Hitch BOTH consist of two Half Hitches.  What distinguishes the two is the orientation of each Half Hitch with respect to each other and the standing part.  Knot4u linked to Wikipedia's Two Half Hitch entry.  May I direct your attention to the Cow Hitch entry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cow_hitch) where I quote, "The cow hitch comprises a pair of half-hitches tied in opposing directions, as compared to the clove hitch in which the half-hitches are tied in the same direction."
Title: Re: Trucker Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: Luca on January 27, 2013, 03:19:47 AM
Hi diff_lock,

2. Lee Bundy does use the extra half hitch but he does not use the bell ringer as I have. He uses an elbow not a loop as used with the bell ringer. http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-UxNQ_VSs_2I/TqoW743xyGI/AAAAAAAAAP0/2WPY5vJ_3js/s1600/bight+loop+elbow+com.jpg

I watched the video of Lee Bundy and the the second pulley in your video, and in my opinion they are the same: no real elbow in the result of the Lee's structure of the pulley(IMO, or perhaps better, the opinion of my eyes!),the elbow that he seems to make, it seems to me only fictitious/temporary, perhaps the acting in this way is due to his"gestural habit" regarding the realization of the knot, but, in fact, it seems to me, as has been pointed out earlier by Keystoner (and much better than I am doing),Lee seems to realize a simple nipping turn/360 degrees circle loop,as the nipping circle of a Bowline,like your result in your video.

                                                                                                                   Bye!

Title: Re: One down, one to go.
Post by: Keystoner on January 27, 2013, 03:29:20 AM
>> Honestly, your making it more complicated than it is.

Yes, overthinking is a strong suit of mine.

>> I recommend you ask your questions in a new thread.  Perhaps many people explaining it to you from different angles will cause you to step back and rethink.

That won't be necessary.  I've drawn out and rearranged my lines in every way possible.  I do see your Clove Hitch.  But I still see your Cow Hitch.  I'll explain in due time.

Here's a hint:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spinning_Dancer
Title: Re: One down, one to go.
Post by: Keystoner on January 27, 2013, 04:04:19 AM
>> No, starting a new thread is necessary.  I don't have a enough credibility for you, and you are fundamentally off the mark.

No one is compelling you to continue.  I tried to agree to disagree several times.

>>There is no philosophical debate about what Two Half Hitches mean.  It's another name for Clove.  

I agree.

>> Also, once again, in ABOK #173, the Clove is not just kinda sorta there if you look at it a certain way.  In fact, a full complete Clove is plainly there in the standing end.

Where I try to defer the conversation to later...you like to keep it going.  All righty then...

In ABOK #173, a Clove is indisputably there.  In your TH, it is not.  In a Clove Hitch...err...Two Half Hitches...there is one element of the line nipping the other element two times.  If anything, since with your TH we're dealing with two different elements nipping each other one time, we're talking about a pseudo-topological-Fisherman's Bend.  Yeah, that's what you tie in your video: A topological Fisherman's Bend, not a topological ABOK #173.
Title: Re: Trucker Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: diff_lock on January 27, 2013, 02:24:22 PM
Again, extrapolating your results to the size of lines that will actually be used to tie Trucker's Hitches is bad science.

Except the fact that this is the main cordage I use. Do I need to rename the title in the video to specify that the cord is 2.8mm single braid polyester? Done.
Title: Re: Trucker Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: Keystoner on January 27, 2013, 02:28:51 PM
Again, extrapolating your results to the size of lines that will actually be used to tie Trucker's Hitches is bad science.

Except the fact that this is the main cordage I use. Do I need to rename the title in the video to specify that the cord is 2.8mm single braid polyester? Done.
I'll have to defer to the experts for the best method of a TH for that size line. 
Title: Bro?
Post by: Keystoner on January 27, 2013, 03:52:05 PM
>> However, since you're unwilling to start a new thread to discuss your theory, it's like you don't truly believe what you're saying.

I don't have a question.  I don't need to take a poll to validate my position.  I know what I'm saying.  I asked for time to present my "theory" but you'd rather proceed now.  As you wish... (<-- You should understand The Princess Bride reference.)

>> By the way, you're (sic) mentioning of the "pseudo topological Fisherman Bend" with respect to my Trucker Hitch makes you sound like a troll.

If you think I'm a troll, why do you keep engaging?  How do you deal with a troll?  Have you ever heard the expression, "Don't feed the trolls"?  If you do, they'll just keep coming back.  Wait, you keep coming back...does that mean...never mind.  I'm not a troll.

Knot4u, I know you know knots way better than I.  Happy?  No need to be insecure and cry that you don't have credibility with me.  What, I should behold your radiance?  No one can question your eminence?  Yes, I said "Fisherman's Bend."  Do you prefer "Englishman's Knot?"  This is your problem:  you read very selectively (funny, I recall someone questioning another's reading comprehension at one point in this thread); you have your own agenda and you only internalize from others what supports your agenda without trying to understand the whole argument.  Forest for the trees much?  I'll give you an example from yesterday.  You thought I was knocking Lee's TH based on one statement.  If you had been following all along, or tried to understand the juxtaposition of the rest of the paragraph with that statement or tried to understand the context of the response to the question and the video, I doubt you, or any other peer on the forum would have suspected any dislike on my part for the Great Lee Bundy's TH.

Knot4u, did you overlook when I stated, "I do see your Clove Hitch"?  I also understand Luca's cool schematic.  Did you read and visualize "The Spinning Dancer" Wikipedia entry.  Try this one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubin_vase.  Knot4u, you're better than me when it comes to knots.  I'm not a troll.  You should be able to understand why I suggested the Fisherman's/Englishman's knot.

>> You can't rearrange a Clove that is hitched to the working end (e.g., the knot in ABOK #173) to get a Cow Hitch.

I wholeheartedly agree with you.  You can with your TH though.

>> However, you can rearrange a Clove that is hitched to the working end to get a Granny Knot.  Likewise, you can rearrange a Cow that is hitched to the working end to get a Square Knot.

I'm with you, bro.

Once again, you've selectively quoted me.  You quote my description of your locking bight but not the nip.  You HAVE to include that to understand my position.

ABOK #173 is obviously, unquestionably, undeniably, indisputably, certainly, a Clove Hitch.  Your TH is not.  (BTW, I am not the first poster in this thread to question your equating your TH and Lee's to ABOK #173).  To say that your TH is topologically equivalent, is subjective at best.  Let me rearrange a prior quote of mine so that it may be more clear to those who chose to overlook it:  In a Clove Hitch and in ABOK #173, there is one element of line nipping another element two times.  With knot4u's and Lee's TH, there are two different elements nipping each other one time, kinda sorta like a Fisherman's/Englishman's Bend.

I feel your pain, knot4u.  I felt it trying to convince Andy.  We can keep this dance going as long as you wish.
Title: Re: Trucker Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: TMCD on January 27, 2013, 05:13:35 PM
diff_lock
Really good video, can you try my method in that small cord? My method is using ABOK 173 but I do not allow my Clove Hitch to widen like you and most others do in their tying method. I tie the Clove Hitch exactly like you would if you were tying it to a ring or rail, jammed up tight as it should be. I'd be very interested in the results of that scenario.

For the record on my method, which I've tested crudely in Paracord, I've never had it slip or fail. I can report it seems sturdier tying the Clove Hitch method than using the Cow Hitch, (I've tried the Cow Hitch).
Title: Re: Trucker Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: Keystoner on January 27, 2013, 05:30:32 PM
diff_lock
Really good video, can you try my method in that small cord? My method is using ABOK 173 but I do not allow my Clove Hitch to widen like you and most others do in their tying method. I tie the Clove Hitch exactly like you would if you were tying it to a ring or rail, jammed up tight as it should be. I'd be very interested in the results of that scenario.

For the record on my method, which I've tested crudely in Paracord, I've never had it slip or fail. I can report it seems sturdier tying the Clove Hitch method than using the Cow Hitch, (I've tried the Cow Hitch).

Great suggestion!  Diff_lock, what TMCD is describing here when he suggests ABOK #173 is two explicit nips with the standing part around the bight, just like the third TH in your video but he dresses the two nips together to form an unmistakable Clove Hitch.  If that doesn't work, try ABOK #173 + Half Hitch lock.  Now that's the video I'd like to see.
Title: Re: Trucker Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: Keystoner on January 27, 2013, 05:51:41 PM
>> For the record on my method, which I've tested crudely in Paracord, I've never had it slip or fail. I can report it seems sturdier tying the Clove Hitch method than using the Cow Hitch, (I've tried the Cow Hitch).

When you say "Cow Hitch," do you mean you tied both nips with the standing end around the bight to form a Cow Hitch?  This is not what I'm saying Knot4u's TH is at all.
Title: Re: Trucker Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: diff_lock on January 27, 2013, 06:55:21 PM
diff_lock
Really good video, can you try my method in that small cord? My method is using ABOK 173 but I do not allow my Clove Hitch to widen like you and most others do in their tying method. I tie the Clove Hitch exactly like you would if you were tying it to a ring or rail, jammed up tight as it should be. I'd be very interested in the results of that scenario.

For the record on my method, which I've tested crudely in Paracord, I've never had it slip or fail. I can report it seems sturdier tying the Clove Hitch method than using the Cow Hitch, (I've tried the Cow Hitch).

I was not able to get the hitch very tight but at least they are close together. Results are similar to bell ringer + half hitch lock. It slips and then binds.

 http://youtu.be/JDGwa03F3QA

Quote
If that doesn't work, try ABOK #173 + Half Hitch lock.  Now that's the video I'd like to see.

Read this one just after uploading the last vid. I will try this now. http://youtu.be/JfNqF_cpCak
Title: Re: Trucker Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: diff_lock on January 27, 2013, 08:52:25 PM
The simplest Bell Ringer Trucker is already complex in the entire universe of Trucker Hitches.  Tying ABOK #173 plus a Half Hitch lock reminds me of an old saying, "If you don't know how to tie good knots, just tie more knots." Yuck.

Was thinking the same. It isn't even easy to untie after it capsizes.
Title: Re: Trucker Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: Keystoner on January 27, 2013, 11:40:43 PM
>> Simpler versions are plenty secure and don't jam, as demonstrated in your other video, second knot.

Wait, diff_lock, I didn't see ANY of the combinations in your videos NOT jam or completely disintegrate.  Did I miss something?

>> Tying ABOK #173 plus a Half Hitch lock reminds me of an old saying, "If you don't know how to tie good knots, just tie more knots."

And the proof is in the pudding.  Thanks for that video, diff_lock.  I wish you luck and I am very curious for you to find the right combination for that size line.

And thanks for that old adage, knot4u.  I will use that to discourage others from just adding more knots.
Title: You did it!
Post by: Keystoner on January 28, 2013, 12:32:47 AM
>> That looks like it collapsed into my version of ABOK #173.

That was all it took.  I read this and thought, "How can that be?"  I tied at true explicit two nip ABOK #173, per the figure.  I took the top nip and collapsed it.  It was exactly knot4u's ABOK #172 + Half Hitch lock -- Knot4u Style!

I'm still going to show you where I was coming from--from an engineering standpoint, free body diagrams and all.  Can you be patient there ol' pal?
Title: Re: Trucker Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: diff_lock on January 28, 2013, 12:57:21 AM
Wait, diff_lock, I didn't see ANY of the combinations in your videos NOT jam or completely disintegrate.  Did I miss something?

Thanks for that video, diff_lock.  I wish you luck and I am very curious for you to find the right combination for that size line.

All knots in my videos "failed". But the knot knot4u was talking about is the bell ringer + half hitch lock. Even though it slipped and jammed knot4u is saying that there is no need to go all out and make a ABOK #173 + half hitch lock which will eventually ALSO slip and jam.

He is saying that you can get the same result (slip and jam) with both knots so why go the extra step required for an ABOK #173 + half hitch lock knot. That is how I understood knot4u's post.

EDIT: I am also now lost. Disregard my paraphrasing of knot4u.

I use a span loop almost exclusively for my truckers hitches and versatackle systems for the sole reason that it is so easy to untie. 
Title: Re: Trucker Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: Keystoner on January 28, 2013, 12:59:41 AM
Wait, diff_lock, I didn't see ANY of the combinations in your videos NOT jam or completely disintegrate.  Did I miss something?

Thanks for that video, diff_lock.  I wish you luck and I am very curious for you to find the right combination for that size line.

All knots in my videos "failed". But the knot knot4u was talking about is the bell ringer + half hitch lock. Even though it slipped and jammed knot4u is saying that there is no need to go all out and make a ABOK #173 + half hitch lock which will eventually ALSO slip and jam.

He is saying that you can get the same result (slip and jam) with both knots so why go the extra step required for an ABOK #173 + half hitch lock knot.

I use a span loop almost exclusively for my truckers hitches and versatackle systems for the sole reason that it is so easy to untie.

Definitely.  That was just an idea and I'm glad you proved it wasn't advantageous.  Please keep us informed as to the best combination you find for that size line.

ETA:  You're saying you use a Span Loop.  Well how about a video?  ;)  Only if it is convenient for you...
Title: Re: Trucker Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: diff_lock on January 28, 2013, 04:03:28 AM
Not sure if something like this has already been posted.

 http://youtu.be/6V3xH7nA3aA


Infinite rope solution. Tested with a few cords and rope, all held. But honestly I have very limited testing abilities.

Isn't the Bowline with a bight a infinite rope solution too? "Bowline With A Bight (ABOK #1074)"

I don't have the book so I cannot be sure on what exactly it is.
Title: Re: Trucker Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: diff_lock on January 28, 2013, 04:32:18 AM
Ok, so what is a Bowline With a Bight?
Title: Re: Trucker Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: diff_lock on January 28, 2013, 05:10:16 AM
When ever I needed a loop in a hurry I would just slap a bowline with a bight. This was before I knew much about knots. Now with all this testing, and verification I second guess myself all the time.

This forum has ruined me. Btw I have been reading this forum for over a year. I just joined a few days ago. 

Speaking of testing, I was able to break a 1.4mm polyester cord with that butterfly loop bell ringer thing. It broke at the butterfly portion.
Title: Re: Trucker Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: TMCD on January 28, 2013, 08:20:25 PM
I need someone to test my Trucker's Hitch configuration, ABOK 173....but I JAM the Clove Hitch together. There's no in between space like what's presented in ABOK 173 where the Clove Hitch is widely seperated. Can I get a test on my method and have it put up on video please? I'm somewhat computer/video challenged or else I would conduct the test and put it up for the world to see.

Who ever does this, kindly tie the Clove Hitch and tighten it down just as you would if tying it to a ring or pipe, there's no seperation in my method. I'm curious as to what kind of security my method produces. Thanks in advance...and I've got a lot of catching up to do, you guys have done some really good testing and advancement it appears.

Sorry, I just noticed an honest attempt was made to test my method, didn't see it before I posted this though. I would like to see my method tested with that Clove Hitch nice and tight though, your test was really good but I can get that sucker much tighter than you did in that testing...no offense. It appears that my method was at least as good as most or better? I wonder how much pressue/loading it actually took for your pulley system to make my Trucker Hitch slip in that video?

Thanks again, Troy.
Title: Re: Trucker Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: diff_lock on January 28, 2013, 11:18:52 PM
I need someone to test my Trucker's Hitch configuration, ABOK 173....but I JAM the Clove Hitch together. There's no in between space like what's presented in ABOK 173 where the Clove Hitch is widely seperated. Can I get a test on my method and have it put up on video please? I'm somewhat computer/video challenged or else I would conduct the test and put it up for the world to see.

Who ever does this, kindly tie the Clove Hitch and tighten it down just as you would if tying it to a ring or pipe, there's no seperation in my method. I'm curious as to what kind of security my method produces. Thanks in advance...and I've got a lot of catching up to do, you guys have done some really good testing and advancement it appears.

Sorry, I just noticed an honest attempt was made to test my method, didn't see it before I posted this though. I would like to see my method tested with that Clove Hitch nice and tight though, your test was really good but I can get that sucker much tighter than you did in that testing...no offense. It appears that my method was at least as good as most or better? I wonder how much pressue/loading it actually took for your pulley system to make my Trucker Hitch slip in that video?

Thanks again, Troy.

I would like to see someone tighten a clove hitch around polyester cord using polyester cord. It wont stick. I understand what you want but with the material I use a clove does not hold.
Title: Re: Trucker Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: Keystoner on January 29, 2013, 12:17:03 AM
I would like to see someone tighten a clove hitch around polyester cord using polyester cord. It wont stick. I understand what you want but with the material I use a clove does not hold.

Do you find that the Span Loop that you uses does not perform satisfactorily?  In order to help others to better advise you, what is the application for which you use the small gauge polyester?
Title: Re: Trucker Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: Keystoner on January 29, 2013, 12:27:24 AM
The Span Loop is unrelated to the issue he was discussing.

knot4u, diff_lock mentioned that he uses a Span Loop for his Trucker Hitches.  I thought he was here in order to investigate an appropriate Trucker Hitch combination for the small size line he uses.  If the Span Loop is already working satisfactorily for him, then I misunderstood his intentions.  Perhaps he can answer the question that I directed to him.
Title: Re: Trucker Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: diff_lock on January 29, 2013, 02:27:54 AM
I would like to see someone tighten a clove hitch around polyester cord using polyester cord. It wont stick. I understand what you want but with the material I use a clove does not hold.

Do you find that the Span Loop that you uses does not perform satisfactorily?  In order to help others to better advise you, what is the application for which you use the small gauge polyester?

The span loop works very well for me. My purpose was to show that a bell ringer and current variants are not secure (excluding the butterfly variant which held). But as many pointed out it might be just for my small slippery cordage.

I use this cordage in truckers hitch / versatackle setups everywhere. I used it to attach power strips to polls and beams for cable management, hang a bicycle for maintenance, and mount a hat rack ( should provide pics later if I don't forget). I setup a clothes line for the community too. Cord was white, braided and 4mm. Not sure if polyester.

For quick clothes lines and tying down small cargo such as back packs I find an adjustable grip hitch to be sufficient.
Title: Re: Trucker Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: diff_lock on January 29, 2013, 02:55:35 AM
As to WHY I use this cord: It feels really nice, like silk, it is what I found locally, stretches less than paracord, strong enough for most of my uses, and easy to edc over 10 yards.

Oh I am using a versatackle right now to stiffen up a Ikea Expedit shelf by using the cord as a huge clamp. Old shelf got a bit loose and a versatackle around keeps it tighter together.

I have used the same cordage to lower a table top onto/ into a table frame, Ikea Jerker 2.

I am using 2mm polypropylene in versatackle configuration to hold a hard disk into a USB to IDE card / external housing.
Title: Re: Trucker Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: TMCD on January 29, 2013, 02:21:27 PM
Try the Bell Ringer using the Constrictor and ABOK 1244, it works well in each but can be a pain to untie I'm sure. What happens is that both of these knots collapse or distort but won't slip or give out from my experiences. The same with my method, a really tight Clove Hitch is a great way to tie the TH, you're just not skilled enough as a knot master to be able to know how to efficiently tie a tight Clove Hitch using the Bell Ringer, it's not hard.

I don't know what if anything I can take away from your video's at this point because TH are simply not pulled apart by a pulley system as the driver is driving down the road. The only Bell Ringer I wouldn't use is ABOK 172, that one scares me. On top of that, we've got over 100 years of Bell Ringer experience in the form of truck drivers, farmers and construction people using it with absolutely no problems...and guess what, they were using ABOK 172 with hairy rope...

Your tests are much appreciated though, although I hope you're not coming here to dismiss the Bell Ringer varities as useless or harmful, not gonna fly with most here. In somewhat slippery cordage as it appears you are testing with, it's actually a testament to those various Bellringer's security that they did as well as they did. To really gain any perspective from those tests and the various securities of each, you would need to test in various ropes, not just small, slick cordage.
Title: Re: Trucker Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: diff_lock on January 29, 2013, 02:41:54 PM
So using a bell ringer or #173 the rope would break before the knot capsizes? Only in cases of small slick cordage do these knots capsize before the rope breaks?
Title: Re: Trucker Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: TMCD on January 29, 2013, 05:08:49 PM
So using a bell ringer or #173 the rope would break before the knot capsizes? Only in cases of small slick cordage do these knots capsize before the rope breaks?
Oh no, I'm not saying that at all, far from it. I'm sure ABOK 173 would eventually slip in almost any rope given enough pull from your pulley system. How much pull are you actually putting on these various tests knots before they slip? Have you recorded the results, documenting which one holds best etc.? What's the cord you're using rated, 80lb breaking strength? It takes a whole lot to break a rope and generally takes much, much more than the rated breaking strength shown on the package.

These knots will hold up much better in rope that's not as slick. They should also hold up better in rope that's more rigid. Tying the BellRinger using the Constrictor or ABOK 1244 would be interesting to see the results, I used to tie my TH this way but it's very fiddly.
Title: Andy...
Post by: Keystoner on February 02, 2013, 02:32:47 PM
Andy, it's been more than a week; if you've lost interest, I understand...

>> So I understand, do you only endorse the structure, or both the structure and the motion?

>> For the motion, to product (sic) that structure, my impression is that...

This gives me great insight into your mindset Andy.  From the beginning, where you've been overly focused on the motion to the exclusion of the structure, I've been focused on the structure.

>> Do you think you noticed because at the time you used a similar hand motion to Lee's, or because the way the ropes crossed just jumped out at you?

Because of the way the ropes crossed jumped out at me!  I can spot that Bowline nip no matter how it's formed.

For now, if you don't mind, I'd like to focus on the structure.  I will be happy to address your fallacious wasted motion theory once we get on the same page with regard to the structure.  Ok?

I've drawn four figures (see below, and don't laugh!) as follows:

Figure 1:  This is Lee's loop/nip as achieved after one counterclockwise turn with his right hand.  The loop is as it appears in picture Lee #1 that Andy has reproduced several times.  Please pay particular attention to the way the lines cross.  Notice the label "Down Rope" is as Andy has previously defined.  Reproduce this exactly and then rotate the loop 90 degrees in the clockwise direction about the plane of the loop.  The result is Figure 2.

Figure 2:  Flip the loop about the axis of the line 180 degrees away from you (clockwise with your right hand).  The result is Figure 3.

Figure 3:  Pay particular attention to the relationship of the crossing lines.

Figure 4:  This is Andy #1 that Andy has reproduced several times.  Pay particular attention to the relationship of the crossing lines.

Is it now clear that Lee's loop and Andy's loop are EXACTLY the same?  They are not merely "like" each other.

They are not the same..

...with a different orientation.
...by symmetry.
...due to a reflected image.
...due to opposite hand.
...because "a loop is a loop is a loop."

They are EXACTLY the same.

>> [From Reply #245]:  Looking closely at the two pictures, I see that they do not show the same loop. [Edit to clarify:] On mine, the "down rope" crosses behind. On his, it crosses in front.

Is it clear why one might think they are different since in Andy #1, the "down rope" appears to cross behind and in Lee #1 it appears to cross in front, and that this is simply due to a different vantage point of the exact same loop?

(http://i1300.photobucket.com/albums/ag81/KeystonerIGKT/Andy_zps5613a2bd.jpg)
Title: Re: Trucker Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: Andy on February 02, 2013, 09:25:29 PM
Quote
Flip the loop about the axis of the line 180 degrees away from you

If you have to flip it 180 degrees to get something that is "exactly the same", then it is not exactly the same.
End of discussion.

Quote
I will be happy to address your fallacious wasted motion theory
I assume this refers to this:
Quote
3. You say: "There is no wasted motion at all".
Pardon me, but how can you say that, when I am ready to push the bight through after one twist, whereas, after his first twist, you still have to watch that video of the second twist until he is able to push the bight through? That makes no sense to me "at all".
on this post (http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1870.msg26146#msg26146), made even clearer for you by my video on this post. (http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1870.msg26150#msg26150)

If your hero's multi-second fumbling multi-twist to produce a single twist is not wasted motion compared my split-second super-simple single-twist on my video, then I have only one answer for you: Fallacious yourself.
Also end of discussion.
Title: ~Sigh~
Post by: Keystoner on February 02, 2013, 10:22:43 PM
Again, there are none so blind as those who refuse to see.

If your hero's multi-second fumbling multi-twist to produce a single twist is not wasted motion...
:)

End of discussion.
I'm thankful we can conclude on something with which we agree.  ;)

Knot4u, I will grant your request to start a new thread with respect to our discussion.  I will give you all the credit you deserve.  I'd still like for you and others to evaluate my argument so you can see why I thought what I thought.  I have some sketches but it might take another week before I can get them scanned and uploaded.
Title: Re: Trucker Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: TMCD on February 04, 2013, 02:11:46 AM
For those of you who have bashed, written off or kicked the ole Bell Ringer, I've found another little charmer that all starts off with the BellRinger. Try tying ABOK 1150 as the midline knot in the Trucker's Hitch and it seems to be rock solid with little problems of jamming....good looking and promising knot. Would work well in almost all situations IMO, it's tied just a little differently than ABOK 1074...proper name is the Bowline Shortening.

Title: Re: Trucker Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: Benboncan on February 04, 2013, 10:23:21 AM
For those of you who have bashed, written off or kicked the ole Bell Ringer, I've found another little charmer that all starts off with the BellRinger. Try tying ABOK 1150 as the midline knot in the Trucker's Hitch and it seems to be rock solid with little problems of jamming....good looking and promising knot. Would work well in almost all situations IMO, it's tied just a little differently than ABOK 1074...proper name is the Bowline Shortening.


Any chance of an image for those of us without ABOK?
Title: Re: Trucker Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: TMCD on February 04, 2013, 08:18:54 PM
The only real difference between ABOK 1074 and this knot is the way the final dressing appears. In 1074 you tuck the final dressing in front of the knotted structure but in 1150 you tuck the final dressing behind the knotted structure. It's a small difference and I'm not sure  how much of an impact it has but Ashley says it's relatively jam proof, so there's the difference in my eyes. It looks to be rock solid and would be an excellent choice for the trucker's hitch IMO but many of these knots are as long as we're not pushing them to the extremes, which of course you're not suppossed to do with rope anyway.
Title: Re: Trucker Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: TMCD on February 04, 2013, 11:48:59 PM
If you've got the book Knot4U, then it's the last step in the knotting process of each knot that's different. You've got to open the book to each page and glance at the knots all at the same time to even notice the difference in the final dressings. Again, the knots are ABOK 1074 & ABOK 1150, with both appearing to be excellent choices but I thought you guys had shot down 1074 so 1150 looks like the best bet.
Title: Re: Trucker Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: Keystoner on February 06, 2013, 02:03:07 AM
I'm with Benboncan. Would somebody provide the images for ABOK #1150 & #1074 please?
Title: Re: Trucker Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: diff_lock on February 06, 2013, 09:40:34 AM
In for diagrams.
Title: Re: Trucker Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: Dan_Lehman on February 07, 2013, 05:25:42 AM
I'm with Benboncan. Would somebody provide the images for ABOK #1150 & #1074 please?

verbal images :

tied like the common bowline #1010,
but using a bight vice single-strand working end,
hence getting (if desired for use) two eyes --the
normal one, and this tail bight;

in #1150, Ashley indicates that the tail bight is
tucked through the central nipping loop so that
it is crosses itself slightly and is against the
crossing-part of the nipping loop (i.e., where the
SPart has come full circle to complete the loop);
This is the position that the draw of the SPart upon
loading would tend to pull this tail bight.

Whereas in #1074, although with less indiction in
his tying image, he shows the finished knot with
the tail bight crossing itself on the away-from-this-spot
point (so its first pass "through the hole" is what is
against the SPart's crossing point).  (One might put
a bowline's tail here in anticipation of loading's draw
moving it around, and then under load it would come
to be where many illustrations show it : centered
between the eye legs (and not pulled up & across
the tail-side eye leg --which is the direction one takes
it, e.g., when making the infamous "Yosemite bowline",
so beloved by Agent_Smith.

Now, aside from where the tail-bight as a hole is
taken, there is also the aspect of which side of this
tail-bight has the actual tail and which is the parallel
side --in loading it (the tail, i.e., partly) as part of the
trucker's hitch this aspect might play more of a role
in determining how "jamming" it is.  (Frankly, I was
quite surprised and skeptical to read Knot4U's remark
about this "jamming up" on him!?  It's a bowline,
so it shouldn't jam (esp. in working loads!).


--dl*
====
Title: Re: Trucker Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: Dan_Lehman on February 08, 2013, 06:42:33 AM
I guess it was the first time I really tested the knot's limits.
Or yours.
Quote
... "super fiddly" means I'll need to take my gloves off,
or at the very least it means I'll look like a rookie.
Think "ski mask" --not just for skiers & robbers.

 ;)
Title: Re: Trucker Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: TMCD on February 08, 2013, 03:15:45 PM
Did you try ABOK 1150 Knot4U? Same exact knot just dressed different at the end, I'm assuming you have a copy of Ashley's bible.
Title: Re: Trucker Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: quahog on February 09, 2013, 01:46:38 AM
"Now for something completely different..."
How about using a zeppelin for the loop?  Not a typical zeppelin end loop but an in-line zeppelin loop.  Probably overkill since the butterfly would work just as well and be easier to tie.

Here's a pic of my zeppelin truckers hitch.  (zepplin is the top, slipped half hitch on the loop)

(http://i48.tinypic.com/2lwa9me.jpg)
Title: Re: Trucker Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: TMCD on February 09, 2013, 09:25:18 PM
After tying the Trucker's Hitch using ABOK 1150 as the mid line loop five or six different times using some paracord, this knot is pretty darn good. I would be very confident using this knot is just about any situation, I couldn't get it to jam up. I was putting most of my weight on the pulling end of the Trucker's Hitch after tying it between two poles outside that sit on a grade. I got some serious weight and pulling ability because of the grade situation, (one pole is a little higher than the other and I'm on the down hill pole using my weight as leverage), and I couldn't get it to jam up, slip or anything.

This is a really good midline loop for tying the Trucker's Hitch, it's weakness would be that it's just a little bit fiddly to tie but from my perspective, MANY GOOD KNOTS are fiddly to tie. I'm not even sure it would be that fiddly after a little practice, so it's a stud in my book.
Title: Re: Trucker Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: quahog on February 09, 2013, 10:19:28 PM
Hi quahog and welcome!

I am not familiar with how to tie an in-line Zeppelin Loop, which is the same thing on a Zeppelin Loop on a bight, correct?  I cannot figure out how tie it how you have it here.

Hi, and thanks for the welcome.

I've moved my in-line zeppelin instructions to a new thread: http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4263.0

As for my normal truckers hitch, I use a butterfly and to tie off a slipped HH and then a HH using the bight.  I'm pretty sure I've never used any kind of slipped loop.  I'm liking the idea of the bowline with a bight (ABOK #1074) so that you can use an infinite line....this is the same as the midspan sheet bend.  Using this you can even just pull a bight through the second anchor point, your bight will go through your bowline thingy and then tie off your slipped HH using a bight (bights bights bights).  ;)  I need to buy some longer cord so I can take a pic.
Title: Re: Trucker Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: TMCD on February 10, 2013, 01:30:14 AM
ABOK 1150 is proving itself over and over to me, I've played around with it for an hour or so and it's a GREAT midline knot for the TH...at least in paracord. I'll test some other ropes tomorrow and see how they perform. ABOK 1150 opens up VERY easy every time I tie the TH and I've used the double shank TH too, creating double the mechanical advantage in theory and it still opens easily. I've found the bomb knot, try folks, you'll enjoy it once you master tying ABOK 1150.
Title: Re: Trucker Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: roo on February 10, 2013, 02:02:09 AM
I've found the bomb knot, try folks, you'll enjoy it once you master tying ABOK 1150.
For the application, I don't think most people are going to turn to a double loop loop knot (ABOK 1150) any more than they are going to tie a loop that cannot be made on the bight (cf. quahog).
Title: Re: Trucker Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: TMCD on February 10, 2013, 03:21:12 AM
I've found the bomb knot, try folks, you'll enjoy it once you master tying ABOK 1150.
For the application, I don't think most people are going to turn to a double loop loop knot (ABOK 1150) any more than they are going to tie a loop that cannot be made on the bight (cf. quahog).

Wrong, people will turn to ABOK 1150 once they realize how easy it unties after heavy loads AND how secure it is. I haven't seen a better midline loop for the TH...
Title: Re: Trucker Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: quahog on February 10, 2013, 03:45:16 AM
For the application, I don't think most people are going to turn to a double loop loop knot (ABOK 1150) any more than they are going to tie a loop that cannot be made on the bight (cf. quahog).

Don't worry, I realize my in-line zeppelin is a ridiculous option for the mid-line loop.

As for ABOK 1150, I think the confusion is that TMCD is using it as a single loop (make the second loop small and just not use it).  This allows you to tie the truckers without passing the line through the loop (like how it's done with the bellringer).
Title: Re: Trucker Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: diff_lock on February 10, 2013, 04:05:03 AM
I still have no idea which knots TMCD is referring to. Why continued use of some proprietary naming convention?

Pics or it didn't happen.

>2013
>on internet forum
>not posting pics of complicated structures

I shiggy.  Link deleted by moderator. Tested and found malware. Not knot related.
Title: Re: Trucker Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: quahog on February 10, 2013, 04:44:06 AM
I still have no idea which knots TMCD is referring to. Why continued use of some proprietary naming convention?

Pics or it didn't happen.

>2013
>on internet forum
>not posting pics of complicated structures

I shiggy. http://reactionimages.tumblr.com/post/22773079993

I believe this is the knot TMCD is using:

Loose:
(http://i45.tinypic.com/2rz5t95.jpg)

Set:
(http://i48.tinypic.com/illr1g.jpg)
Title: Re: Trucker Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: roo on February 10, 2013, 05:57:52 AM
As for ABOK 1150, I think the confusion is that TMCD is using it as a single loop (make the second loop small and just not use it).  This allows you to tie the truckers without passing the line through the loop (like how it's done with the bellringer).
This can be done with any single loop:
http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4245.msg26266#msg26266



Title: Re: Trucker Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: TMCD on February 10, 2013, 04:52:23 PM
Quahog is correct, sorry I'm not the most computer savvy, hence no pictures or diagrams, thanks so much Quahog. That is correct knot, ABOK 1150 and it's tied correct in those pics. I'm only using it as a single loop knot as was pointed out above.

I came to this knot after diff_lock tested many of the BellRinger options we use as midline knots and he shot most of them down in his testing. Diff_lock, if you have time, you need to test this knot on your device in that slippery, small cordage you were using. This knot has the capability to pass your test IMO.

It must be noted that Diff_lock's testing is done at an extreme level and many of those knots that either slipped or failed would work well "in the field".
Title: Re: Trucker Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: diff_lock on February 11, 2013, 12:16:50 PM
Diff_lock, if you have time, you need to test this knot on your device in that slippery, small cordage you were using. This knot has the capability to pass your test IMO.

It must be noted that Diff_lock's testing is done at an extreme level and many of those knots that either slipped or failed would work well "in the field".

I have used the bowline with a bight and it does indeed hold very well. I use slippery cord so it was easy to untie. I can and will test this just to "get it on tape". Might learn something myself.

As Roo said, this can be done with any single loop knot.

I think the bowline on a bight is instinctual, you're suck in the middle of the rope, need a loop, grab a bight and form a bowline out of instinct. At least for me that is the case. In a hurry (I have said this before) I will throw a bowline up before anything else.
Title: Re: Trucker Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: mat on March 31, 2013, 03:42:05 PM
Hi

I have a mid line loop which I have been playing around with which I think is a different configuration of the farmers loop but I'm not sure. It is non jamming and is really easy to untie and seems as strong as a span loop and can be pulled in all directions. I tie this a bit different to the farmers loop way of tying it. Here a few pics

front
(http://i1354.photobucket.com/albums/q681/mtrarcher/2qte7uu_zps27ed1849.jpg)

back
(http://i1354.photobucket.com/albums/q681/mtrarcher/23ligeu_zpsc833a60b.jpg)
Title: Re: Trucker Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: mat on March 31, 2013, 11:23:54 PM
It doesn't need the ends to be tied

pics of how I tie it.
(http://i1354.photobucket.com/albums/q681/mtrarcher/e9vvw1_zps053d04c8.jpg)
(http://i1354.photobucket.com/albums/q681/mtrarcher/2mxplih_zpse326b3f0.jpg)
(http://i1354.photobucket.com/albums/q681/mtrarcher/53jz9s_zpsa482e26e.jpg)

Title: Re: Trucker Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: Ruby on April 22, 2013, 03:56:14 PM
 If it's the
use of a loop to build a MA leveraging structure (Trucker's/Wagoner's H.), then it's an
inlineloop function, to which the Butterfly is an awkward solution; the Inline
Fig.10 might be the most robust, for some heavier uses where end-2-end loading absent
eye loading might occur.  But for quick Trucker's H. building, borrowing on the Bwl's
quick tying & untying seems best.  Where that Sheepshank-like common knot might seem
a bit TOO quick & unstable, the simple further tucking of the end bight to make #1074
removes all doubt, and provides additional material at the wear point (dbl.eye).
(There are some single Bwl-in-bight that can work here.)  Heck, just an Overhand or
Fig.8 loopknot works as well--they're pretty non-jamming in an offsetorientation.

 Reply #33 on: January 08, 2005, 06:00:55 AM ?
Title: Re: Trucker Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: Dan_Lehman on April 22, 2013, 07:59:00 PM
If it's the ...

 Reply #33 on: January 08, 2005, 06:00:55 AM ?

This would be part of my post in "Best of Breed Knots" thread here:
 http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=30.msg232#msg232 (http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=30.msg232#msg232)


--dl*
====
Title: Re: Trucker Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: Ruby on April 23, 2013, 12:30:52 AM
If it's the ...

 Reply #33 on: January 08, 2005, 06:00:55 AM ?

This would be part of my post in "Best of Breed Knots" thread here:
 http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=30.msg232#msg232 (http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=30.msg232#msg232)




--dl*
====


yes i copied it, sorry  I  should have mentioned all this all info.


Although it's old post 8 years ago I just see it yesterday and I think it fits here so I add it here



 :D
Title: Re: Trucker Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: emp on May 09, 2013, 12:38:10 AM
Hello,
I have lurked around this forum for a while but this is my first post.  This is an excellent thread, just when I thought I knew about a subject I find there is much more to learn!  I have been tying trucker's hitches for years with (typically) a timber hitch for the first anchor, a slipped figure 8 for the pulley, and a slipped half hitch for the final tie down.  Very interesting to hear how others tie it and learn some possible improvements.

Some questions for knot4u:
In your first post you list your winners and losers for the pulley knot.  I assume they are in order of rank, i.e. they are listed in order best to worst from top to bottom?  If true can you explain why one is better than another or why you consider the knot a loser instead of a winner?  Perhaps your first post could be edited with a brief description of why you ranked each knot the way you did. 

Secondly, do you also have a list of the knots you consider winners and losers for the first anchor and the last tie off?
Title: Re: Trucker Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: emp on May 16, 2013, 06:04:50 AM
So is the final knot using a slipped half hitch followed by another half hitch with the bight tied around one of the lines traveling to the second anchor or both?  Any advantages one way or the other?
Title: Re: ABoK#1148 as a double Trucker s hitch loop
Post by: xarax on August 17, 2013, 11:07:28 AM
A quicker but less dependable lashing is based on BELL RINGER'SKNOT #1148

  It would be interesting to test the "double" Bell Ringer s loop ( ABoK#1148 ) as a double Trucker s hitch loop, in the spirit of (1).
1.   http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=2812.0

The core knot on which the two eyes are hanged is a Clove hitch. I have seen that the Clove hitch can jam badly under high load, while the Girth hitch can not (1), so, for a double loop Trucker s hitch, I would prefer a communicating double (=two eyes) loop made from a Girth hitch, rather than a Clove hitch, as ABoK#1148.

1.   http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4347.0


Title: Re: Trucker Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: xarax on August 17, 2013, 12:41:21 PM
You say two eyes, but your link is to a one-eye loop.

  Do not pay attention to what penetrates the central core, see how it is made. When the central core is made of / based on a Clove hitch, it can jam, either this Clove hitch encircles 2 legs of one eye, or 4 legs of two eyes ( or three legs of two eyes, when the one leg of the one eye is a direct continuation of the one leg of the other eye, i.e. the two eyes are communicating directly, as in the pictures of the double Trucker s hitch I show ).
  My link is to a test on the Clove hitch, in comparison to the Girth hitch, as a core around the roots of the legs of eyes, be them 2 ( one eye ), or  3 / 4 ( two eyes ).
  What I am proposing is to replace the Clove hitch-based double nipping turn of ABoK#1148, with a Girth hitch-based one.

Title: Re: ABoK#1148 as a double Trucker s hitch loop
Post by: roo on August 17, 2013, 05:00:24 PM
A quicker but less dependable lashing is based on BELL RINGER'SKNOT #1148

  It would be interesting to test the "double" Bell Ringer s loop ( ABoK#1148 ) as a double Trucker s hitch loop, in the spirit of (1).
1.   http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=2812.0

The core knot on which the two eyes are hanged is a Clove hitch. I have seen that the Clove hitch can jam badly under high load, while the Girth hitch can not (1), so, for a double loop Trucker s hitch, I would prefer a communicating double (=two eyes) loop made from a Girth hitch, rather than a Clove hitch, as ABoK#1148.
The 1148 is loaded differently than a simple clove hitch, and does not jam.
Title: Re: ABoK#1148 as a double Trucker s hitch loop
Post by: xarax on August 17, 2013, 06:32:27 PM
The 1148 is loaded differently than a simple clove hitch, and does not jam.

   I have shown a double loop based on the ABoK#1148, which is NOT a double loop, of course - and that is why I had used the quotation marks in my original reference. The ABoK#1148 is a TIB method / knot to shorten the rope. The double loop I had presented (1) is genuine double loop with communicating eyes, which I had proposed as a Trucker s hitch double loop, to address the problem of the excessive wear at the tip of the eye of the Trucker s hitch single loop.
   I know very well that the Clove hitch at the core of the ABoK#1148 jams, because I have tested it. I have presented a case where the difference regarding jamming between a Clove hitch and a Girth hitch, as core nipping/ anchoring structures on which the roots of the eye legs are attached, is explained in detail. The Clove hitch seems an innocent knot, but it can be self-locked and so accumulate a great amount of tensile forces, via a ratchet - like shrinking mechanism, until it becomes rock solid, and unable to be released / untied any more.
   Now, one can read whatever he wishes out of my posts, and he can misunderstand or pretend he misunderstood anything he wishes, just to fabricate an one-liner "wisdom". I do not misunderstand this, neither I pretend I misunderstand this !         

1. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1870.msg21393#msg21393
Title: Re: Trucker Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: xarax on August 18, 2013, 07:00:38 AM
  In both versions, the first returning eye leg, of the first of the two loops, as well as the second returning eye leg, of the second of the two loops, can penetrate the hitch entering into it by the one or the other side ( 4 combinations ) .That may affect easiness of untying, too.
Title: Re: ABoK#1148 as a double Trucker s hitch loop
Post by: xarax on August 19, 2013, 06:22:48 AM
After some quick testing, I found the Girth version more difficult to untie.

When the Clove hitch jams, it is not difficult, it is impossible to untie it...This never happens with the Girth hitch, which can not accumulate the tensile forces within it, as the Clove hitch does.
Title: Re: Trucker Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: Festy on August 19, 2013, 09:03:00 AM
My favourite way to tie the Trucker's Hitch at present - after lots of experimenting - is to employ the Versatackle variation as follows:

Slipped Buntline as the anchor.

Alpine Butterfly x 2 as the loop.

There is tremendous satisfaction when you exert a bit of force when tightening down and you feel the rope becoming as taut as a banjo string and remaining like that when you relax the pull.

And having to be careful at times not to over tighten because the load might be damaged.

Brilliant system, guys!  :)
Title: Re: Trucker Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
Post by: xarax on August 19, 2013, 11:39:19 AM
Brilliant system, guys!  :)

   It is called "simple machine", and it offers what is called "mechanical advantage" (1). More specifically, it is but a rope-made block and tackle mechanism (2). The new "knotting" thing here is the way one secures the tail by placing it in between two tensioned opposed bights - the rims of the two collars of those bights meet the penetrating tail at the right angle, the right angle, so they bite hard into it, so they are able to immobilize it. Simple, but most effective !

1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simple_machine
2. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Block_and_tackle
Title: Re: Favorite Way to Tie Trucker's Hitch
Post by: NotSure on October 11, 2013, 06:29:02 PM
This has been such a great reading thread and has made me consider sheave options for an infinite length rope. My vote goes to the Bowline With a Bight ABoK #1150. It is also now, my favorite double loop knot. Thanks for that!  :)

The knot mentioned on page 2 of this thread:

...the slipped OH with the loop half-hitched above.../...The OH&HHL.../...In Geoffrey Budworth's book, I found this loop and he calls it a overhand knot and half hitch...

This is the ABoK #1021 leader loop and is my all-time favorite mid-line loop. But strangely enough, I have the opposite opinion, finding the half-hitch lock not too bad to untie after loading. In fact, that's my preferred method of loading this knot (on the HH Lock, instead of the overhand). Up to now, this has been my go-to knot for a trucker's hitch. See image below:

Title: Re: DELETED
Post by: diff_lock on November 07, 2013, 01:00:10 PM
What happened to the OP?
Title: Re: DELETED
Post by: NotSure on November 07, 2013, 06:05:07 PM
What happened to the OP?

I'm pretty sure he's still here. He just thinned out some of his contributions after this post:

http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4673.0.msg30240#msg30240 (http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4673.0.msg30240#msg30240)

It's a real shame about that.
Title: Re: Favorite Way to Tie Trucker's Hitch
Post by: Hawk1832 on October 24, 2016, 03:02:44 PM
My apologies for bringing this dead horse back up, but I would greatly appreciate your esteemed opinions of the method these fellows use to tie a truckie hitch.  I have been through the entire thread and don't think this has been covered.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=73hHtb_if1g

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8aokTnQIpkA
Title: Re: Favorite Way to Tie Trucker's Hitch
Post by: Dan_Lehman on October 31, 2016, 11:23:35 PM
My apologies for bringing this dead horse back up, but I would greatly appreciate your esteemed opinions of the method these fellows use to tie a truckie hitch.  I have been through the entire thread and don't think this has been covered.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=73hHtb_if1g

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8aokTnQIpkA

Frankly, I've enough doubt about the surety of the particular
mid-line eye used by the method these two videos show
(sorry, I didn't discern a difference between them except
perhaps in the exact position of the anchoring working end
from the eye)
that I prefer to use a non-capsizable eye --e.g., with the
cases shown above, they could tie a full (twin-eye) bowline,
and maybe even gain a little lessening of frictional damage
at this sheave point (the haul line passing through two vs.
one eye)!?
I usually just tie a slip-knot of either an overhand or fig.8.

I also usually tie off the end to the rope and not to
the anchor.  Then, again, had the end been run up through
that rope-sheave a 2nd pass, one would have a sort of
versatackle mechanics & self-locking (which might prove
to be more of a tightening & loosening bother than it's worth).

--dl*
====
Title: Re: Favorite Way to Tie Trucker's Hitch
Post by: knot rigger on November 14, 2016, 01:16:08 AM
Hawk1832, thanks for reviving this thread, and thanks for the videos.

I'm a huge fan of your method of tying the truckers hitch.  It's TIB (tyeable in the bight) so it's possible to tye a series in a long rope to secure a load (as I've seen done on trucks in Sao Paulo).  And, it's incredibly easy to untie, as once de-tensioned, the "sheave" knot will fall apart with little effort, and the working end need not be taken back through the loop to untie.

The "sheave knot" is a Bell Ringer's Knot (ABoK #172) with an added nipping turn as in the fashion of an Awning Knot (ABoK #83) or a Rigger's Hitch (ABoK # 1735)

When I first encountered this knot I shared Dan Lehman's skepticism and fear of the "sheave" knot capsizing, but I've grown to trust it through experience.  This knot is used exclusively by Cirque du Soleil's tent technicians to support the side walls of their big top tents.  The side wall (and hence this hitch) must withstand high winds, and flogging due to wind gusts.  In the event of extreme weather, the tent walls must be able to be dropped swiftly to avoid catastrophic damage.  Any other "sheave" knot would jam, requiring crucial extra time to untie the (inevitably) jammed knot.  Not to mention extra time taken to run the working end back through the sheave loop.  While dropping the side walls of the Big Top for extreme weather is very rare,  the walls are taken down regularly for the purposes of moving the show. The speed and utility of this jamless, TIB, and exceedingly easy to untie one-handed hitch are matchless.

Knot have many names, and many stories behind names... The origin of the videos depicting this knot are intriguing and amusing to me, because among the circus tent technicians this version of this knot is called an "Australian Trucker's Hitch"

cheers
andy
Title: Re: Favorite Way to Tie Trucker's Hitch
Post by: KC on December 02, 2016, 12:31:27 PM
i've also been very skeptical of such 'loose' ties;
but have seen this on plenty of trucks and find the Cirque du Soleil's tent technicians reference very enlightening.
In both these we have possible rain swelling of nylon and wind vibrations testing the theories!
But, i also manufacture and use this knot differently..
.
Arborist call any such 3/1 pull config a Zrig, any pulley system etc. a jig, in our world Zrig can have adjustable Prusic instead of fixed position eye.
Have used this system for tiedowns, pulling stuck vehicles free from mud, lifting engines, pulling down massive trees some leaning in wrong direction and had to guide against their lean, pulling stuck transmission etc.  Also as a 3/1 pulling another or even a 5/1(=15/1), pre-tighten another larger line used for rigging for less drop /impact on line when takes load etc.  Have also pulled Trucker's Hitch with a 2 ton truck, to lift limbs from over screened enclosures over pools, skylights etc., where we couldn't lower and no one could get a crane in.  So used existing tree architecture as fixed boom and 2 ton truck pulling into 3/1 rig like this to make large lifts.  i always said the last direction to drop something is up!
.
one of Xarax's Noose w/HH's comes closest to what i found for my purposes and theories:
.
(http://mytreelessons.com/images/xarax_overhand_hh.png)
   A problem of the (two) loops based upon the slipped overhand knot, is the very sharp first curves of the free ends, and the ends of the bight.  An easy way to address this problem, is to form a nipping loop above the slipped overhand knot, and to pass the bight through it. Besides the fact that now the first curves are smoother, this possibility might be considered as an advantage of tying a slipped overhand loop - because it gives us the flexibility to beef it up that way, if, at any time after we have tied the simpler loop in the first place, we would decide that we should better need a more stable and stronger loop for our trucker s hitch.
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i had switched from Butterfly to this somewhere along the way, as found Bfly sometimes hard to untie after pulling w/truck, and not best angle of pull on eye.
i find this to be also simply a Bfly with unlinked rings;
another viewable mechanic is can see as a Zeppelin with one side reversed to meet/ form eye.
For me this is easier like Zepp untie, than Bfly, less picking the lock.
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Bfly is very good knot use for many things, even jug sling for me etc. but think eye should pull perpendicular if at all.
i first did this as an upgrade to noose instead of Bfly in Trucker's and also pinata hanging, simply thru the HH around eye as fix w/o teardown.
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Eventually evolved to fortifying the highest loading side; i guess as Xarax suggests.
Now simply a fig.10 noose w/HH construction; but still i think Bfly and Zepp forms also discernible.
Unties easier than Bfly i think, easier to adjust eye, more correct proper pull angle on eye.
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(http://mytreelessons.com/images/z10-truckers-hitch-eye.png)
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Going up over a load and back down with 3/1 is a 6/1 potential less the frictions, angles.
i don't look at friction as foe, but rather buffer.
Harder to take line 'purchase' thru friction buffer, but then once you have purchase friction buffer also helps hold it.
So, if send momentary peak force thru line, that can't really hold, might trick more purchase that frictions holds for you.
2 ways to send peak force 'wave' thru line is to impact bodyWeight or snatch hard with effort.
The faster the better; 2 matching trucks , 1 that weighs half as much going 2x as fast has 2x the force, so hit into jig hard and confidentally!
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Also, sharply bending line to sweat or swig more purchase, then let frictions help hold.
Should then look at jig side might be 2x tension of offside, so stretch and vibrate line to equalize line on both sides of load, and pull jig again!
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IF pull end of jig, have 3xEffort potential up to bodyweight hang.  Can add 3xEffort to that by pulling other anchor.
But if put that same pull inside system at rite point get 4xEffort +3xBodyWeight, can impact with either/both.
Impact hits can come at same time to hit hardest against load, or sequentially to get something moving and keep moving etc.
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If really want to tighten for tiedown, make ropes iron bar tight by above methods.  Then make shallow bends.  The tighter the line, the more line resists bend; the more leveraged return in line tension!
Title: Re: Favorite Way to Tie Trucker's Hitch
Post by: Hawk1832 on December 09, 2016, 02:37:13 PM
THanks for your interesting responses about these videos.  THe reference to the circus technicians use of these knots was fascinating.

I once saw on an arborist site a photo of a truckers hitch with a loop like KC's Z10 example without the HH.  THe fellow then pulled the working end through the loop to form a second loop and did that again to form a third loop.  CAn someone tell me what effect this would have on the mechanical advantge.
Title: Re: Favorite Way to Tie Trucker's Hitch
Post by: KC on December 15, 2016, 10:29:10 AM
Same pattern of mechanical pulls, change in loop is kinda like change in color..
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The 3:1  mechanical advantage; is in the 3 legs of line pulling on one side of 'jig',
>>feeding to 1 line of output pull to equal/opposite side of jig.
The loop variation is just a different way to make the ring position for the rope to seat in.
Same as if we didn't make any knot and put a  Prusik cord(making jig adjustable) in place instead.
This doesn't change the 3:1 architecture/mechanic; only the loop type chosen in the structure for the same output mechanic.
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'z10' structure can also be seen as a Butterfly with unlinked rings, and 1 side fortified to fig.10 base.
Title: Re: Favorite Way to Tie Trucker's Hitch
Post by: Hawk1832 on December 17, 2016, 03:32:13 PM
Now I get it. Thanks KC.