International Guild of Knot Tyers Forum

General => Chit Chat => Topic started by: Phil_The_Rope on December 25, 2009, 03:35:07 PM

Title: Ho Ho Ho ... anybody recognise this?
Post by: Phil_The_Rope on December 25, 2009, 03:35:07 PM
Festive greetings to all my knotty friends!

I received a card from an old friend, and there was a knot appearing above a "St. Piran Flag".
My friend mentions, in her Xmas message, the "unidentifiable" knot. Can anyone help me identify what this is?

Many thanks!

Phil The Rope

Title: When is a knot not a knot ? ?
Post by: DerekSmith on December 26, 2009, 01:05:16 PM
Hi Phil,

I hope that you are having a good Christmas.  One of the dogs got me up early needing a pee, so as the rest of the house slumbers in post prandial torpor I thought I might check to see if any other addicts have checked in - you seem to be the only one.

I do not recognise the 'knot', other than perhaps it is a slipped chain used to tidy up slack, finished with a couple of turns and a tuck.  It is hard to determine anything else, especially in laid rope and without sight of an end.

Not much of a guess, but the challenge does highlight the issue which we as knotters still have to address - 'When is a knot not a knot ? ' and the fact that our language of knots is in disarray, being nothing more than a hotchpotch of terms aggregated from many trades, many nations and many 'generations'.

One of the major achievements of the various Trades Guilds has been to standardise and unify the terminology within those trades, and to create a framework within which development could flourish and innovations, improvements and understanding could be disseminated throughout and even between those respective Guilds.  This is perhaps one of the most important contributions a Guild can bring to its field of expertise.  In this important aspect, we are failing to live up to the grandiose title of GUILD that we have given ourselves.  Perhaps this is at the heart of why so many are disappointed when they look into the Guild and find nothing more than an International Hobby Group of Knot Tyers, for in truth, that is what we are.

Perhaps we should consider changing the name to prevent confusion and future disappointment...

Or perhaps we might consider tackling some of the tasks that fall to a true Guild and start living up to our chosen name ?

The IGKT came late into the game.  In fact, by the time the IGKT was formed, the power of the Guilds was long gone and there was little chance of collecting the wealth needed to fund an active Guild heart.  Any Guild like activity today will have to be achieved through the voluntary donation of effort from Guild members.  However, set against this is the fact that we truly are International and today we have the power of the Internet through which we have the opportunity of becoming a very modern Guild.

As a modern Guild, there are many things we can achieve for our field - if only we set out our stall to identify these goals and create the groups within which volunteers can work and contribute -

Today the Guild is struggling to find a Merchandising Secretary - we should ask why ?  Perhaps it is because Guild members don't need a Guild shop ?

Perhaps the measure of what is wanted will be gauged by the level of volunteer effort ?  Perhaps the best role of the Council would be to facilitate and promote the opportunities for participation, then sit back and see where the interest flows.

Anyway, having badly hijacked this thread, back to the point -

We really really need to resolve our terminology - what is a knot - what is a combination of knots to be called - what is not a knot etc. etc.

Perhaps for 2010 we should start a new Board - Knot Terminology Standardisation. - to identify, define and resolve knot terminology, to achieve a unified standard to be adopted and promoted by the Guild.

Any takers ? ?

Derek
Title: Re: Ho Ho Ho ... anybody recognise this?
Post by: Phil_The_Rope on December 26, 2009, 01:38:05 PM
Hi Derek,

Thanks for that!

"Hijack a thread"? Never been know on the forum before! No, I don't think you've hijacked it actually.

Being a "non-practical" knotty person, I must confess the "knot" looks nothing more than a coil to take up some slack as you say.

You make some intersting observations, and the Council, our new secretary Barry in particular, is trying to address some of these points, but it's a slow process unforunately.

Yes, we've had a fabulous Christmas in the Cook household, and Murphy the cat is having a particularly good time because there's turkey around!

Hope you're having a great time too, and best wishes to you and the rest of the gang for 2010.

Phil
Title: Re: Ho Ho Ho ... anybody recognise this?
Post by: squarerigger on December 26, 2009, 08:47:31 PM
Hi Derek and Phil,

Derek - the idea of having standardized names for knots is long overdue - perhaps too long, because it seems to me we are having new names for the same knot invented even today, particularly in the realm of decorative knots.  Of course, that begs the question of what is a decorative knot, other than one that is used for decoration, which of course, is self-explanatory.  This re-naming enables the use of any and many new names for existing knots, depending on the artist's thinking to distinguish their own creations.  This re-naming of existing knots also enables the newer people in knotting to establish a "place" for themselves and to make a statement about their efforts.  Practical knots seem to have less of this type of self-establishment and yet have suffered for many years with differing names for the same completed structure.

Therein may lie the solution, if indeed a solution were needed, of naming structures that go to make up a knot instead of naming the individual knots.  You had started an effort through a Wiki page, Charles Warner tried with a book that focuses on structure instead of names (although even he still had to use names to identify knots), Frank Brown had a go and there have been other valiant and perhaps even self-serving attempts, the already-mentioned being excluded from this latter category of course.  I agree that a common lexicon is needed and it seems to me that the IGKT is one place where this could occur.  However, the IGKT is not one place, but many individual places in the homes and practices of the knotting fraternity.  If the IGKT were one body, like the Metropolitan Police Authority or the Federal Aviation Authority or the Vatican, it might be a straightforward matter to enable such a naming convention to exist.  The power or ability to make that happen resides within the membership - if the IGKT has members who have come together for lofty purposes, there needs to be a structure set in place to meet those purposes as you have suggested.  It can come into being by fiat from the Council, or by agreement and demand of the members.  Because you are a member, it sounds like you are making a formal proposal to establish a naming convention and, if so, could I ask, do you have members who will stand with you to bring that about and do you have a naming convention to discuss?

I, as a Council member, only have the ability to bring to the table what the members bring to us, whether it is something with which I agree or not.  If I agree with it, I will be happy to champion it by whatever means are at my disposal.  I agree that a naming convention for the parts of knots, whatever a knot may be, is needed to regularize the conventions and to enable going forward with an education process.  That education process can then start out on the right foot of defining the various methods for bringing that material into the public's hands.  Alternately, we could continue to name things according to our varied and imaginative schema and let the chips fall where they may.  This thought (above) is incomplete here and requires more definition and exploration, so I am unwilling to devote time to something that our world-wide members do not collectively require or feel is necessary.  Who is with you and how would you anticipate moving forward?  What is your proposal, if indeed you are suggesting a proposal, and what is the substance of it?  I am interested in hearing something that we can discuss and move forward on without simply issuing a decree like the feudal barons and lords of old, when knights were bold and Guilds could exist by secret handshake and bald statements of what should be.

Phil - many thanks for elevating the Cornish flag into a position of prominence - their language and culture has stood too long in the shadow of other more formal entities.  I look forward to hearing more from you!  Happy New Year to one and all - long may the knots tie us together! :-*

Lindsey
Title: Re: Ho Ho Ho ... anybody recognise this?
Post by: Phil_The_Rope on December 28, 2009, 01:08:43 PM
Hi again.

Lindsey, I didn't realise the "St. Piran" flag was Cornish, although it makes sense - a dear friend of mine suffered very ill health, nearly lost her eyesight and bit the bullet, retired, and moved to Cornwall. She's not looked back, and is enjoying a healthy retirement. Funny how, now and again, folks like my friend remember my interest in knotting and throw something like this into the ring. It must happen to so many of us, which is nice when it happens - generally (I find anyway) people find our interest somewhat amusing and don't take it quite as seriously as we'd like.

Naming structures - boy, that'll get some debate going! I guess I'm fortunate (?) in that my interest lies in decorative knotting, because it is probably more important to get our facts right when dealing with the practical stuff. I've always said that if one of my bell ropes falls apart, at least it won't result in someone falling off a mountain! If it does, the user should have been committed to an institution long before using a bell rope for climbing! One of the problems is (just like this knot) is that we only have a photo to start from?

How the Guild would go about something like this is a challenge in itself. Perhaps we should look at Derek's bullet list first, some of which I know has been debated before? The question of volunteers is a perennial problem - we cannot condemn folks for not volunteering, but the forum is perhaps the best place to guage interest?

With regards to Guild members not needing a Guild shop - perhaps this is true, as the internet (Amazon et al) makes it so easy to find material, be that books, videos or whatever. I understand we have had some enquiries from members thinking about taking over as Supplies Secretary"?

I suspect that Derek's suggestion of naming ourselves "International Hobby Group of Knot Tyers" may not be too far off the mark at present.

Enough waffle from me ...

Regards,

Phil

Title: Re: Ho Ho Ho ... anybody recognise this?
Post by: Sweeney on December 28, 2009, 08:10:12 PM
Having read this thread I have this strong sense of deja vu again. The Ashley Index project foundered as so many things do because volunteers lose interest - we have to live with that. But the notion of cross referencing every known knot name back to its other names solves a lot of problems. To take a simple example how many people are familiar with the reef or square knot? Probably the best known knot of all yet it has 2 names and there will be people who only recognise one or the other. Index these and any other names and all you need is a name - any name - to stand a good chance of locating the actual knot itself. I am not suggesting restarting the index project but I'm afraid that I cannot see an easier way to start and once a chunk of knots exists in a database then it can be extended with whatever information one wishes to add. It's just the tedious task of getting over the first hurdle. I don't think any other way of doing this would be less tedious or require less effort unfortunately.

Barry
Title: Re: Ho Ho Ho ... anybody recognise this?
Post by: KenY on December 29, 2009, 01:08:54 PM
Dear Phil,
Happy New Year to you and the other readers.

The rope in the photo you post,has only been tucked out of the way,and not by a seaman. As to its name; a few generations of boatswains would have had a name for it, but not one that could be repeated in mother's parlour. The offical name see RN Seamanship Manual 1951 vol ii under " Hanging Judas ".

As to Hi Jacking threads, it takes more control not to answer some of the things that are posted on our forum, than it does to post some of the tosh we have to read.

Change of knot names and the name of the guild. why waste time on issues like that. The forum is just the tip of our iceberg, we have many more members who are busy tying knots and getting on with their lives: Lindsey Bravo Zulu another good KM.

So instead of re-inventing the wheel, let's use your/our abundant energies,to recruit new and younger members into our guild, so that knot tying does not die with us.
Yours Aye   Ken.



Title: Re: Ho Ho Ho ... anybody recognise this?
Post by: DerekSmith on December 29, 2009, 04:09:27 PM

As to Hi Jacking threads, it takes more control not to answer some of the things that are posted on our forum, than it does to post some of the tosh we have to read.

Change of knot names and the name of the guild. why waste time on issues like that. The forum is just the tip of our iceberg, we have many more members who are busy tying knots and getting on with their lives: Lindsey Bravo Zulu another good KM.

So instead of re-inventing the wheel, let's use your/our abundant energies,to recruit new and younger members into our guild, so that knot tying does not die with us.
Yours Aye   Ken.

@Ken,

At the last count, there were 10,450 posts on this forum, and including the one above, nine of them were yours - this is an awesome example of self control in not posting tosh.

In contrast, about 8% of those posts are mine, so I guess that I must be responsible for a fair amount of the tosh you have had to endure.  If I am, I suppose I should apologise for wasting so much of your time -  but don't hold your breath.  Were it not for the huge contribution of thought and time by the majority of contributors (tosh and all), this forum would be populated by the nine well structured and tosh free posts from your good self - and bugger all else.

Personally, I enjoy reading other peoples tosh (AKA opinions), I am pretty sure that should you slip one day and post some tosh of your own, I and many others might even enjoy that as well.  So - bring on the tosh and Bah-humug to the anti tosh'ers.

As for the rest of your post, indeed, we have many members who never access or perhaps even know about this Forum (a bit like most of the Council members) and indeed, all credit to our Editors for maintaining the only cohesive communication channel open to us all - and what a great channel it is.

But should it be our only channel?  I applaud your call to recruit new and younger members, but have you not realised that those self same younger members communicate almost exclusively through our new connected digital world of Fora and Facebook, with a heavy dose of Twitter...  While knotting itself may take place in the physical world, our new breed of knotters will expect to find the story and the library of knots here on the internet.  They will expect to shop for all things knotty here, on the internet.  And they will expect to find future contacts and knotty friends here, on the internet.

As for the language of knots, they will find it through their search engines - Google and its derivatives - and as for Tosh - well, just sign up for a twitter account and soak up a few of the billions of 'Twits' that today's youth output - if you do not learn to tolerate a large helping of Tosh, then the world of our future is sadly no place for you.

If knots are to survive, then they (and their keepers) must evolve to enjoy a large dollop of Tosh - Oh, and Twits.

Derek
Title: Re: Ho Ho Ho ... anybody recognise this?
Post by: Son of Liberty on December 30, 2009, 02:44:18 AM

So instead of re-inventing the wheel, let's use your/our abundant energies,to recruit new and younger members into our guild, so that knot tying does not die with us.
Yours Aye   Ken.





I?m fairly young!

I know getting the youth involved is always a big deal with organizations?and rightly so?so I thought I?d share a few thoughts.

In my personal experiences, very young children, such as Cub Scout age, are usually very easy to get interested in tying knots that seem exotic to them, such as the monkey fist.  The only problem is they may not be capable of comprehending certain things, and can lose interest quickly if not thoroughly engaged.

Of course, my area of expertise is the Boy Scout age.  I?ve had great success in teaching my troop their basic knots by encouraging competition.  Sometimes I?ll even race them in tying knots behind the back, or seeing who knows how to tie the most knots not in the scout book.  As for decorative knots, sometimes a simple lanyard hanging from my backpack can prompt a quick lesson for an inquisitive Scout.

I don?t know how involved the IGKT is with Scouting, but it is a huge market for knot-tyers.  Maybe the Guild could increase their involvement by hosting a national competition between scouting youth?

As for keeping them involved, I think this forum is great.  I have to admit, once I joined this forum I devoted more and more time to tying and learning new knots.

--Son of Liberty
Title: Re: Ho Ho Ho ... anybody recognise this?
Post by: dewildeman on December 30, 2009, 03:58:54 AM
The rope in the photo you post,has only been tucked out of the way,and not by a seaman. As to its name; a few generations of boatswains would have had a name for it, but not one that could be repeated in mother's parlour. The offical name see RN Seamanship Manual 1951 vol ii under " Hanging Judas ".

In my term as a Boy Scout leader the Troop had 4 brothers come up through the ranks.  The first 2 of the Hurley brothers were about a year apart in age and in the Troop at the same time.  They were also somewhat "knot challanged".  When working on knots they would bring their work up for inspection, usually the work had nothing in common with the knot they were supposed to be working on.  At one meeting one of the leaders exclaimed "That's not a bowline, that's a Hurley Hitch!" and the term is still being used today when a Scout in our Troop tyes an unrecognizible mess

BTW all 4 Hurley's are Eagle Scouts and have grown up to be fine young men, and can even tye knots.
Title: Re: Ho Ho Ho ... anybody recognise this?
Post by: DerekSmith on December 30, 2009, 08:22:34 AM
There you have it then Phil - it is official - it is the 'Hurley Hitch' (or one of its lesser known variants).

Thanks dewildeman

I've not heard of Kens 'Hanging Judas', nor do I have access to the book he references "The offical (sic) name see RN Seamanship Manual 1951 vol ii " but I guess they are stable mates.

----------------------------------------------------------------

The Hurley Hitch - 'a knot construction of variable and generally undefined and unrecognisable form, capable of performing a rudimentary holding function but liable to decompose or form intractable jams under load'.

----------------------------------------------------------------
Derek
Title: Re: Ho Ho Ho ... anybody recognise this?
Post by: Sweeney on December 30, 2009, 12:41:19 PM
Derek

I for one am grateful to you for adding a definition for the "Hurley Hitch".  I have struggled for a while to think of names for the various tangles of cord which my 5 year old grandson attaches around the house and insists that I tell him the name of the "knot" he has constructed.  Occasionally he does tie a recognisable knot (eg a round turn and 2 half hitches) quite by acccident - no doubt some useful knots were discovered this way! And his skill level has now increased to the extent that he can tie a dragonfly on a jig whilst watching the television over his shoulder. Perhaps what we need is simple decorative knots on children's television occasionally?

Barry
Title: Re: Ho Ho Ho ... anybody recognise this?
Post by: KenY on December 30, 2009, 01:43:50 PM
Derek,

Thank you for your reply, and I never even had to hold my breath. What does the sign in the zoo say ? DON'T POKE THE BEAR.

As I said before when I wrote to you privately, your skills and abilities need to be inharness. If you were to contact the IGKT council formaly I am sure they would welcome to have a link with Facebook and Twitter, to keep them up to date. The Solent Branch has a young member and I have a young daughter so I am sware of what that generation can do, not to mention chewing gum and sending a text at the same time. I am sure the IGKT will not pay the same as Brighton Council who have a full time " Twitter " Guru, but I am sure they would wecome feed back and general information on what is going on on the net, have you offererd you services formaly yet ?  If I was still on the IGKT Council I would welcome it.

Now for some Knotty talk other names for " Hanging Judas " are deadmen and Irish pendants.

Yours Aye

Ken.
Title: Re: Ho Ho Ho ... anybody recognise this?
Post by: DerekSmith on December 30, 2009, 06:33:42 PM

 What does the sign in the zoo say ? DON'T POKE THE BEAR.

Yours Aye

Ken.

What the sign should say is -- IF YOU THINK POKING THE BEAR IS BAD, JUST TRY POKING THE GUY WITH THE HONEY CART...

It is likely he has seen enough .... for one day, and tends to have given considerable thought as to what a turd should be called.

And THAT is why he likes to get the names for other little worrisome issues sorted out as well.

He also has a saying - 'Clear it up from the edges and the wife might just let you back in the house after work'
and another one - 'When working in the Elephant pen - be bold and use a BIG shovel'

Derek
Title: Re: Ho Ho Ho ... anybody recognise this?
Post by: skyout on December 30, 2009, 07:01:54 PM
With the economy the way it is, at least his work is always picking up.  :D

Title: Re: Ho Ho Ho ... anybody recognise this?
Post by: DerekSmith on December 30, 2009, 11:40:56 PM
Yo Rick,

The old ones are the best -- LOL
Title: Re: Ho Ho Ho ... anybody recognise this?
Post by: dewildeman on January 02, 2010, 04:07:27 AM
On a lighter note,

Derek, thank you for definition for the "Hurley Hitch".  I'll have to share it with them.  Perhaps the IGKT will recognize it an grant a cerificate to the family honoring them for the invention of a new knot!   ;D
Title: Re: Ho Ho Ho ... anybody recognise this?
Post by: DerekSmith on January 02, 2010, 01:59:24 PM
Great idea dewildeman,

But to propose such an award would require real names to be used - would you be in agreement to this?  Perhaps to get the ball rolling, I could send in a proposed article to KM (or you could), giving the background and proposing an award, then take it from there.

How do you feel like becoming a real person?

Derek
Title: Re: Ho Ho Ho ... anybody recognise this?
Post by: DerekSmith on January 02, 2010, 08:31:31 PM
snip...

  Because you are a member, it sounds like you are making a formal proposal to establish a naming convention and, if so, could I ask, do you have members who will stand with you to bring that about and do you have a naming convention to discuss?
snip...

Lindsey


In a word - NO.

As both you and Barry have pointed out, this is a standing problem that many have tried repeatedly to crack, yet every time met with failure.

Perhaps before jumping onto the merry-go-round one more time it might be prudent to to see if any lessons can be learnt from from previous attempts.  Indeed, is it even possible to develop anything significant through the medium of a forum?  I think that we have good evidence from AgentSmith's massive thread on bowlines, that in some circumstances a forum can contribute to a valuable conclusion.  But of course, in that case there was a clear single person management and decision system.  Take away the controlling force of an assigned 'manager' and the forum serves as little more than an opinion swapping shop.

Decisions cannot be made, especially when the 'Status quo' is threatened or a new idea threatens a bad case of 'NIH'

A wiki is not much better.  Wikipedia only arrives at seeming conclusions because of brute force - the content of Wikipedia is not right because it is the common voice, it is just the voice of the one that won.  However, Dfred et al. have done an excellent job over the past few years of compiling a valuable if occasionally erroneous (in my opinion) source of knotting information.

Perhaps we would have greater success if we ran the discussion on the forum, then asked Dfred to extract the salient conclusions into Wikepedia ? ?

For complex topics with several sub aspects a forum is not an ideal format because aspects can be lost in the long linear structure of a forum thread.  One tool that might help would be to add the 'Tags' mod available to SMF (the utility which runs our forum) http://custom.simplemachines.org/mods/index.php?mod=579 (http://custom.simplemachines.org/mods/index.php?mod=579)  -  would this be permitted ?

Perhaps in 2010 we might find a way to make progress on these 'hard' problems.

Derek
Title: Re: Ho Ho Ho ... anybody recognise this?
Post by: dewildeman on January 03, 2010, 05:15:18 AM
Great idea dewildeman,

But to propose such an award would require real names to be used - would you be in agreement to this?  Perhaps to get the ball rolling, I could send in a proposed article to KM (or you could), giving the background and proposing an award, then take it from there.

How do you feel like becoming a real person?

Derek

The proposal was tongue-in-cheek and I don't think there was much expectation of an award.  But I do appreciate the definition for the "Hurley Hitch".

I have been a real person for over 55 years, as my mother and several members here can verify.
Title: Re: Ho Ho Ho ... anybody recognise this?
Post by: DerekSmith on January 03, 2010, 10:25:51 AM


The proposal was tongue-in-cheek and I don't think there was much expectation of an award.  But I do appreciate the definition for the "Hurley Hitch".

I have been a real person for over 55 years, as my mother and several members here can verify.

Being in possession of a corporeal self takes you well over half way to 'coming out' knotologically speaking, and having over 55 years of experience under your belt should have armed you with plenty of experiences to share.  I look forward to the real dewildeman introducing him/her self in 2010.

As for the 'Hurley Hitch'.  I was being quite serious, and I hope that the Council see fit to grant this award, because for me, it is more than just about giving another name to an amorphous tangle.

There are some people in this world who have excellent spatial perception - they just look at a knot and 'see' where and how the cord flows.  But there are also those for whom the humble knot is a real challenge - to be mastered only by hard work and perseverance.  These are the folk who have had to really want to master knots and work hard to get there, and that diligence deserves recognition.

Naming the category of tangles is only the humorous side.  I would hope that the Council can be convinced to go further and create the Hurley Hitch Award, in honour of those who stick at it with perseverance to master the skill of knotting.  A name and an award which symbolises both the fun and the skill of knotting should be worth a place in 2010.

Lets hope our Council share the feelings.

Derek

Title: Re: Ho Ho Ho ... anybody recognise this?
Post by: WebAdmin on January 14, 2010, 02:02:25 PM
snip...

For complex topics with several sub aspects a forum is not an ideal format because aspects can be lost in the long linear structure of a forum thread.  One tool that might help would be to add the 'Tags' mod available to SMF (the utility which runs our forum) http://custom.simplemachines.org/mods/index.php?mod=579 (http://custom.simplemachines.org/mods/index.php?mod=579)  -  would this be permitted ?
...
Derek

Hi Derek,

Sorry to have taken so long to catch up on this comment, but I wanted to double check with Mel: Simple Machines Forums don't yet have a tags facility.  It is hoped it may be included in the long-awaited SM2 release, but until that materialises, Mel doesn't know for sure.  But once the forum is upgraded, she plans to look into it somehow.

Regards
Glenys
Title: Re: Ho Ho Ho ... anybody recognise this?
Post by: DerekSmith on January 14, 2010, 07:27:38 PM
Hi Glenys

On the SM Forum, there is a post which links to the available Tags Mod that is stated as being compatible with 1.1.11

see http://custom.simplemachines.org/mods/index.php?mod=579 (http://custom.simplemachines.org/mods/index.php?mod=579)

Derek
Title: Re: Ho Ho Ho ... anybody recognise this?
Post by: sharky on January 18, 2010, 12:35:58 PM
I recognize that knot...that would be the "Johnny Walker" Knot (lol) ;D